Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Mathdino

For wearing a hat.

[Alchemist21]

Honestly I don't think Flubber is scum because of his post about being mad. Even if he was exaggerating his anger, I don't think that's really telling.

I'm sure Mathdino is town here, and I feel like Droog's town. I played with these guys before and their play feels very much the same here. I can't say the same for wgeurts until he posts more, but I don't take his RVS vote as scummy. The game is only 3 pages in, we're sure to get some people still coming in RVS voting.

[Alchemist21]

Honestly I don't think Flubber is scum because of his post about being mad. Even if he was exaggerating his anger, I don't think that's really telling.

I'm sure Mathdino is town here, and I feel like Droog's town. I played with these guys before and their play feels very much the same here. I can't say the same for wgeurts until he posts more, but I don't take his RVS vote as scummy. The game is only 3 pages in, we're sure to get some people still coming in RVS voting.

Why would exaggerated anger read town?
How many games you played with droog? What was his alignment?

No, I'm saying that if the town decides to lynch me even though I am town, I'd rather it not be at LYLO.

Reads? Not really. I don't get reads this early into Day 1. If you wish to confirm that, you can check out my other games- that's what I pretty much always say regardless of alignment.
And if I seem defensive, please note my 1 town win and 6 town losses.

Do you have foot and mouth disease where you say the worst things that read scummy?

Have you played scum here? If so where you lynched easy as well?

I'm not saying it reads town, I'm saying it doesn't read scum. I've played one previous game (o574) with Droog where he was town. He hard pushed an early wagon on randomidget in that game. Dino and wgeurts were also in that game.

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: wgeurts

[Alchemist21]

@Mathdino: The wgeurts vote was just an attempt in getting him to post more so I might be able to get a read on him. I don't mind keeping it there until he comes back though. P.S. I had no idea wgeurts hates RVS. He openly participates in it.

@Farside: There's no scum motivation for flubber faking his emotion. Some people just exagerate things when they talk because that's who they are. There are plentynof people who say, "I was so fucking pissed," when really they were only moderately annoyed. Being mad over losing out on the draft is null, and exaggerating any emotion about it has no scum motivation because it won't get him anywhere.

TL;DR I think his post shows his personality, not scumminess.

[Alchemist21]

I wasn't expecting immediate results from him, just expected that he would respond to the vote at some point. I'm trying to get early reads on the ones I've played with before.

@Farside, you're right about it being unneccessary. It doesn't achieve anything as either alignment, which is why I'm not scumreading it.

[Alchemist21]

Then hypothetically I'd argue with you the entire day about why you should go with the majority vote.

That said, as of the wgeurts vote explanation, current scumreads are Amy, Alch, and Flubber (though I'm iffy on the latter 2 both being scum), so I wouldn't cry over it.

Edit: Alchemist, please give your top scumread or any reads if existent. The fact is that you changed your RVS vote to someone as pressure when there was no indication that he

wouldn't

come back, all the while RVS votes are pretty much for reactions in the first place.

Sorry, but I don't have any scumreads at the moment. Also, I knew wgeurts' reaction wouldn't be the only reaction I got from the vote. I was hoping there would be scum hard tunnelling me for it, but that didn't happen and the degree of reaction to it from you and Farside seem town to me. I'm still happy with you and Droog as town, and now I'm leaning town on Farside as well.

My vote also gives wgeurts something to respond to, since I don't think he would have gotten very involved in the PR theory talk.

[Alchemist21]

@Ane, I don't understand your sentence responding to my 52, "according to site rules I can't explain why." What were you saying with that statement?

[Alchemist21]

@Ane, I was referring to open 574, which got abandoned so I wouldn't consider that thread as an ongoing game. Unless you were saying you agree based on what you've seen in an ongoing game?

[Alchemist21]

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

Someone help me understand what the relevence of Daytalk is here. Ane knew what your point was but I don't see it and what that has to do with what you quoted.

[Alchemist21]

Ok droog and mathdino are town,
I'd like alchemist to do be so as well however I'm unsure on him. Also, alchemist screw you for making any negative comments on you look like WIFOM .
Anyway, I'll make a proper reads list and explanation in a sec.

How did I make them look like WIFOM?

If I were a vengeful and got lynched, I would target Wgeurts.

@Mathdino, I saw what you posted on his meta. It seems interesting to note, but I wouldn't base a case on it. I'm more concerned with how he attacked Ane for sheeping Dino on Amy, yet Droog openly admitted to sheeping someone on the wagon, and Wgeurts is calling him town. The double standard there doesn't sit well with me.

[Alchemist21]

Ok droog and mathdino are town,
I'd like alchemist to do be so as well however I'm unsure on him. Also, alchemist screw you for making any negative comments on you look like WIFOM .
Anyway, I'll make a proper reads list and explanation in a sec.

How did I make them look like WIFOM?

If I were a vengeful and got lynched, I would target Wgeurts.

@Mathdino, I saw what you posted on his meta. It seems interesting to note, but I wouldn't base a case on it. I'm more concerned with how he attacked Ane for sheeping Dino on Amy, yet Droog openly admitted to sheeping someone on the wagon, and Wgeurts is calling him town. The double standard there doesn't sit well with me.

That should of been OMGUS.

Care to explain your double standard on sheeping?

[Alchemist21]

@alchemist:
I asked you a question about this

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

Someone help me understand what the relevence of Daytalk is here. Ane knew what your point was but I don't see it and what that has to do with what you quoted.

Why did you ask others and not droog about this?

The question was directed to the playerbase at large so that anyone could respond. I felt that since someone else understood what Droog was saying, then there were probably more who understood it, and I just wanted anyine who understood it to help me understand. The question was not meant to exclude Droog from answering.

[Alchemist21]

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

Y'know, it's funny you noticed that. I'm assuming that most games here don't have daytalk, or in any case I didn't know this one did. It usually takes scum to know of something that scum has. Do you play this setup a lot?

Daytalk is a standard part of this setup. It's mentioned in the "other information" section of the wiki page.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Power_X/Y

[Alchemist21]

I don't think Amy is scum, even with the "ithis would be useful for X as scum," statements. I myself tend to think about situations from a scum perspective to try and figure out where scum motivation exists. Mathdino, I'm sure you can recall that about me from o574.

Davesaz's posts look like an attempt to look busy without actually doing anything for the town. He asks plenty of questions to people but has rarely given his own input on matters. His lengthiest posts are about things that really won't go anywhere, like discussing the Kitty comments.

[Alchemist21]

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

Y'know, it's funny you noticed that. I'm assuming that most games here don't have daytalk, or in any case I didn't know this one did. It usually takes scum to know of something that scum has. Do you play this setup a lot?

Daytalk is a standard part of this setup. It's mentioned in the "other information" section of the wiki page.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Power_X/Y

So do you read the whole Wiki page of every setup you play?

Yeah. I always like to know how the setup works before I start the game. Doing otherwise wouldn't be a good idea, or you'll get KB's "reaction test" in o571.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist where's my double standard,
Anen, why would noob hard-claim?

I assumed wgeurts would read back and find the answer to this, but since he hasn't replied I'll repeat it.

124 - Droog openly sheeps Anem's case on Amy.

133 - Wgeurts calls Droog Town.

151 - Wgeurts votes Ane for sheeping Mathdino's case on Amy.

Now my question to wgeurts: Why do you think it's scummy for Ane to sheep Mathdino but not for Droog to sheep Ane? Also, it doesn't look at all like Ane sheeped Mathdino's case in the first place, so I don't know how you even came to that conclusion.

[Alchemist21]

I was starting to feel a similar train of thought with both the wgeurts and Amy wagons last night. I don't think it's because the wagins were too easy, but because the wagons developed at around the same time and there were no counterwagons coming up.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Flubbernugget

This guy has been unproductive for town, and the, "I suck at mafia right now," excuse doesn't cut it for me.

Also, to anyone thinking Mathdino could have been bussing wgeurts, check the draft order. They took the same number, so there's no way they're scumbuddies.

Also, hi Ank! Welcome to the game.

[Alchemist21]

So Flubber's another randomidget?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Siveure

[Alchemist21]

So Flubber's another randomidget?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Siveure

Dammit alchemist, why have you changed again without reasons?

Whoops, sorry, thought I had posted my problem with him in the post where I voted Flubber. It's because he's excusing another player's lack of scumhunting. Amy's lack of scumhunting could be unintentional and because of noobiness, but that doesn't excuse it and for another player to suggest it's OK to not scumhunt is scummy IMO.

[Alchemist21]

Also, Anen's latest post looks really confbiasy. So what if she's not scumhunting?

Actually, I didn't notice this first time around. Hm.

Alchemist, do you believe scum would make a statement as obvious as "It's cool if y'all don't look for us"? This seems like a sentence scum would correct immediately with a simple reread of the post.

I don't know. It's not something I want to just completely dismiss because it seems to obvious. If we give him a pass for it, then even if he's town it gives the scum a pass for it too. This is something we need to push.

[Alchemist21]

Is it just me, or has wgeurts' English improved considerably since Open 574?

[Alchemist21]

Ok. I remember last time a lot of us gave you a pass due to English being your second language, but I'm not letting that be an excuse this time around unless there's some really advanced vocabulary involved.

[Alchemist21]

I'm of the opinion there are a great many players who don't have a clue how to scumhunt. I'm one of them. Scumreading someone purely for not scumhunting is dumb. Of course, there are scum ways and town ways of not scumhunting.

Besides that, I don't really get why I'm being voted lol.

There's a difference between trying to scumhunt and doing it wrong and then intentionally not scumhunting. You made it sound like you think it's never scummy to not scumhunt regardless of which one it is.

[Alchemist21]

Okay. The real reason my wgeurts vote is scummy is because the amy unvote only happened then. From like #170 to my unvote was basically this

i was going to unvote amy because i dont have a strong scumread there
then i realized i dont have any stronger scumreads

And yeah, my townread on dave is because he hasn't done any obvious town stuff. He has very little content, but he is not lurking at all. Or maybe it's the opposite, that he's lurking but still producing some content? Idk. It's kinda gut, and kindof the terms I'm using being so ill-defined.

Pedit: aw noooo... Don't tell me that I said something I thought was innocuous but the whole game takes as a scumslip again. Yuck.

That P-edit sounds sarcastic as hell and it's not going to get me off your back. Your Dave townread sounds weak too. You think he's town, but the two possible reasons you give for feeling that way are polar opposites.

[Alchemist21]

Is Dave your only townread? Are you confident in that read?

[Alchemist21]

So you know your play is so bad it hurts you as Town, but instead of trying to fix it and get better, you try to excuse yourself like some kind of VI? Then you say it's ok for other players to not scumhunt. How exactly do you expect Town to find Scum? If you're Town you really need to step up your game.

[Alchemist21]

Wgeurts started the wagon this time.

[Alchemist21]

Here's something else to consider. Siv is 4th in the draft order. If he's scum, I think there's a good chance he got his submitted role choice, and he would also likely be the highest scum in the draft order.

If he's town, this wagon would be an easy mislynch.

If he's scum and his draft pick returned Vanilla, then this might be a wagon where the scumteam will bus.

However, if he holds a key role for the scumteam, and we push the wagon harder, I think we'll see some ratalliation from the scum hoping to keep an important role for them in the game.

[Alchemist21]

Here's something else to consider. Siv is 4th in the draft order. If he's scum, I think there's a good chance he got his submitted role choice, and he would also likely be the highest scum in the draft order.

If he's town, this wagon would be an easy mislynch.

If he's scum and his draft pick returned Vanilla, then this might be a wagon where the scumteam will bus.

However, if he holds a key role for the scumteam, and we push the wagon harder, I think we'll see some ratalliation from the scum hoping to keep an important role for them in the game.

Dude you have no idea how many scumpoints you just got for if Siveure flips town. No idea.

The point of my post was to say we should pressure Siv to see if we get any scum resistance to the wagon.

[Alchemist21]

Well, Siv is another person I am willing to vote, so since this looks like it's happening...

VOTE: Siv

L-2

Also, it seems that one of my friends has pissed off some serious hackers, and they may be coming after me.... so I'm going to give a preemptive

V/LA for a week

incase they take down my internet.

anonymous does not have serious hackers anymore

It doesn't have to be Anonymous. There are people who can boot you offline if theh get your IP.

[Alchemist21]

Even without resistance, I want to see others' opinions of Siv and why they are or aren't on the wagon. I'll continue my approach based on how Siv and others respond to the wagon.

[Alchemist21]

I still think a wagon analysis here is worth it, and I still think Siv is scum.

[Alchemist21]

The premature claim is because I suspect the wagon will quickly go to l-1...

Tbh, I panic if I think there's a case on me. There were at least 3. Math sounded (and still does) like this was the lynch wagon.

Math, if first pick is scum, they're a good scum pr. Don't let someone being first pick stop you if you think they're scum.

And anen, please give me more credit than that. I've breadcrumbed it for you if you really want to know.

Why would you be breadcrumbing at all if you didn't get the role?

[Alchemist21]

@Mod, I'm on V/LA for the weekend.

Noted.

[Alchemist21]

wgeurts

Flubbernugget
droog
davesaz
Alchemist21
Ankamius
Amy Farrah Fowler

Siveure DtTrikyp

Aneninen
Romitelli
TheAdrienC
Mathdino

farside22

Venrob

Those that aren't bolded post your top 3 scum reads and provide reasons.

Top read is still Siv. First reason is because he said it was OK to not scumhunt. Now we have him claiming Vanilla after trying to get doc, followed by him saying in 356 that doc wouldn't be priority for top 3 town in the draft, and saying that the slot is likely a roleblocker instead and doubting the doc/roleblocker slot is town in 385.

I still don't like Dave that much. The last post he just made looks more town, but not enough to make me lean town on him yet. Still looks like he could be trying to fake his way through the game.

I don't really have a 3rd read. My gut would say Flubber, but he reminds me of randomidget and Gaiden, so I'm a little weary of a scumread there. Next choice would be Romitelli due to his lurking, but the 2 prods make me think his lurking isn't scummy, so he's null for me.

[Alchemist21]

Why the hell is ANY of the stuff you called out on me scummy?

Advocating a lack of scumhunting is scummy. You find scum and win by scumhunting.

Tell me why Town players wouldn't go for doc if they got a high draft pick. Are you saying that your spot in the draft is some magical border where all townies suddenly decide it's ok to go for doc now? You're setting it up to try and mislynch the doc by saying, "The doc/roleblocker slot were taken by someone above me, and whoever did is probably scum."

[Alchemist21]

@Ane, I didn't have a problem with him townreading Davesaz specifically, but with the lack of strong townreads. It seemed to me like he was trying to keep away from forming townreads on D1, and I asked him if he was confident in the read because I was expecting a, "no," to that question. My 315 was just to tell Mathdino that he did not start one of the wagons that he thought he did. It's not weird at all.

[Alchemist21]

Not so sure of my read on Ankamius. All of his scum reads seem opportunistic and/or shallow. The strong town read on Alchemist is also pretty shallow.

The Alchemist read seems shallow because I'm not going to go into any more detail into it. Make of that what you will, but this isn't changing.

Is this due to the fact that our other game together is still ongoing? If not, then I'd actually like an explanation for your read on me. I need to be able to understand where you're coming from.

[Alchemist21]

Now you see why I'm looking forward to the 574 reboot.

[Alchemist21]

@Formerfish, Still noobie. I expected wgeurts to respond to the vote because it was a naked vote. People just respond to naked votes in general. Having early reads on Mathdino amd Droog already, I wanted a read there so I would have early reads on all three of the people I had just played 574 with. I didn't think he would jump into the setup conversation that was going on at the time, so I voted him to give him something to talk about.

[Alchemist21]

Also, Anen's latest post looks really confbiasy. So what if she's not scumhunting?

Actually, I didn't notice this first time around. Hm.

Alchemist, do you believe scum would make a statement as obvious as "It's cool if y'all don't look for us"? This seems like a sentence scum would correct immediately with a simple reread of the post.

I don't know. It's not something I want to just completely dismiss because it seems to obvious. If we give him a pass for it, then even if he's town it gives the scum a pass for it too. This is something we need to push.

ISO'd Alchemist and saw this. Looks like scum disguising a policy vote.

Why would anyone try to disguise a policy vote? Policy votes aren't even considered scummy.

[Alchemist21]

wgeurts

Flubbernugget
droog
davesaz
Alchemist21
Ankamius
Amy Farrah Fowler

Siveure DtTrikyp

Aneninen
Romitelli
TheAdrienC
Mathdino

farside22

Venrob

Those that aren't bolded post your top 3 scum reads and provide reasons.

mathdino

--

he's all over the place, but never the right places

aneninen

-- awful cases that look better than they are

ankamius

-- i needed to pad this out

Droog, explain that part of your read. What are you calling "the right places?"

[Alchemist21]

@Droog, here is Siv's vanilla claim.

If I flip town? I'm definitely flipping then?

Also, I was kindof weirded out at the start of the game because I am actually vanilla.

Wait, I need to reread to check role stuffs...

Welp, nothing coming out of that.

[Alchemist21]

oh
then why was he breadcrumbing it

He said he was breadcrumbing the role he attempted to get (doctor), not VT.

He also went on to accuse whoever got the role of being a likely scum roleblocker on the basis of "Doc isn't a prioroty role for Town."

[Alchemist21]

Which part about it are you having trouble with?

[Alchemist21]

I don't see anything in 387 that looks like it's part of a plan.

[Alchemist21]

You have that backwards. Four on Ane and 5 on Siv.

[Alchemist21]

I still say we lynch Siv.

[Alchemist21]

Vote Alc

I'm more comfortable with Alchemist then the other two.

Vote: Alchemist

Neither of you ever mentioned having a scumread on me, so I fail to understand the votes here.

[Alchemist21]

Well, sometimes when it gets close to deadline, a man chooses a lynch that isn't the best, but it'll do for the time being. No one likes finding out they are a compromise lynch, but we've all been there at one point or another.

I already said I'm not lynching siv with venrob on that wagon, and An has claimed a role that is confirmable so he has a stay of execution. I'd like to lynch venrob but won't have enough time to get support. So its you.

So you don't think it's possible that Venrob may be bussing Siv, and your decision to choose me over ane is due to a PR softclaim by Ane?

[Alchemist21]

If I don't look like scum about to get lynched then why are you keeping your vote on me?

[Alchemist21]

Why is your Anen read preventing you from switching your vote back to Siv?

[Alchemist21]

His claim, if it's true, means scum has a 33% chance of killing the doc tonight.

He then went on to say that whoever in those three took the role fro that pair was likely scum just because he claims Town never pick doc. You even showed him where doc was chosen fairly often. How is what he did anything but an attempt to throw suspicion on the players where the doc could be?

[Alchemist21]

So how are we guaranteed that Siv didn't go for roleblocker and end up a goon?

[Alchemist21]

History of Doc Picks:

Open 542: Doc was 3rd in the draft order, no one else picked it.
Open 518: RB was taken by scum, 8th in the draft order, no one else picked it (hi Siv).
Open 506: Doc was 4th in the draft order, no one else picked it (hi Siv).
Open 486: RB was taken by scum, 3rd in the draft order. Other picks unknown.
Open 472: Doc was not taken.
Open 427: Doc was 7th in the draft order. Other picks are unknown.

So it's usually one doc pick per game. Notable that 542 had a town doc 3rd in the draft order, so your logic's a bit shoddy, Siv.

Advocating a lack of scumhunting is controversial. It's not scummy just because it's controversial. Why is it more likely from scum than town?

Like, if it just gets suspicion and does nothing else, it's indicative of a lack of foresight. Which alignment is more likely to not plan ahead how people react to their words? Especially something controversial?

This argument is literally one of the worst I've ever seen, mostly because you're saying what scum do and what town do and applying it to yourself.

Funny posts to make about a player you're townreading. Even funnier that the logic you called shoddy is what you're using to defend your decision now.

[Alchemist21]

All 3 of those slots are on the Siv wagon.

[Alchemist21]

The top 3 joined your wagon before you ever even claimed Vanilla. Don't even try to pass it off as OMGUS.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: AdrienC

His sudden naked vote on me was scummy.

@Formerfish, do you still think Venrob is scum?

[Alchemist21]

Yes. Why wouldn't I? Did you are anything that would make me change my mind?

No. I'm just thinking that unless Venrob is scum then the Siv wagon was all town. I'll be keeping my eye on him.

P-edit: Usually you can find a reason for a vote in another post. Ade gave absolutely no reason when he voted me.

Also I'm still sure Dino is town.

[Alchemist21]

Not really. My line of thinking was that if Siv actually turned out to be town, he could be easily mislynched without the scum needing to be on the wagon, so I'm focusing on players that weren't on the Siv wagon.

[Alchemist21]

If Mathdino had a townread on Siv, his play made sense. I'd wager that the only reason he ultimately switched to Siv near the deadline was he was doubting his scumread on me enough to decide the risk of lynching a PR wasn't worth it.

Combined with how he played before attention shifted to Siv, which reminds me of his o574 play, I think he's Town.

[Alchemist21]

Can you lynch amy so I don't break my promise.

What promise?

[Alchemist21]

If you have a stronger read on Amy you should vote Amy.

Also, give reasons for your read on both of them.

[Alchemist21]

Droog, I don't understand how you went from voting Dino to voting Ade in just a few posts.

[Alchemist21]

Droog, I don't understand how you went from voting Dino to voting Ade in just a few posts.

I would still gladly vote Dino
But does adrien in say end not look scummy??

Of corse he looks scummy, but the train of thought you followed to get from Dino to Ade looks weird.

[Alchemist21]

Yes. Why wouldn't I? Did you are anything that would make me change my mind?

No. I'm just thinking that unless Venrob is scum then the Siv wagon was all town. I'll be keeping my eye on him.

P-edit: Usually you can find a reason for a vote in another post. Ade gave absolutely no reason when he voted me.

Also I'm still sure Dino is town.

I just remembered that Flubber naked voted amy.
Did you vote for him?

Looks
You thought it was random even though he clearly went to amy and then gerts



Explain

I looked back at Flubber's vote on Amy and it looks like it was to say he wanted her to vote, similar to my early vote on wgeurts.

Ade gave literally no reason, not even a hint of one, for his vote on me. It looks like just jumped on my wagon to ride out the deadline. Look at the reads he posted before-hand. He never even mentions me, so the vote lacks any sense. Formerfish did the same, but later called it a compromise lynch so at least he gave a reason. Ade completely ignored me when I asked for an explanation.

@Flubber, I think there's at most 1 scum on the siv wagon, so to me it makes more sense to look at players off the wagon.

[Alchemist21]

What are you basing that idea off of? Are you just guessing?

Partially, although I have at least a slight townread on most of the players who were on the Siv wagon. Also, don't get mad because I brought up your vote on me. I was showing that you and adrien started in a similar position (giving a naked vote), and when questioned you were willing to give a reason whereas Adrien completely dodged the question. Hell, the 1 possible scum to me is Venrob, and that's coming from what you said about him and his V/LA.

[Alchemist21]

Alc if you think Ven could be scum why not go for him?

I think Ade is scummier, plus what you pointed out abot Venrob would be the only thing I've seen from him I would call scummy, so for now he only has IGMEOY status.

[Alchemist21]

Okay, I'm back. Why am I being voted for? I think I heard someone say something along the lines of my vote to end the last day phase, but I was trying to get some form of a lynch going before deadline. My ISO supports that.

You also claimed a scumread on Siv while never claiming any kind of read on me, so it makes no sense why you voted me as a compromise lynch over him.

[Alchemist21]

Yet your never-mentioned "read" on me was?

[Alchemist21]

@Farside, His 820 vote is pretty bad. The timing of Ade's vote was also a factor for me though.

I do have a problem with what Flubber said about my vote and policy votes in general. Right now, as far as voting matters go, I think Ade looks scummier.

The second reason I'm not voting Flubber is that I'm noticing something off about Droog's play. His playstyle is looking different this game than it was in Open 574, and I'm in the process of doing a meta to see if this is scummy for him or not. I thought it was similar earlier in the game, but looking back I'm noticing he sheeped a lot more in the early game. I also don't recall him being a smartass about semantics when asked to explain something. I'm still going off the assumption that scum didn't take the same draft numbers, so I don't think Droog and Flubber would be scum together.

You said you've played with Flubber before. Have you noticed anything that's different about him this game that would indicate scumminess (aside from his RVS comment, I know you think that was scummy for him).

[Alchemist21]

It's a vote that you gave no reasoning for.

Then again, it's on the same player I'm voting, and I don't know if scum would be that lazy about bussing.

UNVOTE:

Don't think Flubber would vote Ade like that if they were both scum, and if they're both naked voting then maybe I'm wrong about Ade being scum.

[Alchemist21]

I'm having a bit of trouble with my Droog read. The sheeping he did D1 was more noticeable because he explicitly stated it, but it looks like he does sheep early on in his games. The semantics thing he did today seems off, but his posts the rest of the game gave me gut-town reads. Right now I'm leaning null-town on him.

[Alchemist21]

I know I've been shyt on Day2 so far. But I promise that I'll catch-up as soon as I have time.

When you come back I want to know who you thought had the scummy reactions to your softclaim and why.

[Alchemist21]

@Farside, you can ignore this part:

You said you've played with Flubber before. Have you noticed anything that's different about him this game that would indicate scumminess (aside from his RVS comment, I know you think that was scummy for him).

.

I saw the post you made about him when I checked through Droog's ISO.

[Alchemist21]

then anen lampshades how many players are around

A total number of 5–6 players are here or so. Like wow!

Is that a lynch?

and adrien vaguely comments on the lynch

adrien is actually the scummiest of all these rn

VOTE: adrien

anen is scum too

farside is null leaning scum
i have too many scum reads

i feel pretty town about everyone else i havent called scum
off the topo f my head thats

aninem

amy
alchemist
wgeurts
flubber
ankamius

How is your scumread the first townread off the top of your head?

VOTE: Droog

[Alchemist21]

To me it looks like you forgot you were supposed to be scumreading Anen and that would imply you were never seriously scumreading that slot.

[Alchemist21]

I thought Adrien was scum, and I wanted to keep my vote there. I've already spoken my mind about your Adrien vote, and it's also part of why I'm voting you now.

Tonereading your D1 play gave me the impression you were town, but your D2 play so far has been crap. Your Adrien vote switch made no sense, you tried avoiding explaining yourself about it with some semantics bs, and then you somehow managed to say Anen was a townread off the top of your head after scumreading the slot since D1.

What you're calling a small moment I'm calling a possible slip.

[Alchemist21]

If you want to convince me that you're town, try explaining the Anen read. I never understood the case there and never saw anything scummy from that slot.

[Alchemist21]

Ok, I believe you.

UNVOTE:

[Alchemist21]

Prod acknowledged, will make an actual post later today.. christmas shopping day #1

Guys. Can we all, right here right now, put aside whatever petty disagreements we have and come together to burn this with fire if we don't see some sort of meaningful post by the end of the day?

I'm willing to join this wagon if he doesn't post today.

[Alchemist21]

Dost thou knowth thou called him scum then town then scum again and scum all along.

yes

Woop, fixed my laptops internet.
Now, seriously (half-policy):
VOTE: Venrob
I don't see any posts from him, his whole thing looks staged as well.

UNVOTE: droog
VOTE: wgeurts

This post and his last one are both really bugging me; this one for the timing and fake-looking reasoning, and the last one because... wat. He thinks thither's one scum being voted when thither's 5 wagons of two people and asks someone else to dost VCA? Then votes someone for doing nothing?

I really don't care that his laptop's internet was out and he was phoneposting. He got his internet back with this post and what he decided to dost with it doesn't sit right with me at all.

alchemist thou missed part of thy case
i also had a scumread on ankamius i forgot about
now i remember wherefore

he unvoted me as soon as thy pressure went away
for 'really bugging me'
like he needed a new vote fast after his old one wouldnt dost

I forgot you had a scumread on Ank as well. The Anene read caught my eye because that's where your vote was at the end of D1 and you had them listed with Dino and Fish saying there was scum somewhere in those three. When I saw the slot you had been pushing placed at the top of your townreads list, naturally I suspected something.

Also, why are you speaking in early-modern English?

[Alchemist21]

Venrob hasn't posted like he said he would, so I'll vote him.

VOTE: Venrob

[Alchemist21]

Tell me how what wgeurts has done is worse than what you've done. This is pretty hypocritical of you.

[Alchemist21]

I have arrived.
Anyone want to recap events for me?

(0) Hi there!
(1) Siv was mislynched. He had claimed VT before and also told that he had gone for Doc but it had been taken before him.
(2) The counterwagons were Alchemist and me. My soft-claim was 679.
(3) Davesaz got Nightkilled, flipped Jailkeeper.
(4) AdrienC and Venrob are the main suspects right now. (Maybe Wgeurts too?)
(5) Your slot was scumread by some of us, mostly by me, at the beginning of Day1. The case was dropped, I don't think anyone's scumreading your slot right now.
(6) The players are active in general, or at least, there are some active players all the time. Although, the activity of "particular players" is fluctuating.

Everyone, have I missed something important?

Who are the "particular players" and wy did you choose to put emphasis on that term?

[Alchemist21]

I'm going to go kick myself in the ass now for mispelling the word "why."

[Alchemist21]

Guys a venrob lynch is nice

But an adrian lynch is nicer.

So I'm guessing at least one of these two is your scumbuddy?

[Alchemist21]

Glad to have you back.

I still think Ank is Town based on my prior experience with him.

[Alchemist21]

I'm not sure how I feel about that above post. I know Victor has to catch up, but it looks like instead of focusing on reading and catching up, he put more energy into questioning things that have been answered already. Most, if not all, of the questions he asks can be found by reading through the thread.

[Alchemist21]

If Amy replaced out for the reason she gave, then her replace out isn't alignment indicative.

[Alchemist21]

Flubber's 929 makes me think scum might include Flubber and Venrob.

He supports a Venrob and Adrien wagon while having his vote on me, and seems to try to steer the votes away from Venrob onto Adrien.

[Alchemist21]

As per wgeurts's request:

(Key is '->' is a vote, 'XX' is an unvote)

Spoiler: D1 VCIIoA

Romitelli

->

Aneninen

, 1, RVS

droog

->

Flubber

, 1, RVS

droog

XX

Flubber

, 0

droog

->

Aneninen

, 2, RVS wagon

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 1, same draft number -_-

gangsta_duck/Adrien

->

Romitelli

, 1, RVS

Alchemist

->

Mathdino

, 1, he said he was gonna RVS me last game we were together

davesaz

->

gangsta_duck/Adrien

, 1, RVS

Flubber

->

Alchemist

, 1, top of the draft order and he was genuinely fucking pissed

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 0

Mathdino

->

Flubber

, 1, fakeness

Hayate/Ankamius

->

Flubber

, 2, fakeness

Aneninen

->

Siveure

, 1, RVS

wgeurts

->

Mathdino

, 2, same reason as Alchemist

Venrob

->

Siveure

, 2, RVS

Alchemist

XX

Mathdino

, 1

Alchemist

->

wgeurts

, 1, pressure

farside

->

Alchemist

, 2, various reasons and gut

Mathdino

XX

Flubber

, 1

Mathdino

->

Amy

, 1, various reasons

Siveure

->

Amy

, 2, sheeping Math

Aneninen

XX

Siveure

, 1

Aneninen

->

Amy

, 3, here if you want to know why

droog

->

Amy

, 4, sheeping Math's case

wgeurts

XX

Mathdino

, 0, "oh crap your not scum"

Flubber

XX

Alchemist

, 1

Flubber

->

Amy

, 5, unknown

wgeurts

->

Aneninen

, 2, minicase

Mathdino

XX

Amy

, 4

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 2, metatell

Venrob

XX

Siveure

, 0, unRVSing

Romitelli

XX

Aneninen

, 1, unRVSing

wgeurts

XX

Aneninen

, 0, 'reacting well'

davesaz

XX

Adrien

, 0

davesaz

->

wgeurts

, 3, "very passive"

Siveure

XX

Amy

, 3, "not feeling this wagon anymore"

Siveure

->

wgeurts

, 4, sheeping davesaz

Flubber

XX

Amy

, 2

Flubber

->

wgeurts

, 5, sheeping Math

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 4, "too easy"

wgeurts

->

Siveure

, 1, 249

Alchemist

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Alchemist

->

Flubber

, 2, "This guy has been unproductive for town"

Mathdino

->

Siveure

, 2, wagon hopping

Alchemist

XX

Flubber

, 1, meta

Alchemist

->

Siveure

, 3, wagon hopping

Venrob

->

Flubber

, 2,

droog

XX

Amy

, 1, "i like the way amy handled herself"

droog

->

Aneninen

, 2, sheeping Amy

Ankamius

XX

Flubber

, 1

Ankamius

->

Siveure

, 4, "Siveure trying to discredit Mathdino leaving the wagon is slimy as hell. Nothing about his ISO really gives me any good iggly wigglies either."

davesaz

XX

wgeurts

, 2

davesaz

->

Siveure

, 5, case

Aneninen

XX

Amy

, 0, "What if that was a town-flail from Amy?"

Venrob

XX

Flubber

, 0

Venrob

->

Siveure

, 6, "Well, Siv is another person I am willing to vote, so since this looks like it's happening..."

droog

->

Aneninen

, 2, forgot he already voted him

Siveure

XX

wgeurts

, 1

Siveure

->

Alchemist

, 1, part sheeping part thinking he's scum roleblocker

Venrob

XX

Siveure

, 5, in order to metaread Siv

Venrob

->

Siveure

, 6, meta

wgeurts

XX

Siveure

, 5

wgeurts

->

Mathdino

, 1, misreading

wgeurts

XX

Mathdino

, 0, realisation

wgeurts

->

Siveure

, 6

Siveure

XX

Alchemist

, 0

Siveure

->

Aneninen

, 3, unknown

farside

XX

Aneninen

, 2

farside

->

droog

, 1, case

farside

XX

droog

, 0

farside

->

Flubber

, 1, case

Siveure

XX

Aneninen

, 1

Siveure

->

Alchemist

, 1, minicase

Mathdino

XX

Siveure

, 5, "I'll decide who to vote after I come back but I'm beginning to think I was only hanging onto Siv since he already claimed and I wanted an info lynch."

farside

XX

Flubber

, 0

farside

->

Alchemist

, 2, there are probably reasons somewhere but I'm too lazy to go find them so have her votepost

Mathdino

->

Alchemist

, 3, various reasons and thought Siv was town

Adrien

XX

Romitelli

, 0

Adrien

->

Flubber

, 1, top scumread

Siveure

XX

Alchemist

, 2

Siveure

->

Romitelli

, 1, lurking (?)

Siveure

XX

Romitelli

, 0, getting replaced

Siveure

->

Alchemist

, 3

droog

XX

Aneninen

, 0

droog

->

Mathdino

, 1, catchup/reread

Siveure

XX

Alchemist

, 2, whatever these reasons are

Siveure

->

Aneninen

, 1

Adrien

XX

Flubber

, 0, to ask Math questions

wgeurts

XX

Siveure

, 4, "Doesn't seem so scummy to me anymore, I'm going to meta his more recent games."

Flubber

XX

wgeurts

, 0, "I know it's pre flip associatives but it's bothering me." and thought he was unvoting Siv

Flubber

->

Alchemist

, 3, "Fuck it"

Siveure

XX

Aneninen

, 1

Siveure

->

Alchemist

, 4, "I'd really like to not get lynched."

droog

XX

Mathdino

, 0

droog

->

Aneninen

, 2, not liking Siv/Alch wagons

Siveure

XX

Alchemist

, 3

Siveure

->

Aneninen

, 3, ??

wgeurts

->

Siveure

, 5, "He's buddying, sheeping and getting away with it. I started to null read him but this recent play screams scum to me."

Formerfish

->

Aneninen

, 4, "based off his recap posts because it looks like scum busy work trying to appear active. "

Formerfish

XX

Aneninen

, 3, to not be on a wagon with Venrob

Formerfish

->

Alchemist

, 4

Adrien

->

Alchemist

, 5, "I'm more comfortable with Alchemist then the other two."

Siveure

XX

Aneninen

, 2

Siveure

->

Alchemist

, 6

Siveure

XX

Alchemist

, 5

Siveure

->

Aneninen

, 3

Aneninen

->

Siveure

, 6, presumably to get a lynch?

Formerfish

XX

Alchemist

, 3

Formerfish

->

Siveure

, 7, HAMMERTIME

I don't actually have anything to say on this. If you wanna use it, go ahead.
Will make one for D2 when we near the end.

What do the numbers mean?

[Alchemist21]

@Mathdino, you still haven't explained why you think Ank is scum.

[Alchemist21]

Oh right.

Yeah so
that's pretty much all setup spec and NKA
and it's detrimental to Alchemist to talk about that
so if you'd like I can go through his ISO and try to analyse him without confbias.
Regardless, would want your go-ahead before I go down the aforementioned route.

I'm likely a high-priority target for the scum anyway, so I don't think there's much more you can do to compromise my slot. Go ahead and explain.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist: Okay, see, my case relies on a few assumptions. And honestly, outside of setup, my read on wgeurts is stronger than any read on Ankamius so I could very well be wrong.

My theory is that Hayate, the guy Ankamius replaced, he repeatedly found evidence of jailkeeper being a role almost always picked by scum.

I think Hayate, in an effort to avoid being the obvious scum jailkeeper, decided to go for roleblocker instead and none of the scum went for JK.

I think davesaz was killed to implicate you.

Naturally, this all rests on you not being the doctor, which is why it's possibly compromising.

You have a different version of events than me then. I think Scum were just methodically going for a Doc NK, believing the odds favored Doc would be in 2nd or 3rd draft and protecting the 1st draft.

On rereading, I'm wondering if Siv was trying to WIFOM the scum though. Davesaz said he inferred a different crum from Siv than the Doc pick. Maybe Siv actually took JK to keep it from scum hands, and when he didn't get it, assumed a scum JK was above him in the draft. Instead of claiming he went for JK, which would have looked obviously scummy, he claimed going for Doc.

Doing that does two things. It makes sense for him to cast suspicion in that area because he assumes a scum roleblocker (JK) is in those three players, so Town would have narrowed down suspects to looking in that group for scum. The assumption would be bad on Siv's part, but it could have been what happened.

The second thing it would do would be to throw scum off Doc's trail if it exists. If Scum believed Doc to be in the top 3 somewhere, they would start killing there instead of below Siv in the draft.

There's a lot of speculation on my end about what Siv was trying to accompish, but I do think Davesaz was killed for the reasons I stated.

[Alchemist21]

^ You may have a point. It's still possible that scum just completely missed what the crumb was, because even looking back now I can't see how there was a Doc crumb, or any kind of crumb really. Also, the idea that Davesaz inferred what it was is coming from the fact he flipped JK. Without that, it just looks more like a Townie misinterpreting a crumb.

There are probabky plenty of reasons why Dave was killed. He did have a lot of people Townreading him by the EoD and a high draft order. They may have considered him a larger threat.

If Dave's death had anything to do with trying to implicate me, I'd be looking at Droog given his statement on "wouldn't it be suspicious if the higher draft picks weren't killed?"

[Alchemist21]

Glad to have you back.

I still think Ank is Town based on my prior experience with him.

You had yet to present any reasons why Ank was town, I question your saying 'I still think'.

Can you provide your own read on Ankamius?

It's mainly 1st-hand meta. He did have these kind of short posts as Town in Open 571. There's another ongoing game I played with him, which I'll talk about if and when it ends.

I also actually like Hayate's posts and don't see where they'd come from scum. The idea that scum wouldn't double up their draft picks seems reasonable given that this is a PR heavy game and the past games show this to be true, so I doubt that was scum attempting WIFOM there.

Overall that slot is my second strongest Townread, you being my first.

[Alchemist21]

It's because of how Flubbernugget was supporting the Venrob and Adrien wagons, but simultaneously trying to pull the votes away from it. I'm thinking that Flubber as scum would keep Venrob as a scumread in case Venrob flip scum, but wanted to see if he get get a stronger push onto Adrien. The first reason was because he kept not posting in the thread and I told Formerfish I'd join the wagon if he kept up.

I'll take another look back at Hayate's and Ank's posts to see if I can point out anything specific for you, but I'm still pretty confident in my Ank read.

Remind me why you're voting Wgeurts.

[Alchemist21]

You know I'd have those little red laser beams pointing at me if I said I would do something and then didn't. I'll vote Flubber while Green catches up. I didn't vote Flubber at first because of a recurring problem with my associative reads - I form scumpairs, with 1 being scum and the other actually being town, and I'll end up pushing the town player and subsequently clearing the scum player. I decided to try doing things the other way around this time, as illogical as that sounds.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Flubber

[Alchemist21]

Willing to hear Mathdino out =\= appeasing Mathdino.

You also seem to be implying that Dino is scum without directly stating it. Why?

[Alchemist21]

Ok, so now we both agree that Dino is town. Explain how the way I'm working with him is scummy. I was asked by my strongest townread to switch my vote from the slot he was townreading, so I switched it to my other scumread. Appeasing him wouod have been sheeping onto the wgeurts wagon.

[Alchemist21]

EBWOP: That was directed at Flubber.

[Alchemist21]

This is the most we've gotten from Flubbernugget all game. Curious that this is the argument he chooses to go for in-depth.

[Alchemist21]

I already explained that; I didnt like the wagon anyway and I figured the reaction test would be a damn good way to confirm you as scum or get people off thw wagon.

Also it feels really genuine, along with the fact that you clearly read the thread way after the test. Also the response to me wondering why you replaced into confscum.

I thought of a question: do you think itd be protown to reveal what Ven picked? No ones picked up on that discussion and Im undecided.
Also reads list plox

I'm not sure the discussion on Ven's choice would be worth much atm. We've had one Town assume scum above him because he didn't get his pick, another Town that got the role scum always goes for, and a third softclaiming a scummy role just to keep it out of scum hands.

[Alchemist21]

Victor, have you even looked at D2? At this rate D2 will end before you ever even address its events.

[Alchemist21]

alchemist, do you have any substantial comments on victor's catchup posts?

Nothing new. I still stand by what I said the first time; he's just wastig time with what looks more like scum busy work than town catching up.

VOTE: Victor

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

If VDA does this kind of catchup everytime then I have no reason to keep my vote on him. I'm not voting Ollie. Ank's play looks like his Town play that I'm familiar with.

Here's a list of my reads:

Town:
Mathdino - You will never convince me that this guy is scum.

Ank/Ollie - I'm pretty sure this was his Town play. Open 571 had him making these kind of gut reads as well, and stuff in an ongoing game makes me even more sure about this read.

Farside - I saw her scum game in Micro 415. Her play this game feels different, like she's going more off her gut this game than when she was scum.

Aneninen - If Dino sees something that makes him this adamant about the read I'm taking his word for it.

Formerfish - His push on Venrob was ok, being based on Ven's scumtactic he had seen before. All things present considered, it was probably wrong, but I don't see scum motivation for the push.

GC - His recent play concerning VDA looks Town IMO. This would be stronger if he hadn't ended on a note of "I understand this is your playstyle, and I would like for you to change it. I still think it's scummy despite the meta that was pointed out."

Null:
Droog - His early play caught my attention, so I meta'd him. There was something important I noticed about his scum games, but I'm not going to say it because the game hasn't developed to the point where it would be relevent.

Victor - He's replacing Amy, who I had as null before. His catchup style looked like busy work, but it's been pointed out that this is normal for him. The frustration is null, however, because anyone would be frustrated for being scumread for something they always do.

Wgeurts - He's thrown around the buzzwords a lot, but I haven't seen him push anybody particularly hard, which is about what I'd expect from him as scum. I don't remember much of his content this phase. I think I'll need to look back through his posts.

Scum:

Flubbernugget - The softpush on Venrob and Adrien still bugs me. I thought this made it more likely he was scum with Ven, but it's not out of the question that he was distancing from Adrien. There's also the accusation of appeasement in how I worked with Mathdino.

Adrien - Such little content from him. All I remember from the slot was the totally naked vote on me EoD. He hasn't contributed much to the game, especially this phase.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

[Alchemist21]

@Mathdino, I disagree. I don't think Victor was mudslinging or scumreading half the players. He wasn't putting EVERY post for an individual as Town or Scum, he actually pointed things out he liked and disliked about each of the players. If this was his way of making notes to catchup, it may have been how he tries to weigh the good against the bad to form his reads.

[Alchemist21]

He did say he liked some of your posts. I'll take another look at his notes on Droog, but the only player I remember seeing him not give both positive and negative comments was Farside.

[Alchemist21]

Ok, I noticed he did do it to Droog and Venrob. Also noticed there was only one of your posts he liked and kinda jumped back away from that with the following comment.

However, he had townreads on Farside and Formerfish, and seemed to end with a slight townread on wgeurts. He seems to feel null about other players.

If this is how he normally makes a catchup post, it may be that he pointed out more negative than positive because negative things were more likely to catch his attention. I still don't feel like this was mudslinging on his part.

[Alchemist21]

VDA was at L–1 after my vote and before Alchemist's unvote.
Does that tell us anything? Do VDA's posts during this interval tell us anything?

I don't think anyone even realized he was at L-1. Nobody demanded a claim from the slot.

[Alchemist21]

Flubber and Alchemist need to switch votes

Idk whats goin on there

I trust adrien to make a decision regardless

I think i use regardless more than a valley girl uses like

Like, regardless, totally consider...

I myself am partial to the word "though".

I may switch to Victor or Wgeurts as a compromise if it's necessary, but would much prefer a Flubber or Adrien lynch.

[Alchemist21]

Your last paragraph sounds like you've seen an associative town tell for Victor.

[Alchemist21]

Fine. I'll vote Victor since he's a null read for me.

VOTE: Victor

L-1

[Alchemist21]

GG everyone!

[Alchemist21]

Does anyone onow what happened to Dino lately? He's competely site-flaked.