Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over

[Riabi]

Hi all.

VOTE: Victor

[Riabi]

Okay someone who is not Drezi, Victor, or croboss give me a good town reason to build a half lynch wagon on the first page.

I can see how scum can benefit from such actions

but hard to find a reason for me join in.

How can scum possibly benefit from it? Serious question.

Scum benefit if the wagon is on a townie. Because wagoning/potentially lynching a townie is obviously good for scum.

[Riabi]

You're jumping on the easy read.

Easy reads are often wrong reads.

Yes, but, early on in the game, when we don't have a lot to go on, shouldn't people be pressuring the easy reads to what comes of them?

I don't like this post, I really don't like this post. Someone who has played as many games as you have House should know this, so why try to dissuade Drezi here?

VOTE: House

[Riabi]

I don't ever assume that someone is an idiot. My point is that putting pressure on someone early does not necessarily mean they are scum. But, when we are in the early game and we don't have a lot to go on, our best bet is to pressure anything that looks remotely scummy, and see how everyone reacts to said pressure. What else is there to do at this point in the game?

[Riabi]

I don't get this. Why do you think any of that makes House scum?

To me it feels like House is trying to talk Drezi out of voting for deathfisario. While I don't necessarily buy Drezi's case in 51, I also don't feel like there's any reason to say "nope, you're wrong, and you should change your vote" which is what it feels like House is saying.

[Riabi]

@Riabi

- What's your current read on Defisaro?
What's your current read on Drezi?

Drezi is pretty null right now. I mean, he's only made three posts, and only one post of any substance.
Deathfisario I'd say probably leans town.

[Riabi]

So you disagree with Drezi, but you don't like that House disagrees with him too. Interesting.

Not quite... I disagree with Drezi's read, yes. My issue with House isn't that he disagrees with Drezi. It's the way he's doing it that bothers me. It would have been different if House had said "I think you should vote for xxx, because xxx is more scummy". Or, "I think you're wrong because death has done these townie things." But instead, he just tried to drop what appeared to be some bullshit reasoning to dissuade Drezi.

[Riabi]

Lal's vote in 90 is bad, IMO. Her entire post is just one WIFOM argument after another.

Victor's vote in 96 feels OMGUS to me. I would have liked to see victor actually respond to Cynide's accusation rather than just vote him back.

[Riabi]

Ok, I'm largely going to ignore the entire IC debate, it's been discussed ad nauseum, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing more to say about it. At least right now.

Much more recently, post 232 really bothers me comments like "I'm bored now" don't sit well with me. This game is supposed to be fun, if you're bored, why not replace out? Same thing goes with actually reading the game (and this applies to croboss as well), why bother playing if you aren't going to well... actually play?

My vote stays where it is right now, because I've not seen anything I found necessarily town from House. That said, House does make a good point in 233. FOS on Victor because I agree with House.

I'm curious about what people think of Lalendra's play. Specifically Dooku, House and NJAC. I know she states that it's common for her posts to contain a lot of WIFOM, but, am I the only one who sees this as scummy?

[Riabi]

Let me give you an inside track.

You're wrong about me. I'm not wrong about Victor.

Vote him instead.

I gotta be honest, this doesn't really make me feel any better about you. Now it feels like you're trying to jump up and down, wave your arms around and scream "LOOK! SEE! I'M TOWN!!" If you were confident in your town status, it seems odd that you would be so explicit about it, especially this early.

[Riabi]

I also find it interesting that you seem to have completely ignored the question I asked you, House.

[Riabi]

You read the post, I know this because you commented on it. What I asked was:

I'm curious about what people think of Lalendra's play. Specifically Dooku, House and NJAC. I know she states that it's common for her posts to contain a lot of WIFOM, but, am I the only one who sees this as scummy?

[Riabi]

I can be as scummy as I want to be, actually.

Is this an admission of scumminess?

[Riabi]

I can be as scummy as I want to be, actually.

Is this an admission of scumminess?

This post reads like scum, btw.

If Riabi was town, he'd suspect if I was admitting to being scum. But he knows I'm not scum, so he's asking if I'm admitting to being scummy.

VOTE: Riabi

Wait... what? I *DO* think you're scum, that's why I'm voting you.

To answer Cynide's post, my reasons for the above are that in post 52, I felt like he was trying to talk Drezi out of voting for deathfisario. That feels like buddying.
Now, more recently, 235 is just odd. As I said, it feels like he's trying to convince everyone that he's town, and it seem odd that someone who actually *IS* town would feel the need to do that.
Then his OMGUS vote in 251 sort of seals the deal for me.

[Riabi]

No, I don't feel the need to convince people I'm town. I simply scumhunt, and I'll defend myself if someone calls me out on what they perceive to be scummy behavior, but I'm not going to claim town, not this early. Why should someone need to this early? Most of the people in this game ARE town. And, buddying and agreeing/disagreeing with someone are not the same thing. My problem with House's behavior at that point was that he was calling Drezi out for doing exactly what we're supposed to be doing early in the game, and for seemingly no reason. Just "hey, that's a bad read". But, with as little go on as we had at that point, pressure is important, and reactions to it are what we base reads off of. House's reaction to my pressure has only solidified my read of him.

As for your read on croboss. Yeah, he looks scummy, I'll admit, but I'm not convinced your case against him is any stronger than my case against House is. I can see croboss' behavior as being just a lazy town player.

[Riabi]

3) Learn what OMGUS means. A vote with a case is not OMGUS.

So, then I used it correctly.

@Riabi: Why did you ask about Lalendra, specifically to House, Dooku and me. What's your follow up after our answers?

@Riabi Also, why didn't you answer it before? NJAC has already asked it...

I didn't answer it before because I wanted to wait for everyone to answer. As for why I asked about Lalendra, because her playstyle confuses me, and I wanted a few more opinions on it. As for why I asked the three of you... well, I chose house because I wanted to know if he would say anything useful, and I chose the other two of you mostly at random.

As for my followup, mostly that House's answer is as useless as his scumhunting is in this game.

[Riabi]

I can be as scummy as I want to be, actually.

Is this an admission of scumminess?

What did you mean when you said this? If you were going to be translated for somebody who had never played mafia before, what would you say

Is my meaning so hard to understand? I'm asking him if he's admitting to being scum.

[Riabi]

No you're not. You're asking if I'm admitting to being scummy.

Duh, of course I am. Doesn't make me scum.

No, I was asking you if you were admitting to being scum. But, for the sake of argument, why would someone who is town be scummy? Wouldn't that be playing against one's win condition?

[Riabi]

So you have seen nothing good from House, but he does make good points. Mainly points about people who agree with you about House being scum. Do think about your posts before you write then, or just throw any old thoughts down and hope they don't contradict themselves?

He made one good point, IMO. As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

How about you..... you know what, you don't deserve any sort of witty retort. So how about you just fuck off and die. That work for you?

Damn dude, what the hell is that reaction for? Cynide is right, no one is forcing you to play this game.

[Riabi]

Obviously "lurking" is bad for town, but I don't think that's what he was doing. Going beyond that is kind of a grey area, but I am skeptical of anyone who looked at the information available for him and decided he was definitely lurking.

It would seem intuitive that scum have a higher level of lurking than town, but I have no hard evidence for that. That said, without going into detail for fear of talking about other games, I completely agree with acryon here.
VOTE: cyanide

[Riabi]

Nearly all of his posts were scummy AND then he lurked, and avoided specifically this game. But people don't understand this..

Treading very carefully here. But, to anyone who thinks he specifically avoided this game, I suggest you look very carefully at things like timestamps. I don't think he was avoiding this game at all.

@Dukoo, for the record, I agree with people who claim your 354 is suspect. Whether you meant it that way or not, your post came across as applying at least MOSTLY to Rach.

[Riabi]

@Dukoo, for the record, I agree with people who claim your 354 is suspect. Whether you meant it that way or not, your post came across as applying at least MOSTLY to Rach.

33% Rach 33% deathfisaro 33% croboss

Perhaps that's how you meant it. But my point, which has been made by others, and that appears to be going over your head is that the timing of your post, and the fact that you quoted Rach in your most makes it

seem

like you were talking largely about her. Only you know for sure if that is the truth or not. But, nothing can change how some of the rest of us perceived your post at the time we saw it.

[Riabi]

@Dukoo, for the record, I agree with people who claim your 354 is suspect. Whether you meant it that way or not, your post came across as applying at least MOSTLY to Rach.

33% Rach 33% deathfisaro 33% croboss

Perhaps that's how you meant it. But my point, which has been made by others, and that appears to be going over your head is that the timing of your post, and the fact that you quoted Rach in your most makes it

seem

like you were talking largely about her. Only you know for sure if that is the truth or not. But, nothing can change how

some of the rest of us

perceived your post at the time we saw it.

It is not true that the rest of you perceived like that. For example Drezi and pisskop (and I think SC doesn't have a problem with it either) understood what I meant to say. Post 374 is pretty much describes what I wanted to say - yeah, it looks like Drezi can word it better than me.

Do you even read? I bolded in red above what I said... SOME OF THE REST OF US. Not everyone. Your defensiveness on this issue is really suspect.

[Riabi]

Oh, well, I didn't notice that part, sorry... it is late here, and I am mad because I hate repeating the same things again and again.
EBWOP

I think it's possible that you're mad because someone called you on your scum slip.

[Riabi]

Scumslip? When?

354

[Riabi]

Scumslip? When?

354

What the hell? You want to start this stupid conversation again? What's the matter with you guys? Are you high?

I'm not trying to start a conversation. I made a suggestion as to why you were angry. You continuing to be so defensive like this only makes you look more and more scummy to me.

[Riabi]

VOTE: Dooku

[Riabi]

As you can see there are 8 questions from me only on this page. Riabi ignored all of them.

Hmmm, ok, let's examine.

Scumslip? When?

This was answered in the following post.

What the hell? You want to start this stupid conversation again? What's the matter with you guys? Are you high?

So, the first two were also answered in the following post. The second two (I'm assuming) were rhetorical. If they weren't, then they are ridiculous, and not worthy of answer.

Defensive? Lol, it is getting even more ridiculous.

Is this an actual question?

What? Pointing out the fact that there are no actual reasons is defensive?

Based on context, these appear to be directed at acryon and not myself. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

So, now that you've misrepped me, do you have any more unanswered questions for me?

[Riabi]

I think it's possible that you're mad because someone called you on your scum slip.

Scumslip? When?

354

I mean that's quite a reach really.

This whole case revolves around his intentions behind that post about catch-ups, and how he lost his temper trying to explain it over and over, since everyone seems to think it's super scummy or even a scumslip.

Maybe it's a reach maybe not. When I typed that, I would have maybe bought it was a reach. I mostly said that to see how he'd react. His reaction to it does not help is town-case IMO.

Also what he said about catch up posts is something I lost a game to once, when everyone went crazy and unvoted the wagon I wanted to get lynched, because of the omg so-town catchup posts after a replace on the slot, so yeah I can see town intentions aswell behind that post.

I take no issue with him saying what he said. I agree that catch-up posts can be made town-y looking pretty easily. My issue is with his timing, then moreso with is reaction when pressured about it.

[Riabi]

What is your issue with the timing?

I didn't like that he's warning us about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch up before the post is even there.

What kind of reaction would you expect instead from town!Dooku?

A reasoned argument would have made me more likely to think he's town. Instead, he seems to just be getting angrier and angrier. His reaction felt to me as if when I suggested his post was a scum slip that I was right.

[Riabi]

Motivation. Scum will usually have an agenda with all their posts. Bad!town posts will look scummy but won't have any actual scum motivation behind them.

This is the perfect summary of croboss up to this point IMO.

Which is? Are you saying that croboss' posts had motivation?

[Riabi]

What is your issue with the timing?

I didn't like that he's warning us about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch up before the post is even there.

I don't agree with you. Saying that catch up posts are easier to make look towny after someone made a catch up and people called that towny is scummy, and not what I did.

So, you don't agree with me, you've said this before. What is your point in responding to my answer to someone else's question? This started when I said I agreed with others. You've stated your disagreement with us in the past. Do you have new content?

What kind of reaction would you expect instead from town!Dooku?

A reasoned argument would have made me more likely to think he's town. Instead, he seems to just be getting angrier and angrier. His reaction felt to me as if when I suggested his post was a scum slip that I was right.

Tons of posts have been made by me containing reasoned arguments, before I got angry

Why get angry at all if you aren't feeling threatened by being called out? If you go back through our interactions, you'll see that I never asked you to restate your position. All I did was say "btw, I agree with some of the others about you", then you went off. There was no reason to do that, you could have ignored it and moved on. To me, it seems like you brought out your same old tired arguments against me because you REALLY didn't want me/us to think you were scum. Incidentally, you commenting on my response to Drezi's question above only solidifies my point here.

[Riabi]

Why get angry at all if you aren't feeling threatened by being called out?

Because this game supposed to be entertaining. When people ask you the same stupid questions, even when you answered them, it is not fun anymore.

But, I didn't ASK you a question when this started. All I did was say "hey, I agree." You could have just left it alone and ignored it. In fact, here is my exact quote:

@Dukoo, for the record, I agree with people who claim your 354 is suspect. Whether you meant it that way or not, your post came across as applying at least MOSTLY to Rach.

If you really wanted to stop talking about this, why did you respond to that at all? Why didn't you just leave it alone?

[Riabi]

What I noticed in my previous games, is that if you do not clarify yourself, people will think that you are not able to do it, because you are scum. If you want, I will not react to anything you said about me, unless that is a question.

I never said that's what I want, in fact, what I want is irrelevant. All I'm saying is that when you get angry like this under pressure, it looks scummy. And when you continue to respond to off-handed comments, and you misrep those who are pressuring you, it looks scummy. To be clear, I'm not voting you for saying that Rach's catchup post might look towny. I'm voting you for your reaction to me and others when that issue came up.

[Riabi]

Dooku makes a good point btw which is also why I originally stopped playing on this site. "Be the best you can be by being the least you can be" reigns supreme here and there's a shitfuckton of tolerance for lurkers.

I don't necessarily disagree. But, since lurking is not alignment indicative, a Lynch-All-Lurkers policy gives scum an inherent advantage. So, what do you do about them?

Meh, that wouldn't be fair with the town.
So

@Mod I would like to replace out.

Really? One could argue that it's not really fair to your team if you replace out and make someone have to come in and catch up as well.

[Riabi]

Not to get into a debate about this, but...

Rules:

5)

Bolded Blue

is my color. Do not use it, under penalty of Impersonating The Mod (which is modkillable; don't make me do it).

[Riabi]

Not to get into a debate about this, but...

Rules:

5)

Bolded Blue

is my color. Do not use it, under penalty of Impersonating The Mod (which is modkillable; don't make me do it).

Sorry for the repeat here. Like the one time I DON'T do a preview before a post, it bites me in the ass. :p

[Riabi]

Shit, sorry. Didn't realize it had been that long since I posted.

I gotta say, I'm kinda confused about what appears to be an attempt to get a wagon going on acryon. Can someone maybe help me understand why we would wagon him right now?

[Riabi]

So, not even a claim of r/l interfering? Just an admission that you have basically been avoiding posting?

FoS Riabi

Not avoiding it. Just a matter of I was doing other things, and this site sort of just didn't cross my mind.

[Riabi]

Is there any way I can convince anyone on the dooku wagon to jump on the croboss (metalcyanide) wagon? I'm just not really feeling dooku.

Sure, if you can convince me that that slot is scummier than the Dukoo slot... But so far, it's not even really that close.

[Riabi]

Ok, just in case winter storm Neptune (what a dumb name for a storm) is as bad as folks say it might be, I'll go L/VA for a couple days.

[Riabi]

V/LA I mean.

[Riabi]

That hammer doesn't make sense to me, it seems like bad play if it's scum, or stupid play if town. I'm not sure what to make of it. But for now my vote stays on ika.

[Riabi]

Hey, sorry. Work is crazy right now.

So, in my last post, I meant to vote for ika, I honestly forgot that votes don't carry over from one day to the next, I seem to get lynched or NKd on D1 a lot. FTR, I think that the ika slot was scummy before, and the hammer doesn't give me any less reason to believe that.

As for Nacho's argument, I agree that a counter-wagon and further discussion is best. While it seems apparent to me that ika should die, doing so now isn't prudent. That said I totally disagree here:

"Pay no attention to me guys, I'm just an idiot!"
Drezi, do you truly believe that's a defense scum would come up with?

I know you addressed that question to Drezi, but, yes, I do think scum might do something like that. In fact, House said he HAD done that just three posts prior to the above.

The problem I have is he hasn't come up with anything yet.

I agree with Nacho here again. This is a problem. We're coming up on nearly 40 pages and there isn't anything you can point to as scummy behavior?

As for the NK discussion. I know I'm not super experienced, but I've never seen case where there is a lot of fruitful discussion that comes out of trying to figure out why someone was killed at night. In my experience, it always leads to useless WIFOM.

[Riabi]

I would also vote Nacho.

Why Nacho? I'm not sure if I agree or not.

VOTE: ika

[Riabi]

Why are you voting Ika?

Why wouldn't I be? And why is my reasoning not obvious?

I thought Dooku was scummy. I thought Dooku's replace-out was scummy. I think the D1 hammer was scummy, and I think the D2 hammer is scummy. I've thought that slot was scummy from the get-go, I still do, and to be completely honest, your defense of that slot is confusing to me.

P-edit:

I haven't read a single Dooku post.

This might explain a bit why you are so willing to defend that slot, but, why wouldn't you at least give a game you replace into at least a cursory read?

[Riabi]

I would be pretty inclined to vote Ika right now if I didn't think he had a good possibility of being the vig. I don't really know who in their right mind doesn't shoot Ika after yesterday, meaning the him = vig possibility is more likely than it should be.

While I get this, this leads to the question, why would a vig quick-hammer two people then, knowing that we're in MyLo if he's wrong, still take a shot after?

[Riabi]

Riabi: WHO ARE SCUM WITH IKA?

I can't say for certain, of course, but Nacho and AM are certainly near the top of my list of possible scumbuddies.

[Riabi]

So TTH is trying to bus ika right now when scum needs a single mislynch to win, and had been trying to bus him most of D1. That's quite likely I agree. Nope.

I'm sorry, maybe my brain isn't working today, but I can't parse this post. Can you elaborate please?

[Riabi]

Riabi: WHO ARE SCUM WITH IKA?

I can't say for certain, of course, but Nacho and AM are certainly near the top of my list of possible scumbuddies.

Why?

As I said, your defense of the ika slot is incomprehensible to me. That is enough to put you on my list.

[Riabi]

What about my defense is incomprehensible?

Why it exists. To me, the slot is clearly scummy, and you are defending it vociferously.

[Riabi]

What about my defense is incomprehensible?

Why it exists. To me, the slot is clearly scummy, and you are defending it vociferously.

Also, the fact that you've not bothered to read D1 at this point bothers me. Why wouldn't you at least give it a cursory glance? We had a long night phase.

[Riabi]

Ok, I think all this talk of ika being the vig is going to lose the game for town. So, I'm just going to come out with it... I'm the Vig. I killed pisskop last night, and for that, I'm sorry. I overthought my kill. My thinking was that I've been the most vocal about getting the dukoo/ika slot killed, if I shoot them, it will be easy to figure out it's me. But based on his D2 interactions with ika, I was sure he was scum (so much for being sure). In retrospect, I think him saying that he thought I was scum made me suspect him too much. Then, I never considered that my decision would make ika look like the vig (which I agree now that it does).

I'm sorry for messing that shot up so terribly. I know I really put us in a tight spot. But, I feel like we're going to be in even a tighter slot if people keep thinking that ika is the vig.

[Riabi]

Ok, I think all this talk of ika being the vig is going to lose the game for town. So, I'm just going to come out with it... I'm the Vig. I killed pisskop last night, and for that, I'm sorry. I overthought my kill. My thinking was that I've been the most vocal about getting the dukoo/ika slot killed, if I

lynch

them

(ika)

, it will be easy to figure out it's me. But based on his

(pisskiop's)

D2 interactions with ika, I was sure he was scum (so much for being sure). In retrospect, I think him

(pisskop)

saying that he thought I was scum made me suspect him too much. Then, I never considered that my decision would make ika look like the vig (which I agree now that it does).

I'm sorry for messing that shot up so terribly. I know I really put us in a tight spot. But, I feel like we're going to be in even a tighter slot if people keep thinking that ika is the vig.

EBWOP for clarity.

[Riabi]

(That's not a counterclaim, I was flicking through the game this morning and I thought Riabi was the vig and was going to say something about it.)

I'm curious what led you to belive that?

[Riabi]

House, who's sleeve are you tugging at?

[Riabi]

if I lynch them (ika), it will be easy to figure out it's me.

What do you mean here?

I mean that since I've been the loudest, most consistent voice saying "Lynch the dukoo/ika slot", then it would be easier to point to me as the vig had I used my shot on him.

[Riabi]

I get that, even though I don't agree since both me and Sakura suggested that ika is vigged, so it could have been anyone.

I wondered about the "if I lynch them" part specifically. you corrected it from "shoot"

That was just a typo.

[Riabi]

Because I was in a hurry, and I had meant to change/bold the word "killed" three words prior to lynched. And I messed up and didn't notice it till you pointed it out.

[Riabi]

what do you think about ika being scum?

Waiting for a case that doesn't revolve around him quickhammering.

That's not a scumtell for ika. That's an ikatell.

Well, since ika clearly isn't saying much, we need to look at other players in that slot. A quick iso of you shows that you voted for a lot of people in D1, but only two people managed to get your vote twice... pisskop and Dukoo. It looks like you thought there was a decent chance that Dukoo was scum back in D1, so, has something changed your mind?

[Riabi]

it exists because the reason the wagon formed on him was because he quickhammered and that reason alone was a bad one. what I don't understand is that you seemed to think that it was smart to slow down yesterday and look at a counter wagon: you haven't talked about why quickhammering makes him irrefutably scum, you're not paying attention to multiple people around agreeing with me and expressing the same viewpoint in different ways... it's not because you're scum, it's because you're not thinking critically.

I haven't talked about why quickhammering makes him irrefutably scum because I don't think it does. I think he's scum because of the quickhammers IN ADDITION to Dukoo's D1 play, which, you've not admitted to even reading yet.

[Riabi]

I'm not pinning it on him. I'm saying that I think he was scummy. I'm saying that the ika hammers look scummy, and that as a whole, that slot is really really scummy.

[Riabi]

but the talk me and you are talking about is the quickhammer and the quickhammer alone

not the second one. the first one.

You can talk about whatever you want. My reasons for thinking that slot are scummy are the whole picture. I don't know enough about ika to know if his one quickhammer is scummy in and of itself, but I don't care. My case against that slot is not, in any way, related to one action.

[Riabi]

you said you didn't see how my defense of the slot existed. I defended the slot from the first quickhammer. Thus, you should be able to show how the first quickhammer was irrefutably scum.

I said I didn't understand why it existed. It's not my fault that you haven't bothered to read the whole damn game.

[Riabi]

That has absolutely nothing to do with me reading the game.

Ok, when I said that your defense of that slot made no sense, I said that assuming you had some knowledge of Dukoo's play, so your defense didn't make any sense. Now that I know you haven't read the game, it's gone from not making sense to incredibly lazy, and still just as weak.

[Riabi]

why is everyone still voting ika? we're not lynching him, move your votes. vote TTH. vote ABR, I don't care.

Why wouldn't we lynch him?

Also, why are TTH or ABR more scummy than Lalendra?

[Riabi]

Yeah, you just claimed scum, GL.

I don't follow, how is that a scum claim?

[Riabi]

In D1, I found Drezi to be null, D2, he was probably a town read.. now... I'm finding it hard to not vote for him.

[Riabi]

voting me would still be better than voting fucking ika who you can hardly even name scumpartners for......

I don't understand this. We need to get it right today, so, by saying that voting you is better than ika, are you saying that you are more likely to be scum than he is?

Isn't the whole idea to lynch the person most likely to be scum?

[Riabi]

If everyone here wanted to get ika killed, that means they are likely not scum with him.

I take issue with this logic. If ika/rem/Dukoo are scum, what's to say that the other scum aren't just bussing? I mean, if scum is playing that poorly, is that obviously scum, why wouldn't they bus him?

[Riabi]

Trying to kill one of his potential partners just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand why we don't vote to lynch the most likely scum target, period. We don't know who his potential partners might be, and the idea of his partners bussing him makes a lot of sense to me, considering how anti-town that slot's play has been from the beginning. Why isn't it better to lynch the most likely target, then find more scum from there, once we KNOW something for sure?

[Riabi]

No, House I thought you were baiting, please don't disappoint me.

Yeah, you just claimed scum, GL.

And I HATE him for putting us in this situation, but I'm just trying to make the best of what we've got here.

Am I the only one seeing a lot of AtE here?

Riabi, why is your vote not on Drezi? Are you saving him for the vig tonight?

I've not decided who my vig target will be tonight. Though, tbh, I doubt I will get a chance. I fully expect to be NKd tonight, unless we have a jailkeeper. And, if that happens, it doesn't matter who I shoot because I'll be roleblocked.

As for why I've not voted for drezi yet. Because that would put him at L-2, and essentially at L-1 with ika's love of quickhammering. I can easily see a scenario where if drezi actually town, all it takes is one scum to vote for him, and an ika quickhammer.... game over (because in that case, there's no WAY I don't get NK'd). I'm not that confident in drezi's scumminess yet.

[Riabi]

I reviewed the setup's wiki page and there's no mafia roleblocker in this game.

First post says it's possible we have a JK. JK is a roleblocker.

tbh, I doubt I will get a chance. I fully expect to be NKd tonight, unless we have a jailkeeper.

Ohoho isn't this a scumslip? If you're a vig you can kill each other with scum. Are you setting up for being killed by the real vig? Also we absolutely do not have a jailkeeper, because Sakura wouldn't have died then.

Do we have a vig counterclaim?

So, you are saying that if I shoot someone tonight and also get NK'd then we both die? If so, I assure you this is a noob slip, and not a scum slip. I don't ahve a lot of experience (read none) with vigs in my games, so I didn't know this. But, that changes nothing, as I still haven't made up my mind about who I'd want to shoot.

[Riabi]

But we don't have a Jailkeeper, because he would have saved Sakura.

Possible, but you can't be certain of that.

[Riabi]

And even if they kill you, your kill goes off aswell.

Ok. I didn't realise this. Thanks.

[Riabi]

So I'd much rather go after possible partners.

What is it with this argument? Why do you not lynch the most likely scum target 100% of the time?

[Riabi]

If I say Sakura Metal and pisskop are scum together, go lynch them guys, then Sakura and Metal won't like my plan, even if they found pisskop scummy. If I just said hey look pisskop is scummy, lynch him! They might very well go ahead. From scum's perspective this way it's so much easier to push through a mislynch by singling out someone without calling out anyone else as scum.

So, if I then come and say pisskop, Metal and drezi are scum - Metal and drezi would not like that plan. Where does that get us?

[Riabi]

Sorry, but that plan just doesn't make sense. Especially now that you've spelled it out for them.

[Riabi]

More discussion is good, yes. More opinions are good, yes. To tell people that if they don't have a guess as to the entire scum team they might as well not really ahve a guess at this point is both silly and counter-productive.

[Riabi]

Hmmmm, Drezi, that's some interesting VCA there. I agree that this makes both TTH and Lalendra super suspicious. I'll also point out another pattern I noticed... Nacho is either not voting or voting for a townie on every one of those vote counts. Is he potentially trying to fly under the radar?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra

[Riabi]

I should have said, I voted Lalendra over TTH mostly because her reasoning on voting me is awful, and looking back, most of her reasons to vote are either parrots of someone else, or complete crap.

[Riabi]

Nacho slot (RachMarie) has not played at all D1 so it's natural that there's no votes. He voted NJAC D2 and that's about it.

Fair enough.

[Riabi]

Give up if you must, you may be town but your freakouts aren't going to help us. I don't take kindly to being called stupid over a game, so calm the fk down.

By "us" who exactly are you referring to? Because I'm pretty convinced at this point that you and I are on different teams.

[Riabi]

Ok, I'm an idiot and thought correcting "shoot" to "lynch" was an obvious scum slip

because I was reading quickly and completely missed the fact that he claimed vig.

So side no one has counterclaimed and he's conftown

More evidence of scum in the bolded. If you're town at this point, I would think you would read carefully. Town who are actively trying to figure this game out know that we're in a tight spot, and we need to be really careful about what we do next. My post where I claimed wasn't that long, reading it wasn't a huge arduous task. Not only that, it was the whole point of that particular post, it seems like to me the only way you miss that is if you are just merely glancing at the game in a effort to find some place to quickly throw your vote so you don't seem like you're lurking.

[Riabi]

I had been voting ika, I still would consider it if I thought it would get anywhere. That said, @TTH, when you first voted, you said you'd vote nacho as well, if you had two votes. Is that still the case?

[Riabi]

Okay, so I seem to remember an outed claim or something.

Is that player still alive, and if so where is their claim please?

(I remember ABR)

I claimed vig, is that when you're talking about?

And I guess I derped, because I didn't realize ika was L-1. He may not see this, but, I intend to hammer, ika, do you want to claim first?

[Riabi]

Btw I think Lalendra is the least likely scum out of the four. Not because her play is townie at all, but more like the fact that the other three have been subtly or not so subtly testing the waters to see how well recieved a push on her would be, and the ika wagon afterwards makes more sense that way aswell, since getting 2 of Lalendra Riabi and Nacho to vote must've seem like an easier option, given that Lalendra is tunneling ika, and Riabi voted him aswell before, plus Nacho hasn't been strictly against it either.

While the way House is still playing around randomly doesn't make me feel good about him anymore at all, sure he got by doing that in the earlier days but it'd be time to get serious if it wasn't just a cover for the scummm.

Is this how you really feel? Or is this you trying to keep my from potentially killing your scum buddy Lal? I'll point out that argument for why the others are more scummy than she is could apply to me as well.

[Riabi]

You said:

Btw I think Lalendra is the least likely scum out of the four. Not because her play is townie at all, but more like the fact that

the other three have been subtly or not so subtly testing the waters to see how well recieved a push on her would be.

I was not so subtly testing the waters to see how well received a push on her would be. Does that mean that now I'm scummier than her?

[Riabi]

You're conftown, you can do whatever the hell you want, without appearing scummy at all. But given that the rest has been doing that who I consider scum now, I'm thinking she still has a chance of being town.

I get that, but my point is, if I can do it as a townie, couldn't they as well?

[Riabi]

House are you thinking the scum team is ika, Lel and Drezi? Or someone else?

[Riabi]

Yeah they could, but they are my scumreads for other reasons and that makes my scumread on Lalendra weaker in turn, that's all.

Do you mind outlining some of these other reasons for me? ATM, I'm leaning towards shooting Lal, if that makes you uncomfortable, you might want to convince me otherwise.

[Riabi]

House are you thinking the scum team is ika, Lel and Drezi? Or someone else?

1314

Derp, yeah, I JUST re-read that and was going to retract my question. Sorry.

[Riabi]

I don't even know how they can push me, I'm making my stance clear, write what I'm thinking and detail how it changes, while they just go around pointing at different people and throw around empty rethorical phrases, geez.

I'm not pushing you I'm just asking you why you don't think I should shoot Lalendra.

Riabi, I'd suggest waiting for TTH to chime in on that post before forming a solid opinion.

I'm in no rush. But, I'll ask you, why are you so confident that TTH is town? I get why you trust her opinion if she is town, but, you seem REALLY confident that she's town, why?

[Riabi]

I've seen town TTH and scum TTH.

This is very much town TTH.

When ika flips, you too will see the light.

Honestly, I doubt an ika flip will change much for me. I'm already convinced he's scum. Your argument that a town ika would ahve already been hammered is a good one.

But, I'm still not sure how that means TTH is, in fact, town. Do you mind elaborating about about what her town meta is that you are reading?

[Riabi]

In fact I do mind. I mind quite a lot.

Since you are town, you mind too.

Uhhh, ok. I don't understand, but... ok. How about I take this approach, other than taking your word for it, why should I trust that TTH is town? I don't really have enough reason based soley on her play in this game. I'm not saying she's scum. I'm saying I don't know.

[Riabi]

TTH isn't the topic of discussion for today, let's keep on track.

Except that in 1333 you're asking me to wait for her to weigh in before I make a decision. Her thoughts don't mean much to me at this point unless I'm at least reasonably certain that she's town.

[Riabi]

So? I never contested it.

Being abrasive and demanding isn't alignment indicative.

True, but being vague and unhelpful isn't pro-town.

[Riabi]

Wouldn't it be better to lynch into the ika wagon, and if it dismantles my theory by flipping town, vig ika?

OMG WHY? No, no no no no no no no no no AND no.

There is absolutely zero reason in my mind to lynch anyone other than the mostly likely scum target. If we mis-lynch someone by going for a different wagon, then at best town (I'm not saying us/we, because I'm talking to you Drezi, and this post has made me really think we aren't on the same team) only gets to kill one scum tonight with my shot. . But, if we lynch ika, and I shoot well, then we can kill two scum, and take the town out of MyLo, and maybe win this.

[Riabi]

@Riabi

Drezi is my choice for the vig shot tonight. That will give us some breathing room on figuring out which of Lalendra and Nacho are the remaining scum. And you'll have your concerns about my certainty of TTH put to rest. Either way, she needs to live until tomorrow.

After that, I guarantee you'll never vote for her.

At this point, she's in no danger from me tonight. I'm just trying to figure out how much stock I want to put into her thoughts.

Lynch me today, and kill House, TTH, ABR after I flip town.

And we would lynch you today because?

[Riabi]

Your zero logic declarations seem to have swayed Riabi, and right after he voiced doubt towards me due to simply not thinking from my POV, you jump in to tell him to vig me. I am sure you're scum, sorry.

Where do you get the impression that my view is swayed? Atm, I'm still intending to hammer ika (pending some more time) and then likely vig Lal. That said, I am finding you scummier and scummier, but it's your play that's doing that to me, and not the drivel that House is spouting.

[Riabi]

1364

Uhhh what? That post was directed at your idea of lynching anyone BUT ika. Lynching ika has been my stance since like page 4 or 5. How am I being swayed again?

Your zero logic declarations seem to have swayed Riabi, and right after he voiced doubt towards me due to simply not thinking from my POV, you jump in to tell him to vig me. I am sure you're scum, sorry.

Where do you get the impression that my view is swayed? Atm, I'm still intending to hammer ika (pending some more time) and then likely vig Lal. That said, I am finding you scummier and scummier, but it's your play that's doing that to me, and not the drivel that House is spouting.

This drivel is pulling the scum out, so you might reconsider your shitty attitude towards me.

My attitude toward you would be less shitty if your play was more pro-town. The way I see it, you might be pissing people off to expose scum, or you might be pushing someone you KNOW is town to try to cast doubt on my reads and try to confuse me. If your play were overall more pro-town, I'd think it was the former, but, since it's not, I have no idea how to read you.

[Riabi]

That's why I find it strange that Riabi reads that as scummy.

I'm sorry, I missed what post this is in reference to. What are you thinking I find scummy?

[Riabi]

@Riabi ... And you'll have your concerns about my certainty of TTH put to rest. Either way, she needs to live until tomorrow.
After that, I guarantee you'll never vote for her.

This drivel is pulling the scum out, so you might reconsider your shitty attitude towards me.

That'll clear up soon enough.

Quotes like this have me thinking that maybe I'm missing something I shouldn't be. Anyone else have any thoughts about that?

TTH ABR, and Lalendra, and my townread on Nacho was based on him not hammering, but it looks like he wasn't here at all, so I'd need to rethink that especially if he happened to do it suddenly now.

I just can't get behind any possible scum teams that don't include ika. Why would a town ika not say a SINGLE WORD in his own defense? He's clearly lurking, he's had pressure on him the whole game, I just don't see how he's not on your list. I know you've tried to give reasons, but most of them just don't make sense to me.

[Riabi]

Great, you're free to accompany my lone vote on ABR.

Again, why would we want to lynch someone who is less likely to be scum than ika?

[Riabi]

In my opinion he's not. You can just vig ika.

But, your last scum team suggestion didn't even include ika, so, why should I vig him in your mind?

[Riabi]

My talk about TTH was trying to WIFOM scum into schooting her tonight so I could reveal tomorrow after getting her reads (which is why I wanted Riabi to hold off).

I have a lot of respect for TTH's town game, and this game feels exactly like Hope +1. I'm happy as hell that I'm on this side of the fence in this one.

I'll say this, you had me going back looking for breadcrumbs. Now I know why I didn't see any

[Riabi]

After ika flips scum, I suggest an ABR vig kill.

Why ABR over Lal?

[Riabi]

Ok, I've seen enough. I'm not sure yet who I'm going to shoot tonight, I need some time to decide on that. But I'm pretty sure I've heard from all the folks I'm interested in hearing from on that subject.

I know with ABR's vote this isn't a hammer but:

VOTE: ika

I'm comfortable with someone else wanting to hammer.

[Riabi]

I rather lynch clever scum pushing for my death to win than lurker scum.

I'd rather lynch the guy we should have lynched two days ago than take a chance that you're wrong. We can figure the rest out after the NKs.

[Riabi]

Don't vig me unless you want to lose, because I'm town.

Your play and your voting suggest otherwise.

Say what you want Lalendra, I still think you're scum.

Last minute desperation bus? Probably.

[Riabi]

Yeah, we can finish this up quick, methinks.

VOTE: lalendra

[Riabi]

Ok, since this game seems to be stalling.... Lalendra, why do you think that House was killed? I mean, I know he was conftown, and that makes one a NK target, but, why him over me, do you think?

[Riabi]

I am inclined to agree Nacho, largely because of ABR constantly soft-baiting Nacho for his opinion. Thoughts?

I'm not sure how ABR's actions make nacho scummy. That said, Drezi, I'm very interested to hear your thoughts.

[Riabi]

When I was in my first game as scum, and I wasn't talking as much as my scumbuddies wanted me to, they did this sort of soft-pushing to get me to talk. Also, when confscum says they "guarantee" someone is town, it makes me raise an eyebrow.

You're never going to convince me that Nacho is scum by this associative argument. If you think he's scum, give me an argument based on HIS actions, or the actions of the slot.

ABR was the most vocal about me being scum, and trying to lynch me. Given that he flipped scum, I don't see how anyone could believe that I am scum; why bus one of your scumbuddies when there is no pressure to do so? He was just trying to start a wagon on me because he was scum and I am town. Period.

ABR's push on you is neutral in my mind. It's entirely possible that he could be bussing you. Why bus when there is no pressure to? To look town.

[Riabi]

Riabi doesn't seem convinced by my argument...

A fair if somewhat mild assessment. Care to actually make an argument about nacho?

I also have quote a few things to say before any of that happens.

I'm looking forward to hearing these.

[Riabi]

Also nacho, if you have anything to say in your defense, now would be the time. Not participating at this crucial stage is scummy at worst and anti-town at best. Making a "I have a lot to say" post, and then not following it up with anything for a full day, is just active lurking.

I'm in North Carolina right now, on vacation. I likely won't be posting until tomorrow/the day after tomorrow. This has no reflection on my alignment, only a reflection of how much time I have available at this moment.

I can wait, if for no other reason than NC is a fine state.

[Riabi]

Hmm.

What does this mean?

[Riabi]

Hmmmm. I still don't like this associative argument. I still would like to see come evidence of scummy behavior on Nacho's part. I'll admit, the fact that there are now two of you making similar arguments does help the cause, since there's no way you're both scum. But, I'm still not comfortable yet voting Nacho with out some direct evidence.

[Riabi]

why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.

What do you think about the case against him?

[Riabi]

I want to let TTH and Riabi read Nacho's replies.

I've read them. I'm honestly not sure what to make of them. That said, atm, I see no need to change my vote either.

[Riabi]

If you are last scum, I should worry about stuff and try and do things.
If you aren't last scum then I gotta do things

This is right after my post... was this directed at me?

[Riabi]

Obviously if I hammer nacho and he flips town,

I will be shot tonight

, and

town will lose

.

??

Yep, I had the same thought. Assuming nacho would flip town, and assuming Lal gets shot tonight, then we'd be in 3 player LyLo. But there are a number of problems with this...

1.) The chances of Nacho and Lal both being town at this point, are, in my mind, slim.
2.) Assuming we mis-lynch today, wouldn't *I* be a far more likely NK than Lal? Being conftown and all?

Sigh... I need to re-read some things....

[Riabi]

Ok, here's something I had forgotten about, and I'd like to hear from Nacho on. Nacho, when you subbed in, you made this ridiculous case defending ika because all he'd done was quickhammer. When I and others told you that that wasn't the only reason and that his slot had been scummy on D1, you refused to go back and read D1. I get coming in and not wanting to necessarily re-read the entire game if you don't have to, but, why would someone who's honestly trying to figure the game out not go back and read at least the portion of the game that others are telling them is important?

[Riabi]

I didn't really have time to read through the game when I was initially asked to, and then I was asked to reread the game to see Dooku scuminess when I was already pretty set on lynching ika so still didn't really see a reason to. Lately, I've read bits and pieces of the game without doing a formal reread: I don't plan on doing a formal reread and this isn't an uncommon habit sitewide.

Like I said, I'm ok with not normally rereading the game, but, when people are telling you "your defence is crap, and you'd see why if you read D1." It seems to me that someone who was town and wanted to actually figure the game out would say. "Hmm, maybe they are right, I should see if that slot really is scummy."

So, since your defense when you subbed in was crap, and since your defense now is crap. Do you have anything left to say for yourself before I drop the hammer?

[Riabi]

For everyone else. I realize that I don't really need to wait for an answer from nacho, but, I'm looking for one because I'm not 100% convinced that he's scum yet (but far more convinced than I was). So, I'm basically giving him a chance to talk me out of it.

and, in that same spirit....

UNVOTE:

[Riabi]

Except that as it's been discussed, I don't have another shot. I was a 2-shot vig. I mean, it would have been monumentally stupid to NK House if I had had another shot... hmmm.. maybe you are town afterall.

[Riabi]

I didn't really have time to read through the game when I was initially asked to, and then I was asked to reread the game to see Dooku scuminess when I was already pretty set on lynching ika so still didn't really see a reason to. Lately, I've read bits and pieces of the game without doing a formal reread: I don't plan on doing a formal reread and this isn't an uncommon habit sitewide.

Like I said, I'm ok with not normally rereading the game, but, when people are telling you "your defence is crap, and you'd see why if you read D1." It seems to me that someone who was town and wanted to actually figure the game out would say. "Hmm, maybe they are right, I should see if that slot really is scummy."

So, since your defense when you subbed in was crap, and since your defense now is crap. Do you have anything left to say for yourself before I drop the hammer?

The only real problem with this is that it never happened. When I defended Ika, no one said "your defense is horseshit, go read Day 1". Instead, two people said they thought Dooku was town and you thought Dooku was scum. Seeing that people had opinions wasn't particularly surprising to me and didn't make me go "welp, gotta read now!".

Wrong. *I* told you it was horseshit. The exact words I used were:

Riabi: WHO ARE SCUM WITH IKA?

I can't say for certain, of course, but Nacho and AM are certainly near the top of my list of possible scumbuddies.

Why?

As I said, your defense of the ika slot is incomprehensible to me. That is enough to put you on my list.

I'm ready, lets end this...

VOTE: Nacho

[Riabi]

And now that you've hammered town, who are you going to lynch tomorrow?

Well, as the only conf-town person left, if you DO flip green (and you likely will at this point, because why bother not giving in otherwise?), I dont expect to be in the game tomorrow. That said, I would probably point to TTH as the final scum. I agree with you that Lalendra probably town-slipped earlier.

[Riabi]

gg all.

[Riabi]

It was looking pretty dicey there for a while.

[Riabi]

And, sorry about the D2 shot pisskop.

[Riabi]

But IKA may have been a better shot

In hindsight... clearly so.

[Riabi]

Gj town.
I am sorry that I replaced out, but I knew that if I stay I will make our situation even worse.

Next time, don't let someone push you around so hard. Tell them to shut up, and move on.