Open 573: C9++

[MonkeyMan]

Activity is dead.

[sthar8]

You guys could lynch me and then you could talk about how mollie's scum.

[davesaz]

Activity is dead.

You have the option of contributing to the problem or the solution. Seems quite a few of your recent posts are contributing to the problem.

Do you have any other scum reads? Or reads in general? No, I don't want to read the thread, I want you to say what you're thinking.

Why move your vote away from someone who is clearly scum to you, and onto someone who posted a setup theory? Why not change your vote back?

I can't tell if Heartless and 50Shades moving off massive is the result of a legitimate read on sthar, or scum trying to keep us so confused we can't lynch anyone.

One of my problems this game is that the hydras are not internally consistent, which is keeping my reads on them in a continuous state of churn. When there are 2-3 players in a game who are highly inconsistent, it makes the game very difficult. More problems are the AtE's like sthar's "fuck you all" post, which is either sad if the V/LA was legit, or genius if it was not. Add a few apathetic (probable) townies, and there isn't enough material to get a definite scum!!! on anyone.

I guess the best thing to do is concentrate on the best available maybe scum.
VOTE: wgeurts

[davesaz]

You guys could lynch me and then you could talk about how mollie's scum.

With two votes, you're posting this? Nothing keeping you from doing things like, actually hunting scum. Considering that at least two of us (wgeurts and myself) are lacking the meta background, quoting stuff in this thread to push your scum reads would be a really good thing

TM

. Not that I really care that much about you convincing wgeurts, since he's probably scum, but you could make it easy for me. Unless you're trying to make it hard on us.

If you're town and blowing off the game with no reason, that's against wincon. I give you benefit of the doubt that there could be a reason...

[davesaz]

235 is some good insight into wgeurts at that point in the game, and digs at Nero and MonkeyMan for their focus on newbietells.

I also disagree with this. Not only do I know that I'm town and I feel like Monkey is town (he has 1 post that makes me a lil' uneasy but meh) so he's misreading two townies, but that's null. Both voting for no lynch and or advocating for no lynch and defending a "pl" or in this case, a perceived pl, or both things that can and have come from newb scum. Wgurts is just as likely to receive a red pm as the rest of us so him being a newbie doesn't mean we should ignore bad/newbie play. You should not be using this as a towntell for sthar me thinks.

I'm using it in read progression on sthar, to answer the question "was the focus moving during the active period". It's trying to read the active period and see what that says if we ignore the inactive period. More recently, I'm losing faith in sthar big time. Even if the V/LA was genuine, behavior after the V/LA looks like crap. I just posted a wake up call, we'll see what happens.

I expected a newbtown wgeurts to wake up and adjust. That didn't happen, and it's been going downhill, hence my vote.

[Heartless]

I can't tell if Heartless and 50Shades moving off massive is the result of a legitimate read on sthar, or scum trying to keep us so confused we can't lynch anyone.

oh wow, that's fucking rich coming from you

someone who's been voting non-consensus vanity wagons all game

[davesaz]

If I don't think someone is scum, I'm not going to join the wagon.
Try actually proving a case, maybe someone will believe you. And something which is not meta based, because I don't give a rat's ass about the meta.

[davesaz]

Try reading the next paragraph BTW.

[MonkeyMan]

Activity is dead.

You have the option of contributing to the problem or the solution. Seems quite a few of your recent posts are contributing to the problem.

Do you have any other scum reads? Or reads in general? No, I don't want to read the thread, I want you to say what you're thinking.

Why move your vote away from someone who is clearly scum to you, and onto someone who posted a setup theory? Why not change your vote back?

I can't tell if Heartless and 50Shades moving off massive is the result of a legitimate read on sthar, or scum trying to keep us so confused we can't lynch anyone.

One of my problems this game is that the hydras are not internally consistent, which is keeping my reads on them in a continuous state of churn. When there are 2-3 players in a game who are highly inconsistent, it makes the game very difficult. More problems are the AtE's like sthar's "fuck you all" post, which is either sad if the V/LA was legit, or genius if it was not. Add a few apathetic (probable) townies, and there isn't enough material to get a definite scum!!! on anyone.

I guess the best thing to do is concentrate on the best available maybe scum.
VOTE: wgeurts

I just have a case that not a single person has commented on. Don't say I am part of the problem when people are not responding to anything I creaking say.

[davesaz]

You don't consider my posts to be agreement / commenting on your case? Or I'm not a person?

[davesaz]

Or is this some other case you're talking about?

[50 Shades of Purple]

Nacho, do you have any updated thoughts on MTD?

Reviewing his ISO, I don't care for him.

-TTH

I liked him a little bit when he made his second catchup, but then he continued doing absolutely nothing and I'm back to not really liking him.

[50 Shades of Purple]

Basically all the "I'm not talking about whatever because I called nacho and we didn't talk about mafia!" is empty and useless and excuses for avoiding things.

I don't really think this is fair: all of those things you pointed out were things that were addressed pretty soon after those excuses were made. You've also hydra'ed before and you know people like to run their hydrae in different ways, so this point is just picking on how our hydra is run unless you're trying to argue that we aren't producing content.

[50 Shades of Purple]

The argument is that I lurk tactically for advantage as scum. a) I haven't been active lurking, I was actually just v/la for a while and b) mollie started pushing me for being absent while I was V/LA and didn't let up when I came back. She knows my meats, she knows I can be inconsistent sometimes. She knows it's not a scumtell, and in fact she knows that I'm more likely to be super active as scum.

She attacked you while you were being V/LA for posting elsewhere, which I don't find unreasonable if you're known for tactical lurking.

[50 Shades of Purple]

Sure, it's also a sign that you're not engaged in the game. Mollie has a harder time engaging as scum. I think it's cause she's so sweet.

And really? Not being aware of the nightkill?

When Mollie is scum, it is obvious that she isn't engaged because she doesn't post and she doesn't believe in her pushes: she doesn't mind reading games as scum more than she minds reading games as town, she minds posting and manipulating people. If you want to make a case for us being unengaged, make the case.

[50 Shades of Purple]

I thought about it and I think your theory is flawed, sthar.

Maybe but mollie and nacho are both proficient enough to know that we needed to start consolidating. What did they do instead? Stop posting. I think they were hoping that my wagon would be the deadline compromise, shitty as it was.

I didn't strategically stop posting, I figured that your wagon would be the deadline compromise and I think that was a reasonable belief to hold at the time considering no one was calling you town. I think that your attempt to solidify massive as confirmed scum because he didn't get lynched yesterday is crap.

[50 Shades of Purple]

For real, what do I have to do to get people to talk to or about me?

What do you think of sthar?

[50 Shades of Purple]

I am waiting for brian to fully catch up.

I feel like monkey's post about feeling left out reads as lost town. I DON"T get the same vibe from wgurtz thing.

I got to like page 31 today (walls and arguments out of nowhere slowed me down), and I'm hoping I can finish my catch up tomorrow. I decided not to do a similar post to my last one because I don't feel like posting things that will be redundant.

I agree with you that Monkey's probably town. His conviction and frustration reads genuine to me.

I don't know what changed between page 31 and now that you don't get similar vibes from Wg because I thought your slot was townreading him yesterday. But I've generally gotten the feeling that he's playing cautiously and trying to look pro-town by saying pro-town things while actually not doing anything productive (at least not up to where I'm at). And I can't wrap my head around what he thinks is scummy about Death. It feels fabricated.

Also voting monkey if my gut is right would make monkey seem alot less scummy in the case of DS' es death.

this guy is literally styling on pretty much 80% of the game right now

I don't understand what he's saying in that post and I didn't think it was that important. Could you explain it to me since you seemed to be pretty giddy about it?

@Nero: I was scumreading you in Apocalypse only because you were trying to get Titus lynched and I was strongly townreading her. I have no comment on the other game.

I thought wg was town earlier in the game, but then started hating him after his reaction to his wagon. In particular, I didn't like his jump on massive's wagon and I didn't like his vote on massive Day 2, nor have I liked anything he's said Day 2.

[50 Shades of Purple]

I was giddy when wg was posting earlier because he had Death Stare in his sights, who I thought was scum and still think is scum, and then was starting to drop the monkey scumread he had earlier. This was cool in a time when I didn't feel many people were drawing solid conclusions.

[50 Shades of Purple]

If I don't think someone is scum, I'm not going to join the wagon.
Try actually proving a case, maybe someone will believe you. And something which is not meta based, because I don't give a rat's ass about the meta.

What are your full thoughts on sthar?

[Death Stare]

I guess the best thing to do is concentrate on the best available maybe scum.
VOTE: wgeurts

Can you point to somewhere in the thread where you explain this?

-Ank

[davesaz]

I've been thinking wgeurts is scum for a long time. But since you ask I can see that I never fully explained it in my own words.

Spoiler: long quoted post

Okay, there are less than

13

12 hours left so I can't wait more with this. I'm posting the case I've been thinking about for a while. (Even if it seems to be a drastic change of my reads.)

Wguerts has been wasting our time all the time and done no real scumhunting at all.

Spoiler: about Wguerts...

We were fooled by his early-posts. (Okay, not all of you but I was fooled, definitely.) By suggesting No Lynch and talking about theoretical question he had two goals, in my opinion. First of all, he wanted to "detour" the game (and I was stupid enough to get engaged in conversations about the setup, about theories, etc.). Plus, he wanted to wait until cases against other players were emerging.

In 165 he was "tempted to lynch Nero" but did nothing. (As far as I can remember, Nero was FoS according to many players' reads.) Null-posts and the "let's do No Lynch" posts followed that point for a long time.

In 289 he asked

"Any articles anywhere I can read to improve?"

. But I had told him in 121

"Also, Wguerts, wiki.mafiascum.net is your friend."

. It seems that he wasn't (hasn't been?) reading the thread at all!

In 295 things changed, he voted for DeathStare (his reasons were vague, I think). However, in that post and in 298 he told us that his scumread were MonkeyMan and DeathStare – those were the longest wagons at that time!!!

Aaaand, surprise! In 397 he posts a long case against Monkeyman and votes him a single post later! By that time, DeathStare had 3 votes (including his vote), Monkeyman had 4. Yet again, he joined the longest wagon and put Monkeyman to L–2.

Than a long pause comes in his posts. Keeps on suspecting Monkeyman and then, in 664 he votes for 50Shades. (Again, he turned that wagon into the longest one.) A naked vote! He explains his vote much later, in 787/788. Yes, those contained valid points but I've read that part again. Am I right that his case contained nothing new and contained only very old things? Also, in 757 he told that his scumread was Monkey, and a post later he corrected himself to Monkey and 50Shades. (He was voting for 50Shades at that time). Again, his scumreads were mirroring the most popular wagons.

We ignored 915. Check this:

MTD

(in 913):

"Well shit. I completely forgot about this. I will try to catch up -.-"

Wguerts's answer was:

"Have fun, I've completely lost it after doing the same."

– was he suggesting MTD

not

trying to catch-up at all??!

974 is important too.

"Could we like, make a decision as a group or something? Right now we are all aimlessly voting random people. If everyone puts everyones names plus no lynch in a list with most wanted at the top and least at the bottom I'll do an istant run-off vote so we can actually progress. Who will join this?"

– I've checked and they indeed used a similar system in the game he linked for me. Though, as far as I can remember, this system was criticized by some players there! (I might be wrong here, I didn't read the whole game, it was terrible and not because of Wguerts – don't put it in a wrong way.)
But it's more important that I asked a question about that post in 1008 and he's never answered it. That was not the only case: as far as I can remember, he tends to ignore questions, while...
...he answered my question about his games on his other site quickly! Sooooo, if he's been able to answer a question which he may have considered an unimportant one (as for this game), why doesn't he answer "real" IN-game questions??? He even started a conversation with me about that other game!!!

Finally, his vote for Monkeyman in 1020. Again, without any reasoning (though, check out his "explanation". Just check it out!). I've been waiting for a detailed post about Monkeyman but I don't think it'll ever arrive.

TL;DR version: Wguerts
(1) does no real scumhunting
(2) keeps voting for the most popular scumreads/wagons
(3) parrots things pointed out by others in his arguments
(4) gets engaged into a conversation eagerly if it's NOT about this particular game but is unwilling to give (proper) answers if there are questions about the game itself.

Wguerts is likely scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wguerts
Sorry, hoor!

@Everyone
If you think that my case is wrong, point it out quickly, please! If not, we might have enough time for this wagon.

I'm off to work in an hour or so, I'll try to read (and make short mobile posts in every 2–3 hours or so) but I can't promise anything. When I get home we'll watch Twin Peaks with my sweetheart, because we watch the whole series every fall. So, most probably I'll be unable to produce another detailed post Today.
As for other wagons (briefly, because I'm in a hurry).
Unless the forthcoming posts change my reads drastically, my opinion is the following. I'd lynch Davesaz but that won't happen, I suppose. Monkeyman is sort of okay, I posted about this before. (He's either newb-town, or the SK if we have one). 50Shades and Massive: I'm unsure about these. Sthar8 and Nero are bad ideas, I'm unwilling to lynch them Today.

I saw the same things on wgeurts. On phone so cant easily quote with the small screen and kbd.
VOTE: wgeurts

I need to get my shit together and do RL things right now. There is more stuff since then on wgeurts which doesn't make him any less scum IMO.

[davesaz]

Crap, hit the wrong button and some things that should be in the spoiler are not. And I could have trimmed the quoted stuff to just wgeurts related. Oh well...

[Heartless]

VOTE: wgeurts

I am also more than happy with this wagon for reasons previously explained. I also know a few of my townreads (Nero Cain, 50 Shades, and Anenien) who would also vote this wagon so it seems to be our best hope of reaching a consensus right now.

There are a few things I'd like to say to Anenien and dave that I won't right now because I'm too tired. So I'll push it to tomorrow.

-TTH

[Jingle]

bumpity.