Newbie 1543: Nightmare Mafia (Scum Win)

[Belisarius]

Vote Count 1.03 (Pagetop Repeat)

Thor665: (1) BlueBloodedToffee
wgeurts: (1) Breshke
Brian Skies: (1) copper223
BlueBloodedToffee: (2) Thor665, wgeurts
Breshke: (1) serrapaladin

Not Voting: Originalchris, WaffleGhost, Brian Skies

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-10-11 23:30:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[copper223]

If you find that a townish response from him, I am confused by your take.

My take is he really didn't understand why you were voting him and after the 3rd query decided that since there was no logical reason to do so you must have been scum (note I disagree with the reasoning). What I found townish was first saying he doesn't care about votes and then going ahead and reacting to your vote by voting himself, as stated you are much more likely to stay consistent for the sake of being consistent if you are mafia.

[wgeurts]

Big post time;

@Wgeurts

: 13 - You're thinking pretty hard about a random vote, you seem worried.

How did you come to determine that Thor's vote was 'tongue in cheek'?

I thought (still do) that it was based off an ongoing game were I played horribly. I will not speak of it as it is ongoing, just read nightless vengeful mafia in central park to see.
My vote is my power, it matters, I'm not thinking on a random vote. That would be going against everything I'm doing, I'm trying to place votes as pressure, tunnel a little and see what results I get. From that info I'm basing my reads. I've explained this all before but you seem to want to make me look bad.

Also could someone sum up why I look scummy?

This is bad. Is this so you can stop doing whatever people find scummy? Note, this would be very different if you were asking people to explain a vote on you, not why you look scummy.

I asked the same in different words. Also, have I changed after the reactions?
No, your argument is invalid, once again trying to frame me.

In post 21, you have Thor as 'Mild Town'. In post 48, you have Thor as 'Null'. Can you explain how this read developed? You had Thor at 'Mild Town' without him doing anything, Bresh questions this read in 23, and then in your next read list Thor is null without any explanation at all. You're showing some serious signs of buddying him.

Thor's first post and vote made him look very slightly town to me. It also made him look to town to others, why focus on me?
I changed him to null later as more info arrived, if things change am I meant to pretend nothings happened and ignore them?
Breshke was sheeping everyone he could but he's new, I explained the reasons before. Why you so keen on making me look bad and falsely accuse me of not explaining stuff?

I'm interested to know a) How Thor has missed this and b) what he thinks about it.

You're doing fine so far but...snip

Another example of you buddying. This feels more like reassurance though.

read the whole post, I'm pointing stuff out to people who are playing. This is a newbie game and there are new peeps in it, I'm going to point stuff out as thor is to help them learn. Encourage meant is good for new people not to give up.

I want to state again that I'm not attaching a whole lot of value on these associative tells because they are pretty much useless without the relevant information needed. But, when that information is available, they will prov useful.

Indeed, I agree with your workings here.

I remain fine with my vote.

BBT, I unvoted because I made a word, so I'll keep to it. If you give any new tells however...

This sequence of posts looks bad. Wgeurts realizes that Thor is keeping his vote on me, he wants to let it be known that should I give him the

slightest

indication that I could be scum, he'll vote me.

It looks bad to you, I had made my word that I would unvote if you did x. You then did x so if I didn't unvote I would have been a liar, something town shouldn't be. I still fully suspected you of scum as I do now, I was merely keeping to my words.

I don't have a huge read on him however I will not hesitate to revote if I spot a single scum like tell. What would you have done in my situation?

He makes it clear again. Wgeurts is showing a lot of self-awareness in his play so far.

No, I'm asking thor what he would of done so he thinks this through. He was attacking my reasons for doing what I did so I asked him what he would do. This could get him thinking and let him see that he may have chosen the same as I have. Stop taking stuff out of context.

Also, I'm not liking this push against Thor, nobodies giving reasons. It looks like a push to kill him as he's more experienced and therefore a threat. I wouldn't be suprised if those voting him are scum, oh wait, hi BBT. Seems like more evidemce for your scumness.

More buddying to Thor. And there is the little thing you needed to try and justify your scum-read and voting of me.

Or you can see it as trying to find reasons why you are lynching, finding none and seeing you are part of it confirming my thoughts.

Lean Town: B...shk summin

Note, you're leaning town on Bresh.

Oh, Breschke summin is lean scum for sheeping everyone, or he's just trying to play town as a newb.

You're now leaning scum on him. This change of read seemed to be based on something he posted on page 2, despite you town-reading him on more than one occasion AFTER he had made that post.

He's sheeping everyone and is posting little content, this just may be newness so it was only after I ISO'ed him and seriously read all his posts that I based my read of off stuff. I'm not perfect, I miss stuff.

sorry BBT

Why are you apologizing for voting someone who you think is scum?

Because I'm a gentleman, read the posts before, I broke my word so I apologise, scum or not.

BBT: You start the game with a "serious vote' for which you don't give a reason until pinged out. You say you don't react to votes then thor votes you and you proceed to ask him why about 4 times and then end up voting him for it. I understand that its because he has no reason but why cant you just act towny and then if he doesn't unvote it will look bad on him and you will have nothing to worry about.

I didn't give a reason for vote until I returned to the thread. That's not a reason to scum-read me.

You should start switching those around.

I don't react to votes. I do like to understand why people are voting for me though. If nobody questioned votes, this would be a difficult game to figure out.

You reacted to Thor's vote alright.

You also can't scum-read me because I approached Thor in a different manner than you would have. Thor has no valid reason for voting me, it looks scummy and it looks opportunistic given how my wagon was just starting.

I have reasons, so does Thor (hopefully)

Your defense and reactions ere point to you as scum, as I've said.
I do have reasoning - but little explicit reasoning, I've admitted this.
That is in no way a reason not to vote you or to call for others to do the same.

How are my defence and reactions scummy? That's a generic comment that holds no real meaning at all.

They look paniced and have little basis for a Thor counter vote. I can go into more depth if you wish.

[wgeurts]

To settle this stupid debate on Thor's first vote:
@Thor; Why did you vote me?

[Thor665]

To settle this stupid debate on Thor's first vote:
@Thor; Why did you vote me?

Because in a generic sense you'd have been the player I'd want dead immediately from the list, and there was no larger wagon to bandwagon at that stage.

[copper223]

@Waffle @Serra @OG (when you pop up) in particular, and everyone else who feels like chiming in, I'd like you to check my boy @Brian and his interaction with me, in particular the following posts:

@Brian
8
20
26
88

@Copper (me!)
9
47 sorry if you don't like spoilers
91

and tell me what you think about us. He is still mafioso nr1 to me and I wouldn't mind some preassure on him since he seems to have shut down after our interaction.

[serrapaladin]

@thor: bbt voting you isn't scumhunting, but I'm more inclined to believe that town-bbt finds your attack scummy than that scum-bbt sees a benefit in voting you. I don't see him being that aggressive in this position as scum.

@copper: I never said it's the content of your posts that make you and WG town. I look more at intent than at content. Also, you should probably drop the attitude. Examples of breshke's questions not being any use in figuring out alignments are basically every question he has posted.

And are we actually debating whether we should lynch someone because Thor has trouble reading them? This is not a valid reason to start a wagon early in the day. It's a fair enough suggestion for a compromise lynch, but at this point it's distracting.

The interactions with Brian posted by copper are boring.

[Thor665]

@thor: bbt voting you isn't scumhunting, but I'm more inclined to believe that town-bbt finds your attack scummy than that scum-bbt sees a benefit in voting you. I don't see him being that aggressive in this position as scum.

Meh. I think town him would have, if he had thought it was an issue, voted sooner. By the time he voted it didn't feel like a reaction to my actions but rather a staged emotive outburst.

[copper223]

@serra

I never said it's the content of your posts that make you and WG town.

I never said you said that, I said that reading people as town based on the activity level, or intent as you call it, is a bad read, and I would much prefer you commenting on the content of our posts. It is also the kind of read mafia might come up with to quickly justify two known alignments. In particular I encourage the rest of town to focus on serra's wgeurts read, from all he has done it is highly abnormal to base your read on the number of posts he has made.

Examples of breshke's questions not being any use in figuring out alignments are basically every question he has posted.

I strongly disagree, in fact this is so wrong, also pretty rude talking about attitudes, I can only assume it comes from scum.

And are we actually debating whether we should lynch someone because Thor has trouble reading them? This is not a valid reason to start a wagon early in the day. It's a fair enough suggestion for a compromise lynch, but at this point it's distracting.

You think that discussion was not relevant? Again pretty scummy mindset.

The interactions with Brian posted by copper are boring.

This is peachy, welcome to my scum.

[copper223]

Upon further reflection I think Serrapaladin is actually slightly more scummy than Brian.

VOTE: Serrapaladin

Updated Reads

Town: Thor / Breshka

Mildly Town: BBT

Null: Waffle / Original

Village Idiot: Wgeurts

Scum: Brian / Serrapaladin

[copper223]

I will give you another reason for why both Serrapaladin and Brian are likely scum here.

This game up to now has been

all

about Wgeurt. The natural reaction of any town aligned player who starts reading this thread, is to think he is scum.
- This is what I did at the start after reading his first posts.
- This is what Thor has been doing on and off, probably also wondering if he is village idiot or mafia.
- This is what BBT is doing
- This is what Breshke is doing

Contrast this with the reaction from Brian and Serra.

Brian: asks you Breshke what you think about me vs wg, then proceeds to say he thinks the guy is possibly town because "it's like looking into a mirror", he basically town reads him for no reason. I think he did that because at the time my push on what he knew to be a town, combined with my "I will tell you later why I RVSed on him", made me look like a nice free misslynch in the making.

Serra: Actually just town reads him, twice, based on the

amount of posts

he has made, if this is not the biggest BS read I have ever seen, on the most controversial player in the game, I don't know what is.

The only reason to behave like they did that I can think of is they know his alignment and, in case of Brian, decided to use it against me, in case of serra, was just sloppy.

[serrapaladin]

lol

[wgeurts]

Wait so what we have going on here is;
Me accusing BBT and Breshke.
BBT accusing me and Thor.
Thor accusing me and BBT.
Copper accusing Brian and Serra.
Serra accusing Breshke.
Breshke accusing me.

Wow, we really need to get our crumpets together.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Even though the following responses are spoilered and addressed to certain people, can everyone be sure to read them please.

Spoiler: Response to Copper

On the other side him claiming you are voting him off like that without giving him a chance to defend himself

Now I understand what you're saying, you have this bit wrong. It has nothing to do with me not having the chance to defend myself, it has everything to do with Thor's poor reasoning for his vote. It was opportunistic and a good time to jump on my wagon.

A fair point, but relevant only if Thor tunnels you all day and contributes nothing else, he is implying that at the time of your vote he didn't have any great scum reads, that's true.

I'm also back to wanting wgeurts lynched.

This quote says different.

Spoiler: Response to Thor

Would you like another word for policy lynch? 'Scumtell'
When someone does 'a given act' you try to lynch them - that is both the description of a scumtell and a policy lynch.

You had no scum-tells on me, you even explicitly stated you had no reasoning for thinking I am scum. This was your reason for voting me;

Because I think you are hard to read and otherwise stand a normal chance to be scum so are an excellent Day 1 lynch.

This is a PL. If Thor refuses to look elsewhere, this needs to be looked at.

I think he reacted more negatively to it then he would have as town - yes.

You don't get to say things like this, because you can't read me.

He immediately attempted to paint it as policy and dismissible, and when I persisted that it was valid only then did he vote me and decide I was scummy.
If it was worth voting me over a policy lynch it was worth doing so the instant I supported it. i don't think it took him that long to remember that he considered that a scumtell - and my stated stance did not shift, nor should he have expected it to...unless he's suggesting it's scummy that I didn't change my belief in the way the game is played from about two comments from him.

If you find that a townish response from him, I am confused by your take.

I think it was perfectly acceptable for me to find out if you had any reason for voting me before I took a stance on what I thought you were doing. Had you explained your vote with valid reasons, I would have no reason to vote for you. But you didn't, so I voted you.

[wgeurts]

Thor's an experienced player, I doubt that Thor would jump onto a wagon because he sees an opportunity. He'd more likely try to frame someone then place the vote, I just don't see Thor making such a stupid mistake as a scum just voting without reason.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Same principle applies as last post.

Spoiler: Response to Wgeurts

I asked the same in different words.

No, asking someone to explain why you're scummy and asking someone to explain their vote on you are two very different things.

Thor's first post and vote made him look very slightly town to me. It also made him look to town to others, why focus on me?
I changed him to null later as more info arrived, if things change am I meant to pretend nothings happened and ignore them?
Breshke was sheeping everyone he could but he's new, I explained the reasons before. Why you so keen on making me look bad and falsely accuse me of not explaining stuff?

This doesn't answer what I was asking you.

Thor's first post was a copy and paste. It's an 'IC Post'. IC Posts are completely null. Now, can you tell me what new info arrived to change your read and how it did so?

I don't know why you're talking about Bresh here. I said you had Thor as 'Mild Town', Bresh pointed out that Thor had done nothing to deserve a town-read at that point, and in your next reads-list you had Thor has 'Null'. So, you dodged Bresh's question and addressed the problem quietly without trying to draw attention to yourself. That looks scummy.

Or you can see it as trying to find reasons why you are lynching, finding none and seeing you are part of it confirming my thoughts.

But I very clearly do have reasons for voting Thor. Are you not reading?

He's sheeping everyone and is posting little content, this just may be newness so it was only after I ISO'ed him and seriously read all his posts that I based my read of off stuff. I'm not perfect, I miss stuff.

Talking about stuff. Scum like to not be too specific because that's how they get caught out. It's been noted.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Meh. I think town him would have, if he had thought it was an issue, voted sooner. By the time he voted it didn't feel like a reaction to my actions but rather a staged emotive outburst.

You don't get to say this. You can't read me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thor's an experienced player, I doubt that Thor would jump onto a wagon because he sees an opportunity. He'd more likely try to frame someone then place the vote, I just don't see Thor making such a stupid mistake as a scum just voting without reason.

Scum always jump on a good opportunity. No matter the player.

[copper223]

@BBT

Now I understand what you're saying, you have this bit wrong. It has nothing to do with me not having the chance to defend myself, it has everything to do with Thor's poor reasoning for his vote. It was opportunistic and a good time to jump on my wagon.

Yes I also updated my read on the situation after our three-way, see post 151, the new information to me is what you're saying about the wagon.

It was opportunistic and a good time to jump on my wagon.

Your wagon at the time was 1 vote from wgeurt, why is that a good time to jump on?

Scum always jump on a good opportunity.

Scum is just as good or bad as town, sometimes they miss the opportunity, sometimes they miscalculate and see an opportunity which isn't there.
A fair statement to me would be, if something someone did was opportunistic, him doing it slightly increases his chances of being scum.

[Belisarius]

Originalchris has been prodded

[wgeurts]

Thor hadn't yet posted it was copy-pasted...

[serrapaladin]

I don't feel particularly interested in responding to anything copper said about me. If others want me to, let me know.

Instead, let me quotewall about newbscum breshke:

Vote: Thor

For that vote without a reason.

Like, how can you pick on the newbies without giving them something to defend against?

@Brian i can't tell if you are being serious here?

I wasn't. Although I'm feeling a lot more attached to it now.

Why are you feeling a lot more attached to it?

His second clarifying question towards Brian, without any individual thought, or indication of whether the response might have some bearing on his read on Brian or anyone else. Brian responds in 26, without really saying anything, and bershke doesn't bring it up again.

Thoughts on Copper and Wg?

Not much really, the main cause of Coppers suspicion seems to be based of a disagreement in the RVS stage and what a towns person should do. I see how voting gives town information so in later days but im also going to guess that after wg accidently hammering on someone he would naturally be more careful with his vote. If i was going to pick a townier of the two it would be copper purely because if he continues to lists his reads as he has been doing i think it will be easy to get a read off him.

IIoA. The "analysis" he gives of copper being town for listing his reads is safe, but meaningless.

Reads from posts so far:
Town: Brian
Mild Town: Thor
Mild Scum: Copper223
Null: Everyone else + Breshke (to little content in posts.)

I get why im null but shouldn't thor also be null? or do you think his single post where he only votes you is a step in the right direction for town hence the mild town read?

More clarifying questions, but still lacking any indication of whether a potential response would be relevant to breshke's read on wg. Wg doesn't respond to this, and breshke doesn't follow up, but rather votes wg in 108. The questions obviously weren't intended to be at all useful with regards to his understanding of the game, but rather a way to appear engaged. He's not interested in actually figuring out wg, but wants to show some indication of thought leading to a vote.

Leaning town
Thor:

@BlueBloodToffee:

Voting without reason as 3rd on a wagon, simply won't cut it. Scummy, for the moment, prone to change as soon as you flesh out your play more, after all I had the same read on wgeurts to start up with. fence/scummy.

Aren't I the third on BBT also without stated reason? Why didn't you ask me about that?

I like that you pointed this out as it makes me feel as if you arnt afraid if attention is brought onto you. Although i don't understand why you are voting BBT when you say you aren't specifically reading him as scum but you are reading wgeurts as scum unless you have rescinded that read?

Again, not a line of questioning that puts any pressure on thor or figure out his alignment.

Breshke, if you look I had a valid reason for all my changes. Not taking care would have been doing so without reasons, I think through my votes as they are all the power I have.

I don't like what this post infers. Also you say you had a valid reason for all your changes? You unovted for someone you still thought was scum if you're wincon is the same as mine i don't see how this is a valid reason.

wgeurts and copper are town because keen wallposting. I also sort of want to call waffle town, as I don't see newbscum in has position posting to say he doesn't have any reads.

I disagree, waffle promised to give reads and he still hasn't. He's now in my scum list until he does and then ill reevaluate.

And finally, another post that doesn't show critical thought or a consideration of people's post, only a desire to appear scumhunting. It's too superficial, it doesn't analyse, and it's trying to hide his coasting.

[wgeurts]

Hmm, this is all true, could you also explain why you don't think it's just first mafia game mistakes?
My lynch on BBT stays, however if we can get BBT lynched I've already read him as mild-scum so he could well be next. Of cause if BBT peforms a miracle and posts a *good* defence which please me we can lynch now.

[wgeurts]

So what I'm seeing here is that there seem to be 5 people who are being labled "scum".
I'm going to go over these and say what I think of them:
Thor is being attacked by BBT, honestly I think this is just a gambit to try and draw attention away from him and to me and thor, who happen to be the ones pursuing him.
BBT is suspected by me and Thor, nuff said here.
I am being accused by BBT and am suspected by Thor, I know this to be utter rubbish from BBT and Thor hasn't yet given reasons. Breshke is also randomly poking me.
Then we have serra, who looks town in my eyes, he being accused by copper. Copper honestly I think you've got a wrong lead here.
Breshke is being accused by serra. I await a defence from Breshke and more attacks from serra, I think serra may well be right however BBT currently has more evidence.

So the scum seem to be:
BBT
Breshke
Who also seem to be completely ignoring each other, how convienient.

[copper223]

@wgeurt

Then we have serra, who looks town in my eyes, he being accused by copper. Copper honestly I think you've got a wrong lead here.

It's possible wgeurts, but I think I have valid reasons for calling him scum. The fact he finally condescended to wallpost on why Breshke is newbscum is a great development whatever you belive and should help town in making the right call. Waiting to see how Breshke replies to this.

You are forgetting Brian in your scum reads.