Open 573: C9++

[MonkeyMan]

Because despite the definition they posted WhiteKnighting in mafia is primarily when scum jumps to the defense of a town person to look more town when said town person flips. That would mean they know I am town even though they think I am scummy.

[Heartless]

Speaking of stale reads, I really need to catch up on davesaz. I see he's voting Nero Cain and I'm curious to see why.

-TTH

[MonkeyMan]

I don't have an update because I am trying not to just see everything they do as scummy. I will look at them again: 1. if a wagon starts to form or 2. Tomorrow. I know at this point I will just confirmation bias myself into thinking they are scummy.

[Heartless]

Because despite the definition they posted WhiteKnighting in mafia is primarily when scum jumps to the defense of a town person to look more town when said town person flips. That would mean they know I am town even though they think I am scummy.

So that would, in turn, implicate 50 Shades of Grey?

-TTH

[Heartless]

I don't know. I think that argument is specious.

-TTH

[MonkeyMan]

No, it was Death Stare who said the WKing thing and said it about Nero.

[Heartless]

Are you sure, MonkeyMan?

This game lacks nacho whiteknighting the living hell out of monkeyman

-TTH

[Heartless]

I'll talk to Anti about this tomorrow morning hopefully. With any luck, we'll hear from MTD, GrayFoxx, and Stavrogin soon.

Good night, all.

-TTH

[Nero Cain]

The point is that you posted a naked vote. I thought it was scummy because it's a vote with no other text at all.

Just to be clear...you think naked votes are more likely to come from scum the town right?

Vote: Death Stare

So why didn't you say anything about this one?

And now, I'd still like to know the why behind post 523. What was scummy about that post?

I think Mollie is very likely scum 'cause townMollie doesn't town read townNero thus means is very likely to be scumMollie.

As for Mollie, I DO think she is more likely to scum read me as town. Even the game that Mollie said she town read me in she was acting like I wasn't a town read for part of d1. Also Nacho is lurking and I think that's also likely to happen as scum

^^^
like here and here, I'm talking about 50 and her sole interaction has been "nope, that's a misrep, moving you out of the town pile." So I don't know what you think me and I need to discuss.

+ Mollie is ad homming me and calling me a dick.

[Nero Cain]

Next case, while we wait for Nero to explain. I was initially very skeptical of the folks reading wgeurts as scum for no lynch. I thought the whole newcomer to the site and that's how we play where I come from thing seemed genuine. But later activity is very disturbing. Being newbie and not knowing what to do could go a little way to explaining it, but after a point it starts to stink. Of scum.

Spoiler: chain of posts

We need to start making a decision, we are all split on our reads so we need someone to take lead and feed us compelling evidence. Grayfoxx we still await your read on everyone.

You don't think there's any compelling evidence at all?

Yes there is, there's however 23 pages to search through >.>

ok, whats the compelling evidence you think?

Scummy play through-out the game, following others while not providing anything themselces, spurting nonsense, etc.

Who is that about?

Anyone, just somebody find it and present it for us. We need a strong case right now so we can discuss together and not in seperate little grudge fights.

Why don't YOU go find this? Why do others have to do the work for you? It is only 23 pages.

I really don't like this, not one bit. If wgeurts is the experienced player that he claims, then he's seen the talk about PLing and the negative response it got. Playing up to the newbie (to this site) status would be a fine way to hide as scum. He can just claim that he's used to leaning on others. It seems safe to be anti-town in an obstinate way, and perhaps significantly safer than the reaction he might get if he makes a bad case.

Some of you might think I'm late to the party on this, but I'd also wonder why it's not the talk of the town. Unless you think it's too scummy to be scum?

Wasn't part of the reason you felt I was scummy 'cause you think it was somehow unreasonable to scumread wegurts or was that just Sthar and Massive?

[MonkeyMan]

I think Nero is town. He is super townie.

[Nero Cain]

*twitch*

[Nero Cain]

sthar? Why is sthar scummy?

He received a red pm. Sthar can confirm this.

but also I wasn't a big fan of his hard wegurts defense or saying his vote on me was for reactions. That seemed kinda silly to me.

Are you town reading him? If so why?

[MonkeyMan]

lol, I am town so this will look good for you no matter what.

[davesaz]

*twitch*

Was 613 a reply to me? Try giving context next time. Like I did here.

The short answer is OMGUS?

[wgeurts]

Wow, so many posts, I catch-up later.

[Nero Cain]

*twitch*

Was 613 a reply to me? Try giving context next time. Like I did here.

The short answer is OMGUS?

I've now posted and reposted why I voted Mollie twice. I don't know why you'd pretend that I didn't post but I'm just going to assume that you are hoping that people will think that I'm not responding to you? Sure we have a load of illogical players on this site and maybe you could get someone stupid enough to believe that I'm not responding to you despite the actual evidence being that I am responding....

Obviously the twitch was directed at Monkeyman...even Monkeyman knew that.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up (and if I've skimmed over something important, please tell me. I have too little time today.)

Anen: Nope, not really. I'm currently contemplating looking closer at grey fox or maybe moving back to death stare but there's something about letting someone lurk out suspicion that leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Uhhh. Hasn't MTD been on V/LA? Nevertheless, he promised to catch up. Unless he posts something super-scummy I still assume that he's town.

50 shades seems the most scummy right now. In risk of sounding OMGUS take a look at 50s original reads on me then look at the current reads on me. Has also pretty much tunnelled mtd all game after disagreeing with an early read MTD made. Also going after inactives to seem like he is still looking for more scum. I think he is picking low hanging fruit that anyone could grab.

this post is hard to parse, BUT I DID IT
the argument is that
1) nacho went after MTD for shit reasons (disagreeing with anen read)
2) nacho pokes lurkers (i.e.-massive)
3) the reads progression on him is bad (product of hydra dissonance)

Why is it hard to parse? It meant exactly the same thing you posted.
(1) I agree with that
(2) What is strange that he found it disturbing that 50Shades had been after inactives. I did the same before and he had had no problems with that. Would it be a possible reason that I was calling Sthar8 before and so did he?
(3) Hydra dissonance, in my opinion. Null in itself. Or I'm dumb. At least I can read you, Heartless.
So, in my opinion, (1) is a good argument, (2) is weak, (3) is I don't know.

ok, spent the last few minutes thinking about massive's case post 610 on NC and SURPRISESURPRISE
it's nonsense

No, it's not. Also check my forthcoming answer to Nero. (The postnumber has been fixed by me.)

Wguerts, 664 – a naked vote on page 27 without any posts from you nearby? Don't ruin my townread on you, a.u.b.!

But then there's a lot of stuffs that I don't get in this game

Welcome to the club! Could you give us a current readlist? I'd like 50Shades to do the same. It's hard for me to read you not only because you're hydras but also because the amount of your posts with quotes and sometimes I don't know whom you are talking to and about.

Nero, my next post will start with you. I promise.

[Aneninen]

Nero.

Wait-oh. Have I misread Nero so far?
I've checked those posts and his votes. It seems that while he's voting for a player he keeps posting why another player is scum instead of giving arguments why the voted one is scum. Am I making out things of nothing again?

I really hate this post though. You are blindly agreeing with Massive's really bad push. I mean there's more than 1 scum in this game and I'm going to answer questions directed at me so I don't see how you can think that me answering a question about why I had voted player X but my vote is on player Y. Singular and or limited scumhunting is the hallmark of scum.

You must have misunderstood something. I don't follow Massive blindly. He posted a case which was based upon your read progerssion. Well, that's

one

possible interpretation which, in my opinion, may or may not be true. His case is significant because it made me read your posts again. I posted something else about you. Singular and/or limited scumhunting is indeed a scumtell. But I was talking about the fact that you tend to vote for a player whereas your strongest scumread is someone else. Also, Massive is scumreading you. I only posted that my townread on you had been gone.

(1) how exactly could a newbie-scum play to "pro-standards"? Show me, where Wguerts suggested us "passing" him.
(2) as if towns never tried to prevent a policy lynch.
(By the way, most of us have never thought that we should policy lynch Wguerts.)

Are you reading the game? Half the reason that Monkey and I are getting flack is 'cause we think its possible that wegurts is scum. He is new to this site and everyone

(except you?)

(

me too

– edited by Aneninen) agrees that he's playing like a new player. What I was saying is that new scum playing like a new player to get a "pass" is not outside the realms of possibility. Wegurts has never suggested we give him a pass and I don't think I ever said that he said that. I think sthar suggested that and I do get the vibe that ppl don't want to lynch him 'cause he's new.

I still don't understand what was scummy in his newbie-ness. (Though, his naked vote was a WTF. It's strange that you haven't posted about that.)
Can you link where Sthar8 suggested freepassing him?

Are you scumreading Massive too? Why? Because he scumreads you?

I'm scumreading him 'cause his push that my wegurts vote was a throwaway is all kinds of junk. Why do you think town would misrep me like that?

Misinterpretation =/= misrepresentation. Does everyone think that Massive's case was a (1) blatant misinterpretation or an (2) intentional misrepresentation?

Not to mention, who you're killing? Really?

Ugh. That's double FoS.

Unless I'm forced to do so I really don't want to explain why. (It would help the scums.)

According to Davesaz's later posts, I think I needn't explain this. There are many other things, see below.

(

About Chainsaw

– edited by me)
TBH I didn't notice the comment from Anen, and would not have known what it meant even if I did. I'll have to look at that. More correctly, I'll have to look

for

it, then I can look at it.

Wait-oh. Nero was the one who mentioned the Chainsaw first. My post came later. Hadn't you happened to notice my post, you must have seen Nero's post about the same topic! Nero's post was 525. My post was 567. And that's true in itself that I was talking to Nero. But nero was talking to

you

! Also, the "why behind the post" was too in 525 (even if it was a weak answer, in my opinion). Quoting the wiki about Chainsaws is a WIFOM in my opinion. (I mean, "yes, Chainsaws look like this but wow, there are things which only look like Chainsaws!")
In 714 you wrote:

"I have no desire to tunnel, just need answers."

– and it seems that you're not reading Nero's posts.

Even if I'm not townreading Nero right now, even if I'm unsure whether your post (524) was a Chainsaw or not (it could have been), I strongly think that you're ignoring topics and posts – especially Nero-posts and you

should

be interested in those since you're voting for him!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Davesaz

[Aneninen]

Yet again, sorry for my long walls.

But, there is something else and this will be short.

This game lacks nacho whiteknighting the living hell out of monkeyman

VOTE: Death Stare
This implies you KNOW I am town. Only

1 group of people

can be certain about other people's alignments and that is scum.
Game over.

Okay. What if Monkey is either newb-town who hasn't read the setup at all or the SK if we have one?
@Everyone: discuss, please!

Have you missed that part above or did all of you think that it was bullshyt? His recent posts have strengthened my read on him, anyway.

[massive]

what's the bottom line here and what's your point because all i'm seeing now is this floating line of logic that goes "nero's read PROGRESSION is bad and there's a contradiction" when what you're pointing out yourself clearly doesn't point to that. is that even true? what's your issue with the reads progression? has there even been progression?

Nero's claim: He thought wguerts was scummy all along, from his vote to the present.
My belief: His early vote and interaction with wguerts don't read as him believing wguerts is scummy, and he's backfilling these posts with "scumhunting intent" to match his current scummy read of wguerts.

It's not a progression. A progression would be like "oh yeah, I was curious on his answer to a couple of things and then had more questions on the answers and then I eventually got to him being scum." Which -- you could possibly get to reading Nero's posts. But him saying "nope I always thought wguerts was scum, go look at my vote" doesn't match up with the actual posts to him.

[davesaz]

Even if I'm not townreading Nero right now, even if I'm unsure whether your post (524) was a Chainsaw or not (it could have been), I strongly think that you're ignoring topics and posts – especially Nero-posts and you

should

be interested in those since you're voting for him!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Davesaz

When I ask a question, I usually expect my name to be used when the answer is posted. Either by quoting the question (like I just did here in my reply to you) or by @name, or something. This helps especially when the "answer" is not specifically addressing the point that I asked, and when a lot of posts (like more than two) have intervened. Nero made a statement along the lines of "she thinks I'm a dick" (yes, I know there was more to it, I just don't want to multi-quote the post) which didn't seem to relate to the question I had asked and didn't refer to me in any way, so I did not see it as a reply to the question.

I already said I did not even know what a chainsaw was. Both Nero's and your reference whooshed right by. TBH I interpreted Nero's as "man, I'm really mad at you now".

@Nero

"Player1 is always scum when she reads me as alignment2" is not sufficient for my purposes. This is one of the worst kinds of reads. It ought to have a name. (General question, does this have a name?) I'm not buying this for a reason for your vote. Try again. Also, you responded to my post about wguerts as though I posted it as evidence against you. I posted it as a way of saying I don't like wguerts's posting and think he's scummy. Taking a post about someone else and making it about you in a defensive manner, when you could just explain your vote better, doesn't sit well with me. If anything it makes you look even scummier.

Back @Aneninen: See what I did there? I replied to another person and addressed it to them. Perhaps this will serve to illustrate why your vote on me is incorrect. Kindly look for scum now.

[Heartless]

what's the bottom line here and what's your point because all i'm seeing now is this floating line of logic that goes "nero's read PROGRESSION is bad and there's a contradiction" when what you're pointing out yourself clearly doesn't point to that. is that even true? what's your issue with the reads progression? has there even been progression?

Nero's claim: He thought wguerts was scummy all along, from his vote to the present.
My belief: His early vote and interaction with wguerts don't read as him believing wguerts is scummy, and he's backfilling these posts with "scumhunting intent" to match his current scummy read of wguerts.

It's not a progression. A progression would be like "oh yeah, I was curious on his answer to a couple of things and then had more questions on the answers and then I eventually got to him being scum." Which -- you could possibly get to reading Nero's posts. But him saying "nope I always thought wguerts was scum, go look at my vote" doesn't match up with the actual posts to him.

HOLYSHIT
MORE FLOATY LOGIC THAT DOESN'T LEAD ANYWHERE

what are you even talking about anymore massive?

[Heartless]

Nero's claim: He thought wguerts was scummy all along, from his vote to the present.

where did this happen?

[Heartless]

did i just lose track of the original context or something?

why am i being sent to all these links that imply a scumread on wgeurts and then i'm told "there's no scumread on wgeurts"?

this better start making sense soon, massive.