Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[acryon]

Hi everyone! First post of my first game!

Why is everyone voting already?

Welcome!

Here is straight from the MafiaScum wiki:

At the beginning of a game of Mafia, each Townie has precious little information about the setup. As a result, the first set of votes are made with either no reasoning or humorously flawed reasoning.

The purpose of random voting (and the so-called Random Voting Stage or RVS) is to spur the game into action by causing players to act in revealing ways. For instance, a wagon on someone may cause them to panic, or a player may become a bit overeager in wanting to put votes down on players, or a player may suggest a Policy Lynch on another one (with some players agreeing and some disagreeing), etc. In this way, events of significance can come about. The first time many players find something they seriously want to lynch someone over, they will remark that their vote is "no longer random".

One common trope of the RVS is that scum players will vote for each other or otherwise start their distancing early. For some time, this was a commonly applied tell.

One criticism of the random voting stage is that the votes are meaningless and pressureless, as players do not tend to have any real attachment to their vote or wanting to lynch the player being voted for. The solution to this is to up the stakes. It is not at all unheard of for a random vote wagon to reach a lynch, or for a Policy Lynch to occur with little to no discussion, and so forth. By raising or even possibly enforcing this possibility, the RVS can become more serious.

[acryon]

Did I misunderstand you perhaps? If so - correct my misunderstanding and better explain yourself because atm my grasp is that you are claiming my slot to be likely scum for very bad reasons. Ones that can't be backed through evidence in thread or that were even done by me.

Again - what does my prior slot holder's action PRE GAME have anything to do with me here and now? If you think that by them replacing out is some sort of tell, then fine, but how do you reconcile that idea now that I am present and actively posting/engaging you?

Can you reconcile it?

Doubt it. I generally strongly dislike meta plays, and this is the worst kind of meta IMO. There are way too many assumptions for it to be at all valuable.

[acryon]

Astinus, Skelda, Cerberus, Acryon. As people who haven't voted in a non-RVS way or voted at all yet, how do you see the present situation?

I'll just quote myself from another game for the short answer for why I haven't voted:
"If you look at my filter, you'll see that I tend to not vote in RVS. I think that a handful of RVS votes is good to start things up, but I also think that too many can reduce the impact and responses we could get from just a handful. Scum can hide well when it's too noisy, so I prefer to not add to the noise."

Initial comments and overview of what has happened so far.
-Didn't like the Astinus vote switch. Took vote off of someone that could have had a reaction to himself. That being said, he said he is new to online mafia, so that may explain his confusion in RVS.
-Didn't like Farside's vote and reasoning on the replace-out. As I said, I hate the kind of meta that surrounds that play. But I will note that just because a play is a type that I hate, it doesn't necessarily mean it's scummy.
-Mr_Blonde is pretty on-point with a lot of what he is saying, especially in regards to the Farside vote and explanation.
-Same as you, I didn't understand Chaos discussing the non-existent Mr_Blonde wagon. That part definitely read scummy to me. Scum like their strawmen.
-I don't like NakedJogger's lack of content. Two votes and nothing else. Inactivity in this way always strikes me as suspicious.
-TobyLoby has asked some interesting questions, which is good. I don't want to devalue the worth of good questioning, but I'd like to hear some actual content of her own.
-SnugglyDuckling's comments are mostly null, but I didn't love his question of "Are you saying my lack of experience in this format makes my opinion any less valid?". I think it definitely makes it a little less valid. I'm also quite new to the online format, and it plays a lot differently. Reads function very differently online. It's easy to play on a read that makes sense IRL, but online it doesn't. I think taking mostly-IRL players' opinions with a grain of salt makes sense.

Tha's all for now.

[acryon]

VOTE: acryon

I'm going to disagree with some of Amy's thoughts on Acryon. Although he may be making original analysis, a lot of it is said when asked and a chunk of his posting has been quotes from the wiki or himself from another game. His rather quick response to Amy means he's following the thread but he's not actively contributing to it. We've also long past the RVS stage.

That's fair. For what it's worth, I was still putting together things to add to the thread, but when Amy asked, I figured it was good a time as any to just post what I had.

VOTE: acryon

I'm going to disagree with some of Amy's thoughts on Acryon. Although he may be making original analysis, a lot of it is said when asked and a chunk of his posting has been quotes from the wiki or himself from another game. His rather quick response to Amy means he's following the thread but he's not actively contributing to it. We've also long past the RVS stage.

Wait I missed this.

How do you know his comments are from other games? Like exact words that he quoted?

She is probably referring to this:

I'll just quote myself from another game for the short answer for why I haven't voted:
"If you look at my filter, you'll see that I tend to not vote in RVS. I think that a handful of RVS votes is good to start things up, but I also think that too many can reduce the impact and responses we could get from just a handful. Scum can hide well when it's too noisy, so I prefer to not add to the noise."

Oh, and VOTE: Chaos

While I'm not ready to clear Farside as derptown, I can see how

maybe

she is. Until I see more to give me a better read, I think some pressure would be good in this direction considering the ease in which he jumped onto the wagon.

Re-reading through, I like Chaos's strawman even less now than I did before.
VOTE: Chaos

[acryon]

I get the impression Toby is not reading things in full.

I also feel that, since I talked in that same post about her not providing much real content outside of just questioning people, and her next post(76) is asking yet another question of others without providing other real content or even answering your question.

[acryon]

Why are you turning this into argumentum ad absurdum by changing the argument to involve all replacements, requested or not?

Because I'm not. Those links were two games where the mod specifically stated replacement was requested, and one where a pregame replacement occurred without sufficient delay to gamestart for it to be anything

but

a request.

"Active elsewhere" is not relevant; there is no cause and effect relationship between replace-out requests and activity elsewhere. What's next, are we going to limit the criteria to a specific moon phase, making it even more impossible to get a sufficient sample size to be meaningful? How about only looking at replacements who are dog owners?

While I don't necessarily think Beli is going about it the perfect way, I think he is at least tunneling in a good direction. Offering essentially useless input can be both scum trying to appear helpful or newb town trying to be helpful with bad input. Given that farside is far from a newbie, I'm definitely suspicious of her offering such a bad argument. You have to admit: especially for a very experienced player, that argument really sucked.

[acryon]

I was in part responding to Amy's post 74 read of Acyron where I am addressing her read along with my own opinions. I start the second sentence of my vote on him in post 77 initially addressing the whole of his latest post and acknowledged that although he has made original analysis, it was only when he was asked and a good chunk of his contribution to the thread at the time was regurgitation of the wiki and a quote of himself in a past game (along with the stuff I already addressed), combined with my belief that he may be actively lurking.

Essentially, those things to me override any townie-ness that last post of his may have had.

Not that I generally feel the need to respond to this type of thing, but it seems a little disingenuous to call quoting the wiki to be helpful and give a newbie an accurate definition "regurgitating" it. Additionally, 59 was a real post. So at that time, I had one post helping a newbie, one post adding onto someone's argument, and a third post detailing my reads with a blurb regarding my playstyle during RVS. Trying to say a "good chunk" of my contribution was from what you said it was seems likes a hard sell.

[acryon]

Generally players that hand out reads for seemingly arbitrary reasons get the stink eye from me.

Fair enough but I rarely find reasons to suspect people other than arbitrary ones so prepare to give me a lot of stink eyes.

I hope this isn't the case. It isn't that hard to find at least semi-legitimate reasons to suspect players.

[acryon]

While I partially agree with acryon and hope you find some legitimate reasons too, this post jumps out to me as towny, if only because I can't really see scum, especially newbie scum, replying in that way.

I do want to point out that I definitely don't think what he said read as scummy at all, just hoping he finds some.

@acryon

,

While I don't necessarily think Beli is going about it the perfect way, I think he is at least tunneling in a good direction.

What about how Beli is going about do you think of as not perfect?

I would say the general abrasive nature, because when you tunnel in that kind of way, it's easy for even town to write off the defendant's reactions as justifiably defensive.

[acryon]

I also feel that, since I talked in that same post about her not providing much real content outside of just questioning people, and her next post(76) is asking yet another question of others without providing other real content or even answering your question.

What's the difference between asking questions and "real content?"

Providing reads, commentary on the questions' answers, general suspicions of possible scum-teams, top town groups. Plenty of things. I already said in my initial comment about it that I didn't want to devalue questioning, because it is crucial to ask good questions, but following up and bringing your actual thoughts into the matter is very important as well.

[acryon]

Because I don't think going into them now will help the town.

Here's how I like to look at it. Each of us is working on the same puzzle, but some of us find different pieces at different points. By providing what pieces you have(as little as they may be), you could provide someone else with the missing piece they need to put together a more solid case.

[acryon]

I don't agree with your view on questioning acryon. Probing questions are like leads in a case. Some of them go somewhere, some don't. The best thing to do with the leads that don't go anywhere is to abandon them. There's no need to follow up. Also I think TobyLoby has been offering other kinds of content.

I agree that some don't go anywhere and they don't require follow-up, but there was no follow-up on almost any of them. So unless Toby has some extraordinary record of consecutive bad leads in this game, there is still some missing content.

[acryon]

Generally players that hand out reads for seemingly arbitrary reasons get the stink eye from me.

Fair enough but I rarely find reasons to suspect people other than arbitrary ones so prepare to give me a lot of stink eyes.

I hope this isn't the case. It isn't that hard to find at least semi-legitimate reasons to suspect players.

I don't like this response. It seems to indicate that it is OK to find arbitrary reasons to point to in order to justify a crap vote.

I generally like to see real reasons myself, it gives more to judge players by, both good and bad. If Duckling isn't going to provide reasons for his suspicions - ok - it will just make it harder for me to trust him.

I think this may just be an issues of definition. Arbitrary means without reason, and I said with reasons, so it wouldn't be arbitrary. I think the ultimate point is that I think even a suspicion based on

something

legitimate is good, even if it may not be the strongest case in the world, because at least that little something can get us somewhere.

[acryon]

Acyron, what is your read on Belisarus?

He's a null to me right now. I already said I understood his tunneling on farside earlier, but at the same time I do think it ultimately didn't get what we want out of it. Trains that lead nowhere are good distractions, so I think it's something to keep in mind, but overall Bel is a null.

VOTE: Acryon

Gut feeling on post 66. Seems he's buddying with with Mr Blonde.

Stronger scum read when post 94 he quotes Mr Bologna and then votes for the same person giving no other reason than him rereading and feeling he's more scum (This is his first vote all game.) and he has no other posts against or for Chaos.

He doesn't seem to actually be scum reading, rather he's bouncing off of others and using his own words. He's not really doing anything, it all seems fluff to me.
Especially that puzzle thing, that seems like hes making us all part of something big and at the same time making us feel all good and warm inside to be doing nice little things with each other.

Maybe I'm dead wrong but this is my strongest scum read at the moment.

This is fair. I tend to get some scum-heat early on pretty much every game I've ever played with a new group, because people see my town play-style as contrived(which I understand, although it's obviously not).

that seems like hes making us all part of something big and at the same time making us feel all good and warm inside to be doing nice little things with each other.

That's a peculiar way of formulating a scumread, but it feels sort of honest. Townpoints

Sadly, he is dead wrong but I agree on the post reading very town despite that.

[acryon]

Amy seems town to me and Mr Blonde's "shall we dance" comment seems like false bravado.

Too early for town to townread someone.

I don't agree here, especially since he said "seems town to me." I think it is completely fine to judge and feel that certain posts, even early on, sound town or scum. It shouldn't be the basis for strong reads one way or the other, but he didn't say they were strong reads, just that she seemed town.

[acryon]

A no lynch will most likely hurt town in the long run, and we're approx. halfway through the day right now. At the moment votes on various people are going something like 4, 2, 1, 1, 1, so we have many small/ish wagons. I'm not a fan of any of the non-voters (not including Royal), because right now votes would help move the game along, and talking without voting is a pretty good way to avoid too much attention. For example if any of the people who were called out for something but don't have any votes on them had provided a vote in any of their posts, they'd probably get scumread by some people.

Did you count the votes yourself or are you just very in tune with Belisaurius? I just find it interesting that your count is accurate when the mod's vote count that was posted this morning is off by way of the Belisaurius vote.

This isn't scummy. I've made and posted my own vote-counts in absence of the mod before. It's very much null.

[acryon]

@acryon Maybe, but I've been right about this once so I might be bias.

It didn't seem this way in Snuggy's case to me, but I do see where you're coming from and it's definitely something to keep in mind, because it can be scum trying to buddy up on town early on.

[acryon]

Yup, Hi guy. Not much to say, I'm getting no real reads

Do you have any opinion on Chaos or his wagon?

I think it's more than likely that the scum are influencing us to make it seem like chaos isn't town, subliminally or not. He's null for me and I'm going to avoid the wagon until anything I'm reading comes up as scummy. I've read through a few matches on this site and it seems to be a normal thing to lynch town on the first day, even more so is that scum are normally on the wagon/influencing people to vote for the person in question somehow.

I don't know that it's scum influencing us on a chaos wagon. He made a pretty scummy post and then twice has said he was going to read up and post, but didn't. It could be legitimate, but it could also be scum trying to wait for things to blow over and move on. If he doesn't respond to his wagon, town has nothing to work off of and use against him.

[acryon]

So I'm doing ISO reads.
I may ask a questioned asked or something I missed. Frankly with my time schedule this week it maybe slow going but it's more functionally for me then reading the game in full.

@acryon:

I get the impression Toby is not reading things in full.

I also feel that, since I talked in that same post about her not providing much real content outside of just questioning people, and her next post(76) is asking yet another question of others without providing other real content or even answering your question.

Is this a scum or town tell for you?

Overall, it is a scum tell, because it seemed like Toby was dodging.

Why are you turning this into argumentum ad absurdum by changing the argument to involve all replacements, requested or not?

Because I'm not. Those links were two games where the mod specifically stated replacement was requested, and one where a pregame replacement occurred without sufficient delay to gamestart for it to be anything

but

a request.

"Active elsewhere" is not relevant; there is no cause and effect relationship between replace-out requests and activity elsewhere. What's next, are we going to limit the criteria to a specific moon phase, making it even more impossible to get a sufficient sample size to be meaningful? How about only looking at replacements who are dog owners?

While I don't necessarily think Beli is going about it the perfect way, I think he is at least tunneling in a good direction. Offering essentially useless input can be both scum trying to appear helpful or newb town trying to be helpful with bad input. Given that farside is far from a newbie, I'm definitely suspicious of her offering such a bad argument. You have to admit: especially for a very experienced player, that argument really sucked.

I don't see why the tunneling is good.
He's holding onto something that has been explained to death and I don't recall why he thinks this is scummy or mentioned anything else relevant I recall. How long do you think his tunnelling and lack of input becomes more then null?

While I tend to not prescribe to that kind of tunneling, I have seen plenty of games where tunneling on someone's funky comments has lead to crucial scum-slips. That being said, I do think he got off-track and has, as you said, not really provided much outside of that. This certainly makes like the tunneling a lot less looking back., but he is still null to me.

I don't agree with your view on questioning acryon. Probing questions are like leads in a case. Some of them go somewhere, some don't. The best thing to do with the leads that don't go anywhere is to abandon them. There's no need to follow up. Also I think TobyLoby has been offering other kinds of content.

I agree that some don't go anywhere and they don't require follow-up, but there was no follow-up on almost any of them. So unless Toby has some extraordinary record of consecutive bad leads in this game, there is still some missing content.

I agree with this! It's why I'm voting Toby because I see it more scum then town tell.

Why no vote on anyone?

Acryon read is null. I see some thoughts and views but no drive or push on who he thinks is scummy or pushing to be better reads.

I am still getting used to using my vote more. I come from playing IRL, where votes were used differently, and as I get more used to this format, I am starting to use my votes for pressure more. Consider your post inspiration. I still don't like the play I've seen from Toby.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TobyLoby

[acryon]

I'm going to be so confused with all these replacements.

Seriously, hopefully it's not people that I am in other games with, because I already have a few of those and it's throwing me through a loop ><

[acryon]

Okay so I finally read through everything and this is my first comment on the wagon against me. Although looking back now, I can see how my vote and my reasoning can seem scummy I think the speed of my wagon and the lack of people questioning the idea of my one post proving rather or not I'm scum is actually a legitimate way to look at things is pretty bad. I definitely think that scum is on my wagon and are influencing it although to who is exactly scum I'm not quite sure. I'm going to post a reads list after my next class tonight and will go from there. Also, if there are certain questions I have missed please direct them towards me and I will do my best to answer.

I'd like to hear this reads list. And I think the issue with your one post is that it was your only post of content, and it was actually scummy in more than one way. If scum makes one scummy post and remains mostly silent the rest of the time, do we let him go because it was only one post?

[acryon]

Acyron, why did you leave the Chaos wagon to join mine? You've indicated nothing in your posts that you think Chaos' last post made him any less scummy or rather, townie. You also said you like to use your vote for pressure, but then you get of Chaos' wagon to put a second post on me. That doesn't make sense.

I wanted to put some pressure on you at least until I hear a little more from chaos. He is already supposedly putting together his reads list, and the pressure on him is still there. I think my vote is better off on someone else for pressure than on him at this point.

[acryon]

Call me easy to convince, but that analysis makes Skelda look

really

bad. Interested to hear the response.

[acryon]

WHY IS NO ONE SEEING THIS? “everybody is townie, I don’t like the speed of the chaos wagon, but think he is “scummy”….I don’t want to put my vote on him because….???? Uhhh….I don’t want to be associated with his lynch when people look at the votes later. But I am still going to push he is scummy in hopes I can get others to vote him”

I'm going to disagree.
I don't see scum avoiding fast wagons and calling everyone town. It typically leaves them with no one to lynch.
If chaos was town pushing the wagon is more typical or jumping on the wagon calling chaos scummy.
.

I see what you're saying, but I think building up town-cred is a lot more important day 1 for mafia than securing a lynch.

[acryon]

It's a (small) part of why I think acyron's vote off of Chaos is more indicative of scum.

I am still getting used to using my vote more. I come from playing IRL, where votes were used differently, and as I get more used to this format, I am starting to use my votes for pressure more. Consider your post inspiration. I still don't like the play I've seen from Toby.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TobyLoby

He uses his votes for pressure, so he takes his vote off of the leading wagon to make a twofer wagon on me. That doesn't make sense. His read on Chaos didn't change either. I also don't buy the part about putting pressure on me while Chaos has pressure already that will stay.

I look at -who I believe- is a town farside putting a vote on Chaos to put pressure on him and I look at acyron taking their vote off because they believe there is enough pressure and it doesn't make sense.

That's fine if you don't agree with my play. The pressure vote doesn't do much if it's on someone who has been essentially a ghost in-game. We were already all waiting to hear from him, so I didn't think my vote was adding much. I stand by that. That being said, a big part of the reason I voted you was because of your consistent question-asking without much follow-up or commentary. It's a lot easier to ask questions than make statements, because it keeps you out of things. Since then, however, you have started making real statements to follow-up your questions, 285, 286, 292, 309, and 310 to be specific. Obviously you are coming to a wrong conclusion on me, but you are actually making some points that I think town would try to make. I also certainly don't feel comfortable on a wagon that consists of me and someone I am lean-scum on.

UNVOTE:

Additional stuff after catching up this weekend:

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

[acryon]

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

Defensive of himself. NakedJogger was on RoyalApe for a bit. The reply from Ape to Chaos read like a delayed indirect OMGUS to me. I'll admit I could be getting a little too far out there on this one.

294 from Chaos reads town to me, but at the same time I want to hear more from him. He read through all the pages and that is all he came up with? He's a null to me at this point.

Skelda's reaction to CKD's post is the kind of reaction I have definitely had as scum to similar statements in the past. Skelda is lean-scum for me.

[acryon]

I don't see what motive RoyalApe would have for doing that though. I don't see why he would choose to be defensive through Chaos. Like, I can see scum-RoyalApe trying to make Chaos look scummy for not voting, but I can't see a scum-RoyalApe doing some weird OMGUS to NakedJogger thing.

Yeah, I mean like I said it was pretty convoluted anyhow. But I could see getting a train getting started on someone else(Jogger), but it would look like Chaos started it, not RoyalApe.

So would you say right now you are leaning to vote Skelda then?

I would say I am between Bel and Skelda at this point.

[acryon]

I dont think people who are reasonably suspicious are ever mafia. Reasonably suspicious lynches deny all culpability to the lyncher. Safe lynches are never good lunches. I prefer something unsafe, like Beli.

In regard to bussing, i already explained it so hopefully that was sufficient. Chaos doesnt appear that bad to me. Mr blonde thought so, but I honestly cant see what the problem was. Seems like just normal t ownplay to me. A normal town SHOULD be somewhat suspicious and make some mistakes.

I don't know that normal town SHOULD make some mistakes. For instance, I look back at my previous posts before I post to make sure I'm not messing up, because me messing up as town is bad for town. Not only can I throw things off, but then I draw suspicion to me and away from the real scum. It is in town's best interests to play as safe and tight as mafia are trying to.

[acryon]

I dont think people who are reasonably suspicious are ever mafia. Reasonably suspicious lynches deny all culpability to the lyncher. Safe lynches are never good lunches. I prefer something unsafe, like Beli.

In regard to bussing, i already explained it so hopefully that was sufficient. Chaos doesnt appear that bad to me. Mr blonde thought so, but I honestly cant see what the problem was. Seems like just normal t ownplay to me. A normal town SHOULD be somewhat suspicious and make some mistakes.

He's not even defending his actions and he thought scum was part of the push but he votes naked jogger. How much sense does that make?

I dont think people who are reasonably suspicious are ever mafia. Reasonably suspicious lynches deny all culpability to the lyncher. Safe lynches are never good lunches. I prefer something unsafe, like Beli.

In regard to bussing, i already explained it so hopefully that was sufficient. Chaos doesnt appear that bad to me. Mr blonde thought so, but I honestly cant see what the problem was. Seems like just normal t ownplay to me. A normal town SHOULD be somewhat suspicious and make some mistakes.

I don't know that normal town SHOULD make some mistakes. For instance, I look back at my previous posts before I post to make sure I'm not messing up, because me messing up as town is bad for town. Not only can I throw things off, but then I draw suspicion to me and away from the real scum. It is in town's best interests to play as safe and tight as mafia are trying to.

I don't always look. Many times I have to correct myself and I don't think anyone but scum would do it on purpose. I look at how a case is presented and if it makes sense, what players look to be hiding during conversations and my gut for scum hunting.

Just to be clear, I don't think that only scum makes mistakes. In an ideal world they wouldn't, but town makes plenty of mistakes. All I am saying is that making mistakes and being suspicious don't have to be definitive characteristics of town.

[acryon]

@acryon
oh I see what your saying.
I think you've misunderstood.
im not saying he's town because he's made mistakes. Im theorizing that he's made himself a good target, enough so that he's valuable as a wasted role/future mislynch etc.
He's an orgy of evidence imo

I agree completely. And I also wouldn't be particularly happy with a chaos lynch today.

[acryon]

He's valuable as a future mislynch? What? I don't think Chaos has made himself particularly anything. People talk about Chaos and his wagon being something to look into but I'm not seeing the votes constructed that way. It's all bs.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I took it as him saying Chaos is valuable to

scum

as a future mislynch, which I agree with. The best thing for scum is keeping people around that town is generally suspicious of. I don't think it was intentional, but certainly his early comments read as scum to people very quickly. This is great for scum.

[acryon]

I'm not thrilled with skelda's vote on bel. I don't get where that came from at all.

Meh, if you look at his ISO you can see the progression. For what it's worth I also feel scummy on Beli.

[acryon]

I'm not thrilled with skelda's vote on bel. I don't get where that came from at all.

Meh, if you look at his ISO you can see the progression. For what it's worth I also feel scummy on Beli.

Let me know what I missed. I think I saw one with bel's name on it but I got to get back to work.

These are the main ones to me:

Of the people with votes, I am most likely to go back to Beli.

You

[Belisaurus]

are clearly talented scum, so we should keep our eyes on you, but this is too Townie to ignore.

Sounds like he was pretty back and forth on Beli and even in his town-reads of him, was pretty unsure.

I still think it's worth questioning, but I don't think it was as big of a jump as it may seem at first glance.

[acryon]

Skelda is very consistent. I can't find inconsistencies with him.

I haven't said much about Chaos, but I have no good read on him aside from some possible association with scrambles. I did some meta research and he has about one scum game and it didn't reveal much to me. I guess I can see his vote on farside being some concerned townie but idk. I really don't know what to think about him.

Acyron, what makes Skelda and his replies seem scummy to you?

I have no idea what's going on.

UNVOTE:

I'll give this a try tomorrow.

I feel like this is a Towntell. I know I definitely felt this way just before my posts in this game. Would scum be less likely to say that they were confused? I dunno, I feel like Town are more open about how they are feeling.

I don't like this. This is a lot more often a scum-tell to me. Maybe just a difference in personal experience, but I don't like the idea of saying someone is town because of this.

And who's scum-reading me, and for what reason?

Not a fan of this post.

On a different note, instead of bickering over some GD issue and asking scummy questions, how do you feel about actually participating? Y'know, post your opinions about others, ask questions, take a look at posts that other people have found scummy/townish and throw in your opinion. You've seen the other people playing do this, it's your turn now.

I'm not sure who WOULD be a fan of that post.

Which of course begs the question of if scum would do something so blatantly scummy. He is new, and based on what he has given us so far, he just seems like an easy target to me. There is, of course, the off chance that he actually is scum, I don't think his play would be much different. But I don't think we have quite enough to make that decision yet. And most people seem to agree with me and have him as null.

I think having him as anything else is scummy

.

It is interesting how quickly the Chaos wagon is taking off. What is Chaos guilty of that Beli isn't other than not being around?

I don't like the bolded part at all. Seems like a dangerous sweeping comment to make. Also, the case against Chaos and Beli were completely different IMO.

Also, ten posts later:

I look at this and go, would scum be so flippant?

Yep!

God I loved that game.

UNVOTE:

You are clearly talented scum, so we should keep our eyes on you, but this is too Townie to ignore.

My top scumread is probably Chaos, but he has a lot of votes and so I'm not sure I want to join the horde. My top townreads are A.F.F. and NJ. A.F.F. because she is just town and Naked for his unique reads.

So anyone that has Chaos as something other than null is scummy, but Skelda's top scumread is Chaos?

There is a lot of condemning people for putting their vote on Chaos, but all they are doing is putting their vote where their reads are. They have the same scum-read as Skelda at that point, but are actually willing to be decisive about it. Hard to fault them for that.

VOTE: RoyalApe is a good vote I think.

Decides to jump on RoyalApe after others do. Just seemed like band-wagoning.

Well, CMK, I don't think having townreads is particularly suspicious and townreads can be useful because they tell you who not to lynch. But I'm obviously a bit biased. You are very good at making convincing cases though. I might be convinced if I didn't know you were wrong.

But you see, having a lot of strong townreads on people gives you fewer scum options right there, and in a game where I don't have a whole lot of strong scumreads, if I have a townread I'm going to say something. Right now I'm feeling RoyalApe, Dry-fit, Toby, and/or Mr_Blonde for scum because pretty much everyone else has at some point given me something that feels genuine. Isn't finding town a valid way to find scum? I think townreading is easier than scumreading. AND both Dry-fit and Mr_Blonde are on the Chaos wagon, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a scummy place to be.

I sort of agree with this in theory, except that townreading scum is the actual worst thing you can do. So by townreading a whole bunch of people, you are probably letting some scum in. That is what is wrong with having a bunch of townreads.

I'm rethinking my Toby scum read.
Sometime I think she's just asking questions to look productive, then I read this page and I wonder if she just doesn't post thoughts all the time.

Skelda: why did you vote for Toby?

She was just someone who I didn't get particularly Town vibes from and I really didn't like the people who had votes. I am really not confident that she is scum, though.

Of the people with votes, I am most likely to go back to Beli. I really do not think that Chaos is scum. I guess I could see acryon, not really sure. But I am not in the mood to die Day 1 again.

Here his vote is on Toby, but he may go back to Beli, and he could also see me as scum, but maybe not. And he still thinks Ape is scum. Just a lot of apparent flip-flopping/indecision.

Do you not think AFF is just Town? I mean, her posts just exude Town. She's pretty much a universal townread at this point, there is no point in giving a better reason.

Sure there is. You should probably have your own conviction on your reads.

VOTE: Beli I guess. I dunno, if I'm going to be lynched I guess I wouldn't have a huge objection to it being today. What I do not want to do is survive by a thread and then hang around as an easy mislynch for the rest of the game.

CKD, I'm sorry I don't act Town enough for you then. I'm honestly not sure what I was thinking at the time of that post, but I was just addressing his points and not paying attention to whether or not he was scum. And I mean, that's horrible obviously. That's just poor play on my part. I really hate when you have a case built up against you that has plenty of valid points, if it weren't for the fact that you were Town.

But like I said, I really see myself being lynched at some point anyway. I'm really glad I wasn't scum this game because then you would have been right.

I don't like this AtE.

Oh, and I really hope we can get some sort of lynch before the day is up. If need be I'll switch to Chaos or myself just for the sake of a lynch.

Trying to be super-town here, but I don't quite buy it.

[acryon]

Sorry for the wall of quotes. ><

[acryon]

I sort of agree with this in theory, except that townreading scum is the actual worst thing you can do. So by townreading a whole bunch of people, you are probably letting some scum in. That is what is wrong with having a bunch of townreads.

It may be the worst thing, but is it what Skelda is doing? You have to assume Skelda is scum to begin with.

Eh, it's a bad thing whether he is town or scum. The only difference is his intention. If he is scum, he does it to try to buddy up and appear town. If he is town, he does it to try to narrow down scum, but can end up letting scum into his town-circle which can completely throws off his reads.

[acryon]

Do you think Skelda is doing it to try and buddy up and appear town then?

Honestly not sure. I think exactly one of Beli and Skelda are scum. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which. I think my case against Skelda is a lot better than my case against Beli, but that could just be the lack of content from Beli.

[acryon]

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

Defensive of himself. NakedJogger was on RoyalApe for a bit. The reply from Ape to Chaos read like a

delayed indirect OMGUS

to me. I'll admit I could be getting a little too far out there on this one.

294 from Chaos reads town to me, but at the same time I want to hear more from him. He read through all the pages and that is all he came up with? He's a null to me at this point.

Skelda's reaction to CKD's post is the kind of reaction I have definitely had as scum to similar statements in the past. Skelda is lean-scum for me.

That's a term I haven't heard before. Neat concept though.

Definitely a good bit of a stretch. Sometimes my imagination is too much

[acryon]

Ugh, we have 10 hours. We really need to get a wagon going.
VOTE: Belisaurus

L-3, still a ways to go.

[acryon]

After your huge post 375 pointing out why Skelda is scum.

And then…

Honestly not sure. I think exactly one of Beli and Skelda are scum. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which. I think my case against Skelda is a lot better than my case against Beli, but that could just be the lack of content from Beli.

you go?

Ugh, we have 10 hours. We really need to get a wagon going.
VOTE: Belisaurus

L-3, still a ways to go.

What?


this is noted.

I like the people on Beli's wagon more than Skelda's. Between Beli and Skelda, I think Skelda has added more. I didn't post a wall about Beli because I was asked about Skelda, not Beli.

[acryon]

After your huge post 375 pointing out why Skelda is scum.

And then…

Honestly not sure. I think exactly one of Beli and Skelda are scum. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which. I think my case against Skelda is a lot better than my case against Beli, but that could just be the lack of content from Beli.

you go?

Ugh, we have 10 hours. We really need to get a wagon going.
VOTE: Belisaurus

L-3, still a ways to go.

What?


this is noted.

I like the people on Beli's wagon more than Skelda's. Between Beli and Skelda, I think Skelda has added more. I didn't post a wall about Beli because I was asked about Skelda, not Beli.

okay then, you said we "need to get a wagon" going....it is now 4 vs 4....and do you have any plans to put a case out there on Beli? or change your vote?

To be fair it was 4 vs 3 and then 5 v 3 before Dry-Fit switched. And I will change my vote if it gets closer to time and there is a closer lynch, but I think Beli is the best lynch.

[acryon]

Actually, when I voted it was 4-4. When acyron voted it was 5-4.

You're right. It was 5-4, 6-4, 5-5

[acryon]

To be fair it was 4 vs 3 and then 5 v 3 before Dry-Fit switched. And I will change my vote if it gets closer to time and there is a closer lynch, but I think Beli is the best lynch.

yay math..time to get new batteries for your TI85.

it was 4v4 before your vote.

you made it 5v4.

dryfit made it 5v5

it is moot now, but I dont want you coming back later saying "I must of miscounted"

It's still the same differential as I posted.

[acryon]

acyron, beli's blood will be on your hands.

can you take the heat?!?!

Gladly. He has provided nothing to the game besides his over-the-top farside tunneling. His efforts to speak like he's from another century actively muddle discussion. His flippant attitude in regards to scum show he doesn't seem to care what's going on. Then his last post just completely sucks.

I'm not happy about my lack of scumreads this late in the Day. There's

got

to be something usable here...

Come on.

[acryon]

Lol thats one part of him im definitely going to miss, his quotes were pretty funny.

I will not miss them.

[acryon]

Let's try this:
Who here is town reading chaos and why?

I don't think it's worth it to pursue a chaos wagon. Almost no chance of getting the traction required in the time we have.

[acryon]

Why do you have a town read on him?

too flippant (yeah yeah WIFOM)..also his is a counter wagon to someone I think is scum. his wagon came out of no where with little case or info in it. there was no point to it.

Wait, how did his wagon come out of nowhere? He had a vote on page 3, a vote on page 13, 2 votes on 14, 2 votes on 16 followed by 1 retraction, and another vote on 17. I don't know that 5 votes over 5 pages is out of nowhere.

[acryon]

acryon, any opinion on Beli coming in?

Disingenuous. He's played many games on this site. As per 423, he was on and lurking, so something tells me he didn't just pop in to page 18 and think he was lynched because of what you said. Especially since there was a VC two pages earlier with him at L-4.

[acryon]

acryon, any opinion on Beli coming in?

Disingenuous. He's played many games on this site. As per 423, he was on and lurking, so something tells me he didn't just pop in to page 18 and think he was lynched because of what you said. Especially since there was a VC two pages earlier with him at L-4.

but you can relate to missing VC right?

There's a big difference between mistaking the VC I did and mistaking yourself getting lynched. Give me a break.

[acryon]

I also like how you're witch-hunting me instead of trying to get us toward the best lynch when we have <6 hours left.

[acryon]

By the way, he came on earlier than when I said. I forget when. Before my "trolling" I guess.

CKD has been pushing Skelda all this time and on this page.

Not really. His last ~5-10 comments have been directly at me outside of his brief mention at the top of this page.

[acryon]

Whoops new page. Change that to top of the last page.

[acryon]

acryon, any opinion on Beli coming in?

Disingenuous. He's played many games on this site. As per 423, he was on and lurking, so something tells me he didn't just pop in to page 18 and think he was lynched because of what you said. Especially since there was a VC two pages earlier with him at L-4.

Meh. I know a lot of player that go to the latest post page and see what is going on.
if bel was scum there would have been a fake claim as scum, I think.

Idk. He doesn't strike me as the type of player to do that.

[acryon]

I also like how you're witch-hunting me instead of trying to get us toward the best lynch when we have <6 hours left.

LOL, we have had 6 hours since 08/28. Funny question, humor me if you will, how do you know I am not trying to get us to the "best lynch"?

Because you're focusing on me. Even if you thought the best lynch was me, there isn't nearly enough time to make that happen.

Tunnel on me another time. Right now we have to decide between the few that have traction or go to sleep.

[acryon]

acryon, any opinion on Beli coming in?

Disingenuous. He's played many games on this site. As per 423, he was on and lurking, so something tells me he didn't just pop in to page 18 and think he was lynched because of what you said. Especially since there was a VC two pages earlier with him at L-4.

Meh. I know a lot of player that go to the latest post page and see what is going on.
if bel was scum there would have been a fake claim as scum, I think.

Idk. He doesn't strike me as the type of player to do that.

based on what? you played with him before? do a meta? what?

Based on his play this game. And it's funny how people act like every scum ever fake-claims when they are close to lynch. This is not the case at all. There are plenty of other ways to try and get out of a lynch; how Bel is acting is one of them.

[acryon]

I also like how you're witch-hunting me instead of trying to get us toward the best lynch when we have <6 hours left.

LOL, we have had 6 hours since 08/28. Funny question, humor me if you will, how do you know I am not trying to get us to the "best lynch"?

Because you're focusing on me. Even if you thought the best lynch was me, there isn't nearly enough time to make that happen.

Tunnel on me another time. Right now we have to decide between the few that have traction or go to sleep.

wait I am tunneling on YOU now?


awesome, I am just asking you questions to figure out if you really believe the crap you are peddling.

You sure ask a lot of questions for someone that isn't tunneling.

[acryon]

What are you saying? Do you think CKD is scum tunneling?

Yes, and at the wrong time.

398 and 469 are good examples.

[acryon]

I also like how you're witch-hunting me instead of trying to get us toward the best lynch when we have <6 hours left.

LOL, we have had 6 hours since 08/28. Funny question, humor me if you will, how do you know I am not trying to get us to the "best lynch"?

Because you're focusing on me. Even if you thought the best lynch was me, there isn't nearly enough time to make that happen.

Tunnel on me another time. Right now we have to decide between the few that have traction or go to sleep.

wait I am tunneling on YOU now?


awesome, I am just asking you questions to figure out if you really believe the crap you are peddling.

You sure ask a lot of questions for someone that isn't tunneling.

I dont think you know what that word means.

Maybe I am wrong as I've only been playing online mafia about a month, but I take it to mean drilling and focusing your questions and posts on one player.

[acryon]

I dont think you know what that word means.

Ok, then replace "tunneling" in my comments with "drilling and focusing". Either way, you're wasting our time.

[acryon]

When farside said I was tunneling.

she met that I am focusing on one player, and I see connections everywhere that I think proves my point. In this case Skelda. My reads on other people is based (what farside assumes) is my line of thinking that Skelda is scum.

My questions of you is called scum hunting. I am trying to figure out if you really believe what you are saying (hint: at this point I do not). I am trying to see if you are lying. I am trying to figure out if your motivations are scum or town driven. the only way I can do that is TO ASK YOU QUESTIONS and observe your actions.

How does scum-hunting me get you to a Skelda lynch?

[acryon]

Acryon, how many scum are in this game?

I get that, but are you just ignoring the fact that we have a deadline

today

?

[acryon]

Acryon, how many scum are in this game?

I get that, but are you just ignoring the fact that we have a deadline

today

?

says who?

and take my place for a second. you think Skelda is scum. What else would you do?

Maybe actually talk about the actual issues I had with Bel and not have your argument laced in ad hominem.

[acryon]

This last chaos post makes me really wish we had the time to get a train there going. That post is rough man. Sounds

so

contrived.

[acryon]

What are you saying? Do you think CKD is scum tunneling?

Yes, and at the wrong time.

398 and 469 are good examples.

What?
Im confused by this. Are you saying CKD is scum?
I briefly looked at the rest of the page but I have to run.
I just have 1 hour left of work.

No, I don't. I was saying I think he was looking to me as scum, and he is looking in the wrong place.

[acryon]

For what it's worth I think CKD is almost definitely town. He is obviously going the wrong way if he thinks I am scum, but I think he's town.

[acryon]

Been eating pizza.

acyron, brief what are your reads for those on each wagon? brief brief reads

Belisarius:
Amy Farrah Fowler - Town
NakedJogger - Town
scrambles - Null
Skelda - Scum
acryon - Me

Skelda:
Curiouskarmadog - Town
RoyalApe - Null
Belisarius - Scum
Dry-fit - Null

[acryon]

Alright, I'll be unable to post again until deadline. I would still prefer a lynch on Beli, but I do think one of Beli and Skelda is scum. I would rather flip the coin and hope it's Skelda than no-lynch, and it definitely seems like the potential is there to get traction on a Skelda lynch more-so than a Beli one.
VOTE: Skelda

[acryon]

I had a gut feeling dry might be a PR, but subtly enough I didn't expect scum to have the same thought. I was expecting someone more obvtown or threatening to die. On that basis, I expect to find scum in the players the tiny scumBeli perched on my shoulder would be most afraid of: farside, CKD, AFF, and Toby. I don't know which of them I'd rather lynch, so I'm open to suggestions from my townreads.

What sayeth the noble acrayon?

I would be nervous about simply lumping people in your scum-reads that seem like they would be good scum in general. Everything is within the context of this game, so I don't feel comfortable with that method, although I do think it's something to keep in mind.

[acryon]

FWIW, I also have Beli as my top scum-read.

VOTE: Belisaurus

[acryon]

This last chaos post makes me really wish we had the time to get a train there going. That post is rough man. Sounds

so

contrived.

I'd like to know what happened to your thoughts on chaos at the end of th day to joining the bw on bel today.

The entire end of the last day I was on scum-Bel. I only switched to Skelda because I had a scum feeling on both but the Bel wagon got no traction. I still think that Chaos is scum, but I'm interested in Bel pressure ATM. I'll come back to chaos.

[acryon]

Does anybody think both Belisarius and curiouskarmadog could be scum together?

Not me. I thought CKD had put together a case on skelda most seemed to follow. Scum is on that skelda wagon.

But if Beli is scum, then CKD did a good job of badgering me off of his wagon.

[acryon]

Does anybody think both Belisarius and curiouskarmadog could be scum together?

Not me. I thought CKD had put together a case on skelda most seemed to follow. Scum is on that skelda wagon.

But if Beli is scum, then CKD did a good job of badgering me off of his wagon.

Badgering? You mean questioning you?

It's all about perspective. Maybe to you and everyone else it looked like questioning. To me, it felt like badgering so that's what I'll call it. Either way, I don't necessarily think that CKD is scum, just saying that given Beli scum, Beli/CKD team has a non-zero amount of merit.

[acryon]

Does anybody think both Belisarius and curiouskarmadog could be scum together?

Not me. I thought CKD had put together a case on skelda most seemed to follow. Scum is on that skelda wagon.

But if Beli is scum, then CKD did a good job of badgering me off of his wagon.

If Beli is town, then I also did a good job "badgering" you off the wagon...does that mean anything?

I didn't say it gave you general scum-points. Only in the case that Beli is scum.

do you take any responsibility for your vote on Skelda? Or did I bully you into it? Did you think Skelda was scum?

Yes, I do. I was between Skelda and Beli for my vote, but I did think Beli was by far the better vote, hence my consistent defense. I did finally decide to go on Skelda instead, because the traction just wasn't there for a Beli vote, and I'd rather vote for my lesser scum-read than no-lynch. If you read any of my other posts, you would know that I thought Skelda was possibly scum, and mentioned it several times. If you weren't wasting my time with some of your other questions, you certainly did with that one.

this post contained 4(now 5) questions, is this badgering in your perspective?

[acryon]

Okay so I was looking through what I miss and I do not understand why there is such a big wagon building on Belisarius...I mean the cases against him are not put together very well and the speed it built after there has not really been a large wagon on him the entire day is alarming.

Vote:Skelda

The biggest reason for my vote against Skelda is for this reasoning..Skelda did not bring up a lot of reasons for his vote on Beli and his comments and willingness to be lynched in 346 and the way he sounds with his last posts and lack of posting now here just seems scummy to me.

This kind of makes me want to townread you.

Really? This post is terrible. He is just repeating what others said and acting like it is some revelation he came to while reading through.

[acryon]

You are voting beli and think he's scum right?
If so your first comment here to CKD is pretty bad.
You come off not sounding like you strongly believe beli is scum.

No, I think he is scum, but I'm not ready to say B is positive when it is dependent on A being positive(which it wouldn't be until the flip).

[acryon]

As for my question to acryon I note people have associate tells tend to push both players but scum will push one over the other.

That's fine if that's how you play, but it isn't how I play. Why would I split my pressure on 2 people(one of which depends on the other to be scum), when I can push it all on one?

[acryon]

As for my question to acryon I note people have associate tells tend to push both players but scum will push one over the other.

That's fine if that's how you play, but it isn't how I play. Why would I split my pressure on 2 people(one of which depends on the other to be scum), when I can push it all on one?

It's not how I play, it's what I see often.
That leads the question if true, who would you think is scum if beli flips town?

Honestly I'm not so sure. He's my primary scum-read at the moment.

[acryon]

I'm in opposite land of thinking one of beli/chaos is scum.
I don't see them scum together.

Do you not think that Chaos's WKing of Beli seemed really contrived?

[acryon]

I don't see a scum CKD subtly bashing a scum buddy Beli lynch while voting for [???] Chaos. I think he'd want Beli to look town, not push him like that, call him town, and then avoid the wagon. That's more scum to town tactics.

Does anybody think both Belisarius and curiouskarmadog could be scum together?

Not me. I thought CKD had put together a case on skelda most seemed to follow. Scum is on that skelda wagon.

But if Beli is scum, then CKD did a good job of badgering me off of his wagon.

I thought you left his wagon because you believed there wasn't the traction needed for a Beli wagon?

They were both reasons. I could have tried to push harder for a Beli lynch, but given his "badgering", that wagon was tainted, and there was clearly not going to be enough traction for the wagon to continue.

[acryon]

I'm in opposite land of thinking one of beli/chaos is scum.
I don't see them scum together.

Do you not think that Chaos's WKing of Beli seemed really contrived?

No.
Why do you?

Yes, and you even said this. Did you change your mind?

This last chaos post makes me really wish we had the time to get a train there going. That post is rough man. Sounds

so

contrived.

No shit.

[acryon]

How would his badgering (of you and who?) mean there would not be enough traction for the wagon to continue?

Because any wagon I was trying to build momentum on would have scared people away due to the controversy surrounding it. Especially on D1, you almost never see a controversial wagon get there.

[acryon]

I don't understand what you are saying and how it applies to the traction of a ~4 hours before deadline wagon. Me, you, farside and ultimately Chaos were the deciding votes for last day's lynch.

@Mod: Requesting a prod of Ranon please. Thanks!

I don't know how to explain it much better than I did. But let me try like this. I'm a salesman, trying to sell a product to people. Suddenly, someone comes up and starts telling me how terrible the product is and how my sales ideas don't make sense, etc, all in front of my potential buyers. This would certainly make it almost impossible for me to sell you the product in a short period of time after you witnessed someone bashing it/questioning me so heavily. It would take some more work and extra evidence(which wasn't there yet) to get you over the perceived issues this person brought up.

[acryon]

I don't think there was an equivalency to that going on.

I did look back and I was mistaken by how the votes looked at that point in time when you switched at 5-5. I think farside would have gone over to Beli over Skelda though. Even so, I don't know how we would have made up that last vote on Beli if things went that way.

Hmmy hmm hms.

I prefer talking in real time to people and I know you've said it all already - but just to clarify, do you believe CKD is town? Any changes in thoughts if Beli flips scum? What Let's say we lynch Beli today and he flips town. What do you think of CKD's alignment then?

I think CKD is probably town. If Beli flips town, then CKD is almost definitely town.

[acryon]

Why do you think a Beli town flip = a CKD def town flip?

I don't think scum CKD has such an incentive to defend Beli the way he did.

[acryon]

I don't understand what you are saying and how it applies to the traction of a ~4 hours before deadline wagon. Me, you, farside and ultimately Chaos were the deciding votes for last day's lynch.

@Mod: Requesting a prod of Ranon please. Thanks!

I don't know how to explain it much better than I did. But let me try like this. I'm a salesman, trying to sell a product to people. Suddenly, someone comes up and starts telling me how terrible the product is and how my sales ideas don't make sense, etc, all in front of my potential buyers. This would certainly make it almost impossible for me to sell you the product in a short period of time after you witnessed someone bashing it/questioning me so heavily. It would take some more work and extra evidence(which wasn't there yet) to get you over the perceived issues this person brought up.

I really didn't see it that way.
In hindsite I should have voted beli and pushed with my town read on skelda. I forgot how crappy I was feeling that day.

That's fine and I understand if you guys didn't see it that way, but that is how I saw it. The Beli train definitely didn't seem like it had the wheels to make it after that back and forth between me and CKD.

[acryon]

Why a CKD vote over Amy?

Because gin.

see, this is a problem right here.

The thing that sucks even worse is that in my experience, most of the time these players playing crappy town are actually just crappy town -_-.

[acryon]

*passes over the whiskey*

Then why are you voting him, friend?

Because I still think he's scum. Many times the crappy town are just crappy town, but that's not a reason to rule him out.

[acryon]

I didn't die? Inconceivable!

Did you expect to die?

[acryon]

Oh also @Scrambles

Looking back over, I can see how Beli seems to be having some scumy vibes but I still don't feel that he stands enough as scum for me to put my vote against him

You said you can see how he seemed to be having some scummy vibes. What posts in particular make you feel this way?

[acryon]

A small correction in what I wrote, Chaos said he didn't see how Skelda could be scum, but it still indicates he thought Skelda was town.

That is an interesting question, farside. What it means is that Chaos had to make a conscious decision to leave his prior town read to then vote them later. At the very least this means Chaos wasn't just going through the motions. I can see town and scum motivation for doing so, but which one is it and why?

Well his changes in read are not being explained.
I agree his I don't see how skelda could be scum to voting makes no sense. Now apparently he seems to be shifting to beli based on the vibes comment acryon brings up.


CKD: what do you think of the interaction?

He also went from "AFF is definitely town"in his 5th post to voting her in his 11th. Granted it was days later due to his infrequent posting, but still, especially with no mention in-between.

[acryon]

I just don't get why more votes are not in him.

Town is always very skeptical of what looks to be obvscum. Wagons often start, but "common sense" jumps in and stops them. I'm not saying whether he is or isn't actually scum, but this is generally why IMO. For the record, I'm not entirely sure, but I'm leaning scum.

[acryon]

Chaos is way too scummy to be scum.
even now given day 2 he should have at least altered his play a bit, but he's still saying suspicious things. Like hia exchange with me for example.

This.

[acryon]

Way too scummy to be scum is how way too scummy scum stay alive.

Agreed, but it's also how newb/inattentive town get killed.

[acryon]

I really hate the too scummy to be scum mentality.
I said it once (not here) I will say it a thousand freeking times.
There is a difference between giving reads and making bad comments and lying down doing fucking nothing.
One is bad town, the other is skating by scum.

And which category do you put Chaos in?

[acryon]

Acyron, explain in your own words the instances where Chaos has looked obvscum to you.

I already said some of this in other posts, but I'll give it a go all in one place.

Post 2, 63, we have the first one that started it all. Strawman via non-existent Mr. Blonde wagon. Also included a blurb about Farside's early play that everyone had already said.
Posts 3, 147, and 4, 185 both promise reads that night and don't deliver. Not scummy necessarily, but worth noting.
Post 5, 236, says how he now sees how his initial vote and reasoning could seem scummy, but then says the wagon on him is pretty bad. Once again promises reads that night and doesn't deliver.
Post 6, 294, says that he now thinks Farside is town, after everyone had pretty much already left that wagon. The rest of this post is the most town of his posts, as he seems to be providing his own ideas against the Skelda wagon and for a NakedJogger one. That being said, several people had mentioned his unoriginal content at this point, so this can easily be written off as trying to avoid looking scummy. Additionally, his reason here for the scum-feel on Jogger is almost exactly the same as the one for AFF later, and they aren't particularly good.
Post 8, 307, says he is waiting on replies from NakedJogger, but then never mentions Jogger or the replies again.
Post 10, 500, was already addressed by me, but again never gives any real details on the defense of Beli or why the wagon was bad. Votes Skelda for similarly weak reasons.
Post 11, 511, I don't buy this scum giving up thing he is saying. When has this ever happened? Maybe after a couple days of heavy railing, but never quickly like this.
Post 12, 568 Vote: AFF. Nothing in-between, and the reasoning isn't nearly enough to warrant a Town-read-->Vote transition.
Post 13, 571, actually isn't terrible.
Post 14, 572, again has a very vague defense of Beli, and a vague explanation of what he thinks scum is up to.
Post 17, 630, now backtracks on his AFF and says in two different places that he might have been mis-reading. This post is waffle city.
Post 18, 631, now backtracks and says he can see how people have scummy vibes on Beli, but does sort of stick to his defense of Beli still. The second part isn't bad.
Post 19, 638, asks scrambles why he thinks he is scum, but he literally just said that he can see how people feel Beli is scum.

[acryon]

I didn't necessarily indicate which are scummy, but pretty much everything I said that isn't followed by a comment about it being ok or good you can assume is bad.

[acryon]

I just want to make this clear and I will come off as a little meanie toby. I am being a meanie, but not being mean spirited.

I asked for obvscum posts by Chaos and you give me like every post man.

Maybe that tells you something about his post history.

[acryon]

including one you called him previously initially townieishie on.

i just feel like you have been arguing a chaos scum along with a chaos town.

I have pretty much always been arguing that Chaos's posts are generally scummy, but I am admittedly somewhat torn between, as I said before, scum and newb/inattentive town.

[acryon]

I am being devil's advocate here. I have been part of towns that lynched obvscum that were actually town enough times to be very cautious of it. Like I said, I'm not 100% sure which side I stand on at the moment, which is why I want to discuss both sides of it.

[acryon]

The "This" was me partially answering the question of yours about Chaos looking obvscum.

[acryon]

I'm not trying to push an agenda; I am trying to have a discussion so I can reconcile the issues I have in my mind regarding Chaos that I'm sure are shared by others as well.

[acryon]

Bel leading Skelda 5/4

Chaos votes Skelda in 500.

5/5 tie.

Acryon changes vote 514

6/4 now skelda

Toby then add to the pile quickly in 516

7/4 Skelda

Then farside with the hammer


curious Toby, given that (Bel=scum) analyzes who looks bad?

I will answer it....Acryon does..and you some what...

lets play shits and giggles for a second though, why a Dry Fit kill? lets say Bel and Acryon was a team together? I know it is WIFOM...but when I play scum, I love it when town chalks up a night kill to WIFOM. When I am scum, and dealing with a silly or inexperienced town, I always kill for a reason......(please insert: "or you could be scum now, saying that to blah blah blah" here). Bel/Acryon have no reason to kill Dry fit, when most likely coming out today he was going after Choas (town) today...that would just make their job harder.


Still Chaos is the way to go today.

This is interesting I guess, but you of all people should know I was pushing pretty hard for Beli vs. Skelda until I realized it wasn't going to get there. I only switched because I wasn't going to be able to post again before deadline, and I didn't want to risk us no-lynching.

[acryon]

Can you tell me how this seems off though?

in my Bel/Ac (scum) theory, why would they have killed Dry. Dry was clearly a fan of a Chaos wagon. Farside clearly was a fan of a chaos wagon.. if Bel/AC are scum and Chaos (town), then why kill Dry. A possible whiff of a PR? seriously? lets say they DID get a whiff. and killed Dry on that (NOT VERY LIKELY) with Farside declaring the chaos wagon was what she was interested in, they could easily get a mislynch...but neither has joined said wagon.

the only way a Bel/AC scum team really could work is if Chaos was a scum member with them...

in that case, you should STILL vote Chaos.

of course if the scum team is an unorganized/newbie team...then you can just throw all this shit into the wind.

Or even just not the team you're looking at. I think you've gone a couple layers too deep my friend.

[acryon]

What is your read on acyron, ckd? This is regardless of your reads on chaos and farside.

something is rubbing me wrong about him...what exactly I dont know.

random question acyron, where are you from...meaning country.

The United States of America.

[acryon]

Generally, when a townie has a wagon going on them, they will try to do something to move it away from the mislynch. Beli is doing nothing. Everything seems to be trolling. If he's town, I really don't get it.

[acryon]

Generally, when a townie has a wagon going on them, they will try to do something to move it away from the mislynch. Beli is doing nothing. Everything seems to be trolling. If he's town, I really don't get it.

I started thinking about this today.
I wanted to check his meta and see how he behaves in situations like this. There had been some meta talk about his play.

Yeah, and I mean WIFOM and self-meta aren't exactly good ways to convince people.

[acryon]

Okay so my read on bel was do to ongoing game.
Researching his games as town

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

More active and talking about his reads.
Scum game

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

He did replace in the game and gave reads when being lynched.


I noticed looking through bel's games he is either killed at night or kept around till end game.
Mostly this was to see how he behaved when pushed during a lynch.

I know lately he has been more quiet playing games, but I still feel there would be something coming from town bel that would be talking/pushing who he thinks is scum.

I personally been trying to keep my head out of meta for reasons like this, it didn't tell me anything and people are playing closer to there meta or playing like shit.

I think bel is at l-2, I noted he hammered as scum last game so I'm going to see if there is any other thoughts or views in the game before any other votes are placed on bel in case he is scum.

I personally almost never look into meta. If players are good, then the only indication that they are scum will be small details contained within the current game. I would much rather spend my time trying to find that then trying to look into their meta, especially since meta analysis can easily give you false-positives or negatives if the player is good.

[acryon]

Generally, when a townie has a wagon going on them, they will try to do something to move it away from the mislynch. Beli is doing nothing. Everything seems to be trolling. If he's town, I really don't get it.

"Generally"...based on what? it all depends on the player, have you meta-ed Bel to see if this is true for him or you just trying to justify bullshit?

I have seen players (scum or not) defend themselves and then be attacked for being too defensive....or only thinking that someone is scum BECUASE they are being attacked...or whatever.

I have also seen players (scum or not) not give a shit either way.

more likely than not bel is a fucking vanilla town who doesnt give a shit about this game. I hate players like that.. HATE. They only play when they have a PR or a scum role. If they get anything else they phone it in. I know I will eat these words if he actually flips scum...but I am almost positive he is a TI or just a townie who doesnt really care either way.


what I think is really interesting, is this statement from you. IF I go back and look at your other games and see THIS (players who are scum dont defend themselves) IS INDEED NOT THE CASE. what does that say about you? Can you provide me a finished game when you saw this to be the case and you developed the "generally" basis? Save me some time. When I look at your completed past games...will I see that this is a true OR false statement?

Generally as in, generally towies want the town to lynch scum instead of town. AKA the point of the game... This is the stupidest question you have asked.

[acryon]

See my comments about meta before you waste your time looking into mine.

[acryon]

Generally as in, generally towies want the town to lynch scum instead of town. AKA the point of the game... This is the stupidest question you have asked.

you are completely ignoring my point and ignored a direct question.

HAVE YOU BEEN A IN GAME WHERE A TOWN DID NOT REALLY DEFEND THEMSELVES? FOR WHATEVER REASON...BUT USUALLY THEY JUST DIDNT CARE?

also FYI "generally" scum dont want to be lynched either, AKA the fucking "point of the game"

Generally, when a townie has a wagon going on them, they will try to do something to move it away from the mislynch. Beli is doing nothing. Everything seems to be trolling. If he's town, I really don't get it.

So you "get it" if he is scum?

No way.

unvote vote acryon

you are trying to justify your vote with BS...

there is no way you believe this....X must be scum because he isnt defending himself and town doesnt play that way...generally. Calling BS.

That is not what I am saying it all. Well done trying to create the story you have in your head. Admittedly I didn't answer well because I thought it was a stupid question. But everything is in context. Absolutes have no place in this game, so stop trying to treat everything being said as an absolute. In the type of situation we are in right now, with the type of player Beli seems to be, with the level of exeprience he has, generally they would at least try to avoid the town mislynching. This could be defending himself, or better yet, it could be talking about who is actually scum and give some decent reasons for why that might be.

And yes, it would make more sense to me if he is scum, because in my experience, scum are much more likely to troll in response to wagons than town.

[acryon]

In the type of situation we are in right now, with the type of player Beli seems to be, with the level of exeprience he has, generally they would at least try to avoid the town mislynching. This could be defending himself, or better yet, it could be talking about who is actually scum and give some decent reasons for why that might be.

And yes, it would make more sense to me if he is scum, because in my experience, scum are much more likely to troll in response to wagons than town.

this is based on what? what have you based this theory on? AGAIN, have you been in a game where a town, did not defend themselves...most likely because they did not give a shit.

have you been in a game where scum, have not defended themselves and "trolled"?

if the game is current, that is fine, dont post it...I will check...because I AM a firm believer of meta.

I am calling your justification of you Bel vote bullshit. please please please show me I am wrong. and dont avoid the questions AGAIN.

95% of my mafia has been offline, so you aren't going to find anything in the 1 finished game I have played on this site. Apparently you require that I spell it out for you explicitly, so here it is: In games that I have played that felt similar to this one with players that are similar to Beli, they would normally choose to convince town that there is someone else that needs to be lynched. Even in the situations where players did seem to not care, it would happen closer to lynch, not at L-3. Is this true 100% of the time? No. As I said, nothing is absolute, and everyone is working off of hunches and actions based on the game itself and personal experience. There will be bias and there will be flaws, but I didn't say you had to use it as a reason to think Beli was scum. It just makes me feel more like it based on my experiences.

[acryon]

acryon..please note: i am pretty sure you are not answering my direct question because you know I have caught you in a lie.

please show me that you have indeed based this justification of your Bel vote on something.

Please note: You could not be more wrong.

[acryon]

The issue I have is I can list chaos under the same fucking category as bel and I don't get why bel reads scummier then chaos.

I totally see what you mean here. I think for me the difference is perceived experience. Since Bel has played many many games here, you can't think about writing it off as newb-play the same way you potentially could with chaos. Could be wrong in thinking that, but that's my reason for feeling Bel is scummier.

[acryon]

FWIW, it's not that I think chaos isn't scummy in his own right, but compared to Beli, Beli makes a lot more sense to me.

[acryon]

I'm going to point out chaos is around:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=24044

The argument about town would do under pressure falls just as much under chaos.

Ape has all but disappeared and did scramble ever come back and respond to my questions?

Well I don't know that general inactivity was my point with Beli, it was that the posts he did make didn't work to get town in a better direction, but were somewhat trolly/fluffy.

[acryon]

I'm going to point out chaos is around:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=24044

The argument about town would do under pressure falls just as much under chaos.

Ape has all but disappeared and did scramble ever come back and respond to my questions?

Well I don't know that general inactivity was my point with Beli, it was that the posts he did make didn't work to get town in a better direction, but were somewhat trolly/fluffy.

I'm going to be blunt.
If I come out looking like an asshole, I'm sorry.

When I see one player being voted for that does shit all and lurks about while another player is being wagoned, that lurker tends to be scum. I'm sick and tired of people giving a free fucking pass to chaos.
Is beli acting trollish? Yes. Does the case on CKD make any fucking sense? No.
What has chaos done? Make weak cases and disapeared when pressured while everyone dicks around wanting to lynch someone else.
This is day 2 of the same shit. If people don't want to lynch him again and beli flips town, I'm going to have this big fat shitty post of never ending tunnel while asking, you, why you picked beli over chaos to lynch.

I completely get your frustration and know how you are feeling, but I have also lynched enough newb-town to be wary when it appears that's the road we are going down. While I'm not one to care that much about meta, Chaos's post history shows a number of times having to apologize for lack of posting, so I don't think that action from him is alignment-indicative in this game. And I never made a case for CKD. What I said was that if Beli is scum, it increases the chances that CKD is scum in my eyes by a non-zero amount.

[acryon]

@Mod V/LA until Saturday.

So your vote stands?

[acryon]

@Everyone:

Why do you think Dry-fit was killed?

Probably because his posts had actual content, and he wasn't really generating suspicion. Looking back over his ISO, seems like a pretty cookie-cutter NK.

[acryon]

I hold nk analysis for later. I have zero intent of rocking the boat so close to deadline. I am keeping a wagon other than Beli viable to force players to choose.

So you think chaos is scum? Or you don't think Beli's is scum?

Deliberately not making an opinion. I am forcing those in the game who have read and pushed theorues to decide.

This is stupid. You have just as much of a voice, and potentially a better perspective since you can read it all fresh.

[acryon]

I also promised you some reads on other people so I'll talk about some of those here. I'm not going to go into extensive detail on these right away, though, as we are imminently facing a Belisarius lynch and then a (probable) nightkill, which could easily shake things up again. The above post should make it clear enough that I'm not pulling these reads out of nowhere so simply rest assured that I can and will talk more about why these reads are what they are Tomorrow if required.

Scumreads

acryon

- have been back and forth on this but acryon has now been playing both sides of every argument too strongly and for too long for me to be able to townread him. Seems happiest playing "devil's advocate" when we already have three such advocates anyway. Best case scenario, his obsession with mildness is badly damaging the town

Amy

- started badly with a self-vote and has not been impressive since. All the more concerning that everyone was so keen to say how town she looked - the phrase "universal townread" has been bandied about, dangerously - and so allow her to slip into not actually doing very much for the town. More than one moment where it looks like she already knows people's alignments, next to no contribution when it mattered in the back half of day 1, voting Belisarius Today but barely looking as if she cares about it and happy to let conversation be dominated by a competing Chaos wagon rather than refocus onto the vote that she supposedly regrets not being around to push through Yesterday. To say nothing of the ridiculous hoops she's jumped through today to base her Beli vote on an elaborate triple scumread before we even have any flips. Yes, this is the condensed version of this read. We will be revisiting this in a big way on Day 3

Townreads

Scrambles

- fairly town, mostly coming from Mr Blonde but, while Scrambles hasn't excited me at all, he hasn't undermined that leftover cred and gets points for standing firm on Belisarius for a long time.

farside22

- fought for her Hiraki read early as much as she needed to do make her point/defend herself but didn't overplay it, as scum might have done. I don't agree with a lot of what she says but has got genuine belief

CKD

- slight town, handled the pursuit of his Skelda wagon well

NakedJogger

- town enough for now, willing to be divergent but not damagingly so

Riddleton

- the slightest of townreads; I thought Ranon was OK while he was briefly here

RoyalApe

- eroded slightly by general inactivity Today but, while I had a scumping or two on Day 1, was on the whole very impressed by Ape's effort and critical thinking

TobyLoby

- just ridiculously obviously town. Became clear very early and then, while I was reading, I'd keep having a thought like "I don't understand why nobody's saying anything about Amy" and then Toby would suggest a wagon on Amy, and her evaluation of acryon recently has again been excellent

On the fence

Titus

- fuck knows. Very likely town if Amy is scum but we'll get a better picture Tomorrow when Titus properly settles in

Yeah, this is super town. Admittedly I've been playing more cautious since in my first game online I pretty much led more than one of what I thought to be sure-scum lynches on town. I am probably playing it too safe, and still trying to find that balance between conviction and skepticism. But at the very least, calling me out helps kick me in the butt.

[acryon]

Should I hammer Beli?

If you will be able to do it closer to deadline, I would wait.

[acryon]

-_- Jogger already expressed that he could/would do it later

[acryon]

@Channel: Why do you think Jogger voted you?

Titus hammer isn't exactly scummy, since it was coming anyway. At the moment, it feels more misguided town to me, but I still don't get why he was so insistent on not actually giving his thoughts until other discussed, but then just naked hammered...

[acryon]

Agreed, and replace my 'he's and 'his' with 'she's and 'her's in that last post.

[acryon]

I don't really feel like CKD is scum. While I obviously disagreed with his defense of Beli and it was ultimately wrong, it read a lot more like town to me than scum protecting a buddy.

[acryon]

Looking back over, it seems very likely that Chaos is with Beli. Here are some quotes to ponder.

In all honesty Beli never real came off as scummy to me. The cases that have been built against him especially TobyLoby's seem very shallow and to be honest I feel like scum is trying to maneuver a mislynch by trying to get Beli lynched. I say Beli is town

Looking back over, I can see how Beli seems to be having some scumy vibes but I still don't feel that he stands enough as scum for me to put my vote against him

Can you give me one more run down on why you feel Beli is scum?

Especially when looked at all together, it really looks like someone, although admittedly doing a rather poor job, ultimately trying to protect his buddy. Especially the second quote really speaks of that I think.

[acryon]

I still think scum bel would vote his scum buddy for town credit.
What did you think of bird's case?

But I don't think Beli's overall play this game wouldn't follow that.

Bird's case on who, specifically?

[acryon]

I still think scum bel would vote his scum buddy for town credit.
What did you think of bird's case?

But I don't think Beli's overall play this game wouldn't follow that.

Bird's case on who, specifically?

Amy.

It's pretty good. Specifically, I really don't like Amy's complete disappearance at the end of D1. She seemed to get in at the beginning, rack up some town-cred, and back out. The fact that Beli mentioned the rule of 3 on Amy's 543 is very interesting, especially reading back over it now. It's also interesting that he mentioned the rule of three, and then rather than voting the one person who is definitely scum in his scenario (Amy), he went for the 50/50 (in his spot) of CKD/Chaos. The fact that he didn't push for Amy in that situation is certainly suspicious.

I'd be interested in hearing her thoughts today.

[acryon]

acryon - how do you reconcile suddenly deciding that my predecessor was a 'likely buddy' for Belisarius with your remarkthat my entry to the game (including huge case on Belisarius) was "super town"?

This is very embarassing. I am in another game with chaos and clearly mixed them up, so I didn't realize you were him.

Will obviously have to look things over again.

[acryon]

Ok, now that I have gotten my head straight, I am certainly feeling a lot less scummy about Chaos/ChannelDelibird. A lot of what Chaos was doing lacked much real content, which can be attributed to either inattentive town or scum. I chose to think it was scum based on Beli's flip, as well as the overall interaction between the two. Given that I now once again realize that ChannelDelibird is the slot, I think it makes a lot more sense that Chaos was operating as inattentive town. By adding in ChannelDelibird's content, which I thought and still think was very town, I ultimately have the slot as lean-town. I would say Amy is my biggest scum-read at the moment.

Forgive my major mistake. Thankfully Bird stopped me before I kept going.

[acryon]

I don't know how much to take from Beli's play yesterday. There was a distinct point where he seemed to give up when he called Amy scum and voted for CKD and the rest was probably wifom.

I looked up Beli's meta and he's okay with busing. He doesn't seem to bus outright early though, and not without there being reason to do so. This kinda makes me want to eliminate farside.

Beli mainly communicated and responded to me yesterday. This makes me think he may have actively engaged more so with townies. But for d1 play, this kinda makes me want to eliminate Amy. Amy and farside were his main engagements and communications the first day.

Maybe it's just because I hate putting stock in meta play, especially a player who is capable of actively avoiding adhering to a specific way of playing that exists in their meta, but I don't like the idea of eliminating anyone as a result of meta-reads on Beli.

[acryon]

Acyron, you are free to provide me evidence, which would have to be meta evidence, that Beli is capable of actively avoiding adhering to a specific play.

I just strongly dislike meta-reading, as in my experience, it does more to misdirect than anything else. This applies doubly for Beli IMO, because at the very least his slot in this game was a bit of a wild-card page-to-page. He just seems to me like someone who, as a target of it, would make meta-analysis even worse.

The only one I meta read out of that was farside too. Do you believe farside deserves more looking into?

No, not at the moment. Farside is in my town right now.

[acryon]

I just strongly dislike meta-reading, as in my experience, it does more to misdirect than anything else. This applies doubly for Beli IMO, because at the very least his slot in this game was a bit of a wild-card page-to-page. He just seems to me like someone who, as a target of it, would make meta-analysis even worse.

People were discussing his meta yesterday.

Titus is trying to wade through what the wifom means today

But my metaing on what sort of busing Beli does is that gets your goat?

Well things were different yesterday, for one. Although I still don't like it, meta-analysis of a living player is a lot different than on a dead player, because at least the former can get a response. Two, the other meta discussions weren't really eliminating other people as potential suspects, especially one that is a hot topic at the moment. I wasn't so much wanting to hate on your meta play as much as I wanted to dissuade you from using it as your reason to let Amy free for the moment.

[acryon]

I'm not sure taking anything beli did as indicative of alignment is a smart move. He was very slippery from the start. (plus I have kind of a pr read on amy, so)

I completely agree with being very cautious when dealing with the actions of a player that was such a wild-card. I just thought it was interesting, and possibly worth taking into consideration.

[acryon]

I'm not sure taking anything beli did as indicative of alignment is a smart move. He was very slippery from the start. (plus I have kind of a pr read on amy, so)

I completely agree with being very cautious when dealing with the actions of a player that was such a wild-card. I just thought it was interesting, and possibly worth taking into consideration.

Not a problem, do what you gotta do. I'll just try to control myself because I tend to get paranoid, which leads to overanalyzing meta lol. It's really more of a personal problem.

For sure. I think it is a problem for a lot of people. I don't think meta is necessarily completely useless, but its overemphasis has definitely ruined many towns. I tend to just avoid it completely, because it's easy to get sucked into meta-analysis and lose site of the context of the game.

[acryon]

Not wanting to draw conclusions from Belisarius after his scumflip is anti-town, full stop. Scum always tell us things, whether they mean to or not, and "slippery" players don't get lynched for blatantly not giving a shit about the town. Dead scum are the best resource at our disposal outside of role results.

Ugh, post just got deleted.

Basically, I dislike meta-analysis, as I've said. However, I completely believe in analyzing the in-game actions of a lynched player. In the case of Beli, since he was such an apparent wild-card, I do think it would be wise for us to proceed with a bit of caution regarding things we think we may have found, lest we get caught on a path he intended for us to take...

[acryon]

I was going to link the games I looked at, but I don't have a lot of time left to dedicate looking them up again and linking right now. From memory, Beli would mention his partners in reads lists and I know at least in one game he discussed with someone how he thought one buddy wasn't scum. So he wouldn't totally avoid them based on that. I would say he didn't tend to actively engage them, if anything.

Beli didn't make a reads list or interacted with a lot of people at all D1, so there is not a lot to glean there. It's probably best you re-look up meta if you're interested and see how your thoughts compare.

See, here is the problem with meta. Unless you are looking at a larger sample size, you're essentially comparing apples to oranges. I would much rather look at an analysis of those he

did

interact with day 2 in this game, and how those people responded, and see what turns up. I don't have time for that today, but I will get to it tomorrow if someone hasn't already.

[acryon]

I'm not even going to bother right now because clearly I'm getting lynched. Yes I'm giving up, yes it's bad, but I completely lose it when people vote me when I'm town. WIFOM alert, but as scum I tend to actually play to my wincon in these situations and try to get the wagon off me.

What? You're still only L-3... And this is just really stupid:

Personal principle - I always self hammer. Just putting that out there.

Dumbest personal principle I've ever heard. Either this is AtE or you need to re-evaluate your personal principles, because that is just so stupid.

[acryon]

I still think scum bel would vote his scum buddy for town credit.
What did you think of bird's case?

But I don't think Beli's overall play this game wouldn't follow that.

Bird's case on who, specifically?

Amy.

It's pretty good. Specifically, I really don't like Amy's complete disappearance at the end of D1. She seemed to get in at the beginning, rack up some town-cred, and back out. The fact that Beli mentioned the rule of 3 on Amy's 543 is very interesting, especially reading back over it now. It's also interesting that he mentioned the rule of three, and then rather than voting the one person who is definitely scum in his scenario (Amy), he went for the 50/50 (in his spot) of CKD/Chaos. The fact that he didn't push for Amy in that situation is certainly suspicious.

I'd be interested in hearing her thoughts today.

complete disappearance

- lmao, in the nicest way possible fuck off with the complete disappearance. I didn't get prodded D1, so complete disappearance my ass.

'She seemed to get in at the beginning, rack up some town-cred, and back out.'

- How the fuck did I back out? I contributed the whole way through. If I had a read I posted it. If I didn't then I waited for new posts. I EXPLAINED ALL OF THIS WAY EARLIER.

I mean just because you weren't prodded doesn't mean you didn't have a post from 300 to 543 which is 3 solid days with lots of discussion you could have taken part in. Kinda seems like a disappearance to me.

[acryon]

See, here is the problem with meta. Unless you are looking at a larger sample size, you're essentially comparing apples to oranges. I would much rather look at an analysis of those he did interact with day 2 in this game, and how those people responded, and see what turns up. I don't have time for that today, but I will get to it tomorrow if someone hasn't already.

Out of all of his play, you decide to act on the part of it that was obviously wifom.

It's all wifom. He was purposely wifoming yesterday. He was probably wifoming about being a doctor and saving you N1 now that I know he is scum. I have reason to suspect that he either knew dry-fit was a pr or he was trying to fake being a pr in his conversation with dry-fit yesterday when he mentioned something about protecting.

You have to arbitrarily decide what about his wifom is useful. This isn't looking into how other people responded to his wifom, it's looking into his wifom like a crystal ball hoping to get a golden read.

You don't see the issue?

I completely agree with this entire post, but you are talking about two different things. I was speaking directly to the problems of

meta

-play. This is not the same as wifom, so I'm not sure why you keep inter-changing the two in this discussion. WIFOM obviously has its own problems, and especially with a wild-card player like Beli, we need to proceed with caution. Again, I completely agree with everything you said in this post. It was the meta stuff I took issue with.

[acryon]

Well, you already said it's wifom. But bleh.

My point is acyron, you are possibly heading into shit with either territory. I don't see engaging in wifom to be any better than meta reading someone's busing.

I guess to me I would rather operate on wifom where the information is contained directly in this game than try to compare to past games where the whole point is to deceive. But I completely understand where you're coming from, and honestly, I definitely have always had a strong distaste for meta, so it's probably mostly personal.

[acryon]

Regarding Amy,

Correct.

I feel no need to change my vote right now. Part of me wants Beli policy-lynched, because I can see he doesn't give a fuck about the game, and would do us a favour by getting out if he has no intention of helping town (and making two sentence posts without reasoning doesn't count). The policy part of the lynch wasn't there when I first voted Beli, but I'm done waiting for a rational post of any kind.

I thought this post was possibly a (scum) Amy gearing up for a Beli town lynch. As in, there was an other excuse available to her (Beli needing to be policy lynched anyway) after the (town) Beli flip. Obviously, this didn't happen and why I'm not following that.

Amy calling out Chaos and CKD as scum while voting for another person is something I see scum do to their scum buddies. They call them scum or scummy and then vote town. It's why I questioned her on why Beli vs them. Obviously, this is not a scenario that has occurred.

I do think Amy is town. I think a lot of what she's said has made sense and she has been consistent in her main scum reads.

So you do think that Amy's threat to self-vote in her recent post is scummy, but she is town overall?

[acryon]

@Curious, you can pick up the VCA after I die. It's kinda my thing.

As a side note, I wasn't trustinh NJ to hammer. Never trust a lurker to hamner.

Except I did ask him if he could and he said yes. It would certainly look pretty bad on his part of he didn't come back and finish the job like he said.

[acryon]

Haven't though about it more critically just yet, but at the moment that all seems really on-point.

[acryon]

Kudos to both Beli and one of CDB's posts for instantly making everyone vote for me. I'm not even going to bother right now because clearly I'm getting lynched. Yes I'm giving up, yes it's bad, but I completely lose it when people vote me when I'm town. WIFOM alert, but as scum I tend to actually play to my wincon in these situations and try to get the wagon off me.

Examples, please!

I'd also like to point out that it seems very odd that someone would "completely lose it" when people vote them as town. Multiple townies are usually mislynched every game. Does it suck? Yes, but it happens every game. It seems odd to have such a reaction to something that happens

all the time

.

[acryon]

Scrambles stop avoiding me.

If you are referring to you questioning him about linking his completed games and time-frames, you could have easily done it yourself in the time you've been waiting.

[acryon]

Scrambles stop avoiding me.

If you are referring to you questioning him about linking his completed games and time-frames, you could have easily done it yourself in the time you've been waiting.

Not if he has played on other sites with usernames. I want this for a reason.

Well you didn't specify that in the question, and I certainly wouldn't glean from your question that you were expecting links to games outside this site. Kind of great lengths for someone to go to so you can analyze their meta, which is often useless anyway. To be honest, if I had games on other sites, I probably wouldn't bother to go and find them to give to you either. I thought it was your VCA that was world-class; where is that?

[acryon]

I'm slowly convincing myself to replace out. I stopped having fun when CDB came in, he's a jerk, I'm taking this way too seriously and I have better things to do with my spare time than getting upset with morons on a message board.

On the other hand replacing out can be considered bad in my situation and no doubt someone will yell at me for it. Nevertheless if I get this annoyed/upset again I'm going.

I am very confused at this... You're acting like you have never played a game of mafia before and you are taking this all very personally for someone that has played before.

Let's make some things very clear. Whether CDB is right or wrong, or his reasoning is right or wrong, he is not a jerk for presenting a case.

This is a game.

Honestly, your response has done far more to convince me that you are scum than his case has, because it is very hard to believe that someone who has played mafia before would react so foolishly to someone calling them scum.

[acryon]

Generally town don't need to add extra negative adjectives to get their point across. And scum have to fabricate reasons for scumreads.

I don't know that I quite agree with this. I often see town using added negative adjectives to get their point across. Especially with a reluctant town, you sometimes need to do this to get people on board a wagon that you know is the right one. In your case, since you were town-read by most people, it may take some negative adjectives to help overcome that initial read people had on you.

[acryon]

I dont see how anyone sees amy as scum. Maybe a reread for some players is in order

Who do you think is scum?

[acryon]

@acryon
ckd, ape, titus

What do you think of Amy's response to all of this?

[acryon]

I have massive arguments with players all the time. On my other site, im kinda known for it, and a lot of people call it detrimental.
however, normally in an argument like this I would say amy is town. Scum just dont argue this much or with such fervor.

But doesn't it seem like an irrational and unrealistic response to someone who has played before being called scum?

[acryon]

Actually, I didn't realize that this was her first game on this site. Hmmmm, scratch that I guess for now. But I'm not going to write it off completely.

[acryon]

UNVOTE: Amy

Nonetheless, going to rethink. I want people to propose alternatives; even if I'm right, Belisarius had two buddies.

Conftown. Amy is town too most likely.

This is ridiculous. How is CDB conftown because of this?

Kudos to both Beli and one of CDB's posts for instantly making everyone vote for me. I'm not even going to bother right now because clearly I'm getting lynched. Yes I'm giving up, yes it's bad, but I completely lose it when people vote me when I'm town. WIFOM alert, but as scum I tend to actually play to my wincon in these situations and try to get the wagon off me.

Examples, please!

I'd also like to point out that it seems very odd that someone would "completely lose it" when people vote them as town. Multiple townies are usually mislynched every game. Does it suck? Yes, but it happens every game. It seems odd to have such a reaction to something that happens

all the time

.

Probably scum. I lose it frequently as town is I am the mislynch. My losing it is usually relative to the amount of confidence I have in my team nailing the other scum.

If you lose it in that manner more than once during a game of mafia and start calling people jerks because of their play, then you should re-think your involvement with the game itself.

[acryon]

Scrambles and acyon are the two I want to lynch.

I'm happy with a CKD or Amy lynch at this stage. I need to reread them both at some stage while I will catch up. I might change my vote if necessary

Stahp. Both are likely town.

The cases you have posted along with each of these posts are so good, I'm shocked people aren't catching on! /s

Seriously, the vast majority of your ISO is fluff, and the real pieces of content you have are based almost exclusively on gut-reads or tenuous speculation. Do you actually have anything concrete or a case with some real evidence to bring to the town?

[acryon]

I'm slowly convincing myself to replace out. I stopped having fun when CDB came in, he's a jerk, I'm taking this way too seriously and I have better things to do with my spare time than getting upset with morons on a message board.

On the other hand replacing out can be considered bad in my situation and no doubt someone will yell at me for it. Nevertheless if I get this annoyed/upset again I'm going.

I am very confused at this... You're acting like you have never played a game of mafia before and you are taking this all very personally for someone that has played before.

Let's make some things very clear. Whether CDB is right or wrong, or his reasoning is right or wrong, he is not a jerk for presenting a case.

This is a game.

Honestly, your response has done far more to convince me that you are scum than his case has, because it is very hard to believe that someone who has played mafia before would react so foolishly to someone calling them scum.

Why was Amy's response read scummy?

From my prospective Amy overreacted. She called cbd names, for reasons I'm unclear about, and attacked cbd for attacking her.

I just didn't buy it at all. I don't think anybody reacts in that way, especially given her personality so far this game. It definitely just seemed like some AtE, and I don't think

any

townie would say the part about the self-vote that she did. Just plain wrong and scummy.

[acryon]

VOTE: Titus
I want to hear you actually say

something

. What are your reads and, more importantly, why?

[acryon]

^^^ Nice chainsaw OMGUS discredit. I have done plenty. You should poke your buddy to respond to my allegation if you have daychat.

This wasn't a "I think your scum" vote, although I'm not ruling that out. It was a "please actually say something" vote. You haven't done anything. You have provided almost zero analysis or reasoning in any of your posts. You're all talk, which doesn't do anything for town.

[acryon]

- I don't care for acryon's interaction with Titus. acryon has been slowly but consistently ramping up his beef with Titus (compare Post 877, where Titus's Beli-hammer "isn't exactly scummy" with Post 1083, where Titus has already started shifting his Titus-vote from a motivational vote into a voting-for-scum vote). And he's gone out of his way to get into conflict with Titus (Post 998 and Post 1003).

Yo, acryon. We get it. You don't like how Titus is playing. Unless if you want to vote Titus because you think she is scum, I'm going to consider your "motivational" vote to be suspicious in light of the fact that we already have a flipped scum (best source of info) and it's Day 3 (plenty of material to work off of). That is, your vote makes you look active and engaged, but you aren't actively engaging in scum hunting.

I don't like when people throw out accusations, and presumably gain town-cred as appearing to scum-hunt, while not actually saying anything. I also fail to see how a pressure vote isn't acceptable simply because we have a flipped scum and its day 3.

I would rather simply put on a pressure vote on someone that claim scum at this point, because my goal is to get real information from Titus, not to invoke some defensive response.

[acryon]

@acryon:

I don't like when people throw out accusations, and presumably gain town-cred as appearing to scum-hunt, while not actually saying anything. I also fail to see how a pressure vote isn't acceptable simply because we have a flipped scum and its day 3.

I would rather simply put on a pressure vote on someone that claim scum at this point, because my goal is to get real information from Titus, not to invoke some defensive response.

A pressure vote, in the abstract, isn't unacceptable.

Your

pressure vote, which appears to be part of a long-running issue you have with Titus's play, is suspicious because you're not doing any actually scumhunting in addition to your Titus complaints.

I was writing this up already, so here you go. The story of Titus, which we can title: This is That and I'm Not Sure Why.

Bunch of new players. I will need to read tonight.

Fair, sound good.

Blah just reading from my subin. Toby looks town.

Decides not to actually look at the game before the sub-in, which sucks. I wouldn’t mind an explanation on the Toby town-read, but this is sort of fine because it seems like just an initial thought.

VOTE: Chaoslord

Keeping wagons up for vca.

First mention of VCA. We will come back to this.

I hold nk analysis for later. I have zero intent of rocking the boat so close to deadline. I am keeping a wagon other than Beli viable to force players to choose.

I get forcing players to choose, but there has still not been any real content or reads yet.

I hold nk analysis for later. I have zero intent of rocking the boat so close to deadline. I am keeping a wagon other than Beli viable to force players to choose.

So you think chaos is scum? Or you don't think Beli's is scum?

Deliberately not making an opinion. I am forcing those in the game who have read and pushed theorues to decide.

I already commented on how I thought this was stupid. If she had actually participated/read through the game in the 3 full days leading up to this, she could have easily contributed and maybe helped town through the lynch. Thankfully we got there without her help.

Toby, someone has to move. There are four or five undecideds. If no one votes Beli, hammering will not matter. I am eliminating the excuse of Beli being the only viable wagon.

This would be ok if there were any real reasonings for this. You are (supposedly) a member of this town, not some nebulous utility slot. Use your voice, and actually say something. Still no actual reads.

I hold nk analysis for later. I have zero intent of rocking the boat so close to deadline. I am keeping a wagon other than Beli viable to force players to choose.

So you think chaos is scum? Or you don't think Beli's is scum?

Deliberately not making an opinion. I am forcing those in the game who have read and pushed theorues to decide.

This is stupid. You have just as much of a voice, and potentially a better perspective since you can read it all fresh.

He does it for VCA purposes. Some people enjoy analysing that to find scum, in addition to other methods which you may be more familiar with.

Indeed. I tend to value VCA a lot at endgame.

That being said, I will be out most of the day so....

VOTE: Beli

Hammers despite the fact that Toby already said she would(presumably not paying attention to the conversation Toby and I had).
Again with the VCA. “Hey guys, I don’t have any actual reads ever, but once end game comes along, I will have a great VCA case.” Sure you will.

@Acyron, you can tell a lot by being silent and forcing players who have read the game to take a stand. I hammered when the last lurker came on.

If scum shot me, it would be a big indicator they liked the gamestate. The NakedJogger kill probably suggests scum want to focus on the hammer. That's a bet I will take.

VOTE: Scrambles

Sure, you can tell a lot, but this is a team game. And whatever you are keeping secret isn’t helping us find scum. Here is your first real explanation of one of your choices based on something within the context of the game. And unfortunately, it is NK speculation which is always WIFOM.

Farside is town btw...

Again, no explanation.

@Farside, it is the argument you had Day 1 with Beli. He is right that replaceouts are null. Yet he includes a "serious vote" on you with his comments. That vote helps start a counterwagon to scrambles. It is a pretty strong chainsaw.

I also think Amy is likely town. Beli has said that scum tend to include a buddy in their lists. I doubt he has here.

Finally, here is an added piece of real reasoning since farside asked for it. That being said, this is based on a hunch at best. Proceeds to make another mention of a person being town with 0 explanation. Then decides based on nothing that Beli didn’t include a buddy in his list. Total WIFOM.

Nope! I don't grok the case on chaos at all. Chaos is just lynchbait.

Chaos also needs more looking into.

Curious is likely town.

Perfect, then look into him and tell us what you find. And again, someone is town with no reasons.

@Farside, I'm not referring to the ultimate end wagon. I'm looking at Beli's first hard defense. Beli hard defended Hiraki's replaceout as null and voted you for wanting to solve that. I could see scum wanting to tear you down for doing something logically unsound but at that point in the game voting you seems a little over the top.

@curious, I can agree on akyon but I'm not certain why. Toby's probably town though. I had the same gut feeling about akryon when reading over the end of day yesterday.

This is probably the first post of her’s that I think is decent. And even then, it is decent at best. The first part is still mostly WIFOM, and the second thought is more town-reads with little-to-no explanation.

@Curious, you can pick up the VCA after I die. It's kinda my thing.

As a side note, I wasn't trustinh NJ to hammer. Never trust a lurker to hamner.

You haven’t done much of anything with your VCA, so not sure how it’s kinda your thing. And I specifically and directly asked NJ, and he said he would do it. Why wouldn’t you trust that?

@Curious, you can pick up the VCA after I die. It's kinda my thing.

As a side note, I wasn't trustinh NJ to hammer. Never trust a lurker to hamner.

since I was gone at the time when you hammered I am not sure about this, how much time was left in the day when you hammered?

also, "VCA"? whats that? and why are you going to die?

As town, my VCA (vote count analysis) has generally been spot on in larges and any scumteam would fear that. Right now I want to sort scrambles and acyon.

There was less than a day when I hammered and I waited until I was out for the day to hammer.

More talk about how great your VCA is, but I am not seeing it at all. You have posted more about your VCA than you have actually done VCA.

UNVOTE: Amy

Nonetheless, going to rethink. I want people to propose alternatives; even if I'm right, Belisarius had two buddies.

Conftown. Amy is town too most likely.

Wow, now someone is CONFIRMED town? But I’m sure there is a good explanation right? Nope. And same with Amy-town call again.

Scrambles and acyon are the two I want to lynch.

Beautiful, no explanation. At least she has said

something

about scrambles prior, but nothing about me.

I'm happy with a CKD or Amy lynch at this stage. I need to reread them both at some stage while I will catch up. I might change my vote if necessary

Stahp. Both are likely town.

Hey, more town-claims with no explanation! Weird!

[acryon]

Sorry for the massive wall, but there has been a clear pattern in her play that needs to be pointed out. Let's also think for a second about what kind of person calls people town for no reason.

[acryon]

I haven't read the longer posts on this page thoroughly yet but I'm now reasonably sure that acryon is my preferred lynch.

PEDIT: Increasingly sure.

This strikes me as very odd. You certainly didn't have time to actually read the post I made, but somehow just that I made it increases your confidence of me being the best lynch. This pings.

[acryon]

I haven't read the longer posts on this page thoroughly yet but I'm now reasonably sure that acryon is my preferred lynch.

PEDIT: Increasingly sure.

This strikes me as very odd. You certainly didn't have time to actually read the post I made, but somehow just that I made it increases your confidence of me being the best lynch. This pings.

I read the short post after it in preview, not the long one in full (though I scanned a couple of the points made therein). My post was one which I decided to make on my walk home about an hour ago; you just happened to be posting in the meantime.

Fair enough. I will be interested to hear what you have to say both about your confidence in a lynch on me, as well as what you think of the case on Titus. Specifics would be helpful, especially for the latter.

[acryon]

Acryon, your case against Titus isn't valid. It's just complaints you have against his playstyle (ie. VCA)

My point is that she is

not even doing any analysis

. It's not a problem with her playstyle; it's a problem with her not actually saying anything. Unless your definition of VCA is throwing out naked reads and talking about how you're going to do VCA.

[acryon]

@acryon, ignoring my analysis does not make it go away.

I think you're confused at what the word analysis means. It is not simply spitting out a conclusion. It includes how you got to that conclusion, which you never seem interested in producing.

[acryon]

Hm. Pretty confident on two of (scrambles, acryon, CKD) as the final scummies. I think this day has revealed a lot.

I agree, but certainly not what you think it has. I think that at-most 1 of those three are scum, and even then both of them are very low on my list.

[acryon]

"hang on while I research the names of Titus' hydrae because

I can't remember

I'm making it up"

Why would he do this? You could just look at his post history to confirm. This makes no sense.

[acryon]

I didn't think so, but I wanted to make sure it was noted by all how terrible that was.

[acryon]

There are, like, loads of people who do that as town.

Not as much as she has.

His Titus case is all about her image, cookie-cutter statements that sound worthy ('no town would ever post a read without immediately backing it up; that would be [gasp]

anti-town

!') but aren't actually applied to how actual players approach the game of mafia.

Again, I never said there was an absolute rule, but it has always been about the

pattern

. Scum are never defined by one anti-town action, but patterns instead.

[acryon]

Regarding my playstyle shift, I tend to switch it up, as well as my involvement, based on what's happening in the game. Day 1, we all have a lot less to go off of, so I prefer to play devil's advocate and speak objectively in an effort to keep us from emotionally riding a mis-lynch train. When the days get later, my reads, as well as everyone else's, get stronger, so you're going to hear more about them and they will be said with more conviction.

[acryon]

There are, like, loads of people who do that as town.

Not as much as she has.

Wrong.

Feel free to point me to any player in this game who has posted as many naked town-reads as she has.

[acryon]

Regarding my playstyle shift, I tend to switch it up, as well as my involvement, based on what's happening in the game. Day 1, we all have a lot less to go off of, so I prefer to play devil's advocate and speak objectively in an effort to keep us from emotionally riding a mis-lynch train. When the days get later, my reads, as well as everyone else's, get stronger, so you're going to hear more about them and they will be said with more conviction.

I'm going to meta you to see if this statement holds water.

You will find what I've described. I almost always get scum-read early on by at least a couple people for sounding "too town".

[acryon]

Feel free to point me to any player in this game who has posted as many naked town-reads as she has.

A sample size of 'in this game' means nothing; you're saying that no town player goes around playing like that. If true, that would be a universal thing, and I'm saying that I see loads of players on this site with similar approaches - including Titus.

Everything is within the context of a game; you can't try to exclude that. In the game we are in, no one has done it nearly as much as her, and given the rest of her posting history, her numerous naked reads are especially bad.

[acryon]

@CDB: Let's flip the script then. Why do you think she is town?

[acryon]

Everything is within the context of a game; you can't try to exclude that. In the game we are in, no one has done it nearly as much as her, and given the rest of her posting history, her numerous naked reads are especially bad.

'Within the context of this game'

does not matter

. You are alleging that no town player would do this; that is an argument pertaining to a player's overall approach to participation in a game, which means that it is necessarily a universal argument, that could be applied in any given game, not just this one. 'She's doing Thing X more so than everyone else in this game'

is not the same

as 'She's more likely to do Thing X as scum than town'.

Stop saying "overall approach." Her naked reads this game have nothing to do with an approach; the vast majority of her posting is fluffy reads without reason. That's not an approach; that's scum trying to appear active and involved, but ultimately offering nothing.

Wow. Most of my townreads in this game haven't bern naked at all.

Y'all should realize acryonis very defensive for a guy with zero votes.

Interesting, because IIRC I quoted a whole bunch of them that were, in fact, naked.

[acryon]

CDB - Are you trying to tell me that posting without actual substance with such repetition like Titus has isn't a scum-tell on any level?

[acryon]

@CDB: Let's flip the script then. Why do you think she is town?

My argument is not that she's town, it's that you are not presenting a single good reason why she is more likely to be scum than town. I am arguing that the things that she is doing that you are calling scummy are in fact pretty damn null.

However, separately to that, I am leaning town on Titus mainly because I actually think

it's relatively easy to figure out the thought processes behind her stated reads if you actually consider them

. I've also already mentioned that, if Amy were to flip scum, I would think it more likely that Titus would be town in that scenario, though that's beside the current point.

Really? Go ahead and explain some of those for me then. Especially if she is scum, then you "figuring out the thought processes" is completely wrong anyway.

[acryon]

Most people don't go out of their way to make a big spiel about why they are town reading another player. That's one of the problems I had with Riddle's case against CDK: Riddle was comparing CDK's in-depth scum cases with CDK's less-in-depth town reads. Apples and oranges.

For a minimalist playstile like Titus has, it's not uncommon to see "<other player> is town" and not much else. So what? Who cares? If that other player flips scum, then it becomes relevant as to why Titus was reading that other player as town. If Titus later decides that that other player is scum, then it becomes relevant as to why Titus was previously reading that other player as town and why the switch. Until either of those events happen, though, a naked town call is null.

But it wasn't just her town-reads. She wasn't providing anything for her scum-reads either. It's just that her town-reads were

so

prevalent and never had even a single reason behind them.

[acryon]

She called you scum after quoting a particular post of yours, so it's not hard to deduce why she thought you were scum (the reason: that post).


Working from memory.

Sorry to say that didn't happen.

[acryon]

She called you scum after quoting a particular post of yours, so it's not hard to deduce why she thought you were scum (the reason: that post).


Working from memory.

Sorry to say that didn't happen.

I beg to differ:

Kudos to both Beli and one of CDB's posts for instantly making everyone vote for me. I'm not even going to bother right now because clearly I'm getting lynched. Yes I'm giving up, yes it's bad, but I completely lose it when people vote me when I'm town. WIFOM alert, but as scum I tend to actually play to my wincon in these situations and try to get the wagon off me.

Examples, please!

I'd also like to point out that it seems very odd that someone would "completely lose it" when people vote them as town. Multiple townies are usually mislynched every game. Does it suck? Yes, but it happens every game. It seems odd to have such a reaction to something that happens

all the time

.

Probably scum. I lose it frequently as town is I am the mislynch. My losing it is usually relative to the amount of confidence I have in my team nailing the other scum.

So then her reason why she is ok to lynch me is because I thought Amy losing it in the manner she did to be scummy? That's even worse.

[acryon]

Most people don't go out of their way to make a big spiel about why they are town reading another player. That's one of the problems I had with Riddle's case against CDK: Riddle was comparing CDK's in-depth scum cases with CDK's less-in-depth town reads. Apples and oranges.

For a minimalist playstile like Titus has, it's not uncommon to see "<other player> is town" and not much else. So what? Who cares? If that other player flips scum, then it becomes relevant as to why Titus was reading that other player as town. If Titus later decides that that other player is scum, then it becomes relevant as to why Titus was previously reading that other player as town and why the switch. Until either of those events happen, though, a naked town call is null.

But it wasn't just her town-reads. She wasn't providing anything for her scum-reads either. It's just that her town-reads were

so

prevalent and never had even a single reason behind them.

I have been providing them.

Look at my iso. You can literally read a chain of thought. But hey keep selling the useless discredit.

Also, you cannot read the chain of thought. And anyone that thinks you can is doing some *creative* dot-connecting, which is probably propped up by their own thoughts rather than what you have actually provided.

[acryon]

@acryon:

As I read that post, the reason why she thought you were "probably scum" was because she thought you were manufacturing a reason why Amy should be lynched, a reason that was based on a particular way town should play that was contrary to her own experiences. (The "probably scum" part of her post was referring to you, the remainder of her post was referring to Amy's play and how Titus herself usually plays.)

And herein lies one of the problems with Titus. She isn't actually saying anything; she is letting people like you and CDB say everything for her. It's perfect, because then she never has to be made accountable for what she is pushing.

[acryon]

acryon, please take a deep breath and consider this: Unless I am scum (and your posts previous to this argument of ours, as well as this, imply that you do not think that I am), then I do not have a reason to lie to you when I tell you that this sort of behaviour strikes me as within reasonable expectations for both Titus as an individual and for a not-insignificant portion of players generally on mafiascum. I have played with Titus before.

If you are town, then it is worth your while to seriously consider that I may know what I am talking about here.

But I think it's also worthwhile for you to consider the fact that you could be wrong. I am considering everything you're saying; it would be stupid not to. But I'm also not convinced yet. At this point, I still think she is scum.

[acryon]

I see my post has caused some conversation. Interesting. I would like to change the point of discussion to this briefly so we figure out where the confusion lies, and to also determine how people (mainly scrambles and acryon) asses joke posts for analysis purposes.

Scrambles and acryon specifically, does my joke post (here for reference) change your read(s) of me from null to scum? I would specifically like you to comment which of the below is more likely, and why:
1) I wasn't joking in that post, but quickly said I was after one person brought it up.
2) It was just a joke. Joking's something I would expect town to do.
3) It was just a joke. Joking's something I would expect scum to do.
4) It's not alignment indicative.

No, it does not change my read of you from null to scum. I think it does earn you a non-zero amount of scum-points, but not anything extremely significant. I don't think it was any of those 4. I don't think it was "just a joke," but I also am not dumb enough to think it was serious. Joke or not, it was a way to paint scrambles in a negative light, but I'm not convinced at this point whether or not that motivation was town- or scum-driven.

[acryon]

But I think it's also worthwhile for you to consider the fact that you could be wrong. I am considering everything you're saying; it would be stupid not to. But I'm also not convinced yet. At this point, I still think she is scum.

I've literally said that I could be wrong*, it's just that you're not presenting anything that stands out to me as any kind of real reason to think her scummy beyond generic complaints about her approach, which I think is pretty untenable for reasons stated, and your continued defence of it with nonsensical arguments like this perplex me to the extent that I think it more likely that you are scum than that you are open-minded town.

*My argument is that you are attacking behaviour which is not alignment-indicative, rather than that you are attacking behaviour which is strictly more likely to come from town than scum.

You don't have to like my argument, and I certainly think that both my lack of interaction and your wealth of interaction with Titus are distorting each of our views to some extent. The longer Titus stays alive, the worse off I think we will be, but as long as my argument is remembered at a later time, I think I've done my job.

And for the sake of stupid semantics, you didn't

literally

state that you could be wrong.

[acryon]

acryon, you quoted the first part of this GC post and responded to it, but not the second paragraph. Both he and I have now asked questions about your relationship to the Amy wagon (mine quoted in the spoiler here). Please could you answer them?

Whoops. I definitely didn't see that. I didn't vote for her, because there was already enough pressure on her, so I didn't think a pressure vote was warranted. I think her reactions were scummy, but I am not confident enough that I feel comfortable seeing her lynched.

[acryon]

I don't believe it's a case of liking your argument or not, I believe that I have explained objectively why said argument is invalid.

Invalid based on your experience with mafia/Titus.

[acryon]

That being said, I recognize that there may be more to consider, so I am willing to step off of this train for now.

[acryon]

I don't believe it's a case of liking your argument or not, I believe that I have explained objectively why said argument is invalid.

Invalid based on your experience with mafia/Titus.

No, not the anecdotal part of it. I'm talking about this post right here.

You argued that, on the context of this game, Titus doing what she was doing to a greater extent than anyone else in this game made her scummy. It is this argument that I believe has been explicitly debunked in the linked post.

Well it is both. She is both doing it (what I believe to be) a scummy amount and doing it a lot more than anyone in this game, which, combined with the rest of her ISO, I think makes her scummy. The problem is there are no universal rules of scum, especially if the scum is a strong player, so both sides of this are shaded by personal experience and feeling.

As I said, I am willing to step back from this for now, as I don't think this Titus-pushing is doing much to help town at the moment. I would rather spend our time developing other reads.

[acryon]

That's all well and good, but who would you like to see lynched today?

At this point, I'm not sure. We still have 5 days, so I'm hoping to get a better read in the next 1-3.

[acryon]

@Acryon can you please explain why you went from not seeing titus scummy to calling him out today? Yes I saw post 1099, just wondering why you called it out today and saw nothing wrong day 2.

Sure thing. At the point that day 2 ended, Titus only had 8 posts, so it wouldn't make any sense to have a problem with her posting at that point, but she has posted 30+ times since then. Once she started posting more day 3 is when I recognized what I did as a pattern.

[acryon]

@GreenCrayons

What do you think of RoyalApe's reads? Especially near the end, there wasn't much from him, but specifically his reads in 327: "AFF, acryon and CKD in my goodish pile. chaos is in my scumish pile"

[acryon]

@Acryon can you please explain why you went from not seeing titus scummy to calling him out today? Yes I saw post 1099, just wondering why you called it out today and saw nothing wrong day 2.

Sure thing. At the point that day 2 ended, Titus only had 8 posts, so it wouldn't make any sense to have a problem with her posting at that point, but she has posted 30+ times since then. Once she started posting more day 3 is when I recognized what I did as a pattern.

You mean a pattern of hunting you and scrambles? Your post deliberately leaves out what this pattern is making it vague and worthless. It also encourages the reader to fill ina hypothetical pattern and you could agree to anything.

Are you kidding? I spent several pages discussing the pattern already.

Sorry for the massive wall, but there has been a clear

pattern

in her play that needs to be pointed out. Let's also think for a second about what kind of person calls people town for no reason.

Again, I never said there was an absolute rule, but it has always been about the

pattern

. Scum are never defined by one anti-town action, but

patterns

instead.

[acryon]

Are you even paying attention?

[acryon]

Not only that, but you use your inattention to try to make me look scummy? Come on.

[acryon]

@GreenCrayons

What do you think of RoyalApe's reads? Especially near the end, there wasn't much from him, but specifically his reads in 327: "AFF, acryon and CKD in my goodish pile. chaos is in my scumish pile"

Ape himself didn't give much of a reason for his reads, so I take your question as simply asking me how do I feel about those players.

I was actually asking what you thought of his reads and how you think he got there, although I do actually greatly appreciate your insight on those players as well.

[acryon]

@acryon:

do you still want me to do that? I only skimmed what Ape posted on my read through, and haven't looked back, but I don't recall him posting in a manner that was particularly insightful to divine what he was thinking but not saying. I don't know how fruitful my attempt will be.

Since you and CDB showed how easy it was to explain the reasoning behind Titus' posts, I think you would do fine with Ape's since his posts are at least as insightful as Titus'. I think it may be helpful to clear up that half of your slot.

[acryon]

I've been interested in looking back over some people. First up is Chaos:
-63 from Chaos didn’t feel genuine at all. First part is parroting and the second is a total strawman.
-Said he would post a reads-list several times and never really delivered. This isn’t inherently scummy, but it’s worth noting.
-236

sounds

ok, but at the same time, it is still delightfully vague. Again promises a reads-list.
-294 is the best of his posts so far by a long-shot. The statements on Skelda being town, as well as NJ being scummy both make sense.
-500 is now a step in the wrong direction. He looked to be trying to stop the Skelda wagon in 294, but is unfortunately voting Skelda here and for a pretty weak reason IMO. Also throws out a weak defense of Beli.
-511 I really did not buy at all. To me, it definitely didn’t seem like scum giving up, and I have probably seen town give up just as much as scum in the face of a wagon.
-568 actually has a pretty decent reasoning to vote AFF. Since a lot of Chaos’ posts are so far apart, it’s hard to tell where his mindset was that causes his reads to change. This makes him overall a bit difficult to assess.
-572 is bad, especially looking back after the Beli flip. His reasons for defending Beli have all been really weak and vague IMO.
-630: I don’t really like how he backed off of the AFF vote so easily when confronted by her. Total lack of pressure.
-631 is another weird post. Now says that he sees how people think Beli was scummy, but still doesn’t think we should vote him. Why exactly?
-635: Just said that he sees how people think Beli is scummy, but then asks for another run-down on why. This just seemed off to me.

I am interested especially in CDB's thoughts on this.

[acryon]

Riddleton:
-726 is what makes me think Riddleton is almost definitely town. Good analysis of someone who turned out to be scum.
-801 he questions one of my comments about Beli being scummy, but is still voting Beli. This reads very town to me. He doesn’t have anything to gain as scum by disliking someone else’s argument on the person he is already voting for.
-803 is all pretty astute analysis on CKD IMO.
-825: He prods Titus for real info, which I also wish I would have done earlier.

This one is pretty quick, especially since your replacement slots said approximately nothing. The things they said that were even a little scummy I will happily write off as newbie given the content you have provided.

Riddleton is my top town-read.

[acryon]

I haven't got time to make or fully read a big post at the moment (at work) but I can already tell you that I won't be going into detail on my predecessor. I do not have anything that he left over for me to read of his thoughts and I cannot speak to how he thinks. All you would get from me is an attempt to read a player whose alignment I already know and in whose being defended I have a vested interest. You're going to have to make your own conclusions about the two of us though, for what it's worth, I can confirm that our slot is town.

Fair. At the very least, I know it is easy for us to forget about the previous play of replacements, so I think it's important to bring it back up for the sake of proper discussion.