Mini 1723: Town of Helen Day 4

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Rob13

I also write code. There can only be one.

@Vedith - just wait till I join that GBA game too
(jk three ongoing games is gonna be enough for me right now)

[GuiltyLion]

SW vs Titus - Titus seems to manipulating/inferring a lot from SW's posts to provoke a reaction. Leaning town because it's extremely aggressive and succeeding in getting a response from SW. SW is overdefensive but frustration at being scumread for stupid reasons comes from either alignment, so still null on her for now.

I like where Vedith and pistachi0n are at. Rob13 is efforting a bit too much this early in the game but I will have to meta this weekend to see if that's normal for him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Aristophanes. Standing on the sidelines and sheeping Titus, fueling the flames of an unproductive and petty argument. We already have one person getting under SilverWolf's skin and using it to paint her as scummy, we don't need two.

[GuiltyLion]

I was merely pointing out logic.

In 34, SilverWolf (as Inquisitor) states that Titus is overreaching to an RVS vote. I don't believe this is trying to bring the game back into RVS, if anything, it is continuing forward as it generates more discussion. But then Titus says in 37 that SilverWolf is "crawling" back to RVS, an aggressive and loaded remark to generate a response. And then you say:

Since Inquisition seems to be trying to pull us back to RVS as well as being defensive for no reason.

That's not logic, that's just sheeping a loaded accusation from Titus.

You don't have to explicitly say things in order for then to be inferred. But I can see you aren't too good at realizing these nuances. This is also what basically happened with the SK business. Whether you said it or not, there was a mention of an SK brought into play in referencing that game.

So here you're saying SilverWolf is

bad at seeing/understanding inferences

- a subjective evaluation - and then accusing her of being scummy for introducing the idea of an SK.

I really don't follow the "logic" here at all, which is why my vote is on you.

As for the over-effort by Rob13, I don't think it's necessarily alignment-indicative, but his first real post 81 is a lot of summary rather than push. Then what I didn't like was that he FoS'd Titus for the "us" line, asked a great question in 127, but then moved his FoS to Prolapsed_Brain without a real answer from Titus to 127. On the surface it looks like scumhunting but I'm wary that he could be just poking around to build towncred. Regardless, he's more likely town than not based on his effort and probability, so I like my vote on you better.

P-EDIT: whoa that was a lot of activity since I started this post, will comment further in a bit.

[GuiltyLion]

Trying too hard? That's utter shit. Applying that to Rob when he's asking questions and not to sw is wtf. Your Ari attack also makes no sense if SW is null.

Why do you think pistachi0n's vote is on Rob then? You don't see how scum would benefit from looking town in the beginning of the game when it's easiest to 'scumhunt'? I didn't see a reason for Prolapsed_Brain to draw fire from Rob13 this early in the game. It's an easy push to make and feels like probing for the sake of probing, rather than probing with results in mind.

[GuiltyLion]

2. Don't see the relevance to Rob in particular and that can be used to weaken any townreads that you don't like.

Yup, agreed. I think I'm generally shit at my D1 reads and therefore I don't trust them, especially if I get the sense that someone is trying to get people to townread them.

3. I don't think PB was trying to draw fire from anyone.

Maybe this is a miscommunication, I was saying I didn't understand why Rob13 suddenly decided to focus Prolapsed_Brain for making empty posts when the game's only been open for less than 2 days. There are players who hadn't/haven't posted yet, it feels like a directionless push. Could come from town or scum, all I'm saying is that I'm not gonna townlean him for it.

From a more theoretical standpoint than practical for this game, you have this backward. Scum probes with results in mind, because they already know who is and isn't town. Town probes to see who squirms, and then they go for the results.

Sure, but how is Titus gonna squirm when you drop your vote from her and go after a weaker target instead?

[GuiltyLion]

He's chainsawing on behalf of someone as null. He's discounting all attempts to sort you, thus maintaining the drama between me and you. Chainsawing someone you're "null" reading is a contradiction. Add in he's made no effort to sort you (at least at the time of this post), but poo poos any attempt to sort you, contradiction 2.

He also discourages Rob for trying to hard, but leaves out us. Regardless of your alignment, you're trying so hard to get me lynched that you're drowning out everyone else. Yet, he leaves you out. He leaves me out as well despite me scumhunting. Contradiction 3.

This leaves out the fact that "trying too hard" is not a scumtell at all. Contradiction 4. Spamming and disrupting attempts to scumhunt and fearmongering are scumtells but merely being active, don't think so.

Calling you over defensive and being scumread for "stupid reasons" doesn't jive with a townread on for getting reactions from you and voting you for them. Contradiction 6 ( but this one is weaker).

I'm not discounting

efforts

to sort SilverWolf, I'm discounting sorting people for stupid reasons. I can see town-motivation for your attacks+reasoning even if I think your conclusions are stupid. SilverWolf thinks "scum" means anyone non-town, you think "scum" means the mafia faction, excluding a SK. Who cares? The literal argument itself doesn't tell me anything about either of your alignments and the fact that it dragged on for several pages is a giant waste of effort. However, you were on the aggressive, SilverWolf was on the (over)defense. So you get townpoints while Silver remains null.

I already elaborated on my thoughts on Rob in 157. I'm not scum-reading him. I'm just noting that it's not enough to hand out a free townread. I never said trying hard is a scumtell.

--

Aristophanes 205 is a ton of useless summary and scumreading Vedith for doing the exact same things that Titus was doing.

@Aristophanes

do you think anyone is going to read 61 and change their own personal read on Titus because of it? Because to me it looks like he's clearly poking for a reaction and you're reaching for reasons to justify a scumread.

--

It's been like a day...haha. I was obviously RVS'ing
.

FoS: Ansts guy

So are you gonna vote/ask him questions, or are you just gonna throw out a FoS and disappear?

[GuiltyLion]

This was pretty flip-floppy.
"a lot of scummy", "I didn't like", "poking around to build towncred", but then you say he's Town?
As well as,
"I don't think it's necessarily alignment-indicative" to "he's more likely town than not based on his effort and probability"?
That's kind of contradictory. Explain?

It was "a lot of summary", not "a lot of scummy".

At the time of posting that, I didn't think he was town. I didn't think he was scum. He was null for me. The point I was trying to make was that I saw people townreading him and I disagreed, because I don't think a high volume of posts guarantees town alignment and I didn't like the abrupt change of FoS from Titus to PB.

The reason I hedged with the last sentence is because earlier in my post I was responding to Ari, and he had said:

Can someone e expand on the Rob13 votes for me? That slot seems fine to me. By "efforting too much" do you mean they are trying to appear helpful while not doing so in practice? I have to reread them if so because I didn't get that the first time through.

I didn't want it to sound like I was trying to attack Rob (because I wasn't), and I also don't have a vote on him. I was in a weird spot because this quoted portion of the post is half addressed to me and half not. I was expanding on the "efforting too much" line, but trying to restate that I have much greater suspicions on Ari.

You're right that 'more likely town than not' is contradictory, I didn't mean to imply I was townreading him. I really should have said "I have no significant reasons to believe he is more likely to be scum than any other player". Because in a vacuum, the odds are that any given player is more likely to be town than not.

[GuiltyLion]

@GL, Where's the attempt to sort SW from you if you think my reasons are stupid? When ika and mollie play in games without me, they can be some of the best scumhunters but by doing things that seem illogical or stupid on the surface (but they really aren't). Insulting one method while providing nothing to support it yourself is discouraging sorting SW. The fact you haven't asked her anything since I brought that up makes me wonder, just what are you doing to sort SW?

I have not attempted to sort SW yet. I don't think the things you are doing are stupid, I only think your justification for your conclusion is wrong. SW thinks "scum" includes a hypothetical SK, that doesn't mean she is scum in this game. She never accused you of being SK. I'm not insulting the method, just questioning the conclusion you are drawing from using that method. I can read you as town and still think your push doesn't make sense, town makes misguided pushes/cases all the time.

I will get around to sorting her as the game goes on and it would help if you stopped derailing everything she posts and getting her so aggravated that she tunnels/argues with you. As a bystander to the whole argument between the two of you, there's nothing I see in her posts that helps me sort her and there's nothing I want to ask her about yet. She hasn't done anything in this game so far other than get sucked into arguments with you.

[GuiltyLion]

@GL, Why are you acting like the recent posts by SW and I trying to move past the whole debate are nonexistent and that I am attempting to derail her?

I don't like that you're claiming you'll sort SW, when you'll get around to it. Just who have you sorted? Where?

This is a leading question, at the time of 240 you had recently posted 211 which contained this little jab:

@SW, I will be out most of the day today, so in the rare event you're actually trying to scumhunt and consider alternatives

which again got SW focused on you with 212. Your back-and-forth

after

I posted has been better.

I have sorted you, pistachi0n, and Vedith as townleans. Rob has also moved into my townlean category with consistent defense of me on the subsequent page from my post 240, especially the sequence of 255, 257, 261, and 263. I see no scum-motivation for defending me as his townread and making those points, unless he's trying to play an extremely long game by buddying me and keeping me alive. But if that happens I can revisit the read later this game, for now I think that's a very townie action to take.

I don't find a condition to start scumhunting provided the condition is a reasonable one outside the player's immediate control. I will scumhunt in the future/when I feel like it is worse. With a specific condition, a player can be held accountable. PB is promising to be here tomorrow, and his condition has ended, thus giving rise to holding him accountable.

GL saying that he'll scumhunt later, well guess what it's ever later.

My vote is already on scum right now . Ari is my top scumread and I have questions/accusations towards him that he has not addressed or answered.

In the meantime while Ari is dodging me, I will poke around at different things as they arise and I generally operate by asking questions towards people I want to question and observing everyone else. This is the largest game I've played so far, so keeping track of 12 separate reads is a lot and I don't think it would be productive to be going after every single person. It's a 3-week D1, I'm not gonna have solid reads on everyone just 4 days in. We haven't even had a major wagon yet, though I am glad my Ari wagon is picking up steam.

--

@Boonskies

293 is extremely defensive, why do you care so much that Rob13 called you out for lurking? Which posts from Rob13 are "crap fluff analysis"?

[GuiltyLion]

At the moment, it's more 2) than 1). I had looked into SW with my very first post of substance 127 and felt like 1), but since then I haven't bothered to pay much attention to what she's done beyond that, due to RL things and a couple of other games going on. So it was 1) as of my earlier posts this week, but I haven't thought much about what she's done since then. I'll think about it some now since you asked.

Looking at her ISO briefly, I like the direction of her reads in 281 (other than the fact that we disagree about Titus). Then 298 coupled with the recent flip of opinion on Titus feels pretty town too. GTMH town, but I honestly haven't sat around and reflected on possible deeper scum motivations for her actions and attacked the idea of town!SW in my head yet, which I usually try to do before handing out a stronger townread. It's possible she is scum that tried for an easy mislynch on Titus and gave up when it started getting friction - although I'm not sure she would quit so quickly since 20x100 is starting to more strongly push that lynch. I don't question her Ari vote because she already stated suspicion of him as early as 179, the progression of that read appears natural.

So the gist of my read on SW is she seems town enough for now, so I'm gonna be pursuing my scumleans on Ari and to a lesser extent Boonskiies for the time being.

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - my very first post of substance

137

, not 127.

[GuiltyLion]

@Titus

- GTMH = Gun to my head, yes.

@pistachi0n

, what's terrible about Flubbernugget's posts?

[GuiltyLion]

@GL-Why is Ari scum to you?

In 110 Ari votes for SilverWolf (correcting his original vote for the SilverWolf hydra), stating "my vote and reasons stand". As far as I can tell from 74 and 110, his reasons are:

1. SilverWolf tried to 'pull us back into RVS', which makes no sense, because 34 is offering an initial evaluation of Titus' vote, which can only drive the game forward (as it did).
2. SilverWolf accused Titus of a reach. Ari agrees it's a reach. Why is it scummy to say a vote on you on the 2nd page is a reach?
3. SilverWolf 'accused' Titus of being an SK by bringing up a game where Titus was SK. This has already been beaten to death as boiling down to different definitions of the word "scum". Ari even acknowledges this in 110. So why is SilverWolf scum because she has a different definition of scum?

I raised concerns with the reasoning of points 1 & 3 in 157

None of these three make sense to me as a reason to suspect SilverWolf is scum.

Next, he also sheeps Titus by saying "Titus is making a lot of sense. Can nobody else see this?". A fair number of people have identified that Titus was not really making much sense in pushing scum!SW, me included. So I think he's jumping on a budding wagon and trying to encourage more votes.

I basically voice these concerns in 137 and vote him.

His response is 140, claiming he's '

merely

pointing out logic'. Now this claim is also false, because he threw in a loaded jab at SilverWolf, saying "I see you aren't good at seeing these nuances" (referring to inferred statements). Further, if there was any logic in 110, I just literally do not comprehend it. See above and 157. So I ask him to explain, and he never does.

However, he does take the time to post 205, which is a giant wall of summary, much of it useless. He analyzes RVS votes - why? He has one or two decent points in there, but comes out of it painting Vedith as scummy but keeping his vote on 20x100 for no visible reason. His read on Vedith also confused me, especially this part:

Also, Vedith's 61 is bad and I don't like it. It frames Titus as scum, but badly.

Whereas I look at 61 and see a loaded jabbing question obviously designed to get a reaction. So I ask him:

@Aristophanes do you think anyone is going to read 61 and change their own personal read on Titus because of it? Because to me it looks like he's clearly poking for a reaction and you're reaching for reasons to justify a scumread.

And then he hasn't posted since, giving me no reason to move my vote elsewhere.

Also this worthless WIFOM post is annoying:

I have a feeling I'm gonna look scummy this game. Just forewarning you.
Maybe I like leading everyone rong, though.

Like, if his town game is to "merely point out logic", then he shouldn't be worried at all about appearing scummy. What is the town motivation to making this post? Overall his pushes/cases have had no apparent logic, and that's why I think he is scum.

[GuiltyLion]

I am trying to get some sort of engagement on my scumreads but I am not getting any analytical thought but from Rob.

Yo if you want to have a discussion, fire away. I'd be happy for you to move your scumreading focus to actual scum

Also flubbernugget is a townlean for me. Prolapsed_Brain is starting to look worse with his lack of content, I have no idea where he's at. Flubbernugget doesn't post much explanation but the reads/callouts/vote he has made all look town-motivated from where I'm sitting.

[GuiltyLion]

I actually want to talk about 20/100(who has been parking) Vedith (who I though was pretty town early but his recent posting fell off), and ASP.

20x100

has been passively making reads but not driving the game forward in anyway. Seems like coasting to me. Reads are scum Titus, town SW, guilty, pistachio, and boon. They're easy reads and there hasn't been much push to develop them. Null-scum here. I'd like an explanation on this:

There's a weird interaction going on between rob/titus which I want to keep an eye on

Probably someone I would want to push on more, but has gotten lost in a lot of the noise.

Vedith

I still think is town for the early posting. He's tunneling onto his scumreads now and ignoring everything else. He's pushing you for reasons he stated in 383 - I can understand where he's coming from but he needs to explain them in greater detail before I'm gonna buy his case. I feel like you've addressed his point #1 adequately (Ari is inactive sitewide), and point #3 is useless without specific posts referenced. Plus he acknowledged he is willing to switch to Ari. I wouldn't want to lynch Vedith as of now, but he's someone I would revisit after flips and relational tells and more information.

ASP

has posted literally nothing. I would prefer him to replace if he's not going to post content. I wouldn't oppose lynching him, but it would be straight up a policy lynch which probably works out to be anti-town in the end.

Also, generally, I don't think vote parking is scummy in D1, it's just playstyle. I tend to play similarly as town. I want a hard reason to move my vote - either someone is definitively scummier, or my scumread has convinced me that my feelings about them are wrong.

[GuiltyLion]

@20x100 what's your case on Titus?

[GuiltyLion]

I would like to hear from 20x100. 200 posts ago it was a weak case based on meta, I want to see if it's changed or if they have anything better. I read the ISO last night when I answered you about a read on 20x100, now I'm trying to push on them a bit more since Ari is probably gonna get replaced.

[GuiltyLion]

there's a lot to catch-up on in this game, I just caught up on my two other games, and I don't think I have the energy at the moment to give this game a fair response/update. So I promise that I will dedicate my time to this by EOD Friday. I might have updated reads by tomorrow but I'm working and then going out that evening so I won't be able to post a bunch of huge walls or anything. For now, trying to digest the miller claim, it seems plausible so I'm going to

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

just got here, catchup coming in a bit

[GuiltyLion]

My last substantial post was 501, starting from there:

-ASP enters, mostly straightforward reads but the Hieirama push stands out as Hieirama has been skirting attention up to this point. Hieirama posts in reply but the defense seems weak, like she points out a contradiction in Rob's posting history but doesn't really use it to make a read on his alignment and softly defends herself. ASP comes out looking more town here.
-Big catch up from Aristo. Makes good points about Rob, acknowledges less certainty in his SW read and I like most of 512 - some nuanced points here about the odd confirm post 138 from the hydra - it was an unusual post, although Ari's certainly reading a lot into it. I was scumleaning him early because I thought he was making far too big of a deal about small/trivial things in the early game, but it's becoming a consistent pattern, which indicates it may just be playstyle. Combine that with believable miller crumb and I don't really have any more reason to suspect this slot for now.
-Ah, Rob says pretty much the same thing in 531. More townpoints for Rob.
-538 is very weak from Hieirama - did you really get a townread off of P_B from that one tiny post?
-PB arrives(?) but Titus makes a push on Flubbernugget instead. I don't understand this - Titus why didn't you talk to PB while you had the chance?
-pistachi0n makes an amazing point in 546 - let's all remember this, everyone. It'll be important later.
-

I REALLY DO NOT LIKE THE PUSH FOR FLAVOR

- if scum have an ability to 'convert' but it only works for a certain/a few people, this is an easy way to find them person. Flavor doesn't tell you anything about alignment and just felt like BS from wgeurts to me.
-I'm liking the cases/push on PB, he definitely needs to be posting more.

Oh hey, he has questions for me:

I'm curious why you thought one player could read another player's mind to answer why a vote was placed. Also, yes, scum could benefit, slightly I suppose, from looking town so early, but this is just Rob. That's how he plays.

Titus seemed convinced that Rob was town, I was trying to show her that I was not the only one who doubted this conviction. pistachi0n's vote was obviously not an RVS vote, so it's clear she had suspicion on him. I wanted Titus to acknowledge this fact, not literally explain to me what pistachion's reasons were.

-More TvT between Titus and SW. Yawn. Btw Titus I'm leaning town on SW now, I can explain it in detail if you want me to but for now I'll leave it at that.
-611 from Rob, thank you thank you thank you.
-pistachi0n also calls out the flavor thing. More townpoints for pistachi0n.
-wgeurts senses this suspicion from pistachi0n, and asks the mod a gigantic bolded question that he should have considered well before asking for flavor. This seems like a retroactive attempt to justify his bizarre flavor request.

Then we get to my prodge. Catchup on the rest coming shortly.

[GuiltyLion]

-So wgeurts' case itself in 625, I don't think it's telling. Yes, her push on SW was terrible and had a lot of manipulation/made-up motivation for SW's posts. It was a misunderstanding over whether SW was accusing Titus of being SK, and Titus reacted strongly to get reactions. I'm not really a fan of the WIFOM "lynch-me-to-see-I'm-right" follow up post either.
-I need to figure out what to make of PB scumreading wgeurts. independently, I think the two of them are fairly scummy, but I'm not sure I believe in a bus this early. Haven't resolved how I feel about this yet.

I think that GL asking Titus why pistachio voted you was a way to get Titus to do the heavy lifting, and GL to take credit and/or assimilate Titus' read into their own. It's just lazy, and scum are far lazier than town, IME.

Already answered this, but I really just wanted Titus to acknowledge that Rob is not a universal townread and it's entirely reasonable to still be suspicious of him 4 pages in or whenever that was. What do you think of my subsequent developments on my Rob read? In fact, you assigning me a scumread for this but then not bothering to address any of my posts beyond that is pinging me as scum-motivated.

-LOL, PogChamp (my avatar) at 672. Not alignment-indicative but I actually outwardly laughed at that.
-Boonskiies is just all over the place. You say wgeurts is town but then you later vote on 20x100 with literally no explanation? I've been trying to avoid scumreading this slot because of the implosion and the trust-tell, but you need to try harder.
-Rob makes a fair point about the growing 20x100 wagon and Titus' quick defense of it feels a little off. Why are PB's recent contributions town, Titus?
-Jesus am I the only reading both Titus and SW as town?
-727 tho... great point. I gotta chew on that one and keep it in mind. I think Titus is still rather sure SW is scum but not 100%, which could explain the inconsistency in attitude towards the slot that Rob called out. But it does look bad.

Still think most of the feud is miscommunication/tunnel vision rather than genuine scum motivation from either party. SW, I think Titus is pushing you so hard because she's convinced herself you're scum.

Updated reads

:
roughly descending order, not precisely exact but should essentially reflect my confidence overall. They aren't grouped in explicit tiers but rather benchmarks of how I feel once you get to those names

Most likely town

Rob
pistachi0n
Silver Wolf
Titus

Probably town

Flubbernugget
Vedith
Ari

Not enough yet to think they're town

A Simple Plan
Boonskiies

Scum

Hieirama
wgeurts/hydra
Prolapsed Brain

VOTE: Prolapsed Brain, but I wouldn't mind lynching the hydra today. Just staying off it because it's too early for a lynch.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm phoneposting right now and will bring more content at lunch today hopefully.

Vedith you are confused - we do not have a completed game together where I was scum. Was this an honest mistake, did you mistake me for another player?

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this game, but if you are using this 'past game' for a meta read on me then that mistake needs to be sorted.

PB, you didn't answer my question - what do you think of the development of my read on Rob and what does that tell you about my alignment?

I have no real new thoughts on SW vs Titus and it's annoying that it has dominated the game to the extent that it has. My townlean on Titus comes from the fact that I have seen her scumhunt outside of SW (including a healthy suspicion of me) and because I don't think scum would be so bold as to continually push SilverWolf when it's not getting traction. Like, we have people scumreading her for it and forming opposite-alignment preflip associatives. That's not good for scum!Titus and her actions seem more likely to be coming from aggressive town pushing a scumread.

Still confident in my scumreads from my past post, seen nothing new there.

[GuiltyLion]

I think your read wasn't really "developed" at all; as shown above, you were ambiguous, and null, and wishy-washy up until your post 759, when Rob suddenly became very decisive town. I think it reeks of trying to force a read onto a player, and there's only two reasons I can think of for someone to do that: They're lazy town, or they're scum.

Which are you?

K, so you completely missed the most critical part of my read in 309:

Rob has also moved into my townlean category with consistent defense of me on the subsequent page from my post 240, especially the sequence of 255, 257, 261, and 263. I see no scum-motivation for defending me as his townread and making those points, unless he's trying to play an extremely long game by buddying me and keeping me alive. But if that happens I can revisit the read later this game, for now I think that's a very townie action to take.

when you said:

In 309 you ask Boon about Rob, but supply no further read yourself.

I'm inclined to think this is just a mistake rather than scum blatantly ignoring something I said in order to paint me as scummy. If I wanted to assume you were scum for this and push my read to other players, I could say something like "

it reeks of trying to force a read on a player

". But the main point here is that you need to pay more attention if you're town and want to help win this game.

[GuiltyLion]

Why have you asked several people how their opinion of you has changed based on your read of me? Why do you care about their opinion of you?

I know that I am town, so when looking at the reads that someone is making, their read on me is the one where I can best discern whether it's honest assessment of my play or coming from an informed position. I don't really care what their opinion of me is, I care how they arrived at it. I have no problem with Titus scumreading me for the things she called out, as I could follow her thought process, but PB's attack here is simply incorrect, and now I can watch what happens when I point out that he is wrong.

Also, I believe PB is the only person I've asked this question, and I'm asking because his initial scumread of me was due to when I null-read you and asked Titus to consider why pistachi0n was voting you, several hundred posts ago.

[GuiltyLion]

@Rob - I asked Prolapsed_Brain the same question in 759 because I was responding to 661.

But I can see how it reads like I was asking Titus. That's a phrasing problem on my part, it was directed at Prolapsed_Brain, and now I also understand why he ignored/missed it the first time.

[GuiltyLion]

@GL-why is pista a townread for you?

116 summed up exactly how I felt about initial Titus vs. SW, while I didn't fully agree with the Rob vote I saw town-motivation where it was coming from.

I'll have to go back and reread the sequence of events and the gamestate at the time of her Flubbernugget push, but it didn't initially strike me as scummy because he had been posting very minimally when she voted him. 407 and 412 directed at Rob struck me as town trying to advocate for more pressure rather than scum trying to advocate for a mislynch.

Switch to wgeurts also read as genuine and I have the exact same reasons for suspecting that slot as 619.

Don't know why scum would post 761, it's one of those posts that doesn't say much in terms of effort but I highly value as a town post because it's a simple point that I think scum is more likely to forget to make. It also came somewhat immediately after 755, at a time before others had expressed similar views. Same thoughts on 875.

So it's mostly in that we share the same thought processes on SW-Titus feud, I fully agree with her case/vote on wgeurts, and there have been a few notable small points in her posts that I think scum wouldn't make. While the content is small compared to others in this game (Titus, Rob, etc), I see absolutely nothing that pings me as scum-motivated. Obviously I could drum up a bunch of reasons to doubt myself and go down the rabbit hole of "if this is what I expect town to look like, scum would optimally play to look like this", but overall I see town motivation in everything she's done while many others this game have managed to look scummier. A full readslist from her would help, but I have no problem with her position on the wgeurts/hydra/vonflare wagon.

For the record, I'm also still fully okay with lynching the 20x100/wgeurts/vonflare slot, as I've said before. It's funny how none of the three players posting for it (wgeurts, hydra, vonflare) have struck me as town. My vote isn't on it since it was at L-2 earlier and we have a week to deadline and I haven't seen a VC in several hundred posts, but you all can consider me on that wagon as well if you want.

[GuiltyLion]

Ah, thank you for updating that.

Not Voting (2): Hieirama, Aristophanes, SilverWolf, Vonflare

this is a problem with the current gamestate IMO. Especially since I have scumreads on Hieirama (who needs replacement) and Vonflare. I don't want to consider moving my vote until I see where some of these votes go.

[GuiltyLion]

Hey all, I claim investigator with a guilty on Titus.

Probably means vonflare is town, PB is likely scum as well.

VOTE: Titus

[GuiltyLion]

Ari, I don't understand your question? I investigated Titus as my night action and found out she is not town.

[GuiltyLion]

Not sure why my flavor would make my claim more or less believable, but sure.

Name is Charles Miller. My ability is I can investigate someone once a night to find out if they are guilty. However, I've also searched all over the internet which means my search history is suspicious, therefore anyone who checks me out will think I'm guilty.

(This means I'm also a miller. I decided not to claim because I didn't want to claim the cop part of my role immediately, and I figured claiming miller would attract a bunch of unnecessary attention and instead I could just let my play would speak for itself. Then you also claimed miller - which makes sense, since Boonskiies and I were cops - so I figured just never to bring it up).

Extra miscellaneous info says that I already knew who's really guilty of things, and that I know about a secret government conspiracy to create Facebook to spy on people.

Also, this was my night 1 action, as it was the first night. Get your head in the game man

Flubber - I got "not town". Which is weird because my role pm said I would get 'guilty' results.

[GuiltyLion]

Prolapsed_Brain, so you're choosing to blatantly defend your scumbuddy? Nice

I didn't even look at Boonskiies role PM until Flubber mentioned it, but now I see we basically have the exact same role.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think she would have said my claim is fake if she was a Miller. Otherwise she'd have claimed it and I would be conftown to her.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not sure if this means vote titus or means you fucked up a fakeclaim

vote Titus. It probably means Jingle is just lazy, I got my investigation result PM a minute after I got my Day 2 start PM.

Seriously why would I make this up? If I were scum, I'd get a mislynch on Titus today and then immediately get lynched the next day, I see no reason why scum!me would do that when I've been relatively unpressured this whole game. If Titus and I were scumpartners, there'd be no need to bus immediately on D2 when it's currently 7v3.

[GuiltyLion]

@Flubber - No, I haven't.

[GuiltyLion]

Ah okay, makes sense. It was only a four word PM and it came a minute after the day 2 start PM, so I assumed he just wrote it immediately after sending out the main one.

[GuiltyLion]

mmm I appreciate the math, but this is a bastard game, it's possible that someone could change alignment, and there is a confirmed miller + 2 additional miller claims.

Plus I am the second cop so from my angle it's 100% chance that there are two cops

[GuiltyLion]

How is Boonskiies Role PM "You're certain that anyone looking into your past will think you're involved in just about anything they're looking for" not miller?

I think you're making that up about your role PM. On the slim chance that you're not, that's basically what's in Boonskiies PM and my PM as well, which would make it 3 miller claims, and would make me largely worthless.

But I doubt town!Titus would see that in her PM and disregard it completely. Seems like you're flailing.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm here. I'll read stuff when I get a chance.

Quick answer to Aristophanes' question, I think the question you asked regarding Titus being implicated or cleared by SW's death is a rather scum-minded question because it tests the waters more on a Titus wagon instead of pushing one way or the other. It's a setup question that instinctually implicates Titus in a framing sort of manner.

Based upon that, I'm more inclined to believe Titus is town.

Hold up, you're saying because Aristophanes asked a potentially scum-minded question, you're ignoring my cop claim with guilty on Titus? How does Ari asking that question clear Titus at all?

[GuiltyLion]

Still like PB as scum and then ASP or Mastin for the other

[GuiltyLion]

I investigated Mastin2 last night, but that doesn't help us.

I'm not sure what to make of two nights in a row of two NKs. Titus' posts make me think the SilverWolf kill yesterday was unexpected for her. Ari kill makes more sense to me coming from a vig than scum.

VOTE: Prolapsed Brain

[GuiltyLion]

Ari kill makes more sense to me coming from a vig than scum.

Why

He claimed miller, mastin2 (confirmed town) was throwing some shade on him, his way of playing along with his ISO contain posts that ping me as 'could be scum'. Obviously now he's confirmed town, but I think he's someone that it'd be easy to bullshit a case on.

On the other hand, killing him doesn't really tell us anything about the gamestate and there was no chance he was getting healed, so maybe he was a safe kill.

I think partially I also just want there to be a vig because two NKs every night means town is at serious risk of losing if we ML today.

[GuiltyLion]

Ah not sure how I feel about that essentially naked vote from pistachi0n. I haven't had much time to revisit this game in the past few days, but PB gathered some scrutiny on D1 and was 'shielded' to a degree by Titus. I wanted to put some pressure on him to start the day and he didn't wow me with a one-liner about how vonflare is scummy, when that was also Titus' main desired lynch.

I don't have much time today, but tomorrow I might go through Titus' ISO and highlight the parts where she soft defends him in a way that thinks they might be partners. And his reaction to my claim was pretty scummy as well, IMO.

[GuiltyLion]

Okay, first there's this interaction, between conftown and confscum:

If Titus ever flips scum, we lynch P_B next for sure.

@Rob, why are you drawing relationship tells between me and PB if they are useless Preflip?

Next, Titus' read progression on PB throughout D1:

As for PB or Pistachio, I could do either of those.

Scumread

What's the difference between PB, saying he'll scumhunt once the drama is gone versus GL saying he'll scumhunt when he feels like it?

Redirecting focus from PB to me.

Rob's a theory poster like me. I highly doubt he's scum here. Sure, I can't be one hundred percent certain as little things nag me (I don't get his stance on why PB is worse than GL and little logical inconsistencies like that)

Again, trying to get Rob to focus me instead of PB.

VOTE: PB

Fine with this now as the specified time for PB has passed.

This feels like a distancing vote, as the PB wagon wasn't going anywhere at this point. It's followed up with a vote on Flubber basically 100 posts later, and PB never posted in between.

Here's another couple of posts from a conftown, SW:

PB is lining up lynches. If either Pista or Titus flips scum, he's got me set up to be lynched next.

Jesus Fucking Christ.

I want [PB] lynched ASAP.

Immediately followed by:

@SW, why does PB asking about your meta make you want to lynch him?

Your hypocrisy in argument regarding his recent posting, your revival of PB. I was there for days. Rob and I pushed hard for it. It was a dead wagon. Now you're just trying to kill wgeurts wagon. If you felt PB was scum, you would have jumped on sooner.

Look through your ISO can we tell if associative reads are bad (only for PB but not you or Vedith), quick fast reads are bad (only for PB, and that was in response to my question of course they aren't fleshed, they are gut), asking for meta is wrong (only for PB, not Rob when he's asked us multiple times).

You get defensive and jump down the throat of anyone accusing you as scum. You have two sets of standards. One for you and one for everyone else.

That hypocrisy is why you've made a PB wagon wholly unappetizing.

This speaks for itself. SW (conftown) starting to push PB makes PB not an appealing lynch to Titus, despite her 'scumread' of him earlier.

4) PB, The only thing scummy from him is the broken promise but he's here when pressure is on him.

Now he's a townread once Rob/SW are starting to push him.

[GuiltyLion]

If you look at PB's read on Titus v. SW, he never said if they were both scum or both town, only that they "share" an alignment. Pretty convenient position for scum, eh? If SW gets lynched and flips town, well now Titus is town and he doesn't want to lynch her. If Titus is lynched and flips scum, now SW was bussing and he can get a mislynch on her.

@Vedith - this is my first game with Titus.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't see any rush to hammer, especially since PB hasn't really posted any defense at all. Take your time and feel better, ASP.

[GuiltyLion]

D1 Titus fights with Silver all day, Rob obvtowns, boonskiies is modkilled, both Silver and Rob die N1
D2 I claim cop with guilty on Titus, she is lynched and flips alien janitor. Ari the miller claim and Mastin die N2
D3 you are put to L-1 because of PB acting scummy and Titus distancing/defending you and because everyone else has been largely town. Vonflare/wgeurts/20x100 ISO is scummy but has towncred because Titus was pushing that wagon.

That's basically it.

[GuiltyLion]

wgeurts/vonflare also pushed Titus D1, along with Vedith. So if you're town then scum probably lies somewhere in Pistachi0n, Flubber, ASP, unless we had a ton of D1 bussing.

[GuiltyLion]

It was active up until about D3 when it died due to your slot lurking/replacing out. So I'm starting to feel a bit uneasy about this wagon because no one has qualms against it.

I'd give you better answers but I'm phone posting at work on my lunch break. I'm technically "investigator", my role PM says I get "guilty" results but then my PM on Titus just said "not town". I have pretty much the exact same role as boonskiies if you look at his flip

[GuiltyLion]

Also Titus seemed genuinely surprised by double kill, possibly slipping that she thinks it was a vig, but, you know, WIFOM

[GuiltyLion]

I can compile Titus reads later. She was fency about your slot but started defending it once dead conftowns started pushing it

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE: for now to avoid quick hammer, but still wary of this slot

[GuiltyLion]

Be a little bit careful about the '2' number because at least one role can possibly change wincon.

[GuiltyLion]

cop and a miller iirc

when they check in they can probably confirm my memory

yeah, miller cop. Same exact role as Boonskiies, our PMs are very similar.

ETL how do you plan on confirming yourself?

pista any thoughts on ASP's case on you?

If vonflare is scum then I think he is the third party scum, I seriously doubt he and Titus were partners.

[GuiltyLion]

I need to gather my thoughts on pista/vonflare pushes, will post something more substantial within next couple of hours

[GuiltyLion]

So I waited a bit on the initial case on pistachi0n in 1174, I don't find it that convincing and I had pistachi0n as a townread on D1. I had doubts about Rob in the beginning of D1 too, though he quickly won me over in the 250s. And her read on Titus kinda mirrored mine as well, I had SW v. Titus as TvT but wasn't 100% sure on Titus, which is why I investigated her N1.

However, her response in 1197 and ASP's follow up 1200 is a bit more compelling. The push on Flubber was always bad, but then pistachi0n moved to 20x100/wgeurts/vonflare slot.

ASP, what's your read on that slot?

Vedith

, you ignored vonflare's 1181, and I want a response to that as well.

Not liking ETL's claim that she can confirm herself and subsequent dodge of all inquiries about that. Seems like something she'd say to make people feel like she's town without really doing any of the work for it. And the vote on vonflare is a bit unjustified from her as it stands.

[GuiltyLion]

I gave my reasoning for it right away, GL - he was D1 counterwagon to town. Not sure how that got dropped.

You are the 'town' that he was counterwagon for. How do I know that you're town? I'll hunt through your ISO for where you confirmed but I'm missing it right now.

So you believe he's 3rd party scum?

[GuiltyLion]

Ah sorry Vedith, I somehow missed that on reread.

@Flubber I have no idea. Maybe one of the scum gets an innocent investigative result or maybe my reads are bad.

[GuiltyLion]

I'd feel a lot better about voting vonflare if we knew whether ETL was town or not, but I don't think this 'I confirmed myself' play comes from scum? It's kinda baffling to me I feel like I'm missing something important.

@Vedith no, I checked mastin last night.

[GuiltyLion]

I wanted to check mastin because I already had mild suspicion on that slot and if it were scum I'd expect her to be a tough lynch to get without a guilty.

I don't like pistachion wagon, I don't feel like the reasons against her are strong. If ETL says she can confirm herself then I'll give it a day.

VOTE: vonflare

[GuiltyLion]

you can speculate about me if you want but I'll die tonight so it won't matter in the end

[GuiltyLion]

okay so I guess ASP was the Alien kill and ETL was the third party kill.

I tried to investigate pistachi0n last night but I was roleblocked, probably by ETL.

I still like Flubber for town but as for 3P scum between Vedith and pistachi0n, I have no idea.

[GuiltyLion]

actually Flubber is officially conftown as well

[GuiltyLion]

or as close to "official" as it gets

[GuiltyLion]

There were two kills on N2.

Start of N3:

Also someone tried to roleblock me

Someone RB'd cannot submit any actions, therefore you couldn't have made a kill on N2.

The only way you are not conftown is if Alien team did not submit a jail action on N2 and you predicted that there was an RB'er in the game and claimed roleblocked as cover. I'm figuring that's so unlikely that it's not worth considering.

[GuiltyLion]

ebwop - start of D3.

[GuiltyLion]

I think the Alien team was just two people, Titus and ETL, looking at ETL's PM. And plus the person roleblocked can't die either, since they are jailed.

[GuiltyLion]

If you think I am a cop then why are you voting me?

Your role sounds like a flavor cop type of thing. I don't think it's alignment indicative one way or the other.

[GuiltyLion]

Like it confirms Vedith is not an alien but I think we are hunting for 3P scum today. Which is hard for me because 3P is basically town only with NKs, in terms of the information they have.

[GuiltyLion]

So then what do you think of Flubber claiming to be roleblocked on N2?

[GuiltyLion]

But how would he know there is a JK in the game, and how would he know he wouldn't get CC'd by someone else also claiming RB'd?

[GuiltyLion]

Flubber is 99% town IMO. ETL's role PM makes it sound like the Alien team was just two people, and I cannot believe Flubber prematurely invented the RB claim to clear himself, he has no way of knowing JK existed as a role and that no one else would claim RB'd. And his play all game has looked town.

Pista's push on him makes no sense but I don't know if it comes from desperate scum or confused town. Pistachi0n why aren't you considering Vedith as 3rd party scum?

Flubber who is your pick for scum right now? Does this pistachi0n push feel genuine to you?

[GuiltyLion]

It's basically guaranteed the scum is 3P given the ETL death and two kills per night all game with no one claiming vig. So Vedith being afraid of aliens just means he's not alien faction.

[GuiltyLion]

Game kinda feels like a tossup to me as I have no idea how to read difference between solo 3P scum and town. At some point I will look over D1 again for clues. Leaning towards scum!pistachi0n but why would scum have flavor cop ability?

[GuiltyLion]

@Flubber - I think it could be either, which is frustrating as I don't know how to meaningfully advance a read on someone in MYLO. You summed it up well with respect to Vedith and never having a read on him. I gave him towncred for voteparking on Titus but neither player has done anything to make an impression on this game.

pistachi0n is making no sense but I'm almost inclined to think that it comes from town. Scum should be more careful with presenting a cogent narrative.

[GuiltyLion]

@pistachi0n because I'm pretty sure we're looking for third party scum here, like I keep saying.

[GuiltyLion]

Like if we're gonna randomly flavorspec then I wouldn't be surprised if Vedith is a SK who is so afraid of aliens invading the town that he's killing everyone he's suspicious of.

[GuiltyLion]

ISOing SW points to Vedith as scum as well. We know she was the 3P NK because Aliens cleaned Rob. She was starting to suspect Vedith but had pistachi0n as a townread.

[GuiltyLion]

Vedith, is pistachi0n's result on you correct? What do you think about scum having a flavor cop ability?

[GuiltyLion]

You're town bomb? What is that?

[GuiltyLion]

Did you crumb it or anything?

[GuiltyLion]

Vedith is lying, I have contradictory information

What is the contradictory information? Share it now because this is MYLO

[GuiltyLion]

She has mine right, but I already posted it earlier when I full claimed. Flubber didn't mention his being wrong but I'd like him to confirm that to be sure

[GuiltyLion]

okay reasons I'm suspicious of Vedith:

-SilverWolf NK night 1 - SilverWolf was starting to hint at a Vedith scumread in her later posts. Vedith dismisses me pointing this out as he can "just push her as scum" if he were scum, but I think he'd rather just avoid the spotlight altogether.

-Aristophanes, another NK, was also indicating thoughts of scum!Vedith throughout his ISO.

-Vedith caught on very quickly to a possible scumslip by Titus talking about setup spec as to whether it was 10v3 or 10v2v1. I think as a 1 3P scum, he would be more prone to identify that kind of slip. He didn't push it explicitly for this reason, but re-reading his ISO it looks like he was aware that she knew the Alien faction was only 2 players.

-bomb claim doesn't make sense, in hindsight - so he's town that counterkills scum attacking him? How is that balanced? Would make sense if he killed anyone who targeted him, but he specifically clarified that it's only people who try to kill him. If I investigated him and got a clear, he'd be conftown throughout that can't be NK'd without the scum losing.

-AtE at the end here... if I "lose it for town" then I apologize, but I don't see the value in pre-emptively blaming me instead of coming up with a better case on pistachi0n.

[GuiltyLion]

Flubber can you confirm that pistachi0n is not lying about you being afraid of banks?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Vedith

[GuiltyLion]

Wait, really? I thought she had it right and you were trying to discredit

[GuiltyLion]

gg everyone! Thanks for modding Jingle, this was a ton of fun throughout and I love the flavors in the PMs.

[GuiltyLion]

Silver, your ISO was extremely helpful as the game went on. You were pushing Titus, PB(/ETL), and had suspicion on Vedith too - all spot on reads

[GuiltyLion]

I think ETL did a great job on replacing in too - after we lynched vonflare and she flipped scum, I kept kicking myself thinking how on earth did she talk me out of lynching that slot. The "I confirmed myself" trick is a good one, I'll have to remember that for future games

[GuiltyLion]

also Vedith, this is three completed games with you as scum and you voted me first in every single one! I know your scumtell now

[GuiltyLion]

were there dead/alien threads?

[GuiltyLion]

hahah the reason I copped mastin was because I had a light scumread on the slot she replaced into, and I thought she was buddying me hard. I figured if she were scum then she'd be impossible to lynch and if I knew she was conftown it'd be straightforward to read the rest of the game since PB was probably gonna get lynched the next day anyway.

in hindsight it was a bad choice because if she were town, she was a risk to get NK'd, but I had my reasons! I was most afraid of scum!mastin manipulating me.