Open 591: C9++, The Lunatic Ayslum (Game Over: Town Win!)

[Otolia]

/confirmation

VOTE: mnemonicdevice because he replaced in a game in my spot.

I've played another C9++ a long time ago when it was still a nightstart. The game itself was so shitty, it became good again. Town won accidentally. It's only 10 short pages so you can read it fast. Please let this game be better.

[Otolia]

I repeat myself eh :

VOTE: mnemonicdevice because he replaced in a game in my spot.

I've played another C9++ a long time ago when it was still a nightstart. The game itself was so shitty, it became good again. Town won accidentally. It's only 10 short pages so you can read it fast. Please let this game be better.

Also I'm in BEAUTIFUL Europe, land of the only handsome men (like me) on Earth.

[Otolia]

Also I'm in BEAUTIFUL Europe, land of the only handsome men (like me) on Earth.

Europe is not a country, nor a land. Unless your german, then it's all part of Germany. I'll stay silent now.

Hey if I wanted the opinion of a weed-smoking bicycle rider, I would have asked you ! Still do you speak Flemish ?

[Otolia]

I just saw midget as town, one shot vig a person who got a guilty on scum....because he wasnt reading the thread.

if all things constant and someone has to die today, it should be him.

WHAT ?! I'm not following you.

[Otolia]

@DarkLightA : That's a pretty weak vote. He was informed but didn't read his PM that carefully. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch !

[Otolia]

@DarkLightA : That's a pretty weak vote. He was informed but didn't read his PM that carefully. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch !

Why because that's exactly what I'm doing most of the time ?

[Otolia]

Do you think he can correctly predict my actions?

So I've said something about me that I've done in the past, and now it has become me saying I can predict your actions.

The world doesn't revolve around you. I know you're British and you tend to think that way but still ... In any case, welcome to the game EuroBro

[Otolia]

He was informed but didn't read his PM that carefully.

I tried to put myself in your shoes. But you're right, I thought something and said another.

[Otolia]

People who aren't voting right now, why ?

[Otolia]

@Reubus : Are you an alt ? If not, would you consider yourself newbie ? What are your experiences ?

[Otolia]

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

[Otolia]

Otolia, why haven't you come up with anything productive so far? You've asked questions and made empty statements.

(...)one could argue (...) I've got nothing better to do with my vote (...)

Why the distancing from the vote? Do you not stand by your actions?

Voting is the commitment. Besides what do you consider productive ? Do you consider yourself productive ?

[Otolia]

All I'm saying is that that vote looked like you were setting yourself up extremely well to jump off that vote with no further consequences at a later point. I don't like that.

I consider myself productive.

So I'm setting myself up to do the same thing that you just done and that Collatz is calling you on ? Aren't you a bit hypocritical ? I don't really like how you consider yourself above all reproach especially when you're pulling this kind of shit off. Cognitive dissonance at its best.

[Otolia]

All I'm saying is that that vote looked like you were setting yourself up extremely well to jump off that vote with no further consequences at a later point. I don't like that.

I consider myself productive.

So I'm setting myself up to do the same thing that you just done and that Collatz is calling you on ? Aren't you a bit hypocritical ? I don't really like how you consider yourself above all reproach especially when you're pulling this kind of shit off. Cognitive dissonance at its best.

Listen: I'm not calling you out on the voting or on wanting to gather information, that's more than fine, but I'm just questioning the way you're doing it. You're misrepresenting what I'm arguing.

You're deflecting and I don't see the difference between what I've done and what you've done. So in essence, either you needlessly nitpicking to pass as town or you're just pointing fingers at everything that moves in the hope that you can pounce on it.

I haven't played Mafia on MS for a while, I don't remember the last time I played Mafia here but definitely before the Mayan Apocalypse. Maybe War in Heaven III.

[Otolia]

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

[Otolia]

Hey RedCoyote, it's been a while. Hopefully you don't remember the last time we played together. I'm still ashamed 4 years after

I do consider myself European more than French, but right now I'm in Paris.

[Otolia]

How odd, haha. I guess it's more a Euro thing.

I do seem to recall you, but I actually don't remember the game we were in. I could probably go find it... I used to be better about remembering everyone, but the years keep adding up!

I was force-replaced out of a game where I insulted you (and Texans in general). So yeah ...

[Otolia]

Spoiler: Otolia vs. DarkLightA 1

You're deflecting

What am I deflecting? Ask me straight-up what I haven't answered well enough and I'll be happy to share.

Well that :

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Edit : Which you answered when I was writing. But it brings me to my next point.

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Nope. It's to do with a shift in my reads.

That's fine and all but what about this :

@Collatz, you make some fair points. Re: gathering information I see you mentioned it in #105 too. I missed that. I don't see how you talk about information gathering in #81 though.

This is what I meant by my gathering information. It's between the lines, but pretty clear:

but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

I see what you're saying about the town vs scum divide on suspicious behavior, but you're wrong (you'll usually be wrong anyway). But that's okay, it's a learning process. You'll find that scum in almost all cases have more to lose from a lynch than town, and thus will be more hesitant to stand out.

I don't like the new "information gathering" explanation you've come up with, especially seeing as it was only something that came out after you were put under considerable pressure. It seems like this is something you've made up retroactively rather than the initial intentions in your actions. That's okay, but I'd like you to be honest if that's the case, because it's not looking too good the way you're portraying it now.

Your posts are increasing giving off a feeling of willingness to cooperate though, which I find pleasing.

Would it be fair if I accused you of trying to escape the responsibility of the unvote by setting yourself up a few post before ?

---

Spoiler: Otolia versus DarkLightA

and I don't see the difference between what I've done and what you've done.

Nowhere in my posts did I say: Oh yeah, I mean, uhh... I'm just voting because there's not really a better thing to do. So I guess one could argue that Collatz is acting suspiciously.

That's an imitation of what you did in #141. If you wanted to gather information from a vote you should be direct and to-the-point. The way you phrased that post in particular makes it seem like you're trying to avoid being held responsible for the vote.

I'm trying to avoid being held responsible by actively engaging with you ? W/E

So in essence, either you needlessly nitpicking to pass as town or you're just pointing fingers at everything that moves in the hope that you can pounce on it.

This is interesting: do you think I am needlessly nitpicky in my play? Because I think I'm making perfectly valid points.
In some ways the latter statement is true—I do try to provoke responses—but that's a legitimate strategy. You're trying to paint me as scum. Why?

So what am I doing then ? I voted you, the same way you voted Collatz, and I'm trying to provoke answers from you (just like you did with him and are doing with me). Why do you hold me to a different standard than yourself ? Why do you base so much of your argumentation on ONE post where I voted, disregarding what I've done afterwards. Sure my vote wasn't the best vote I've ever done, fine. You extorted that much out of me. But the game has to start somewhere. And I believe that I'm doing the same thing in essence that you're doing.

Conclusion : UNVOTE: I think I've made my point. You're doing the same thing that I am. That's my peace offering, don't waste it.

[Otolia]

@DarkLightA

: How you fail to see my PoV is beyond me. We are doing the exact same thing and yet you refuse to budge one inch from your position. I've tried to meet you halfway because I believed that since we were essentially doing the same thing, we must be both town and you unvoted so I just thought we could reach an understanding. But no. By the way, you said "Ask me straight-up what I haven't answered well enough and I'll be happy to share." and I answer "Well that" + a quote of a question, it OBVIOUSLY MEANS THAT IT'S SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED BUT THEN YOU DID WHILE I WAS WRITING MY POST.

---

Otoila are you Townreading or Scumreading DLA right now?

I wish I knew myself. I was townreading him in my last post because I thought that he had the same reasoning but now that he is voting me again, it's like the case of Collatz suddenly makes sense. >< For now, he is back to null read like the rest.

---

OTOLIA, apparently you missed this question (?)

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

what post do you feel like Dark is "grasping" at straws?

#70 and #108. Especially this quote :

I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell.

It's like he was waiting for someone to call him on it so he could pounce and start his case.

---

Otolia are you purposefully ignoring this? Answer or my vote won't move on policy.

I've done so above.

[Otolia]

@RC

: Some reads/analysis of yourselves are not up to par with the rest.

Do you think it's the case ?

I agree with your point on Reubus though, which could extend to everyone not voting/being still in RVS as I mentioned in #118 which was 2 days ago.

[Otolia]

I don't understand your question. My analysis of myself? I am town.

"[...] analysis of

yours

[...]" But you could infer that much. You could have shown a little more willingness to understand me there.

[Otolia]

I'm not trying to be a dick. Even that allegation I don't really understand. I've try to be very forthright about all my opinions, especially when I am town. Could you be more specific? Do you just want me to do a summary for you?

At the moment, I think Marcrell needs a ton more attention paid to him.
As to you and DLA, I don't find your arguments compelling and have a comfortable townread on DLA at the moment.
As to Collatz, I suspect he's town although I disagree with the direction he's going with his reads.
As to ckd and BBT, I liked their contributions so far and am anxious to hear more from them. I'd give ckd a thumbs up for town, BBT is way too early to call.
As to Reubus, I think he's misleading and potentially a good candidate for lynching today.

Not a lot to say about randomidget, mnemonic, Llama and Alchemist. Alchemist, random and mnemonic need to contribute more. Llama just joined us.

I've addressed all of these things in one way or another in my posts, so I dispute the idea that some of my analysis is not "up to par with the rest". What specifically am I glossing over?

You aren't glossing over anything in particular. What I meant precisely is : when you answer things in such a format (list of quote), not everything you say has the same value nor the same reach. I can't say I like the format you use since there isn't a lot of formatting and it's hard to read the intent of your post. It's more a question of playstyle than content though.

[Otolia]

Hey guys, I'll be posting an update later in the day. Prod dodging right now obviously.

[Otolia]

Spoiler: On randommidget and reactions

He looks very attentist, particularly in this post :

@redcoyote im always like this day 1. Flips are like coffee for me. I need them to get going.
So are we doing the tier thing?

But then mnemonicdevice is doing the same below and gets a pass ...

RM can you start doing something so you don't get lynched please.

I don't like BBT's attack here. Sure RM isn't participating a lot but his argument denotes a low level of involvement in the lynch. I'm a massive proponent of Policy Lynch but when I decided on a PL, I don't stop unless there is a town consensus. PL are strong because there is a cohesion around them. Menacing someone of a PL without trying to federate is either bad PL implementation or a scumtell.

And im concerned that you say there is at least one scum in RM and RS and then passively defend RM a few posts later.

I don't see a case that makes sense on Otolia. I do see all of my scum reads attacking them though.

There are far scummier people in this game right now than Random. I feel that should be obvious.

Lynching Random achieves nothing. As someone just stated, it's a very easy wagon for scum to jump on and a low information lynch.

Can you decide on which side of the fence you're on ? Oh right, you're on the other wagon. Alchemist said the same thing as him btw.

People, there is no easy lynch for scum. As a scum, you can't help but analyze the potentiality of every wagon and the likelihood you'll get caught for saying this and that. The only people who can lynch without fear are townies.

I'm going to say that Randommidget should probably be lynched at some point before it gets lylo or something because then he's a giant liability

. However, these things aren't often scum tells. Being barely off from flaking and completely useless isn't a scum tell, and so if you have any scum reads or something I'd suggest trying to vote them instead. If not, then the day can fall to this lynch, but it's really more of a getting it out of the way thing.

HELL FUCKING NO ! HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING DEFINETELY SCUMMY LIKE LYING ABOUT HIS ROLE OR HIS NIGHT ACTIONS. NO !

Conclusion (Partial) : Linear reading didn't bring much. I probably need to read Llamafluff case before I make a decision. In any case, it brought forth a lot of various reactions and some are very questionable.

---

Spoiler: On everyone's town read

It appears to me that a lot of people are putting the same people as town : DarkLightA, RedCoyote. Now let's put aside their contribution for a moment and ask ourselves how the hell is everyone reading them town ? I am put off by this. What I mean is twofold:

• Some of the people reading them as town are doing it for love points. Being likeable is always useful to scum.
  
• This is applicable mainly to DLA but to some extent to BBT and (maybe someone else but I can't find it anymore). They have the tendency to distribute brownie points for what they describe as good posts. It's still early in the game to see in this approach as something else than encouragement for town activities but we should be alert if those become more opportunistic.

I know that's far-fetched right now but it's something town hasn't talked about so far and I wanted to bring it forth.

EDIT :

We may have masons in the setup, so my arguments have less impact now.

---

Spoiler: Collatz's inactivity

Mostly just a prod dodge.

UNVOTE: DarkLightA

I liked the way he questioned my actions and the way he has responed to the questions he has been asked by others. I'll post more later. Right now I'm going through everyone's ISO.

Everybody is keen to point out randommidget or mnemonicdevice lazyness/inactivity but Collatz gets a pass ? Look, I prod-dodged too so I'm not in the best position to talk but since Collatz was attacked by DLA, the wagon has died, everyone is moving on forgetting him and DLA has MASSIVE towncred. Everybody is the town is looking so freaking positive. It weirds me out.

---

This post I don't understand. What do you mean "not everything has the same value or the same reach?"

I can't find the right word unfortunately. RC's post was mish-mash of various quotes without organization. Some are good and bring things to town others less so. I find it hard to read. Thus the question. Probably not my best question ever ^^ I can

The Otolia wagon was Mnem, Lucky, Darklight, Random and myself. I'm going to assume that the null/scum read is me. I'm very interested to see why you're scum-reading me.

Mnemonic was still in RVS.

PS : I haven't paid enough attention to Reubus, I have some comments on him and its reaction which should arrive tomorrow.

[Otolia]

I don't like how RM has been sheep voting and using other peoples reasons as an excuse to vote without using his own reasoning. I'm still really busy but I'll try to post more later.

Here, let me give you an incentive to post more.

VOTE: Collatz

[Otolia]

I don't like how RM has been sheep voting and using other peoples reasons as an excuse to vote without using his own reasoning. I'm still really busy but I'll try to post more later.

Here, let me give you an incentive to post more.

VOTE: Collatz

Yeah, not a fan of Collatz play right now either.

309 - Really Otolia, this is the best you can do with your vote? This is barely a level above RVS voting.

That's the 2nd time in a few days where you cannot keep an opinion for more than a few hours. What's up with that BBT ? I probably won't let my vote stay on Collatz though. I've read Llama's case on RM but I've yet to examine RS closely. Until I have done so, my vote may as well be a reminder to Collatz that he commited to post more.

[Otolia]

Yes. Its to the point where I have used it enough and its known enough that I would have to bring it up even as scum.

Can you provide a game where such a policy has been used ?

[Otolia]

I don't feel compelled to answer every and any rhetorical questions.

[Otolia]

This is hilarious.

[Otolia]

Spoiler: Randommight

So I've done my school work on RM. Great news isn't it ?

Posts #0-4 are early game fluff.
Post #5 is free-ride on DLA's coattail.
Post #6 is fluff.
Post #7 : "Marcrell is town"
Post #8-9 : Voting me and explaining why Marcrell is town.
Post #10 : Playstyle excuses and asking about the claiming strat.
Post #11 : Various, including saying that comprise is scummy and playstyle excuses.
Post #12 : Explanation of delay.
Post #13 : Most content so far. (Yes that's also sarcasm)

I was reacting to CKD so much because I was annoyed at him being a dick. There was no point trying to slip onto a wagon as scum at that point, he wasn't going to be anywhere near lynched. I was trying to get out of RVS as quickly as possible.

Now that's interesting. He assumes scum only get on wagon to get people lynched and he is confessing his desires to get out of RVS as soon as possible.
2 things:

• RVS ends when someone has cast a serious vote. People sometimes continues to joke around in order to have better reads but as town, there is no motivation to immediately get out of RVS (see the numerous people lurking around who probably won't get lynched today).
  
• Scum want to look town, it doesn't matter at which point they hop on a wagon as long as the people they are voting isn't their partner.

Both of these are scumtells in my book.

Post #14 : Voting Collatz (another coattail riding)

I've read Llamafluff's arguments on RM. It also seems to me that there is a dissonance between the explanation and the possible motivations behind him voting.

VOTE: Randommidget

Now what I don't understand is why he keeps playing the same kind of risky voting with easy wagon while he maintains an absurd attitude towards his possible motivation as scum.

---

I'm also getting increasingly suspicious of BBT's play. It seems I'm not the only one seeing him flipping around, yet I'm apparently misrepresenting him for something that he undeniably did. And then there is the vote to spite me when I was honestly answering that I didn't see the point in answering his questions in the following post :

Is there a problem?

I agree with the sentiment that Collatz recent play has somewhat declined. Is it deserving of a vote? No. Is he the scummiest person in this game? Not by a long shot.

Like I said, you misinterpreted my post the first time around (with relation to Random). Continue to try and misrep me and you'll earn yourself some rope.

Conclusion : I'm also ready to drive a train on BBT as he is my second scum-read right now.

---

Randommidget and BlueBloodedToffee are scum-read.
Llamafluff and Alchemist are strong town read.
DLA is probably town, just like RedCoyote - whom I wished he were here.
Reubus Swagrid is null though I like #274 a lot for his questioning on people's motivation.
The rest is not significant enough which tells me there is some scum lying amongst them.

@wgeurts:

Can we get prods please ?

[Otolia]

I don't like this. Not because you are voting for me but because of your reason. You voted for me because I've not been able to contribute much (A 3 week deadline was changed to a 3 day deadine) yet players such as MD have contribtued much less than me and you haven't voted for them. This isn't the only time you have posted about my inactivity. After my first prod dodge you talked about my inactivity yet you had also prod dodged. Kinda hypocritical don't you think? Also, why would you vote for me because of contribution when there are much more viable suspects who are actually suspicious?

If you ACTUALLY read the game, you would know that I've already pointed fingers towards the others. In this post, you try to deflect my point - which I'm not the only one to make BTW - unto others who are equally guilty. Believe me, you're like them. EXACTLY LIKE THEM. So stop whining, shape up and stop mistaking warnings for an attack.

[Otolia]

@BBT

: Can you get your chronology right ?! There was NO QUESTIONS THAT NEED ANSWERING. Besides you voted for me directly after I denied you. And now I can't say you're scum. So in your vision of Mafia, if scum attacks first, a townie must sit on its ass and wait patiently to be lynched to be cleared ? Well, not in mine. So you'll excuse me for getting all OMGUS on your ass but you quite deserve it.

I'm suspicious that you agree with others then retract yourself afterwards - and that no amount of denial from your part will change that. I'm suspicious that you said you voted for my wagon because it was bigger to then avoid tackling RM's case seriously. I'm suspicious that you keep saying small words here and there (even on your strongest read if I'm not mistaken) and I'm starting to see that as attempts to derail a possible wagon on RM whom you have defended numerous times (please don't force me to quote you on that). In fact all your interactions with randommidget are getting my scumdar all tingly. And you possibly see my lynch as a strong contender as opposed to RM - maybe due to you buddying DLA like a love-deprived puppy.

There you go. Now why am I scummy exactly ? If it's just because I didn't answer you and now I did here is my next answer :

[Otolia]

Otolia, is BBT scum?

If Randomidget is/flips scum, then very likely.

In a vacuum without RM acting scummy as well and him defending him (or whatever he wants to call his relationship with RM so that I'm not accused once again of "misrepresenting him" as I'm getting tired of that) ? Perhaps not as much. His links to RM are scummy, to me as well. His relationship with DLA less so and I don't understand what he sees in his interaction with you. Still I would take him to the gallows at this point of the game.

[Otolia]

Otolia, is BBT scum?

If Randomidget is/flips scum, then very likely.

In a vacuum without RM acting scummy as well and him defending him (or whatever he wants to call his relationship with RM so that I'm not accused once again of "misrepresenting him" as I'm getting tired of that) ? Perhaps not as much. His links to RM are scummy, to me as well. His relationship with DLA less so and I don't understand what he sees in his interaction with you. Still I would take him to the gallows at this point of the game.

I started the day with a vote on RM.

I am saying right now, i am against the RM wagon.

am i scummy too (if RM flips scum)?

do you think in the face of a mounting RM wagon, BBTscum would defend RMscum so openly?

more likely than not, BBT is scum(mier) if RM flips town and you are scum(mier) if RM flips scum.

Both this post and the precedent are hard to follow. In the last one, you are saying I'm not scum but then talk about Reubus. I'm not following you, sorry.

Regarding this post : Yes, I think a scum would try hard to defend its partner, especially if they are PR. It's just worth it. D1 is very swingy. A good defense can prevent a lynch long enough for the game to draw. And he isn't commiting very strongly yet but appears to prepare a space where he could potentially do more (yes I'm extrapolating here)

Besides being against a lynch isn't the same as defending the accusee. Your point mainly lies on the fact that RM doesn't actually read games and that you would rather lynch scum than policy lynch - you are actually detached from his play here. BBT considers him scum but prefers to lynch someone more scum. I don't see the same motivation here.

[Otolia]

Can you linked to the relevant game CKD ?

[Otolia]

Spoiler: Response to BBT

Regarding this post : Yes, I think a scum would try hard to defend its partner, especially if they are PR. It's just worth it. D1 is very swingy. A good defense can prevent a lynch long enough for the game to draw.

And he isn't commiting very strongly

yet but appears to prepare a space where he could potentially do more (yes I'm extrapolating here)

Besides being against a lynch isn't the same as defending the accusee. Your point mainly lies on the fact that RM doesn't actually read games and that you would rather lynch scum than policy lynch - you are actually detached from his play here.

BBT considers him scum but prefers to lynch someone more scum. I don't see the same motivation here.

Come on. Are people reading this shit??

This is getting ridiculous now.

Bold A - I have very clearly stated my position on Random.

Bold B - I do not, and have never, considered Random to be scum this game.

I'm getting frustrated with this now.

Well you and me both brother, because it looks VERY different from where I am (I've underlined the relevant part for you) :

Town

RC

Darklight

Collatz
CKD
Llama
Alchemist
Mnumonic

Random

Marcrell
Otolia
Reubus

Scum

And im concerned that you say there is at least one scum in RM and RS and then passively defend RM a few posts later.

I don't see a case that makes sense on Otolia. I do see all of my scum reads attacking them though.

There are far scummier people in this game right now than Random.

I feel that should be obvious.

Lynching Random achieves nothing. As someone just stated, it's a very easy wagon for scum to jump on and a low information lynch.

So you deny saying DLA was your strongest town-read, and you're right he was (may still is) your 2nd strongest.
As for your position on RM,

it was not as clear cut

as you make it to be and your indignation is pisplaced because I'm fucking right. I'm calling you out on facts I can prove and have done so numerous times. Yet your only defense is to scream that I'm scum for misrepresenting you - which is, again, not so clear as you make it out to be.

---

I'm sorry CKD, but I don't find the link you mention. I've tried to look rapidly through your ISO and didn't find it. I don't think you're lying, though that could be a great gambit as scum. I just can't find it. Nonetheless meta is iffy at best. I could totally envision using his notoriously bad rep to divert a train D1 or at least stall for time.

---

Spoiler: Mnemonic last post

Otolia, is BBT scum?

If Randomidget is/flips scum, then very likely.

In a vacuum without RM acting scummy as well and him defending him (or whatever he wants to call his relationship with RM so that I'm not accused once again of "misrepresenting him" as I'm getting tired of that) ? Perhaps not as much. His links to RM are scummy, to me as well. His relationship with DLA less so and I don't understand what he sees in his interaction with you. Still I would take him to the gallows at this point of the game.

Oh also VOTE: UNVOTE I need to reread before I place a vote on anyone besides this RVS one.

God, that was a shitty post. The game started more than a week ago and you've only realized that you need to get out of RVS ?

[Otolia]

OK, let's take this a step at a time.

So you deny saying DLA was your strongest town-read, and you're right he was (may still is) your 2nd strongest.

Show me where I denied I was town-reading DLA.

That link is for DLA...who is not my strongest scum-read and never has been. Though it does disprove your theory that I'm buddying him, so, there's that.

You didn't deny you were town-reading DLA. You said he isn't your strongest. Which is true because he was your 2nd strongest. You're fucking nitpicking like a madman. Why can't you admit you are wrong. I just proved it right fucking there.

[Otolia]

Yeah, you do that.

[Otolia]

Collatz continues to OMGUS me. My votes is staying.
Also

dayvig: CKD

What ?! The vig-kill are night based in C9++. What the fuck do you think you're doing ?

[Otolia]

What do you expect to achieve with claiming here ? Is the wagon destined to die once he claims PR ? Because if he is scum right now, there is no drawback to claim a PR. And I'm certainly not willing to start a massclaim right now.

[Otolia]

You can eat rope next.

Yeah sure, I mean it's not like you're at your first contradiction

Otolia is also probably town.

I'm gonna paraphrase you here : "You will eat rope next."

[Otolia]

LOL. You can't even make sense of your posts anymore. That's how deep in your bullshit you are.

[Otolia]

I ...


I'll try to avoid this game for tonight. I'm not particularly for an RS lynch especially considering RM just tried to DayVig someone in a setup where there is no DayVig (for no reason) but his last post was just bad argumentation. So do what you want with that tonight.

[Otolia]

@Randommidget : Can I have an answer now ? Why did you fake the dayvig ? What's the point ?

[Otolia]

Do you remember when you whined like a little kid about me answering for you in the very early game ? Here is a trip down memory lane if you don't :

He

was informed but didn't read

his

PM that carefully.

So this is you not talking about me, right?

Are you always that obnoxious and self-contradicting, or is it just with me ?

[Otolia]

So here we are with someone who was under scrutiny for being a huge liability who suddenly finds that the appropriate response to demands he start playing decently is to say a huge fuck-you to everyone and

joke

dayvig. So you would say he isn't concerned about being lynche, right ? So why in his next post does does he write this :

Alchemist - I think he is probably town. Don't really know why.
BBT -

the fact that he is more concerned with stopping a mislynch than finding one makes me think town.

DLA - whilst his early play felt good, some of his play has felt odd recently. I'm starting to lean null-scum. More on this coming.
Otolia - entire play feels off. I just think that this could be a clash of play styles, but I don't see town motivation in his posting
CKD - I don't see scum being this much of a dickhead. VI.
Sorry, I have to go, will finish this later.

Note that he never finished his list ... Described himself as the potential mislynch and appears to be thankful to BBT for taking his sides. The gap between an act that can only be described as stupid (the dayvig attempt) and the calculated attempt to buddy BBT cannot be the result of a town-aligned player.

VOTE: Randommidget

[Otolia]

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

You're not in my top 2 (Randommidget & BBT). When I voted you in D1 shortly before I did a re-read as an incentive to keep your promises to town. Considering there isn't a lot of people who can say that this game, it shouldn't worry you that much.

So why do you feel like I'm persecuting you ?

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

Any reasoning behind your vote or did you just realize that because everyone is listing me as scum, I would potentially be an easy for a lowlife like you ?

• I'm waiting on a post from Marcrell, as he should be back by now.
  
• MD vs. BBT - Any engagement from any party or are you just entering a verbal joust for our amusement ?
  
• Lucky2U. You are confTown. Is that too much to asked that you participate more ? Your opinion holds that much more value but you look like you were expecting to die in N1 and thus gave up on the game.
  
• We are in a weird vote crossfire. I'm very unconformable with that.
  
• BBT, why did you start posting like RedCoyote ? I prefered when you were obnoxious and couldn't keep your words. At least that was easy to spot.

[Otolia]

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

You're not in my top 2 (Randommidget & BBT). When I voted you in D1 shortly before I did a re-read as an incentive to keep your promises to town. Considering there isn't a lot of people who can say that this game, it shouldn't worry you that much.

So why do you feel like I'm persecuting you ?

I haven't said anything about you persecuting me so I'm lost here. The only way this makes sense to me is if this isn't aimed at me and you accidently quoted me.

I don't believe you're scum. So there is no : "especially considering how much he believes I am scum". Unless I'm misunderstanding things.

Tell me why you're scum-reading me Otolia.

You're contradicting yourself all the time and acts as if you don't. I would expect more much self-consciousness from a town player.

[Otolia]

Oh.

People usually consider self-awareness a scum-tell.

Is that it? Are you saying town don't contradict themselves? (Hint; I haven't contradicted myself)

Town don't try to act as if nothing ever happened just like you're doing right now.

[Otolia]

OK. So apparently I am understanding english less and less.

[Otolia]

VII) If you have failed to post for over 48 hours, I will send you a prod. Failure to respond to this prod within 24 hours will result in the replacement of that player. Force-replacing of flakers/rule-breakers will be occur at my discretion.

My last post was less than 48 hours ago.

[Otolia]

I'm sorry wgeurts but you're wrong. My last post before #545 above was #513 on 07 Apr 2015, 20:28. It would have been 48h at 20:28 today. I don't mind getting prodded, as I haven't been the most active here but apparently we are not the only insane people in here Also there is only one vote on Collatz.

@RC : You've been on marcrell this whole game (more or less) and complains that he hasn't been very active. Why didn't you change target ? Your points are well made but given that you're unlikely to forget it, why not see the other cases ? Like BBT vs. MD ?

Not insane, tired

[Otolia]

This post by Otolia is mindblowing:

Spoiler: Otolia

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

You're not in my top 2 (Randommidget & BBT). When I voted you in D1 shortly before I did a re-read as an incentive to keep your promises to town. Considering there isn't a lot of people who can say that this game, it shouldn't worry you that much.

So why do you feel like I'm persecuting you ?

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

Any reasoning behind your vote or did you just realize that because everyone is listing me as scum, I would potentially be an easy for a lowlife like you ?

[truncated]

Otolia appears to be responding to the same post twice in two separate quotes(?) and also calls RandomMidget a "lowlife". Ad hominems don't help a case.

BBT, why did you start posting like RedCoyote ? I prefered when you were obnoxious and couldn't keep your words. At least that was easy to spot.

This is also strange. To my eyes it seems like Otolia is saying (if indirectly) that BBT's playstyle change makes him look less scummy, and labeling that as a negative thing. Has Otolia decided that BBT is scum regardless of future posts?

I'm gonna park my vote here for the time being as no one seems particularly keen on Alchemist yet.

VOTE: Otolia

Woah. I didn't thought you could be this nonsensical DLA. O.O

In your first post, I'm addressing 2 different persons and thus I quote 2 different part of the discussion. Oh and lowlife == scum. There was a misunderstanding that we cleared in #512. So your argument kinda falls flat there.

As for the second part, I already consider BBT scummy. I've posted why numerous times (hint: he contradicts himself all the time) but nobody seems interested in seeing him as anything but town. And yes when a change of playstyle of someone I consider scum makes him look less scummy to everyone else, then it's a bad thing obviously.

Is that all you can do DLA ? Because that's a very poor post you made. Seems like you're still riding your town-cred from D1. Where is the aggressiveness you displayed when you attacked me on D1 ? It seems to me it was all for show.

VOTE: DarkLightA

[Otolia]

Your points were so bad it warranted a change of vote. You were AGAIN trying so hard to find things to say. Just like you did against Collatz at the beginning of the game. But what's even more interesting is how you changed your attitude. By your own words, I'm consistent with myself. You aren't. That's a big issue.

[Otolia]

Short post before I get back to work : I criticize your change of playstyle not reads, DLA. Your attack on me was weak and not at all what I would have expected given your D1 play. I also feel like you are riding your town-cred from D1 which is unwarranted in my opinion. I'll cover the rest of the discussion later.

[Otolia]

What are you waiting for from Marcrell?
Do you have an opinion on MD vs BBT instead of making a filler comment?
Who is in a weird vote crossfire?
How am I posting like RC?

1. Replacement would be great but realistically, some answers is the best we're going to get.

2. MD is non-commital and his focus on you was weak but at the same time, you, a strong scum-read of mine is taunting him. That's was free and without consequences ... until you voted him.

3. Alchemist, Collatz, CKD in #543

4. The post listing you are doing more and more.

---

But what's even more interesting is how you changed your attitude.

What exactly do you mean by "your attitude" in this post?

Being a town leader in D1 (vote on Collatz, on me etc) to being more passive. What has changed ?

---

Otoila, I need you to show me what you're seeing differently in BBT's play, and I mean SHOW not TELL because I haven't noticed a change and if you can't show me why you think that I'll assume you're talking out of your ass.

Alright, =23899&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]here is BBT's ISO. Now I admit, he did post RC's style in 314 but I had the impression he did it more often in D2. I was somewhat right up to friday when my point became outright stupid and wrong.

Do you think that all Town players will maintain the same playstyle on D2? Personally I think a lot of people change to some extent going into D2 because they've had time to read back and reflect in the game.

If yes, then do you think DLA and BBT are conciously or subconsciously changing their playstyle?

Playstyle is mostly irrelevant. One can adopt a new one. What matters is motivation. I see scum motivation in DLA being a driving force D1 and taking a step back in D2 (though that's attitude) and I have already said I find the listings of comment hard to read - thus could be used as scum.

---

That should cover all questions I have been asked. I still look like a fool though but for some reason my wagon vanished ? I'm very puzzled as to what happened. Also Randommidget is still voting me. I can understand DLA's vote from a town PoV but I cannot fathom RM's. I'm still deciding on RM vs. Marcrell since I've been told I have to do that. Probably marcrell. I'll have that today.

Why aren't you voting anyone BBT ?

[Otolia]

I'm perfectly OK with going into the night with marcrell dead. It's not like his play mattered anyway. If the situation doesn't change, I'll hammer at midnight CEST. I don't like asking for claim in semi-open unless a fullclaim is coming as it's completely pointless so I won't bother with that. But I'm letting people with more towncred than me decided if they want one - now is your time.

[Otolia]

What makes you think a claim is pointless? What do you define as a fullclaim vs a claim? What if, say, Marcrell is a cop and can provide investigative results? What's "completely pointless" about that?

I thought he was scum ? But no matter, you're the scum here. That above is the proof.

[Otolia]

Reasoning is not your forte huh ?

[Otolia]

I thought he was scum ? But no matter, you're the scum here. That above is the proof.

Can you explain how the post you quoted points to DLA being scum?

It doesn't matter what marcrell claims.

Let's postulate that he is indeed a town PR. There are 2 roles that are relevant : JK and Cop. Thing is JK is not indicative of alignment, nor is Cop since there may be a Godfather.
Other possibility, he is scum. He claims a PR, we have no way to confirm his claim without a complete fullclaim from everybody.

Since the principal proponent of such a reveal is dead (OH THAT'S CONVENIENT) there is little we can do. Are we going to take what he says at face value despite the fact that we KNOW for sure, it's not going to be useful to town ? Look how convenient it is for DLA to stall if he is scum with marcrell. He votes him so he cannot be accused of being fishy, but still tries to peg me as scum. Saving his buddy much ? Also the mention of cop screams scum-buddy coaching his buddy to a fake-claim. There is no reason to wait for a claim in the present conditions. Doing so only makes the game much harder for town by introducing potential WIFOMs.

[Otolia]

I thought he was scum ? But no matter, you're the scum here. That above is the proof.

Can you explain how the post you quoted points to DLA being scum?

It doesn't matter what marcrell claims.

Let's postulate that he is indeed a town PR. There are 2 roles that are relevant : JK and Cop. Thing is JK is not indicative of alignment, nor is Cop since there may be a Godfather.
Other possibility, he is scum. He claims a PR, we have no way to confirm his claim without a complete fullclaim from everybody.

Since the principal proponent of such a reveal is dead (OH THAT'S CONVENIENT) there is little we can do. Are we going to take what he says at face value despite the fact that we KNOW for sure, it's not going to be useful to town ? Look how convenient it is for DLA to stall if he is scum with marcrell. He votes him so he cannot be accused of being fishy, but still tries to peg me as scum. Saving his buddy much ? Also the mention of cop screams scum-buddy coaching his buddy to a fake-claim. There is no reason to wait for a claim in the present conditions. Doing so only makes the game much harder for town by introducing potential WIFOMs.

it very much matters what he claims. If he claims cop, we will probably still lynch him anyway cause youre right he could be scum lying. However we will get his results before his flips, so if he DOES flip as a cop WE KNOW WHAT HIS RESULTS WERE.

Never heard of Godfather have you ? There is one in more than 50% of the possible scum-setups. His results may be right or not. IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTERS !

[Otolia]

At no point did I say we would write off the possibility of godfather and %100 trust his results even if he flips as a cop. However you are being ridiculous if you think some information doesn't help us. It's Day 2 so he is only going to have ONE result. Let's say it was an innocent on DLA. Then we sure as hell are not lynching DLA for several more days since the likelyhood of there being a godfather (by your own math) is %50 and of him targeting the godfather is 1 out of 11 (since there is never more than one godfather) that means it is a %4.5 chance that his result is wrong. SO STOP RUSHING THE HAMMER YOU DOLT!

I'm not rushing the hammer since I won't hammer. Just like I said I wouldn't if people wanted a claim. You're going to get it and I'm going to laugh because nothing will change.

[Otolia]

Oh dear.

Vig, please kill me tonight.

[Otolia]

What do you want me to address ? The fact that I could fathom a DLA town voting against me and that I couldn't see RM town doing the same ? Because I just did. I am able to put myself into other people shoes. That's called empathy and I give out free lessons if you want.

[Otolia]

Vig

, please kill me tonight.

?

Otolia:

What makes you think there's a vig.

What makes you think marcrell has any relevant info ? Nothing. Moving on.

[Otolia]

No.

[Otolia]

I'm laughing my ass off while we wait for the emptiness in our minds to fill the void in our hearts.

[Otolia]

Hi Otolia, I see you.

Reads on Marcrell and MD?

I'm at work. I don't necessarily have the time or the willingness to answer you now. But I have a draft I'll end up posting.

[Otolia]

Just an FYI, self-voting as town will make me replace out during the night.

[Otolia]

Unless someone counter claims, there is no reason not to

That's not really how the setup works. Still there could be 2 vigs and scum got blocked but that's unlikely in my opinion.

[Otolia]

Any reason besides I apparently understand the setup better than everyone else here ?

[Otolia]

Unless someone counter claims, there is no reason not to

That's not really how the setup works. Still there could be 2 vigs and scum got blocked but that's unlikely in my opinion.

Yes that is how this setup works. There were two kills last night. A serial killer is already dead, thus the only possible role responsible is a vigilante. Yes it's possible for there to be 2 vigilantes, but how probable is it they both exist and both chose to target alchemist on Night 2?

The setup is T or TTT, V or VVV or VVVVV and M or MMM. I infer that there is just one vig and just one mason-like role. Which leaves a lot of place for cops, doctors and roleblockers.

You're really terrible at setup analysis and you should really refrain from talking out of your ass.

[Otolia]

Claim : VT

RC is next.

[Otolia]

Aren't we forgetting someone here ? MD hasn't claimed yet.

[Otolia]

Because I didn't want to be shot... I wasn't going to say "btw, I know Marcrell is scum but don't ask me how I know".

That's a very weak argument. You pushed one of their members to their death. What makes you think they don't want to kill you regardless of your role ?

[Otolia]

So I decided to throw the towel. The game wasn't lost per se (there was a way to win for us) but with MD absence, I couldn't go forward with it. When RC claimed cop, I knew we were fucked massively since I was expecting another PR and didn't really prepare for that.

Here are the two scenarii that allow us to win depending on MD's claim :
If he claims VT, we need to lynch one of CKD or DLA today. The cop will investigate the remaining one, so we have 50% chance of killing the right cop or we lose. Assuming we get the right cop. Someone else is cleared and we have 3confTown with 2 non-guilty result. Then we need to convince town to lynch the other who isn't named MD and then we win (2scum vs. town)

If he claims Cop, we need to get lynch one of the cop today, kill someone, lynch the other cop (while avoiding the guilty on me !), kill someone else, then we have won (2scum vs. town) -- There is more leeway in this scenario since we can get to a 3p LyLo as well.

All in all, it wasn't very enjoyable for me because I couldn't adapt to the playing style of marcrell and MD. I played every day as well as I could given the circumstances so I don't have too much regret. My nights however weren't as productive as they should have been.

Also I enjoyed a bit more leeway than I should have by playing the dumb guy at some points which I won't be able to do again with any of you. I'll post player commentary on everyone in the week.

[Otolia]

What makes you think that ?

[Otolia]

What makes you think that ?

You left a confirmed town alive. Twice.

Just narrowing the lynch pool down for yourselves.

Lucky2u was vastly irrelevant. I probably could have win a 3p LyLo even with him being an IC and that's accounting the fact that I had to do scummy things and attract attention in order to mitigate marcrell's and mnemonic's inactivity.

[Otolia]

Alright, due to unforeseen circumstances, I finally have the time to post these small comments - it's shorter than I initially wanted to but I don't have time to do a complete read. Sorry

• Alchemist21 : You played a decent game. You still have a tendency to consider outlandish things as townish whereas it's not really indicative.
  
• BlueBloodedToffee : Very good game with an early positioning. Too much buddying though and not enough
  
• DarkLightA : The first day was outstanding, the rest was lackluster in comparison. You got drawn into my stupid arguments a bit too much as well. Sometimes as town, it's not worth to speak to your targets.
  
• Otolia : You are awesome.
  
• curiouskarmadog : Your analysis is what prompted me to resign as I knew you were on the right tracks. Also you defended RandomMidget town. Had we succeeded in lynching him, the game would have been way better for scum.
  
• Collatz : Relatively in-experienced in regards to the rest of town but you didn't do anything major to hinder us. In retrospect, I should have interacted with you more in order to get more content.
  
• mnemonicdevice : Please don't flake
  
• Amy Farrah Fowler, LlamaFluff :
  
• randomidget : Questionable night actions.
  
• Marcrell : Please don't flake
  
• Lucky2u : If you were anything but the IC, I would have said it was an OK game. But as an IC you were a non-factor. Sure the fact that you survived is great but your leadership as confTown was inexistant. I don't mean to control the game necessarily, but your opinions weren't heard enough.
  
• RedCoyote : Steady play throughout the game but it screamed PR a bit too much. Perhaps it's just your usual playstyle.
  
• Reubus Swagrid : If I remember well, you were too malleable under pressure. If I can recommend anything, it's that to avoid being lynched early, you should be more firm in your position. You thought about what we wanted to hear and not about what a VT would say.