Open 573: C9++

[davesaz]

@ everyone- I'd like to see suspect pools from all of you. I currently have heartless and Anen as town, leaving me with {brian, massive, nero} as my lynch pool. TellTaleHero's silence is making me paranoid though, they might switch spots with nero.

How about you post an update on your reasons for this suspect pool, aside from AA9's slot?
Does that need to wait for the catchup?

[Aneninen]

For everyone's information: Majiffy's leaving has NOTHING to do with his alignment here.
(I know that this post is against my case against that slot, but it's true.)

[Jingle]

Deadline restarted. New Deadline is Sunday, November 16th at 1:00 PM in (expired on 2014-11-16 13:00:00)

[Antihero]

HEY EVERYBODY

i'll do this game sometime tomorrow I PROMISE YOU TTH I WON'T LET YOU DOWN

sometimes tomorrow

jingle your avy looks like a reindeer on pcp

[Jingle]

Vote Count 4.6

Flavor?

massive (3): Nero Cain, Heartless, MonkeyMan
Nero Cain (1): massive
Aneninen (1): ArcAngel9
ArcAngel9 (1): Aneninen
MonkeyMan (0):
sthar8 (0):
davesaz (0):
Heartless (0):
No Lynch (0):
Not Voting (8): sthar8, davesaz

With 8 Alive, it is 5 to Lynch or No Lynch.

It is now Day 4. Deadline is in (expired on 2014-11-16 13:00:00) at 1:00 PM on Sunday, November 16th Pacific Time.

[Nero Cain]

New Deadline is Sunday, November 16th at 1:00 PM in 1 day, 14 hours, 26 minutes

She still won't catch up by then.

For everyone's information: Majiffy's leaving has NOTHING to do with his alignment here.

ummm...I don't really agree. Its kinda nullish b/c both alignments replace out though I HAVE seen scum replace out when they are under pressure. So unless you are saying that you knew why Jiffy replaced out then I really don't understand why you think it couldn't be alignment indicative.

@ everyone- I'd like to see suspect pools from all of you. I currently have heartless and Anen as town, leaving me with {brian, massive, nero} as my lynch pool. TellTaleHero's silence is making me paranoid though, they might switch spots with nero.

How about you post an update on your reasons for this suspect pool, aside from AA9's slot?
Does that need to wait for the catchup?

Says the guy who wouldn't talk about who is mafia.

[Nero Cain]

VOTE: Majiffy
Because this is my surest read now.

As scummy as that slot is....that vote kinda suxs 'cause dl was getting close so your vote was potentially contributing to a nl.

Anyways, Massive is our lynch today but don't lynch him till I get in a post tomorrow.

[Nero Cain]

massive (2): Nero Cain, Heartless, MonkeyMan
Nero Cain (1): massive
Aneninen (1): ArcAngel9
ArcAngel9 (0): Aneninen

Anen is voteless, so are one of me, Heartless and Monkey.

Who is stealing the town votes?

[davesaz]

Highly confident
2 conftown (Monkey, Dave)
1 town (Aneninen)

Somewhat confident
1 weak town (Massive)

Not confident at all
2 possible SK (Nero, Sthar8)
2 possible mafia (Heartless, ArcAngel9 slot)

I'm very unhappy about lynching Massive. Nero has been harping on Massive the whole game without even an iota of a case that I can understand (or more accurately remember).

I'm also very unhappy with the 3 townies I haven't positively ID'd. I can't read people who aren't posting. Reading people who are OMGUSing each other is more difficult than when they are not. You aren't distinguishing yourselves enough from the 2 non-town players, in ways that are unambiguously town.

There is a definite non-alignment indicative reason that Majiffy was replaced. I don't know site policy on discussing those reasons, though it is in the open for anyone to see who looks around a bit. The only thing that keeps me from calling the holder of that slot straight up scum is a little pity over replacing in to such a horrible slot so close to deadline. Maybe we should mercy lynch, if for no other reason than to preserve an active player to get some reads.

[Aneninen]

@Nero, your latest posts were wrong. (wrong =/= bad)
I have a case against that slot (right now against ArcAngel) and I posted it eg. in 1716. Since Majiffy's slot is my main suspect, It's no surprise that wanted to know why Majiffy had left the game and I found out that he had been site-banned.

Mod:

delete the lates part of this sentence if I'm not allowed to tell this.
Also, it's not the first time when the numbers in the VC don't show the amount of the names. It happened before a couple of times (even at Lynch) but that didn't affect the game.

@Davesaz, I'd really like to know more about your reads.

[Jingle]

Mod: delete the lates part of this sentence if I'm not allowed to tell this.

This is public knowledge. There is no problem mentioning it. If anyone has any questions about what can and cannot be posted, feel free to pm me to ask.

Who is stealing the town votes?

Votes were temporarily stolen by Gremlins. I have murdered these gremlins savagely and the votes have been restored.

Prodding massive and MonkeyMan.

[Nero Cain]

@Nero, your latest posts were wrong. (wrong =/= bad)
I have a case against that slot (right now against ArcAngel) and I posted it eg. in 1716. Since Majiffy's slot is my main suspect, It's no surprise that wanted to know why Majiffy had left the game and I found out that he had been site-banned.

I did NOT know that Jiffy had been site banned. Your post makes more sense now but still that vote was a lil' silly 'cause it was near the old dl.

I'm very unhappy about lynching Massive.

I'd kinda like to hear more from Majiffy, Sthar8, and Aneninen before end of day, so I won't push massive to L-1 right now.

^^^^
So what does that mean then?

Nero has been harping on Massive the whole game without even an iota of a case that I can understand (or more accurately remember).

Like I know you aren't reading very well 'cause like on d1 or maybe 2 you kept asking me about why I was voting Mollie and claimed that I wasn't explaining my reads despite me posting explaining my reads and then you kept saying that I wasn't responding to you...even though I was. Its kinda like that.

The crux of my case is that his early day2 claim wasn't town motivated
up until recently, he did nothing but defend himself
he's a confirmed liar

I guess in the morning I can make a bigger case with quotes and neat formatting.

so yeah its not like I haven't said this before so I don't get why you keep ignoring what I'm saying and then chide me for not saying things 'cause you haven't read them. You may infact be the scummiest confirmed town in the history of mafia.

[Aneninen]

Nero, you might have missed my list about my preferences in 1716.

But, I'll repost it with some modifications. From most preferred to least preferred lynches are:

(1) ArcAngel9 – I strongly think that his slot is the SK, see my recent posts
(2) Heartless – possible mafia partner of 50Shades
(3) Massive – possible mafia partner, least likely than Heartless but Nero's "up until recently, he did nothing but defend himself" made me think.
(4) Sthar8 – might be SK, he has been posting no content in 9 days... He asked for our reads in 1636 but he's never posted his reads.
(5) Nero – I can see no reasons for lynching him.

I know I'll be a busy day tomorrow. So, if nothing happens I'll move my vote for Massive so as to avoid No Lynch when I go to bed (GMT+1). I know that I'm one of the slowest players and I also know that I've missed a couple of lynches in several games because of being away.

[davesaz]

This is really long so I'll spoiler.

Spoiler: Nero on Massive part 1

Why are you pretending like I wasn't voting him in 83?

It's a throwaway vote and you spend the whole post talking about how Death Stare is scummy and not wguerts. Are you saying you want us to believe you found wguerts legitimately scummy at this point?

Are you kidding me right now? The first sentence of 83 is me saying why I disliked wegurts post. The only part about DS was the last sentence. I don't think town would misrep me like that. You are also implying that I'm scum but not using your words. None of that comes from town.

massive
dave
sthar
50?
maybe wegurts

OMGUS is the reason, with a side of "he misrepped me"

You don't know, as in you're not suspicious of Death Stare anymore or... what? This recent post makes me think you still think Death Stare is scum, that's why I even asked about it in the first place.

idk as in I'm doubting myself. All of Massive, sthar, dave look really scummy and Mollie hydra and wegurts are still p suspicious to me. Stav is a totes unknown. That's already six and I'm more confident that scum is in the first 5 so GIF gets a pass today.

Going "x player always calls me scum so player calling me town means they are scum" is bad reasoning unless you can back it up, which you can't,

True story, I once lynched scumMuffin for the same thing. There is an ongoing element so I don't want to talk to much about this but it is a good idea to go through my games. What happens if I go through my games and find that Mollie calls me town as scum and scum as town?

Wait-oh. Have I misread Nero so far?
I've checked those posts and his votes. It seems that while he's voting for a player he keeps posting why another player is scum instead of giving arguments why the voted one is scum. Am I making out things of nothing again?

I really hate this post though. You are blindly agreeing with Massive's really bad push. I mean there's more than 1 scum in this game and I'm going to answer questions directed at me so I don't see how you can think that me answering a question about why I had voted player X but my vote is on player Y. Singular and or limited scumhunting is the hallmark of scum.

Mentions "massive's really bad push"

(1) how exactly could a newbie-scum play to "pro-standards"? Show me, where Wguerts suggested us "passing" him.
(2) as if towns never tried to prevent a policy lynch.
(By the way, most of us have never thought that we should policy lynch Wguerts.)

Are you reading the game? Half the reason that Monkey and I are getting flack is 'cause we think its possible that wegurts is scum. He is new to this site and everyone (except you?) agrees that he's playing like a new player. What I was saying is that new scum playing like a new player to get a "pass" is not outside the realms of possibility. Wegurts has never suggested we give him a pass and I don't think I ever said that he said that. I think sthar suggested that and I do get the vibe that ppl don't want to lynch him 'cause he's new.

I have seen town try to prevent a pl but I've also seen scum try to prevent a pl. DS wasn't even a pl though and wegurts acting like it was was odd me thought.

Are you scumreading Massive too? Why? Because he scumreads you?

I'm scumreading him 'cause his push that my wegurts vote was a throwaway is all kinds of junk. Why do you think town would misrep me like that?

It's an OMGUS because "misrep". But how is saying a wgeurts vote is throwaway a misrep? Misrep would have to be a statement about your statement.

I don't follow Massive blindly. He posted a case which was based upon your read progerssion. Well, that's one possible interpretation which, in my opinion, may or may not be true. His case is significant because it made me read your posts again

well ok.

but like....Massive was saying that my reads progression made no sense.

I told him that I voted him in post 83.

And now he's basically trying to use jedi mind tricks and claim that I really wasn't scumreading wegurts.

I don't think its a different interpretation at all and I think you should feel bad for buying said case.

I still don't understand what was scummy in his newbie-ness. (Though, his naked vote was a WTF. It's strange that you haven't posted about that.)
Can you link where Sthar8 suggested freepassing him?

It wasn't sthar. Monkey was arguing with DS about Wegurts and said something along the lines of "yeah, lets give him a pass for being new." His post was obviously sarcasm though. I guess I attributed it to Sthar 'cause he was all like "nope, these are not the scumtells you are looking for."

votes for nl
defends perceived pl of DS
"HE COULD BE A SPECIAL!"=fear mongering
I also very much dislike his 75. Ignoring the gamestate.
then 180s on DS and is all the sudden ok with DS getting lynched

Could these things come from scum? yes could the come from new town? yes Should we never lynch this player 'cause he's obviously new and there's apparently zero scum motivation in this? no

I'm also sad that no one found this funny.

Nero is very hungry for blood, I suggest we question him why he wants blood.

I'M A VAMPIRE!!!

Does everyone think that Massive's case was a (1) blatant misinterpretation or an (2) intentional misrepresentation?

So you agree that it was a misrepersentation/interpretation?

This acknowledges that it could be a misinterpretation (i.e. not intentional)

vote:massive

but MTD, that whole "Nero never scum read Wegurts" seems way too dumb to come from town.

Still an OMGUS side of misrep.

nero I moved on from scumreading you like forever ago. Your various reasons overlap with TSO's quite a bit.

ok......

but calling TSO a strong player looks like whiteknighting and I think that's often from scum.

I also hate Anen. Calls my monkey case crap, agree's with Massive's stupid case on me and then sheeps me? This is very confusing.

Reasons are still the case on Nero.

VOTE: massive

will also accept dave and 50 shades votes

all other votes are inferior and will be made fun of by me

Let's get something straight right away. Several RL days have passed, and therefore it's not acceptable to just vote without saying why.

^^^^
all you need to know about why dave is an ok lynch.

vote:massive

No new reasons

TINFOIL

Massive is scum and getting bussed by wgeurts and sthar

No new reasons

Mollie, why are you calling Massive scum but not voting him?

Did you miss the end of the day yesterday? The deadline wagon that we couldn't push through? He pretty much has to die now.

Why would Massive *have* to die just 'cause his wagon didn't go through? Yes, there was a good chance he'd get wagoned up and be the days lynch but there's no "we have to lynch him."

However, I have a kind of theoretical question. Is it a good idea to quicklynch a player now? After all, we've got plenty of time now – shouldn't we try to get more information on each other before lynching? (I've never been in a game on this site where a No Lynch occured. That'swhy I'm asking this.)

In the long run I don't think it'll matter. If Massive is scum then prolonging his lynch allows his team to A.) spread around Mist and B.) work on a counter lynch. Usually discussion is considered pro-town (and it is.) but forcing discussing just 'cause dl isn't up yet seems like it would be a bad idea. If we are still talking about stuffs then fine but I don't think we should artificially draw out the day.

If massive is scum? I thought you were dead set on massive as scum. The Mollie thing ends up being insightful in hindsight, but seeing it now does nothing to bolster the case back then.

I had four votes on me at deadline and would have been lynched had anyone been paying attention. How is that "fuck all reason"?

And anything specifically scummy about my play? Calling it "horrible" seems like you don't have any idea what might have been actually indicative.

Well, I don't think you being wagoned yesterday meant you were going to 100% be the lynch today. Yeah there was a good chance but I don'think there was any reason to claim this early 'cause hypothetically you might not have been lynched and yes, that's fuck all reasoning.

Ignoring the fact that your "case" on me is all kinds of bad...I do not like you claiming early. Also a lil' ticked off that you are selectively hunting me.

had to backtrack to fill in your scum read. Doing exactly the same here.

like here you are fussing at me that I'm retroactivly giving reasons why I was voting you and wgeurts.

but wgeurts is doing the same thing.

Still OMGUS.

I like how you are voting for me but have no anticipation of me being lynched.

and I like how you are desperately trying to twist my words. You got wagoned yesterday, there was a good chance you'd get wagoned today but that does NOT mean that you were 100% going to be the days lynch (unless maybe it was a planned bus.) Its so frustratingly stupid that I have THE hardest time thinking you are town.

Brian is town reading me? I always get so paranoid when players that usually scum read me flip and town read me.

Why is claiming you are a vanilla townie early scummy?

I'm arguing the same thing. Why is he scummy for this and I'm not?

NEW TINFOIL!

Scum have given up on Massive and Sthar and Mollie are distancing from each other.



but Massive is still scum, there's like zero town motivation for him to claim early. And now he's intentionally playing oblivious why that is bad.

The claim approaches being a reason.

NEW TINFOIL!

Scum have given up on Massive and Sthar and Mollie are distancing from each other.



but Massive is still scum, there's like zero town motivation for him to claim early. And now he's intentionally playing oblivious why that is bad.

go me! You guys think this theory might be true?

I also have a p strong desire to kill Dave today. Still not town reading Massive and Mollie was somewhat reluctant to vote Massive despite clearly calling them scum so I think its a good chance that its a scumbuddy. + Claiming early like that had no town motivation despite what he says.

Dave/massive and maybe sthar are my preferred lynch pool.

Hindsight is easy.

So, up to this point there is a lot of "OMGUS, his case on me was bad" and "claiming early is scummy". The best indicator comes at the end, with Mollie calling Massive scum but not voting. But for that to be a good indicator, 50 Shades has to be voting someone else that 50 said was less scummy.

I see Nero taking a position and noticing events which match the read. (Does Nero ignore Massive's activity which doesn't match the read? hmmm, IDK...)
I don't see Nero explaining the position in the kind of detail that I'd hope to see from town. Disappointing, but style...

[davesaz]

The crux of my case is that his early day2 claim wasn't town motivated
up until recently, he did nothing but defend himself
he's a confirmed liar

I guess in the morning I can make a bigger case with quotes and neat formatting.

so yeah its not like I haven't said this before so I don't get why you keep ignoring what I'm saying and then chide me for not saying things 'cause you haven't read them. You may infact be the scummiest confirmed town in the history of mafia.

So, I helped you out a little and pulled the majority of your posts that included Massive, up to the first one after 50 flipped.

I didn't intend saying you'd been on Massive the whole game to literally mean you've never scumread anyone else. Maybe "since D1" would have been a better and more accurate way to put it.

The 2nd point "did nothing but defend himself" I might find persuasive. The point can be made by either scum or town. When people use this point in their case, I hope to see some effort to actually show it. No effort and screaming from the rooftops give the accuser scum points and reduces the impact of the point against the accused. Some effort, without going over the top, gives the accuser town points and vastly increases the impact against the accused.

The 3rd point "confirmed liar" is the type of thing I expect to see actual proof of. A baseless accusation can be grounds for a PL if the accuser's standing is less than a town lean.

[davesaz]

Forgot to reply to another point.

so I don't get why you keep ignoring what I'm saying

It's the brevity. 1-2 lines does not give me warm fuzzies that you have a basis for what you're saying.
So many things like "<--- is voting scum and you should sheep" and "^ is scummy".

[davesaz]

Maybe that's confirmation bias talking. Once I formed an opinion based on all the early 1-liners, it became very difficult to believe Nero. That makes me want to overlook Massive, because "the person my scumread finds scummy is probably town".

If massive, as mafia, knew who the SK was (popped BP theory), he'd want us to lynch someone other than the SK. But until Monkey and I had both claimed, he didn't know that he wasn't RB or there wasn't another PR, so wasn't sure about the SK. Taking that into account, the remaining mafia now wants to defend the SK. Massive agreed with the theory the SK is inactive, but tried to debunk the best choice for that theory (Brian/Majiffy/AA9) in a really derpy way.

If you add that to being relatively quiet (but not silent) and not really coming out until the claims, plus having established an early VT claim, plus basically parking on Nero for so long, it adds up to a pretty solid case.

Having connected the dots myself, I'm downgrading Massive to likely scum, with intent to hammer. But I'm leaving the L-1 slot open for now.

[ArcAngel9]

Okay. I tried gather some understanding of from the formers who played in this slot..but i hit the dead-end. there are way too many players who replaced into slot. So today i am going sit back and look others cases.. so i am going to sheep whoever brings best case and convinces me.

[Nero Cain]

hi scum

[ArcAngel9]

hi scum

I am not. we been in this road before.. btw. Are you scum?

[Nero Cain]

OPPS!!! My bad guysz! I need to explain my reasoning so Dave doesn't whine about me not having reasons.

First of all she's reading her slots posts which is Amishedy. And intentionally being useless with her vote.

[Nero Cain]

hi scum

I am not. we been in this road before.. btw. Are you scum?

Also, welcome to Dave scumlist.

[davesaz]

I got that one without the decoder ring, but thanks.

[Nero Cain]

I don't see Nero explaining the position in the kind of detail that I'd hope to see from town.

Says the guy that is ignoring my questions and not explaining his reads.

I didn't intend saying you'd been on Massive the whole game to literally mean you've never scumread anyone else

that's like....not even what I said and

not even what you said

.....throughout the game you've accused me of not explaining a single read of mine but if you look through my ISO the explanations are there. At one point you even said you were skimming and apparently your "skimming" made you miss posts and when you'd miss a post what you'd do is blame me for not responding.

, I strongly think that you're ignoring topics and posts – especially Nero-posts

The 2nd point "did nothing but defend himself" I might find persuasive. The point can be made by either scum or town. When people use this point in their case, I hope to see some effort to actually show it. No effort and screaming from the rooftops give the accuser scum points and reduces the impact of the point against the accused

heh. You are basically asking me to spoon feed you information. I think its illogical to give me scum points for not wanting to waste my time quoteing a bunch of points when you can click on his ISO and read for yourself. Don't you think its a bit hypocritical for you to blast me for not quoting when you aren't taking the 3 minutes to read his ISO? Are you disagreeing with me that his play isn't lacking in scum hunting?

Forgot to reply to another point.

so I don't get why you keep ignoring what I'm saying

It's the brevity. 1-2 lines does not give me warm fuzzies that you have a basis for what you're saying.
So many things like "<--- is voting scum and you should sheep" and "^ is scummy".

Would you stop cherry picking? I've explained all of my (scum) reads. If you missed my posts or are intentionally not reading my posts then you can't blame me for YOUR PLAY.

[Nero Cain]

That makes me want to overlook Massive, because "the person my scumread finds scummy is probably town".

That makes no sense though. You are accusing me of being an SK. If I were an sk I'd have no buddies and thus be legit hunting for the mafia. So if your belief is that I'm an independent 3rd party and thus have as much information as the rest of the town, why would that make my read on Massive wrong? This seems very much like a disconnect.