Mini #1647: Eine Kleine Nacht-Mord, Game Over

[Equinox]

There's only a handful of you who have played with Cogito Ergo Sum, so let's start there:

ChannelDelibird
Equinox
GuyInFreezer
LlamaFluff
Untrod Tripod

Fortunately, there is already a wagon on LlamaFluff! Furthermore, given our history, he's probably rolled scum!

Vote: LlamaFluff

[Equinox]

I played with CES before?

Apparently.

[Equinox]

Can I just check something with you Equinox? That comment you made about LlamaFluff probably rolling scum given your history; was that just an RVS reason for your vote or were you actually making that as a serious argument for him being scum?

It's a serious vote!

[Equinox]

You're saying your vote is a serious one, because you think one of the scum has played with CES before, and out of those people, Llama is the one who was scum the most often, when he played with you?

Essentially, yes. Cogito Ergo Sum is a known quantity, but he hasn't played in a while; I doubt an all-newbie scum team would have gone for him when we have more prolific veterans in this game. To make it extra clear, though, LlamaFluff and I have been opposite alignments in 4 of the 6 games that we've played together.

Where are you going with this?

[Equinox]

I was both making sure you weren't being ironic when you said you were serious, and hoping to get a better idea of what the history you mentioned between the two of you was.

Why did you need to make sure? If I had been joking around, what would that have told you?

I wasn't crazy about it. What exactly did you like?

What did

you

think about LlamaFluff's reaction?

[Equinox]

Unvote

Why were people answering my question to prawneater? :(

This attack on GIF feels like a reach. GIF's response to Equinox was a genuine "I forgot". Reading anything else here and voting on it is bad.

Okay. What do you think of LlamaFluff's case against Untrod Tripod? In fact, what do you think about the rest of the game?

I'm not seeing the argument against LlamaFluff. If anything, I tend to agree with GuyInFreezer; based on the tone of LlamaFluff's posts, he feels like he genuinely believes that Untrod Tripod was doing it as scum. That is more likely to come from a town LlamaFluff than a scum LlamaFluff. There's something else as well that I won't mention, but he's probably not scum here.

I'm also not seeing the argument against Untrod Tripod. He made post 44 after he was pressured by Derangement, who had apparently taken his "lynch before [LlamaFluff] even posts" (post 36) seriously; Untrod Tripod wasn't pawning off responsibility at the time he made the L-1 vote. That L-1 vote is definitely something a "does whatever"-type player would do, especially in a game that has a lot of older scummers and newbies who appear to be careful, deliberate players (thank the Mafia gods).

Your vote was still random. It was just randomly determined from a subset of all living players rather than determined from all living players.

What would you have expected ChannelDelibird to do given the information that he had? At that point, there was literally nothing else to go on except that subset of players.

[Equinox]

are you really going to just ignore the fact that he didn't start pushing or expanding on it until other people expressed interest first, and his arguments echoed what those people were already saying?

Look at the timing. In post 47, LlamaFluff mentioned two suspects: GuyInFreezer and you. However, he voted GuyInFreezer first, which makes me think that GuyInFreezer was his primary target at that point in time. He explained his suspicion of you in response to GuyInFreezer here; he wasn't specific, no, but it's not unreasonable to think that "scummy stuff" referred to the L-1 vote, which was what I had thought it was about when I read it. LlamaFluff switched his vote to you after GuyInFreezer posted his reads in post 79 and then some, and, again, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that he switched because the degrees to which he suspected the two of you changed.

I'll admit that I'm basically making leaps here based on what I think LlamaFluff meant, and it'd be impossible now to ask. There's enough reasonable doubt for me (and then some) to make me consider not lynching LlamaFluff.

[Equinox]

Been a long time since I got a good dose of IIoA.

Vote: onion

[Equinox]

do you think there's something inherently scummy about what he posted, or is this just a straight IIoA=scum vote?

That post talks about things that happened in the thread but very few conclusions about them. onion gave all of 2 reads, both of which are not controversial, while avoiding giving any subjective opinion about LlamaFluff or Untrod Tripod, both of whom received a lot of airtime, or anyone else, really.

[Equinox]

I think GIF is more town than not. I don't know GIF, but I think if I were scum in that spot, I'd look up my games rather than ask if I was in that game. If I was town in that spot I think I'd just ask and not bother looking it up.

[...]

I don't like LF's attack on GIF. I read it as scum under pressure trying to contrive a scummy angle on someone else.

Interesting. Why would you-scum have looked it up rather than asked about it?

How do you feel about LlamaFluff's attack on Untrod Tripod?

I suppose the opinion is 'either llama or tripod are scum but not both.' Llama was on the cogito list, so there's that too. I also stated that i got a townread on Bubs. but that doesn't mean i'll always have that read on him. So i left myself a remeinder about something fishy about him. He's been voting for people who vote for Llama. If llama turns out to be scum, its something worth looking at again in a few days.

That's still not much of an opinion? But okay, let's roll with you wanting to hear from LlamaFluff before passing judgment. What makes you think that he and Untrod Tripod are of different alignments? Why is the Cogito Ergo Sum list still important at this stage of the game?

Also, why would voting for people who voted for LlamaFluff be "fishy"? What do you think of the people who have voiced disagreement with the case against LlamaFluff?

[Equinox]

I ended up spending all day catching up on things that weren't this game, so I'm going to have to catch up here tonight and tomorrow.

Scum-me would be freaked out that I was on a suspect list and I'd want to see what my dynamic was with CES. Town-me wouldn't care as much.

Re: your hypothesized reaction to the list of suspects, that's an interesting way to go about it, but I'm having a little trouble following. When you say that you would want to see the nature of your dynamic with Cogito Ergo Sum, what do you mean?

So yeah, you're gonna have to help me answer your question by pointing out who disagreed with the case. sorry.

I had myself and GuyInFreezer in mind when I asked you that question, more or less, but I was mainly interested in your thought process, of which you have provided plenty.

The same can be said about instantly dropping suspicion of Equinox for writing the Cogito list, especially if you're going to hold onto the list like a guide on where to find scum.

While I would agree with the idea that dropping suspicion of me for just posting that list is a bad one, I really liked that onion had thought about how I presented the list. That seems to me to be considering motivation.

This is too black-and-white imo.

How does this gel with what you said earlier about LlamaFluff playing to his biases and thus more likely to be town than not?

Where did you get this idea from? Why do you not feel the need to justify your votes when you make them? Votes are things that cause people to become out of the game, we need to make sure it's the right people who are becoming out of the game, we achieve this by observing, thinking and sharing our observations and thoughts, and you think it's perfectly fine townie behaviour to cast votes without stating your rationale for them? Since when does the town benefit from you hiding the reasoning behind your actions?

It's sometimes beneficial to not immediately explain votes or to state secondary reasons to get a read off the player being voted or anyone else reacting to it. Your reaction, for instance, is

really blindingly obvious

and the GIFs are hilarious.

It's also possible to read players who do not always explicitly state their reasoning (cf. Cogito Ergo Sum). If that player's "flow," so to speak, makes sense to you and you can see the thought process, then that's a positive indicator. If they consistently do not make sense, then that may be a negative indicator. The obvious disclaimer here is that there are different strokes, etc.

Anyway, that's enough theory for probably the entire game. Strangely enough, this has probably been the most productive in-game theory discussion reads-wise I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

Unvote

I don't like my onion vote anymore, but I need to re-read the thread some. That's probably going to wait until tomorrow, though.

[Equinox]

Sorry, guys. I've been unexpectedly V/LA for this past weekend, but I will catch up on this game tonight.

[Equinox]

In other news: I'm fine with killing one of the onions for sanity's sake.

We should just have a poll on which onion we think is scummier and lynch that one.

Onion Bubs is the scummier of the two imo.

That's not a good reason to lynch someone. Why Onion Bubs?

As it is, I'm struggling with myself, trying to decide how likely scum!Onion would be to purposefully townslip like that.

If it helps, very unlikely. One or two town slips is one thing, but it's very difficult to fake a consistent pattern of earnest, genuine posting that can only come from a player who is searching for scum. I don't know how else to describe it, but onion's posts are filled with this kind of tone.

In other news:

There's a solid block of you who have brought "obvtown" to new levels. Keep on rockin'.

This game has a quirk where there's a whole bunch of players who believe that town should be transparent, and then there's the whole other bunch who don't quite believe that. Derangement said something like this earlier, but one person's "pro-town" is another's "anti-town" and yet another's "scummy"; if you looked at onion using only behavioral tells, for instance, suggesting a chain lynch, even if unidirectional, is scummy, but onion is anything but scummy. This quirk may become an issue later on. Keep this mind when that "later on" happens.

That said, I'm also in a place where I don't have too many non-town reads, which might become hilariously embarrassing if I turn out to be wrong. However, I'm not.

Vote: prawneater

[Equinox]

A few people have argued for townies withholding stuff already but I remain unconvinced that withholding stuff is a good thing to do. Untrod Tripod's vague bullshit about the "long game" is missing the part where he explains how skilled scum would string me along and I checked the other posts in that block, Equinox's little piece underneath his quote of my post doesn't explain how withholding explanations when placing votes helps get a read off of someone, and I already addressed Derangement's post and since nothing was said in response to my response to his point a, I'm guessing he wants to wait until postgame to talk about that.

Spoiler: Not relevant to this game

It's a little difficult to explain how without concrete examples, but what I meant by getting a read by withholding explanations is that people react to naked votes (or other declarations) based on what they

think

is the reason for the vote, rather than what they

know

from what I've told them. This can be telling of the mindset that they're using to approach the game and, logically, their win condition. If I explain the exact reason why publicly, I take away the opportunity to figure out what is going on in other people's minds; the underlying theory is that the people who are approaching the game with the same goal as I am will more likely than not think similarly, after accounting for play styles and such, and scum won't by virtue of having to think differently. Derangement seeing LlamaFluff's point about onion slipping town is a good example.

This is better explained in post-game, since talking about this spoils the signal:noise ratio. The main reason I'm doing this now, in a spoiler, is because I suspect that your and others' suspicions of this method can be disastrous in late game. Transparency is great for reading the people who are being forthcoming with thoughts, but it can be manipulated.

Good luck with your passport.

Cuz Onion is prob town.

I don't have strong scumreads other than LF. Most folk are townreads so I'm willing to POE lynch Onion Bubs or Marquis.

Okay. If you've already eliminated down to LlamaFluff, Marquis, and Onion Bubs, why did you talk about lynching one of onion or Onion Bubs?

this is a reminder to myself to be here tomorrow morning and also tot ry and get emotionally attache dto this game

What the fuck, Marquis? You read the game yesterday and had "thoughts," so where did those thoughts suddenly go now?

[Equinox]

@Equinox:

Read on me?

Neutral, leaning town. The "leaning town" part is because you said that you wouldn't have killed Cogito Ergo Sum because you had looked forward to playing with him, which is something I can see. Otherwise, I don't have much of a read on you.

I've read up to middle of page 15, so I will do that later today after sleep.

[Equinox]

I've been swamped with work, but I'll try to stay on top of things here.

you really need to get over yourself and realize there's more ways to play this game than just your narrow interpretation of what is "pro town"

I actually agree with this.

*looks at watch*

Alright-y then...

What did you think of everything that Marquis (not NJAC) had posted on the things that he had read?

Do quickhammers without declaration of intent, this far from the deadline, really happen outside of newbie games with any frequency? :neutral:
If any of you feels they might do such a thing, what is your reasoning for not declaring intent first?

You have to consider the player list. Most of the players in this game have so far shown themselves to be careful, deliberate, and reasonable players, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that hammers would be treated with the same level of care. In a different game with less careful players (or someone known to quick-hammer), then tactics need to change.

@Equinox, caught up yet? Tell me about your vote on Prawn. what is the most convincing case to you?

My own! Why did you think I voted based on someone else's case?

oh look a reads list! complete lists are srsly no bueno because they provide fuel for scum to needle the little things like 'why am i 6th instead of 7th on the list' which bogs down the scumhunting, which is what they want, which is why we shouldn't do it. but top 2 lists are fine maybe i guess. is it even a list if its so short?

What is the difference between a full reads list and a top 2 list, in your mind, in terms of how much they affect scum decisions? Have you seen scum "needle the little things" about a particular list in the past?

*@Equinox Why are you voting me?

Your "let's lynch one of onion or Onion Bubs" post bothered me, and the explanation didn't make it better.

hi NJAC, we recieved a roleclaim from your former slot owner already, so it would be a good idea to get one from you as well. his roleclaim can be found in post 347. will you roleclaim?

so either he says 'no i won't claim again' which might totally mean something, it might mean that the claim was wrong and marquis was a ridiculous idiot, which is what i suspect. or he might claim VT, which won't do anything, which is what i'm expecting. or he might claim something else entirely, which would be a giant huge scumtell, which is what i hope. but me talking about it has ruined the whole thing probably.

If you were trying to fish for NJAC's reaction, why did you include Marquis's original reaction? Or, hell, since we're all about people being anti-town here, what made this course of action seem pro-town to you?

[Equinox]

Baa baa, etc.

Unvote, Vote: onion

[Equinox]

Why would town care about trying to figure out what their meta was in a past game? The only alignment that should be at all concerned with their meta is scum who want to be playing differently (if they were scum) or that they should try and match past play (if they were town).

Town should just assume their meta would be the same in both games.

Also can we please not vote onion. Remember the whole town tell from him where to be scum he would have had to make up that a friend came in and picked three players (ignoring that this is probably just two scum) and then posted it and not made a "nah I am" comment? That level of faking town slips just seems genuine instead of manufactured.

I disagree with the first part here, and I'm surprised that you haven't done this as town before yourself.

As for the second part, I did consider that. It's probably genuine, too. What did you think of the stunt onion tried to pull on NJAC?

@you can't have your cake and eat it too
i'm more suggesting that he re-affirm or don't re-affirm his claim. Marquis was terrible and lied, and there's no reason to believe the roleclaim meant what we think it meant. see the tripod response above.

[...]

i still don't see the super-scum-tell in my interaction with NJAC, but derangement sees it, and he seems right about everything, so i'll deep think about that too, look at it from an outside perspective, and see if it really is as anti-town as people think. i sure hope it isn't. i don't like acting anti-town.

lurking and lying aren't town-tells. it might prove he's a bad player, and i believe it. i'm willing to give him null-tell for being reliably bad, but that still results in a player we know nothing about because he's never posted, which is what the policy lynch is about.

Here's where I'm confused. You're hung up on Marquis lying, but the only (provable) thing about which he's lied thus far is catching up. What do you think the motivation about lying about catching up "soon" (or whenever) for scum would be? Why would scum be more likely to do it than town?

Furthermore, in a hypothetical scenario, NJAC claimed a power role. What would you have done then?

Equinox-Engaged in a lot of the heavy discussion(in the beginning)
Llamafluff-Same thing but all throughout

I'm kind of surprised you're not suspicious about the "in the beginning" part of it.

*

There's no reason for an onion wagon. The reasons for his read on LlamaFluff he gave after his initial wagon were very likely genuine.

You don't want to read onion's posts, UT? Don't! :] No one is making you.

Personally, I haven't read an onion post since page 7 and I'm getting along just fine!

What do you think of the votes and cases against onion?

Where is NJAC, anyway?

[Equinox]

Y'all need to let onion speak!

[Equinox]

I'm starting to think that onion's obsession with the Right Way to Be Pro-Town is actually a massive town tell... I agree with Untrod Tripod, though, that the most recent set of wall posts are good. I don't think scum-onion would have made the mistake of believing that town power roles wouldn't count towards the number of town players alive simply because that would have been caught pre-game with onion's way of saying everything that is on onion's mind.

We are not lynching me for the same reason we are keeping NJAC alive

Also PJ using a SK? Im pretty sure I remember him not liking third party roles. Nah this is all weak PRs and probably two scum. Im almost surprised town has as much as we do.

You're not making sense in either of these two posts, LlamaFluff. What are you talking about? I'm starting to wonder if prawneater has a point when he says that you're not reading the thread.

I feel like I need to reread LlamaFluff and prawneater again because I've been mostly skimming their back-and-forth so far, but I don't know if I have time to do that before deadline. ChannelDelibird's post 567 is the most convincing for me re: LlamaFluff, though, so my vote might go there. On the other hand, we've met the lynch threshold already, so it's just a matter of ending the Day now or giving it another 2 days. I'd like to give NJAC until the deadline to post something.

[Equinox]

I'm screaming like a maniac about the prawn wagon and CDB's off-the-cuff, vague comment is really what's doing it for you?!

>:(

To be fair, I tend to put a lot of stock on personality-based meta reads because those are more robust than tell-based meta reads, and I was already looking for a comment similar to ChannelDelibird's on any of the veteran players. Even though I've said here that I read LlamaFluff as town, I have only once in 5 years read him as scum, and it was (embarrassingly) incorrect; in all of the games where he was scum, I was snowed. A lot of that is because I

want

LlamaFluff to be town, just like I want ChannelDelibird and Untrod Tripod to be town. My lizard brain can ignore cases, but it's been conditioned to jump when someone says LlamaFluff isn't being the usual LlamaFluff.

[Equinox]

Gunsmith and tracker seems redundant.

You can't use setup speculation to judge LlamaFluff's claim because he is on the Normal Review Group, and, as scum, he would have the know-how and experience to claim exactly what is going to fit. Basically, all we have to judge here is LlamaFluff's reasoning for doing what he had wanted to do.

I disagree with the method, but I can see how he would think it would be a good idea. I'm just mulling over how likely it is that he would use his shot on Night 2 (technically 1, but you get the idea) because I remember him being extremely conservative with vigilante shots, but I don't know if that also holds true, even if it's a lesser extent, for investigative shots.

[Equinox]

There's only one flip. Even assuming he has scum-knowledge, I don't know how you can support this claim that Llama would somehow know what fits when so little of the set up is known.

As scum, he would have X+1 flips of information. That's still substantially more than what we have.

[Equinox]

As it turns out, there was a question asked about town 1-shot trackers in Mafia Discussion here a few years ago... It looks like LlamaFluff responded "don't use the shot on Night 1" to the hypotheticals where 1) VT was lynched on Day 1, 2) PR was lynched on Day 1, and 3) PR (vigilante) claimed but VT was lynched. The flip side of this is that he would only hold back if he knew he was going to survive to do so, so it makes sense here that he would use his shot on Night 1. The other thing is that his reasoning in that thread is pretty similar to what he was saying here about wanting to "clear" NJAC's slot for what a "No Target" result is worth.

I think I'm just really, really scared of mislynching LlamaFluff, and that fear is now doubled because he's a claimed tracker. My instinct here is to let him go, but I also hesitate to lynch NJAC because I agree that Marquis's behavior is less indicative of scum. I'll read the thread over again later today; there's something specific I need to look for that should tell me if LlamaFluff is the way to go because ChannelDelibird's post 602 is unsettling.

[Equinox]

Things should be quiet until LlamaFluff posts. If you talk too much, I will find a grue and then entice it to eat you slowly.

[Equinox]

I heard that grues like onions.

[Equinox]

Derangement is on the list, and i really like the guy, he's fantastically pro-town. If i was scum i would have NK'd him. instead, they NK'd GIF, who was pretty useless. i'm forced to consider that maybe Derangement is scum. it would make me sad though.

I agree with Untrod Tripod that it's more likely that your assumptions were flawed. You're assuming that scum are going to be later on a wagon, and you're also assuming -- with your "scum-o-meter" -- that town are less likely to vote town than scum are. The latter assumption is especially dangerous because, surprise, scummy people get voted. Your conclusion that Derangement might be scum just because Derangement was at or near the top of both lists is also likely to be incorrect, and scum could have just not killed Derangement for other reasons. GuyInFreezer said that he was going to reveal something Today, for instance.

Anyway, I was going to read prawneater (and LlamaFluff and snscompt1) but didn't because I'm a master procrastinator. I'll get to that within the next few days or so, but I'm getting slammed at work for the rest of the week; expect better participation after the weekend!

[Equinox]

Frankly, vote analysis isn't necessarily wrong, and I can see your thought process behind what you're doing. I think I'm just in complete disagreement with how you're doing the analysis, but that's neither here nor there.

As to GuyInFreezer, there's this:

That was an unexpected NK. :o
Can't say I was town-reading GIF, even before his V/LA, so I'm thinking scum took him out because of either his stance on Llama probably not being scum, or due to his Post 632.

Also, I wouldn't write GuyInFreezer off as useless. It's more likely that it's Derangement's hypothesis quoted above, but there's something I want to look at from Day 1 aside from prawneater vs. the world after lolwork.

[Equinox]

@ChannelDelibird, Equinox, snscompt1, Untrod Tripod

I'd really like to know your thoughts on LF's claim.

It's really bothering me. As I mentioned before, LlamaFluff's reasoning matches what he said in Mafia Discussion some years ago, which admittedly only tells me that his thought process has been consistent. Again, the last thing I want to do is mislynch LlamaFluff -- been there, done that -- and, having read this most recent spate of interactions, I'm finally getting the sense that this isn't the usual LlamaFluff. This is what bugs me most because I don't understand what to do with that read, as most of my experience with him has been either misreading him as town or not caring because I was scum.

If I wanted to take the onion route of doing things, lynching LlamaFluff would be an okay thing to do. He's used up his shot, so that's not a reason to keep him around anymore. I'm not writing off his reasons for tracking Untrod Tripod because that is consistent with the LlamaFluff I know, but, now that he tells Derangement in post 729 that everyone besides his town reads are "null at best," it rubs me the wrong way. LlamaFluff should have gotten a read on me by now.

Overall, I'm really hesitant to do anything right now because I don't have as great of a grip on this game as I'd like. Having a handful of solid town reads is one thing, but I can really go back and forth on everyone else and the fact that the most helpful thing I can do to fix that is to read the damned thread again is itself the roadblock to clarifying those reads. Having to write a thesis on a relatively short deadline isn't helping, either.

...that was probably way, way more than what you wanted from me. The tl;dr of it is that it's not the claim with which I take issue right now.

[Equinox]

I'm sorry, again. I've been really swamped with work lately, but I expect to have a large chunk of free time tonight when I get home to do the things that were promised.

[Equinox]

2. Llama is a middle second.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts/case on LlamaFluff.

[Equinox]

sure. i know that outing the power roles is bad, but understanding what sort of roles to expect is useful for judging roleclaims, which are going to happen most scum lynches and some town lynches. 'never lynch claimers' is a bad plan. 'always lynch claimers' would be less bad, but there's probably a middle ground between the two thats even better. something like 'always lynch claimers if their claim is stupid'. determining if the claim is stupid requires knowledge of what roles to expect, so why is talking about that considered suspicious?

To put it very succinctly: Scum want to know the town's power roles and where they are. Naturally, the quickest way is to ask.

The problem was not talking about claims. The problem was how you had asked NJAC to claim. ChannelDelibird's post 457 outlines exactly what was wrong with how you had asked for NJAC's claim. With the way you had asked NJAC, it seemed like you were waiting for him to contradict Marquis's claim of being vanilla with a power role, rather than testing NJAC at all.

[Equinox]

Something just occurred to me. onion, between the last game you played on mafiascum.net and this one, did you play any other Mafia games? If yes and they are online, could you please link them?

[Equinox]

Also, I wouldn't write GuyInFreezer off as useless. It's more likely that it's Derangement's hypothesis quoted above, but there's something I want to look at from Day 1 aside from prawneater vs. the world after lolwork.

All right, so this was done. What I like to do for Nights where there was an unexpected kill is to gather everyone's end-of-Day reads and see if there might be something there that could tell me why this person was killed or why some other person wasn't killed. Turning the chessboard around, so to speak.

Not that there's any special conclusion of which to speak because GuyInFreezer pretty heavily implied he had a power role. That apparently wasn't the case, and I really want to figure out what he meant by "trackers cannot lie" (unless he was trying to get himself killed, in which case, damn you, GuyInFreezer). Sleep-addled brain can't really think too well right now, but that adage seems kind of familiar.

Anyway, some reads on which GuyInFreezer did differ from most others was a conviction that LlamaFluff was town. The only other person who voiced a town read of LlamaFluff was snscompt1, who was under suspicion at the time. It might not mean anything, but I tend to think that depends on the personality of the scum with whom we're dealing. Ideally, I would go through scum games of suspicious people in the game, but that depends on whether or not I have time in the next 2 days to do that.

Anyway, I'm trying to re-read the thread, but I'm only on page 4. I'll probably just vote someone tomorrow because this waffling could go on forever.

[Equinox]

When I see cases written all pretty like Green Crayons has been doing, they're 100% more convincing than they ought to be.

Prawn is scum. NJAC and onion are town. Other scum I would probably say one of: GIF/Derange (who has been bugging me on a gut level). Apart from UT/TTH I have varying level of town reads on rest of game.

Still need to full reread. Still sitting on UT and onion are town, CDB mild town. Rest are null at best.

What changed between these two posts, LlamaFluff?

[Equinox]

@equiniox, no this is my 2nd game of mafia for this iteration. there were 4ish back in 2009 but i was dumb back then. i also played in Spies 7, which was ultra mafia and probably the coolest thing ever. 50ish people, subforums, multiple alignments, games and activities, twas very cool.

What would you say differentiates your play in this game from your play in 2009? Also, could you please link me to the Spies 7 game?

[Equinox]

Thanks for the link, onion. I was hoping I would have time to read it so I could get a sense of how onion plays tone-wise, especially to see if he's as pedantic in his scum game as he has been here, except 1) I literally just got home, can barely think straight, and have to get up early tomorrow morning, and 2) if I am understanding the Spies 7 board correctly, that meta is fairly old and I'm not sure how robust any personality tells I would get are after 2-5 years.

Last night, I did some reading. While I did not get to prawneater, I got a whole lot of LlamaFluff.

Vote: LlamaFluff

LlamaFluff's entry into the game differs significantly from other games I have played with him. In almost every other game, we interact; hell, we have rapport from playing with each other so much. Compare that to this game where he seems more detached, despite attacking GuyInFreezer and Untrod Tripod from the get-go, and he has practically avoided me despite claiming that he's bothered by not having a read of me in post 769. For some additional context, I won against him when I was scum, and, if I remember correctly, he did not read me as scum; he should be

acting

on that paranoia, not sitting there grumbling about 2-3 other people.

I'm not against lynching TellTaleHeart because that is pretty much the extent of my opinion on that slot, but the eleventh hour wagon now as opposed to 13 days ago when LlamaFluff and then onion has been the focus for much of the Day bothers me a great deal. I have town reads on Untrod Tripod and Derangement, so I feel like I shouldn't be thinking this, but I don't want to have the argument of whether or not LlamaFluff is scum pop up

again

Tomorrow and the answer still not clear.

try not to lynch equinox while i'm gone.

?

Anyway, my access tomorrow is sketchy, but I'll try my best given that it's deadline. There aren't questions in this post because loldeadline, but answers would still be good because mind-reading is a thing.

[Equinox]

Keep in mind that my vote makes 4 on LlamaFluff, which is L-1.

[Equinox]

For what its worth I have no idea what game you are talking about. Last one I remember with you is Science and that I think was about a year ago.

Mini 1326: Mansion Mafia

[Equinox]

Not sure why you are discounting the few year old meta from onion when that one is close to three and me playing as an alt but okay. Really I don't remember that one much. Alt personas tend to split a bit in certain areas regardless of anything else at least for me.

It's been 3 years? Could have sworn it was much less.

For onion, I was looking for personality tells, specifically if there were any differences in his tone between his town and scum games. I discounted it because tone can change after a few years, and onion saying that he was a kid when he last played tells me that might be the case.

For you, I am looking for... interaction tells? That's not the greatest term for it, but I would expect that someone who was fooled by another player would become more wary of said player in future games. That doesn't change after a few years because the perceived skill level should remain the same. It could just be that you're more memorable than I am to you because I've been fooled by you more often than the reverse.

You still haven't answered post 835.

On an unrelated note, TellTaleHeart not having any scum meta as a solo player is really quite annoying. Do you have any off-site games, TellTaleHeart? If yes, could you please link me any scum games?

[Equinox]

Simply put - negative track result. I treat that as a pretty decent town tell, especially if there are only two scum like I think.

Ah, sorry for not being clear. You had said in post 587 that you had town reads on everyone apart from those you listed -- so presumably ChannelDelibird, Equinox, Onion Bubs -- but then said in post 729 that everyone apart from those you listed -- so presumably Derangement, Equinox, Onion Bubs/snscompt1 (leaving out prawneater and TellTaleHeart because your opinion of them was obvious) -- were null at best. What led to the listed people to go from "varying levels of town" to "null at best"?

[Equinox]

Well-played, scum. Kudos to Derangement for keeping the obvtown charade for as long as you did. Also, damn you for killing Cogito Ergo Sum. I'd been looking forward to playing with that guy for months.

LlamaFluff, I am really sorry for mislynching you.

Good game, everybody. This was one of the rare games that I found super enjoyable to play and later to watch, despite the activity levels. But then again, thank goodness for a slow game; that doesn't happen anymore.

Thanks for running this game, petroleumjelly!

also for a long time everyone was going on about some early town-tell from me, but for the life of me i don't know what it is. care to enlighten me?

What happened was something of a grey area. As Derangement said, your roommate wouldn't have given you guesses for the scum team if you were scum because you wouldn't have mentioned looking for scum. Your obliviousness to the nature of this tell after LlamaFluff caught it and the sheer genuineness of your reaction solidified my town read of you. A little later in the game, your obsession with the Right Way to Be Pro-Town reeked of a town mindset, even though it was kind of annoying to see sometimes.

[Equinox]

Derangement and Green Crayons, what led you to make the kills that you did?