Mini 1730: Suikoden U-Pick GAME OVER

[Reasonably Rational]

Hello All,

Lots of people we likes on the player list. A warm hello to some of you I haven't played with for awhile. I don't have a tremendous amount of time just now as the wife has an unusually scheduled day off and we've got plans for the evening. I am unsure whether Cerb will be around at all. I only skimmed, but it looked like we are out of RVS already. Sorry we missed it. Looking forward to what should be an interesting game.

Love and Happiness,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@mod:

This head of the hydra will be V/LA for an undefined period. An uncle suffered a devastating stroke yesterday and is unlikely to survive. I will need to be arranging things so that I can travel and do not yet have a timeframe. I'm sure Cerb will hold the fort while I'm away.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Hello all. Elbirn, do you still claim you're scum?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Lmao. Well done Titus.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I am the psychic psycho.

I want your thoughts. I respect your catching of me in Stevens Universe. I haven't seen your behavior be like that. It's a problem to me.

Thanks Titus! <3 I've been busy. Got in trouble at work for phone posting, so I won't be able to do the whole hanging out all day thing that I used to do...I'll just read the game then, and that's what's happened. I feel like todays been super fucking weird. Elbirn scum claim on P1? RVS that all piled up on you? Like, I feel there has to be significance to that, but I don't know it. The rest of the crap going on, the interactions between Jeanne, yourself, elbirn, and whoever the hell else has been talking, I semi-skimmed as I was reading, and I'm going to have to reread all of it again to give you anything of any value.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

you're being demanding Titus and I really just wanna sit here and watch some youtube and play some games for a bit. I'll reread this and give you my thoughts before I go to sleep tonight, k?

Oh, and unrelated, eh, mind if I pm you asking a simple question RE: CA highway code? You're the only lawyer I know who's licensed to practice in my state. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OKay. I reread the thread titus. It's all day 1 bullshit. Beyond Elbirns scum claim and ranger marking wgeurts. I'm fond of being cautious of wagons myself, so Suzune urging caution is fine, but I don't know what she's afraid will happen. Worst case scenario is a bomb type role, I guess, some sort of mass bomb with some member of the scum team hoping to kill everyone, but like, eh, guys, that's a fucking ridiculous role.

SO yeah, Suzune, what are you afraid of seeing happen if we lynch elbirn as he has requested?

Let me see, what else. LQ is weird. I don't understand him, he unfortunately reminds me of thefuzzylogic in his not following what's going on or not putting things together the same way when he sees them as other people do. That makes him really hard to read.

Umm. Yeah that's it. Titus is Titus. You have a role that's interesting in some way, so now you've claimed you have a role of some sort. The fact that you did so means you suspect this game is role madness, and so your claim is meaningless, or it means your role hurts scum if they shoot you, or it means you're a vt who wants to draw a NK. The third is unlikely, you're Titus, you're better later in the game, you wouldn't deliberate try to draw a NK, especially knowing you're also lynchbait in the sense that people will just kinda lynch you for no reason, so you have a high chance of living to said later game if you can avoid those nooses.

Alrighty. Gonna PM you now Titus.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Titus

We should lynch her before she goes all VCA on us.

Silly stupid RVS.

PokerFace here, I never played suikoden so I will be wiki-ing flavor stuff as needed

@Elbirn,

who are your scum buddies?

Null, Elbirn claimed he was scum, the question doesn't mean anything.

VOTE: Titus

We should lynch her before she goes all VCA on us.

Yeah so actually

This is a really good vote, and relies on

1. Removing a useless tool that can be manipulated by scum
2. Knowing that titus will utilise said tool regardless of alignment

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

FTFY

Probably not planning to sign posts unless people get

really

salty about it. I'm interested to see if people can tell us apart. This is actually my first time hydrating so i'm quite excited.

Also, sorry to hear that Drixx, you're having a rough year.

I hate this because he changed the quote without highlighting the changes he made, forcing me to go back and read the original post, which defeats the point of quoting something. I hate you blackest magick. Like seriously, don't do that ever again.

I don't see anything significant in the exchange though. Elbirn and BM both have valid points.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb; please pick this up in the hydra. I just wanted it to be super clear for folks that you will be without me to chat with (those who didn't play SU with us may want to look at our hydra chat PT from that game to get an idea of what that means).

My Uncle succumbed to the impacts of his stroke this afternoon. I'll be driving through the night tomorrow and spending time with family and am unlikely to be back until at least midweek next week, at the very soonest.

Cerb is awesomesauce™ but already I have seen Titus applying the standard of our play from SU onto him and he's basically by himself while I handle RL stuff. Apologies to the game for the disruption. Have a little extra fun in the game for my sake, yeah?

Hydra pickup for Drixx.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Where? Buzzwords aren't enough.

You're asking questions and being active and pushing what you think is Scummy.

Why are you disagreeing with me on this?

It just looks like a tunnel with no substance that you are pushing because you think I'm Scum and you're wrong.

Buddying test.

You said I'm gamesolvey but now tunnelling with no substance?

I recommend just...just not trying Titus. Between the two of you you guys WILL blow this thread up and it will do NOTHING to help us figure out either of your alignments.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Where? Buzzwords aren't enough.

You're asking questions and being active and pushing what you think is Scummy.

Why are you disagreeing with me on this?

It just looks like a tunnel with no substance that you are pushing because you think I'm Scum and you're wrong.

Buddying test.

You said I'm gamesolvey but now tunnelling with no substance?

I recommend just...just not trying Titus. Between the two of you you guys WILL blow this thread up and it will do NOTHING to help us figure out either of your alignments.

-Cerb

Why so many suppositions here? 1) Assumes who LQ is 2) Assumes that I can't wind down conflict if protown? 3) Assumes that if LQ was town, I couldn't see that

Plus this Garcias an outright contradiction.

All I'm saying, Titus, is you both tend to post a lot. That's all. I don't know where you get 1) from though. but 2/3 are things I'm wholly ignorant of.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

In a previous Varsoon game, a player had the ability to target everyone currently voting for him, with the effect of blocking all of their abilities even NK for the rest of the day and 1 night. Wasn't his only ability. He was town aligned.
~Yukari

Now that is a valid reason to be wary.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Jeanne: wtf? EVERYONE CLAIMS TOWN. Some of them are scum. Like, your statement is meaningless, and you're doing even worse things than just thinking past events control current ones...you're not even drawing the parallels between the play of the same player. Transferring suspicion onto LQ for claiming to be town with no proof (WHICH ALMOST NO ONE CAN PROVIDE) because TITUS in another game claimed town with no proof is insane.

Titus: So....you came to a conclusion about me it would seem?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Nah, I've played with titus scum recently and it's not this. I believe in the power of my gut, she town breh.

Nice try doe

I've also played with titus scum recently, and I believe your gut is stupid and dismissive of her when it shouldn't be.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wow, 3 of my four major scumreads engaging in collective OMGUS. Go ahead and wagon me. I know your evil play.

RR, conclusion is strong but let's just say I have a healthy suspicion of you.

*sigh*

[Reasonably Rational]

Jeanne: wtf? EVERYONE CLAIMS TOWN. Some of them are scum. Like, your statement is meaningless, and you're doing even worse things than just thinking past events control current ones...you're not even drawing the parallels between the play of the same player. Transferring suspicion onto LQ for claiming to be town with no proof (WHICH ALMOST NO ONE CAN PROVIDE) because TITUS in another game claimed town with no proof is insane.

Titus: So....you came to a conclusion about me it would seem?

-Cerb

Maybe, but I suspect everyone in this game. I trust no one. No one. Not unless they give me a reason to.

No maybe. It is the truth, period. What I said is correct, what you said is fucking insane. You should suspect everyone, you're playing terribly if you're not doing that, but the thought process you're using with regards to LQ is laughably wrong.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi guys. I'm off work. So eh, I missed more nonsense? Cool. Suzune, your response to my post, which doesn't take into account the fact that within the thread a valid reason for being cautious of an elbirn wagon, is noted.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I like you. Are you an alt?

No, but I'm not a newb. I've been playing mafia for five years on my home site. (Sorry, no links. There's information I consider personal on there that I don't trust you all with yet.)

Why?

"can" in this case means "it's possible, worth observing". It's not really a read as much as a possibility. Because of that, I'd rather not go into detail--if I explain, then any further information on RR is tainted.

I like this.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*nods knowingly*




*I don't get it*

I like the fact that Ranger doesn't want to give out more information about the issues he has with us, so as to prevent us from somehow altering our play to counteract whatever he thinks he's seeing. It's good town play, imo.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Objectively speaking, when dealing with a player who is known to tunnel (like yourself, titus), any situation where they suspect someone IS identical to the beginning stages of a tunnel, since before you tunnel anyone, you clearly have to be suspicious of them first. It's a pedantic point, but I think it holds.

Also, shut up Titus, my play is immaculate town me, and if it isn't , then I'm either bad scum (which I don't think you think I am), or it should be considered proof of the fact that I'm town (cuz scum me isn't bad, and my town meta is EASY to imitate. Setup spec, theory talk, shit on reads D1 cause it's all BS, and respond to every post directed to me or that mentions me in a way I find worthy of comment).

Bright thing is a good point wgeurts just made. I hadn't checked the player list, so I wasn't aware.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You don't get to tell me to shut up. Anyone can tunnel, not just me. The point is though not all my suspicions are tunnels and LQ's comment there is shit.

You could just be lurking scum. Lurking town. Bad town or bad scum. I don't know which.

Give me some solid scumreads with reasoning or be happy in my scum/to be sorted pile. Until I see town Cerb, I will not be happy.

~Titus

Titus....you know I don't figure the game out D1, because of lack of content and lack of facts to use to figure the game out. It's unreasonable for you to expect that from me here, when I have NEVER done so in the past.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And since elderberries won't grow for a while, I am to share info that the wizard told me. The info is there is a scum role that can lock this thread and force votes to be cast by PMing. The wizard said that we need to vote either Elbirn or scum to prevent this villain from screwing us over.

Can we please stop spamming the thread with what is either complete fluff, or coded messages?

Because what was just said here is obviously really important.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I am an informed messaging townie that can send messages during the day. There are other methods of communicating outside the thread. The fruit is my method of communicating with my block to counteract an uber powerful anti-town role.

There is a role that makes all players vote within 24 hours by pm. It terminates the day after that. All votes are anonymous and cannot be detected by any means.

To counteract this role, we're voting Jeanne or LQ when this happens.

Or we can just vote titus for what could easily be a planned way to turn what would otherwise just be a way to ensure a no lynch into an extra kill.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm going to be at a convention today, so I'll be posting sporadically. This shit is really interesting but I can't respond to it all right now.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

"Come on! Show me what a man you've become!"

-Teo McDohl,

Suikoden I

VOTECOUNT 1.08

LicketyQuickety (5):

Suzune, Ranger, Firekari, Titus, Jeane11

Elbirn (2):

pistachi0n, BRantz

Titus (1):

Bright

Blackest Magick (1):

Elbirn

Jeanne11 (1):

LicketyQuickety

Klingoncelt (1):

wgeurts

Not Voting (3):

Klingoncelt, Reasonably Rational, Blackest Magick

With 14 Alive, it takes 8 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2015-11-11 18:55:00)

"Take care. Live your life to the fullest... for my sake too."

-Ted,

Suikoden I

VOTECOUNT 1.09

LicketyQuickety (4):

Suzune, Ranger, Firekari, Jeane11

Jeanne11 (3):

LicketyQuickety, pistachi0n, Bright

Titus (3):

Blackest Magick, Reasonably Rational, wgeurts

Ranger (1):

Klingoncelt

Elbirn (1):

BRantz

Blackest Magick (1):

Elbirn

Not Voting (1):

Titus

With 14 Alive, it takes 8 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2015-11-11 18:55:00)
My access will be very limited for the rest of the day. Please understand.

Alright, so no votes happened in between these VC's. We can see what happened in the melee.

Also, we should kill the damn dog, or at least figure out if the damn dog is even killable. I don't know if anybody else noticed that, but there are 14 players alive, including Bright, which isn't in the player list, and is CLEARLY some sort of method of anonymous double voting.

VOTE: Bright


-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Blackest Magick (Xtoxm & Pokerface) From not voting to Titus(and made the vote earlier than I did, and I made the vote like 9 hours ago). Similarly, we know wgeurts made his vote sometime between when I did and now.
FireKari (Firebringer & Yukari) No change
Klingoncelt Not voting > Ranger
Ranger No change
Elbirn No change
Reasonably Rational (Drixx & Cerberus v666) Not voting > Titus
wgeurts klingon > Titus
Jeanne11 No change
Titus LQ to unvoting
BRantz No change
LicketyQuickety No change
pistachi0n Elbirn > Jeanne
Suzune No change.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Spoiler: LicketyQuickety (4): Suzune, Ranger, Firekari, Jeane11

Suzune No change.
Ranger No change
FireKari (Firebringer & Yukari) No change
Jeanne11 No change

Spoiler: Jeanne11 (3): LicketyQuickety, pistachi0n, Bright

LicketyQuickety No change
pistachi0n Elbirn > Jeanne
Bright Titus>Jeanne(Missed this on my first pass through)

Spoiler: Titus (3): Blackest Magick, Reasonably Rational, wgeurts

Blackest Magick (Xtoxm & Pokerface) From not voting to Titus(and made the vote earlier than I did, and I made the vote like 9 hours ago). Similarly, we know wgeurts made his vote sometime between when I did and now.
Reasonably Rational (Drixx & Cerberus v666) Not voting > Titus
wgeurts klingon > Titus

Spoiler: Ranger (1): Klingoncelt

Klingoncelt Not voting > Ranger

Spoiler: Elbirn (1): BRantz

BRantz No change

Spoiler: Blackest Magick (1): Elbirn

Elbirn No change

Spoiler: Not Voting (1): Titus

Titus LQ to unvoting

[Reasonably Rational]

UNVOTE:
No it isn't I changed my mind for reasons that will become clear later and others I can give now.

Then you should. Fmpov, you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

If your point of view was what you claim it is, then you cannot draw that conclusion rationally. If you are really town, then scum would know they didn't trigger that situation and would cautiously know it was a trap. You are too smart to expect scum to get "caught" by what you claim was what happened. If you were being honest, you would be looking for scum among the people who were being careful because they knew they didn't cause the 24 hour thing and therefore they would know things weren't as you were implying.

Speaking of your implications and explications ... another post coming.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Then my votes on Jeanne.

Vote is on Jeanne? Funny, Jeanne is not spelled Titus.

Damn that's a really scummy move and

REALLY

scummy post here, Titus. That series of posts by you before the look made it seem like there was only two people to vote for prior to that thing triggering, with all that encoded posts bullshit you were doing in the thread. Just because you have an interesting role doesn't give you the right to lie about a bunch of stuff. Too much manipulation on your part when the first thing you do is make a scummy push based upon a super reasonable vote against you.

Can't believe you intentionally gave the impression that the 24 hour thing would be essentially a private gladiate between Jeanne and LQ, and you made it super clear to everyone that your view was Jeanne was town and so everyone should vote LQ, and then pretend like it's scummy that people didn't trust you when they realized your implications and posts were misleading and/or outright lies. You were so successful at pushing that idea that I actually thought that was real. I thought we were restricted between voting one of those two until I asked Cerb to check with Varsoon about whether it was a normal lynch rules or just whichever of them got the most votes, and Cerb came back and told me we could vote anyone.

That's when I said we should vote you. You clearly were behind the whole thing and you intentionally misled the game on several fronts. What we're seeing isn't town Titus.

If wguerts also thought he had to choose between Jeanne and LQ, and then (like us) realized during the 24 hour period that he could vote for anyone, then you are the logical person to vote for Titus, given that you have repeatedly lied to the game and clearly tried to manipulate us into a false understanding of what was going on for an agenda that seems to have zero town motivation.

If wguerts' reasoning for voting is the same as ours, then we're with him in that.

I expect one hell of a response from you if you expect us to change our mind. I think wguerts is letting you off the hook way too easily Titus.

Irritated by Shenanigans,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

In case it wasn't super clear; you have until we figure out the dog thing to convince me that you are town!Titus and that all the scumminess is somehow town motivated. What you say and then your push on wguerts are contradictory. In fact... expecting you could claim scum was going to trigger an ability which they would clearly know they weren't triggering is something you are clearly smart enough to know that scum would realize was some kind of trap, so you should rationally be looking at who was being careful during that 24 hours, or to people who bought into your "Jeanne or LQ" false dichotomy.

That's the town way to evaluate what you claim was the point of your gambit, but you went off in some other direction that doesn't make sense.

Time is ticking.

P-Edit: Insulting me isn't going to help you. Scum would know that they didn't trigger the event, and thus you claiming they were the ones triggering it would alert any competent scum that they should be wary. If you want to argue you could maybe catch non-competent scum... that's maybe reasonable. Positing wguerts as not competent is not really solid ground to be standing on. And there's still the point that you don't appear to be evaluating the results of your gambit the way I would expect town Titus to evaluate it.

The fact that you felt the need to brush off what I said by claiming I'm acting butt hurt just reinforces my read on the situation. You can't argue against my point so you are resorting to insult and snark to try and be dismissive and hope that I go away. I don't have a lot of time but I'm pretty sure I can convince Cerb to ensure you explain yourself fully. You made this bed, now you have to lay in it. (Or is it "lie"?)

P-Edit2: Insulting me again by saying I lack basic reading comprehension, asserting that I'm pissed when you have no idea of my emotional state. Also, you now have agreed with me that scum would have acted differently than wguerts and yet your first pass at analyzing the results was to try and push wguerts. I am not sure I agree with your after the fact "predictions" of how people would respond to the situation. I'm particularly amused by you separating town into dumb and smart, but lumping scum all together. There are so many problems with what you're trying to sell.

P.S. - Stop insulting me. That's not going to get you anywhere. Also ... are you saying that Jeanne11 is stupid in post #658? That's not cool.

[Reasonably Rational]

The very fact that I read all that lead up to the thread lock and took your word that you were informed and we would need to vote between Jeanne and LQ should tell you that you were fairly successful at planting that false dichotomy. Obviously we realized it wasn't actually the only choices, but you cannot deny that you did your very best to set it up to look like only two choices.

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: wgeurts

The fact is that only scum would say that they cannot be read.

#farmers ftw

Bad vote with bad reasons. Any player who sticks with forum mafia long enough to become fairly experienced and competent will intentionally work on their game so that they cannot be easily read unless they choose to OTAF themselves.

[Reasonably Rational]

Because he's scum?

VOTE: LQ

Everyone could be scum, you know. T

he last time we lost was because scum fooled us

. Trust no one until their actions convince you.

Because that isn't what happens EVERY time town loses?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, but why hide your alignment?

Is this a serious question? Please tell me that you're just screwing with me.

And your vote was bad in my eyes too, considering that I am a confirmed townie from my POV. You think I am gonna fall for scum accusing me of being scum when I am town twice? The only way you can convince me you're town at this point is to vote LQ.

Our vote was to test what's up with there being an extra "player" in the game which is actually just someone with a double vote and an alt account that is a "dog" who can vote. Are you claiming to be the dog/dog owner?

Maybe they did?
Also the role fishing thing is still utter crap.

Titus thinks things are role fishing that aren't role fishing. Don't try and argue with her about it... it's seriously not worth it. She will never ever re-evaluate and it will just screw up the game. If you need evidence, go read my ISO (Drixx) and hers in "We Didn't Playtest This" and you can see where I go out my way asking that nobody claim and explaining why I was concerned by a mysterious extra vote that wasn't accounted for. Despite me going out of my way to ask that nobody claim and despite another player pointing it out earlier, she decided I was role fishing and it became a gigantic thing that went on for days. Even after I had a cop innocent on me and the rest of the game read me as OTAF, Titus was

still

pushing me as scum because of "role fishing".

Seriously ... just don't engage her, even if she's clearly wrong. If she thinks something is role fishing, there is literally ZERO upside to even paying attention to her. If you actually engage with it, it will be unpleasant for everyone.

So......what do the farmers say?

You reap what you sow. You pushed the plan too fast and we reaped no harvest. Simple as that.

I find myself agreeing with Reasonably Rational simply because if you wanted to discover scum through a potential quick hammer the votes would have to have been closer that someone would have wanted to make the risk to kill a townie. That would mean one of them would have to sacrifice themselves for the team. Therefore, since it was still so open and opinions were really divided at the point of the lock. It makes me wonder what was supposed to happen. I understood what was supposed to happen but I do not think that did happen here. It was too early, the plan jumped the gun.

*sighs* I SAID I WOULD BE BUSY ON MONDAY, K? DON'T KNOW ABOUT WHERE YOU LIVE, BUT HERE, REAL LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT. IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT, THEN U ARE STUPID......

Yes ... shouting and name calling and playing the real life card was all totally necessary.


Love, with exasperation,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx, you did rolefish in that game. LQ was rolefishing Jeanne and I had a hood and could talk.

See? There's no arguing with her.

She knows objectively now that I was town that game. One can clearly look at my posts in that game and see me being super careful to note that I didn't want anyone to claim but that I did think it was important for town to realize something strange was up with the votes.

The worst part is that someone else (who was a townie also) had already not only outed the extra vote, but had outed who it was.

So even knowing that I was town, and even having my posts which she now knows were coming from town and therefore she can trust them to be honest and town motivated, and even with those posts being me BEGGING for nobody to claim based upon my posts, she

still

, MONTHS LATER, is insisting that I was role fishing when all the evidence is contrary.

So seriously ... just don't get into it with her. There's zero upside to it.


Purely Exasperated,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Sorry but when someone is town and says they don't want the person with the role to claim and they don't want to know who has the role, they can't possibly be fishing for someone's role.

What do I think about the Jeanne thing? I think she appears scummy in several posts, but I also think it seems super convenient that she and you started having a back and forth show right when I was pressuring you and you decided to stop responding to my pressure. I will have to re-evaluate later tonight as I'm out of time now.

Love,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Ranger; you are objectively bad at mafia. Whatever is "bad" about marked had better not result in wguerts being dead or we'll ensure you are hanging on a rope as swiftly thereafter as possible.

We have our reasons, already crumbed.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Ranger is objectively bad, regardless of his alignment. Ranger claims to have had a "scum read" on wgeurts when marking wgeurts, but at the time of the mark, wgeurts had two posts: and RVS vote and an RVS chatter post a few posts later. There was no objective reason to mark wgeurts or any way to even read wgeurts at that time.

This public marking would seem to indicate a town role at work, but the horrible usage and obviously outright lie by Ranger claiming to have made the mark because of having a scum read have me reevaluating.

So if town, Ranger is objectively bad for making a hasty decision based upon nothing to actually read, and then later lying and claiming he had an actual reason to do what he did (presuming the mark is real and has the supposed sekret bad consequences). If scum, Ranger is even more objectively bad for doing that when there was clearly no town motive to do so, because now he's got a spotlight on him.

Anyone want to have a friendly bet on whether Ranger tries to wait me out and avoid this or whether he'll instead talk to me?

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Right now? So I would be at night? The night is in 9 days or so, not 'right now'.

You do realize you're implicating yourself?

Can we lynch this please? There's literally no way to read this and I don't want to be staring at end game and still wondering.

[Reasonably Rational]

There's nobody in this game who can objectively read Jeanne, and so there's only two ways to handle her: Lynch her while we have mislynches in case it's not just a put on by scum ... or investigate. But we can't trust that we HAVE a proper investigator and it would be suboptimal for an investigator to waste a night on someone who is being deliberately obtuse and slinging mud all over the place. This is a case where we're going to have to lynch Jeanne sooner or later, so better to do it today and get some clarity from all of her interactions.

You're town for {reasons}, which don't need to be discussed today, because scum doesn't need help.

[Reasonably Rational]

Alright, I'm finally back! Hello everyone!

Titus: Please explain what the hell you were doing asking ME, of all people, for a "gut read" on D1? I don't really give reads D1, period, and if I do give a read, it's not going to be a "gut read", it's going to be a read where I tell you exactly why I feel the way I do about a given slot. Also explain the logical inconsistencies in your play. Drixx mentioned this earlier, and I know you didn't respond in a fashion that had me nodding in agreement. In what universe do scum act in a fashion that exposes themselves, when an ability is activated which they KNOW they didn't activate, and the person who did activate it stated that it was one of their powers? I'm sure we do have information now, that we wouldn't have had otherwise, but your reasoning behind the play is terrible. That, more than anything else, worries me about you. I feel like you're scum Titus who just tried to leverage some power to buy yourself a bunch of town cred and discredit others(since you can interpret the vote movements however you want, really, especially D1...until we get some flips that vote is largely useless). In short, what you are and have been doing does not make sense. Start making sense.

Ranger: The value of analysis of RVS on D1, with no further information, comes from meta knowledge. Do you have knowledge of wgeurts meta such that his 11 and 13 gave you cause to scum read him? If so, link to the games in question, and expand on what said meta knowledge is. In addition, why wouldn't you wait until further information came from the thread to make your move and mark him? It's suboptimal play, in every way. It's strictly superior to wait until later in the day phase to make said mark, unless you expect there to be a vig that might shoot you. You'll get more information, you'll see how more people react who are already invested in conversations, you can note who takes the opportunity to change the subject, etc. The play you made is objectively inferior, even if you do actually have a good reason to scum read someone(which I find highly unlikely).

Jeanne11: You are tinfoil hat crazy right now. Stop it please. The game would be a lot better off if you just stopped responding to wgeurts etc. for, say, 36 hours, so we can start talking about all the other people in this game. I say this even though I am certain you are either scum or incredibly incompetent. There are no other explanations for ruining the plan Titus had set up by jumping the gun. I'm going to advise Drixx to ignore you for the rest of the day, and I'm going to ignore you as well, because you aren't helping the game state at all. You're just spamming the thread.

Those are the first thoughts off the top of my head. I might do some isoing later, I might not, no guarantees, we'll see what happens...but really, guys. look to the people who aren't involved in this huge drama in the middle of the thread for the scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ranger: The value of analysis of RVS on D1, with no further information, comes from meta knowledge.

Only for an amateur.

More experienced players can read deeper into the meaning behind posts and pick up on things.

In addition, why wouldn't you wait until further information came from the thread to make your move and mark him?

As stated, marking is bad for the marked, but only if I trigger it. I can always choose not to trigger it. wgeurts was a scumread, and my action is a day-action, so I needed to submit someone, and I figured he was a good choice: someone who was weakly a scumread, but not likely to be lynched.

Furthermore, by marking earlier, discussion about the mark could be had without it distracting from pre-existing things. Marking a player in the middle of the day may have dissolved the LQ wagon, for instance.

Yes, which gives more information that just a conversation about the mark alone gives. Strictly superior to do it later. I feel we're going to disagree on a lot of things though, you have some ideas about the game that I feel are, well, wrong, and so the moves you're making are nonsensical to me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7341485

it's varsoon dicking around

The game mod is obviously not voting in the game, ergo he had that account activated and gave it to the appropriate player to use.

I'm trying to decide if you actually could possibly believe that a game mod would be voting in his game, or if you were trying to accomplish something with that post.


@Ranger - Like I said before. Wgeurts (dammit that name is shit to spell) is town. Also, stop with the conf bias and insulting. RVS talk

can

be useful, but you trying to stroke your ego is just mastubatory given that the two RVS posts you claim to have gleaned something from were Wgeurts voting Titus and giving the reason that she was scum last game they played together (nothing there that's alignment indicative), and then asking Titus what TV show she was watching (again nothing to glean alignment from).

And if you are going to go after people for preparing posts, why not me? I made a back to back post earlier in which the first post I referenced a post I was going to make which was long and obviously prepared prior to the first post. Lots of us prepare posts in notepad. Cerb and I always ask for a hydra PT to use. Many people on the site (including me) can create PTs and invite people to them (the mods obviously monitor them), so someone could just create a PT for their own notes and never invite someone to it.

You appear to be starting with a conclusion you want people to buy and then trying to bend posts out of shape so they can serve as "evidence" of the viewpoint you started with. That's an invalid way to apply logic.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Pistachion: please provide content. Weak scumread of Kari, which is strong enough for a vote to you. Got it. Any thoughts on anything else that occurred in this game so far?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

"You must never give up hope. With just a little bit of hope, you can survive, live on. And that goes for humans as well as elves."

-Gremio,

Suikoden I

VOTECOUNT 1.11

LicketyQuickety (5):

Ranger, Titus, Suzune, Jeanne11,

Elbirn (2):

BRantz, Bright

Jeanne11 (2):

LicketyQuickety, pistachi0n

Titus (1):

Blackest Magick

Ranger (1):

wgeurts

Bright (1):

Reasonably Rational

Not Voting (2):

Klingoncelt, Elbirn

With 14 Alive, it takes 8 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2015-11-11 18:55:00)

@Varsoon

: FireKari is missing from this vote count. If FireKari is not voting LQ, the vote count is incorrect.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Blackest Magick: this game has more than enough content for people to have opinions on. Share yours.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

BM: what you just posted is worthless. Give me reasons. Tell me if that's a list of town reads or scum reads. Also, the value in lynching said extra vote comes from the possibly incorrect assumption that Bright's alignment when flipped would match with the alignment of their creator. The thought isn't that it needs to be removed...the thought is that lynching it will result in either the removal of a scum tool, or confirmation of a players alignment. That's really more of an "in the event nobody seems obvscum today" option though. To that end, I had to place my vote on it to determine whether or not it was something we could vote for.

Titus, my previous question still stands. Also, just a point, I NEVER look at youtube videos posted. I do a lot of my playing via mobile and/or at work where looking at those videos isn't an option or simply wouldn't be enjoyable, so I don't do it.

I do second Titus' assertion that the game thread would be much cleaner if LQ and Jeanne refrained from posting for a bit so we can engage with other individuals.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Alright, I'm finally back! Hello everyone!

Titus: Please explain what the hell you were doing asking ME, of all people, for a "gut read" on D1? I don't really give reads D1, period, and if I do give a read, it's not going to be a "gut read", it's going to be a read where I tell you exactly why I feel the way I do about a given slot. Also explain the logical inconsistencies in your play. Drixx mentioned this earlier, and I know you didn't respond in a fashion that had me nodding in agreement. In what universe do scum act in a fashion that exposes themselves, when an ability is activated which they KNOW they didn't activate, and the person who did activate it stated that it was one of their powers? I'm sure we do have information now, that we wouldn't have had otherwise, but your reasoning behind the play is terrible. That, more than anything else, worries me about you. I feel like you're scum Titus who just tried to leverage some power to buy yourself a bunch of town cred and discredit others(since you can interpret the vote movements however you want, really, especially D1...until we get some flips that vote is largely useless). In short, what you are and have been doing does not make sense. Start making sense.

Ranger: The value of analysis of RVS on D1, with no further information, comes from meta knowledge. Do you have knowledge of wgeurts meta such that his 11 and 13 gave you cause to scum read him? If so, link to the games in question, and expand on what said meta knowledge is. In addition, why wouldn't you wait until further information came from the thread to make your move and mark him? It's suboptimal play, in every way. It's strictly superior to wait until later in the day phase to make said mark, unless you expect there to be a vig that might shoot you. You'll get more information, you'll see how more people react who are already invested in conversations, you can note who takes the opportunity to change the subject, etc. The play you made is objectively inferior, even if you do actually have a good reason to scum read someone(which I find highly unlikely).

Jeanne11: You are tinfoil hat crazy right now. Stop it please. The game would be a lot better off if you just stopped responding to wgeurts etc. for, say, 36 hours, so we can start talking about all the other people in this game. I say this even though I am certain you are either scum or incredibly incompetent. There are no other explanations for ruining the plan Titus had set up by jumping the gun. I'm going to advise Drixx to ignore you for the rest of the day, and I'm going to ignore you as well, because you aren't helping the game state at all. You're just spamming the thread.

Those are the first thoughts off the top of my head. I might do some isoing later, I might not, no guarantees, we'll see what happens...but really, guys. look to the people who aren't involved in this huge drama in the middle of the thread for the scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My point is that there is no information gained from that vote which is usable today, and your assertion that would be is fundamentally flawed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My point is that there is no information gained from that vote which is usable today, and your assertion that would be is fundamentally flawed.

-Cerb

VCA isn't meant to be done Day 1. Still flipping LQ would do shittons in proving my theory as you believe that Suzune/Elbrin/Jeanne are town right?

My assertion isn't flawed. If my plan failed at all, it's because of Jeanne saying "scum" instead of anti-town. Still think it netted us LQ and wgeurts as scum. BM is likely the third.

I don't particularly find any of those slots to be town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: BRantz.

Mark: wgeurts.

(I wonder if Varsoon will accept that? If so, wgeurts will confirm when it's been done. If not, then I suppose I need to go through the effort of PMing it.)

This is your only post. Interesting way to come out of the gate....

What does "mark" mean?

What do you think of me? I want to know if you like me? :-p

Titus, how could anyone not like you?

Hi.

Elbrin or BM, who is scummier and why?

Between the two, I'd say Elbirn. His play reminds me of Devil Elbirn from Midnight Sun.

RRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrr....

Graaaah! Gwarrrrr! KYreeeeeh! Kyrrrr!!

Who the hell is this?

Here ya go Titus:

Blackest Magick (Xtoxm & Pokerface) - 5 posts, 1's RVS, 1's fluff. I can see this sort of thing from Pokerface, but where is Xtoxm?

Brantz - 3 posts, only 1 with any (minimal) level of content.

Bright - WTF???

Elbirn - Is Titus right about him being a wagon sensor? (post 413) What is his connection with Titus? Why isn't he scumreading Jeanne?

FireKari - (post 162) - Are they claiming Oracle? What is AUA? Where's FireBringer?

Jeanne11 - Wants players to prove that they aren't Scum? How the hell is that supposed to happen?

LQ - Weirdly paranoid. Where's the self-confidence?

Pistachi0n - 3 posts, not exactly fluff, but still... it looks like he's trying to make it look like he cares.

Ranger - That "marked" thing bugs me, what is it? And Ranger claims that Wgeurts confirmed it?

Reasonably Rational - Holy cats, the hydra really is reasonably rational! They're the only sane player so far. The posts have content and make sense... Lean Town

Suzune - Seems to be as lost as I am.

Titus - Possibly outs an Oracle and a Sensor, then gets on LQ for rolefishing. Really bad. Then there's the fruit code thing with Elbirn. Are they masons? Neighbors? Lovers? Scum?

Wgeurts - Supposedly confirmed Ranger's "mark" by asking about it, even though Titus and I asked about it too... Otherwise nothing at all... Lean Scum.

Oh - Pistachion is Lean Scum, I forgot to type in in my reads.

Well, I need proof that you're town. And I mean solid proof, not just wishy-washy argument heavily influenced by you.

Jeanne, this is awful.

The only way anyone can prove anything is by mod confirmation or flip.

Exactly what proof have you provided that you are Town?

Right now? So I would be at night? The night is in 9 days or so, not 'right now'.

You do realize you're implicating yourself?

Can we lynch this please? There's literally no way to read this and I don't want to be staring at end game and still wondering.

I don't want to lynch her yet.

I want to try and figure her out.

Jeanne11

- could you give us a reads list, please? I know you have everyone as Scum, but could you put down a sentence or two as to why?

All of Klingons meaningful content.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, here are my reads. They're all gut reads for now.

I feel like I am a pain with you but, Jeanne, could you give us a little bit of substance.

Your not masons, otherwise you wouldn't have voted em

Well this is true. I would call it temporary aid. At least masons know that everyone present is town.

So just because I have voted them, I cannot be in masonry/neighbourhood with them,

Perhaps this is a rule I am unfamiliar with. But Masons can vote masons. I have allowed my masons to do it before in order to keep their teammates from being nightkilled because they would always have a small suspicion on them.

Jeanne was being sarcastic. About the voting.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, Quoting Klingon's ISO and saying it's meaningful doesn't explain anything.

I'm not trying to explain anything. I'm just highlighting the pieces that might lead someone to feel she's scum hunting.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Firekari: Under what circumstances would you be unable to conftown D2?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, Quoting Klingon's ISO and saying it's meaningful doesn't explain anything.

I'm not trying to explain anything. I'm just highlighting the pieces that might lead someone to feel she's scum hunting.

-Cerb

Do you? Might lead someone isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

I don't think she is. I see tangential involvement in the noise that is Jeanne, with no independent pushing being done. But I see how someone could view that as scum hunting.

-Cer

[Reasonably Rational]

I'd rather lynch Ranger. Marking someone after two posts, with something she admits is at best bad, isn't pro-town play. I actually don't believe there's a single person so far today who has given me cause to think they're town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, for once, I have scum reads on D1! Titus, for all the reasons given previously(the whole gambit was...just...ridiculous). And! Ranger, for developing a scum read strong enough to mark a player after two meaningless posts were made by that player. I'll gladly lynch either of them. ^^ I'll see how Drixx feels.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, for once, I have scum reads on D1! Titus, for all the reasons given previously(the whole gambit was...just...ridiculous). And! Ranger, for developing a scum read strong enough to mark a player after two meaningless posts were made by that player. I'll gladly lynch either of them. ^^ I'll see how Drixx feels.

-Cerb

What do you think the motive behind Titus use of her PR was? We agree that (based on available data) it could have been used better, but is that alignment indicative? If so, then how?
~Yukari

The usage isn't alignment indicative. It's the bad reasoning behind the usage that makes me question Titus. I can't accept that she would honestly believe that scum would believe her description of how her power worked and thus use it to sneak in a mislynch, when they know she was already lying about the source of the power.

Titus: I'll sleep on it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ranger, for developing a scum read strong enough to mark a player after two meaningless posts were made by that player.

And I refuse to believe you hold this opinion when I've made it clear that where I come from, RVS content is important.

Ranger, is your marking only useful at the beginning of the day?

Sort-of? The later into the day I use the mark, the less utility there is behind me having marked a player.

Fuck off with your "I refuse to believe" bullshit. Neither of us care one bit about your ego stroking "I'm amazing and can have perfect reads 100% of the time based upon posts which are by definition random, and I told you that I come from a site where RVS content miraculously wins the game for town 100% of the time" bullshit. Self-meta is worthless, and sorry but your reads are so bad it's actually funny. I literally am laughing at how bad your reads and play is so far today.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Neither of us care one bit about your ego stroking "I'm amazing and can have perfect reads 100% of the time based upon posts which are by definition random, and I told you that I come from a site where RVS content miraculously wins the game for town 100% of the time" bullshit.

Never once have I said my reads were perfect. I have five scumreads; there can be only three scum in the game. Even if the scum are entirely within the five names, by definition that means I'm wrong on two. Never once have I claimed I was amazing. (I might be

regarded

as one of the better analysts on my home site, but I've never thought of myself that way. I'm just an average player.) I also quite explicitly said that RVS content does not win the game for us. I said in 5/6 games, it's important. Of those games, though, half are mafia wins. (Give or take.) It's no miracle winning strategy.

However, I refuse to let you call the RVS content irrelevant when my style of play is largely based around it.

While it may not instantly win the game, it

is

important. It's what I focus on the most, because it's what I've found easiest to find scum in. The way my mind works, I

thrive

on random. Meaning, I pick up on random things...which the RVS is filled with. Does it work all the time, no. But does it work as a valid tactic? Yes.

sorry but your reads are so bad it's actually funny. I literally am laughing at how bad your reads and play is so far today.

We'll see who's laughing at who by the end of the game.

{Elbirn, Suzune, Jeanne, FireKari, Titus}
{pistachi0n, Klingoncelt}
{Reasonably Rational, wgeurts}
{BRantz}
{LicketyQuickety, Blackest Magic}.
This is where I stand right now.

*I* called the RVS content irrelevant on D1. As we get deeper into the game, more meaning can be drawn from everything that happened during D1. Including RVS, if said posts are made from people who are stupid. I'm going to assume you're used to playing with idiots who create clear associatives and intent during what is, essentially, the least meaningful part of the game.

Anyways. You said that marking was bad. You said that explicitly. You said it might *not* be bad, if you didn't use it. Your only defense to your early usage is that you believe it would have given more useful information at that point, than if used later, even though when used later you can analyze what conversations were actively disrupted by your usage of the power.

Reads lists that are lists of names are stupid. I realize you have expressed an opinion on those slots before, with reasons, I'm just saying put the reasons...in the list. It's easy to vomit out a reads list. It's not easy to vomit out a reads list that is consistent with prior play and which accounts for changes in your opinion which may have occurred.

Oh, the Kari point, and the thing about my lack of town reads. Every single person who has done anything which *could* be argued to be town motivated, has done so in a fashion that's left me with the ability to argue, with equal ardor, that it's actually scum motivated. Some people, like Brantz, who don't have any content, but what content they do have is reasonably town, are naturally suspect because of the fact that they don't have content in the first place.

RE: Kari conftowning. They said they could probably(possibly?) conftown on D2. They had already established when they could conftown, HOWEVER, the fact that they didn't simply say they would conftown at such and such time indicates that their method of conftowning is likely subjective. They are not an Innocent Child, they are someone who has a power which they feel has no scum utility, which they can prove, and they believe doing so will confirm them as town, even though simply having a power with no scum utility, gives it the ability to be used to generate town cred.

That is why I asked under what circumstances they wouldn't be able to conftown. They did not phrase their conftown claim in a fashion which inspires confidence, but rather in a way that makes it sound far more like a subjective thing, or one based upon a gambit they will/are going to make.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Jeanne, this is likely the last time this head of the hydra will respond to you, for today at least. The issue with what you're doing isn't the demand for objective proof. The issue is the fact that you seem to be unable to realize that objective proof is not available at this point in the game, and that all objective proof which is later provided WILL NOT, in and of itself, confirm anyone's alignment. There are ALWAYS going to be counterarguments for whether or not a specific set of plays was made by a scum slot or a town slot. The goal is to use the various pieces of objective proof available throughout the game to diminish the probability of certain alignments when applied to specific slots. It's a matter of finding a series of events IMPROBABLE, for various reasons...not a matter of finding out, with absolute certainty, that someone is some alignment. The ONLY time you know someones alignment is when they flip, or if the mod confirms them.

Imagine, for a moment, that alignments are on a sliding scale. 0 is scum, 100 is town. You have been asserting that unless someone is at 100 for you, they are scum to you. That is a problem, because of the above fact that nobody should EVER be at 100 barring mod confirmation. No slot should ever be above 90 or so, simply because WiFoM is a thing, and the people who play this game are smart. Improbable != impossible.

On top of all of the above is the fact that you are drawing parallels between the play of DIFFERENT PEOPLE. You say wgeurts is playing like Shiro. WHO CARES????? Wgeurts is not Shiro. Even if Wgeurts WERE Shiro, the fact that Shiro played in such and such fashion last time DOES NOT mean that this time his play has the same meaning. You are misusing the concept of meta, already a terrible way to judge people(because if you assume competence in other players, you have to assume they are aware of and/or can manipulate their own meta when required) by applying the meta of one person to someone else.

On another note, you also attack me on the basis of what you view as inconsistencies in my response to wgeurts statements, and rangers marking of wgeurts. The primary difference here is that wgeurts *had* content to go off of when he made his statements. He had a readslist, which pointed to actual events and things individuals had said, and his reaction to them and why. Ranger...points to two posts, which are nearly devoid of value, and says they're the reason for his action. It simply doesn't make sense.

With that handled, let me address the "assumptions" made above. I am asserting that the only way said statements made by others make sense to me, is in the event that my assumption is true. If my assumption is not true. I find the other persons statements to be unreasonable conclusions to arrive at. It's as simple as that. I am not saying x is the case if y is the case. i am saying x only MAKES SENSE TO ME if y is the case. If not, please have another go at explaining this to me in a way that will make sense to me.

I'd also like to remind both Titus and Jeanne that there's no rage here.

I hold a subjective opinion that Jeannes methodology for determining alignment and those who she trusts in the game is worthless, therefore her contributions are of negligible value, and thus she should be ignored because she's talking too much for someone who isn't contributing to the thread productively.

With regards to Kari's conftown claim, Titus, that particular situation with Mastin is the exact reason why I'm questioning this conftown claim. it has been my experience that people who say they are going to conftown at such and such point are generally relying upon town's acceptance of their assertions, and not confirmation of some sort from the mod. Thus, they are not "conftowning" themselves. At best, they are obvtowning themselves. It's a semantic quibble, but it's a major one. Someone who conflates conftowning and obvtowning is going to later run into the scenario where, predictably, there will be a group shouting "Kill them, they said they were going to conftown and they aren't!" and another shouting "Leave them alone, if they were scum they wouldn't draw such attention to themselves with a claim they can't hope to back up." This is not a productive circumstance, and one which I wish to avoid by confirming what status Kari claims their slot will attain on D2.

All of this, by the way, ignores the fact that they're claiming they will be conftowning IN PRIVATE, thereby forcing us to wait until we see a flip from those who agree that whatever they revealed does indeed conftown them, and then we need to decide, if they're town, if we trust their judgment enough to assign a conftown tag to someone.

This is directed at Kari: As a matter of fact, if the uncertainty of their conftowning came from their unwillingness to do so to the town at large and not from some uncertainty regarding whether or not their reveal will indeed conftown them, I have to question both the value of mentioning this conftown claim, and where they get the idea that Titus and/or Jeanne are both town(because if there is ANY uncertainty that either one isn't town, you should either not reveal whatever it is you have to reveal, or if it is best for town if you reveal it, you should reveal it to *everyone*.

Titus: I've noticed a willingness to back away from the LQ wagon, which is a slot you've been fairly solid in thinking is scum, and this willingness has come when the wagon has stalled. I wouldn't expect town you to be dissuaded from pushing for a scum reads lynch even if said lynch seemed extremely unlikely to happen, which makes it very surprising to see you do so for a slot which is 3 votes from lynch. Why are you backing off him?

Jeanne: You're welcome to direct questions at me, but I'm not going to be spending any time responding to you. There's too much paranoia in your posting and too much of a martyr attitude for me to draw anything significant with regards to your alignment from your posting, so I'm just not going to engage.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not backing off of LQ. I still think LQ is fine to lynch. I was thinking you were town, but you're drawing too many parallells here where I'm starting to doubt again. Given the LQ wagon appears to be all town, but none of the people on the wagon are expressly townreading Klingon, I was hoping to work together. Considering you're shitting all over that, I'll just be over here doing me.

Kari's claim is exactly like Mastinas. Both said they were conftown on Day X. Kari's hasn't resolved yet, but this one has all the issues Mastina had. Yet, you were fine with that particular one. You're not now. I'm wondering whether the difference is because of your alignment or because you aren't going to be in the hood confirmed that "confirms" Kari.

There's been growth in my play due to seeing mastin, in particular, claim to be conftown TWICE in situations where she was not conftown. That fact has made me particularly aware of the fact that what others call conftown, I call "probably town because of role and flavor and other stuff that's happened in game, but not actually conftown".

Also, since you don't seem to recall this correctly, at the time Mastin made her claim in SU, Drixx and I were unaware of the means by which she would conftown. The fact that I may not be involved in whatever "confirms" their slot is irrelevant, because I did not then, and do not now, know anything about the means by which they will confirm themselves. If you want to call the fact that I'm better at anticipating problems with plays and assertions others make now then I was during SU a scum tell, you are welcome to do so.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

With regards to Kari's conftown claim, Titus, that particular situation with Mastin is the exact reason why I'm questioning this conftown claim. it has been my experience that people who say they are going to conftown at such and such point are generally relying upon town's acceptance of their assertions, and not confirmation of some sort from the mod. Thus, they are not "conftowning" themselves. At best, they are obvtowning themselves. It's a semantic quibble, but it's a major one. Someone who conflates conftowning and obvtowning is going to later run into the scenario where, predictably, there will be a group shouting "Kill them, they said they were going to conftown and they aren't!" and another shouting "Leave them alone, if they were scum they wouldn't draw such attention to themselves with a claim they can't hope to back up." This is not a productive circumstance, and one which I wish to avoid by confirming what status Kari claims their slot will attain on D2.

All of this, by the way, ignores the fact that they're claiming they will be conftowning IN PRIVATE, thereby forcing us to wait until we see a flip from those who agree that whatever they revealed does indeed conftown them, and then we need to decide, if they're town, if we trust their judgment enough to assign a conftown tag to someone.

This is directed at Kari: As a matter of fact, if the uncertainty of their conftowning came from their unwillingness to do so to the town at large and not from some uncertainty regarding whether or not their reveal will indeed conftown them, I have to question both the value of mentioning this conftown claim, and where they get the idea that Titus and/or Jeanne are both town(because if there is ANY uncertainty that either one isn't town, you should either not reveal whatever it is you have to reveal, or if it is best for town if you reveal it, you should reveal it to *everyone*.

By your standard it would be considered obvtown. We feel it is strong but not a 100% mod confirmed thing. Based on factors we would rather keep silent for now, we feel conf to hood optimal vs conf to everyone.
~Yukari

Understood. You do realize that per the information we've been given so far, only one individual would be allowed in in said hood, so you would only be revealing your whatever to one of either Jeanne or Titus, whichever one actually possesses the hood power? With that knowledge, are you saying that you believe it is extremely likely that both Jeanne and Titus are town? If so, why?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We're a hydra who uses reasoning and probability to solve the game. We've told you several times that wguerts is town. We clearly would only say that if we had some reason to believe that. Further pushing against Wguerts will be viewed as fishing and the people doing the pushing will be assumed scum. Simple as that.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@Klingon, yup. Suzune Elbrin and Jeanne aren't conf anything solely because we had a communication method. They're town due to actions.

So LQ BM RR or Brantz, name your scumreads please.

I've already answered this. The fact that you don't agree with me doesn't change the reads.

@Klingon, yup. Suzune Elbrin and Jeanne aren't conf anything solely because we had a communication method. They're town due to actions.

So LQ BM RR or Brantz, name your scumreads please.

What about Wgeurts? Did I miss something? I have him at lean Scum vs Ranger at lean Scum.

LQ, lean Scum, the others lean Town.

If we lynch LQ and he flips Scum that's great, but I'd like a lynch that gives us information. Although lynching LQ regardless of flip should quiet Jeanne down... that would be a plus.

Screw that. I'd rather lynch Jeanne and shut her up that way. I don't actually see anything that's alignment indicative coming out of LQ at all. Seriously, where do you all get the idea that he's scum from?

If we lynch LQ and he flips Scum that's great, but I'd like a lynch that gives us information.

This is a fair point because many people seem to be leaning against LQ, that limits the amount of information that is obtained from the flip.

Information is always gained, what's important is getting people on record before the flip about *why* they're leaning against him.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

/me checks in, sees nobody has actually told him *why* they think LQ is scum yet, reminds everyone that he doesn't actually town read any of you based on what you've put in the thread, including LQ, and just wants more information, and leaves.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey LQ, why is Jeanne scum?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@LQ, I have learned a shitton from my gambit. If I am alive in a few days, I should have this cracked.

Also, why wouldn't you claim here?

If you have learned a "shitton" ... then you should be able to solve the game. Since you haven't, then what you are actually saying here is:

1.) You hope that with new information as the game progresses, your gambit will yield results ... and if this is the case, you are obviously still delusional and assuming we have absurdly stupid scum. Just about everything you said before triggering the 24 hour period was a lie (which was one of the reasons we voted you), and the idea that scum wouldn't have realized it was a lie is supremely foolish. Any "results" from your gambit are impossible to discern anything from due to WiFoM. You cannot objectively state right now what the results mean, because you don't actually know how scum responded. You have even given contradictory answers for what you expected various groups of people to do (As I recall you mentioned 3 groups: Smart town, dumb town and scum).

2.) You are stalling for time so you can fake your normal VCA, much like in SU. Your play so far seems just like your scum style. In SU you relied on crazy gambits to try and get {he who shall not be named?} and yourself into the town block... but you slipped and tripped and only the actions of honorary scum team member Grapes got you a win. I'm not a big fan of the whole "this feels like another game so it must be the same" approach, so mostly I'm just scum reading you for lying. I came very close to pushing a Lynch all Liars PL case on you.

But really that's not necessary. Either you'll kill us to silence us or we'll catch you.

@Ranger, what other sites do you play on?

External influences are not allowed. I believe you made reference to this rule when you dodged Wguerts "gentleman's bet" that if you were wrong you had to wear your shame in your signature for awhile, correct?

[Reasonably Rational]

@LQ, I have learned a shitton from my gambit. If I am alive in a few days, I should have this cracked.

Also, why wouldn't you claim here?

If you have learned a "shitton" ... then you should be able to solve the game. Since you haven't, then what you are actually saying here is:

1.) You hope that with new information as the game progresses, your gambit will yield results ... and if this is the case, you are obviously still delusional and assuming we have absurdly stupid scum. Just about everything you said before triggering the 24 hour period was a lie (which was one of the reasons we voted you), and the idea that scum wouldn't have realized it was a lie is supremely foolish. Any "results" from your gambit are impossible to discern anything from due to WiFoM. You cannot objectively state right now what the results mean, because you don't actually know how scum responded. You have even given contradictory answers for what you expected various groups of people to do (As I recall you mentioned 3 groups: Smart town, dumb town and scum).

2.) You are stalling for time so you can fake your normal VCA, much like in SU. Your play so far seems just like your scum style. In SU you relied on crazy gambits to try and get {he who shall not be named?} and yourself into the town block... but you slipped and tripped and only the actions of honorary scum team member Grapes got you a win. I'm not a big fan of the whole "this feels like another game so it must be the same" approach, so mostly I'm just scum reading you for lying. I came very close to pushing a Lynch all Liars PL case on you.

But really that's not necessary. Either you'll kill us to silence us or we'll catch you.

@Ranger, what other sites do you play on?

External influences are not allowed. I believe you made reference to this rule when you dodged Wguerts "gentleman's bet" that if you were wrong you had to wear your shame in your signature for awhile, correct?

[Reasonably Rational]

Sorry for the double post.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

I read everything. I don't like Jeannes case as presented, I read a number of the things she calls scummy as null at worst. I'll go over those differences in opinion in detail WAY later tonight (it is, after all, Guy Fawkes Day, and I muse watch V for Vendetta when I get home. ) The TL;DR version, however, is that my null read on LQ has actually shifted to a slight town read based on what Jeanne said. Not that it matters(I wasn't going to be on a LQ wagon anyways), but it might inspire me to actually defend him, which, contrary to prior accusations levelled at other's, isn't something anyone has actually done yet.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR might be scum with LQ. His push on me is garbage.
Wgeurts bleh not thrilled with him. He tried a SIG bet with me as well. I am reading the same hallmarks of desperation from him. If he hadn't cast that dumb vote, not sure I'd be scumreading him.
People agreeing won't comment. The rest are lurkers.

What part of the push in you is garbage? Do we hold you in higher esteem than you deserve, because that's the fundamental problem we have with your slot. Your thoughts aren't at the level we've come to expect from you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR might be scum with LQ. His push on me is garbage.
Wgeurts bleh not thrilled with him. He tried a SIG bet with me as well. I am reading the same hallmarks of desperation from him. If he hadn't cast that dumb vote, not sure I'd be scumreading him.
People agreeing won't comment. The rest are lurkers.

What part of the push in you is garbage? Do we hold you in higher esteem than you deserve, because that's the fundamental problem we have with your slot. Your thoughts aren't at the level we've come to expect from you.

-Cerb

#1330

Ah, yeah. I agree with you on that, I love Drixx but he's being silly with the VCA stalling accusation, though to be honest he probably just said that to see how you'd react, and I may have just ruined his plan. Ah well.

He is correct, though, in that you haven't actually learned a shitton yet (otherwise you'd be sure to share it with town at this point, since as soon as LQ gets hammered we go to night, and you might not have the chance to share it), but what you have done is create a unique situation which lends itself to your particular skills in the mid game. You have created potential for knowledge, not knowledge, and it's disingenuous of you to claim that you've actually learned anything meaningful from your gambit.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That wasn't the sort of response I would expect from you Titus. You either learned a shitton already (and should share it in case you have no future chance to do so) or you have learned nothing and simply assume that the "information" generated by your stunt will somehow actually amount to a "shitton". The problem is that you are too smart to actually believe you can properly discern anything from your gambit, because your gambit wasn't subtle. You have given contradictory expectations for how people would react to it, and even then your "predictions" rest on the assumption that scum actually believed the day was going to end after that 24 hours when nothing the mod said ever actually indicated that. You are basically saying that you are

depending

upon scum to have been absurdly stupid.

That just doesn't really fit with you. You are coming across quite a lot like scum gambit Titus and not at all like town Titus.

I think Cerberus put it very eloquently when he pointed out that you are undershooting our expectations of you. Significantly.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, What living players (not the dog) would you be willing to wagon?

The lurkers/non meaningful content providers, Pistachion/BM (although I think all both of those slots have begun to improve a bit, I need to double check and see if they actually made meaningful, insightful posts revealing independent thought, or if they were just sheeping the sentiment of the game/posting fluff...kari used to fall into this category, but has since improved), yourself, and possibly Klingon. The klingon thing is a faint Drixx feeling, not a deep seated feeling I have, so I can't speak as to whether it's serious enough that we'd want to lynch her over it. Something that should be noted though: if you weren't such a strong asset to town in the mid to late game, I would be doing everything possible to get you lynched right now.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, I have learned plenty.

1) My hood is likely all town, unless rarely Jeanne is scum.
2) LQ is probably scum or scum didn't believe what I said.
3) You as scum would avoid an LQ wagon and avoid wanting any real conflict.

You are going aggressive because you're boxed in. I've cleared too many people. Having that many clears is a shit ton.
Add in scum wouldn't likely bus on the offshoot I was honest and... Wham.

1 I simply don't agree with, but I don't actually have the same information you do, so maybe it's reasonable.
2 is the problem. In what world would scum believe you?
3 is a problem too, but not one you could be expected to anticipate...you have no idea how I would act as scum, given that I've never received a scum role on this site.

-Cerberus

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, Quoting Klingon's ISO and saying it's meaningful doesn't explain anything.

I'm not trying to explain anything. I'm just highlighting the pieces that might lead someone to feel she's scum hunting.

-Cerb

Do you? Might lead someone isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

I don't think she is. I see tangential involvement in the noise that is Jeanne, with no independent pushing being done. But I see how someone could view that as scum hunting.

-Cer

So you think Klingon's not scumhunting but only Drix wants to lynch her? Yet your basis for me is my scumhunting underwhelming?

You left out Brantz from no meaningful content too...

You've asked to wagon Jeanne several times, but she doesn't appear in your list now.

Drixx has asked to wagon Jeanne as policy, basically, not because she's innately scummy, but because her behavior is anfi-town. Brantz posted a bunch in the last two pages, which is why he's not on that short list (although he was originally, until I remembered that he had just said stuff). I also didn't say Drixx wanted to lynch Klingon. I I said he has expressed suspicion of her, but since it's a read based on his previous experiences with her, I can't tell you if it's strong enough to be wagon worthy. Well, I didn't say all of that, but that's the entirety of the situation.

And, your scumhunting isn't underwhelming, you're just IGNORING obvious flaws in the process you've used to reach your conclusions. That's all.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So basically neither of you want to lynch Klingon despite the fact you think she's not scumhunting?

@Suzune, Does RR's lynch list seem weird to you in light of that?

You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I prefer to lynch absolute lurkers over those proffer in questionable content on D1, in the absence of an absolute reason to believe they are scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The sum total of my thoughts on KC are that her approach reminds me an awful lot of the game where she thought I was a bomb and she and Varsoon conspired to get our cop lynched (I derphammered because I was voting on the same page as the "guilty" was given and didn't realize Shinobi was L-1). I actually called out the scum team in play by play what they were doing the next day and they still somehow managed to get me mislynched and the rest of town were like chickens with their heads cut off even though I handed them the scum team on a silver platter.

So yeah... shades of that game. The problem is really simple though: Something that happened in a prior game with different people, a different mod and different roles cannot at all inform me about the alignment of somebody in this game. The most it can do is make me pay more attention to someone.

That's why You (Titus) and KC are both in the "watch closely" pile, for the moment. Both of you represent significant value if you are town and if you are engaged and working for the win. Neither of you should be lynched on day one outside of pretty overwhelming circumstances. You should be aware that you came stupidly close to the line with your stunt. I very nearly made it my mission to channel my emotional turmoil from the last couple months and channel that into pushing a Lynch All Liars policy lynch on you. You lied. A lot. You have a lot of hole that you dig yourself into to dig back out of.

I've been aggressive all game, so please do restrain yourself from trying to slip in comments that inaccurately reflect the flow of the game. Some players are too lazy to go check and will just assume what you say is how things happened, if they are town reading you. The worst thing you can do (as either alignment) is misrepresent the way things in the game happen. Once you are on the record manipulating things, then you have some 'splainin to do. And you ... dear Titus ... have some 'splainin to do.

Love and Cookies with Warm Milk Hot Chocolate,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, There is no hole for me to dig myself out of. You always go back to your "disagreements" on my gambit when I call you out for your inconsistent read patterns.

Of course KC has value to town. That's if she's scumhunting.

If you think she's not, then you should be willing to lynch her.

I, at least, fail to see inconsistencies. There is a rather high threshold of suspicion required before we earnestly desire someone's lynch, and that threshold hasn't been met yet. In the absence of anyone exceeding said threshold, I like lynching lurkers. Not sure where the inconsistency is.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OK, so stuff happened and I'm at L-1. Want me to claim now?

You're L-3. Titus, don't waste your time.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Would the members of the LQ wagon please kindly state your reasons for being on said wagon? And, LQ, you haven't told me why Jeanne is scum to you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Titus, wanna answer a question about Jeanne for me, since she's not here?

1) When were you invited into this neighborhood? Were you both there at the start of the game, or did she invite you at some point during the day?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Would the members of the LQ wagon please kindly state your reasons for being on said wagon? And, LQ, you haven't told me why Jeanne is scum to you.

-Cerb

I'm having second thoughts about Jeanne11 being Scum. I was thinking recently that she could be lyncher or something, since that is what makes the most sense fmpov, but I don't know for sure. My read on her is that she doesn't make any sense. Its actually really hard to get a good read on, since she has been very poor at explaining her thought process. I mean that alone can be interpreted as many different things with different looks. I was thinking she was Scum because she was pushing me so much and I'm Town so she could be looking for a mis-lynch out of it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dislike this answer. The entirety of your reasoning was "Oh, she's pushing me and I'm town therefore shes's scum"? That's the same reasoning she has been using. Everybody is scum because people keep questioning her.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Would the members of the LQ wagon please kindly state your reasons for being on said wagon? And, LQ, you haven't told me why Jeanne is scum to you.

-Cerb

I'm having second thoughts about Jeanne11 being Scum. I was thinking recently that she could be lyncher or something, since that is what makes the most sense fmpov, but I don't know for sure. My read on her is that she doesn't make any sense. Its actually really hard to get a good read on, since she has been very poor at explaining her thought process. I mean that alone can be interpreted as many different things with different looks. I was thinking she was Scum because she was pushing me so much and I'm Town so she could be looking for a mis-lynch out of it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dislike this answer. The entirety of your reasoning was "Oh, she's pushing me and I'm town therefore shes's scum"? That's the same reasoning she has been using. Everybody is scum because people keep questioning her.

-Cerb

I dislike it for other reasons. Are you really suggesting that Lyncher (a wholly negative utility role to balance a powerful town) is the most reasonable thing you can think of that might be motivating Jeanne, LQ?

Would the members of the LQ wagon please kindly state your reasons for being on said wagon?

-Cerb

To placate Jeanne11.
~Yukari

That's a terrible reason to join a wagon. Even if you were in a game with an Innocent Child, that doesn't make them infallible. You still need to engage your own brain. You are essentially saying, ahead of time, "hey don't blame me if LQ flips scum ... I'm just on the wagon to placate someone who was vomiting posts into the thread like it was going out of style."

Furthermore, if you

were

going to vote just to placate someone, shouldn't you choose someone who

isn't

in the pile of people who, if town, scum will never kill and who is playing quite poorly (See too many posts to list individually, but just off the top of my head: threatening to rage quit, threatening to replace out, referring to some other game where she was right and asserting that must make her right here and telling us we're stupid if we don't just believe whatever she says without thinking about it, etc....) and therefore has to be lynched while we still know we have mislynches to spare. At this point, anyone who claims they are comfortable with Jeanne in M/LYLO is either lying or scum.

She is basically what Grapes was in Steven Universe. He had to be lynched and if he had accepted his lynch, the plan we laid out resulted in a town win the very next day. Instead he put his own personal whims above his win condition and changed the game state from (literally)

guaranteed town win

to back being contested, and ultimately that act handed Scum a win. Bad play by townies at a critical moment is something we're not willing to allow again.

So either Jeanne will stop the nonsense or she has to be lynched at some point early enough in the game that if she is actually town it won't cost us the game. One thing I am certain of is that the Jeanne we've seen posting today, if town and alive all the way to M/LYLO is lynchbait. She takes questioning of her reasoning super personally and seems to be legitimately emotionally hurt and offended if someone isn't town reading her. That's not something you want in M/LYLO


~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@Titus: So RR only mentions Klingon a few times, but they seem to have hydra dissonance about her. From what I can tell Cerb is lightly town reading her (from his post about her "content") and Drixx has a gut feeling scummy read. But the fence sitting about it is somewhat bothersome, you would think by now they would have decided which of their thought processes they wanted to pursue on her. And Klingon only really mentions RR to give them a flimsy town lean read. I think if we lynch either of them and that one flips scum then we should potentially pursue the other the next day, but I am not convinced that either should be on the block today. (I am null-town on RR right now, and null-scum on Kling, but my feelings toward both aren't very strong)

This is a legitimately awful post, and you are way better than this BRantz. You know that neither Cerberus nor I place any stock in "gut" anything. A "gut" read is basically one of three things:

1.) Indigestion
2.) Some coincidental occurrences in a game which remind you of some other game. Rationally speaking, what happens in a prior game cannot tell you anything about the current game.
3.) Your brain has caught something you aren't fully consciously aware of. In this case, you have to go find it and then it's not "gut" anymore because you found the reason.


It's not exactly a secret that my feeling about KC is firmly in the #2 category. There's no reason I would push someone on day one for something like that. If it persists into day 2, then I start to look for possible clues that it might be a #3 situation, and what I find I share.

But you already knew that, which makes me question the motives of your post. You

won't

be lynching us today; I can guarantee you that. If there is a vigilante, please do us all a favor and don't try to be a hero vig. Shooting us would be disastrous for town and make you a zero vig. Say no to being zero vig.

Oh ... and you may want to redefined what you view as hydra dissonance. Cerberus and I talk to each other. A lot. You may want to view this hydra's topics. One of them is our Steven Universe PT. I don't think you'll want to read it all as it's roughly 65,000 words if you remove the timestamps and our names from the logged conversations. There's a difference about how open we are in sharing times when we aren't both sure of one thing or another and actual hydra dissonance where you see one head literally fighting the other and you see voting and unvoting and a whole messy spectacle.


Love anyway,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Would the members of the LQ wagon please kindly state your reasons for being on said wagon? And, LQ, you haven't told me why Jeanne is scum to you.

-Cerb

I'm having second thoughts about Jeanne11 being Scum. I was thinking recently that she could be lyncher or something, since that is what makes the most sense fmpov, but I don't know for sure. My read on her is that she doesn't make any sense. Its actually really hard to get a good read on, since she has been very poor at explaining her thought process. I mean that alone can be interpreted as many different things with different looks. I was thinking she was Scum because she was pushing me so much and I'm Town so she could be looking for a mis-lynch out of it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dislike this answer. The entirety of your reasoning was "Oh, she's pushing me and I'm town therefore shes's scum"? That's the same reasoning she has been using. Everybody is scum because people keep questioning her.

-Cerb

I dislike it for other reasons. Are you really suggesting that Lyncher (a wholly negative utility role to balance a powerful town) is the most reasonable thing you can think of that might be motivating Jeanne, LQ?

Would the members of the LQ wagon please kindly state your reasons for being on said wagon?

-Cerb

To placate Jeanne11.
~Yukari

That's a terrible reason to join a wagon. Even if you were in a game with an Innocent Child, that doesn't make them infallible. You still need to engage your own brain. You are essentially saying, ahead of time, "hey don't blame me if LQ flips

TOWN

... I'm just on the wagon to placate someone who was vomiting posts into the thread like it was going out of style."

Furthermore, if you

were

going to vote just to placate someone, shouldn't you choose someone who

isn't

in the pile of people who, if town, scum will never kill and who is playing quite poorly (See too many posts to list individually, but just off the top of my head: threatening to rage quit, threatening to replace out, referring to some other game where she was right and asserting that must make her right here and telling us we're stupid if we don't just believe whatever she says without thinking about it, etc....) and therefore has to be lynched while we still know we have mislynches to spare. At this point, anyone who claims they are comfortable with Jeanne in M/LYLO is either lying or scum.

She is basically what Grapes was in Steven Universe. He had to be lynched and if he had accepted his lynch, the plan we laid out resulted in a town win the very next day. Instead he put his own personal whims above his win condition and changed the game state from (literally)

guaranteed town win

to back being contested, and ultimately that act handed Scum a win. Bad play by townies at a critical moment is something we're not willing to allow again.

So either Jeanne will stop the nonsense or she has to be lynched at some point early enough in the game that if she is actually town it won't cost us the game. One thing I am certain of is that the Jeanne we've seen posting today, if town and alive all the way to M/LYLO is lynchbait. She takes questioning of her reasoning super personally and seems to be legitimately emotionally hurt and offended if someone isn't town reading her. That's not something you want in M/LYLO

~Drixx

Fixed that for myself. Posting at 3am after a work day is perhaps not the best idea.

[Reasonably Rational]

Would the members of the LQ wagon please kindly state your reasons for being on said wagon? And, LQ, you haven't told me why Jeanne is scum to you.

-Cerb

I'm having second thoughts about Jeanne11 being Scum. I was thinking recently that she could be lyncher or something, since that is what makes the most sense fmpov, but I don't know for sure. My read on her is that she doesn't make any sense. Its actually really hard to get a good read on, since she has been very poor at explaining her thought process. I mean that alone can be interpreted as many different things with different looks. I was thinking she was Scum because she was pushing me so much and I'm Town so she could be looking for a mis-lynch out of it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dislike this answer. The entirety of your reasoning was "Oh, she's pushing me and I'm town therefore shes's scum"? That's the same reasoning she has been using. Everybody is scum because people keep questioning her.

-Cerb

I dislike it for other reasons. Are you really suggesting that Lyncher (a wholly negative utility role to balance a powerful town) is the most reasonable thing you can think of that might be motivating Jeanne, LQ?

I think it needs to be considered. I will say that what I have seen from them elsewhere on the site that the are a very emotionally charged person and the have done things a bit unnecessary in the past. I believe She has claimed Scum in her first post in one game and even gave away why her teammates were in a cryptic way in that post. She was Scum that game. That is the type of player we are dealing with. I know no one is strictly rational, but she is so far removed from having premise of a logical base that its a bit getting use to to say the least. That is why I am not trying to rule out anything at this point.

Why are you giving a fluff answer and not speaking to the main point that I raised? Do you agree or disagree with me that Jeanne cannot be allowed to live into M/LYLO?

Okay I'm hydra slipping now. Time for sleep. Picking it up for the Hydra ISO.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Have the dog vote. Confirm you are likely the dog.

It's a dragon, not a dog. Can't believe nobody else took the time to see who Bright is. LQ, why did you move your votes the way you did during the war?

Titus: we aren't you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Have the dog vote. Confirm you are likely the dog.

Why does this matter so much?

Because I don't think you're the dog.

If your gambit did anything, it showed there are potential ties between LQ/Pistachion/Bright, and Wgeurts, BM, and myself. With that information, why is it unlikely that LQ controls the dog?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Damnit I called it a dog and not a dragon again.

Hmm I think I'd need to go over the their ISO's in combination to see if you're right. I do know he and Bright ended up voting the same person during the War, who LQ was pushing, but I don't recall anything about Brights previous or subsequent votes.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, any particular reason why scum LQ wouldn't have self hammered earlier, since sentiment is so clearly against him?
Also, LQ, ya know, if you control Bright you could vote Titus with both ykur votes, and I'll vote her again, and hopefully wgeurts and BM will be there, and then she's L-3!

Unless, of course, you think she's town.

And yeah, it's pretty easy to say Bright is gonna vote x, then go vote x. Also, why did you claim the BP? And why were you concerned about scum knowing you were the double voter? That just increases the likelihood that they shoot at you, which makes your bp relevant.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, Why would he hammer if his buddies won't bus and there are enough lurkers to where a deadline wagon can be swung?

That's exactly what your post is trying to have LQ do anyway despite you realizing the flaws in LQ's claim.

@LQ, I'm still waiting...vote anyone. Hell vote Varsoon is you can't even fathom a scumread.

How could a deadline wagon be swung? The more lurkers there are, the more apathetic town is, the more likely they are to just lynch whoever the biggest wagon is.

Titus, twice now Drixx and I have told you that there won't be a mislynch happening on us. Ever. And not just because I've never been mislynched. If you're town, it would be far more productive to look at things through the lens of RR is town, rather than RR is scum. It will save you a lot of time being wrong.

I will say though, the lack of action by LQ does make it infinitely more likely that he's scum than town, which means you're *probably* town, which means we're wrong about each other.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's been over 45 minutes since your claim...and you've made multiple posts in between. There's no indication based on Brights previous votes that there's any sort of limitation on frequency of posting, and even if there were, the slot hasn't posted for awhile...so...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well, sure, it's possible to do so, but not without blatantly creating the counterwagon and getting yourself lynched on subsequent days. So, it's not plausibly done in a fashion scum would be likely to do it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, what do you think of Bright voting Elbrin when you said we should kill the dog?

I think it was extremely weird. Without knowing who it belongs to, I can't say speculate further. Also, it's a dragon. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Why not just say that at the time?

Because Bright had not displayed any ability to communicate without jumping through hoops I didn't feel like jumping through, and clearly their owner wasn't interested in exposing themselves.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*sigh* LQ consistently makes little enough sense that I can't just call his behavior scum, but none of this is verifiable. We know he controls the dragon, or he's scum and one of his teammates is just watching, and/or they have daytalk.

Need you to answer my questions now LQ.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, if I assume Jeanne is town and can create this hood, scum day talk is extremely likely.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, any particular reason why scum LQ wouldn't have self hammered earlier, since sentiment is so clearly against him?
Also, LQ, ya know, if you control Bright you could vote Titus with both ykur votes, and I'll vote her again, and hopefully wgeurts and BM will be there, and then she's L-3!

Unless, of course, you think she's town.

And yeah, it's pretty easy to say Bright is gonna vote x, then go vote x.

Also, why did you claim the BP? And why were you concerned about scum knowing you were the double voter? That just increases the likelihood that they shoot at you, which makes your bp relevant.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

5 days is 120 hours. Anyone freaking out over possibly not lynching when we have someone at L-2 with 120 hours left is insane.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

5 days is 120 hours. Anyone freaking out over possibly not lynching when we have someone at L-2 with 120 hours left is insane.

-Cerb

Can you actually push your scumreads Tia.

Tia? I'm at work, I can't do much beyond reacting to what was said most recently.

I'm pretty much always here. A no lynch won't happen.

-Cerb

I'm pretty much always here, too.
-Varsy

[Reasonably Rational]

Jeanne, what is your flavor?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm just going to toss this out there.

When we were chosen to join the private topic, it said we had been invited to the strategy table

. Random strangers would not be invited to the strategy table on the battlefield, therefore, i think it cannot be a mafia ability. hm, but her reaction was so...but logically speaking it makes sense.

Elaborate on this please. I've heard a couple different things so far.

1) Titus can send out two messages per day
2) Jeanne can invite one person to a neighborhood.

Neither of those correspond with you being invited to some other PT.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Jumping in. Jeanne can swap her neighbor. When Suzune was speaking there, I was not.

You probably shouldn't have actually answered that question.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

while ignoring any and all reasonable posts I make to portray me as an idiot.

I did have a death in my close extended family (an Uncle) and a V/LA, I did at least skim the pages I missed while dealing with that. I don't recall any reasonable posts from you.

I

do

recall you being repeatedly coached by Titus (something Titus would never sit and allow another player to do to someone as difficult to read as you, and she knows it). I also recall you being part of the web of lies Titus spun supposedly to try and catch scum, but she somehow didn't actually think through the motives and such ahead of time to have reliable predictions of how various parties would respond. The lie about the day ending with this mechanic was the most egregious because the mod never said that in the PM that got sent out, so any

competent

scum knew it was a trap.

You willingly participated in an intentional deception with, at best, a slim chance of any town benefit with a very large probability that the results can be skewed to fit any theory. The whole thing looks like a Titus style scum ploy to produce things she can use to try and earn town cred and get mislynches on townies who might be a threat. You participated in that. Ever hear of the phrase "Guilt by association"?

Because RR is scum and Elbirn is not.

We're not scum. You won't be pushing a lynch on us, ever. Get over yourself already.

Bad reasoning? If anyone has it, it's RR. He ignores all my posts, even the good ones, why again?

I'm sorry ... you made any good posts? Can you maybe give me a summary? I don't think I can bring myself to read your ISO. You admit you are intentionally acting like a crazy person, so please no AtE or anything. I'm just being bluntly honest with you.

Jumping in. Jeanne can swap her neighbor. When Suzune was speaking there, I was not.

This kind of answering for another player is super scummy, and you wouldn't

ever

allow another player to get away with doing it; especially not coaching someone like Jeanne who is intentionally spewing inane posts into the thread and making herself a necessary lynch before endgame because no sane town player at this juncture wants her anywhere near M/LYLO.

So the question is ... why are you answering for her and coaching her?


~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

One last thing: Mu, mu.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Let me point you to something, and remind you of exactly what significance should be placed on whether or not we are voting.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7162298

Above we are CERTAIN that Titus is scum, make a case, and don't even vote her. Our voice is our tool, not our vote. Our vote gets used strategically.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Stop spamming with irrelevant shit and not answering questions.

I have yet to see a question I should dignify with an answer that I haven't answered. If I've missed one let me know.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I said questions I should dignify with an answer. Maybe if you phrase it in a fashion that doesn't create a false dichotomy I would answer.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Finally home yay!

Okay, the last sentence of your previous post. This isn't an either/or situation. I couldn't care less about pissing anyone off, ever, and as my previous post which you disregarded displayed, me voting for the dog is, well, meaningless. There's no reason to vote for anyone right now, so I see no reason to change where my vote is.

Now, regarding the PM thing. First of all, had you taken the time to properly query the mod regarding your role, I am sure he would have told you exactly what information he would have shared with the rest of the town about how your power functioned, enough so that your gambit would have been more effective. The PM thing isn't even the issue though. The issue is the fact that it should have been obvious to any scum team that, given that said power wasn't originating from them, it was being used to assist some other faction. With that knowledge, they could have reacted in a number of ways, but none of those ways are as simple as "haha I'm gonna try to force a mislynch on D1 even though if there is a 3 member scum team in a 13 player game and none of us vote town has to have 80% of their population vote for the same person to successfully lynch someone, which means if we want there to be a no lynch or a mislynch we have much stronger mundane ways of influencing the vote, and even if this power does function, the WORST CASE scenario is town loses a lynch"

The ONLY scenario in which scum would act in a fashion consistent with your expectations is if they had someone on their team who was close to being lynched and they were bussing them and saw an opportunity to dissolve that wagon...but even then...it would be a foolish risk to take!

Anyways. You are correct, the entire discussion about your gambit is basically pointless. I say it's terrible and it was useless and the claims you're making about it are untrue, you disagree. blah blah blah there.

-Cerb

Wait, now you're calling it a dog, too?
D:

[Reasonably Rational]

Since when can people unvote after someone hammers?

Untrue. Titus moved her vote.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I never said the dogs owner was scummy. Never. LQ's explanation of his power changes that situation from appearing to be 100% scum delaying on a claim he can't back up, to possibly being an honest claim, which returns the situation to it's previous state. BM hasn't said anything, and I told you I was at work all day and all I could really do was respond to posts. Don't blame me for not pushing people when I'm not in a position to look through what they've said and see what needs to be said. I've already explained the Klingon situation...I'm not sure what you're looking for here from me. Half this playerlist knows Drixx and myself and should be aware, as you are, that we don't vote often. I don't see any actual motivation, either town or scum, for your stance on this matter. From what we've already said, it should be incredibly obvious that there is no chance were not town, so if you're just trying to sort us, you're way behind...and if you're not trying to sort us, what exactly are you doing?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*shrug* I said above, I use my vote strategically. In this case, it was to determine whether or not the Bright slot could be voted for. I don't care enough beyond that to unvote, and there's no place where I would prefer to place my vote right now.

Am I going to have to ignore you too, Titus, to keep the thread from exploding with noise? Serious question. You're going on at great length about absurd minutiae that aren't alignment indicative in any way.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So someone who can neighborize one person at a time, willingly participated in outright lying to the town, has spewed a very large amount of noise into the game making it difficult nigh upon impossible to read them, and who is being actively coached by Titus ... and we're supposed to just believe that's town because...?

Titus, meanwhile, is doing things she scum reads other players for doing, including openly and frequently coaching players, and we're supposed to believe she's town because...?

The "war" mechanic that happened today generated a vote count afterwards. I could interpret that vote count to paint every single player in the game as scum, were I inclined to do something as irrational as start with the premise that someone is scum and then mangle the data and that person's posts to support that conclusion. And yet, Titus claims to have learned (past tense in her phrasing) as "shitton" from doing it. She just can't share it right now because it won't mean anything until later. So apparently it isn't actually learned yet.

There's a saying. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. What it means, for those who aren't good with idioms, is that the same standard should be applied to everyone. Titus

should

be familiar with the concept, but doesn't seem to mind double standards that benefit her.

Love, with exasperation,
Drixx

P.S. - Jeanne ... I'm still waiting for you to summarize your "good posts" for me. You wouldn't want to make me read through 1500+ posts when you're literally

begging

me to comment on them ... would you?

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon you have lied to me you are not always here!!!!

Also, I really really really like the set of game events in the first post. It helps a lot when I'm trying to iso someone and identify exactly what point during the events of a day something was said.

Titus, my read on you isn't waffling at all. The only tiny sign if waffling there is was my statement that if LQ was scum, you were very likely town, and that's because this sequence of events doesn't make sense with LQ and you as both scum.

LQ: fyi, as long as your bulletproof gets used, you bought the town an extra day. The only added value to getting a save in in LYLO is the pool of suspects is smaller and thus town is less likely to mislynch using the time you've given them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I know, that's why I said that. Also, get RR top read my case, please. You're the only one he'll listen to.

LQ's dead, I read your case already, I told you that, and I also said that your case actually made me feel more certain that he was town, because the thinks you were scum reading him for I didn't feel were scummy. I was going to go over it today, since I have this afternoon free, but it's irrelevant now that LQ has been hammered, and we shall find out what happens.

wgeurts: I recommend not falling into the belief that LQ town=Titus scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Cerberus Then explain why he didn't know what AUA was?! I need to hear it from you! >.<

I didn't know what AUA was at first(same with a number of people). AUA is mentioned in the sample role PM shown in the second post of this game. Someone making the connection or not isn't alignment indicative, since everyone was aware of what the town faction was called. I would actually argue that those who immediately knew what was being referenced or chose to utilize that information as a scum tell are more likely to be scum themselves, because town are much less attentive to things than scum are, generally speaking, and I couldn't imagine scum not realizing what AUA meant...while scum would know that town is inattentive and could choose to make that point an issue so as to create grounds for scumreading people. I'll be rather upset if that was really the crux of this push against LQ, regardless of his flip, because a push based on something like that is terrible.

And are you saying that due to fact or are you biased against whatever I say?

There are no facts right now Jeanne, other than my opinions. My read of LQ's posts was different than your own, and that happens. It's perfectly reasonable, different people get different things out of the posts others make. I'm not biased against what you say other than in that I made the decision about 48 hours ago to not respond to your posts for the rest of the day phase, because you were spamming the thread and forcing us into a really bad situation. Right now we'll have a flip on LQ, and a thread full of conversation between Titus, myself, LQ, and you(there are others there, but they've said way less). That is not conducive for finding scum, ESPECIALLY if there is no scum in that group.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I have my sights set on you next, RR.

That's okay, I'll enjoy watching you fail.

Titus being killed, and there only being one kill, simplifies things immensely. Extremely likely Jeanne is town at this point. I was suspicious that there was a sk(given scum bp, and scum having a power to increase their influence on votes, thus supporting the idea that there was a smaller scum team+sk setup) and one of jeanne/Titus was the sk, but that scenario is much less likely at this point.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You who wanted to oust Titus, Ranger and myself because we pegged your partner and were right on the money. The fact that one of us perished only drives the nail in deeper. She was killed by you, wasn't she?

Absolutely Jeanne. That is definitely what happened. I am indeed a fool who went out on a limb to attempt to blatantly protect my scum buddy, and then followed that up by killing titus, the weaker of the roles outed between the two of you, and someone who I spent the entire day arguing with, who I know to be someone capable of being reasoned with, unlike yourself.

I definitely did that. 100% of the time when that sequence of events happens, the person in my position is scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR acted kind of desperate in this game, flailing whenever someone attacked him and demanding the objective proof from Kari while accusing me of the same thing. I am gonna oust you real hard, RR.

I actually don't think I've ever flailed in a game. Objective proof *is* required from all parties. Being lucky and hitting scum on D1 due to flawed logic is nothing more than that, being "lucky". I have yet to see someone present a logical, objective case, about any of the slots in this game, including LQ. The fact that he was scum means you got lucky, NOT that your case was strong enough to stand on it's own merits.

I think we're long last theory talk though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR Objective proof is required from everyone, you say? Then explain to me just how was LQ magically excluded from giving any when I asked him multiple times to give some? Or is it then only he and yourself are excluded from giving any while the rest of us have to give it?

Go reread D1. I didn't interact with LQ at all except at the end of the day when he started saying things that didn't make sense. I also expressed at that time that it was seeming more likely that he was scum, and if he was, then Titus was almost definitely town (and by extension, so are you, though I didn't actually say that part.) There was no point at which I excused LQ. I actually asked him to make a case against you, and he never did.

Pay more attention to what actually happened, the facts of what was said, and less attention to how you THINK things happened.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

But you're right, let's have a nice long chat. Me, you, Elbirn and Suzune.

And Ranger! You forgot Ranger, don't want her to feel left out.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways. Today should be spent pressuring BM, pistachion, and Klingon. We need thoughts on everything from those 3 slots.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and to whoever did that. You know who you are. We won't be doing anything with it without overwhelming evidence that it's a positive thing for the town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Speaking about Ranger, you threw her under the bus because she relied on gut, as did I and wgeurts. Funny thing is, while he's excluded, me and Ranger be damned for relying on gut. What's wrong with gut reads, may I ask? Gut reads pegged one scum.

I dont recall wgeurts ever referencing a gut read. He referred to exact aspects of people's play as why he felt the way he did about them, if I'm recalling correctly. Rangers issue was there were 2 posts made by wgeurts before she marked him. That's a stupid read, not a gut read.

When I'm not on mobile I will gladly tell you exactly what's wrong with gut reads. Hopefully Drixx already expressed it somewhere in the game so I can just quote him. :p the short version, though, is that gut reads without logic backing them up are as likely to be detecting a dislike for someone's playstyle, a pr, or simply you having a bad day, as they are to catch scum. They are inconsistent and worthless when used by themselves, and anyone who relies on gut is a knuckle dragging idiot in my opinion. This isn't intended as a personal attack against anyimone, but it is an honest expression of my opinion of that particular play style.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, you say that Titus is weaker of the two? Well, I somehow doubt that. However, even if it's true, she is also smarter. That is precisely why you killed her. You knew I was emotionally driven and you thought you could use that to throw us townies into chaos.

p-edit: Don't count on us following you. I will do as Titus told me to, and that means pressuring you and Klingon.

Oh, about this: yes, because YOU outed her ability being limited to sending two messages, and the two of you together outed that your ability allows MULTIPLE DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITHIN THE SAME DAY to join the PT with you(at different times, yes) AND she used her other ability already, it was OBVIOUS to anyone with half a brain that your role was objectively stronger for organizing town than her own, and thus said role is more of a threat. Yes, Titus is, in my experience at least, a stronger and more threatening player who was more likely to better utilize their power than yourself, especially without her advice, but to claim that your power isn't stronger than hers is nonsensical.

Kari: 1/3 isn't terrible.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I believe wgeurts did says he gut reads somewhere in the thread.

Found it

Yes please do, gut reads are a thing!

So you know she is more reasonable than I? She was killed instead of me. Sounds like a certain scum decided to remove a player who is the real threat and manipulate the hell out of Elenor. Well, that's not gonna happen.

I expressly said earlier that we can reason with Titus. It sounds more like scum left you alive because you are not a voice town can rally behind because you don't make sense and you can't be reasoned with. Wgeurts not having our disdain for gut does not mean in his play in this game he used gut as a reason for any beliefs he had. You are mistaking the reason why we had issues with yourself and ranger. Accepting gut is not the same as relying on it. Accepting it is naive, imo, but relying on it is foolish and unacceptable to us.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That is what they said. Look at them say that scum left me alive because I am not good to rally behind. You say I don't have Titus' advice, but I still do. Her post-death advice. And I also have the farm + Ranger, who are likely to stand together with me.

Yes, and hopefully you'll listen to her advice. The problem though, is that without her you can't react to new developments the way she would. *sigh* Seriously Jeanne, it's super useless for us to have this particular conversation.

Is there something actually useful to the game you'd like to discuss?

-Cerb

Pedit: I couldn't possibly care less about how poorly my lack of respect for an incompetent play style sits with you. Or anyone for that matter. I will gladly educate anyone about WHY that particular playstyle is incompetent, but I won't pretend I think it's something other than terrible.

Pedit again: what you're doing isn't pushing. I feel no pressure from you. What you're doing is spamming the thread with worthless stuff. Go through our iso. Identify where we were inconsistent in our reads and actions (and do so logically, based off of just what we said, not what you thought we meant), and ask us about those things. Force us to come up with excuses for thingd. Trap us in contradictions. That's how you push us. Not spewing the crap you're currently utilizing.

[Reasonably Rational]

Stop it Jeanne. Seriously. Nobody demonized you (or anyone else). You can look through the ISO and find my thoughts on GUT. The only thing that having a gut read is good for is to alert you. You still need to actually do the work and figure out what your brain caught subconsciously and figure out whether you actually found something or if it's a false positive. There are a lot of things that can make your gut react which have nothing to do with alignment.

Objectively speaking, your posting style has been manic and borderline nonsensical so far this game. Titus essentially told you what to do yesterday and the only time you made any sense is when you listened to her. Titus is dead now and confirmed town, so we can at least trust that her motives were good, but just blindly accepting her day 1 reads as being actually correct would be a gigantic mistake.

I'm going to say this as clearly as I possibly can:

You are not going to get us lynched today, or any other day this game. All you will accomplish in trying to push us is giving scum cover to hide in. You should invite us into your strategy room if you want to know why you will be unable to lynch us. We'd rather scum stay in the dark on this one.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

One last thing: I see. You're unlynchable.

Absolutely. In this game. And most others. But DEFINITELY in this game.

-Cerb

Pedit: what defense of LQ was made yeaterday? I'm fairly certain I said that nothing he had claimed was alignment indicative, and that was it. And what would be the scum motivation in defending LQ?

[Reasonably Rational]

1) yes, because your post called to light things that I viewed differently from you. I still maintain that the things which you viewed as scummy weren't, and you simply got lucky.

2) exactly how bad at this game do you think we are? Seriously? LQ had how many votes on him? He was L-1 hoe many times? It's incredibly stupid to expose yourself as scum covering for a buddy in such a compromised position.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Titus and I discussed this in private. Pushing RR and Klingon was her idea. Had she not been killed, she would confirm this.

I hate to burst your bubble but I do not follow Titus's orders blindly. He has gotten my lynched on orders and plans before. I tend to think for myself. So as glad as I am that you two planned something. I am not in on it this time and therefore, I will chase leads that I think are important.

Which leads are those? You said pistachion is lynchbait?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Here's the exact quote, with relevant part bolded.

I read everything. I don't like Jeannes case as presented, I read a number of the things she calls scummy as null at worst. I'll go over those differences in opinion in detail WAY later tonight (it is, after all, Guy Fawkes Day, and I muse watch V for Vendetta when I get home. )

The TL;DR version, however, is that my null read on LQ has actually shifted to a slight town read based on what Jeanne said. Not that it matters(I wasn't going to be on a LQ wagon anyways), but it might inspire me to actually defend him, which, contrary to prior accusations levelled at other's, isn't something anyone has actually done yet.

-Cerb

What part of that is a defense of LQ? It said I might be inspired to defend him, (inspirarion which disappeared when he claimed the dragon and bp amd showed that his play wasn't reasonable for the role he claimed) but it looks more like I was expressing disdain for your case more than I was defending him...

-Cerb

Pedit: I'm not certain what you're asking? Are you implying that I, as scum, might be now regretting not killing you?

Oh titus stuff. Nice. I shall read.

[Reasonably Rational]

Pisachion would be easy to make a case on they have few posts and none of them are particularly townie, although a couple could have been sorted into that pile. I would be interested in seeing what they have today. However, I fear that it would be a quick lynch if people started to rally against them. While the speed of the lynch might tell us things as well...

Goodness it is so confusing to look at people's ISO because half the people are only talking to Jeanne about what she thinks and this is throwing off my ability to detect weirdness.

However, for today I think that Kling is probably a good target, however I would also be interested in pushing BRantz for more information on him. Most of his posts yesterday were trying to settle Jeanne and this means we got little of his opinions. That is kind of safe pushing Jeanne because as long as you side with her you are her friend.

Therefore, I think we need to find out what people are thinking.

p-edit x9, this is the response to your question RR

Agreed. Yesterday, as I think I warned, we learned about LQ, Jeanne, and Titus only. We should try to prevent the conversation from being so focused again today.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I am never inviting you to the farm, ever. I am not letting you on our conversation that you can possibly utilize against us. Titus thinks you and Klingon are scum and that's that. As per her advice, I am gonna retire now and let you do your thing. I've said what she wanted me to say for now. SYL.

Titus is not infallible, and has a history of being unable to read us.

1. You did say "Based on Jeanne's post, I now have LQ as slight town read and I am seriously considering defending him, something that, contrary to popular belief, hasn't been done before.'
You really thought I wouldn't notice. I notice things that others overlook.

2. Because he's their scumbuddy?

You really should go look at Steven Universe. We were Innocent Child that game, and I was literally making a post telling people to withhold judgment and see if there was a reasonable explanation for tracker results and a scum self hammered while I was making the post. Giving people the the benefit of the doubt and wanting to have rational reasons to vote for them is how both Cerb and I play. It's kind of hilarious that Titus knew that and she and one of her scum partners in SU mocked me for defending scum, when all I was really doing was encouraging people to not be hasty and jump to conclusions.

So Titus

knows

how we approach things, and she

knows

she can't read us, and she gave you terrible advice.

~Drixx


P-Edit - 90% Brantz? More like 95% or higher.

P-Edit2 - Just LOL @ Jeanne.

P-Edit3 - Awful by Titus. I hope Titus is spoiled and knows the setup now so she can realize just how badly her "advice" is going to screw the town if it gets listened to.

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR So you say 'Titus: bad for town' and think town will magically believe you without you even explaining why? Now it's my turn to LoL at you.

@Suzune They do have a choice. I strongly believe there's a vig in this game......

p-edit: Because I scumhunt ABR style. Never lose sight of the target. I am not losing sight of the target, no matter what.

@Ranger Come here and assist me, will you?

I already told you to invite us into your thing and we can tell you what we are and give you reasonable evidence of it, and then you could stop fucking up the game by spewing noise into the game.

Also ... "never lose sight of the target" is essentially Forrest Gump level play if you are targeting someone without any actual reasoning. You don't have any actual reasons for targeting us.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

I said "town would never leave me alive". RR stressed repeatedly that I should be vigged. Why wasn't it done?

Not so. I said that no sane townie would want you in the end game and thus we will have to lynch you before end game.

Your ability is/would be incredibly useful for town, but just because your role has high town utility ... that doesn't mean you are actually town. In SU, as Titus pointed out herself, Titus was an inventor who could hand out 1-shot doctor usages. That's a high town utility ability which was given to scum. We are in a game with the same mod, so it's plausible that you have a high town utility role but are actually scum.

But even if we posit that you are town, there's still no way that any sane townie wants you in M/LYLO, because your posting makes you lynchbait. Asserting that you need to be out of the game before M/LYLO is not the same thing as calling for you to be vigged.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, just because you're all logic doesn't mean you're above the rest of us. Your opinion isn't the only thing that matters. Everyone's opinion matters.

We don't claim that we're better than other people. We, in fact, have notable weaknesses in our game because of our approach.

As far as opinions go ... everyone is

entitled

to have their own opinion. Not all opinions are equally valid. If an opinion is Logically bad, it should be rejected. If you want your opinion to have any weight with us, you need to have logical reasons to support it.

~Drixx

P.S. - I read Titus' readwall. The whole thing is based upon assumptions that don't have any logical basis. Day one theories are not evidence. Given what we know, that read wall is full of hilariously bad assumptions and bad advice.

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, just because you're all logic doesn't mean you're above the rest of us. Your opinion isn't the only thing that matters. Everyone's opinion matters.

All I am saying is that not following your gut does not make someone's posts anti-townie....Jeanne you are unusual. I pride myself on my ability to post as neutrally as possible however you drive me crazy that I cannot do that well...

+1 here. I can tend to the snarky at times, but I try to be warm and friendly and engaging with people.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

I have to say one thing to you all. Last time I blindly trusted someone, I ended up being rickrolled. Even if I get on your bad side, that isn't happening again. You say I trust Titus blindly? Nope, I doubted her all the way until she was confirmed town. Now I trust her because she was confirmed town. Is RR confirmed town? No.

Unless he's an IC, but if he were, mod would say it at the beginning of the game.

p-edit: You're such a hypocrite it's scary. You demonize Titus for assumptions when you yourself are assuming. Until you cough up some objective proof, you have no right to demonize her.

Oh look, Jeanne is now name calling. That's super mature Jeanne. Also, just so we're clear, I was

mocking

Titus' thing that you copied, because I have access to information which allows me to know that basically all of the assumptions she made that led to her conclusions are wrong, so the whole thing is essentially wrong.

Also ... the only thing you can trust about Titus, now that she has flipped town, is her

motives

. You can trust that her motives were genuine and town oriented. Her being town does not mean she was infallible and right. It just means that you can trust she was trying to help town. She unfortunately made a couple of critically bad assumptions and pretty much that whole mess is off target because of that.

Come on, post a long post discrediting each of her posts individually. I want a nice long wall. If you cannot provide that, you'll continue being scum in my eyes.

That's not how it works. You don't get to say "Do X thing or you are scum" to people. Literally five minutes in private invited to your thing and you would understand and drop this bullshit like a bad habit.

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not trying to "bait" you into anything. I'm telling you that if you invite us, I can tell you who we are and what we do and what we know and the impact what we know has on that wall of text you copied (basically renders most, if not all, of it useless). You would then have more information and someone you can trust. You're robbing yourself of that.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

So, who's here and wants to get something done while Jeanne is gone?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cool. . Brantz, Suzune asked you a question earlier and you didn't respond. She wanted to know where you stood on, well, everyone. Care to share?

Suzune, I will be very very sad if you are scum. Just saying.

With that said, I really need to iso both of you guys, and I don't have the ability to really do that right now. Any thoughts either of you would like to share about anything?

I'm extremely confident in the Jeanne is town position. Thoughts on elbirn?

OMG BM IS HERE OMG DUDE TELL US STUFF. No, like seriously. you haven't done anything. :-/ Where are you at with regards to the interactions that occurred yesterday?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR you're either unlynchable, the role, or you're a blowhard, or you're scum trying to sound like you're unlynchable the role so that later on when we call you out on it you can backtrack and claim you're just a blowhard.

Fortunately there's a very easy way to verify this, and if it works you're conftown. Like why the fuck not?

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

After we get a hammer on you and you don't die, can we lynch Blackest Majick please his posts give me cancer

We never claimed to be unlynchable by role. We said that we won't be lynched. Given who we are, we obviously have some reason to say that. Think about it in context of other things we've said and you'll find enlightenment.

Oh and ... rolefishing noted.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Wgeurts, care to unvote for the moment. There's more to be discussed today.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You'll gain the ally whether you invite us or not, the question is just whether or not you're going to force us to let scum in on it too.

Also, see 1711? That's the kind of thing that inspired Drixx to say you should be essentially a policy lynch or vig before rhe end game. The unwillingness to reevaluate. Granted, you haven't played with me before, but it astounds me when people think my behaviors are scummy when there's no motivation for competent scum to behave the way I have.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Or am I supposed to trust you because you say so? The last time I trusted someone without reservations, the game was lost for town. The farm is my safe house, and I am not gonna make the same mistake twice.

You do realize that you don't have any certainties that those you have let in the "farm" are actually town, correct? At least, not any more so than you do for myself.

Anyways, that's fine, I don't believe you think about the game in a fashion which gives me any hope of enjoying a productive conversation with you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I already let Elbirn in, and I only can use it twice per day, so I am not gonna waste the 2nd one on someone who cannot even prove things.

!! WHY DO YOU KEEP TELLING SCUM THINGS THEY DON'T NEED TO KNOW. Seriously Jeanne, stop it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, you say Titus isn't infailable? Well, guess what, you aren't either, so cut the 'trust me because I say so' crap.

That is the point. Having heard our view on people making unsubstantiated claims, what do you think is more likely? That we're just full of shit and apply our standards only to others...or that we have an actual reason to make the statements we're making with 100% certainty?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, you do have double standards. For instance, you said LQ cannot give objective proof and it would be ridiculous to demand it, yet you demanded objective proof from Kari. Explain that.

Again, you are misunderstanding the situation. Kari claimed they would be conftown today. I explained that without objective proof, they could be, at best, obvtown, not conftown. I demanded objective proof if they were going to claim to be conftown. I didn't demand objective proof period, because said proof isn't available...unless someone is actually, legitimately conftown by the standards I outlined in that post.

Moreover, when I asked you to give objective proof using rational approach you claim you use, you don't even give it and instead try to divert my question by asking me questions instead.

Objective proof about WHAT? About the claims we've made? We've already established that we don't feel it would be in the towns best interest to state said proof in thread. I don't think there's anything more that needs to be said.

If you're asking about objective proof regarding anything else, it doesn't exist. Everything else is a matter of, as I said before, probabilities. It is UNLIKELY that you are scum on the same team as LQ at this point, by virtue of your extended push on him. Because there was only one kill last night, it is UNLIKELY that there are two killing factions. Therefore you are LIKELY to be town. That's how it works. None of that is certainty. There is a chance that you're a traitor who didn't know who the members of who team was, and just knew you were recruitable. There's a chance that you are some other killing faction, and you simply didn't succeed on your kill last night. There's a TINY chance that you did indeed bus your teammate that hard on D1, but I see that as hugely unlikely, and I only really include it for the sake of completeness.

pedit: I don't care about proving myself to be town. That couldn't possibly matter less to me. The ONLY reason why I'm considering wasting the time proving why I'm town to you is because you are wasting everyone's time and flooding the thread with nonsense. The point of approaching things rationally isn't to prove things to other people about myself. It's to find out what does and does not make sense in the game as a whole, and what portions of individuals play logically follow vs which ones do not.

Example: You said yesterday you were deliberately acting insane(or at least, this was insinuated in your response to Titus telling you to stop acting insane). Given the strength of your role, that's a very reasonable play to make. It makes scum keep you alive, because of the noise you're providing, and you can do more to organize the town than likely anyone else can. HOWEVER, you exposed that role. You outed it, and thus negated all the benefit of your deliberate insanity. That is just one of the reasons why I was suspicious of you yesterday. Your play simply didn't make sense, the same way LQ's play as a BP didn't make sense.

In any case, with regards to our slot: Except for the thing which I would prefer to NOT mention in the game thread, there is nothing in the game which provides a preponderance of evidence that we are town. I would say that if we had defended LQ, that would be strong cause for anyone who thought us competent to doubt that we could be on the same scum team as him, but we didn't *actually* defend him. It's not up to me to prove you wrong. I don't have any need to do that. All I need to do is find the rest of the scum in this game, and convince you to stop being a distraction they can hide behind.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I only outed myself because wgeurts and LQ kept pressuring me.

You say there's only probability. Yet according to you, there's no possibility that you're scum. None whatsoever. For all I know, you could be scum doing exactly what you said scum would: hiding behind me.

I never said there's no possibility I'm scum to the rest of the game. I said that I wouldn't be lynched. Given the way the game has played out and the information I have, it will be extremely obvious to everyone that there is an extremely small chance I'm scum after I share it, but the chance won't be 0. I'm not an IC, I'll give you that much.

To be perfectly honest, the scum have likely already picked up on what's going on here, because they aren't blinded by paranoia.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well, allow me hoist you by your own petard then. You said that Titus was an inventor who could give 1-shot doctor to players yet was scum, and said that just because a role has town utility doesn't mean it isn't scum. You do realize that same could be applied to you? If you want me to limit it to this thread, LQ was a double voter, scum double voter. Double voter normally has town utility, yet he was scum. Same could apply to you.

And this is yet more evidence that what I'm hinting at can't possibly be something along those lines, or else I wouldn't be expressing it in the terms I'm using.

There is a very, very, very short list of roles which would, given the standards of certainty I've expressed as necessary in this thread, allow me to claim that I am town, I will not be lynched, and I can prove this to you.

Go ahead, make a list for yourself, and you'll be able to figure it out.

Anyways, I'm going back to sleep for a couple hours, no idea why I woke up so early.

-Cerb

Pedit: Jeanne, only if people have claimed to you in your pt will you actually give scum any information they don't already have, in the event that you accidentally invite the wrong person in. At least, that's my understanding of how this functions. Someone new joins an existing topic and can thus read everything which was previously said, right?

[Reasonably Rational]

I had a post prepared and I have the thumbs up from the necessary players to post it.

---

Okay this is just getting silly now. I should have just done this yesterday but Cerberus was all over me to wait for Wguerts to be around, and since the thread unlocked at like 1am Wguerts time, that was too long for me to stay up. Like seriously ... we could have done without all the noise and just claimed this right away. Our original plan was to claim the day after the first mislynch, but with a scum going down on day one, we feel like we can now force the scum into having only bad choices.

We (RR) know, from mod confirmation, that Wguerts is town. Wguerts knows, from mod confirmation, that we are town. Wguerts and us (RR) may or may not know of another confirmed town. What does that make? A Masonry. Yep ... we're Masons, which should have been a blinking neon sign obvious to anyone paying attention when I hard defended Wguerts yesterday and said he was town. Period. Allow me to quote a post I made and make it super clear for you:

Da

m

n that's a really scummy move and

REALLY

scummy post here, Titus. Th

a

t series of posts by you before the look made it seem like there was only two people to vote for prior to that thing triggering, with all that encoded posts bullshit you were doing in the thread. Ju

s

t because you have an interesting role doesn't give you the right to lie about a bunch of stuff. To

o

much manipulation on your part when the first thing you do is make a scummy push based upon a super reasonable vote against you.

Ca

n

't believe you intentionally gave the impression that the 24 hour thing would be essentially a private gladiate between Jeanne and LQ, and you made it super clear to everyone that your view was Jeanne was town and so everyone should vote LQ, and then pretend like it's scummy that people didn't trust you when they realized your implications and posts were misleading and/or outright lies. You were so successful at pushing that idea that I actually thought that was real. I thought we were restricted between voting one of those two until I asked Cerb to check with Varsoon about whether it was a normal lynch rules or just whichever of them got the most votes, and Cerb came back and told me we could vote anyone.

That's when I said we should vote you. You clearly were behind the whole thing and you intentionally misled the game on several fronts. What we're seeing isn't town Titus.

If wguerts also thought he had to choose between Jeanne and LQ, and then (like us) realized during the 24 hour period that he could vote for anyone, then you are the logical person to vote for Titus, given that you have repeatedly lied to the game and clearly tried to manipulate us into a false understanding of what was going on for an agenda that seems to have zero town motivation.

If

wguerts

' reasoning for voting is the same as ours, then

we're with him

in that.

I expect one hell of a response from you if you expect us to change our mind. I think wguerts is letting you off the hook way too easily Titus.

Irritated by Shenanigans,
Drixx

I originally made this post because it looked like Titus might be trying to make a move to get us lynched. We didn't particularly want to claim on day one but if we had to claim and weren't believed, there needed to be a crumb for the one person we had already outed from our masonry by hard defending him and telling people he was town. The great thing about masons is that we have mod confirmation in our role PM that they are town. There was actually a nice little list of things similar to "You know that so-and-so is aligned with the town faction." in our role PM and everything. It doesn't get much more conftown than that.

This is one of the reasons we were super wary of Titus and what seemed to be another thing similar to a mason group, because it was super unlikely to us that there would be another group. But it makes sense that with Jeanne's ability and Titus' ability, they could have the people they had in on it, with all that coded communication. Three people could be fully informed and Titus could choose two more to inform via her ability, iirc.

So Titus' wall unfortunately crumbles because so much of it rested on the (bad) read that we were scum. If necessary, I will dissect the whole long thing and point out all the places where assumptions fail, but that would just be an exercise in embarrassing a friend for no real gain, and I don't particularly feel like I want to go through and make a "Titus is stupid" post based upon something she said working with day one information and reads. I don't even treat my enemies like that ... why on earth would I want to do it to a friend?

What we have

now

is a strong town block. It's

possible

that Jeanne is scum, but it seems

highly improbable

. If she's careful about who gets access to her PT, she basically can amplify the power of our masonry because we can collect information that scum have no access to and work through it in a place they cannot see and with the likely number of scum and 3 people who are all super high probability town (from outside perspectives), and FireKari due to "conftown" ... the scum are going to be left with hard choices on who to

try

to kill.

The best part is that even if Jeanne happens to accidentally trust the wrong person in the future, we can shift from having super important stuff said on her farm to having it discussed and analyzed in the masonry, and the farm could be used in a wide assortment of ways. The first one that occurs to me is to have strong town reads invited in to infodump and then one of the masons invited in to collect that information and take it into the masonry for analysis.

I'm sure there's probably even more effective things we could do. The best thing is that we now force scum to choose from only bad choices with their night actions. They can try and take out other power roles, but that means they leave Jeanne and our masonry free to vet people we town read and get infodumps from them that will be analyzed and discussed in a place they can't ever see. It's an added layer of protection since even with three of us working with each other and trusting each other, it's possible we could end up with a scum in there at some point to see the info dumps. What they won't see is how we analyze them and work out the puzzle of the game, because that no longer needs to be done on the farm but can instead be done in our masonry PT. If I were scum and saw the potential synergy of this combination, I would feel basically obligated to kill off us (RR) and Wguerts and Jeanne, in some order. It's not a good idea for scum to leave a group of highly probable town (conftown to the scum and to each other in the case of the masons) lying around as that will get them caught via POE.

But at the same time ... when we first got our role PM, I was super excited because Masons are pretty high power level for town, if the people in the masonry are active and willing to put in the work to figure things out. Nobody can look at our hydra PT from SU and come away thinking that we're lazy, so it was perfect. But after getting a couple other roles claimed (Wish they hadn't been outed so fully), I feel like we might not be anywhere near the highest town utility, so now scum has to decide whether to leave a strong town block in place and go hunting for potentially more powerful roles ... or they can try and kill us off (presumably there's a protective role of some sort) and risk both having (a) failed kill(s) because of protection being on their target and also the longer they're stuck dealing with us, the more chance the rest of our roles come into play.

Sorry Cerb and Wguerts, I JFDId.

Love,
Drixx


P.S. - I noticed that someone else watches Vsauce.

Every post which has been or will be posted in this thread already exists, and is searchable online via the Library of Babel. So many possibilities and variables.. We find ourselves pondering which words will have been "chosen" in the worldline this version of us lands in.

That's an interesting project that basically generates a non-finite string of characters. While it's true that everything that has ever been said or ever will be said can be found in there ... it has no predictive value. It contains every possible thing that could ever be said, and thus contains things that will never be said and will remain only possibilities. Interesting project though.

Kari: Are you town?
LG: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yep we are town. Though scumkari would also claim town, they have a secret obvtell.
But yea we really are town, also this our last game, glad we get to end on a Varsoon game, our fav mod. =)

This made me unbearably sad after I caught the above.

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay.

@wguerts: the role us not bastard then, based on when my alignment actually changes, but effectively in lylo I am a survivor.

So, you are a survivor. Except if you are killed before lylo, and town wins, you get to win as well. So, modified survivor that can be played to either help town win before lylo happens, or who gets too play kingmaker in lylo.

You're not town though. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Umm, if he was a neutral with a win condition that read "You win the game if you are either dead when town wins, or if you are alive when all other llving players have achieved their win condition" that wouldn't be an alignment change, it would simply be a unique win condition for a neutral.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be lynched, mind you. I'm just saying it could make sense and not be a bastard game.

-Cerb

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah, I think he's just a modified survivor and he's lying about the VT part. :p or exaggerating to make it seem less threatening. Or he's scum. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Kari: Are you town?
LG: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yep we are town. Though scumkari would also claim town, they have a secret obvtell.
But yea we really are town, also this our last game, glad we get to end on a Varsoon game, our fav mod. =)

This made me unbearably sad after I caught the above.

Why sad?

Also, you seem confident that Brantz isn't town. Do you think they are scum or 3rd party aligned? If scum, why aren't you voting them? If 3rd party aligned, who you think the remaining scum is?

The post you quoted was from Drixx, not myself, but if I were to hazard a guess I'd assume it's because he has enjoyed playing mafia with you in the past and is sad to see you to.

I'm not voting them because Drixx and I haven't had a chance to catch up and chat about the game in several days, and because just because a scenario I posit seems likely, it doesn't mean I'm infallible or that I wish to assist in ending the day earlier than necessary and thus stifle conversation.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Popcorn Claim: Pistachion

I have a one shot role choice between cop/doc/roleblocker/vig. I copped RR on night 1 and he was town.

Also, on night 1 I had the ability to give someone a hated modifier for the next day. Then, the night after that, they'd pass it to someone else, etc. I gave RR a hated modifier and it appears he has given it back.

VOTE: Brantz

Actually, if you had been reading the game, you would have noticed that I said I refused to do anything with it until I knew what it was.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Your alignment changes from town to self aligned during the game, if Varsoon twists his words I have a bone to pick with him.
Pistachi0n, vig Klingoncelt as I have an idea...

Mod, if a town vig where to target a mafia member who was taking the night kill aimed at the vig then which gets priority?

Klingoncelt shoot pistachi0n
Pistachi0n shoot Klingoncelt

Pistachion already used his power, he said it was a one shot. Also, assuming there are no modifiers or saves happening, I do believe both parties just die, there is no priority.

I find it interesting that pistachion said he could use his power to make someone hated on day 1, and after that they would be able to make someone else hated, but it wasn't a one shot ability, but an unlimited one. I guess that's technically correct since he could be targeted with it and use it on someone again. Still weird.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, we're Mukumuku (which we actually already claimed to any astute observers when drixx, earlier in the game, said "Muku" In a post for no reason).

Firekari, pistachion is claiming one shot JOAT, which included a vig, but wgeurts missed that they already used their power, or misread amd thought they had one shot of each.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

No, don't Ascetic tonight. Let Elibern check to see if you really do have 2 1-shot abilities, if you speak the truth then this will confirm it.
Anyway, BRantz you're confusing me, please explain your role again.

If I check her and one ability has been used,it'll still show she has the ability. It'll read as like, suzune has two abilities, the first has 0 shots left, the second has 1 shot left.

Are you sure on the timing of your result? Does it take into account the events which occurred during the night? Also, ascetic means it won't work period.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

No, don't Ascetic tonight. Let Elibern check to see if you really do have 2 1-shot abilities, if you speak the truth then this will confirm it.
Anyway, BRantz you're confusing me, please explain your role again.

If I check her and one ability has been used,it'll still show she has the ability. It'll read as like, suzune has two abilities, the first has 0 shots left, the second has 1 shot left.

Are you sure on the timing of your result? Does it take into account the events which occurred during the night? Also, ascetic means it won't work period.

-Cerb

Only if I activate it. If I choose not to activate then, he will get through.

Yes, but he wouldn't confirm that you had used a shot, which was the assumption in that scenario. Either he checks and you never used it and have a shot left in each, OR you use it and he gets no result.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Pistachi0n looks to be the best possible lynch today. Better lynched than vigged just to be careful.

As a lurker, she has very little value to provide as far as thread analysis is concerned.

However she does have value to town, moreso dead than alive.

I have a one shot role choice between cop/doc/roleblocker/vig. I copped RR on night 1 and he was town.

If pistachi0n flips scum, gg. If pistachi0n flips town, her death could conf-town 2 players.

That benefit is so minor it shouldn't be entered into the equation. We can only be scum if there is a 4 man team AND we planned a mason claim from early day 1, and confirmed said mason claim in a fashion that focused all the attention on another scum slut, when we could have easily moved to have the pressure put on klingon instead.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What I meant to say in my last post but apparently forgot to type is that clearly RR did use his ability because I got re-tagged with my own ability.

No, we didn't. I recommend rereading your role pm, and asking varsoon for clarification on what happens if someone you tag does not use the power.

Let's not hammer until this question gets answered please. Someone unvoting would be nice.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@guerts: What is confusing you about my role? In lylo I am effectively a survivor because I no longer care who wins the game as long as I don't get lynched I will win the game too. But my alignment doesn't actually switch until the game ends. If I am the only remaining town aligned player at the end of the game I win as a survivor.

Alignment changes are bastard. Period.

Furthermore, what you are describing is even worse for town than a usual survivor. If allowed to live, such a role would just vote at LYLO and have zero incentive whatsoever to help the town.

No matter what your claim requires you be lynched.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

I know you're town, but you're lying. I know how my power works. Someone passed the hated tag onto me and you had it last.

What I meant to say in my last post but apparently forgot to type is that clearly RR did use his ability because I got re-tagged with my own ability.

No, we didn't.

I recommend rereading your role pm, and asking varsoon for clarification on what happens if someone you tag does not use the power.

Let's not hammer until this question gets answered please. Someone unvoting would be nice.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I know you're town, but you're lying. I know how my power works. Someone passed the hated tag onto me and you had it last.

We did nothing with it. We said in the thread that we had been marked and didn't plan to do anything with it until we know what it did.

Instead of accusing us of lying about it (to what end?) and assuming that you know what's going on, perhaps you could try and work out what

actually

happened.

While you're working on that (I would suggest you start by asking Varsoon what happens if you tag someone and they choose not to pass it on), maybe you want to explain why you wanted it to be secretly one vote easier to lynch us yesterday?

~Drixx

P.S. - I don't feel very well. If you value a friendly game, you won't call me a liar again.

[Reasonably Rational]

Mid game alignment changes are bastard. My alignment change isn't mid game.

Correct me if I am wrong, but an random end game alignment change would also be bastard because it would change the dynamic of the final lynch should it get there.

I think this is a discussion definitely worth having, but under the current description for what is bastard I don't think it applies? But I don't know for sure.

At this moment, the only reason I want you lynched is to see your role and determine if it was bastard or not. I don't think lynching you is optimal for today, I'm quite suspicious that there's scum hiding at the bottom of the list wgeurts proposed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mid game alignment changes are bastard. My alignment change isn't mid game.

Correct me if I am wrong, but an random end game alignment change would also be bastard because it would change the dynamic of the final lynch should it get there.

I think this is a discussion definitely worth having, but under the current description for what is bastard I don't think it applies? But I don't know for sure.

At this moment, the only reason I want you lynched is to see your role and determine if it was bastard or not. I don't think lynching you is optimal for today, I'm quite suspicious that there's scum hiding at the bottom of the list wgeurts proposed.

-Cerb

This game is not bastard.

That's my point. It's more curiousity than anything else, it's such a baffling claim.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Pistachion, you said you investigated us because you thought we were hard to kill scum. Why did you believe that, and if you truly thought we were scum, why didn't you push us D1? Also, based on what we said D1, it was fairly obvious that we had some plan for proving ourselves to the town. If you were suspicious of us, wasn't it easier to let us hang ourselves by our likely inability to actually prove anything? In addition, why did you cop us rather than just shooting us if you were sure enough that we were scum to make us hated. Actually, as a matter of fact, YOU said you had your hated mark back. The implication there is that you are now hated. Why aren't you lynched yet?

Again, please, nobody hammer until this is resolved.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can I just hammer pistachio?

Well, the thing is it might just be a communication misunderstanding. He might have meant he had his power back, but that it didn't give him the hated modifier.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*her* I apologize for defaulting to using male pronouns.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Sorry I'm at work.

Yes I am going to hammer

RR, you want me to wait?

I would appreciate it. I'm getting a suspicion that pistachion isn't being entirely truthful about their role, and may indeed be a better lynch than Brantz.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Interesting, yes, but I view it as a pro town move to not let their vote keep someone at l-1 when there might be reason to suspect someone else. Kings unvote is only suspicious if it's a 4 man team where she is bussing Brantz and buying town cred by using a power that gives her a second shot to shoot a target of our choosing, and I just gave her a reason to not bus her teammate.

-Cerb

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Jeanne's role would make a lot of sense with a town pistachi0n

How so?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ah. The refill power. Hmm. I disagree actually. I think that particular combination, which creates the possibility of a second masonlike team(they can be at least semi-informed if pistachion just investigated Jeanne) AND gives town an unlimited shot JOAT is unlikely to exist in a game with preexisting masons. Mason pairings already replace cops in terms of the role they serve with regards to game balance, since we just represent two cop innocents(maybe like 1.5 cop innocents, really) which were given while the cop was still alive(basically, innocent townies whose alignment you can't be 100% certain of until a particular player flips).

Also, to whoever was speculating about how the game was designed: I think it's a lot more likely that Varsoon assigned us all our flavor as we chose, then randomized alignment, then looked at what flavor each side had available for it and then worked to make a balanced game that fit with the flavor of each slot. Creating mechanics to match flavor and then randomizing only works if you manage the game balance such that any 3-4 slots plus a nk is balanced vs any other combination of the other 9-10 slots. That seems way harder to do.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, I'm sorry I abandoned our masonry, I kinda don't see a huge point to it now that we're both exposed. Might as well make sure if the scum have some sort of double kill or something they can't keep our thoughts from being shared. Not like that would be a priority to them, but it's just a thought.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, but roles have EVERYTHING to do with balance. We can't consider a slot to be cleared by role, but balancing the game the way you(I assume it was you, because you tool the time to respond to my tangent with a defense) suggested he did if would be nearly impossible. If that's how people here regularly balance upicks I shudder ro think how many games have been poorly balanced.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, we have our own pt. We just haven't been posting in it much since we claimed, with my thought process being there's no reason to keep our thoughts secret now.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Pistachion, you said you investigated us because you thought we were hard to kill scum. Why did you believe that, and if you truly thought we were scum, why didn't you push us D1? Also, based on what we said D1, it was fairly obvious that we had some plan for proving ourselves to the town. If you were suspicious of us, wasn't it easier to let us hang ourselves by our likely inability to actually prove anything? In addition, why did you cop us rather than just shooting us if you were sure enough that we were scum to make us hated.

Actually, as a matter of fact, YOU said you had your hated mark back. The implication there is that you are now hated. Why aren't you lynched yet?

Again, please, nobody hammer until this is resolved.

-Cerb

The answer to your questions is that I trust my power more than my intuitions. I think cop is better than vig. I wasn't certain you were town. So the scenarios I went through were

A) you're scum. I cop you, I share my result. They might not believe me but if they lynched me if flip town and then they'd lynch you.

B) you're scum. I vig you. Win. (But as I said, I wasn't certain.)

C) you're town. I vig you. We lost a strong town player.

D) you're town. I cop you. I know you're town. We still have you around. I also know wgeurts is town, which I wouldn't have known if you were dead. I'm happy with my decision.

You didn't answer the bolded.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wgeurts, pistachions preferred pronoun is "she". :p. Suzune, I'm not feeling that pistachion is likely to be scum either, but I red to get with Drixx to see if he has a preference. Brantz is basically policy at this point.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I find it unlikely that scumstachion would blatantly ignore the part of my post that accused her of being a liar, while quoting the post and address in everything else. That's too easily something that would push a scum slot at l-1 over the edge, especially when the person asking the question isn't on your wagon yet. Pistachion, who would you lynch? Top 3 candidates.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah she needs a prod as of 31 hours ago. :p

I apologize for stalling the game btw, but I feel like we're in a very strong position and don't want to squander it by going on autopilot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Kari, how does your double vote function in lylo?

[Reasonably Rational]

MOD: If you haven't already replaced me, Emergency V/LA.

I'd have announced it BEFORE having been without internet for 48 hours, but the thing about weather-induced access issues is that they are weather induced and not exactly something that I could have planned for.

Gah, this is annoying. The blasted power's STILL not back, even two freakin' days later, and the 'net I AM borrowing is limited and PAINFULLY slow.

Sorry to hear that, it sounds quite aggravating, hopefully you get it resolved sooner rather than later.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Pistachi0n is likely town.
Don't hammer him or vig him.
No, vote BRantz.

So who do you want vigged?

Who do you suggest, and why them?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think Brantz can die today, but he can be vigged rather than lynched, because I don't mind if his death is uncertain. I need to double check the claims and stuff to see where I stand on who actually seems scummy. Why not ranger klingon?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Kari, how does your double vote function in lylo?

Same as any other time.

Hmph. In the last Varsoon game I played in, there were multiple roles that did things which changed the number of players required for a lynch(including two variants of double voter),all of which turned off in Lylo except ons, which Varsoon said after the game that he should have had turn off like all the others.

There was a hated slot
A voteless slot
A double voter
And a split double voter, who could place one vote on each of two people, but who under certain circumstances would have a double split vote.

Only the voteless slot didn't have their power turn off in lylo, iirc.

This is suspect.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

There was also a loved slot, and a vote thief. Again, all of them turned off in lylo. Direct double voter and proxy double voter on the same scum team is a hard sell though. That's 5 votes in 3 slots, when 8 was lynch d1. 5/7 day 2, so town has 1 mislynch in that scenario.

Hmm.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

In Varsoon's space dandy mafia, none of the roles were modified by lylo. Town ended up losing to a scum ascetic who gained an extra vote per each day that ended in a lynch: http://i61.tinypic.com/98vn7m.png

Brantz is the first time we have heard of a role modded by lylo.

Elbirn, please check Suzune tonight.
~Yukari

List or roles in Steven Universe Mafia
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7249473

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I won't be able to do any rereading until this evening at the earliest. Ranger, yes, that particular utility is the reason why you marking the person who was going to be vigged that night was pretty bad. It's likely we're in a position where your power will find scum for us, but now...it just won't. Scum now know how to manipulate your power to lead us on mislynches.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, I don't mind kari's idea, and I do like unvoting so we don't accidentally lynch. Yesterdays sudden lynch was bad mkay?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, so I've been thinking about things. Anyone happen to remember where Titus' wall of advice is?

Titus formed an ad hoc town block on day one that included: {Titus, Jeanne, Elbirn, Suzanne} and two of those people have flipped town. The problem is that in her wall of assumptions, she was super wrong about Wguerts and us, and I believe she was also wrong about other things as well. That tells me the basic assumptions she was making were wrong somewhere. That tells me that someone in that group of people she was town reading is scum.

Elbirn strikes me as the most likely. Suzanne could certainly be scum as well.

We would very much appreciate it if you guys

respected our wishes today; UNLIKE yesterday

and don't just rush a lynch. We'd like time to re-evaluate that wall of stuff Titus said which Jeanne quoted into the game, and then go look and see if we can find some flaws in narrative from someone Titus was assuming was town. We're not comfortable with the current plan simply because it's not a surefire plan to win. We'd rather put the work in before scum has a chance to night kill us to just figure it out and get the win done.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx, we have two mislynches so messing up a lynch on Klingoncelt is no problem. Sometimes when everything points to someone being scum they are scum, and if she isn't we have two more lynches to sort that out.

I'm not personally convinced she's scum. And I'm not really comfortable with the "oh we have plenty of mislynches" approach either. In Steven Universe, we got the town into position where we had a 100% win chance, and a claimed town miller bucked his lynch and lynched someone who was cleared as town and that bullshit selfish move on his part gave the scum the game eventually.

Our current "plan" is nowhere near as good as the position we were in with that game, and you and we are likely to be killed off if the game continues after today. I'd like to just kill scum and hopefully see a town win

[Reasonably Rational]

We'd rather put the work in before scum has a chance to night kill us to just figure it out and get the win done.

If scum nightkilled you, then they'd be confirming FireKari as town.
Confirming FireKari as town, while having me as confirmed town and one other mason as confirmed town, would doom them to losing via POE alone. (Five alive, two conftown aside from me.)

So, you can be assured you won't die tonight.

You are far from confirmed town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We are of the opinion that klingon is, at worst, a safety lynch in lylo. Either scum no killed to frame her, killed the same target she did for the same reason, or she is scum and using the no kill gambit defense in despsration. Only in the third case do we want to lynch her, and there is no reason to make that lynch any earlier than absolutely necessary, given that it gives us a clear play to make in lylo with no opportunity for scum obfuscation. If we lynch her now, because all other slots are similarly suspect, it will be very easy to make those mislynches when they cost us the game.

I suppose it goes without saying, but I agree with the general thrust of Drixx's suspicions regarding Elbirn and suzune, but we do both need to reread the game to see if there is any actual reason to suspect one over the other, beyond Elbirns lack of content and opinions since his acceptance as town by Titus on D1.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

killed the same target she did for the same reason

Highly unlikely considering the last post of day 3:

I'll Vig Pistachion.

VOTE: Brantz

The "same reason" I'm referring to is the one mentioned earlier in that sentence - to frame her, in the same fashion a no kill would. What if she got cold feet and you knew the person she was supposed to kill was town? Just make the kill for her to ensure it happens and you can carry out the no kill gambit, without actually risking there being no deaths.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm mobile, I know someone gathered all the claims. If anyone is able to quote that here, I would be very appreciative.

[Reasonably Rational]

-Cerb