Open 573: C9++

[Jingle]

Vote Count 2.3

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger.
-William Shakespeare

massive (5): Heartless, Nero Cain, sthar8, wgeurts, 50 Shades of Purple
wgeurts (2): Aneninen, MonkeyMan
Nero Cain (1): massive
sthar8 (0):
Heartless (0):
davesaz (0):
Brian Skies (0):
Aneninen (0):
Death Stare (0):
50 Shades of Purple (0):
MTD (0):
MonkeyMan (0):
No Lynch (0):
Not Voting (0): davesaz, Brian Skies, Death Stare, MTD

With 12 alive, it is seven to Lynch or No Lynch.

Deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2014-10-25 16:00:00) on October 25th, 2014 at PST (GMT-8).

[50 Shades of Purple]

I also very strongly disagree that Dave's Nero stance was underdeveloped: I disagree with the conclusion, but the logic to get there was fairly on point and the only reason it ends up being incorrect is because it assumes too much classic, logical town play and is lacking experience of Nero.

[50 Shades of Purple]

Why we all wagoning Massive?
Could somebody give their reasons?

Hmm...
Sorry massive, just ISO'ed you and I have to agree with the rest.
VOTE: Massive

This progression is also clearly just wg looking for a reason to vote massive and I hate it.

[50 Shades of Purple]

I already know neither Anti nor TTH can actually read me. I know Nero pretty much HAS to vote me if he wants to generate any town cred for himself. But BY CROM that wguerts vote was horrible.

People jumping on wguerts for "voting without a reason" should probably look at every single person voting me b

What do you mean by "Nero has to vote you for towncred"?

[Death Stare]

Spoiler:

(1) Quite a slow start. (Remember, I was wondering whether the scums had been lurking early-Day1 but since all of you told me that my theory had been bullshyt, I dropped it.)

Dead null.

(2) 225:

"wgeurts wants to no lynch. wgeurts doesn't like random bandwagons. wgeurts wants to hold onto his vote. I don't know that mafia is the game for wgeurts."

– if both Wgeurts and Massive are scum, this might have been a coaching. Also, 293; he's responding to Wgeurts's 289. Wgeurts:

"Ok, everyone here is so much better at mafia than on the other forum. Any articles anywhere I can read to improve?"

Massive:

"They're not better, they're just different. And aw you say the sweetest things to me! But seriously, the best way to "get better" is to just keep playing..."

– Yet another coaching? (Caveat: I made similar posts when I was interacting with Wgeurts on early-Day1.)

#225 is a weird post, but it's not alignment-indicative. #293 is a huge stretch.

(3) Davesaz, 237:

"I have seen massive in another game, though he was NK'd before I replaced in so none of the interaction was in real time. I'd like to see more of him in this game."

And Massive's answer in 237

"You and me both! Getting NKed N1 is like the worst thing ever."

– a kind of soft-defense on each other?

I don't understand how this is a defense.

(4) 322 Massive's answer for my 318. Aneninen:

"Massive had very few posts with little content. A bit less scummy but it's still scummy. I saw that he's posted recently, I'm going to read those posts as soon as I can."

. Massive:

"SPOILER ALERT: You'll still find it scummy. Especially the part where I say I could vote you."

– well... either Massive thinks I'm the kind of idiot who scumreads everyone who votes for them – or Massive knows that I'm town??? Whattafukk?! Yes, the first part is also possible but he must have noticed that I had never scumread MTD, in spite of his vote!

This looks more like a reaction-fish than anything else.

(6) 593 and 620 – these posts seem to be genuine. Though, having read them again somehow they look less contentful now.

I don't know about wgeurts prod dodging in #620, but I'm not really getting the same vibe from #593 that you are.

(7) The Nero-case starts in 610. I've already talked about that. Apart from the Nero-case there were not much else in Massive's posts for a while. (If I consider his answers to other players, eg. me the part of the "Nero-case".)

I'll wait to comment on this for the moment, as I can see either alignment making that type of case.

(8) Why did he claim at all in 1082? That was absolutely unneccessary, in my opinion.

This is town, if anything. I don't know about anyone else, but I find it a bit weird for mafia to claim a role that town generally doesn't put much thought into keeping around for the role itself when they're in the process of being wagoned up. It's not a very strong tell, but I consider it one nonetheless. Agreed that it's unnecessary, though.

(9) Massive and Nero. Massive, 1082:

" Nero is a sheep here and I still haven't seen anything to disprove the idea he will jump on anything that moves regardless of reasons."

. Nero, 1083:

"Also I didn't jump on everything yesterday like you claim and its rather interesting that you are changing your push on me to something else."

. Massive, 1090:

"You jumped on wguerts when you thought you had found a rolling ball and had to backtrack to fill in your scum read. Doing exactly the same here."

– That's not entirely true. I launched a case against Wgeurts on late-Day1, which contained plenty of new things, in my opinion. Nero still didn't jump on that wagon – neither on late-Day1, nor now.

This has a bit more meat in it. It's something I can agree with.

(10) Heartless and Massive. Massive in 1111:

"I already know neither Anti nor TTH can actually read me."

– I wonder whether there is a proof for that. 1132 (an answer for Heartless's case) is not an informative answer, in my opinion.

I don't understand what massive is trying to achieve here, but I also don't understand how this is scummy. How is this scummy again?

Thoughts on Aneninen's case. I think someone else posted one too, lemme see.

-Ank

[50 Shades of Purple]

Absolutely.

Were you voting for a real wagon at the end of the day?

VOTE: massive

will also accept dave and 50 shades votes

all other votes are inferior and will be made fun of by me

VOTE: massive

i'm pretty pissed at all of you right now. Seriously, fuck all of you.

Why are you pissed at us?

I meant the whole game actually. But I could probably absolve anyone voting for massive at the end of the day.

Also, why are you voting massive? I recall you responded to Antihero's question about your read on massive by saying this:

massive is all cases that I understand but don't agree with, which is not strongly indicative.

How does a massive vote to start today follow?

Did you miss the end of the day yesterday? The deadline wagon that we couldn't push through? He pretty much has to die now.

after the faith game all I can say is

this looks fake as shit.

But not after NY171 or OC?
I'm sorry little miss "lurk out the deadline on a shitty wagon," I can't hear you over the gushing sound of shit spewing from where the players are supposed to be in your slot.

your slot is town cos of anti. but do you wanna like, yanno interact with us or something? cos your avoidance on your own while calling us scum would normally make me go apeshit.

maybe i can help you out here because there's too much tension here that doesn't need to be here

TTH doesn't really trust what she doesn't understand. that's just the way she is in general, btw. and she doesn't understand your sthar push. i'm trying to explain, but i don't think i'm doing a very good job.

iirc, she asked you about it before yesterday ended, but it was too close to the buzzer for you to answer.

i didn't really want to shut TTH down before she gets happy with a townread on you , buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, i think you're town so it's all just an exercise in absurdity anyway

it is a meta read and I am thinking tso is probs town cos of he started seeing the same thing. I thought he SHOULD have seen it earlier but meh.

I think star's v/la is genuine in that his availability will be unreliable and unpredictable but has already been noted he HAS been around and HAS said in the past that active lurking is a scum strategy of his so I do NOT think that his v/la is a lie cos he is defos not like that I just think that town!star would be posting more when he had the opportunity and he isn't.

Hi mollie.

Get your shit together.

I think I made a post just like this is OC.

Thanks for your time.

Badmeta and skimming and hydra-excuses are things that mollie does as scum.

{massive, mollie, dave} are good votes right now.

I don't know what you mean by hydra excuses.
I don't think "sthar tends to active lurk as scum" is a bad premise when analyzing the majority of player's meats on this site.
And skimming is something that everyone occasionally does: where exactly has Mollie skimmed and misread something of yours?

[50 Shades of Purple]

I also find that accusing us of "lurking out until deadline" is pretty fucked up, considering our sthar wagon was as big as the massive wagon until TSO's last minute flip off it.

[Death Stare]

Nothing in wgeurts' analysis is compelling to me.

-Ank

[50 Shades of Purple]

Do you mean in cases on wg or analysis by wg? What do you think of his massive votes yesterday/today?

[50 Shades of Purple]

Spoiler: Here is why I voted Massive after an ISO

He stars by voting randomly in post 8. He then lurks for 100 posts and then moves on saying he doesn't like Monkey's play and that he agrees with DS's points on monkey. He votes MM in post 112 and goes and lurks for another 100 posts.

In post 225 he posts (sarcastic?) criticism on me and in his next post (265) he post nothing but fluff. Up to post 265 and he hasn't posted anything of use or real content what so ever.

The next post with anything useful in it is post 324 were he disagrees with Monkeys reads. He may still be voting monkey by that point but he still hasn't posted anything that can be called "a case" against him.
He suddenly starts becoming useful after post 593. Wherein he also seems to become defensive of Monkey where as he was still voting for him by then.

There is a huge gap off content after that until he votes Nero in post 623 and later in 1082. He also claims vanilla very early and tries to argue that he's a mis-lynch.
He then starts using the "you have no reason to vote me" argument which is also (IMO) horribly scummy. I lack a sense of desperation that a towny wants to show he's town and is fighting to show that. Massive is just kind off lazing around going "meh". This carries on all through out the game up to his most recent post.

Why is claiming you are a vanilla townie early scummy?

[Death Stare]

Do you mean in cases on wg or analysis by wg? What do you think of his massive votes yesterday/today?

Case by wgeurts on massive; the one you quoted in #1209.

I'd have to look at him again to give you a better answer, but I'm not convinced either way of opportunistic scum or easily influenced town at the moment.

-Ank

[50 Shades of Purple]

I have misgivings with a massive wagon because of wg's vote on him and how that progressed alone. His "oh I'm just voting massive to save a VT and you know it's possible I'm claiming VT because I have fear of being counterclaimed bit I totally am not" to the asking for reasons to vote massive and the voting massive later (which seems like he was just looking for an excuse to vote massive). His case afterwards doesn't really help things, considering it boils down to "massive isn't doing anything" and other people's reasoning, which looks suspiciously like his first case on me.

[Death Stare]

wgeurts apparently never really had a massive-scumread until today.

I'm now even less impressed with the vote today.

[50 Shades of Purple]

I already know neither Anti nor TTH can actually read me. I know Nero pretty much HAS to vote me if he wants to generate any town cred for himself. But BY CROM that wguerts vote was horrible.

People jumping on wguerts for "voting without a reason" should probably look at every single person voting me b

I also have misgivings with a massive lynch based on how he's defending himself: he's kept up pretty good conviction and frustration throughout the entire process (and its hard to fake when people are absolutely right as opposed to absolutely wrong), and I like that he keeps tunneling Nero although he has much more viable options to save himself elsewhere, although I would personally be much happier if he reached out to me and looked at other scum suspects, considering we are probably looking at a team of three here as opposed to just one scumfuck.

[Death Stare]

Oh, while you're here, can you point me towards an sthar case? I'm like 90% sure your slot was a big pusher of that wagon.

-Ank

[50 Shades of Purple]

Sthar is Mollie's jam which I promised I'd get around to but haven't quite made it to yet. If she hasn't posted anything concrete on him by the time I get back, I will post something myself.

[Heartless]

I don't remember the monkeyman pressure, do you mind linking me?

Post 823

-TTH

[Heartless]

Nacho, do you have any updated thoughts on MTD?

Reviewing his ISO, I don't care for him.

-TTH

[MonkeyMan]

Wrguerts is scum. How is that not obvious by now?

[wgeurts]

Wrguerts is scum. How is that not obvious by now?

Actually I'm a town not knowing what I'm doing.
This is my first game here (I signed up to a few newbie games as you recommended) and I'm trying to make sense out of it.

[Nero Cain]

What would you say the differences in how the game is played on this site?

[wgeurts]

What would you say the differences in how the game is played on this site?

Well a lot more analysis of everything, 4x longer time periods etc.
It's all a lot more in depth here, I'm learning however I'm having to change my playstyle.

[Brian Skies]

Questions/comments may or may not matter 3 weeks after the fact, but humor me anyways.

First 11 Pages

Spoiler:

massive and anenien are scum too

just fyi

alsoalsoalso

you know when i called anenien and massive scum?

i actually didn't

you dreamed that

I'm interested in why your reads changed, especially with Massive becoming a townread for agreeing with the same post you called [Giffy?] scum for.

Oh yeah,

Death acted fishy

but first we need pressure more and see defends him and pressure them, this could provide vital information. We just shouldn't Blitz-Lynch someone yet, first we need to squeeze juice out of them.

I'm a little sad no one pushed Wgeurts on why he thought Death looked fishy (although [Giffy?] did comment on it with no response). I can understand the general newbness and wanting to push him for the other distracting and less important stuff (like why he wants to no lynch or why 3 mafia in this setup is likely). Most of Wgeurts' content after this up through page 11 is pretty underwhelming and he sticks with the general "let's be protown and pressure people despite me not doing anything productive." I don't like his slot but can't tell how much of it is just due to inexperience.

Town

Nero - I don't get the early Nero hate and I agree with this statement. I did like him going back towards wagoning Death, who he was strongly scumreading at the time (and who he wanted opinions on from anyone who seemed to have a pulse). And it makes sense to me if he thought Wgeurts could just be newbtown based on his earlier inquiry. I especially liked post 178 from him.

TTH - I feel like he has trouble filling in some gaps, but his early concerns with Aneninen and Wgeurts resonate with mine. His issues about players being opaque in the next post also seem genuine to me. Moving his vote is interesting to me because I don't understand why a scumpartner would want to move their vote if he can just ride out the preceding scumread.

Sthar8 - The way he interacted with my predecessor instead of opportunistically jumping on him feels town to me, especially considering my predecessor started it. He explains his Nero vote in this post, explaining that he thinks Nero/Monkey are going after LHF. For the most part, I can see the content in this post coming from a town mindset (especially with the part about Nero looking a little townier despite the possibility of Nero's thought process being faked).

davesaz - I liked how dave was paying attention to Monkey's unvote in the face of pressure (despite holding onto the scumread) and Nero's vote change (although I think dave should have noticed that the discussion with Wgeurts could have been the reason for the vote change). Some resonance regarding Monkey's townread on Massive's post.

MTD - I like his opening post because it doesn't look that opportunistic. I also agree with his early read on Aneninen regarding Aneninen's overall lack of content up to that point (although there are some people who just fluff up the early game). I'm not completely sure on his Gif read or why he thinks that slot is town, but I can see why he would after post 104. Doesn't do much of anything afterwards though.

Death Stare - I find it fluffy but I don't find it scummy. I find the concern of pressure shifting onto newb-Wgeurts a little townish especially in the face of it being diffused from him (should be noted in case Wgeurts is actually scum though). This slot is a pretty light townread, but something I'll reassess as it posts more.

Unsure/Maybe Scum

Monkey Man - I can see how someone would scumread Wgeurts early posting about no lynching. However, I'm not a fan of this post because I don't understand why Massive's post merits a townread. Other than that, I understand the frustration over people coddling newer players. He's probably town even though I have him in this section.

Wgeurts - I don't really know how much experience he had on this site when the game started, but he does remind me a bit of me in my first Newbie game regarding the cautiousness and not wanting to vote. I'm concerned about how he says things that I think he'd expect to be read as pro-town (probably based on his experience elsewhere), and most of his early posts don't do anything to generate content or find scum. He also seems really noncommittal regarding his Death read.

Aneninen - Fluffy. I didn't like his early content-less posting where he tries to find a contradiction from Wgeurts based on setup. I find it a little interesting that he has early scumreads on Monkeyman and Nero in this post but leaves his vote on my predecessor (I can understand leaving an early vote on someone with little presence though). Wanna bet? I disliked this post a lot. At a glance it looks like a lot of effort, but as I read through it, a lot of it feels forced and flat. I also don't like how he has my slot as a strong townread (I wouldn't have put my predecessor anywhere near that high) and Sthar as a strong scumread. To me it looks like he's ready to buddy my slot and make a push he thinks might look okay. His concerns on activity in his following posts also seem a little lazy, although I have seen town express similar concerns (Gooner scumreading half a playerlist for it comes to mind).

Through Page 18

Spoiler:

Some post about Aneninen's delicious hunger for rope.

I liked this post. It accurately reflects my impression of Aneninen's post.

Hmmm... Monkey man is playing differently this game a quick search of his posts shows. Though DeathState seemingly not caring and changing his vote to MonkeyMan when seemingly under fire is odd. No ones going for a no lynch so I'll go with VOTE: DeathStare.

I don't understand your reasoning for voting Death. What about it strikes you as scummy and what motivation do you think Death might have for deflecting a wagon "away" from you?

*Note: I'm not accepting any responsibility for Fox/Sthar interactions (or anything Fox related for that matter) and am now skipping them. I don't see Sthar throwing any shade on my slot like my predecessor claims. Although I do find it interesting that Sthar never scumreads my predecessor. This slot is town and I will make it very obvious that it is.

My read on scum at the moment is:
DS and Monkey

Hmmm... Monkey man is playing differently this game a quick search of his posts shows. Though DeathState seemingly not caring and changing his vote to MonkeyMan when seemingly under fire is odd. No ones going for a no lynch so I'll go with VOTE: DeathStare.
I honestly can't see how the Sthar vote is logical though, sam for Aneninen vote. Could you clarify those votes possibly?
Also we shouldn't let stavrogin slip our view, he's been online plenty of times to post but only posted some "bed, post latet" stuff.

Very unnecessary ambiguity. Strawman arguements. Im still scumhunting outside of him, but he is my best vote right now.

My argument for Monkey is gut, however DS has changed votes convieniently to Monkey while votes started to be posed against him, Monkey is a great choice as there was already a little discussion on how his wishy-washy reasoning was odd. This could be a true vote, or it could have been an attempt to start a bandwagon and divert attention.
Monkey also honestly doesn't seem to give a crumpet about there being 4 votes against him, you can see no irritation or determination in his posts.

These reads feel really easy and lazy for some reason (maybe because they were already the popular wagons or something). What motivation do you think Gif has for diverting a wagon "away" from you? You're also fence-sitting here.

*Note: I don't care. Inactivity /= scum (although it is antitown and I would purge it if necessary).

I've been seeing quite a few walls up to this point and it's starting to get annoying.

You're in for a bad time then.
I'm starting to skip walls without realizing it though (I am not immune)...

disagree about daves.

About what? It looks like TTH has a nullread there.

However Monkey giving up on pushing my lynch is odd, if he is truely convinced he would fight to the bitter end. To me this looks scummy that he gave up and is pursuing new targets, a scum wouldn't care who dies as long as it isn't a fellow scum. He also seems to be trying very hard to look town in his posts breaking his only case against me.
VOTE: MonkeyMan

Him giving up is also rather conviently times with him starting to gain votes against him, now he's making less posts with content.
It's all adding up now.

I disagree with him dropping his push being scummy. If he's already been trying to push his wagon and it's not going anywhere, wouldn't it be better to go elsewhere and find other scum?

*Note: I don't meta-dive people, although I will get curious if you say I'm wrong about something.

Your read on Death Stare is also weird and I don't like it.

Let's discuss Gif-hydra.

If I were to not "divert attention" and followed the flow, what would I be doing?

Making pushes that didn't suck, for one.

^This is the last post I've read and it's because I don't have time to fully catch up tonight. I did mention this earlier in the form of a question to Wgeurts. And I'm still interested in Wgeurt's response to it. While I thought the person who posted these reads may have looked a little okay, I don't like the person pushing Gif here.

This is all I have the time for today. I'll finish up tomorrow.

[Aneninen]

As for Sthar's 1171: to tell the truth, I'd been thinking a lot about that post, I'd examined a lot of possibilities but I was able to conclude much fewer things than I wanted to. Partly beacuse of Heartless-TTH's post: 1193

This is everything I found out:

(1) If Massive is scum, the counterwagon might have been Sthar8 and in this case, either 50Shades or Wgeurts is scum, or both of them. The scums might have gone for No Lynch instead of bussing because Massive is a scum-PR and avoiding his lynch was a priority. If both Massive and Wguerts are scum, the Mafia (it's 89% that there are 3 Mafias assuming there's no SK) must have advised Wgeurts to bus Massive on Day2. This may explain his Day2 vote.
(2) If Massive is town, the scums might have missed the opportunity of a mislynch because they weren't here. (Apart from Massive) three playes didn't post in the last 24 hours before Deadline: 50Shades, DeathStare and GreyFox (now BrainSkies). (MTD only posted a prod dodge but he could have moved his vote if he had wanted to.) However, many players weren't here in the last couple of hours – or at least it seems so.

Even these conclusions are a bit unsure because, as TTH pointed it out, there were no real wagons before Sthar's vote.

_______

@Massive. You didn't claim at L–1, nor at L–2. That was L–5 and THIS is a huge difference. Even if you tried to tell us that it was L–2! Unless a claim helps the town (eg. being able to tell a valuable piece of information having an investigative PR), an unforced claim doesn't help the town. And I've already explained the benefits of such a claim for the scum faction.
The first part of your 1182 seems to be an attempt of shutting down the topic.

@50Shades-Mollie Stop that bullshyt! Sthar is most probably town, I've already explained why. We're not lynching him Today. Aaand, while you're saying that Sthar is scum, sheeping Nero and Heartless with that vote without posting anything about Massive!? Welcome to my scumpool! Some other reasons are posted above too.

@DeathStare. 1204 – That post was about Massive, it contained many things, but I explained in the same post that not everything had been scummy in Massive's gameplay. Why was (4) a "reaction-fish"? In (6) I meant 610, not 620. My bad.
Check out the later posts we're talking with Massive in too.
And yes, Wguerts's case against Massive was pigeon poop. What's your read on Wguerts?

@BrainSkies. I'll reflect to your reads on me if needed as soon as you finish your catchup. In advance, I tell you that your slot was townread by me only because at that point Sthar was a strong scumread of mine. You can find my interrogation and Sthar's answers and my reasons for dropping the case.

[massive]

If you can't (or don't want to) answer my question, then don't post a paragraph regurgitating the same thing you've alrwady said.

Will post more when in front of a computer shortly