Open 573: C9++

[MTD]

Uh, Death stare, was that a dayvig attempt?

also VOTE: Nero

/sheeping sthar

[MTD]

Also you will never be able to PL someone like that nero.
You gotta fake a scumread on them and convince everyone that you are lynching scum instead of policy lynching.

Lol.

[MTD]

Simply not understanding the setup is null.

I wrote the same thing. And C9++ is not an easily-comprehend-able-ish setup, after all.

But

he said he isn't new to mafia...
I agree however that this is no tell.

I am not sure about him currently, he sure hasn't acted mega-towny, though.

Wanting to NL is normal for people coming from other sites.
Btw
@wguerts: You say we shouldn't lynch someone yet, and attack people for voting because you want to put pressure on people first. Just fyi, the most prominent way of pressuring people happens to be votes. And no, lynches don't happen because of 2 or 3 votes.

in general: It is quite obvious noone currently wants to quick-lynch anyone, so quit whining about it pls.

Aneninen's looks somewhat scummy to me. His posts are nearly all fluff, the only things he has really said about other people is

Wgeurts' play is indeed a bit strange, especially because he said that he wasn't new to Online Mafia though, I think he simply didn't undertstand the setup.

Basically saying that there is nothing interesting there and

MonkeyMan is changing his vote all the time.

Which is damn obvious.
In general I have the impression he is trying to make a good impression without risking anything. I don't like that.

VOTE: Aneninen

Death Stare is prob town, dunno about the other hydrae.
I don't really like GrayFox so far, but there's little to go on there.

Also I just realized that massive is

old

.

[MTD]

La wow! I've just got a vote for fluffing!

However, you're saying that I'm pointing out obvious things. But, what else should I post about? Apart from those things, most of the posts are nulls and fluffs.

any point here I am missing?
Look at the other people who have posted. You won't find as little content in their posts. And I don't really believe in "nulls", every post can be indicative. We have 5 pages of information, don't act like there was nothing to post about.

(sigh) okay, let's talk about something. Why do you dislike Grayfox? Getting town vibes from DeathStare and the "

if deathstare flips mafia you are in for it"

part? (27 and 69) Or not realizing that the Deadline was bugged?

Yes.
Mostly an overall impression, though.

As for Wguert's No Lynch intent: I don't know much about other sites, you might be right here. I didn't even talked about that, I merely explained him the maths of this setup. Oh, you can add that post to your "pointing out obvious things" list. Wait, no, that was a fluff. ^_^

I never claimed you said anything about that, I was only talking about wguerts there.

Do you think that Massive is old? Watch out, I'm nearly as old as him. ^_^

I am not sure we mean the same thing.

[MTD]

Indeed but even a panicking town can give off information, take for instance who defends him, or who doesn't. Later info like this can be used to find connections.

I... I still don't see why you think voting someone would be a nice tool of pressuring people as well? I mean sure, questions are another, but it's not like a single vote on someone is a much more serious threat?

56 is pretty obviosly trolling and an attempted witty reply to DS. I don't know if its sad or hilarious that you find that scummy.

Am I the only one who has missed the joke?

apparently.

[MTD]

I... I still don't see why you think voting someone would be a nice tool of pressuring people as well?

*wouldn't

[MTD]

He meant my Mafiascum age.

exactly.

No idea why you assumed I knew his real age.
Or why you do.

[MTD]

@MTD: his real age is on his page.

uhm.... is it?

[MTD]

Well, there actually is the possibility to change votes, you know....

[MTD]

Just explain yourself itsn't that hard if you're town.

really, this isn't that hard.
Hint: there is a difference between reasons for voting someone in particular and reasons for placing a vote (regardless of the one you vote for).

[MTD]

MTD, 207 – did that mean that you were townreading Sthar8? Or did that mean that you were understanding Sthar8's gameplay?

It means His post wasn't that hard to understand. Nothing more.

Also I hate your reasons for your scumleans on massive and stavgorin (or whatever the name is).

[MTD]

So, I've got home. First of all, as I promised, I would explain why I scumread "early lurkers".

Warning: a long post about my theory.

Spoiler:

This experience is based upon both IRL and online games.

There is a concept called

Vacuum Activity

. You can read about it eg. here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_activity
The short summary of the phenomenon is the following (taken from the page above):

"Vacuum activities (or vacuum behaviours) are innate, fixed action patterns of animal behaviour that are performed in the absence of the external stimuli (releaser) that normally elicit them.[1] This type of abnormal behaviour shows that a key stimulus is not always needed to produce an activity.[2] Vacuum activities can be difficult to identify because it is necessary to determine whether any stimulus triggered the behaviour."

How is that concept related to Mafia?

As the game starts, townies start scumhunting sooner or later. They examine everyone and everything – but, since they know nothing about the others, they can't trust other players and they can find anything suspicious. If this process is going well (or, if they're lucky), they can spot the scums because they're uninterested in scumhunting. However, the less information have the townies the harder is the scumhunt. Without enough information townies can skim over things while they think that insignificant bits are very important; they can misread or misinterpret posts.

Doh, we all know that ^_^

But, what happens if there are no active scums present in the thread? The townies

STILL

do the same because they

KNOW

there

MUST

be scums in the game. Regardless of the fact that there are NO scumposts, they are paranoid and start scumreading

each other

! This leads to town-vs-town fights and eventually, to mislynches.

That is what I call the Vacuum Activity of the town

.
Scums, if lurking, can use this phenomenon to their advantage. If they lurk early-game, by the time they become active, there are vehement town-vs-town fights and they only need to "pick a side" in these fights, join a wagon, whatever. (Sometimes these lurkers get accused or voted by some but, since there are no instant reactions from the scums, these cases rarely turn into temperamental fights.) Even worse: no matter that a town-vs-town leads to a mislynch, those who were counter-wagoned still will be scumread during the forthcoming days too. (Something like "soooo, XXXXX flipped town, see? I knew that it would happen because YYYYY is scum and he/she pushed that wagon/voteflipped all the time/flailed a lot/etc.")

I've seen this Vacuum Activity in online games too but, once I was in a bastard IRL game. The mod launched a setup whithout scums but, noone knew that. During the Nights the mod killed players (and asked everyone who died not to "spoil the fun"). As the game processed sooner or later everyone alive lost their nerves and we ended up in a game which was more vehement and agressive than anything I'd seen in Mafia before!
This story proved that Vacuum Activity exists.

In this particular game, relatively little "real time" has passed since the start but, the players who I mentioned in my read list had provided little or no content

while they were active elsewhere on this site

! Any of them could have done this intentionally because of being scum! (I've already spotted scum by this way.)
The differences between the three players are the following:
Stavrogin posted NOTHING, not even a random vote. (One contentless post has arrived since my readlist.) It's super-scummy.
Massive had very few posts with little content. A bit less scummy but it's still scummy. I saw that he's posted recently, I'm going to read those posts as soon as I can.
50Shades can be just as scummy (more posts but very little real content) but it's much harder for me to decide the cornerstone of the case: being active elsewhere. I have very little experience with hydras. So far I've met two: one of them asked for a replacement on Day1, the other one was my Mason-buddy – why should I have read them? ^_^ And they got killed Night1 By little experience I mean: how is a hydra played? Do they have an agreement who posts at what time, or do they switch their heads by a certain time period or does it depend on the heads' timezones? I bet all hydras play in a different way, aren't they? Also, are they allowed to PM each other or not? Etc, etc... In short: how should check their activity if one head is active elsewhere while the other one isn't?

Also remember,

these scumreads may change later easily

– the catch-up of a previously inactive player is a vital tell. A town-catchup if detailed, contains a lot of reads, even if those reads are wrong. If it's short (eg. due to laziness) townies usually get active later. A detailed scum-catchup

looks like

a real one but it contains no new information; it's usually full of nothing, and/or parroting others' reads. (And they usually jump on an already-existing wagon against one of the easy-looking lynches).

I'm going to read the new posts too; as soon as I can.

Ok... this breaks down to
"I think scum would benefit from lurking, so the lurkers are probably scum."
I don't even know what to say to this.
One thing: That logic doesn't work, since lurking has often been called a scumtell, to the effect that it isn't one (anymore?).

[MTD]

I will get the lynch eventually.

I love the ambiguity.

[MTD]

but yeah
the recent activityfromMTDhas been really
active lurky

truth, this.

I'm kinda out of this right now, will do some reading.

[MTD]

So.

GreyFoxxx:
Doesn't do anything except:
-he is scumreading wguerts for reasons that are meh:

Spoiler:

Guys what the heck, if we go for a random lynch we could end up killing a special. I suggest we go for a.no lynch to give the specials one night (if they are there) to start their work. Also if we all just bandwagon the Scum could just hide and join it. What do we learn with a town death?
Little.
VOTE: No Lynch

Oh man if deathstare flips mafia you are in for it

This just makes no sense. You are just

assuming

that he especially wanted to defend Death stare with that, also his (admittedly mostly later) posts make it quite obvious, that this is not the case. And even if it was that wouldn't really tell us much about his alignment, except if we assume he is a really bad player.

Hmmm... Monkey man is playing differently this game a quick search of his posts shows. Though DeathState seemingly not caring and changing his vote to MonkeyMan when seemingly under fire is odd. No ones going for a no lynch so I'll go with VOTE: DeathStare.
I honestly can't see how the Sthar vote is logical though, sam for Aneninen vote. Could you clarify those votes possibly?
Also we shouldn't let stavrogin slip our view, he's been online plenty of times to post but only posted some "bed, post latet" stuff.

Very unnecessary ambiguity. Strawman arguements. Im still scumhunting outside of him, but he is my best vote right now.

Uhm, what please? Where is ambiguity in there?
Strawman arguments?
Nah.
Also says he is his best vote

without ever voting him

.

-and he is having a lengthy stupid discussion with sthar about

a post he misunderstood

Can you please provide thoughts or anything on some of the other players in this game?

Death Stare:
The first post with content was 102, which is kinda late, but hey, this is an Ank-Gif hydra we're talking about.
I like their case on Monkey I think, although it seems to mostly be based on his interaction with wguerts, which is nearly necessarily going to be weird IMO, so I agree with a slight scumlean, but don't really see it as strong.
Not much else.

Nero:
For the wguerts case see above, but at least he puts a bit more sense into it.
In general this is town in my book.
Solid scumhunting efforts, follows up on his questions etc.

Monkey:
See DS.
Also:

Spoiler:

Well I don't want to be lynched so let me conform to what you all expect of me.

I think Wgeurts is new scum. The no lynch vote really bothers me and them going after me and Nero saying we are blood hungry. I had already explained what they deadline everyone was looking at was and that fact that the real deadline was in the first post. Even if the deadline for the day was the 1 day one since there were two different deadlines it would have only been fair for the mod to give us a little more time to do something since we were debating on the deadline itself.

From what I understood Wgeurts took my saying we should lynch someone, which was a joke since deadline was in like 2 weeks, as me actually wanting to flash lynch someone. This was not true but I guess it could be an honest mistake. Wguerts is just making mistakes I think a new scum person would make. They aren't concrete in any way but they are what I got and by golly I am going to pursue them.

Something that really bothers me is people writing off someone who is being scummy as just being new. Yes new people make mistakes but that isn't a reason to not lynch someone. You learn from mistakes. That would be like no lynching Ika for hammering whenever the hell they feel like it. It is always anti-town and a legit reason to lynch someone. People should not get free passes no matter what experience they have or you have with them. Someone who is being scummy/anti-town might just be scum/anti-town.

I really don't like this post.
He starts off with a

really

unnecessary/strange remark.
Then he states wguerts made newbie mistakes, which then miraculously transform to newbie

scum

mistakes.

Look, he is not being scummy....

As DS said, his reasons/not-reasons for voting/unvoting/not-revoting are very strange.

Votes Anen for

obviously

just misunderstanding a post

That's it.
Looks like my scumread on him is actually stronger than I thought above.

I still don't really like Anen, but him continuing posting in that very same style makes me question my scumread there a bit. I will have to read his prior game(s?).

moving my vote for now.
VOTE: Foxxx
Other vote I would be happy with is Monkey, but I'm somewhat reluctant to put him a t L-2 at the moment

More tomorrow I guess.

[MTD]

oh joy so now mtd's scumlist mirrors... mine

/fart

Uh, it does?
I don't even know if I read your readlist yet, lol.

[MTD]

Uhm.. hydra somethingsomething?

[MTD]

Uhm.. hydra somethingsomething?

SHUTUP MTD

alsways telling me what to do you and yoR big sideburnsand your pipe

QUIT JUDgING ME

nah, this is too much fun.

[MTD]

urgh.

@MOD: V/LA tomorrow through Wednesday.

I'll try to get something more done tonight, tho.

[MTD]

One quick response to MTD. Did you even read 297? I wasn't reading wguerts, I was answering something he brought up regarding my vote. It's so obvious it's almost scummy that you scum read me on it. It's also so obvious I don't think I scum would try to flat out deceive the town like that.

Ok, I get it. I am not sure you (or me) understood wguerts post correctly then, though. I though he meant the votes

of

sthar and Anen, you apparently thought he meant the ones

on

them.

I wasn't the only person to get caught up on wguerts no Lynch post. He explained his self and I left it alone.

The post explains your other point about my early game read on sthar as well. Why is it so hard to see me pushing sthar?

You are right that I have tunneled him, so I'm going to reread everything and try and get other reads.

It isn't scummy for me to hard push sthar if I think he might be scum. My willingness to prove my point isn't a good enough reason for you to vote me.

Yup, that explains that I guess, only thing I have a problem with is that the original push on sthar by you was about a post you obviously misunderstood (as I said before), that

not really

being a good reason for one. The rest of the discussion was in my eyes mostly a waste of time and space, as discussions based on misunderstandings tend to be. But yeah, that's not enuogh atmo.UNVOTE:

@Anen: I would be happy about those links.

[MTD]

Grayfoxx your trying so hard to look town it's almost scummy.

Uhm, where is he trying to look town? Can't see it...

[MTD]

So I am back,
won't read much today, though, catchup coming at some time different that now.

[MTD]

Well shit.
I completely forgot about this.
I will try to catch up -.-

[MTD]

Ok, I read some stuff, I will now try to go back to questions directed at me, hope I find them.

50 shades: Why aren't you voting me?

[MTD]

Btw Shades is town and I don't get why people are voting there.

[MTD]

In general I have the impression he is trying to make a good impression without risking anything. I don't like that.

MTD?

The vote here is because you think fluffing is "trying to make a good impression without risking anything". I think that there isn't a player in the entire planet who thinks that they can "make a good impression" by blatantly and obviously not doing shit. There are some players who maybe think they can get by with not doing shit, but literally no one goes "i'm gonna do nothing but fluff and everyone is going to find me sooo town".

Your read on Death Stare is also weird and I don't like it.

I didn't mean that. I meant by being extra nice and also

acting

as if doing shit (look he even did PBPA!)

Look at the other people who have posted. You won't find as little content in their posts. And I don't really believe in "nulls", every post can be indicative. We have 5 pages of information, don't act like there was nothing to post about.

Death Stare.
The person you were townreading.
I also don't think we posted shit for content by that point but I might have a horrible memory of my own posting!

Yes, I do/did think Death had more content than Anen at that point. That

might

be mostly because of 104 being fresh in mind though.

Yes.

If Death Stare is town, why is the "if Death Stare flips mafia you are in for it!!!" bit scummy?

Because it doesn't make much sense and looks like a setup for an easy mislynch later.

@MTD: his real age is on his page.

uhm.... is it?

Is there a reason why you didn't respond to the content he posted in his last few posts and instead hyper focused on this discussion?

Uhm, because this was directed at me?
Other than that, no.

376: MTD: How are you against Monkeyman for wanting to lynch wiggerts for the newbie nonsense, but Nero gets a pass for the same thing? You even hide a bunch against Monkeyman behind a spoiler. Was Nero's thought process on the issue really THAT much better? And even so, isn't the fact that the conclusion was wrong matter more than the process?

Thing is, this wasn't the only thing nero had done.
I did say I didn't like it from nero (well, more precisely, I did say I don't like the push on wguerts in general.
Also, if you read the post again, the reason I scumread Monkey was not because of the wguerts push.
The spoiler was just so the quote doesn't clutter up the post (same thing with the one for foxxx).

Also I have no idea why Anen puts so much effort into defending me and it confuses me.

Also also, shades I think I need a real reason for yer scumread on me.

there's also our old friend mtd here who spat out a case on grayfoxx, bailed on it the next post (even though the fundamental question of WHY THE LIVING FUCK ARE YOU TUNNELING STHAR OVER THE STUPIDEST SHIT?) remains woefully unanswered, aaaaaaaaaaand starts making the trip back to the active-lurkerdom from whence he came

Yeah, that guy sucks we should kill him one day

also, TSO is saying some pretty strange stuff.

[MTD]

reads maybe at a later point, yay.

[MTD]

Btw Shades is town and I don't get why people are voting there.

Why do you think this?

Well, show me why they are not.
They are putting in effort, not just going with the popular things, asking good questions...
I mean sure they are experienced and could

maybe

be faking that, but as long as I have no reason to assume that they are, I am definitely against lynching them.

[MTD]

I've only looked into the chat for a couple of minutes and I'm catching up later (or next morning). Right now I think this is the only thing which needs an answer from my side:

MTD:

"Also I have no idea why Anen puts so much effort into defending me and it confuses me."

I already explained it long time ago and you might not remember for that (or you weren't here at all?) so I'm telling it again: I have a general experience that the first one who votes for me because I'm fluffing and producing too little content is town.

I second the statement that this is beautiful but not good.

This has worked a couple of times so far. Also, I thought 50Shades' case had been shyt and they'd been pushing it for a while regardless of the fact that you hadn't been active at all.

Well, actually they did

not

really push it in that time, which is a reason for me thinking they are town, since they were rather

not

going with the road that can lead to an easy mislynch.

Why do you think they're town anyway?

See above & above post.

By the way, DeathStare are still voting for you. What's your opinion about that?

I dunno, have they ever stated why they are besides sheeping shades?
Pedit: Well this concern seems to have vanished.

[MTD]

^^^^^

you should

like

vote massive with me

Why not TSO?
I might be in for that, too.
massive not so much.

(look, look, I made a haiku)

[MTD]

Yeah, I dunno, I have to reread him, was just that from the top of my mind I remembered to think he is town.

Pedit: Like seriously? That post is just

[MTD]

Yeah, I dunno, I have to reread him, was just that from the top of my mind I remembered to think he is town.

Pedit: Like seriously? That post is just

If you want, you can vote me.

I voted Sthar because it was the right thing to do - he is active lurking. I knew I'd take abuse for it and I knew it could potentially cause my own lynch.

I still don't care. Again, I've also got around you as scum in the past.

Ok. VOTE: TSO (DISCLAIMER: This is by no means something I am sure of but I figured I should use my vote somewhere)

I never talked about your vote on sthar, did I?

This is like the worst argument ever.

[MTD]

prod dodge, sorry

[MTD]

Ok, that NL was terrible and I do take some responsibility for it, I wasn't aware deadline was so close...

[MTD]

MonkeyMan post good post.

That wguerts vote was so damn opportunistic...

[MTD]

ok, right now I think either Anen or wguerts is scum, but i don't know which of the two...

I have a bit of catching up to do (again) so I will write more when I actually know what's going on at the moment.

[MTD]

Argh, why do I keep forgetting about this? Catching up right now.

[MTD]

nah, 9 pages or something.

From first skim I still think there is scum in {wguerts, anen} and that massive is

probably

town.
I don't like daves too much, but some things he said made sense.
The hydrae do all look somewhat town to me, but I can't really read hydrae well.
What happened to all the sthar-hate?

I like Brian's catchup, but I didn't like the slot yesterday, so I'll have to see how that develops.

[MTD]

prod received.

[MTD]

Ok, I am pretty much read up now.

I wouldn't support a sthar lynch, I wouldn't support a massive lynch.

I do support a wguerts lynch.

VOTE: wguerts

L-2

[MTD]

Ok, so. I am clueless again.

We should massclaim tomorrow.

[MTD]

Monkeyman is scum.

Discuss.

-Ank

I can definitely see this in terms of interaction.
The only thing MM ever said about shades it a townread without any reasoning or explanation.
It's p common for newbscum to ignore their partners like that.
Shades' interaction with Monkey

does

read strange as well.

[MTD]

EBWOP: *is

[MTD]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

MonkeyMan, it is incredible how much nonsense you talk.

[MTD]

Still, I am not

entirely

sold yet.

[MTD]

MONKEY, how do

you

explain the missing kill

s

?

[MTD]

Hm so I don't know right now...
both explanations given so far don't make

that

much sense IMO.
I think the most probable thing is that either N1 or N2 an SK's bulletproof was popped.

[MTD]

Self-voting outside of scum self-hammering is anti-town, that's why.

The demand also has yet to be fulfilled, so I will not accept a lynch at this point.

GIF and I are still in the process of syncing. Our reads have significantly progressed since daystart.

Why the hell do scum care if they are anti-town? Also, you just said you haven't voted yourself because you can't hammer yet said only scum should do that. You just claimed you were scum.

lolno, try reading.

So now, right now just about everything is possible rolewise?
with DS and MM, anything is possible (again).
I am lost on this.

[MTD]

MonkeyMan: I'd have to talk to GIF to give a better answer, but off the top of my head, I would say Heartless or MTD.

No idea why I would be killed at this point... (don't explain though)

Lack of Heartless is saddening.

-Ank

/hasn't said a word to us since the beginning of the game

el-oh-el

VOTE: deathstare

Uh, can you please say something about that? Is there any

reasoning

to this vote?

You want to know how it should be super obvious this is a scum lynch? The lynch hasn't happened yet and scum would easily be willing to lynch town based off of a RB claimed block.

Why would scum put another vote on the wagon to make it L-1 when they can equally well wait for the possibility to hammer? (yes I think one scum may very well be on there already (counting SK as town for the moment))

Is it just me, or is this trying REALLLLY hard to avoid having to make a stand on Monkey / DS?

No comment on me not taking a stance on it?

The problem is, roleblocker "guilty" is a lot more subjective than cop guilty. It's easy to see why Monkey wants to be right, because then he's caught a scum and is helping contribute to the town win. It's easy to see why HE believes in the black-and-white nature of his action. But that doesn't override previous town feelings about Death Stare (for me) and his case feels very much like he's trying to shoehorn anything in to prove his closely-held belief of a guilty result.

I don't really understand this paragraph.
Are you just saying you think MM overestimates the RB utility?

[MTD]

fucked up tags, you'll get it

[MTD]

GIF finds it very likely that Nero is SK if we have one, so it makes sense that he'd rather not resolve this WIFOM immediately.

yes, I'm obviously sk and my motivation to not get a claimed rber lynched/ sk suspect lynched is what?

Tell GIF to start using his brain.

DS is a SK suspect?

[MTD]

Uhm, I don't see it i think.

[MTD]

Too many silent people.

The

only

way there can be missing kills, without MonkeyMan's roleblock having hit scum, is additional town PRs. And if there is even one more, there

must

be

at least

three to give us a total of at least 5. The only setups with a godfather are 0-2 T's (5+ power roles) and 5-7 T's. (0-2 power roles)

Isn't there still the possibility that the RB claim was false?
Also you are ignoring the possibility of crosskills.
Also don't forget the potential SK-bulletproof.

[MTD]

Too many silent people.

The

only

way there can be missing kills, without MonkeyMan's roleblock having hit scum, is additional town PRs. And if there is even one more, there

must

be

at least

three to give us a total of at least 5. The only setups with a godfather are 0-2 T's (5+ power roles) and 5-7 T's. (0-2 power roles)

Isn't there still the possibility that the RB claim was false?
Also you are ignoring the possibility of crosskills.
Also don't forget the potential SK-bulletproof.

Faking that as town is VI play and being a mafia roleblocker means that this is a very risky gambit for a pretty small payoff.

-Ank

I meant him being mafia (not roleblocker) and fakeclaiming RB.
That opens up the possibility of just a single additional Doctor (e.g.)

[MTD]

I don't think so and I've already explained why.

Yeah, your reasoning was that there must be a blocker cause DS was the first to talk about blocking, right?
That's nonsense, as at that point that was pretty obvious from Monkey's posts that he either really did that block or was going to claim it.

[MTD]

(4) MonkeyMan's gameplay would have too made perfect sense if he were a Cop. (Or, as a weak case though, it would have been also possible if were a VT.) It was you who mentioned that you had been roleblocked way before MonkeyMan claimed. Before this answer I thought that you knew about the roleblock because you have a town-PR but you haven't even tried to crumb or softclaim this possibility (that'swhy I've been waiting with my vote 'till now). Therefore, you must be the scum who performed the (blocked) Nightkill.

You mean this?
Yeah I think so, because this:

Monkeyman is scum.

Discuss.

-Ank

Care to explain the missing kill?

Kinda made the RB/planned RB-claim obvious.

I am saying right now, that I think you guys are ignoring far too many possibilities for me to conclusively think that DS is scum.
Like, all of you just ignore the SK (which IMO is pretty obvious we have) in about half of your posts.
Also, who said the Vig has to claim but the Doctor doesn't? That doesn't really make sense to me atmo.

Also, if we didn't have all that setup stuff, Monkey looks like obvious scum to me, so I am confused.

[MTD]

Too many silent people.

The

only

way there can be missing kills, without MonkeyMan's roleblock having hit scum, is additional town PRs. And if there is even one more, there

must

be

at least

three to give us a total of at least 5. The only setups with a godfather are 0-2 T's (5+ power roles) and 5-7 T's. (0-2 power roles)

Isn't there still the possibility that the RB claim was false?
Also you are ignoring the possibility of crosskills.
Also don't forget the potential SK-bulletproof.

I bolded things and underlined for a reason. It is anti-town to fully explain the reason.

...it really isn't rocket science, mtd. what's the hang-up here?

I really don't understand what you are talking about, dave said the only possibility for missing kills was the RB having hit scum, I likst at least 2 more possibilities. What's the problem?

[MTD]

@MOD: V/LA tomorrow through Sunday.

[MTD]

Maybe the latter one because (1) I haven't ignored the possiblility of an SK and (2) I explained my ideas about the claims (and I told that the Vig should claim next Day, not this Day.)
I still can't see the benefits of MonkeyMan's gameplay if he's scum.

It was to all of you actually.
(1) I said in half your post, you sometimes did, not as much as others, though.
(2) Ok, IMO that depends on todays lynch, if we plan to lynch DS today, either should claim now I think.
(3) Well, at the beginning of the day DS put up suspicion of monkey, which I agreed with, Monkey has subsequently turned that around on DS, so I can definitely see benefits right there.

[MTD]

Yup, if we have no additional claims today, I agree we need massclaim tomorrow.