Mini 1601: B_E's Mind Mafia ABANDIFIED

[Riddleton]

I assume it is some kind of inside joke.

[Riddleton]

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

[Riddleton]

Random votes aren't truly random. Unless you use this site....
http://www.random.org/
... you likely selected a person.

If you want to be accurate, yes. I interpreted that post as "I have reason to believe he is scum" rather than "I'm (pseudo)random voting X"

[Riddleton]

So you're saying right now "If I look really scummy it's because I'm actually town". Right.

VOTE: Csareo

[Riddleton]

Not RVS vote.

[Riddleton]

Your post was awful. Why would a townsperson come along D1 and say "Oh, by the way I look really scummy. But don't vote me"

[Riddleton]

My town meta looks scummy to "new" players.

I am not a new player. I've likely being playing mafia longer than you have. I just don't like your playstyle.

[Riddleton]

I have trouble believing that you already know my playstyle :/

You said that you "often will play scum/stupid to stir reactions out of people.".
I'm not against people having their own quirks -- I have them too -- but I think that particular "strategy" is detrimental to the town. I don't like that. I think that's only going to make you more likely to get lynched and less likely to get any information. But each to their own.

[Riddleton]

@riddleton - How do you know you "likely" played more games than me? That seems like a weird thing to infer.

I probably have. I'm not the most experienced here, but I've been playing since 2011 so I'm not a "newbie" either.

[Riddleton]

so ur a grammer nazi?!

[Riddleton]

FoS: Ythill. I don't like the sudden change in stance. Especially after Csareo made the post before you made yours.

[Riddleton]

I think Csareo's Random Wagon post was stupid.

[Riddleton]

Csareo's Wagon post: #35
Your comments/reads: #58

You considered him to be town but only slightly then, after he made the 'random wagon' post.
Later on you say it's scum and vote him. (#70) Why the sudden change in stance?

[Riddleton]

Hence FoS because I find it a bit strange; that's all.

[Riddleton]

I never was implying you thought Heph was town.

[Riddleton]

That post was directed at Ythill

[Riddleton]

I'll rephrase:

@

YTHILL

Csareo's Wagon post: #35
Your [YTHILL] comments/reads: #58

You considered him [CSAREO] to be town but only slightly then, after he [CSAREO] made the 'random wagon' post.
Later on you say it's scum and vote him.[CSAREO] (#70) Why the sudden change in stance?

[Riddleton]

I never was implying you [CSAREO] thought Heph was town.

[Riddleton]

That post [POST #83] was directed at Ythill

[Riddleton]

I apologise for any confusion that the above posts may have caused. I'll use '@' from now on; or other means of showing whom the intended recipient of my posts are.

[Riddleton]

@TSO: I dislike both 1 & 2.

[Riddleton]

@TSO: Yes, I am.

[Riddleton]

How is #7 a free pass? I was saying I merely thought it was some kind of inside meta thing or joke I did not understand. For me to give you a free pass, I'd have to understand what you were saying in the first place

[Riddleton]

@TSO: I don't have any opinion on that post. do not see it as a tell either way.

[Riddleton]

Reason being there's a reason he could post that as both town or scum.

[Riddleton]

It's WIFOM as Ythill said. If he was town, it'd be a legit question, otherwise it'd be feigning ignorance. I don't see it as a tell as I would prefer to rely on posts that are more concrete.

[Riddleton]

#121- How come daytalk speculation is WIFOM? I am new to this site. I haven't been on mafiascum for 7 years like you have. Is it default in all games, standard, ect.? I don't know how things work here. Asking these questions is absolutely essential for catching scum.

Most speculations of any sort (night kills, daytalk etc) are WIFOM. It's my personal opinion in that I hate WIFOM. It accomplishes nothing and just serves to distract people. I consider it a scum tactic most of the time.

[Riddleton]

I still prefer Csareo as a lynch today.

[Riddleton]

Your defenses have been as flip floppy as Ythill's.

How so? Can you link me to any posts that you think are suspicious?

[Riddleton]

I never once said you were town.

[Riddleton]

> Z:\home\Riddleton ~$: Proceed. To. Write. Emotional. Response.

[Riddleton]

See? I can joke too.

[Riddleton]

Csareo

: Please don't make any assumptions about my meta as town or scum. If you think I'm scum please post some actual reasoning behind it and not some bullshit based on how "emotional" I am.

[Riddleton]

99% of the time, meta is meaningless. A lot of people like to change their meta to not be caught. I don't do that, but you guys have only seen me play about 5 games here on MS (only 2 finished), so meta is not the tool to use to catch me should I hypothetically be scum.

I'm saying this should you (Csareo) be town (I doubt it). In-game evidence is much more concrete than meta evidence.

[Riddleton]

Csareo still hasn't explained his vote against me. He first said he thought my "defences were flip-flopping" (#161) but later switched his mind and said it was a policy vote. Please answer my question in #162. I asked you why you thought my defences were bad, and why "I've changed my mind through behaviour analysis".

I can see you're trying to start a wagon against me, but for the love of god try harder. Please? <3

[Riddleton]

Welcome,

Elias

.

[Riddleton]

@mod: There are currently 3 votes for me. Ythill has voted for me too

Oh sorry
-BE

[Riddleton]

I'm not 100% convinced of Csareo as scum and not just bad town...but he has lied and exhibited other examples of anti-town behavior.

I considered him being VI but it just doesn't make sense with some of the things he's said, in that he implies a lot of previous off-site experience in #14, as well as some of his lying and manipulation as you said. I'm not as inflexible to suggest I'm only out for Csareo's blood; but I can't see any other viable scum candidates at the moment. It would make sense for Csareo to be scum.

[Riddleton]

Dont like 110 from Heph. Otherwise okay with his posts. Appears to be hunting.

I think 110 is fine. I see it as sarcastic.

[Riddleton]

Would also be down for a Dybeck wagon after he returns, see if he's got anything useful to say (besides ironically asking for something useful from ABR).

I, too, would like to hear more of dbybeck's and ABR's thoughts.

Leaning town on T S O. Asking the right questions and hunting.

I town read TSO as well. I

would

like him to make a vote though.

[Riddleton]

I'm prettt confidebt Elais is town. Not as convinced with Ythill, though.

[Riddleton]

TSO

, thoughts on Ythill?

[Riddleton]

I agree that Ythill seems a bit mixed. Some posts of his look very townie but others seem dubious. I don't like that he is holding information back either. Unless it's a top secret covert FBI-style plan, I think you should share. More knowledge is helpful for the town.

I townread Elias, by the way. I agree with a lot of his thoughts and insights in #196.

[Riddleton]

On the bright side, I can answer Elias' questions once this situation dissolves.

Could you not answer them now?

[Riddleton]

3 scum members would be standard among 13 players. I would expect there to be 3 scum.

[Riddleton]

Csareo + Ythill (maybe) + someone else.

[Riddleton]

Csareo + Ythill (maybe) + someone else.

Do you really think Csareo and Ythill are partners?

And Ythill is performing some kind of strange convoluted bus where he pretends to withhold information he doesn't have, draws flak for it, then just gives up on it?

I don't agree with this assumption at all.

I think Csareo and Ythill could be partners, yes. I have a hard time seeing some of his posts from a townie perspective. I'll write up more of a case on him later if you want, but I would still prefer the Csareo lynch today.

[Riddleton]

Do scum really do this? I can;t imagine this kind of hardbussing being off-the-cuff. If they do, and Csareo flips scum, then I'm going to be looking at the people who drove this wagon from the start.

The main reason I'm behind this is because he's just obviously scum. Scum found, in my opinion. The lack of replies from him solidifies that. I want to get him lynched today as he is our main lead. I think anyone can agree with me there.

Do you think I am suspicious for wanting to lynch Csareo?

[Riddleton]

To whom are you referring to there,

Beast

. I find it a little ambigious.

[Riddleton]

The "three active scum" theory is possible but weak. I'd wager at least one is a lurker.

I agree that one is perhaps a lurker. I highly doubt that two of them are lurking.

[Riddleton]

Not really tryna go into D2 with three giant question marks. Although to be honest I suspect that at least one of them will request replacement...and I'm starting to think we may never get a full 13 players in here.

Eh, well there's lurkers in every game. They'll be replaced soon enough if they don't post though.

[Riddleton]

1. We're not in RVS anymore.
2. You've been replaced, as you said. Sorry.

[Riddleton]

I think csareo and riddleton are partners, willing to test this by lynching csareo

INTENT TO LYNCH

I'm still waiting for that case against me you said you were going to do like 200 posts ago

[Riddleton]

IIOA?

[Riddleton]

Please claim Csareo

[Riddleton]

someone please lynch him

[Riddleton]

At the moment I'm scumreading Csareo and Ythill.
Nullreading Aegor
Townreading everyone else

[Riddleton]

including inactives? such as dybeck/PM?

Nope, I'm only including people who are playing this game. All 5 of us.

[Riddleton]

My problem is that everyone seems to think Csareo is a guaranteed scumflip. I don't.

And I apologise for my annoyance; maybe if you'd help me out a bit more you wouldn't see it.

Nothing's guaranteed but I'm pretty confident in it. The fact he says he'll claim a

role

but only says VT irritates me to no end. Finally, he's not posted at all since we accused him and still posted in other games. I find it more of a "scummy silence" rather than lack of interest.

[Riddleton]

[Riddleton]

What's the current VC?

[Riddleton]

Too many replacements :/

[Riddleton]

I'm fine for a Kid A wagon as long as it isn't a lynch yet. He needs to post more (like most people. :/)

VOTE: Kid A

[Riddleton]

Skimmed. Concur on the scum wall, beast.

@TSO:

I hope you're not counting my vote as purely pressure. I've got no problem lynching a null D1.

Over a scum read?

[Riddleton]

Will comment on bybeck's wall later. still catching up on the last page

[Riddleton]

I took the liberty of highlighting Dybeck's wall post colour coded between red/green/lue. Red are points dybeck makes which suggests csareo is scum, green are points dybeck makes which suggests csareo is town. Blue are points that are either ambiguous or nulltells. What wonderful fence sitting.

...
The chief line of discussion seems to have been Csareo,

and I think I'm probably leaning scum on him too

- his defensiveness about how "my town game always looks scummy" - and his Post 19 where

he tried to deter voters by inferring that reading him as scum effectively marked you as a "new" player reeks of appealing to something that isn't logic

. He asked some

bogus questions of me in #47 that seemed more inflammatory than actual scumhunting

.

I suppose at that stage in the game he could be forgiven for stirring up a wagon out of nothing

. I've done it myself to see who hops on - but I'm not seeing any indication that this was the intention.

I'm also not a big fan of seeking mod clarifications in the thread

- it always smacks of trying to look like you're actively seeking information when in fact you're not bothering to do any analysis.

So his post where he asked about mafia having daytalk seemed a bit off. I still don't think I can see why we would even care whether mafia have daytalk

- unless they have other day abilities, they can talk all they like for all I care.

That said, he's posted a lot. A whole lot. And

that's just not something we tend to see from mafia on Day 1

.

I don't know how much experience he has, but it seems that so often the person that talks the most gets lynched when there's little else to go on, on Day 1.

A vanilla townie claim doesn't help his case much

-

but when you're a townie, you're a townie

- and there's not much to be done about it.

More instructive, though, is to look at the way he was wagoned. There was a mixture of people with genuine reasons and some votes that looked a lot like jumping a bandwagon. A few were early votes, but the one that bothers me the most was Ythill's. I'm not sure I can really put my finger on exactly what bothered me, but it just looked a little like he was seeking to build a gradual case after the vote count but before the wagon got to critical stage, when his vote would have been the more scutinised L-1 or L-2 votes.

...

----------------------------------------


Here are some points I would like to address individually:-

I don't know how much experience he has, but it seems that so often the person that talks the most gets lynched when there's little else to go on, on Day 1.

I don't like this point. This comes across to me as either "Csareo is going to be mislynched" or "We shouldn't lynch Csareo" (despite having scumtells on him). Most of your post there is fence sitting. You haven't picked a side, but rather leant neutral.

but when you're a townie, you're a townie

Does this point infer you think Csareo is town despite the scumtells you have listed above?

[Riddleton]

You really missed the main point of the post, though, which was that the actions in response to Csareo's wagon, which has been the main talking point of the day so far, give more away about who's scum than Csareo's actions themselves..

I'm aware. I wasn't addressing your case on Aegor in that post though.

I've never understood how ambivalence strikes so many people as a scumtell.

Town is not going to get anywhere if people are going to be ambivalent and such. You may as well no lynch if you

really

want to be neutral.
A player isn't going to be any use to town if all they do is contemplate everything but yet form no solid opinion.
I think most people should at least have some opinion of Csareo either way at this stage in the game.

Odds are, of course, like most Day 1s, we'll find the majority of the scum among the lurkers.

Yeah, that is true. There's usually at least one lurker scum during D1.

[Riddleton]

Also

TSO

, I'll do some reads now if you want. Who would you like me to comment on first?

[Riddleton]

I initially townread Elias but I'm starting to change my mind the more I look at things:-

Elias the thief

-Flipflops a lot. I don't particularly like this; particularly with saying people are not scummy but later changing your mind (especially Aegor).
-How can you think someone's "scummy as hell" when they have made 4 posts? I suspect him a little, too, but I wouldn't go all-out and say I'm 100% sure he's scum. How confident are you about Kid A?
-I stated before that I liked his #196. I see that as a genuine catchup post and townie.
-I like #311. Kid A's random post is definitely cause to halt the lynch. It's a sign that the day should continue for at least a little longer to resolve more loose ends.
Verdict: Maybe lean scum.

[Riddleton]

I'm getting my vote off Kid A as the bandwagon isn't going anywhere. Would be OK with either Aegor or Anen at the moment. I'll post reads on those later along with Ythill.

[Riddleton]

UNVOTE: Kid A

[Riddleton]

Spoiler:

Riddleton, 331 – is that all about your reads after 14 pages? That's not much.

Riddleton, 423 – maybe he's unsure, just like others. Csareo's gameplay was terrible and everyone thought he was scummy... but, with the possibility of a terrible townplay some were hesitant to lynch him. I think that's the crux of the problem..

Hello

Anen

.

Regarding "Is that all after 14 pages", you have to consider only around 6 people were active at the time including myself. I clarified when asked by TSO in that the list did not include people who were inactive as obviously I can't get solid reads on people with only 5 posts or less. The game

has

picked up in activity recently so I am putting out more of my reads as time progresses. Part of the delay is due to the fact it takes me a while to write down my reads, and the other part of the delay is just me being lazy.

I don't like your reply to my 423, however. If your defence for your predecessor's actions were "his play was terrible", then I really don't know what to say. I think most people can agree they thought Csareo was either VI or scum. Either of which is not helpful to the town.
Hence why some people were prepared to policy lynch even if he isn't actually scum. VIs destroy games in LyLo and generally are not helpful in the rest of the game either. I'm not a huge advocate of policy lynching but I can see why some would want to.

[Riddleton]

Ythill Read

-#165: it's not changing reads that is scummy, but rather changing reads quickly, without reason, or under pressure is scummy. Not a major scumtell but it is something.
-#187: sheeps Kid in voting me for "Game State" purposes. He has little to no case against me and finds Csareo scummier (see below)
-#187: Csareo is "scummy like WHOA" but I am voted instead. this was mentioned earlier and I agree this is scummy.
-Cryptically refers to the "Game state" in a lot of posts to hide or not disclose reasoning behind anything. Hiding your reasons because of "Game State" is a weak argument. Transparency is good for town. Yes, I understand Game State is probably referring to VCA, or something similar. I still don't think it's a very good reason to be secretive.
-Speaking of game state, has the "Game State" become that flexible to the point where anyone is free to vote Dybeck, a lurker or you in #245?
-I agree with TSO in that being so content with being voted is a little strange.
-Refuses to answer my question in #248. Even when the game state has miraculously 'changed' in #259, he still says he won't disclose more than he needs to.
-In #389 you say Beast's tunnelling is "never quite this bad". What do you mean by that? Can you link me to a game where has has tunnelled, but to a more minor extent? Because the post seems a bit vague otherwise.
-This was already pointed out as well, but I don't understand #420 either. No one ever mentioned a No Lynch. We're not going to, either. Someone is going to get lynched today.
-I don't like how you quantity scumtells and towntells in #479. This is more of a personal note though; it's null.
Verdict: Lean scum.

[Riddleton]

Riddle picked up more scumtells ... and trying to make copying beast seem like his own work.

I don't get that. Where did I imply my posts were solely my own work? If you're referring to #423, I did that to highlight his varied opinions of Csareo; to elaborate on what Beast had already written.

[Riddleton]

Still though, regarding Ythill, despite him being so secretive about game state, I find it hard to believe he would have the gall to do that as scum. He's in the "lean scum" category for that, and also because of some other points in my post I found suspicious too.

[Riddleton]

@Riddle:

I was referring to #423. Doing a bunch of busy work to basically agree with someone is scummy IMO. 2

How? Should I post next time I have a case with just a naked vote?

[Riddleton]

I think his actions are questionable. He's null; it was a pressure vote to hopefully get some words back from Kid A about his posts & his lack of case against me. People have unvoted or moved their vote to Aegor so I see little point in parking my vote on that [Kid A's] slot.

[Riddleton]

Otherwise all the power roles would claim, and traps would never be set.

I never said all PRs should claim. I'm just saying there's a difference between holding back

role information

such as results/Night Actions and holding back information for the hell of it. You're doing the latter and I don't like it.

[Riddleton]

How? Should I post next time I have a case with just a naked vote?

You should post however you like, but if you include a bunch of unnecessary fluff with the sole function of making you look townie, you should expect me to call you on it. I have no problem with naked votes..

It's not unnecessary fluff at all. BS.

[Riddleton]

"Transparency is good for town," is complete fail.

Of course

it is good for town. I'm not advocating complete transparency, but rather the amount of transparency that is acceptable. We're a team and the more collective information we have as a whole the better. People post scumreads, their thoughts etc so that others can analyse it and agree/disagree.

Let's say Player A, hypothetical, is a great player who figured the game out. All scum found and everything. If they didn't post any thoughts or reads because they thought it wasn't the right "game state" then what use is that? If that player dies the town are no better off. If that player said they think X,Y and Z are mafia then even if A gets NK'ed the information is out in the open. Back to this game, if you have plans or theories that

are not

traps or role information, they should be disclosed. Understand now?

What you are advocating is people to not post their thoughts and instead just post naked votes with no content at all and for people to lurk and not post their information at all. In other words, you're anti activity.

[Riddleton]

What you actually said was "transparency is good for town," which is mind-killing rhetoric and advocating complete transparency. Way to change it after the fact though.

I never advocated complete transparency. It should be obvious I don't mean to massclaim. Why should you think that?

Please explain how it's necessary for you to provide a color-coded chart that illustrates what another player has already stated.

Sure:-
1) it's visual. It illustrates

why

Dybeck fence sat on Csareo. I am a visual learner and I find diagrams helpful to myself. I naturally assume others will too.
2) It saves other people from going back and doing the same thing if they want to see for themselves about beast's point.
3) It's a lot better than posting "I agree with beast".

Also, nice strawman about me being anti-activity. Complete fabrication.

Do you even know what straw man is? I think you mean "slippery slope" is you really want to misconstrue my words into logical fallacies.

[Riddleton]

Riddleton's play is the same as it has been before. I'm waiting for an Aegor read, he talked about making one.

It's coming next, don't worry. I did Ythill first as that was requested prior. Just takes some time for me to make reads, that's all.

[Riddleton]

Aegor Read

-I agree with Csareo in #42 that the withholding information stategy was flawed. In #63 you elaborated and said you wanted to fakeclaim day cop. That accomplishes nothing but either out the real cop or mislynch a townie as others have said. Seems like an unusual strategy and plan and one I don't think is coming from town. I understand it was a pressure vote, but it was done incorrectly IMO
-I don't understand why Csareo is a low-hanging fruit (#65). I wasn't bullying him; I think he's scummy. I still think that now (for Anen), albeit slightly less. I don't like your clarification in #463. I don't just find his posts bad, but scummy as well.
-Why did you want an ABR wagon? Any particular reason other than to draw him out of inactivity? If it's that, is there a reason why you choose ABR instead of one of the other inactive players at that point?
-I think #253 is false; it's not just playstyle but rather how adamant he [Ythill] is to not give out information. Besides, there are other scumtells on Ythill too, and not just his playstyle choices which I personally disagree with.
-I don't like his defense in #506. It feels forced.
-I don't like how you want Oka lynched but didn't provide any case or thoughts on him. A bit hypocritical since you want Kid A's head-on-a-pike for the same reason. Are you voting him because he's not contributing much other than wanting beast lynched? Or are there other reasons?
Verdict: Scum.

[Riddleton]

VOTE: Aegor

L-1

[Riddleton]

Whos lynches would you be OK with,

TSO

?

[Riddleton]

Actually, everyone should answer that. For me, in order:-
-Aegor
-Anen
-Ythill

[Riddleton]

These are preferred:-
-Aegor
-Anen
-Ythill

Undesirable:-
-Elias
-Dybeck
-Kid A

Not lynching:-
-Oka
-Fat_Tony
-Beast
-Shinobi
-Heph
-TSO
-Riddleton

[Riddleton]

Aegor, can you tell me your most desirable lynches in order for everyone?

[Riddleton]

Why am I scum?

My scum reads are Beast, Anen/Csareo, and Ythill

Is that in order?

[Riddleton]

Uhm, sorry guys but I'll be LA for about 2 weeks from tomorrow to the 7th. Emphasis on LA: I'll still be around, don't worry, but I won't be active

as

much.

[Riddleton]

@Aegor, this: 539 doesn't make sense for me. I don't like your lynchlist in 542. Okay, many of us think that there is/are scum(s) among the lurkers. But, what's this: "I have not run into such a level of scumminess from the active players that I really want to lynch them over the nobodies."? I don't think you've been scumhunting lately (or at all). And this: 545 "dybeck and shinobi would be my top candidates" – WTF?! You just posted two names without a single argument. And in 550 you want T S O to explain his townread on Shinobi while you haven't posted anything about your scumread on the very same player.

Dybeck's ISO is devoid of content except for 397. No scumhunting, and he asks questions/suggests scenarios throughout his ISO that lead nowhere. It seems very much appearance-based. Which is, interestingly, the charges leveled against me by him.

Shinobi is similar.

But I would rather lynch one of the lurkers.

wow I think that's actually the first scumread you've done this game. Congrats!

[Riddleton]

Let me read dybeck again before voting. Been a lot of posts 0_o

[Riddleton]

VOTE: dybeck

[Riddleton]

Counterclaiming ^^

[Riddleton]

I'm jk

[Riddleton]

Let's see if I can JK the right person to avoid the NK.

[Riddleton]

I'm going to target Aegor

[Riddleton]

Im not naming my target anen, its Wifom

[Riddleton]

Cop, check anen please or ytgill

[Riddleton]

Anen is scum. Other scum is prob either ythill or aegor.

[Riddleton]

We'll see tomorrow. Ideally, a cop result would be good on you. Massclaim could also be a possibility tomorrow too depending if we have some good night actions (like a cop guilty) and/or Isurvive the night.

[Riddleton]

Anen confirmed for ninja godfather

[Riddleton]

Lol

[Riddleton]

He's not bulletproof though. Vig him.

[Riddleton]

Hmmm... Does a mafia RB counterclaim his goon buddy in this scenario?

[Riddleton]

TSO? Goddamnit. Well played