Open 623 (White Flag) - A Moment in Time (Over)

[Yonom]

Good evening everyone.

VOTE: AlwaysInnocent Always innocent? I doubt that.

Given that this setup is white flag, what do you think of bussing in this game? Will scum do it?

I don't think the mafia are going to bus early in the game and it seems like a risky play with this setup. It just doesn't seem like a good strategy.

I can imagine a scum would try it if they are forced into defending themselves, it's always sweet to see how people react when they are put in panic

[Yonom]

I think you're scum with SS. Discuss.

I think you're trying too hard to jump into conclusions.

[Yonom]

Best to just play the game naturally instead of planning out our strategies D1. If I don't know what I'm doing the Mafia surely can't counter my play.

I think you're scum with SS. Discuss.

I think you're scum with Rhazh and you're distancing.

I think you're scum with SS and Rhazh and you're all distancing.

[Yonom]

I kinda have to agree with SirCakez and PC here, Something_Smart seems to be jumping on conclusions too fast and too randomly.

VOTE: Something_Smart

[Yonom]

Yonom's done very little except jump onto L-2 with scummy reasoning.

Scummy reasoning? How?

And yes, it was

just

L-2. Forces you to speak for yourself a little more and give us more text to analyse. Honestly, I don't think we should lynch you just yet since there aren't too many good reasons for that. I still think you've been acting the most suspicious of all.

It would be dumb for mafia to hammer the vote. If someone did that, they would rise too many suspicions and definitely get lynched on D2. So that wasn't a worry when I decided to vote for you.

Sorry if I'm a little shy, I've been reading everything and I'll make sure to let you know if I see something interesting. Lots of the accusations made so far are kinda lame (esp. the ones about the random votes lol), I tend to look for more serious reads.

[Yonom]

I kinda have to agree with SirCakez and PC here, Something_Smart seems to be jumping on conclusions too fast and too randomly.

VOTE: Something_Smart

This was your only explanation for your vote. It seems like a weak buddying attempt and a crap explanation that could easily apply to several other players (how is the flashwagon on me not jumping to conclusions?). What I did was neither too fast (barely out of RVS) nor random (I gave reasons for each vote), and that qualifies your vote as opportunism.

Pfft, buddying attempt? If I were trying to buddy, I would do it in

style

and not like that. SirCakez is the 2nd scummiest on my list and don't think I would want to buddy them.

Now, back to why I voted on you:
Like I already explained, I wanted to increase pressure on you and see how you will react. Town wont get anywhere in this game if we all idle and wait for a miracle. I did refrain from voting for you earlier on when the first few votes were cast, because I was waiting for better options but nothing really good came up. This is not how I would behave if I were trying to sieze an "opportunity". I still don't have the intention to fully lynch you and if you already were L-2 back then, I wouldn't be putting down my vote on you right now.

If you disagree with my argumentation, I'm cool with that, but know that I'm not the only one in town who thinks you are scummy (see the other votes). Don't make too much out of it, it's just a vote. Anyway, what I see that you're trying way too hard to save your ass, you're focusing on attacking and calling out players that have a vote on you. Seems very egoistical, not how I expect town to behave. I don't think you will get too far with this strategy...

[Yonom]

It just so happens that two of the three I don't like are on my wagon, a wagon which half the players who have posted are on.

Ah, true. I admit my logical fallacy (whops!) and take back what I said in my last paragraph, thanks for correcting me on it.

Just because I think you are acting a bit odd or scummy doesn't mean that I would want to lynch you right away. We still have 12 (real life) days left and it would be silly to jump to any conclusion this fast.

Right now, my biggest scumreads are AlwaysInnocent and Yonom.

If I'm allowed to express my opinion here, I'd like to ask you this: You seemed pretty convinced about SirCakez's scummy behavior and earlier, Rhazh's. What made you change your opinion about those two people?

[Yonom]

Why no mention of this before in your "I agree with SirCakez and PC" post?

I wanted to give my vote to SS for the reasons I have already explained in my last few posts. I didn't expect you guys to be nitpicking this much and call it a buddying attempt (I think it is silly). Therefore I did not express my opinion on you, just like I didn't talk about any other player's behavior (other than SS) in that post. I just didn't see the need to do so.
Although now that I think about it, I probably should have

Hope this clears it up.

[Yonom]

Why no mention of this before in your "I agree with SirCakez and PC" post?

I wanted to give my vote to SS for the reasons I have already explained in my last few posts. I didn't expect you guys to be nitpicking this much and call it a buddying attempt (I think it is silly). Therefore I did not express my opinion on you, just like I didn't talk about any other player's behavior (other than SS) in that post. I just didn't see the need to do so.
Although now that I think about it, I probably should have

Hope this clears it up.

Just to be clear. I don't think accusing me of a buddying attempt is scummy. I can understand it from your point of view and I'd expect town to act in the same way.

[Yonom]

I just got back, I'll be catching up on the thread now.

I kinda have to agree with SirCakez and PC here, Something_Smart seems to be jumping on conclusions too fast and too randomly.

VOTE: Something_Smart

This is likely scum if SS is scum.

Eh, what an uncomfortable position you are putting me in.
This

could

be a pretty good attempt at scaring me off Smart's wagon (by making the result I am hoping for be unfavorable to me). Although maybe I'm reading too much into this, there wasn't much about EE that caught my eye as scummy.

I'm staying with my Something_Smart vote for now. I hope you realize it isn't fair judgement to think I am scum if just because SS is.

[Yonom]

@Cerb, That post was not a joke. You'll find I don't joke much. I was detecting a sudden desire by Rh to talk theory, drag the game down and not focusing on SS. I was pressuring there. I am rather surprised you find me using the word "Discuss" as a joke. You know I am super serious compared to most.

@all, Can anyone give me a reason on Cakez beyond he's obvtown and pushing scum...like really

Titus is scum.

Discuss.

Please, this is the second time you say "Discuss." like this. Don't you have any opinion on the matter yourself?

Is this even a joke or serious? If it's a joke, I don't see why you felt like making this joke at all.

Titus is one of the players here that I'm starting to respect. She has been making good points and is very good at expressing her opinion. Which means that it will be very hard to read her alignment this early. I'm keeping my neutral position on her until we have more data to analyse her behavior, I don't think we can read too much out her words. She has been behaving very townish but I trust her to be just as good misleading town if she were mafia.

[Yonom]

Eh, what an uncomfortable position you are putting me in.
This could be a pretty good attempt at scaring me off Smart's wagon (by making the result I am hoping for be unfavorable to me). Although maybe I'm reading too much into this, there wasn't much about EE that caught my eye as scummy.

for some reason this comes off
as an attempt to reframe the thought against you
solely so you can push it

like can you expand on why you voted for ss
why is your first reaction to make the other guy look guilty

I'm just trying to defend my position yo

It's the whole thing that ss keeps doing that seems very odd. He first makes one statement, sounding very convinced and serious. Like here:

VOTE: Rhazh
Attacking people without voting to support it, making unprompted references to what the scum want or do, inconsistencies in play. Overall feels like he is trying to fit in and play like everyone else is.

Then he is called out by SirC to be scummy.

PC, Cow and Titus can go in the town pile.
SS and Rhazh can go in the scum pile.
Cerberus can be in the null pile alone.

I don't think anyone talked about Rhazh after this, and after a while after he saw that the Rhazh subject didn't catch a lot of attention (thats how I see it at least), he switched to voting for SirCakez.

I really started thinking it's odd after he switched his vote again to AI again, not mentioning why he moved away from SirCakez. That seemed like he was trying way too hard to successfully lynch someone. He was basically using every chance he got to switch his vote.

So I thought I would put my vote on him.

Now he has already been called out for this by others and he was able to provide some good explanations. But it's not that hard to come up with a good explanation for any situation. It seems weird that SS always has to go back and explain his actions. Every time he adds a few new details to his excuses, which makes me think he is making up a lot of these things. Example:

I'm almost never confident day 1.
But that doesn't mean I don't have reasons.
And I haven't changed any of those reads. I voted Rhazh because he was mildly scummy. Then you were scummier so I voted you. Then AI was scummier so I voted him.
You're basically saying that once you have one scumread you should ignore everyone else and death tunnel that person. That's antitown.

Thats a lot of new details that he hadn't described before. Yes it makes sense that he thought someone else was scummier, but did he totally forget that he had voted for someone else before? Didn't it seem odd to him to switch his vote without any hint on the previous vote? I personally feel like I'd need to justify the change. It seems like he was too busy focusing on the new person to notice this though, lol. Which makes me question if he actually compared the person he was voting with the older suspects. Which makes me wonder how much thought he puts into his votes and if he knows the implications of a mislynch.

It seems like he is going through the players one by one and also I kinda feel like I'm next on his "list".

[Yonom]

@Titus: I'd put you or anyone else as town as soon as I'd feel confident about it. I haven't been feeling this way about you yet for the reason i already explained and I hope you can understand that. I don't fear you, you could very likely be town and I'd be glad if this was the case, but I'll make up my mind on you later when i have more confidence. I haven't heared anyone analyse your posts too much yet, so maybe the more experienced players could help me out here.

@SS: thanks for the reply. Ill post my thoughts on what you said in ca. 2 hrs because my classes start now.

Sent from my phone.

[Yonom]

2 hours turned into 5.

Thanks Titus, I'll apply your advice about the group requests next time.

Yonom you summed up my thought process pretty well.

It's good to see that we are on the same page.

For instance, I find it likely that I will vote SirCakez soon. This is not because AI has gotten any less scummy, it's just I'm starting to see SirCakez as scum who screwed up how confident he was supposed to be in his reads.
[...]
That last sentence is horrible, however.

Fair enough.

Yonom's analysis is very good but could have come from town or scum. It seems genuine, but it also seems easy enough to fake (I recall faking a similar case in my first game).

@SS: you keep looking left and right to find something to complain, even if it's just about stating the obvious. That won't draw our attention away from you. Your argumentation could be said about pretty much any analysis, it's such a broad claim.

Also, you may want to show us the game you referred to because that could be interesting...

Why are we still discussing this? Something_Smart is obvious town.

@AlwaysInnocent: Recently, you seem sooooo sure about SS being town, I think you should explain to us how you came to this conclusion.

[Yonom]

One big difference I see between your scumgame and mine is that my analysis was made to defend a long-standing position I have been keeping since #115, while your analysis was made to justify a vote on a new person. Other than that, the two analysis are similar in a scary way.

I can understand what you mean now. Thanks a lot for the clarification. I hope my other posts are more helpful at giving you a better impression about myself.

And "finding something to complain" is also called "finding something to analyze." I'm trying to analyze others despite the pressure on me and not be caught up in self-preservation.

Of course, but sometimes you were being a little too nitpicky. This has led you to change your vote so often and it is kinda the underlying reason I think your behavior is odd. Although "finding something to complain" no longer applies to your comment about my analysis, since you have made a fair point there.

[Yonom]

Slotting Yonom as a scumlean, therefore scum.

I'd like an explanation on this, because I don't quite follow.

I was going to ask SirCakez the same, but they already answered it in their read list. Overall I like it, although I'd put you, SirC, a little bit nearer to the null line. The confidence with titus and I comes off as a bit odd. More on that later.

What I want to focus on right now is AlwaysInnocent and SS. There seems to be something odd in the way they interact with eachother. AI is super convinced that SS is town while SS is (was?) very convinced of the opposite.

So @AlwaysInnocent, mind answering the question I asked you earlier?

@AlwaysInnocent: Recently, you seem sooooo sure about SS being town, I think you should explain to us how you came to this conclusion.

[Yonom]

(@Drixx: RhazhBash, NAA and PC seem to have forgotten about the game, can you prod them?)

youre scummy so im reading you scum

Circular reasoning. That wasn't useful at all. I also don't like being called "Yanam". -.-

Reading your previous posts, I'm surprised by how you placed some players, especially because some votes seem inconsistent with what you said in #343. I hope you're able to explain your opinion at least about the most towny + most scummy players on the list, hopefully with proper reasoning this time.

TheCow's readlist seems very biased to me. You aren't behaving towny when you won't tell us why you placed who in which place. How is this helping town?

[Yonom]

Although I can see why someone would want to vote for TheCow, I feel like AI has been acting very stubborn and ignorant lately.

Spoiler: 378,392,399

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

Uhhhhh

What seems to be the problem?

I think the problem is pretty obvious. That vote is terrible >.>

No, it's not. It's a vote on scum.

So I'm guessing you have a better reason than "I'm never townread by town"?

Probably.

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

....Yeah, other people have already said this is really bad, and I'm going to agree with them. This is awful. It seems like you're trying to seem like you know you're town by making enemies with someone who's townreading you. It reeks of some kind of gambit, probably scum.

It is actually an excellent vote. All the reactions I get have been worth it.

So you were reaction testing? What have you learned?

Reaction testing + voting scum.

Okay, but what about my and other people's reactions caused you to change your reads?

It's a secret.

Looking at the way things developed, I feel like the "reaction test" was just an excuse to get you out of the bad position you were in. You seem terrible at defending your position.

This also bothers me:

So @AlwaysInnocent, mind answering the question I asked you earlier?

Tacit knowledge

Like... come on, do you ever try?

Not sure if I'd classify your behavior as scummy. Maybe you're just a terrible citizen.

I recommend you to try and be less silly.

[Yonom]

I gotta agree with Extrapolated Eagle. All the things SS mentioned on the last page are indeed odd, but I just can't see where AI would be going with them. I don't see a lot of town motivation, but I also see no scum motivation.

It's true that AI could be mafia, but I have no reason to believe they are more likely to be scum than anyone else in this game.

Also I have to say it really sucks that we have so many inactive players this game.

[Yonom]

Keep reading please.

I don't like this. Obviously he's going to keep reading. It seems over-anxious to avoid being scumread.

I don't see scum motivation in SirCakez's post. A mislynch is also bad for town, he is defending himself. I would totally behave in the exact same way if Fire voted for me like that.

I see this as an attempt to redirect our attention towards SirC and away from you. Which I would be fine with if your reasoning wasn't completely off. Unfortunately for you, your read is completely bullshit and I clearly see scum motivation.

uh yeah, I know what correct logic is
the post quoted is scumlogic
I used it because I was scum.

I believe that's the case here as well. Thanks for the quote because I couldn't put it in words better.

Droog join us on SS already.

As advisor to the town leader I highly advise that you place your vote on SS and proceed to push in that direction.

Why are you two so eager to get others on SS's wagon halfway through the day?

Don't you feel that something is off about Titus?

Like what?

[Yonom]

I want droog to put his vote down because he's been dancing around it for a while now but hasn't actually put the vote down.

I see why that can be frustrating. However, I also wish to hear a bit more from Fire and NAA's replacement. From the looks of it, pistachi0n is getting replaced too. :/ Analyzing people's behavior is the only way we can progress as town, so I hope you don't wish to end the day this early.

In the case droog / fire are scum, your calls would give them easy explanation for hammering the votes. This hasn't happened so SS is probably scum and we won't learn anything about droog's and fire's reactions. But should SS turn out to be town after all (although it's hard to believe at this point), I'd have an easier time believing that droog and fire are not scum either.

[Yonom]

I'm cool with it if people ASKED to be replaced, real life stuff can sometimes take over. What really sucks is when people just leave and let their prod timer time out, that really wastes our time. :/ Viable strategy if someone is scum, mind you.

[Yonom]

@Viva La Gloria: Welcome back to this game!
My case on SS is mainly explained in #333.

VOTE: Titus

I don't like this way of voting. Not helpful.

No, it is not. That is strategically replacing out. It is not acceptable. Not saying people don't do it, I don't know if anyone has but I do know it's against the rules and ban worthy.

This is a useless conversation that does nothing to find scum though.

It's pretty much impossible to detect, anyone could get away with it. Agreed that this doesn't help us find scum.

[Yonom]

Why do you think my predecessor is more likely to have flaked out as scum than town?
Like, why are we even having this conversation? That's maximum pointless doubt casting.

Agreed that this doesn't help us find scum.

I had a thought that this might help us, but after reading what Cerb said, I concluded that it's better to not meta the reasoning behind people's leaves. I don't think your predecessor is more likely to be scum.

My thoughts on AI are summarized in #455 (related to #451)

I don't have much to say about Titus (too busy to analyse her posts rn).

PEdit:
It seems odd that he has been trying to move votes this often and basically abandoning his earlier votes. I think it is odd.

Wouldn't you think that scum trying to make a false throught process would have a more static version of their past actions than town who had a more fluid thought process that they didn't necessarily get across the first time exactly as they meant it?

You might be right. However, SS's explanations haven't convinced me that he belongs to town.

He also keeps looking left and right to find things to complain, usually with very poor logic. I recommend you to look at his accusations on AI (especially the most recent ones) to see what I mean.

Do you disagree with the authenticity of his explanation for the read change? If so, why?

Yes because he has abandoned previous reads weirdly. He later has told us that his reads on the previous votes are still valid and he just has found a scummier person, but I believe that this explanation can also come from a scum.

[Yonom]

SS is at L-3, sir

*L-2

This just randomly cought my eye. Spooky, all this time I thought SS was L-3.

[Yonom]

How is her [...] weird 180 from scumreading to white knighting / soft defending of the Yonom slot not scummy?

I'm still having trouble seeing what's wrong with this.

I personally thought her reaction was fine. Like EE put it:

I guess I think I've been where you are before? Townread by scum. I was super suspicious then, and I hated that, it felt like everyone was my enemy.

I can see how she would want to avoid a such situation if I turned out to be scum. She also hadn't made her mind about me at the time. Nothing odd imo.

You're townreading her in spite of her incredibly disingenuous push on you?

What's wrong with this? I think the opposite (what SS is doing) is kinda weird:

Null

Yonom-

Seems to be trying to formulate a serious case on me where there is none. [...]

---

We are flipping SS because he's scum. The reasons are in my small ISO. Rvs shiftiness, vote telegraphing, and weaseling from his reads.

What's the motivation behind it when someone "telegraphs" their vote?

I'm allergic to responsibility.

Went back to see what "224" is. Decided to reread Hamlet's Soliloquy instead. rip in peace, oh poor yorkick

I'd be very happy to have you go because of the lack of cooperation.

I want to see SS's role.

What?

I'm liking neither Viva nor titus right now. They're both maneuvering into weird positions that make me uncomfortable.

Ah, yeah that's intentional. Wanna do something about it?

[Yonom]

I vaguely sense hostility from yonam towards me. Weird shit, man.

Your lack of engagement with the game sometimes bothers me. I don't know what to think of it, I feel like you are rather town than scum (without having any serious reads at hand), but my point still stands.

Yanam

I also don't like being called "Yanam". -.-

You're making progress. 50% correct, almost there.

PEdit:
@Fire: He has a strong read on everyone apparently.

[Yonom]

But but... I'm not creative at all...

[Yonom]

No one has even asked me to explain my SS townread for crying out loud.

Ok explain.

---

The only serious read you have on Titus seems to come from the "180" thing. I can see why Titus would behave in such a way as town though, see post 615.

Not sure why we would want to lynch Titus instead of SS, when the case on SS is so much stronger. Please do tell us why you think SS isn't scum.