Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[wgeurts]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mathdino

Hi Newbie, how do you feel about voting Mathdino with us?

Why are you changing your vote?
Not voting until there's more info.

[wgeurts]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

[wgeurts]

Not voting until there's more info.

Voting, and the reactions to voting, actually provide a lot more info. then just saying you aren't going to vote. Is there some reason you want to hold back?

I usually abstain from RVS and try to figure out and spot any further minor slips. I'll then yank us all out of this stupid phase, huzzah.

[wgeurts]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?

I'm not, reaction test are good.
I also will randomly question for reactions as to end the RVS as fast as possible.

[wgeurts]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

[wgeurts]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

So you said you wouldn't vote until there was more info.

This

is more info? Explain.

It's weak info and very assumptious but ok:
You could well be trying to decieve people to look like your a joking town while you may be scum.
It's all the info I've got right now, it's time for me to wait for more.

[wgeurts]

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

[wgeurts]

@Victor: So that way when I inevitably ISO Newbie I'll have a meta to compare to. I don't want to bother waiting until Newbie's got a wagon on (him? her?) to skim a meta.

Mathdino, can you give me a quick rundown of who else in this game have you played with before?

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

[wgeurts]

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

That's it? Why wouldn't you leave your vote on and keep some pressure to get more/better reactions out of Wisdom? Seems odd to say that there's nothing to gain there after one small exchange.

Because the whole thing was litteraly based off nothing. His first post was a RV obviously and so was his 2nd (anyone disagree?). I played a small reaction test on him for possible defensive reactions.

Also, why does it bother you that I'm not voting him?
Are you possibly scum knowing he's town?
As far as I know we're still only just leaving RVS.

[wgeurts]

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.

Care to explain what is suspect about them may I ask?

[wgeurts]

This is good, we left the RVS page 2.

[wgeurts]

I find it weird that wgeurts unlynched wisdom when he started to receive a bit of heat for it.

I agree, this seems odd. There should be no problem explaining your vote, even if others don't agree with it. It appeared to be a pressure vote due to Wisdom's liking wagons. So why not stick with it? It seems wgeurts got a little nervous there under pressure. Is it newb town or newb scum? I can't tell at this point. I'm also a newbie at this game. It seems worth taking a note of however.

I liked his explanation that he was pulling kind of a Slayer's gambit to see if he could get scum to jump on him for it so that kind of seems like he's trying to scum hunt so because of that, I'm willing to hold off on a vote for him until I see more from him. FoS Wgeurts

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

[wgeurts]

Also, why does it bother you that I'm not voting him?
Are you possibly scum knowing he's town?
As far as I know we're still only just leaving RVS.

It doesn't bother me personally that you're not voting him. But if you are interested in getting out of RVS(which I think we are by now), then I don't know that voting and then un-voting after one exchange is going to give the reactions necessary to do that.

Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.

Care to explain what is suspect about them may I ask?

It's nothing major, but the fact that you expressed your unwillingness to vote until there is more information and then turning around and voting Wisdom was kind of an odd move.
43 with the comment "It's time for me to wait some more" just sounded very off IMO. At first you make it sound like you don't vote in RVS, then you vote in RVS, then when someone calls you out on that you decide that it's time to wait again. Then you say there is nothing to gain from the Wisdom vote in 48 which is odd considering the whole point of voting in RVS is to see what comes out, so why would you decide that nothing would come of it?

I didn't say it was super scummy, but I think it'd be a little silly to say that your early set of posts weren't at least a little bit "odd" and at least somewhat deserving of a second look/pressure vote.

I should of been clearer, I don't vote for no reasons in the RVS, that doesn't mean I won't vote. There was also nothing to gain from the wisdom exchange as there were no real reads/tells to base it off. However it did achieve it's goal of making us leave RVS.
Another point, is it scummy to say you're going to abstain or to just abstain and lurk?

[wgeurts]

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

Yes, you see my real goal as I ha already stated was to get us out RVS so we can actually scum hunt. It worked, the little exchange with you sparked us leaving the RVS page 2. This doesn't mean I think you're town however, that will depend off your future play.

[wgeurts]

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

Yes, you see my real goal as I ha already stated was to get us out RVS so we can actually scum hunt. It worked, the little exchange with you sparked us leaving the RVS page 2. This doesn't mean I think you're town however, that will depend off your future play.

The fact we did left RVS does not explain why you had to unvote me though. You could keep pressuring me until you found something telling either way, however small. Why not interested in that?

You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?
Honestly the vote on you was based of little reasoning so the unvote was as well. I don't have any explicit reasoning fro doing so.

[wgeurts]

@Wisdom: The way wgeurts handled that seem pretty natural (I still don't like the Slayer Gambit). He seemed more focused on reactions to it than your own reaction; personally I wouldn't have expected much from you, considering you basically taunted him into voting, haha. I can't say I like how he's responding under pressure though.

Agreed on TTH though, scumhunting isn't the same as throwing out suspicions.

@wgeurts: Don't spend all your posts defending. What're your reads? Anything you've found interesting/want to point out?

Acro seems fence town and you as well. Wisdom is town more so than others.
Early reads however are of little value, we have only started to see info.

[wgeurts]

Not really. People mostly give off telling things when they're pressured.

You said "there's nothing to gain here", which was simply untrue. Did you think that pressuring me will accomplish nothing?

The nothing more to gain may have been incorrect I agree. However, I must ask you as you seem so sure: what would further pressure accomplish?

[wgeurts]

I don't know, maybe you would get something telling off me. Or maybe you would get other people sheep you and vote me and depending on their reasoning you could get info on them. Unvoting on the other hand doesn't help in any way.

I hadn't though of the sheep point, however it would of been a good one. However what I've done is done and I'm not now going to revote you as I read you as town.

[wgeurts]

Since when are early reads of little value? I'm not asking you to dayvig scum, I'm asking you to participate in discussion other than just defending yourself against... a couple questions. The more we talk the more likely scum emerges. Still not sure whether to FoS or to write off as current playstyle.

Yeah,

Slight FoS: You.

Why does acro seem town?

He is making good points on me unvoting, as scum I would either ignore it or either use it to push a lynch.
Doesn't he look town to you?

[wgeurts]

Since when are early reads of little value? I'm not asking you to dayvig scum, I'm asking you to participate in discussion other than just defending yourself against... a couple questions. The more we talk the more likely scum emerges. Still not sure whether to FoS or to write off as current playstyle.

Yeah,

Slight FoS: You.

Why does acro seem town?

He is making good points on me unvoting, as scum I would either ignore it or either use it to push a lynch.
Doesn't he look town to you?

I misread, I thought you said wisdom.

[wgeurts]

Acro looks town at the moment (fence) as he seems to be getting info to build reads off. The newbie question looked good in my opinion and his play so far matches that. However if he doesn't start posting more content this may change.

[wgeurts]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

vote: wgeurts

Yeah, sketchy reasoning I forsaw umm... before I actually voted him.
I must be a psychic or something to see the future, yeah psychic scum. Y'all gonna die.

[wgeurts]

Also, how was that pressure?
A quick ISO would already show that Mathdino had incorrectley read my playstyle. I had litteraly already said something along the lines of I'm going to yank us all out of RVS. This also seems really opurunistic as discussion is going on this subhect already and you're just like "Hey, guys check this new definetley not based off others case on wgeurts.". This seems really scum to me, the timing is just perfect.
VOTE: Newbie
I'll ISO in a second to see more.

[wgeurts]

God, those phone typos...

[wgeurts]

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

[wgeurts]

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

[wgeurts]

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

[wgeurts]

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

[wgeurts]

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

I'm looking at the fact that you used it as crutch to unvote and clear someone's observation of it as "something a townie would do."

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

You actually stand out the most to me which is why I went after you. I was suspicious of VD's sudden questioning of mathdino for asking about my playstyle, but VD's responses (which you can read down below) satisfied me.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

You missed the more obvious answer.

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.

That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon. I highly doubt that me asking a question about why someone wanted meta will have others quaking in their boots to question for meta. And this doesn't really answer why you couldn't just wait to see how Mathdino responded.

I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.

Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible?

Lots. The question was open ended and I even got a interesting reaction off Acryon to boot. I'm mostly curious as to why Newbie's meta was more valuable to you than others.

I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting?

Fun fact, I often ask question I don't know the answer to.

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.

I didn't question why he wanted information, I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference.

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Why?

It leads to a party where there's Jelly and ice cream - want some?

Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it.

But why the need to state it's a reaction test. I mean everyone went around labelling votes (reaction test) or (not reaction test) then it would be just silly.

Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?

Did I miss a question or something?

Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.

Huh, I thought there was something specific about 55. You don't really need to specifically mention just to say I saw but I don't comment.

Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?

Questioning is scumhunting, and I have my methods.

EBWODP: Missed a bit

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?

Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?

You don't think players should claim serious votes as such?

No, not really. If you want to give reasons, you give reasons.

What are you trying to achieve questioning that?

If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving.

You went after me by instantly voting using other peoples reasons being discussed at that very moment?
Riiiiggghhht.
Also why isn't it possible that what I'm saying is true? You're saying that I used it as a crutch, what makes you think it's fake?

[wgeurts]

I gotta go somewhere now, but first of all

Please stop quoting text walls, it disincentivises catching up.

All you have to do is delete any quotes-within-quotes, only keep what you're responding to.

@wgeurts: ...did you seriously just OMGUS Newbie... I'm keeping my vote on Victor but the way you're responding to people's attacking is really making me uncomfortable.

@Everyone else (mostly TTH): Not enough time to respond, will come back to this later.

I expected an OMGUS accusation to come from somewhere. Honestly I do find OMGUS rather weak, it basically allows you to attack someone as scum and if they retaliate you can shrug it off as OMGUS. I'm not voting Newbie as OMGUS, I'm voting him because her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted what so ever so far yet suddenley leaps on to me as discussion on me arises. If Newbie's actions change so will my read however if someone votes someone after they vote them it doesn't have to be OMGUS. It would have been OMGUS if I had no reasons to do so and voted him because he voted me. I did have reasons so no OMGUS. Now I can hear people saying;
"You only voted him because of his vote and push in his post though."
No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

[wgeurts]

You went after me by instantly voting using other peoples reasons being discussed at that very moment?

Riiiiggghhht.
Also why isn't it possible that what I'm saying is true? You're saying that I used it as a crutch, what makes you think it's fake?

I actually quoted the things that you said which I didn't like and explained why I'm voting you, so how exactly am I using other people's reasoning?

I just think you tried to look overly townish by putting on a show of disliking Wisdom's random voting, but you didn't expect Wisdom to reply back the way that he did. You voted him because it would look odd to back down and used the RVS plus some dodgy reaction fishing excuse. What's really weird is that you took your vote off of Wisdom before he could have any real reaction towards it.

What the heck is wrong with random voting in the RVS?
My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

[wgeurts]

Wisdom RV'ed and I took my chance.

[wgeurts]

Also, woohoo you quoted my posts. So what?
You used the same reasons being discussed at the time.

[wgeurts]

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

Yes, you see my real goal as I ha already stated was to get us out RVS so we can actually scum hunt. It worked, the little exchange with you sparked us leaving the RVS page 2. This doesn't mean I think you're town however, that will depend off your future play.

The fact we did left RVS does not explain why you had to unvote me though. You could keep pressuring me until you found something telling either way, however small. Why not interested in that?

You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?
Honestly the vote on you was based of little reasoning so the unvote was as well. I don't have any explicit reasoning fro doing so.

I don't know, maybe you would get something telling off me. Or maybe you would get other people sheep you and vote me and depending on their reasoning you could get info on them. Unvoting on the other hand doesn't help in any way.

All for you newbie; the so hard to find discussion of the reasons you claimed to have created.

[wgeurts]

There was also some with acro

[wgeurts]

To further elaborate on my point, if you had just said that you don't like randomly voting, then fine. It's the fact that you replied to Wisdom asking why he keeps voting and unvoting. It seemed unnecessary. Haven't you played/lurked mafia games on here before and saw that people here usually do stuff like that right when the game begins?

I'm sorry but somebody needs to ask something however small to start discussion.
If everybody just voted nothing would ever be discussed. As said before, MY BLOODY VOTE ON WISDOM WASN'T BASED OFF ANY GOOD REASONING AND WAS TO START DISCUSSION. Rant over.

[wgeurts]

@Mod
Ha I got your pagetop.

[wgeurts]

Okay. Well it seemed a bit odd to me, so that, coupled with some other things, is why I'm voting you. No hard feelings

What other things?
Please explain, what these things are.

[wgeurts]

I pretty much already did. I don't think your vote on Wisdom was just to start discussion but because you thought that not acting on your stance after Wisdom called you out would look bad. You'll disagree of course and we'll just continue the back and forth forever, so how about we just leave it here?

Yeah, I know those reasons the "other reasons" you had.

[wgeurts]

Okay. Well it seemed a bit odd to me, so that, coupled with some other things, is why I'm voting you. No hard feelings

"The other things"

[wgeurts]

My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

This is not true. You said you voted me because you didn't like my wagoning. Why change your reason now?

Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?
Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.

[wgeurts]

And mate, I love how you took my conclusion as my reasons. Wasn't gonna vote you until I actually went through and responded to your ISO. Last I checked, if I didn't think you looked scummier, my vote would be a policy lynch vote

If they weren't your reasons I may be mistaken, I'm sorry if that's the case. However if they aren't the reasons then what are the "real reasons".

[wgeurts]

You did read this post, right? At post 127, I thought you were misguided. At post 131 I thought you were being arrogant. At post 134 I thought you were hypocritical. And by the time I went over 140 and 142, I thought you were inconsistent and scummy. By the time I noticed what I interpret as mason-fishing, I thought you were scum.

Mason fishing?

[wgeurts]

Fixed messed up quoting

Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?

Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?

Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.

Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?

As far as I can remember it contains masons and mafia with no PR's.
I'm not changing my reasons, if we're going to face it it was really weak reasoning I even said that when I gave my reasons. What have I changed? I'm honestly confused.

[wgeurts]

Could you explain how I'm mason fishing?
I haven't even mentioned them.

[wgeurts]

Also...
@

mod Ha, stole yer page top again!

[wgeurts]

Do you not care to respond to the rest of my post?

Scum want to find masons because masons are the only people other than scum that know people's alignments. So they look for interactive tells.

Which is what you just did with me and Newbie.

So you saying I'm a mason?
Also, I'm looking for possible tells which can come useful later if someone flips scum, at the moment they have no worth. The fact you're not denying my link however does make me think that you and newbie may be linked, the fact your also attacking me for finding tells is also odd.
How many people are in this game?

[wgeurts]

Do you not care to respond to the rest of my post?

Scum want to find masons because masons are the only people other than scum that know people's alignments. So they look for interactive tells.

Which is what you just did with me and Newbie.

What do you want me to respond to btw?

[wgeurts]

How do I know you're not scum trying to stop me from finding a real link?
What you're saying is absolute BS, links are very helpful to find for all but the scum if it's posed against them. It even helps the masons who in the worst case scenario can claim to stop themselves from being lynched. They aren't exactly the almighty PR so I doubt the mob will kill them over a VT. Associative tells are town, the scum dislikes them if they are right and tries to warp or stop them.

[wgeurts]

Dino, I now fully believe you're Mason or Scum with Newbie, caremto confirm which one?

[wgeurts]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?

I'm not, reaction test are good.
I also will randomly question for reactions as to end the RVS as fast as possible.

Not voting until there's more info.

Voting, and the reactions to voting, actually provide a lot more info. then just saying you aren't going to vote. Is there some reason you want to hold back?

I usually abstain from RVS and try to figure out and spot any further minor slips. I'll then yank us all out of this stupid phase, huzzah.

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

So you said you wouldn't vote until there was more info.

This

is more info? Explain.

It's weak info and very assumptious but ok:
You could well be trying to decieve people to look like your a joking town while you may be scum.
It's all the info I've got right now, it's time for me to wait for more.

Wisdom, by thin air I mean nearly nothing, I said that in the same post I wrote down my reason just look at the quotes. Also for all those people accusing me of making up the get out of RVS story, read these to quotes from me before I voted wisdom. Yeah, I had already said what I was intending to do. I'll stop naming links and I'll keep them to myself as you lot seem to disagree with my oppinions on that matter.

[wgeurts]

Note the "very assumptious" I said.

[wgeurts]

You planning on continuing to ignore me? I would legit be flabbergasted if no one votes you by tomorrow just for that. I asked you a total of five (5) questions in that spoilered post. Two (2) of them are rhetorical and don't necessarily require answering, but it'd still be nice if you actually explained yourself to the people voting you.

That's not an opinion, brother. Asking for claims and pointing out links between people directly helps the scum hunt for PRs. The scum know more than the town does. They can use what town says about links better than the town can.

Edit: lol I still think his Slayer Gambit was planned. Except as scum fishing for reactions, since that gambit is insanely inaccurate.

Could you quote the questions I've missed?

[wgeurts]

Also for all those people accusing me of making up the get out of RVS story, read these to quotes from me before I voted wisdom. Yeah, I had already said what I was intending to do.

That doesn't make it more town-motivated. You could have been preparing the ground for your "get out of RVS" act with those posts.

Doesn't that seem a little far fetched?
Why would scum try to get out of RVS and why would they force it themselves instead of blending in and going with the flow.

[wgeurts]

Thank you,
1. It was opportunistic as it happened right as discussion on me was picking up and he used no new arguments.
2. It's not scum-hunting if you're using others reasonig as your own.
3. I can't link any games as they are all ongoing.
4. Yes, had he done it at any other given moment in time it would have been fine.
5. I meant that Wisdom was random voting in the RVS and I made some crappy reason to start discussion.

[wgeurts]

Getting something out of RVS is not necciserily a read for any side in my oppinion. I'd call it null.

[wgeurts]

Dino, it's the fact that Newbie said that, let it drop and only made a push on it once others started to siscuss it that makes it oportunistic.

[wgeurts]

Also, yeah you should ignore meta in general. Even the wiki says 9 times out of 10 it's wrong. Meta is the worst thing to use as a case.

[wgeurts]

yowza

yowza to you too.

[wgeurts]

@Mod: Request replacement on both Duke and Undertaker, they literally flaked all their games; haven't posted since the queue.

Well Newbie, if you fall short here, explore other avenues.
In the interest of not tunneling, got any reads on the rest of the playerlist?

Actually I'm kinda disappointed in today's activity, so:

SilverWolf

: Whatcha think of TTH and her reads on Wisdom and NM?

TTH

: eh already asked you question. If you get around to this, by PoE (heh, Tell Tale Heart using PoE), the scum are in {Wisdom, DukeC, Undertaker, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, acryon}. That seem accurate? You mentioned that acryon had articulated good reasoning, but never mentioned a read on him.

Wisdom

: No questions, just wanted to say I don't think there's anything wrong creating discussion about other players as long as it doesn't turn into tunneling.

Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, Malakittens

: I'm assuming for now you guys are gonna provide more stuff later (I know blindme's been pretty busy IRL; I'd expect activity to go up this weekend). NM, anything to say on the discussion of you? Anything on the wgeurts wagon?

Already asked all the questions I got for wgeurts. Agree with blindme, I'd recommend putting and leaving him at L-2 for pressure. Confident enough with the playerlist that no one'll quicklynch him.

Mind bolding/quoting these new questions?

[wgeurts]

Another point to make before you mis lynch me is if I make a bad defence in your eyes it wouldn't necciserlily mean I'm scum. This is my... 6th game now?
3 of which ongoing.

[wgeurts]

What am I posting a defence against that I haven't already done?!

I'm claiming vanilla town and I'll hammer myself to show scum are driving my lynch.

[wgeurts]

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Wgeurts

[wgeurts]

Dude, over 80% of your posts are basically 1 line defences and justifications. Tell us who the apparent 'scum running the town' is, build a case, and show us who to lynch instead. Otherwise you're not helping us at all. And no, your points against Newbie weren't a case, it mostly consisted of quote walling and, as someone else put it, a "Hah, gotcha".

And I don't have any new questions; I feel I've asked all I need to. The burden's on you, man.

Unless of course this is all AtE to get us to stop the wagon, in which case I'm not falling for it.

I'm sorry but it's day 1, it's impossible to make a fool proof case. I can post my oppinions on everything however it won't bring us any further.

[wgeurts]

I'll explain my thoughts tommorow.

[wgeurts]

[UNVOTE: ]
As requested.
I'll post my thoughts on the people driving my wagon in a second.

[wgeurts]

UNVOTE:
Haha, I've gotten too used to editing the wiki's open setups page.

[wgeurts]

My suspicions lie with VDA and Wisdom.

Wisdom is steering people to vote me without actually doing so himself. He is doing this by raising suspicion (which isn't very hard at this stage and my play) which is being taken over by others and is creating a whole lot of ruckus that the scum can easily hop on and hide in. If he's scum this would make sense as he could them suddenly decide he thinks I'm scum and then hammer me. I've already claimed so he would have to wait for nothing. He is also not pushing or searching for scum, he seems to be asking the same well formulated question here and there making discussion but no real content.

VDA started the wagon and has since then done little to nothing to help it. He has done so little scum hunting I imagine he is just sitting back and enjoying the chaos I partially caused.

I've rethought my read on Newbie and he seems town to me now.

[wgeurts]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I posted those posts at 23:45 ish at night, I was tired.

[wgeurts]

Ok, Wisdom. Take my word for it for now then, I'm VT; not mason, not scum. Just vote someone else for now otherwise we have a mis-lynch. We'll see what happens D2 however and you can PL me then or whatever.

[wgeurts]

Wisdom, no I don't think your town at all. VOTE: Wisdom

[wgeurts]

Mmm, I can't be sure on my reads as town often they are wrong and you could be a mason/town/scum. If your town please explain why you've locked me into a situation which I'd always look scummu no matter what I do.

[wgeurts]

Also, what's stopping from all masons claiming?
It would confirm 3 town out of 13, masons aren't exactly more powerful than town.

[wgeurts]

Wgeurts your not seriously talking about masons claimaing again are you?

Is there any topic somebody could link me to on this?
I'm interested in the oppinions.

[wgeurts]

I'll catch up later, sorry to prod dodge.

[wgeurts]

Town:
Mathdino
Acryon
TTH

Scum:
Newbie

Ask for particular names for reasons why I have that read on them.

[wgeurts]

Finlaw also looks town, I'm going to take a deeper look at wisdom later as he's posted a lot so there must be something I've missed.

[wgeurts]

I'm not scum anymore?

Also explain of your reads please

All of them?
Ok, I'll make a detailed post on them later. You're null/scum and I'm going to have to reanalyse your posts.

[wgeurts]

*Is satanist*

[wgeurts]

Why am I scummy again?

[wgeurts]

Anyway reading this guy is going to be a bloody nightmare.

[wgeurts]

Mathdino looks town for the effort he's putting into this game
TTH is a more gut based read.
Fin is making a lot of points which I agree with at the moment.
My case on newbie will be made tommorow.

[wgeurts]

You'll all like my newbie case

[wgeurts]

Mathdino looks town for the effort he's putting into this game
TTH is a more gut based read.
Fin is making a lot of points which I agree with at the moment.
My case on newbie will be made tommorow.

Such lengthy explanations

Why didn't you just put those in the post you gave us your reads in the first place?

As I'm making a better post when I have PC access, I'm using my phone at the moment as my PC is acting odd.
Believe me, I'm (in a stupid small text editor) working on a large post om everyone this game.

I'm all up for PLing this guy though, he will be a nightmare to read and is therefore dangerous.

[wgeurts]

Constantine do you really have to post like that? It's getting annoying fast.

Agreed. I was tired after about 1 post. It's enough to bring out the lurker in anyone.

I asked for your thoughts on the game thus far. You have ignored me, like a seed fallen from the blossoming flower that is thy Kingdom of Heaven!

Ok let me throw a freekin proverb in your fave and put it in skulls:
Even a fool is considered wise if he knows when to speak and when not.
In this case, please stop talking.

[wgeurts]

Oh god he's a troll, stop feeding him!
This is his first game I guess as his rank is townsperson.

[wgeurts]

I've reported for trolling, this is his first game.

[wgeurts]

Anyone able to transalate this saint guy?

[wgeurts]

wgeurts, I'm interested to see the case you said you had on me yesterday.

Expect it in an hour or so.

[wgeurts]

Ok, you first with me say you thought my unvote was suspicous without further reasons. You then post a long post using all reasons others have worked out and discussed for a while. The discussion was a few pages long and you didn't find my vote so scummy at first otherwise you would have pushed it and/or voted me. You did neither and decided to lurk, that isn't scummy in its self however one of your forst posts afterwords instantly used others reason right after discussion to jump on me.
Then the same happens with your vote on wisdom, you lurked and then suddeneley you jump on wisdom

Using arguments others were alreay discussing

. You didn't even help discuss, you just jumped, like that. Your not scum hunting, as you said you are new. A new scum I would expect to see taking their chances when they pop up and you are. There's no scum hunting on your behalf, most if your posts contain nothing new and are worthless fluff. Your trying to look town but are faking it badly like a newbie.

I also heavily suspect wisdom.

[wgeurts]

wgeurts, I'm interested to see the case you said you had on me yesterday.

Expect it in an hour or so.

The lord knows a liar when he see's one. You're on the clock child.

The lord must then be pleased.

[wgeurts]

I'' finding it ironic that blindmewith

science

disagrees with constantine.

[wgeurts]

I'm sorry, VOTE: Constantine for all these comtradictions.

[wgeurts]

Prod accepted.

[wgeurts]

21 hours, I won't be there by then cus sleep and other reasons.
VOTE: Victor
I would of really preffered a constantine lynch.

[wgeurts]

If victor flips town we lynch constantine next, no questions.

[wgeurts]

Ug, forgot about this game, I'll catch up later.

[wgeurts]

Wisdom, tunneling stops discussion and gains nothing. I believe you won't change your mind on mala no matter what he says, please also stop the spam posts. Care to give other reads besides mala?
I'm not agreeing with the mala case and am suprised why the heck we haven't lynched constantine yet.

[wgeurts]

I'll make a big post covering everything tommorow, I've got no access to a pc sadly.

[wgeurts]

Can we lynch him now?
If he is town scum will sail him to lylo where he'll be voting without reasons. Something we could do without. To make matters worse he doesn't answer questions. I'm not liking his Village Idiot facade at all and I think some have fallen for it. Most people would be lynched by now with what he did, why isn't he now?
His comment on bussing is also rubbish, "Newb scum only do it".

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Not-Mafia
I've got a lot of explaining to do.

[wgeurts]

I'll make a big post covering everything tommorow, I've got no access to a pc sadly.

Is this coming anytime soon, wgeurts?

Yes, however still no PC, I'm going to use meh ipod.

[wgeurts]

My reads are from town to scum:

Town

MathDino
Malakittens
BMS
Constantine
Bork
Newbie
Riddleton
Wisdom
Not Mafia

Scum

Explanation is under construction as we speak.

[wgeurts]

Sorry I haven't been so active, I've been putting too much attention into my other games.

[wgeurts]

Also when was Newbies last post, she's gone to lurking it seems.

[wgeurts]

Ah, ok i'll do that Mathdino.
I'm making a post on my ipod on everyone however it's taking a while. I've got no PC as said and I'm ill, however that's not an excuse as I should be more active.
My main points in it are my change of constantine to town and not-mafia as scum.

[wgeurts]

My long awaited post on everyone explaining everyone. It took longer due to water polo training and iPod keyboards suck.

Mathdino

He is my top town read, he's not jumping on chances he could get and is defending others making sure no rash decisions are made. Early game you could doubt it for town-cred however he's still playing the same.

45[/post]]^Not liking RVS isn't a scumtell though, if anything it's a noobtowntell IMO.

This is an early example of this and seems very town motivated. A scum could pull up a facade but eventually he'll have to drop it as to get a mis-lynch done.

He does have early suspicions on victor however this has no worth as it could be scum bussing. He even goes on to make a semi-serious vote on him. However he keeps his vote there for a long time and also continues to genuinely scum hunt. His thoughts seem to be very open in his posts and you can almost see his thinking pattern if you skim his ISO.

He unvotes Victor for something that I now see is generally scummy; mason fishing. There's so little scum motivation to be found behind his actions and that's why he's been town for me D1.

There isn't much else to comment on his play, his votes are consistent and don't sway easily, he's hunting still and making all his thoughts clear.

Malakittens

Mala kittens thoughts are harder to figure out however the motivations are clear. One of the first things by her which really looked town motivated to me was her 261 in which she tried to stop a wagon which was rapidly building against me. The town motivation for this would be clear however the scum one would be odd. Yes the scum could do it for town-cred however would gaining town-cred way up better than getting a quick easy mis-lynch?

That was what I thought, the read on me changed many times and the sudden change of read on VDA looks to me like bussing. Read these posts:

What am I posting a defence against that I haven't already done?!

I'm claiming vanilla town and I'll hammer myself to show scum are driving my lynch.

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

VOTE: Wgeurts

Okay my loves. The wagon on Wge is bad and you all unvote. This is townflail and not scumflail

So there's a good chance that one of Wisdom/Wge is scum. Wisdom surprisingly doesn't feel town. Also I'm disliking his read on me because I think it's pure bullshit.

UNVOTE: Acyron

Wge would have to be really ballsy scum and be confident that his partners are good at playing scum to intentionally mason fish in thread.

Wisdom and wge will not be scum together. I could see Silver scum.

Is it really bad that I keep confusing TTH & BWMS' posts as one player.

Anyways townreads in no order {Mathdino, Finnlaw, TTH, BWMS} leaning town {N_M & Wge}

Wisdom explain why I should be townreading you?

Anyways townreads in no order {Mathdino, Finnlaw, TTH, BWMS} leaning town {N_M & Wge}

The only one I agree with is Mathdino, maybe TTH. Can you explain the rest?

Also remind me who you are scumreading and why.

FinnLaw because his posts reads to me like his posts did in the completed newbie game. He seems way too confident and not at all nervous that I feel that would come from a newb-scum.
BWMS is gut actually, but I liked the posts in the recent-day than I did when the game first started.
Wge is because I feel like he's acting too ballsy to be scum especially for newb-scum.
N_M is a mixture of gut and meta.

Malakittens:

I suspect you're not reading my posts given 1) you apparently think I'm a "he" and 2) your recent exchange with Wisdom regarding what I said about Constantine's post. That's alright, though. I'm not here to judge you for that.

Your answers to Wisdom's recent questioning, especially post 692 and post 697, leave a lot to be desired. First, there's the issue of your read on Wisdom. When you strip away all the out-of-game references that I cannot evaluate and get to the core of the case, I'm left with the "premature push" reason, which I completely don't understand. When should he have pushed you? How should he have pushed you? Should he have waited for later? Why and if so, when would that have been? I have no idea.

Referring back to post 697, why do you think Victor is scummy? Also, if you have a tell you want to use on him, why are you saying so? Isn't it counterproductive to show your hand this early? I don't know if you're just trying to weigh things or if you really don't have a tell on Victor and you're just procrastinating on taking a side.

Eh, I'm the worst person with pronouns. Unless I talk to you like daily or played in a shitton of games I'll incorrectly call everyone by he because that's what my mind is defaulted at. I'll get it right sooner or later. Don't take it personally.

I misread your whole exchange with constantine. I'm sorry, but I'm not a robot and I'm human. I have this bad habit of reading the thread from current posts backwards to what I have to catch up on.

Because he knows how to read me without actually having to push me, but his premature push feels like he's fishing for a certain reaction from me and I'm really not in the mood for it. I have this tendency to be like a calm kitten until you poke me a million times and then I bite. That's exactly what I feel like Wisdom is doing to me. He doesn't have to push me. He can read me off reactions to others which I feel he isn't doing. Maybe part of it is my fault because I'm not able to give this game my all because of working, but even then.

I have a tell on Victor that I don't believe he actually knows and I'm not sure even with my vague comment he will. I believe that the card is still in my control. I think Victor is scummy flat out, but as I said before I have no desire to push someone who's on V/LA and not able to response back. i think it's unfair to do and I refuse to do it.

VOTE: VDA

Anyways:

VDA is scum.
Newbie just gave me hibbyjibbies.
Bmws/mathdino/tth/Finn/mm are all town.
Wisdom im unsure.
sctH is probably town.
Riddle gutscum.

I forgot the rest so yah >_>

These are gun to my head type reads:

I'll explain further if I'm alive in D2.

Wisdom - null, but had to guess maaaaaaaaaaybe town
FinnLaw DukeC - prob town
wgeurts - likely town
St. Constantine The HermitThe Undertaker - was leaning town, but could be scum
Newbie - Gutscum
Malakittens - town
Riddleton SilverWolf - Leaning scum maybe~
Not_Mafia - Prob town
TellTaleHeart - prob town
VictorDeAngelo - Dead, but likely scum.
Mathdino - was leaning town, but that overreaction. I will mull that over after VDA's flip
blindmewithscience - likely town
acryon - prob scum

No, I don't want to explain my reads further, I'm in this ball of rage at the moment.

Although if Victor is scum, then Riddleton is prob town.

My lynch pool is this:

{Wisdom, BMWS, Riddleton, Wgegurts}

In that order.

Mala, any reasoning?

Welcome to the game, borkjerfkin.

You guys are posting wayyyy to fast. I step away for 5 minutes and a whole nother page

I did a vast meta research on VDA. He has a tendency to line up with scum partners like MathDino said and associate them with a townplayer. I have checked town games to see if he's done them there, but he has once, but when he did do it is was a vast difference.

I might be warming up to switch Riddle with you because I'm itching for a 1v1 and it's suprisingly one of those things I never want to do, but I'm in this mood to do it.

My lynch pool is this:

{Wisdom, BMWS, Riddleton, Wgegurts}

In that order.

This is an array of posts from her where my read jumps all over the place and where she starts to bus VDA when he starts receiving pressure. I now think if the chance arose for me being lynched again that she would be on it. There also isn't a terrible amount of scum hunting coming from this slot, just nice little comments. Going over her ISO I also feel that her posts aren't genuine. I dislike how she's dropped wisdom as well.

Constantine:

Village Idiot, nuff said. I'll explain this one more later.

Others are coming later.

[wgeurts]

I'll also explain Mala more, I'm thinking Mala and not-mafia as the scum team now.

[wgeurts]

Actually wisdom could be scum with mala, they're both experienced and have both just let there push go. IF YOU THINK SOMEONES SCUM WHY WOULD YOU STOP PUSHING THEM?!?
It could all be a very good bus act, I must know however if the scum have day talk. Then it would make sense.
There's scum here: NM,Wisdom,Mala.
Further reads being made.

[wgeurts]

I'll also explain Mala more, I'm thinking Mala and not-mafia as the scum team now.

Don't think so. They voted me together, they defend each other.. it would be ridiculous if a scumteam was so obvious.

Mmm, unless that's what they want us to think.

[wgeurts]

I've decided against constantine being scum as his play wouldn't make sense from a scum point of view. I went off gut at first with him however that was biased because of me being irritated by his rp style. He's obviously not a newb so I imagine he's some guy fed up with current meta and is playing how he wants to play not caring about anyone or anything. I must admit my reasons before were rather policy based and weren't very well grounded. My change of mind was caused by me realising I was biased and that his actions wouldn't make sense as a non-noob scum. His carelessness however has caused me to label him village idiot.

Blindmewithscience

BMWS missed the first 150+ posts or so and went on to vote me. At first this looked opportunistic however his post after his votes were well reasoned and he actually showed signs of wanting to be sure he's making the right choice. As scum he could of just hard pushed my lynch until I was lynched, he however didn't and properly questioned me like in this post:

Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.

@wgeurts, if Mason's claim now, they would be picked off by scum because scum don't want conftowns around who would not be lynched, because as the number of people in the game narrows, they have a harder time hiding among the crowd and would be easier to find.

In general, I can see where the wgeurts being furstrated town is coming from, and I'm agreeing with the whole Catch-22 situation that has been pointed out by Finn. But there's everything else that he's done, including the mason fishing. And so with regards to the first part of this, mafia are unpredictable. We can't say what they will or won't do. But we can always ask wgeurts.

@wgeurts: Please give your reasoning for your repeated, explicit masonfishing. Also, could you explain the inconsistencies shown before?

Now, I really don't like this.

It slightly troubled me when Silver defended me in 238 but I didn't give it much thought. You might actually have a point about her.

[...]

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

Note the enormous bashing of mathdino's suspicion. While I agree that it's a relatively weak argument, this incredibly charged response was a big overreaction IMO. At the end the day, I think all he was asking for was more, actual contributions, and you're attacking him for pointing out that you haven't posted anything of value. I'm not quite sure how much this affects my opinions of you, Silver.

But also, I like the point that Silver made about Wisdom only voted after wgeurts' argument. Again, not sure how much this affects my opinion of Silver, but the Wisdom case is getting stronger.

He has also shown a lot of him trying to figure out why wagons are being made and the reasons for them. He's been doing this most of the game and it's a rather good town tell in my eyes. As scum you wouldn't care about why a wagon is being pushed, as long as it hits town.

He eventually goes back to voting me however he backs it with *new* reasons, not just copies of others to join a fast wagon of my doom.

His constantine vote seems biased, like mine. I urge you BMWS to read his ISO and think of the motivations behind all his posts for both sides.

Predit: Mathdino, look at his posts, he's doing what I said: Being a village idiot. He generally doesn't give a fudge about site meta.
It looks horribly scummy but I seriously doubt he is scum so I will stand against any lynch of him.

[wgeurts]

Uh, you're all very bad at mafia. That's all there is to say.
I'm being very quiet as I allow the idiots who dominate this game to start mislynching.
Maybe then some of you will stop perking up your balls and actually play smart.

Village Idiot who enjoys some trolling I must say.

[wgeurts]

You all do suck. That's honesty.
I'm regretting coming to this site, because everything is overanaylzing.
On my first site I had a near perfect record on dozens of games, so I'm simply asking for the credibility I deserve.

Stop over thinking the game. The answer is pretty clear. Acyron or Newbie are likely scum. Mala and Mathdino maybe.

Yep, troll.
Still town though.

[wgeurts]

I'll make my case against Mala/Wisdom/NM once I've finished all general reads.

[wgeurts]

I'll make my case against Mala/Wisdom/NM once I've finished all general reads.

Plz don't

?

[wgeurts]

Mathdino stop, reacting!
Ignore, him.
He'll be replaced for trolling site-rules, in the mean while let him rant and don't react. He's trolling because you're reacting.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Constantine

The overreaction coupled with the hardcore defence of me makes me want to reevaluate my townread on him.

Mala is still scum; I'm writing case on her in gedit as we speak. I'll have that posted tonight (for real)

Add the part about her reads on me so I don't have to.

[wgeurts]

I'll make my case against

Mala

/Wisdom/

NM

once I've finished all general reads.

Plz don't

?

You are in need of a reevaluation rather than an exercise in confirmation bias. Please do that instead.

I already know what I'm going to say, it was after I reread that she became scum to me.

[wgeurts]

I believe there could be 1/2 mafia in this group:
Wisdom, Malakittens, Not_Mafia
Now I'm going to explain why.

Malakittens

She starts by just kind of saying like this, don't like that in her first few posts. She's not pushing for answers and is going along with the flow while looking generally town. She then says my flail was town flail, this at first made me think she's town as I couldn't see why you would as scum do it.
I know believe it was all for town cred. She's also still voting an RVS stage placed vote 350 posts in and little hunting for the scum is being done. However 30ish posts after me being town I suddenly become a possible scum, either me or wisdom. I'm town so if mala's scum I'd expect wisdom to possibly her partner. The scum read without push (at first) and the RVS Wisdom vote look a little like distancing.

My read once again changes a few posts later. I'd apparently be "really ballsy scum" if I was scum. It's funny how the read on me changed with the public opinion. She also doesn't have a read on VDA and is mostly ignoring him. However when questioned by wisdom later he looks scummy but she doesn't want to make a push on him yet. Lets see how this developed along with the wagon on VDA shall we?
A couple of posts later he's "flat out scummy" but she has no desire to push someone who's VLA.
She also makes it claim she'd lynch him over a no lynch. However she heavily defends against lynching him before his VLA is up literally the post before she votes him. The vote that finishes the deal. I find it horribly odd that mala has no read on VDA then goes to heavy defence against lynching him or pushing while he is VLA (She also refuse to say why she's scum reading him.) and the she lurks during the discussion on him. She hammers him with a naked vote however so I believe she saw his lynch was inevitable (while lurking of cause as she doesn't want to push a scum buddy) so she decided she may as well break any associative tells with him by hammering. It was unlikely VDA wasn't going to be lynched so this would actually make sense.

Not Mafia and wisdom are coming.

[wgeurts]

He's a Troll.

[wgeurts]

Wisdom, you are my smallest scum read. NM is a higher priority.
VOTE: Malakittens

[wgeurts]

That didn't answer my question though

To answer it, it is possible and is something I'm considering.

[wgeurts]

My question was, why did Mala saying that either you or me is scum mean that this is actually the case?

It's also her RVS vote and your arguments.

[wgeurts]

k, so I skimmed through a bunch of Wisdom games and games he played with Mala, and I think what I've learned is

I know what town-Wisdom looks like and this isn't that

absolutely nothing. Thought I'd get a read by showing that Wisdom tunneling Mala is usually more stubborn and less case-y but that's not even true.

Need to look through Mala's play again, see how much validity her wagon holds. Townread on her was entirely from twilight and D2.

Thoughts on my case.

[wgeurts]

Darn you acryon, you've just said (a lot) of what was in my case on wisdom. I'll continue it anyway due to my differen't perspective.

[wgeurts]

Who are the masons?
What have I missed?

[wgeurts]

You've made 6 pages while I slept, can someone sum them up?

[wgeurts]

Wait is mathdino mason with mala?
WHAT IS GOING ON?!?

[wgeurts]

Also Constantine is not scum, period.

[wgeurts]

How would wisdom know the masons?

[wgeurts]

Also wisdom I must say your arguments are weak.

[wgeurts]

Ok, I'm caught up. Apparently people think not_mafia, mala and bork are mason and Wisdom disagrees that this means nothing. Mathdino is tunnelling wisdom because all the "masons" are wisdom's scum reads. I believe (we've killed one scum already) that a wisdom flip would provide a lot of information. It may even be enough to change a Math Dino town read as wisdom has gotten himself entangled with so many people. I'm making this at school so once I'm home I'll make a larger post but for the mean while:
VOTE: WisdomVOTE:
I'd like you to claim, that would also provide a lot of info.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Wisdom
Stupid iPod typo, your now L1 or L2, claim.

[wgeurts]

I'm not, I don't believe the masons are 100% sure masons.
Are you a mason?
Then claim now.

[wgeurts]

I'm leaning to believing however I won't hesitate for that to change. I'm a VT if you're looking for that btw.

[wgeurts]

DUDE THAT WAS A HAMMER
UNVOTE: Wisdom

?

[wgeurts]

Crap, missed your revote.

[wgeurts]

D1: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I DIDN'T REALISE THE DEADLINE WAS HALF A DAY AWAY

D2: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I DIDN'T REALISE THE GUY WASN'T AT L-3

D3: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I DIDN'T REALISE THE GUY WAS TOWN
...
D5: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I'M SCUM

^Predicted trajectory of game.

Hopefully, not.

[wgeurts]

Sorry dino, still not free.

[wgeurts]

Wait is riddle L1?
VOTE: Riddleton

[wgeurts]

Constantine isn't scum.
VOTE: Acryon

[wgeurts]

The Undertaker is friend of mine who I tried to get into mafia, he joined this game however went to Iceland for a week. (He also suddenley started saying mafia must suck, it's a forum game). He however said to me that he's "Something to do with town". Now unless he's bullcrapping on me then I believe him (however he does that a lot). So then constantine replaced into his slot, I at first thought that constantine was scum however in an attempt at getting him to give mafia another chance he said he was town. Hence my read on constantine changes pretty dramatically. Please don't mod-kill me for this.

That and the victor vote, acryon knows constantine is an easy person to frame. He's scum, quick-lynch him.