Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Persivul]

First!

[Persivul]

Second! I am good at counting.

VOTE: Persivul for forgetting to complain about his dislike of hydrae

--P

I didn't forget, conscious decision not to.

VOTE: FAQ2
Not quite random.

[Persivul]

4th post!

I didn't forget, conscious decision not to.

Because you complained about it both last times that you were scum against me and wanted to mix up your meta?

--P

Nope, it's a general life rule that you should change up your shtick from time to time. Don't want to be a broken record (showing my age there), or the old man yelling at kids for being in his yard.

[Persivul]

5th!

VOTE: Shiro

Because he made it to game by cheating!

How did he cheat?

[Persivul]

he wasn't in the first list! and he was cute!

If being cute is a crime, then consider me guilty...

[Persivul]

I read The Doctor (capitalized) as a Doctor Who reference, not a mafia role reference.

[Persivul]

VOTE: FAQ2
Not quite random.

Elaborate.

In my last game with him he was scum and won because his playstyle appeared townie early and so he was never pressured despite not contributing much.

[Persivul]

Bit quick to judge?

No. You need to start pressure somewhere, and this reason is as good as most that come up on page 1. Why don't you join me?

Since he hasn't even posted yet. I'd like to see where you go from here.

Depends on how much he contributes.

[Persivul]

Yo Plot - I want your hydra partner to read this exchange and tell me how I should respond to it.

Pussy. Respond to it yourself.

[Persivul]

BTW, I forgot to add this before but I've never watched Doctor Who.

Me neither.

[Persivul]

LOL - I knew your first post would go after me.

[Persivul]

Oh really - I guess you are upset from last time

Upset? No - it's just a game.

Wary from last time - yep, and you coming in, responding to one post about yourself, and ignoring everything else that's going on isn't making me feel any better about you.

[Persivul]

Kittehs is town.

because?

Okay Mala's probably town.

wanna explain?

Oh really - I guess you are upset from last time

Upset? No - it's just a game.

Wary from last time - yep, and you coming in, responding to one post about yourself, and ignoring everything else that's going on isn't making me feel any better about you.

how much effort do you gonna put on your fear about the last game? You have anything else to bring up at this point ?

Asking questions to appear townie without actually taking stances or exerting pressure.

[Persivul]

Also, Persivul, you avoided the question she asked.

No, I didn't.

Are you putting any stock in what happened last game? Are you going to use it in any way (meta read for example)?

Obvious questions don't get answered.

What other contributions have you for us?

I gave one - Angel is "Asking questions to appear townie without actually taking stances or exerting pressure."

[Persivul]

Gotcha.

So, why comment on it without really pushing it or taking a hard stance (aka, your comment on it without a push or a vote is noted).

It's not enough to warrant a hard stance. I mean seriously, do you vote or otherwise take a hard stance every time you note something suspicious? No, you don't - no one does. So why are you asking me this question?

[Persivul]

The Doctor would never cheat!

Please learn how to quote correctly. I didn't say that.

[Persivul]

Early reads

Town

Aristophanes
Plottin Kittehs

Lean town

Frozen Angel
Kuroi
Not_Mafia

Null

Rob13
Davsto
Adaptive Heap
Shiro

Lean scum

Soren
FAQ2
BROseidon

Scum

---

[Persivul]

Re: Ari

I do stream of consciousness as scum too, so it is kind of my playstyle. I only do it when I have to catch up, because I know no other way to catch up really.

Really didn't like this post. Why did you bother pointing out that you do that as scum too?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rob13

[Persivul]

Because he was using bad meta?

So what? He was town reading you from it. If you're town and you know it's really a null tell, why bother pointing that out? How does that advance this game?

I can either point it out now, or he can dig through my meta later and figure that out. Same result, but in the latter option, he's wasting time he could be using finding scum.

False dichotomy. You could have just let it go.

You can literally see in the post above yours how it helped him form reads. Why would I want to not help other players in forming their reads?

These posts reek of scum trying too hard to appear helpful.

[Persivul]

I like Rob13 and Shiro better after today's posts.

I don't see the need for a davsto wagon at this point. There are better choices, particularly Soren and FAQ2.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Soren

[Persivul]

Also the flavor speculation seems pointless to me. Do we have any reason to think that it's more than dressing to fairly standard roles? I don't see any indication of that in my role pm.

[Persivul]

Just to be very clear, my flavor spoiler was meant more to educate on regenerations than to speculate. I probably did more speculation than I should have. The mod probably did randomize scum to regenerations now that I think about it. It would have been wise to do so.

Adaptive, I have to think about what you just said in terms of the timing.

I don't see much testing the waters from newb-scum. I generally see either aggressiveness or passiveness in a fairly absolute form, at least very early in the game. Testing the waters comes from newb-town unsure how to find scum more often than newb-scum trying to figure out where to push, in my experience.

Also, that Persivul transition is

awful

. Like, completely awful.

VOTE: Persivul

First, your transition to me here is pretty much the same.

Second, why is it awful? In 108 I listed Soren, FAQ2, and Broseiden as my scum pool. I had been on FAQ2 earlier. I then switched to you based on some scummy posting. WHen I felt better about you, I moved to Soren, whom I had previously scum read. What's wrong with that, particularly considering the timing - the end of Christmas Day? Must I do a PBPA to make a vote?

[Persivul]

Wow, this is ridiculous:

1) You moved onto me when I had two votes (highest at the time)

Yeah, that's called forming a wagon to exert some pressure. Three votes are more likely to get a reaction than a single vote.

with some really shitty reasoning. You argued the reasoning to the ends of the earth, using strong statements such as "reek of scum", which isn't itself scummy, but ...

Ends of the earth? Are you lying, or just prone to hyperbole? I voted you in 129 and followed up in 141. Where the fuck do you get ends of the earth from those two posts?

2) Other people move off of me, and then suddenly you "feel better about me".[/quote]
1. No, between 141 and my unvote in 168, no one else moved off your wagon.
2. Yes, when a wagon isn't gaining traction I move my vote. And?

You don't give any rationale for this at all. You do reference today's posting and now say you switched to me due to "scummy posting" in the first place, so I assume you haven't gone back on your reasoning from before and are just claiming I'm less scummy lately.

Yep. I haven't moved you from null to town, but your wagon wasn't gaining and there are other targets to look at.

This does not feel like a natural transition at all. It feels like you hopped on to me when a wagon formed and hopped off when the wagon left.

Except for that pesky fact that I was the first person off the wagon. Your misrepresentation of the facts is moving you back to the scummy side of null.

Why are you lying about the events in order to make a case on me?

I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

Fuck you.
Bring it on.
I'm not concerned.

[Persivul]

Persivul I think I asked you an important question back there that I really want to see your answer about

Are you referring to my town read on Aristophanes? That was based mostly on 23 and 70.

any update about your post 108 ?

No. Not much has happened since then to change my reads.

[Persivul]

BTW your last avatar was much better.

[Persivul]

You were and are a lean town for me.

[Persivul]

What's your take on Rob13? I'm having a hard time reading him.

[Persivul]

Persivul, like 3 people said they thought I was town between your vote and unvote. The wagon was sinking fast.

I am prone to hyperbole, but I stand by the fact that "reeks of scum" is indicative of a strong scum read or at least a point that would have to be addressed before you'd reconsider your read. It's a particularly strong statement.

Like, anyone can look at the tread and see there was no longer any pressure or momentum in that wagon. You even basically admit as such. So why you're trying to claim I'm misrepresenting the game state is beyond me.

1. To me, wagon refers to votes, not reads.

2. Yes, people who have played with you before were beginning to town read you, and as I'm having trouble reading you, that factored into my move.

[Persivul]

Scum has a motivation to avoid scrutiny above all else.

And I have the highest post count in the game. I'm not concerned with avoiding scrutiny. Scrutinize away. Lynch me if you like, but playing like that you'll likely end up with a knife in your back yourself.

[Persivul]

What's your take on Rob13? I'm having a hard time reading him.

He looks like a mad town But I like his posts!

There is one point concerning about you persival , Why you got so hellish defensive against Rub push? I thought I'm the only one who would react that emotional to 2 single votes.

You'll see in time.

[Persivul]

What do you think about davsto? Since davsto says he's usually slow D1 and someone else backed that up, I think it's better to let him go for now, but he's been getting a lot of attention. Also, both people currently on his wagon are in my scum pool.

[Persivul]

Persivul I think I asked you an important question back there that I really want to see your answer about

And your response to my answer?

[Persivul]

I'm not seeing you scum to have weak townreads. But I can't see why your strongly town read someone with those two posts.

23 - "I will when I get an answer. There is a method to this." Scum tend to be straight-forward and opportunistic. Asking a question with possible follow-ups already in mind is a strong indication of a town mindset - someone genuinely trying to figure out the game.

70 - "Basically, if you read the story post, it implies we are all Doctors, in different regenerations. Thus my counter question. What would 1) lead FA to believe Shiro is not a Doctor and 2) lead her to believe we are facing an outside evil, and not, say, a corrupted regeneration while 3) using "a" not "the" as the article precursing "Doctor."

Theory: FA is a non-doctor with a Doctor as a fakeclaim."

Same thing with the theory. Scum already know the setup and so don't tend to think in terms of alternate possibilities. Also, this scenario is plausible, but if it were true, scum would be very unlikely to put it out as a theory. Pointing out the possibility of supplied fakeclaims to people makes then more wary of claims, so a scum with a fakeclaim doesn't want people thinking along those lines.

[Persivul]

My other full town read was Plottin kittehs. That's based on:

7, 9 - Instead of laying low in RVS already pressuring me based on (incorrect) meta.

49 - the other head disagrees, noting that she had seen me do the same thing as town. This doesn't seem to me like something that scum would plan out in their hydra discussions. It feels like genuine conflict between the heads. I'm not a big hydra player but I would imagine that heads would be more likely to try to stay in sync as scum than as town.

53 - pointing out adaptive's sheeping. No motivation fro scum to do so.

[Persivul]

Frozen Angel:

17, 18, 25 - a little suspicious of the fluff, but I sometimes joke around quite a bit in the first couple pages so I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. It is a game after all.

64 - I liked "I need to do my tests ..." As above, this indicates to me a town mindset.

Then frankly I felt sorry for her for getting caught up in the doctor/Doctor Who discussion, which I think was unnecessary.

[Persivul]

Regarding kuroi:

89 - I liked this defense. Also the stubbornness regarding the avatar seemed town - scum would be more likely to acquiesce.

[Persivul]

My last lean town was Not Mafia, which is the weakest as it was only based on his calling out Rob in 96. BUT...I neglected to factor in that Kittehs had already done so in 49. So, that's now weaker and I'm downgrading NM to null.

[Persivul]

Regarding my nulls:

Rob remains a null, as he has both townie and scummy posts IMO. Just when I think he's townier he does something scummy. As he says he maintains his meta carefully this may be by design - the game's not fun if you're so townie that you get killed every N1. As town I always look somewhat scummy on D1 as I'm not being careful with my wording like I would be as scum, but I don't mind the scum reads as it keeps me from taking NKs.

(BTW Rob, after your chewing out everyone after Blitz 1 as moderator, I expected you to be a more aggressive player in tone.}

As noted on Davsto, there are enough scummier people to take him at his word that he's slow on D1. If that remains on D2, I'll reconsider. Still null.

Adaptive Heap - not enough to go on, still null.

Shiro:
117 - calling attention to her own lack of activity seems townie

146 - I agree that the focus on davsto could be better placed today

158 and following - like the pressure on Soren and the reasoning

So, upgrade Shiro to lean town.

[Persivul]

Which gives:

Town

Aristophanes
Plottin Kittehs

Lean town

Frozen Angel
Kuroi
Shiro

Null

Rob13
Davsto
Adaptive Heap
Not_Mafia

Lean scum

Soren
FAQ2
BROseidon

Scum

---

[Persivul]

Soren:

22, 33, 68, 159 - all questions with little or no follow up. This is an easy way for scum to appear busy without really doing anything.

143 - chose two very safe scum reads and one safe town read

[Persivul]

22, 33, 68, 159 - all questions with little or no follow up. This is an easy way for scum to appear busy without really doing anything.

You point those out and say that I don't follow up when I have.

Give the specific posts that follow up to those.

[Persivul]

Can you explain why that's town?

Because if he were scum just needing someone to push, there were easier targets, particularly when I thought he was the first to say that about Rob.

[Persivul]

Can you explain why that's town?

Because if he were scum just needing someone to push, there were easier targets, particularly when I thought he was the first to say that about Rob.

Well it was a replace-in post which gave no reasoning and ended up in a vote on Rob.
I mean who was the easier target with that reasoning (ie, none)? Kuroi? davsto?

Yes.

Several folks had already pointed at Rob for one reason or another. Seems pretty easy to me.

-t

Yep. On closer examination I've already noted that myself and downgraded my read on NM. So, why do you point it out as well?

[Persivul]

half of his read list is just giving away free credits.

Yesterday I went back and provided the reasoning for almost all my reads. Why do you say I'm "just giving away free credits"?

[Persivul]

I forgot Aristophanes. the only thing he did was a vocab fight with me

He pushed FAQ2 in 70 & 79. Why do you say he hasn't done anything except a vocab fight with you?

[Persivul]

Strong Scum:
Persivul

What do you think of my reads yesterday?

If you're town, we need to get on the same page.

[Persivul]

first I'm happy you provided that list. I can see why you got angry about my sentense about you. That was a bit exageration.

Speaking of exaggeration, why did you read anger in my response?

your list is not that bad. but its not perfect.

Of course not. You're just filling space by saying that.

You judged people based on what you call you don't expect their coming from scums. the scary thing here is that you don't consider them coming from a scum who is faking them. I mean who play different when he is scum?

Would you prefer that we all be paralyzed by wifom?

The basis of the game is that people

try

to play the same as town and scum, but are unable to truly do so. Accordingly I'm trying to read people on that basis.

I don't like the way you just say these players are in my conf town list because they posted like a town mind set.

Conftown is not one of the categories in my list. No one is conftown at this point.

Again, looking for a town mindset is a primary method of reading people.

What do you look to for reads, particularly on D1?

I don't like to call that a push. if its his push its more like active lurking. plus I think that FA is probably me ... not FA-Q2

Oh, so saying he hasn't done anything but argue vocabulary with you is a self-serving misrepresentation of his posts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Frozen Angel

[Persivul]

Let me explain it in more simple words :

real scum hunting is this : you must assume everyone as scum. try to push them. see their reactions. try to find their weak spots. push them more. they will sort themselves out as town or as scum.

Then you're not scum hunting by your own definition. You've made one vote since RVS. You're not pushing people at all.

[Persivul]

First, no, we don't. I don't know your alignment, and I have no desire to "get on the same page as you" if that means adopting your reads when I think you're scum.

By get on the same page I mean you town reading me, or at least moving me to null.

My biggest problem with you is still this. I just read your "case" on Soren, and it doesn't make sense for you to go off of me and onto him given how strongly you wrote about my play being scummy earlier in the day. Maybe I missed it, but have you explained why I was "better" after the more recent posting? That might be the missing link there, idk.

Prior to that day:
44 - your post on me was bad.
55 - declaring kuroi as newbtown was bad
57 - you make an obligatory town read with no reasoning
120 - you make a misrep of me that IIRC others had already noted was incorrect, then you vote an easy wagon, then add a disclaimer in 121 and again in 123

On that day:
142 - the explanation for volunteering the meta bit was bad
163 and 165 - if davsto's wagon is hitting resistance and Soren's post was horrible, why not move to Soren? It's D1, wagons shift.
But in 170, a horrible post from me was enough to get you to move your vote from the davsto wagon.

If Soren flips scum, you should be looked at next.

I intended to show that your 12.25 posting was better as a defense, but now that I look at it closer, it's pretty bad. Before the game I know I

wanted

you to be town so I could learn something about scum hunting, and I think that played into the post that you're pushing.

[Persivul]

full town read

by your words ^

Yes, and? You're assuming without reason that I can't change such a read. I've explicitly said I don't consider anyone conftown at this point. Why do you pretend that I do have conftowns?

[Persivul]

Whats a full town read?

A town read that's stronger than lean town and weaker than conftown (actually I don't consider conftown a read, such status needs to come from other sources).

and what can change it ?

Anything.

how are they in a full town read state if you never pressured them or interacted with them directly about their reads?

I already gave my reasoning. It's D1 and there are 12 other players. I don't see a need to pressure them all today. You don't seem to be doing so either.

[Persivul]

So, you have no explanation for your transition whatsoever? What was with the passionate defense of the transition, then?

I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

Fuck you.
Bring it on.
I'm not concerned.

Like, I'm bringing it, and you appear to have nothing...

And I'm not concerned. There's more there than meets the eye.

I'm trying to understand where that transition came from. If you were scum, it would be a convenient transition. If you were town, you'd have some rationale for it. So your roadmap to "get on the same page" is to explain to me clearly what you were thinking at the time you made the transition, if that's what you want to do. That doesn't mean you have to agree with your own rationale now - if you changed your mind on my posting, that's not scummy. But I need to understand what you were thinking then, or my scumread will persist (and probably strengthen, for that matter).

Reviewing that day I'm no longer interested in getting on the same page with you.

[Persivul]

It's D1 and there are 12 other players. I don't see a need to pressure them all today.

this is literally the worst excuses whatsoever.

Why?

Is it your experience that every player pressures every other player on D1?

[Persivul]

163 and 165 - if davsto's wagon is hitting resistance and Soren's post was horrible, why not move to Soren? It's D1, wagons shift.
But in 170, a horrible post from me was enough to get you to move your vote from the davsto wagon. If Soren flips scum, you should be looked at next.

[Persivul]

anything what?

Any scummy behavior. For instance, people asking questions to which the answer is obvious...

[Persivul]

You play your way, I'll play mine. It's not uncommon to give people town reads on this site without an interrogation. You saw Rob and Broseiden do it, but for some reason you haven't followed up with them and are only pressuring me for it.

[Persivul]

Whats your current read on Ari and plotty kittens? I seriously don't like the way they got universally town readed so soon when there was no pressure on them.

And do you know what the check on that is?

[Persivul]

Broseiden is someone who I really like to have a conversation with actually atm. he is inside the lurkers category.

Funny you don't mention that until I bring it up.

Rob made a town read and pressured you. you made town reads and did nothing. that's the difference.

What in the world does Rob's pressure on

me

have to do with his town read of

Kittehs

?

[Persivul]

and tell me 1 reason why your voting me and not asking any questions about me.

Are you fucking insane?

[Persivul]

Whats your current read on Ari and plotty kittens? I seriously don't like the way they got universally town readed so soon when there was no pressure on them.

And do you know what the check on that is?

I'll answer for you...the check on someone who is universally town read on D1 is that if they haven't been NK'd by D3, it's really suspicious.

[Persivul]

Spoiler: Posts with questions to Frozen

full town read

by your words ^

Yes, and? You're assuming without reason that I can't change such a read. I've explicitly said I don't consider anyone conftown at this point. Why do you pretend that I do have conftowns?

It's D1 and there are 12 other players. I don't see a need to pressure them all today.

this is literally the worst excuses whatsoever.

Why?

Is it your experience that every player pressures every other player on D1?

Whats your current read on Ari and plotty kittens? I seriously don't like the way they got universally town readed so soon when there was no pressure on them.

And do you know what the check on that is?

Broseiden is someone who I really like to have a conversation with actually atm. he is inside the lurkers category.

Funny you don't mention that until I bring it up.

Rob made a town read and pressured you. you made town reads and did nothing. that's the difference.

What in the world does Rob's pressure on

me

have to do with his town read of

Kittehs

?

[Persivul]

What in the world does Rob's pressure on

me

have to do with his town read of

Kittehs

?

I said it does? I asked him again about his reads and I'm w8ing for his response to talk about it more.

Again...why have you only followed up with me on the issue, but are patiently waiting for others to respond to a single question on the same issue?

[Persivul]

+ seriously I'm under treatment. I'm emotionally broken - not logically insane. But yes I have mental issues.

I mean no offense by this, but you probably shouldn't play mafia until you clear those issues up. Mafia fucks with sane people's heads at times.

[Persivul]

lol your saying why I'm not attacking other 11 players at once? patient brother! Your defense is ridiculous.

Why you think me asking the same questions about others has a single damn relation to my push against you?

Because tunneling one person who's already under pressure, while ignoring others doing the same thing, is opportunistic and scummy.

[Persivul]

lol your saying why I'm not attacking other 11 players at once?

No, I'm asking why you're not pressuring 2 other players who you know did the same thing. Why aren't you? Rob's one of them, and he's been on.

[Persivul]

and tell me 1 reason why your voting me and not asking any questions about me.

Spoiler: Posts with questions to Frozen

full town read

by your words ^

Yes, and? You're assuming without reason that I can't change such a read. I've explicitly said I don't consider anyone conftown at this point. Why do you pretend that I do have conftowns?

It's D1 and there are 12 other players. I don't see a need to pressure them all today.

this is literally the worst excuses whatsoever.

Why?

Is it your experience that every player pressures every other player on D1?

Whats your current read on Ari and plotty kittens? I seriously don't like the way they got universally town readed so soon when there was no pressure on them.

And do you know what the check on that is?

Broseiden is someone who I really like to have a conversation with actually atm. he is inside the lurkers category.

Funny you don't mention that until I bring it up.

Rob made a town read and pressured you. you made town reads and did nothing. that's the difference.

What in the world does Rob's pressure on

me

have to do with his town read of

Kittehs

?

Why did you claim that I'm not asking you any questions?

[Persivul]

Why can't my questions help me to sort you?

[Persivul]

Why did you claim that I'm not asking you any questions?

your not asking any questions about sorting me. your questions are simply about the pressure I brought on you.

Sure. Here's one example. When clearly caught in a lie, instead of admitting it and retracting the charge, you move the goalposts.

[Persivul]

and tell me 1 reason why your voting me and not asking any questions about me.

^^ Lie.

[Persivul]

In 288 I quoted a number of questions I asked you.

[Persivul]

In 288 I quoted a number of questions I asked you.

Exactly. You moved the goalposts. You first said that I wasn't asking questions. When I demonstrated that that was a lie, you changed it to not asking questions that, in your opinion, would help me to sort you.

[Persivul]

^^ quote shouldn't be there

[Persivul]

I asked you never asked questions about me THAT MEANS you never asked questions about sorting me !!!!!

1. No, it doesn't.

2. Who are you to unilaterally decide what questions can and can't be used for sorting?

[Persivul]

1 - so you wanted to ask questions about how I'm doing in IRL ?! :/

No. Don't know where you'rte getting that from.

2 - Then tell me how they helped you to sort me? what did you done to sort me?

I already gave one example. When asked about the lie about questions, you moved the goalposts. You could have done other things - claim it was a mistake, blame the language barrier, claimed it was a reaction test. The answer you gave leads me to believe that you're town, but aggressive, arrogant, and with a language barrier. If you had claimed it was a mistake or a reaction test, I would have found that scummy. Blaming the language barrier would have been null.

[Persivul]

I'm done here.

Likewise. I don't know if it's a language issue or if you're just a fucking idiot, but talking with you is painful.

[Persivul]

Pers, do you think Frozen is scummy above and beyond being wrong about mafia theory?

As noted in 313 I have a town lean on Frozen.

[Persivul]

and your voting me. please ....

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Soren

[Persivul]

Okay but I was going in order. You were townread her at the time of that post? So you've just been having this dull semantics/mafia theory argument for several pages with your townread for fun?

Or you were scumreading her and then you started townreading her in 313? Look, I can believe the first below the belt comment was a mistake because some people put their feet in their mouths and step on people's toes sometimes but after she says that she does have an issue you keep pushing along those lines, on someone you're claiming to townread, when she's clearly getting upset, and it's the kind of incoherent upsetness that it'll be really easy for scum to jump on her for AtE, but you just keep pushing. What is the point of treating a townread like this? What is the town motivation for it?

WTF are you talking about? I made one post to her after town reading her in 313.

Why the misrep? I think I know, but I'd like to hear your answer.

If you're irritated then say she's irritating you. Take a break from the keyboard and watch some telly or go do something else. This "do you have mental health issues? oh you do? well how upset can i make you?" thing is toxic, unlikely to make her easier to read, a terrible way of treating someone you claim to townread (or even a scumread), and it looks like a way to get her to overreact and then she'll be wagonned and you can get towncred for staying off the wagon and calling her town.

When someone says that I haven't asked them any questions when I've just asked them a bunch of questions, "Are you insane?" is a fair question.

Seriously, you think I'm scum trying to get her to overreact so that other people can mislynch her while I stay off the wagon? Are you sure it wasn't the man on the grassy gnoll?

Pers, how much attention did you pay to Wifom city after you replaced out?

None. I was off site for a couple months after that.

[Persivul]

I asked you a question about your 251. Your response was that you are townreading Frozen.

You asked for my current read, I gave it to you, and noted that it was made in 313.

You made a lot of posts to Frozen after 251.

Yep, as I was still trying to read her at that point.

Some of those posts were inappropriate even if you weren't townreading her.

Are you voting me because I made inappropriate posts?

For example 320 which happened after you claimed to townread her in 313.

Yes, as I said above, I made one post to her after townreading her.

I don't get the reference but is it that farfetched?

Yes. It's a misspelled (should have been knoll) to conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination.

There are some types of players who when you back them into a corner it gets harder to read them and then they practically mislynch themselves.

This is the first time I've played with Frozen. How would I know she was such a player?

And I've seen it before that people get a player riled up and then they attack them for being irrational.

You've seen it before, so that must be what I'm doing. Got it.

FTR I expect to be lynched today and I'm OK with that. My role (crumbed and softed BTW) isn't the highest utility. I just ask that you all remember my reads and examine the wagon when I am.

[Persivul]

Good post.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: FAQ2

[Persivul]

That was @ Soren.

[Persivul]

I've modded two games that Persivul was in, one town and one scum. I think I have a pretty good baseline on him

A pretty good baseline from a sample size of 2...

[Persivul]

Two games isn't a pattern, and if you had researched other games you would have mentioned them.

[Persivul]

Rob and Angel are scum together

That's definitely something to consider when I'm gone.

[Persivul]

if Persi by any chance flips town your my next target.

Scum like to set up the next day's lynch.

[Persivul]

I'm literally directly telling you that I looked at other games.

And you literally only said that

after

I pointed out that two games isn't much to go on.

Are you saying I'm lying?

Possibly lying, possibly conf biasing. You've had it in for me since your first post. I somewhat expected it because I had a perfect scum game in Blitz 1 which you modded, but I didn't expect it to go this far. Interestingly, in that game I was scum. Titus made a mistake D1, and I hounded her on it until she was lynched. In this game, I made a mistake, and you're intent on hounding me on it until I'm lynched.

Feel free to offer up self-meta that contradicts what I've said, but from what I've seen in the games I modded and the game I've skimmed, your town and scum metas are worlds apart and can be quite obvious.

I don't have a single town or scum meta. My approach changes from game to game, and within a game, based on mood and experimentation.

[Persivul]

I didn't like your initial townread on Not_Mafia and I don't like Not_mafia's content.
At this point it's "REPLACE IN WOOO" (the "WOOO" is an assumption based on the replace) followed by a couple of terse statements.
I think if he was looking for someone, as scum, to vote on - Rob was a good choice. There's been a lot of discussion regarding Rob and it's not so obviously a scummy vote to make and then lurk off on.

I point it out because you said that you thought that the push was town where I don't think it was.
So I'm trying to figure out if your reads are valid or if they lack substance.

My read on NM was "initial" as you say. I called it "early." IIRC it was based on 3 posts. So...of course it lacked substance. You have to start somewhere.

I'm finding it strange that you shift back to null on Not_Mafia because Plottin Kittehs had also apparently called out Rob - but fail to recognise your own pushes on Rob as factoring in to a vote that a potential scum-Not_Mafia might make.

I'm finding it concerning that you're not reading the thread closely. At the time that NM voted Rob, I hadn't pushed Rob at all. I had made one null comment on Rob when NM voted.

I'm leaning town on Rob myself, town on Frozen and I don't have much of an issue with FAQ's play currently but do want to see a bit more.

I can see Rob as scum or as conf biasing town. Frozen I have a town lean on. FAQ2 as usual doesn't give much to go on, but I don't like what I've seen. As scum he has a higher number of fairly benign questions with little follow up, as town he is more aggressive and takes more stances. See his ISO from 90 - 106 for fairly benign questions which haven't been followed up.

I'm a maybe-town on you (I don't think mastin agrees with this) but am trying to figure out if I get your own reads. I'd like you to be more open about responding to questions that I ask. I agree with Frozen - you seem pretty cagey at times.

Maybe you should ask better questions. I get tired of questions which I've already answered (Frozen's specialty) or which are loaded with factually false premises (as above where you missed the timing of the pushes on Rob).

[Persivul]

FWIW I got it right away. It's pretty obvious.

[Persivul]

Funnily

, I can sort of see where you're coming from here. In that game I actually went to the effort of skimming some of his *other* completed games and found he was generally just not a talker.
But yes he does seem a bit more interested in trite this game compared to his lurky-but-pushy self in our last game.

Why is it funny that we would both come up with similar meta reads on another player?

I'm not just being picky with that question, I have a point. I think I got an early scum rep with some people and my abrasive style keeps them from getting past that. But, if you objectively consider my entire contribution (such as the above on FAQ2) and my motivations you'll likely come to a different conclusion.

[Persivul]

Yeah. You know what? I'm not answering that question. Because I practically already answered that question. If you can't put a two piece puzzle together, I can't help you out.

Hear, hear.

[Persivul]

The Davsto wagon is hitting resistance, and

I don't think that's a coincidence

. In particular, I believe several people have said that commenting on flavor and having fun with it isn't scummy.

That's not the point. Commenting on flavor is fine. Not commenting on anything else for four pages despite looking at the game at least four times

is definitely scummy

. Characterizing the issues that I and multiple others take with Davsto as simply taking issue with the "fun with flavor" is a strawman.

If it's not a coincidence, what is it? That could imply that people are reading him as town, or that scum are purposely resisting the wagon. It's not clear to me from your post which you think it is.

[Persivul]

Please provide meta evidence for your statements about my meta, because it's just blatantly wrong. I'm super aggressive as scum. It's a hallmark of my play.

I'm not sure who you're talking to here, but...in 142 you said:

I routinely re-read old games of mine to identify differences in my town and scum meta and fix them. I find that openness is the best policy both for my town and scum games because it encourages people to read me based on motivations, not based on my meta, which I deliberately obscure.

So, you claim your meta is obscure when it suits you. But now, you say that aggressiveness is a hallmark of your scum play. This seems contradictory. Plus, you implied in 206 that you've been aggressive in this game, which you now say is scummy for you. Care to clear this up?

[Persivul]

Regarding Frozen I have to downgrade my lean town read to scummy side of null based on meta. It's not a lot to go on but FWIW here's a town and a scum game. The town game was more relaxed, the scum game was more aggressive. This game reads more like the scum game. Frozen actually seems more comfortable as scum than as town.

Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64070

Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156

[Persivul]

I've pointed to a specific thing I didn't like that you did

. I asked you for an explanation and made it very clear that I would reconsider in light of new information if you provided one. The idea that I'm just tunneling for no reason is crazy. You've replied to me directly multiple times and basically told me to go fuck myself when I asked you to simply explain your rationale. Oh wait - you literally did tell me to go fuck off one time.

And yes, that one specific thing was sloppy. When I'm town I don't pay as close attention to such things.

And you have the audacity to say I'm tunneling/confbiasing? GIVE ME A REASON NOT TO SCUMREAD YOU. It's not like I'm shutting out new information. You're just refusing to provide it.

Consider my entire contribution rather than fixating on that one specific thing which you didn't like.

[Persivul]

If you're seriously suggesting that I'm only attempting to have you lynched because you won one of my games, then I'm both offended and generally confused. That makes no sense.

I'm suggesting that you started with a focus on me because you've seen me be successful as scum. I did the same thing with FAQ2. A player known to be successful as scum is obviously more of a threat than one who is known to be easy to read as scum, so it makes sense to pressure those early.

BTW, did you consider my results in the two games you modded?

As town, I was lynched D1.

As scum, I didn't get higher than L-4 the entire game.

That's because as scum I'm more careful with what I say, while as town I'm not trying to hide anything and so I'm not as conscious of what I say or how my votes transition.

[Persivul]

I'm saying that your characterization that I'm not aggressive as scum, was not aggressive in this game, and therefore I'm scum is blatantly incorrect.

Where did I say that?

[Persivul]

Regarding Frozen I have to downgrade my lean town read to scummy side of null based on meta.

It's not a lot to go on but FWIW

here's a town and a scum game. The town game was more relaxed, the scum game was more aggressive. This game reads more like the scum game. Frozen actually seems more comfortable as scum than as town.

Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64070

Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156

Oh, a sample size of 2.

rolls eyes

Yes, I knew you'd say something like that, hence the disclaimer bolded above.

[Persivul]

Please provide meta evidence for your statements about my meta, because it's just blatantly wrong. I'm super aggressive as scum. It's a hallmark of my play.

Who was this to, and what post(s) does it refer to?

[Persivul]

I can see Rob as scum or as conf biasing town. Frozen I have a town lean on.

FAQ2

as usual doesn't give much to go on, but I don't like what I've seen.

As scum he has a higher number of fairly benign questions with little follow up, as town he is more aggressive and takes more stances. See his ISO from 90 - 106 for fairly benign questions which haven't been followed up.

It was in response to this post, specifically the bolded (my emphasis).

Yeah, maybe you should have bolded FAQ2 as well, since he's the person that your bolded obviously refers to.

[Persivul]

if Persi by any chance flips town your my next target.

Scum like to set up the next day's lynch.

its definitely not that

You ever saw my scum games?

First, you don't get to dictate what factors people read you on.

Second, the above appears to be an invitation to look look up your meta, so I did.

[Persivul]

I'm kind of tired to answer anything to people who assume my meta and try to judge me based on that. this is it. I can't take this anymore.

1 more mentioning anything about meta reading me and I will quit the game. I'm fucking here to play this fucking current game. I'm so damn sick of this amount of try for meta reading me based on wrong assumptions.

I used to have a negative view of meta too, BUT...consider the analogy. Mafia is supposed to represent a town come together as a lynch mob. In a town, you would know people - some more, some less - and yes, it's reasonable to think that you'd have some idea of when they're telling the truth and when they're lying based on past experience. So, conceptually, meta is fair play.

[Persivul]

I can see Rob as scum or as conf biasing town. Frozen I have a town lean on.

FAQ2

as usual doesn't give much to go on, but I don't like what I've seen.

As scum he has a higher number of fairly benign questions with little follow up, as town he is more aggressive and takes more stances. See his ISO from 90 - 106 for fairly benign questions which haven't been followed up.

It was in response to this post, specifically the bolded (my emphasis).

Yeah, maybe you should have bolded FAQ2 as well, since he's the person that your bolded obviously refers to.

Being a little self-conscious Rob?

[Persivul]

Oops, reading comprehension isn't my strong suit. I thought it was referring to me and didn't bother checking the ISO numbers. Whoops.

What do you think of the charge on FAQ2? Plot agrees with it to some extent.

[Persivul]

Am I being self-conscious regarding a player who is back-tracking on their past reads so they can off someone who's vocally opposing them?

That's not being self-conscious, that's being conscious of another player.

Reading another player's post and assuming they're talking about you when they're not - that's self-conscious, or just an honest mistake.

[Persivul]

No-one appears to be considering my case. It hasn't been a topic of conversation.

No one but you, me and Frozen are doing anything. I'm concerned that we're all town and scum are lurking and laughing. I don't mind dying D1 if my flip helps people read scum, but I'm not at all confident that will be the case at this point.

[Persivul]

Persivul (4): FA_Q2, Rob13, Frozen Angel, Plottin Kittehs

Not sure if this VC is still accurate, but I'd call it: scummy, not sure, not sure, emotional (Plottin didn't like that I was a dick to Frozen).

[Persivul]

Currently Frozen and I combined have more posts than everyone else combined.

[Persivul]

Read Kuori's ISO:

Feels

very townie, but when you look for real content there isn't much there.

[Persivul]

I'll vote him for lurking (not that my vote means a whole lot these days)
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aristophanes

[Persivul]

Rob bitching about that transition in 3...2...1...

[Persivul]

Frozen Angel: I was going to say slightly scum, until she started mentioning mental illness. I hate reading things like this because when we mention medical disorders or anything like that, it detracts from the game and makes the game more personal. As I've been in games that ended it people hating others, I really hate seeing fun games getting personal. Still, in the spirit of not thinking of this game being personal, I'll put her in slightly scummy territory.

forget mental thing. talk to me. why

He gave reads on you, me, Rob, NM, and Soren...and all you care about is why he finds you scummy...

[Persivul]

Yeah, it was underwhelming, but it's something I suppose.

[Persivul]

ctually, this does lessen the scumminess I have on her. Mafia don't want to have attention on themselves and especially when there's no reason to try to defend themselves.

Some scum are like that. Some try to nip every scum read on them in the bud.

[Persivul]

Aristophanes has been prodded.

TRANSITION ALERT

Since I voted ari for lurking but he has now been prodded, my vote is no longer needed there and I'm moving it to:

VOTE: FA_Q2

[Persivul]

Davsto has posted elsewhere today. Looks like instead of scum hunting he's just waiting for pressure on himself to subside...

[Persivul]

Broseiden's been very active today in other threads.

[Persivul]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the term ISO. What does that mean?

ISO looks at just one player's posts. I presume it's short from isolation but don't really know that. As Frozen said you can click on ISO in any post to ISO that player. Better yet, click on Activity Overview in the bottom right of your screen. THere you can see how many posts a player has and how long since their last post. If you click on the number of posts that will also get you to the ISO.

[Persivul]

Per what do you hope to accomplish with vote hoping?

Put pressure on people.

Like most people are not even going to care about your one vote

Yes, I acknowledged that myself, but that doesn't mean I stop trying.

[Persivul]

Prodge. I'll do some shit some time today when I have time and it's not 9AM.

Bullshit. You made half a dozen posts in other threads over the course of the next hour.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Davsto

[Persivul]

A vote is not pressure asking questions is

And I've asked a lot more questions in this game than you have.

Why do you pretend otherwise? Am I just an easy target for you to do some pretend scum hunting? Plenty of people in this game have asked far fewer questions than I have. Why aren't you saying this to them?

[Persivul]

A vote is not pressure asking questions is

Interesting that you voted me without asking me any questions...

[Persivul]

Prodge. I'll do some shit some time today when I have time and it's not 9AM.

Bullshit. You made half a dozen posts in other threads over the course of the next hour.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Davsto

Because reading like 9 pages is really convenient and quick, amirite?

I prioritise some games over others. This is low on my list right now. Give me some goddamn space.

So this game isn't a high priority...yet when you get a vote you notice it and respond within four minutes.

[Persivul]

When I say that I'm going to do something, I fucking do it. Leave me alone until I can do so.

This game is going to become a repeat of Prozac's BT4 at this rate and that was awful for me.

If so it's your own damn fault. You lied. If you said

Hey I'll post later, I have more important games right now

, that would have been fine. Note that while others were voting you for lack of activity, I was giving you a break based on your claim that you're slow D1. I'm willing to cut people some slack if they're honest about why they need it. But when you blame your lack of posting on the time of day, then go on to immediately post elsewhere, that's suspicious. Deal with it.

[Persivul]

@Per
My vote is half gut half sheeping. I said so when I made it.

Why did you bother making it, if you believe that votes don't cause pressure, questions do?

Do you think voteparking is townie? Personally I see it as scummy.

Never said I have been more productive, I simple said that vote jumping is pretty bleh way to pressure.

Yep, you haven't done much at all in this game, then you come on to pressure the person with the biggest wagon. Got it!

Something interesting that you

have

done is defend Davsto 3 times: 117, 146, 164. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt based partially on your 146. Now I'm wondering if you're scum together.

[Persivul]

@Per

Cause I was curious as to why you were switching votes

I think it is null

If you take a question about vote jumping as pressure. Uh ok I guess.

If it was just idle curiosity, it was just fluff and you're not here to scum hunt.

164 is more of a reason to scumread soren than a defense of Dav tbh

OK, in your first six posts you had two direct defenses of davsto and one indirect defense.

[Persivul]

As I mentioned before I am in that state were most people are different shades of null.

Of course, as you've barely participated. That's the problem. You don't seem interested in moving beyond that state. Although you are interested in defending davsto for some reason.

[Persivul]

Prodging to say that I still like Rob better than Persivul.

Interesting that with all I've done, you view me simply in terms of my interactions with Rob. You'll likely deny that, but that's how you phrased it.

[Persivul]

it's not really emotional; I think it's more likely for scum to be a dick about real life stuff than town,

because

scum know that they know the person is town and they're trying to fake town paranoia and they think that if they give in and acknowledge the person is upset for real it's the same as admitting that they're town when in reality town are just as likely to use AtE as scum are and being a dick also contributes to a toxic gamestate which benefits scum more than it benefits town.

I don't recall that I

was

a dick about real life stuff.

I said "Are you insane?" rhetorically due to a patently false claim. I didn't expect a

yes

response. When I got it, I sincerely suggested that she consider not playing mafia, as it's a game designed to fuck with people's minds.

Like it's not a flat across the board all instances of being a dick = scum, that would be a dumb argument and it depends on the player themselves too. it's...being a dick in a certain way, a sort of over the topness about it that i find hard to explain but i know it when I see it,

Actually, no, you don't.

[Persivul]

Yea pretty much so. I mean if your reason was bad it might have evolved into something but it didn't.

As I mentioned before

I am in that state were most people are different shades of null

.

Nah I stopped defending Dav. He should get his shit together.

Also

I generally get reads by reading what is happening

unless something grabs my attention enough to pursue.

.

That method apparently isn't working very well.

[Persivul]

Good post by davsto. Whether Rob's scum or town, it would be easier for scum to side with him rather than me as Rob has greater site cred and popularity.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: shiro

[Persivul]

Can you say Frozen or Angel instead of FA since we have FA_Q2 in the game? Thanks.

[Persivul]

A vote is not pressure asking questions is

And I've asked a lot more questions in this game than you have.

Why do you pretend otherwise? Am I just an easy target for you to do some pretend scum hunting? Plenty of people in this game have asked far fewer questions than I have. Why aren't you saying this to them?

Why is everything quantity over quality to you?

It isn't. I've changed reads on some people based on a few posts when those posts were high or low quality.

Why the hyperbole?

Sure, you've asked more questions.
Sure, you've made more posts (you mentioned this multiple times).
Sure, you're more active.

Do any of these mean anything?

Yes. The premise of the game is that an uninformed majority needs to generate information in order to win. I'm generating information in many directions. That's townie.

Not necessarily.

What's the point of saying this? Yes, we all get that there's very little in mafia that necessarily leads to a certain conclusion. Yes, sometimes the top D1 poster is scum. But, this is a game of probabilities, and scum generally don't go out of their way to question multiple people, shift their vote around, post full reads lists, and rack up the highest post count on D1.

In fact, I more often see scum stress this than town, as they want the credit for doing so to make sure their efforts aren't wasted.

This, combined with your constant pushing of "I have nothing to hide" gives you a big old FoS.

More hyperbole. Give the quotes that show me constantly pushing that I have nothing to hide. If you can't, then explain the misrep.

[Persivul]

Pers and Dav can't be scum together due to a recent meta tell from Pers. I will not disclose the tell, because I expect it will continue to be useful in the future. It's a definitive tell.

just an interesting fyi

Now I'm trying to figure out who should keep my scumread. Leaning Pers. Can someone I trust (Ari/Kittehs/Adaptive) confirm whether Dav's meta of being extremely slow Day 1 is legit?

I'll take Spot the Error in the Theory for $600, Alex.

This would have been a neat play if it had worked. Lynch me, then when I flip town, you have a built-in case to push davsto tomorrow. When he flips town, you merely say that you must have been wrong about the tell.

But, you didn't think it all the way through.

A person can only have a definitive tell about something they actually know. Player X can only give a definitive tell that Player Y is an opposing alignment if Player X actually knows Player Y's alignment. If Player X is town, he

can't know

Player Y's alignment. So, you should necessarily have concluded from the alleged tell that I'm scum and davsto is town. Instead, you pretend that you're not sure which of us is the scum. This is because you don't want to clear davsto, since he made a good case on you in 471.

How many lies are you going to tell to try to frame me?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rob13

[Persivul]

Town

Davsto

Lean town

Aristophanes
Plottin Kittehs
Soren
Kuroi

Null

Frozen Angel
Adaptive Heap
Not_Mafia
BROseidon

Lean scum

Shiro
FAQ2

Scum

Rob13

[Persivul]

Uh ... what? I said you can't be scum together, not that one of you has to be scum.

Yes, you clearly implied that one of us has to be scum when you said, "Now I'm trying to figure out who should keep my scumread."

[Persivul]

Pers is really invested in making me his counter wagon.

How do you figure that? I've been engaging other people, moving my vote around, and I kept you at null until this latest bullshit with the mysterious tell. I have not at all been invested in making you a counter wagon. Other people did that on their own because they find you scummy.

He's determined to paint me as a compulsive liar, but every single thing he points out just doesn't make sense.

You've been caught up in lies, and not just by me.

[Persivul]

And with that vc, Persi is at L-1 now

I just recently updated my reads list, so I'm cool with a lynch now. I've already crumbed and softed my role (and Rob has presumably seen it), so I don't see a need to claim. If I'm around in twilight I'll point those out.

[Persivul]

I particularly liked Shiro's criticism of Persi's play, in his 447 and 449. He raises an important point that Persi is faking an attempt to pressure players. With the mention of Shiro, I have to say that he is ringing town to me. He may not have posted much, but what he has posted is informing me that he has a town mindset coming into the game, while he is not actively pushing people, he is noticing the little holes that scum were unable to cover up in their plays.

Kuroi is my next scum read that I wish to focus on. Assuming that Persi is scum, Kuroi's 157 would make so much sense if they were scum buddies together. Showing and interest in the scum read but at the same time defending him?

Remember these when I flip.

[Persivul]

Actually please hold off on the hammer, I have a question out to mod.

[Persivul]

There's a piece of flavor in my role PM that may or may not (I know nothing about the show) help me. I PM'd the mod to ask if I'm allowed to say what I want to say, or if that would be considered quoting a PM.

[Persivul]

Remember it for what?

I would think a green flip would alter those.

[Persivul]

There's a piece of flavor in my role PM that may or may not (I know nothing about the show) help me. I PM'd the mod to ask if I'm allowed to say what I want to say, or if that would be considered quoting a PM.

Mod shot me down, so feel free to hammer.

[Persivul]

As I'm pretty much a sure lynch I suppose it won't hurt. If it changes enough opinion to spare me, I'll have to hope for doc protection.

[Persivul]

Did you catch the soft?

[Persivul]

As you see now, the knife refers to SK, who kills with a knife. This is my first attempt at crumbing/softing so I apologize if it was clumsy.

[Persivul]

@ kuroi: No, it's not Dr Who related. I'm an FBI agent. I investigate each night for serial killer only. (Actually the flavor name is different, but it's an FBI agent.)

[Persivul]

@ Plot - I don't know the flavor and so I can't tell if there are hints about the SK. Mod shot me down on using a single word from my role PM so I'm reluctant to say anything more.

Standard does not equal frequent. It's standard in that I have the exact ability given in the wiki for an FBI agent.

I'm hoping the last part isn't accurate, i.e. if there's no SK then I was basically screwed and made a named VT.

[Persivul]

Persivul - I'm a bit sketchy on your top-tier town on Davsto, too. Not considering the possibility he could be WK-ing you?

Again, it would be much easier for him to take Rob's side or to take no side in me v. Rob. Further, he gave good reasoning, quoting posts and showing Rob lying, then moving the goalposts. Third, town is usually lynched D1, so people don't get much credit for opposing a D1 town lynch - there's not much to be gained from WKing D1.

Are you concerned that Rob is still full steam ahead, requesting intent despite my claim? Further, consider the claim. It doesn't prove that there's an SK per the wiki, but it strongly suggests it. Since Rob knew the claim, he could have shifted focus today and waited to see if there are two kills, which would support my claim. If only one kill, he could have revealed the crumb and pushed me tomorrow. You could argue that FBI agent is a safe fakeclaim for the SK himself, but my play in no way indicates me as SK. I've never played SK but I imagine you have to remain pretty well under the radar to be successful.

[Persivul]

I do expect intent to hammer and a minimum of a 12 hour wait period before a hammer, by the way.

Actually I retract that he requested intent - this isn't necessarily a request. The argument to back off until D2 is still valid though.

[Persivul]

This is making me reconsider. My gut over the last page is telling me I'm wrong about Pers, and my gut is more often right than not.

Which is annoying because it's basically a reset for me, but it is what it is.

UNVOTE:

That transition is as awful as anything I've done in this game.

[Persivul]

Ultimately I question the actual content which he brought in his catch-up post and wonder if you're just blind to it because he said what you wanted to hear.

That's probably part of it, BUT...if he's scum, what's his incentive to curry MY favor at that point in the game? I just don't see it.

[Persivul]

He was already voting you... If you're both town then he just sits on his current vote.
And you talk about asking obvious quesitons.

Huh? That was in reference to davsto, who was not voting me.

[Persivul]

Seriously I should not be posting in this hydra right now.

Yep.

[Persivul]

Davsto is town why?

For reasons already given. Making a lengthy incriminating post with post references is not "just sitting" on one's vote. And you still haven't answered my question - what's in it for davsto to side with me and antagonize Rob?

Typically when I'm supporting the person under heaviest fire on D1, I'm town. And typically, someone accuses me of WKing. That's a charge that IMO gets thrown around too much lately, and shouldn't be made until there's a flip.

[Persivul]

And Pers, if you're claiming you're town, what on earth would be my motivation as scum to try to kill your wagon when I could have pressed forward for a hammer?

Like, if I just jumped off and let others continue it, you could claim I was trying to get off a wagon on town, maybe (although I think that's a shit tell; no scum actually does that). I'm actively trying to kill the wagon, though. It doesn't make any sense.

Uh, all you've done is jump off my wagon. You haven't placed another vote. You haven't urged anyone else to leave my wagon. You are not actively trying to kill my wagon. This is another lie.

If you're referring to putting up the crumb as actively trying to kill my wagon, your motivation for that was 546, in which I noted that I had crumbed and softed my role, that you had likely seen it, and that if lynched I would reveal them in twilight. You would have looked scummy as hell when I flipped as claimed, so you needed to back off. And again, you haven't urged anyone else to unvote me.

[Persivul]

Getting extremely tired of you flinging a bunch of inane shit my way. It's abrasive and annoying, and it's making me not want to be in this game. I have no problem being pushed for things that make at least a modicum of sense, but you're straight up attacking me for the sake of attacking me without even considering what you're saying. Good lord.

And now AtE.

[Persivul]

This reasoning is flawed. Why would an SK fakeclaim FBI Agent? Through being an SK, he'd know there's quite a risk of there being an FBI Agent in the game, and as such fakeclaiming FBI brings with it quite a decent chance of being counter-claimed.

Good point, I missed that too.

[Persivul]

Kuroi, I get the initial resistance, but can you get an avatar?

[Persivul]

It makes it a lot easier to quickly identify who posted what.

[Persivul]

No, it's me telling you to back the fuck off before I replace out. Playing with you is like hitting myself in the head with a hammer repeatedly.

And now doubling down on AtE.

[Persivul]

and ATE is alignment indicative?

Yes, it's generally considered scummy.

[Persivul]

I'm happy with my vote on persival

What do you think about my claim? SKs can be tough to find, as they are also uninformed and so they don't give typical scum tells - they can scum hunt just the same as town.

[Persivul]

I can see an easy claim for scum to hide.

Not really. When there's only 1 kill per night, they'd eventually look suspicious. One NK could be explained short-term with protects, roleblocks, etc, but not forever. When there's an SK, there tends to be two kills.

[Persivul]

you could be the sk himself

Yes, I considered that, but as someone noted, if you're SK, you know there's a chance of an FBI agent, so that would be a risky claim - if countered, you're dead.

and by setup spec you can see if the game is multiball or not so nah I can see that

As I understand it, multi-ball refers to two or more scum factions on this site. An SK is a third party, not a scum faction.

[Persivul]

As I said, mod shot me down on revealing a single word, so I'm not saying more.

[Persivul]

@Per
Since you meant to attempt to reveal flavour stuff. Does you flavour mention The master by any chance?

Unvote

mod, can I answer this?

[Persivul]

@Shiro: No, my role PM does not mention "The master."

[Persivul]

I think persi is lying. I can't see that why should mod stop him from mentioning his flavour. that's just stupid. how he can role claim but not flavour claim?!

Ask the mod about it if you don't believe me.

[Persivul]

I suggest looking for scum in {Rob, FAQ2, Frozen, Shiro}. Later.

Mod, please replace me.