Mini 1786: Inspirational Mafia (Game Over)

[Kmd4390]

Vote Shea

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote drmy

[Kmd4390]

I’ll be V/LA from approximately 5pm today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Can we please lynch this before he has a chance to fakeclaim?

??? Is this a way out of RVS so soon??

I haven't placed an RVS vote

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. Implosion might be scum

[Kmd4390]

I'm more making a semi-sarcastic remark that his statement is vacuous. It isn't a read.

What if I were to tell you it is a read?

[Kmd4390]

Oh

[Kmd4390]

Tempted to switch back to Shea again.

[Kmd4390]

V/LA for the weekend

[Kmd4390]

Prod dodge. Off work tomorrow night. Will catch up then.

[Kmd4390]

Tempted to switch back to Shea again.

Then why are you not switching back?

I was more confident in drmyscum when I said that. Now, I'm sure this is all outdated. We'll see though.

So I saw spoilers when I was trying to find where I was and stuff and I know Kat got lynched. For what it's worth, I have no problem with the questions toward kage. The only thing that stands out as possibly scummy is "you know I'm going to claim power role" because it's phrased in a way that emphasizes the claim rather than the role itself. It looks like an attempt to stop the wagon, not an honest "hey guys I'm useful". I have slight doubts about that though because it immediately followed "I'm not claiming because the wagon is shit" but that kind of feels softclaimy too. I dunno, I guess it doesn't matter at this point, but hopefully Kat is scum. I'd think a power role would come right out and say "hold up, don't lynch me".

Kage and Creature both feel town to me.

Lowell, why the town reads on BBT and Magna?

Something feels fake about Shea questioning BBT's Kat vote. I get that he's after BBT's motivations, but he never comes close to questioning his own Kat read based on it. I mean maybe he did later, I'm only on Page 6, but nothing like that at all so far. Post 138 also describes exactly how bussing works and then acts like it's a ridiculous concept which I don't like.

Implosion is looking townier now, especially if Kat and Shea both turn out to be scum.

Yeah, Kage is obvtown at this point.

Xyzzy, yeah I do a few different things in the early game and I'm not even sure what makes me decide to do one over the others. In this game, it was the "make it clear my votes are serious but don't explain so we can see who asks" and only Creature did. Unfortunately, that was followed by a 40 hour work week crammed into 3 days immediately followed by a lynch and now I'm rushing my catch up. Anyone who has played with me knows I'm pretty active typically and that's true regardless of alignment.

I've read up to the hammer and mostly just want to make sure I beat the Mod to the submit button so I'll post this as is for now and if I have anything to say to twilight stuff, that will follow shortly. I'm also around today, so if anyone wants to ask me stuff there's that.

[Kmd4390]

Spoiler:

I didn't find UT's vote.

is that a serious claim? if so, why come out with it unprompted this rapidly? I really don't like it either way and you're being really evasive, so

VOTE: Katsuki

Seemed like a desesperate attempt to make a wagon and filling Katsuki with questions cha cha to give an impression of "look how towny my vote is".

VOTE: katsuki

Empty vote. Look later.

VOTE: Katsuki

Empty vote. Look later.

is that a serious claim? if so, why come out with it unprompted this rapidly? I really don't like it either way and you're being really evasive, so

VOTE: Katsuki

Don't like this post, but I'll really know how I feel about it once either xyzzy or katsuki flips. Noting so I don't miss it when I reread later. Also worth noting that xyzzy is the third vote on the wagon (considering he knew I was going to be voting katsuki since I'm proxied to UT.)

>talks about issues with my accountability
>takes 0 accountability for own vote on wagon and shifts responsibility to someone else

hue

Are you joking? I said why I don't like your posts. I led and started this wagon. In what way is that unaccountable? Do you not try to look at the players who are voting with you to discern their alignment? Are you really trying to claim that someone doing that is likely anti town? Thats bizarre.

Third vote on wagon you guys don't even need to read further, Shea is obvscum.

#Jeeptell

Congrats. You just fell for one of my favorite trap scum tells. It's called the "deliberately weak argument." How it works is you make an argument and then somewhere in there you throw in a point that is deliberately bad. Easy to refute. It's a motivation tell to determine if someone is arguing in good faith or not. See, town players tend to address the argument in its entirety, because they want to evaluate the argument and they are interested in determining the alignment of the person making it. Scum, however, don't care about that. They are just arguing to score points. They go directly for the deliberately weak argument and attack it, and avoid the rest of the argument entirely.

You want to know which pattern describes what you just did?

I'll give you a hint. It starts with Sc. And ends with Umfucker.

Playtime is over.

confirm vote: katsuki

Viewing this as towny currently seeing how he's taking the argument.

Walk me through your logic here.

Why so serious?

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Also, if you had a problem with Creature, why did you not vote him and instead continue by RVS'ing SS?

VOTE: xyzzy

Everytime I look at their posts I feel they're just trying to look like town.

How so?

VOTE: Katsuki

Looks good.

Empty vote, but I don't see this coming from scum perspective.

@Shea

- I don't remember so I'm going to ask - do you regularly proxy your vote in Town games to another player pre-game? If so can you give me some game numbers to review? Also - why Untrod?

@Creature

- Any reason at all you've completely ignored Kats and the whole action around her obvious gambit.

I'm trying to get a read on a player whom I've never played with.

Yeah, no. kagesong has clearly stated he's very new. What reaction from a player on their third game on MS would you expect that would be alignment indicative at all from your questions?

Refuses to vote me and pushes back -

Town - Someone seeing through your obvious bullshit.
Scum - Someone being careful not to make what they may perceive as a Trap vote.

Votes for me due to questioning -

Town - Someone new who is awed by a Scummie banner and doesn't know that yours isn't really game-skill relevant
Scum - Someone wary of being pushed on by a Scummie holder and not wanting to draw fire.

Of course both these scenarios purport that you aren't scum with Kage. But there are tons of other reactions - all of which make sense coming from either alignment from new player Kage.

VOTE: Katsuki

This is a Town positive wagon and fully endorse it.

Also Kats is L-1 for those reading along.

Used "town positive wagon" as justification, admitted sheeping.

no, he has way longer than that.

unvote

We are not ending this day until we hear more from people who are not at all involved with this day. I refuse to let them skate by like that.

His "I want to hear more from the inactive people" doesn't exactly contribute with anything.

In fact Lowell might be scummy for 194 if Katsuki is scum; it's possible that he's trying to salvage a bad d1 and leverage the existing sentiment of kats scum implying shea scum into a day two mislynch.

For now though, I'm going to join Shea. Honestly partially because I'll be bored if this game goes into night too early. But partially because I thought snarky's posting so far was ever so slightly scummy and I really would like to see more from him (and others too).

Unvote

Sheeping Shea? Also used the "inactive people" as excuse to the unvote, but actually mentioned someone who was worrying him.

VOTE: Katsuki

We're gunna keep him at l-2. I don't want the day to end without people chiming in but I also do not want to give smoke and cover for potential katsuki scumbuddies to quietly let the wagon dissipate.

Changed your mind pretty quickly, not?

Well, I think it's just your paranoia.

VOTE: Katsuki

We're gunna keep him at l-2. I don't want the day to end without people chiming in but I also do not want to give smoke and cover for potential katsuki scumbuddies to quietly let the wagon dissipate.

Stop speaking for the town. You have your vote alone, stop coaching and trying to manipulate town.
VOTE: kat
I think l-1 is a fine place for kat to be. He is obviously scum.

Not exactly an AI vote, but currently leaning town.

If he's actually scumreading Shea, I wonder why he actually voted Katsuki.

OK

VOTE: Katsuki

Yes, I know I look bad if she's town. I can handle that.

Shea - you do seem to be coaching. I'm going to leave that open. I have used similar tactics as scum before as it appears you are here. However, your thought train seems to be genuine, which is more towny.

Implosion - Your unvote seems a bit fishy to me. I'm going to keep you under the radar

Shotty - I'm suspicious of you for similar reasons as people will be of me if Katsuki is town. Your threat to vote plus the placement of L-1. This looks bad if Katsuki is town. I hope You're able to handle it, cus you may be next on my list.

Must agree, I don't think this post comes from a scum perspective, but the "I can handle that" looks a bit weird.

So, I'm watching this crap between Shea and Shotty. I don't like either of your posts. But frankly, with the exception of one last piece of info I have to gather, I'm parking my vote on Shea D2. I don't like your noise. I don't know your intent, but I find all the BS arguing posts to be VERY anti-town. You're in they way of finding scum whether or not you are. I will post the requisite info I mention first thing D-2.

I agree with this.

Also agree with Lowell that if Kat flips town, drmy is worthy of a snap vote.

BBT, did you see that we are in twilight?

[Kmd4390]

Before the thread was locked, I was asked:
-why is Kage obvtown?
---Everything about Kage's posts oozes genuine vibes. The whole "please don't townread me for this, it's null" is a good example. Kat was the one who asked this. If any living players want me to, I'll go back and quote every single one. If not, there's where that was coming from
-why does a town Kat mean drmy needs a snap vote Day 2?
---The L-1 vote felt too excited and opportunistic, especially the way he said Kat was "obviously" scum. I think drmy loved the idea that we could lynch a claimed power role and jumped at it. And this came right after Shea unvoted, saying we need more time. So drmy may have been worried the lynch would slip away.

Kage's claim at the Day 2 start is another example of genuine vibes. Was it the right play to claim an innocent so soon? No. Of course not. But why would scum do it? Kage is clearly town. Shea is town as a result. Anyone who disagrees better have a damn good reason. If I'm a protective role, I'll be on Kage tonight. Kage, future reference, you should hold off on that claim unless votes actually start piling up on you and/or Shea. Just saying he's town would have been fine. If people aren't ok with that, you always have the claim in your back pocket.

Implosion, how are you townreading me when I was away for most of Day 1? Not sure that read feels genuine...

Drmy, I thought you were already pretty confident Lowell was scum and unvoted just to give people time to catch up. Now he says something you feel is scummy and you re-vote. Did that really do anything for your read? And do you no longer feel we don't need the time?

Magna's point about Kage's VT result has me interested. With everything already out there, I think Kage needs to fullclaim unfortunately.

Vote drmy

Preview edit: congrats on the baby

[Kmd4390]

Kage, your role wasn't explained in your Role PM?

[Kmd4390]

*shrug*

Is lurkig really THAT scummy though? Isn't Snark pretty known for that? I haven't figured out how to read him yet.

[Kmd4390]

Shea, most of this can be figured out from my posts but here:
Town:
Kmd
Kage
Shea

Town Reads:
Creature
Snark

Weak Town:
Lowell
Magna

Null:
UT

Weak scum:
Implosion
BBT

Scum
Drmy

[Kmd4390]

I'll add reasoning Sunday night or Monday. Working my 16 hour days and sleeping in between right now.

[Kmd4390]

Sorry, V/LA ran an extra day. Will catch up after charging my phone.

[Kmd4390]

Drmy, you asked why I'm scumreading you. Your entrance looked like buddying the newb. Your interactions with Shea were kind of ugly. Your actions around the Kat lynch were off. The way you expressed the lurkerscum read on Snark doesn't feel natural. I get a defensive vibe from your posts. The fact that I vote you and you say "but I'm scumhunting" is weird. As I'm reading up, I also like BBT's pointing out that you poked at him for something pretty null. About that last one by the way, you keep saying you asked it to scumhunt. Can you be more specific? Like what were you expecting as an answer that might tell you anything about his alignment.

BBT, Creature is a meta read. He prefers town and his scum entrances lack confidence. Here, he feels confident even as he's being put down. And the motivation in his posts, even if weak, feels town. This latest attack on him forgetting the NK is BS too.

Shea wanted reasons for the rest of my reads too, so here:
-Kage's posts were ridiculously genuine, especially when he'd do townish things and go "don't town read me for it". The claim only strengthens that read.
-Shea, cleared by Kage
-Snark, this one is subtle. Very subtle. Look at post 309. I'm legit townreading a dude for using a smilie. The facepalm. I think it shows genuine frustration at an unnecessarily exposed power role.
-Lowell. He feels...I dunno. Invested. He's typically pretty low content and his posts here feel more like he wants town to do well. I feel like he believes what he's saying and that his reads are good.
-Magna, while I didn't like his Kat vote and his Day 1 was more underwhelming than I'd expected, I'm starting to understand what he's doing.
-UT. I just can't come up with anything which is why he's null. But I have more town reads than I should so I may look into him more soon. Time permitting of course.
-Implosion. I need to figure out if it's a bias or if there's a reason for it, but I don't find myself agreeing with him and his posts don't feel genuine. There was one thing I remember liking, but if I remember right it relied on Kat being scum.
-BBT, it was his Kat vote I didn't like. His catch up feels good, but BBT is hard for me to read because he's good scum so I have a hard time revising a scum read because of a good catchup.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote Implosion

Looks more viable than drmy and I'm getting a buddying vibe from Implosion right after I called him a scum read that is similar to his posting towards BBT after his Implosion push.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. I forgot about that Implosion post. I'll have to look over those games and see if it's similar or not.

[Kmd4390]

So I know I've been townreading Creature, but his latest interaction with Magna came off as trying to appease him rather than answer his concerns, especially the Implosion vote.

Creature, Magna wanted more info on your drmy scum read. Even if you're now fine with lynching Implosion instead, can you enlighten us on drmy?

Drmy, who specificaly do you think is scum on the Implosion wagon?

[Kmd4390]

Lowell, who voted Implosion as an alternative to Creature?

[Kmd4390]

Ironically, you answered your own question to me in the very next post.

[Kmd4390]

So was I wrong to read confidence in that statement?

[Kmd4390]

I don't see what's scummy about not wanting to no lynch

[Kmd4390]

Creature, he wants to know if you would vote BBT. And I only know drmy's old outdated meta. I can tell from his posting around the site that he's changed a ton though.

Aris is confirmed town. BBT only replaces out as town.

[Kmd4390]

Implosion and drmy. No one will lynch drmy so it's between Implosion and Creature.

[Kmd4390]

Excellent!

I'll read the three slots and probably vote with you then!

Sweet, dude

[Kmd4390]

He did say he was going to claim a power role though...

[Kmd4390]

If implosion is scum, then so is SS.

Huh?

[Kmd4390]

If implosion is scum, then so is SS.

Huh?

^That was me hoping for an explanation

[Kmd4390]

Like who

[Kmd4390]

Gonna sleep first, then catch up.

[Kmd4390]

Creature, remind me why Magna is scum. And what interactions of his and drmy's read as scum/scum and why?

Lowell, I tend to back this up when I can, but Aris is town because BBT replaced out. BBT only replaces out as town.

Drmy, I don't hate you. I just think you are scum in this game. By the way, I don't think that was a lurker callout from Creature. I think he was trying to reach out to his town reads.

I don't think this is going to surprise anyone, but I'm siding with Magna in his discussion with drmy. "I don't buy the claim, *vote" on a town read sounds different than what he's saying now which is "I didn't want a no lynch". It reeks of trying to say the right thing rather than saying/doing what he believed.

[Kmd4390]

Katsuki

(4)- Untrod Tripod,

xyzzy,Thestatusquo, implosion

Creature (2)- MagnaofIllusion, BlueBloodedToffee
drmyshottyizsik (2)-

kagesong

, Kmd4390
Untrod Tripod (1)- SnarkySnowman

kagesong

(1)- Lowell
xyzzy (1)- Creature
Lowell (1)- drmyshottyizsik

Thestatusquo (1)- Katsuki

^Interesting. First serious wagon and 3/4 confirmed town. Look for scum to jump on later, especially if UT is town and especially considering that Kat said he was claiming power role later on.

Katsuki

(6)- Untrod Tripod,

xyzzy, Thestatusquo, implosion,

BlueBloodedToffee, MagnaofIllusion (L-1)
drmyshottyizsik (2)-

kagesong

, Kmd4390
Untrod Tripod (1)- SnarkySnowman

kagesong

(1)- Lowell

xyzzy

(1)- Creature
Lowell (1)- drmyshottyizsik

Thestatusquo (1)- Katsuki

There really shouldn't be any way that UT/BBT/Magna are all town. Hell, BBT/Magna probably shouldn't both be town here. However, BBT is town for the replace out. I need to consider the possibility UT and/or Magna being scum.

Hammer came from confirmed town and not much else changed so no point looking at the final Day 1 vote count.

Lowell (3)-

implosion

, Untrod Tripod, drmyshottyizsik
Creature (2)- Lowell, MagnaofIllusion

Thestatusquo

(1)- SnarkySnowman
drmyshottyizsik (1)- Kmd4390
^Hard to take too much from that until we see some consilidation and/or scum flips. The simple answer is that there is scum in UT/Drmy and that Lowell is town, but there are just too many holes and variables to say that with any real certainty.

implosion

(2)- SnarkySnowman, BlueBloodedToffee
Creature (2)- Lowell, MagnaofIllusion
Lowell (1)- Untrod Tripod
drmyshottyizsik (1)- Kmd4390
BlueBloodedToffee (1)- drmyshottyizsik
SnarkySnowman (1)-

implosion

Again, this is hard because there's no dead scum and 2/3 confirmed town aren't voting in this one but the thing that stands out is that the Lowell wagon died. However, confirmed town jumped off. Drmy switched to BBT alone. And UT stayed. So it's not like anything huge came from it. The day became Implosion vs Creature and no one on the Lowell wagon did anything to change it to that, so *shrug*. Maybe you can argue that because Implosion flipped town, it makes Creature more likely scum, but that feels like a stretch just based on these two votes. I remember him getting more though so maybe that will have some merit before I'm done here.

Creature (4)- Lowell, MagnaofIllusion, drmyshottyizsik,

Thestatusquo

implosion

(2)- SnarkySnowman, BlueBloodedToffee
SnarkySnowman (2)-

implosion

, Untrod Tripod
drmyshottyizsik (1)- Kmd4390

So. Three scenarios:
Scenario 1 - Creature is town. In this case, scum don't have any reason to worry unless Snark is scum. Let's do Snark town first. Scum are probably spread out among the three wagons. So one of Lowell/Magna/drmy, BBT, and UT. I'm not really finding this scenario likely.
Scenario 2 - Same as the first, but with Snark as scum. In this one, UT is probably town and Snark's buddies are on the Creature wagon (Lowell, Magna, Drmy). Because Drmy was on the earlier Lowell wagon, either he was bussing or Magna is scum. In this scenario, scum is likely to shift to the Implosion mislynch later.
Scenario 3 - Creature is scum. Watch for scum to jump all over the Implosion wagon in this case. UT and Snark look bad in this scenario for the simple fact of being off the Creature wagon. (Sorry, I know confirmation bias is showing on BBT but he belongs in this group too technically.

implosion

(5)- SnarkySnowman, BlueBloodedToffee, Kmd4390, MagnaofIllusion,Creature (L-1)
Creature (3)- Lowell, drmyshottyizsik,

Thestatusquo

SnarkySnowman (2)-

implosion

, Untrod Tripod

Ok let's make sense of what happened here. I joined the Implosion wagon and was immediately joined by Magna (who was voting Creature) and Creature (who voted out of self preservation regardless of his own alignment). So, again, Creature's flip is critical to a legitimate analysis, but let's try the scenario game again:
Scenario 1 - Creature is town. Magna is likely scum who jumped ship. Snark was likely scum already on the wagon and Lowell or drmy stayed put on Creature.
Scenario 2 - Creature is scum. Snark still looks bad tbh. And someone is bussing somewhere. Creature town looks more likely I think.

implosion

(6)- SnarkySnowman, Kmd4390, Creature, Aristophanes, Untrod Tripod, drmyshottyizsik (LYNCH)
Creature (3)- Lowell,

Thestatusquo, I Am Innocent

drmyshottyizsik (1)-

implosion

And we end up here. Either Magna and Lowell are BOTH scum who managed to stay off the wagon or this lynch is absolutely loaded with scum. It could be as simple as 2-3 of Snark/UT/drmy with 0-1 of Lowell/Magna or I could be wrong about Creature which explains scum's interest in the Implosion lynch (Creature/Snark/drmy?). I do remember UT hanging on to his Snark vote and only voting implosion to avoid no lynch and unlike drmy, he feels consistent in saying that. So Snark and drmy look like scum if Creature is town and one of Lowell/Magna would be a partner.

Conclusion
So basically here's what has changed in my reads:
Lowell: I wasn't entirely sure where to put him before, but I'm confident he's town now.
UT: Same as Lowell, but not quite as strong.

Magna: I see a lot of scenarios where he is scum. I was shelving him for reasons I don't feel like getting into, but I remember his Kat vote being pretty bad and he seemed to not really care who we lynched between Creature and Implosion. I can see Magna as scum, but not with Creature. Also, I know it's lame but considering his reputation, the old "why is he alive on Day 3" is ringing in the back of my mind.
Snark: Again, he has a lot of scenarios where he fits as scum. I could see myself PoEing him as scum at the very least.

Creature: I'm not one for info lynches, but I see a lot depends on his flip just based on his Day 2 wagon. I mean other people's flips help sort him too so I'm not going to advocate lynching him just to get his flip. As for what has changed in my read on him though, I'm open to the idea that he was scum. I started to see it a little on Day 2, but there are definitely scenarios where he fits now. If he is town though, we've been pretty awful so far.

What hasn't changed in my reads:

BBT

Aris - He's town. The replace out. He just is.
Shea - Kage confirmed him as town
Drmy - Maybe I'm tunneling, but it's hard to see him being town.

[Kmd4390]

Shit, BBT has a lot of games. Well, I'll get around to that another time.

Vote drmy

[Kmd4390]

Shit, BBT has a lot of games. Well, I'll get around to that another time.

Vote drmy

So from your wall post it seems like you have a stronger read on snarky and magna why the vote on me. especially since you even admitted you may be tunneling?

Snark is scummy in the context of a VCA, but most of that is for voteparking Implosion which is meh at best. That's why I said in my conclusion section that I could POE him as scum at some point. Not exactly a strong read. Magna would be strong town if Creature is scum. Probably if you are scum too.

Lowell, can you give me an example of someone voting a specific way just to avoid looking bad in a VCA?

[Kmd4390]

I'd rather keep voting a scum read.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd4390

If Magna and I were town, how would you see everyone else?

I'd be left with drmy and Snark as likely scum then I'd have to reconsider my town reads on UT or Lowell. Probably Lowell unless UT and Snark appear to be cross bussing when I reread them.

[Kmd4390]

Was about to ask the same thing

[Kmd4390]

Why would I need an excuse for my reads to change as more information becomes availible?

[Kmd4390]

*shrug*

[Kmd4390]

I thought Shea was clear. Why is there a "basically"?

[Kmd4390]

I think 751 was more than enough for a claim

[Kmd4390]

I think I'm leaning Snark today. Hammer looks like a poor attempt at town cred and a quick post hammer glance at my VCA shows he makes the most sense.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Snark

[Kmd4390]

VOTE: Lowell for L-1

In the meanwhile, reading on Lowell's creature position.

I'd like to point out that this is the first time Lowell's name appears in Snark's ISO. (Feel free to double check me, but I don't see another)

[Kmd4390]

Just a little

[Kmd4390]

Uhhh

Hello?

[Kmd4390]

Magna, Snark has plenty of opportunity to explain his vote. I doubt it is going to happen though and his vote comes at the same time as the wagon. I can only assume opportunism like Lowell said unless Snark tells us more about the vote.

[Kmd4390]

I'll get caught up tonight or tomorrow.