Open 589: Duck Duck Goose (Game Over: Somebody Won)

[davesaz]

Supplementary question:
Who am I indirectly chainsawing, and why?

Given there are so many points, some more obvious than others, I'll answer separately.

Chainsaw is a defense by attacking the attacker, or at least that's the meaning I got when others tried to accuse me of it. Obviously that would be pisskop, since I'm voting him and he's the leading wagon.

[davesaz]

1)

Why aren't fearful scum likely to stay off both wagons?
- since you were off both wagons and you're trying to present fearful scum as something else

My point, which I thought was as plain as it was possible to make it, is there was no evidence that scum were fearful

at that time

. Not to mention, it's not even my term.

GreyICE

came along and called them fearful

after

the flip and no-kill.

Since scum would have had no reason to be fearful at the time, fearfulness is immaterial to reading the VCA.

GreyICE thinks scum are fearful this game. Do I look fearful to you? If you're looking for fearful people, look for the ones who aren't posting much.
(Whether this fearfulness thing is accurate or not goes to a different point and will be answered separately.

[Netherspite]

@Nether: Having a 3rd lynch candidate be a null-scum is not an issue. As town I'd consider a null-town for a lynch to avoid a no-lynch. It wouldn't be a first choice...

But we have a plurality rule.
Why attempting to push your nullscum-read even in the third place?

[Storyteller]

Vote Count 2.03

With 11 alive it's 6 votes to Lynch.

Voting for:

Netherspite (0):
davesaz (3): Honey bee, talah, Pisskop
talah (2): Kaboose, Netherspite
Honey bee (0):
GreyICE(0):

Pisskop(4): GreyICE, Taly, davesa, ChriViz

Kaboose (0):
oddmusic (0):
ploben (0):
ChriVi (0):
Taly (0):

If deadline is reached without any changes to the votes,

Pisskop

would be lynched.

Not voting (2): oddmusic, ploben

Deadline is on April 15nd, 1625 UTC or in (expired on 2015-04-15 16:25:00)

[davesaz]

4)

Why are you obfuscating a lot of the actions you are taking?
- since this is highly anti-town and just as likely to provoke town as it is to catch scum, and I think it might be so you can make something up later

It's called scumhunting. There are times that town want to give scum something to react to. It is a valid observation that town might react to it too. The skill is in looking at both reactions to see which is the town reaction and which is scum.

My first post of the day (logic says Odd and Kaboose are scum) without explaining why was a reaction test based on actual logic. That logic went "I'm town, and tied wagons implies both wagons are scum, which implies Odd is scum, which implies Kaboose is scum and couldn't bear to choose which buddy to keep". Several reactions are possible.

• Point out the logic error
• Accept the logic and attack either Odd or Kaboose
• Attack me
• Ignore the whole thing
• Something I didn't anticipate

Part of the logic turns out to be incorrect. I noticed this fairly soon but decided to slow play the reveal. Another reaction test, similar possible results.

Reaction tests usually require some hidden element. And they usually depend on not having interference from other players.

[davesaz]

@Nether: Having a 3rd lynch candidate be a null-scum is not an issue. As town I'd consider a null-town for a lynch to avoid a no-lynch. It wouldn't be a first choice...

But we have a plurality rule.
Why attempting to push your nullscum-read even in the third place?

I did not pay attention to the details of who the 3 people are for Talah. I'm stating a theoretical position. Up to you to decide whether you think it's a reasonable interpretation. Though I might consider it an interesting thing to look at.

If the lynch leaders include a town and a null, and plurality lynch rules are in effect, you're better off voting the null than doing nothing. The point of attack when looking at this is not that the person voted was nullscum when there are higher scum reads. The point of attack is why the other wagoned player (who later flipped scum) was a town read.

If the lynch leaders include a scum and a null, with or without plurality, and someone votes the null -- then this is very questionable. If your point is that Talah was scum reading Vettrock and only nullscum on Odd, and voted Odd, then I'd consider it a smoking gun.

[davesaz]

Regarding myself, and GreyICE, and "credit for Vettrock lynch".

Vote: Taly

Please join us friends, in welcoming the scum to the noose!

You get bonus points if you don't make me explain why

Mmmmm, nah. I bet at least 5 people here are good enough to get it without a paint by numbers.

When I read Taly's posts, I see "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance then baffle them with your B.S." Are we on the same wavelength on that?
What I'm not sure of is how to make that alignment indicative. How do we know it's not just "loquacious newb"?
I think we get plenty of information anyway, and that's good for town, but weigh Taly vs Vettrock with that question in mind. Still like Taly better?

I must say, after our previous encounter I have serious misgivings about sheeping you. But I do see it... TBH it was right there all along, but the steady drip gets numbing after a while. It's pretty damn obvious if you're looking fresh or if you ISO.

When I read Taly's posts, I see "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance then baffle them with your B.S." Are we on the same wavelength on that?
What I'm not sure of is how to make that alignment indicative. How do we know it's not just "loquacious newb"?
I think we get plenty of information anyway, and that's good for town, but weigh Taly vs Vettrock with that question in mind. Still like Taly better?

We're on the same wavelength with Taly, but with a few extras that I'll expound on in a little.

Given your question... Taly is a pretty strong read but... good god Vettrock has been scummy since... oh god. Post 2? Post 3?

Vote: Vettrock

GreyICE had voted both Taly and Vettrock before this point. (Taly vote is included in the quoted posts).
I agree on Taly but suggest that the things we're both seeing could be newb (alignment unknown) where Vettrock looks more scum.
GreyICE agrees with me and switches back to Vettrock again.

I don't claim to be responsible for the Vettrock lynch. What I do claim is making a point that caused GreyICE to focus on Vettrock over Taly. Scum would have to be pretty crazy to do that.

This change in direction from GreyICE, and in particular how easy it was to convince him to switch, bothered me and I ended up not voting Vettrock myself. More on why it bothered me later, that fits in with a different train of thought.

[GreyICE]

It shouldn't bother you. The other game we played I tunneled you when there was TN5421 who was blatantly obvious scum (we ended up lynching him day 3). I realized I was tunneling when there was a free scum lynch just sitting there.

Not sold on Taly town, but you could never have in a million years sold me on vettrock town with those posts.

More in a bit.

[ploben]

Based on my last post (785) I still think Taly and pisskop are town.

If there was another scum on oddmusic on D1 that leaves ChriVi and Talah. Current votes on pisskop are GreyICE, Taly, davesa, ChriVi. That leaves ChriVi as the overlapping vote on both, and I'm not really townleaning on ChriVi with her D1 and D2 activity the same, which is unimpressive to say the least.

Talah has been leaning town all game for me so I'm not voting her wagon. Plus roll that in with her and Netherspite going at it last night and I see that as same alignment (town vs town not knowing each other OR scum vs scum bussing the hell out of each other). Logic: talah leaning town for me means Netherspite is also.

This leaves the 3rd wagon of davesaz, which so happens to have 2 of my town voting on. davesaz's got this scumhunting/reaction test thing in limbo and under wraps so I don't know what that will yield. I actually was keeping my eye out for something at the end of D1 and start of D2 but it hasn't really made the surface, but that makes me relate a little to what davesaz might be attempting. davesaz's also been on talah since D1 so his play hasn't changed. With no NK and scum daytalk that's something I was looking for in a scummy player, a change in play style D1 to D2.

This is going to be PoE in my mind in D2 so I'm sitting here with ChriVi and davesaz as candidates for my vote. One has a wagon and the other doesn't. Tell me why I'm right/wrong.

[Netherspite]

@ploben

What do you think about my points on

talah

?
Am I making a mountain out of molehill?
Because I seriously don't get her weird reads on

vettrock

.

[ploben]

@ploben

What do you think about my points on

talah

?
Am I making a mountain out of molehill?
Because I seriously don't get her weird reads on

vettrock

.

The Short Answer: Yes, I think you're making a bigger deal than need be out of talah's use of labeling players.

The Long Answer: I think there is a difference in approach between the two of you when using labels and terminology like "null". Don't get me wrong, the object of the game is to be constantly evaluating and looking for other players' evaluations and then using those evaluations to see conflicting information to possibly catch scum. But I was in talah's boat on my vett read so I can really relate. I didn't really notice vett early and it took someone to mention his pretty useless posts before I went back and looked into him. That and the fact with odd's jump off Kaboose and on to Vett at the end of D1 to save his skin, I now had a pretty fool-proof thought process, through a lynch, to identify some people and clear up a question mark in my book (odd).

Again, breaking down and over-analysing is the name of this game but your issue with talah's nullscum read = top 3rd lynch is really not as big of an issue that I think you're making it out to be. I learned this from live mafia games: newb town (I'm not addressing anyone in particular) just wants to be right and have a 100% conviction before calling someone out or voting. In reality, this actually hurts town because that player either get's lynched for not having conviction or misses opportunities to jump on scum but they don't because they aren't reading 100% scum on someone. I'm not calling you newb, I'm just using it as an example. I think you're looking for the "perfect" reasoning and hard 100% scum read in players and talah is not. Talah is going off of less than 100% scum convictions to mold her lynch list.

[Netherspite]

Ok, I think I should unvote for now.
UNVOTE:

Going to ISO

pisskop

and

davesaz

.

Speaking of

ChriVi

, I find it terrible that we have almost no content from them to build some genuine read.
If I remember correctly they promised some better play D2 but I still don't see any of it.

[ploben]

Speaking of

ChriVi

, I find it terrible that we have almost no content from them to build some genuine read.
If I remember correctly they promised some better play D2 but I still don't see any of it.

Preaching to the choir. Gave ChriVi day pass D1 with promise of better play D2. Still no content. Would make for an interesting scumteam with 1 scum active and the other scum lurking.

[davesaz]

It's a work day. Longer post in progress on my comp. The only ongoing unexplained item is GreyICE. His reply is unrelated to my concern. Scumread on Talah is your assumption -- my opinion is in flux though attacking me -> possible scum is part of reaction test. God reply on mobile is painful...

[davesaz]

2)

Why didn't you see my vote on Kaboose as a pressure vote?
- since you came in afterward and simply laid suspicion and said it was "for pressure" later

This interaction?

Spoiler: stuff

talah please stop being useless with your vote and make a case on me or make a case on someone else and put your vote there

Ehhh - I never promised to make a case on you, my vote's on you because

I'm yet to

I was yet to see anything particularly useful or townish from you. I will admit I'm getting pretty bored with my vote here but your obstinance in wanting my vote off you is making me want to persist.

Still - I can see a bit of motivation with your voting. It's not as random as it seems.

UNVOTE: ChriVi

You know what - my next line under that unvote was a vote for NJAC. But then I look at the gamestate and both you and Kaboose have just unvoted him on the slightest twinges of pressure and I'm liking ploben's moxy. I also like the wagon composition, and it's getting late in the day. Well maybe I have some misgivings about oddmusic, but still.

VOTE: Kaboose

My 334 was not suggesting we should just go ahead and do it(although we should just go ahead and do it because as far as I'm concerned he keeps lying to us with his "i'm getting to it now" and because he's been useless imo) but it was more of a question as to why they would want to be closer to deadline to figure out the lynch. It felt like stalling to me, and it also makes me so angry when a game gets close to deadline and someone gets to L-1 and then that someone claims something that causes everyone to second guess everything so unvotes start happening and then scum know even more before we learn anything if it's a town L-1 claim. That's why I asked about them wanting to use the entire deadline.

It shouldn't be looked at as "We are lynching someone at this time" because that's just as bad an a misinformed lynch to put a deadline on it. I feel a more town way of thinking is "lynch when you have a good lynch"

NJAC is a good lynch to me.

Is it scummy to support a lynch? Because you're telling me it is.

UNVOTE: NJAC

Ploben why am I scum?

What happened between these two posts?

Ploben why am I scum?

I have a better question for you: why are you town? Can you point to legitimate scum hunting?

UNVOTE: NJAC

Ploben why am I scum?

I didn't like

Kaboose

's wagon initially and then comes this.

@Kaboose

Why did you feel the need to unvote here?

I just asked him the same question. What don't you like about Kaboose?

Ploben why am I scum?

I have a better question for you: why are you town? Can you point to legitimate scum hunting?

My goodness. I hope you have a good follow-up to this question.

Do you find anyone scummy apart from Kaboose, based on your re-evaluation?

I'm going to need to re-read and evaluate.

The question does have a point.

My "better question, why are you town" was a reply to Kaboose's question to Ploben. Your interaction with Kaboose didn't factor into the discussion. I didn't know, or care, that you were pursuing the same angle. That part of the discussion wasn't "loaded into memory". Nor did I care that Nether was involved. I was replying to a specific post, in the flow of my (busy) day, and had taken no special notice of what else was going on. That's one of the ways I scum hunt, and you don't get to judge me on whether it's a good way or not. You hunt scum your way, I'll hunt mine.

[ploben]

And ChriVi is an hour away from being eligible for another prod. Is this lurking scum or bad town? Someone help me with this.

[pisskop]

Bad town.

[Netherspite]

And ChriVi is an hour away from being eligible for another prod. Is this lurking scum or bad town? Someone help me with this.

They were prodded ~16 hours ago.
So they're not eligible for another prod. But will become eligible for a replace in ~32 more hours.

[Netherspite]

Bad town.

What exactly makes you thinking they're bad town and not lurking scum?

[pisskop]

-Viomi.
-I dont feel like their motives are scum motivated.
-If they're scum they'll be found out by PoE

[davesaz]

Bad town.

What exactly makes you thinking they're bad town and not lurking scum?

Dammit, quit asking the questions I want to ask. Someone will mistakenly think we're connected.

[davesaz]

-Viomi.
-I dont feel like their motives are scum motivated.
-If they're scum they'll be found out by PoE

Lack of scum does not necessarily mean town. Are there any town motivated actions you can point to?

[Kaboose]

My first post of the day (logic says Odd and Kaboose are scum) without explaining why was a reaction test based on actual logic. That logic went "I'm town, and tied wagons implies both wagons are scum, which implies Odd is scum, which implies Kaboose is scum and couldn't bear to choose which buddy to keep". Several reactions are possible.

How do you come to just me and Odd as scum? I'm going to go find it right now, but if it's because I wasn't on either of the wagons from yesterday, then why aren't you mentioning the other person who was on the Talah wagon with me?

[Kaboose]

oh because that other person was you. So how am I scum for doing the same thing you did? Wouldn't that make you scum as well?

[Taly]

I may be a bit hypocritical here, but I'm not really fond when people reference other peoples play based off of games they had with them in the past. It does hold some consistency, but not everyone is going to have the exact same town and scum play they did in a previous game. This is partially why I'm not entirely sold on

ChriVi

being town... They are null-with very slight town lean to me. If we don't start seeing more elaborate responses, then I think we'll have to take another look into her/him.

Im willing to bet Taly/Dave at this juncture.

Pisskop

... babyboo- can you please provide some reasoning on your thoughts revolving around this? Thanks.

Honestly, I'm still scum reading

Pisskop

in general - I haven't liked

Pisskops

almost nonexistent D1 play... Still not happy, I feel he might be taking credibility for several wagons here, where he is jumping from. I want to hear more from him, and

why he thinks I'm scum

since I explained why I was on the

odd

wagon that he supposedly said he started.... And from my current understanding, the reason why he is thinking I'm scum.