Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bet $25

VOTE: RC

Red Coyote sounds very much like a slick card-cheat who hides Aces in his sleeves. Also Hi!

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Something_Smart
Policy.

Ok

VOTE: Something Smart

Wagon ho!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you guys think it's worth it to, once we decide on who to lynch, force the scummy players on the wagon to get off and replace them with towny players in order to keep the most possible money in the hands of the town?

Given how hard it tends to be to get players to agree to a lynch in the first place in general site meta do you think it is going to be viable to actually try to arrange wagons in this manner?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fold

Lol no draw?! And no claiming cards?!

Raise $500

So Lane … why did you think concentrating money in someone’s hands (which this bet was more likely than not to accomplish) is a Pro Town move?

Lol still no. I'm afraid to play scum when you're in the game so I'm just going to be town this game

VOTE: Lane

I don't know that's why I was asking

We tried something like that in this game, where I switched off a wagon in order to be the hammer on a claimed supersaint, but even that was screwed up by Anti hammering before I could. I don't know if we could accomplish this, but it seems like it would be helpful if we could.

That game was an open setup with significant role related reasons to orchestrate. And just because players get money from a lynch doesn’t mean they aren’t going to be held accountable for their reasons for being on the wagon.

Translation – hopping / hammering a wagon just to accumulate cash is scummy and will be treated as such.

Wow, so on a scale of 1-10, how good are y'all at poker?

I have realistic expectations – 6. Good enough to do well on average in home games.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@magna. I'm not sure I understand the question. I didn't want to consolidate money into anyone's hands but my own. I didn't expect anyone to call. I want money to get the benefits of getting money. So why am I scummy again?

I find it suspect that you just assumed an immediate All-In would not possibly get called. Especially given you told Pers "I'm not going to win". If anyone calls then odds are overwhelming that one person ends up with $1,000 plus in their bankroll immediately. Which if they are scum is not good for Town.

I could certainly see a pre-game scenario where it was decided to try to consolidate money on one scum via an All-in and scum counterclaim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Secondly, it may be in towns interests to play as many hands as possible to build up money. If you're town and you're bad at poker you should probably say so.

RC's post made me take second look at this -

BBT

- given this is a zero scum game (no individual money flows in aside from the starting pool of $5,500 as far as we know per the rules) what was your thinking behind this suggestion?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Posting for my benefit for later reference – FA and Pers have both made “13 player oops” slips.

The bad part of MM’s full readslist is not that it is not strong. I don’t expect that on Page 4. Why it may be an example of scum play is it appeared right after MM had drawn a couple votes (Infinity and Lane) and has the feel of “Have to post content to look Town before a wagon develops”. Pers’s reaction 92 looks Town. So does Quib’s at 102.

I also an very, very wary of Lane’s buddying / borderline hero worship with Pers. At best it is bad Town play which has caused problems in the past (just look at anyone who are deemed Top Players and you will find a game where they are scum and given a pass due to Hero worship – most recent example I can think of is Killthestory towards Ranger in Open 633 - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=65953 ).

There will be a showdown, right? That might give us some clues as to what happened. If one of the two shows a very premium hand, it's at least unlikely that they are a team.

How do you come to this conclusion – frankly it is the opposite that makes more sense given Pre-Game talk possibilities.

What did you think about RC's post in terms of his alignment?

You can read below but this bring up two questions –

1. Why did you specifically ask me?
2. You post before this seems to not be drawing the same read I am. Why is that? I see your later vote but that vote is basically naked and nothing in your ISO says “I suspect RC” to my eyes.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Please elaborate on what exactly was his Townie reaction.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Does this necessarily point to lane as scum though? I'm thinking no. lane strikes me as the impulsive type. I don't get the feeling that his bet was part of a gambit, but it's something to still consider going forward.

I’m having issues with these linked paragraphs. Specifically the manner in which he just assesses that Lane wouldn’t be scum because he’s impulsive. That doesn’t make any sense given that Lane being an ‘impulsive type’ would be impulsive regardless of the alignment he drew. This looks like reaching to draw a conclusion that he already knows.

Mod, could you put the numerical amount of votes each player has in your VCs? I know I can count them myself, but I'm lazy. Additionally, I think it would be helpful for everyone if you kept track of who's in/out, who called/bet and what, etc. Perhaps in a separate area tag under the VC? Just a suggestion. It would definitely help the game run smoother if we had all the updated info at a glance.

Strikes me as LAMIST to a degree. All of this could have been just as easily handled in a PM. And specifically because it isn’t a question (which others have posted, Pers as I recall most recently) which benefits general knowledge.

VOTE: Red Coyote

Otherwise it could just be someone who tried to bluff and got called. You guys obviously know nothing about poker. People bluff. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. I think it's obvious you guys know nothing about poker to think that there would obviously be a call on all in first hand. You're trying to make it scummy when it isn't.

I think Lane’s response to the pressure has been Null/Reasonable but this post pushes my gut.

Lane made what is the equivalent of Newb101 Poker Bad Play. Going effectively All-In the first hand with what he is claiming is a bad hand is the kind of thing you see from complete novice players. And yet his response is to basically ridicule everyone who suspects him as not understanding poker.

This is 5 card stud with 3 wildcards. Anyone with a modicum of math skills knows that all three Jokers are distributed the first hand. So odds are very favorable that worst case we have three pairs at a minimum among the 11 players. Yet Lane is claiming to understand poker and went all in with a self-proclaimed bad hand?

Doesn’t follow logically for me. Now all this goes away if we get a showdown and Lane actually has a hand that makes sense for trying to draw out calls. But for now I’m still wary of his play.

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

For someone who decried players taking things at face value there is an awful lot you are expecting everyone to just take at face value in this response for it to be reasonable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

See, I agree with FA_Q2's 74 except that I don't see lane's bet as scummy. That said, once we see the hands, I may feel differently.

Please elaborate on what hand combination you think would change your view on Lane and what you think is the situation now with your Town Lane read.

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

This reeks of scum trying to position the argument that there is no logical reason for MM to be Town when the question is very poorly staged.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

But only drawing negative conclusions from the scenario is scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually MM would look a lot better if he had simply said he has a great hand and so he called. Claiming he was pre-empting scum's plan is bad. As has been already noted, if here were really thinking at that level, he would have waited for scum to call before going in himself.

Um ... I was responding to RedCoyote's scernario which absolutely posited scumLane. Yes, it certainly looks very good for MM if he simply called with powerful hand regardless of Lane's alignment. But that was outside of what I was responding to.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would think they would try to get more money in the pot. An all-in like Lane did achieves the opposite.

I disagree. Consolidating two (or more, but that doesn’t look like it is happening) players full starting $500 plus the remaining antes plus any other stray bets is most likely to get the most money into one player’s hands after a single round.

Right now the pot is $1,170. It could even rise to over $1,500 if kappy calls.

To get more money into the post than the $1,170 with the initial $55 in ante requires every player to bet at at a minimum just over $101 per hand. Given the voting pattern we know happened (Quib and Something Smart both folded to a simply $50 bet and Pers folded to a $100 bet) it is very unlikely a non-All-in play generates more money than what happened with Lane’s All-in.

This being said – does this change your opinion?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have not characterized my lane read as a townread. I do not think the evidence is there to call him a scumread, however.

Should he have a bad hand, I will reassess at that time.

Stop dodging the question and answer it directly.

What hand are you expecting in your “Lane isn’t scummy” stance?

This is a reach that is completely unworthy of a vote. There's no response for this other than I hope those straws you're grasping at are soft to the touch.

It’s page 5. Anything is going to be a stretch at this point as the game is a whopping 24 hours old. You’ve been around long enough to understand this. Yet you begin with the discrediting language in your first response.

Why shouldn't I acknowledge the elephant in the room? I think you (or someone else) would've criticized me if I didn't address lane or apply this specific argument toward lane. I mean, he's the only one it applys to at this point, after all.

If lane is impulsive, it necessarily weakens the argument that this move was calculated. Because if he's impulsive, he'd maybe do the same bet regardless of his alignment (making the bet null, not scummy). That said, I'm willing to acknowledge the calculated argument is reasonable. I don't find it likely, however, and I'm going to explain why. This was the appropriate time to do so.

1. Moving the goalposts. Not a single point about my argument stated you should not have commented on Lane.
2. Being impulsive isn’t really relevant given the revelation of Pre-Game talk where scum had the change to coordinate their actions. In which case Lane’s partner

could certainly have gotten him on-board with the plan. So your post reads to me as looking for a reason to clear Lane and I think the reason you used was spurious as stated in the first response.

Given your poor arguments in 107, it stands to reason that you'll now comb back over reasonable questions in an attempt to frame them in a negative light.

And more discrediting language. And language that specified implies I'm scum looking to frame innocent posting. Yet no movement to actually vote me. Or anyone since Red specifically avoided voting in his first post.

Happy with my vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 5pm EDT til Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Raise to 100

So now that we have seen the showdown and MM had an absolute No-Brainer hand I’m very curious why the wagon is still sitting on there. Frankly the reasons seem to be stretching pretty hard – the only way you can conclude that MM is scum from the way the hand played out is if he is scum with Lane and they pre-game decided to consolidate. But I wager that most people on the MM wagon don’t reason that they are scum together.

I also think Lane’s “Why were you mistaken on that costs of items in the shop” point as a scum-tell is highly suspect given he completely didn’t comprehend the nature of the game with no draws and jokers as explicitly stated in the rules.

I think RC is certainly a good place to be voting. Read back through his posts surrounding Lane and notice his posts where positions that Lane isn’t scum but refuses to take a stance that Lane is anything but Null. Also the following needs to come from RedCoyote ASAP –

I have not characterized my lane read as a townread. I do not think the evidence is there to call him a scumread, however.

Should he have a bad hand, I will reassess at that time.

So Lane had a stupidly bad hand. I want to see your full thought process now that we see that is indeed a fact.

I'm already voting, actually. Did you see the Vote Count?

Yeah, I had forgotten you hopped on MM. Why did you just happen to hop on the biggest wagon again?

Sorry, but I didn't join a poker-themed game to get one crappy hand and then have to wait forever for the next deal.

This reaction seems a little odd to me given Kappy was set to auto-fold in under 7 hours.

No reason to change before the showdown. The hands might tell us something.

So what exactly did the hands show you then?

Does anyone here know what Persivul's scumgame looks like?

Not personally. But I’d very much like to know given the gamestate.

MoI, do you think lane's alignment is related to his apparent poker knowledge? (You seemed to in 107.) Do you understand why RC says your arguments are poor in 107?

On Lane’s alignment isn’t related to his poker ability but to his possible motivations for going All-In. Queen high isn’t even remotely good for 5 card Draw without Jokers much less with them. So I’m still undecided if he just was playing that stupidly (nothing personal Lane … but that play was stupid if you are Town which you seem to understand) or if he was scum in a gambit and his response was a reaction coming from Scum instinctively defending his own play.

On RC – not really given the game-state (early game where getting scum-hunting moving calls for poking and prodding).

[MagnaofIllusion]

If he was simply mistaken on the prices, ok. But how does he come up with 1000?

I buy it because I made the same mistake - albeit not directly in thread. At one point after I initially read the rules I thought it was odd that Governor and Vengeful were exactly twice the starting amount. I went back to double check and found out I was wrong. SO i don't see it as some smoking gun.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did you read your role PM?

Yup.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mine said that the initial rules had changed so be sure to read up before confirming.

Your point?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, why did you think it was 1000?

I don't remember specifically. Frankly I didn't pay a huge attention to the shop aspect given it doesn't come into play until Night 1. I was more interested in the actual mechanics. You know ... things like Jokers.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA …

Personally if I was evaluating whether to lynch between Lane and MM as possible partners then I absolutely would lynch Lane first. 244 doesn’t make a bit of sense. It reads as Lane trying incredibly hard to fit a narrative to his conclusions. There is no universe where scum looking to dump chips to a partner decide to have the best hand go all-in first and get called by the bad hand. Overall the whole content of that post makes no sense other than someone straining to create a story that supports what has happened and paints him as Town.

Add in his insistence that him forgetting about the Jokers and implications of 11 players with 5 cards each isn’t scum motivated but his stance that MM’s forgetting exact details about Store Prices is scum motivated and I don’t see very honest scum-hunting coming from his slot.

265 is a very suspect jump onto the top wagon.

@SS

– can you explain why looking through you ISO I see exactly what Infinity called out RC for – posts that look like just being made for the sake of it as opposed to actual scum-hunting? Who are your scum reads and why are you not voting one of them?

I don't understand how one may scumhunt without "generating content" (defined by me as engaging people, asking questions, and answering questions).

This response is, I think, scummy. He’s arguing against a stance Inifity didn’t take. Infinity didn’t say you could scum-hunt without generating content. He said you could generate content without scum-hunting. As in – putting down lots of words in the thread that don’t actually look to take stance.

Look at his song and dance surrounding his lack of Lane read. He said that there was no reason to suspect Lane was scum but was quick to correct that it wasn’t a Lane Town read at that point only a Null read. And all the words he’s sent my way have by his own admission not been oriented at someone he is actually scum-reading. So he’s filling the thread with lots of words but they don’t actually represent scum-hunting.

Also – look at the tone of his posts made to / at me. He uses a ton of language meant to suggest I’m incompetent and not worth listening to. It is a pretty classic scum motivated play.

Oh, and your bit about MoI. I think it's certainly anti-town. I don't know if it would be scum-motivated. I think it's difficult to say his scumhunting is honest when he "forgets" that I'm voting (despite that fact that a big part of his push was over the fact that I wasn't voting... and there was an official VC posted almost immediately before he made that contention). Additonally, I think it's irresponsible to "not pay attention" to the shop. Given that someone just won a poker hand, I went back and checked the shop again. Other players have asked MM about the shop. It just strikes me as naturally townie to be inquisitive about it.

Is it scummy? Maybe not. I think you've got a fair point.

Still, I want to draw attention to it as I have not made these same mistakes.

And this is a scum response.

1. A big part of my push was that you were not voting? Lie. Read 107 where I first identify his play as scum oriented – not a single mention of not voting there. Sane with 109. And in 124 it was a small point regarding his attempts to discredit while not voting me. He’s using a logical fallacy to try to suggest my read on him is warranted by picking out a single element (that I forgot that he was voting MM) and attacking it while ignoring the fact that the single point is a side-note to the full extent of my read on him which involves scum motivated posting and discrediting.

2. The Shop analysis is exactly what I would expect from scum looking for another manner to undermine reads on me. He’s latched on to the fact that I said I made the same mistake as MM. Yet the one element I specifically left out of my post is the time-frame that mistake happened.

It was Pre-Game. I read the rules the first time the thread was posted. When I read my role PM I got to thinking about ability pricing and the thought about how a single double-up could catapult players into the top Shop tier. So when re-reading the rules before the thread opened I discovered my recollection was incorrect and that the top tier was $1250.

Yet RC is trying to float that I haven’t been “paying attention” when my statement took place Pre-Game and not when the game was actually happening is scum looking for discrediting materials. Especially since he refuses to actually call me scum.

3. Look at the bolded – do you think coming from Town? I certainly don’t. Looks very LAMIST to me – “Look I don’t make mistakes look how Townie I am!!!”

No. Last time I saw you lurk like this you were scum.

Link to said game.

@MoI: Ref: 203

Why do you think MM is less likely to be scum here given the hand? He would have a no-brainer regardless of his alignment? You also said that a strong hand by MM would make it more likely that lane and MM are a team. Why did you (seemingly) abandon this line of thinking?

Also, I think you underrepresented the arguments against MM, so it looks weaker than it is. Did you do that on purpose? What is your read on MM?

I’ve abandoned that line of thinking because the heat MM isn’t proportionate to what I would expect from Scum. You yourself say that his call was a No-Brainer regardless of alignment. Yet I see people bending over backwards looking for reasons (most of which I think are very much stretching past the point of reasonableness) to continue to pressure him while Lane isn’t drawing any heat at all.

Given that the main context of suspicion on MM began with the “Lane was chip-dumping to partner MM” supposition it” I see the continued wagon that has followed to be on a Town player given that now Lane is drawing Town reads from players.

What exactly is your case on MM Quib? Can you lay it out for me in one spot because you hop on looks pretty sketchy in my mind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Probably because I've been gathering thoughts and not sharing many of them. Ftr I think posting for the sake of it (as long as one is actually hunting scum) is actually a minor towntell, and I can't imagine that you think I haven't been scumhunting.
My top scumreads are you and FA_Q2. I haven't voted yet because I don't have a strong read on any of the leading wagons (MM, RC, Persivul)... my strongest is a mild townlean on RC.

I have concerns given that it took you this long to actually commit to a scum-read on players. Reading through your ISO looks very much like planting the seeds on many players to later be used as as scum reading as necessary which is scum-oriented play.

Why are you required to vote a top wagon? That's an absurd notion to float I have trouble understanding that notion as coming from a Town perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok magna, why don't you tell me how scum would make a money dumping plan? Make it fit what has happened, but make it make sense as me being scum.

It’s already been assessed – one scum would go all-in and another who due to Pre-Game talk the scum knew had a strong hand would call.

It makes sense with you as scum as your hand was so startlingly bad there was no reason for you to go all-in as you did. And MM’s hand was certainly a winner given the Poker format so he makes a logical partner. Why you are going on about your partner not calling in 327 I haven’t a clue – MM makes logical sense as a partner under this scenario.

Bam. Pretty damn easy to do given we already did it early on.

And what are you townreading the mm. Cause some people town read me? Your case, as far as I thought, was based on us being partners.

I'm not sure I follow your scum reading of me now.

I said that if I was going to lynch between the two of you to determine if you are possible scum partners I would vote you first. But given I think MM is Town for the general quality of the wagon on him I’m open the possibility that you are just bad Town.

but I should forewarn you that MoI likes to scumread me in virtually every game we play together regardless of our individual alignments.

So this is the sort of statement that bears following up on – we haven’t played a game together in over 4 years. So I dug through my completed game archives to see games we hand in common and how you were treated in them.

The Switchboard

( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=22959 ) – Both of us were Town.

Read through the ISOs of us (should not take long, RC died N1) but it is a strike against this premise. We actually both voted to lynch AngryPigeon and I pushed IAI as my other focus. Never voted Red.

Micro 57

– Stratego Mafia (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=23654) – RC Town, MoI Mafia

Another strike against this theory – we spent all of Day 1 basically joined at the hips on wagons on players and I never once pushed any suspicion against Red. We killed him N1.

Return to Boring Town

( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=22676 ) – RC Town, MoI Mafia

This game really can’t be relevant as RedCoyote replaced in when I was at L-1 and hammered me shortly after. So no interactions to mine.

Cyclical Experiments 2 Mafia

(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=19396 ) – MoI Town, RC ???

This game was eaten in the great Tiger attack of 2011. I know I was Town but don’t remember RC’s alignment. This is the only game where I do actively push on RC and I was Town.

So I went through three full pages of my Topics archive to find these four examples, one of which isn’t valid and two of which directly contradict your statement. In fact the only game I did push on you I was Town. So I don't see how, even with the limited number of games, you think this statement is correct.

Why would you lie about something that was so easy for me to check and post information about?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want to see someone raise just to make Pers's blood pressure sky-rocket ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here he basically tells us that he tried to do something good for town by calling, through breaking scum's plan. The word "to" is the important bit, if he said "I called and I broke that" for example, it would be a different thing. His response wasn't very convincing, giving all sorts of reasons why he called, and saying that I/we are reading too much into it. It just seems to me he tried to look like a white knight fighting for the good of town.

This is in my opinion you stretching to classify something as scummy. The whole notion of “to” being a huge difference maker between scum and Town motivation is pretty poorly thought out given that written English can convey the same notion in many different ways. I’d classify the whole point as nitpicking looking for reasons as opposed to actually looking for scum intent.

Since the last bit of your post is basically a LAMIST attack – what do you think of Red Coyote’s similar “I don’t make mistakes so you should see me as Town” posting?

Admitting to try and look town because of pressure. Admitting it doesn't really make it better in my opinion.

Also very weak as Town also try to look Town also. You are taking something that is at worst a Null statement and only prescribing scum intent to it. Note that I commented on his initial post and this is his response which I thought was pretty reasonable Town.

In the first quote he tells people to keep in mind that he might be playing bad, because it is only his second game etc. So, he is pre-emptively defending himself with the newbie/being bad card. Then in the second quote he says that he wouldn't be so bad and transparent as scum. I think he's using both sides of the argument here. Below I have added the response to my poking:

Bad and scummy are not synonymous. Frankly I can point to at least one other player in this thread whose shtick is to play purposefully bad for whatever reason. That doesn’t mean they are always scum. Which is unfortunate because I want to lynch said player every time for being a worthless pile of junk. As to your “he’s wanting both sides of the coin” – meh … I don’t find that compelling. If he was trying for Newbie shield while simultaneously attacking someone else for trying to claim Newbie status I would find that suspect. This … not so much.

So if these are the tentpoles of your case I can’t say that I find it vote-worthy.

If you think MM is scum who is his partner? Is Lane also scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off, I don't care if it's 4 years or 40. The only reason to even throw that comment in there is to attempt some poor logical fallacy implying that if a game happened X number of days/weeks/months/years ago it should be invalidated.

No it isn’t. The fact is I remember you as being a player here on MS but before going through our common games I didn’t remember one bit about your play. Sorry if that hurts but the only thing memorable about you was your username.

But speaking of someone looking to put a negative spin on every post someone makes … see this post by Red Coyote as an example.

Second, if you insist on getting technical, how about you don't just decide to omit the games that don't suit your agenda?

Who isn’t reading now? I SPECIFICALLY mentioned I went through 3 pages of my topics looking for games we might have in common. Many of my games we didn’t but I needed to check them. This took me over one hour. Are you suggesting it isn’t reasonable for me to find 4 games after an hour of searching and conclude your point wasn’t valid?

And the only person with an agenda on this point is you – specifically trying to sell that I would attack you regardless which absolutely isn’t true.

So, I'll grant you it's not quite as skewed as I originally presented it (I recall it being 1-1-4 rather than 2-1-4), but, still, the majority of our games consisted of you coming after me, 3 of the 4 times in error. This game appears to follow that pattern if you are town.

See now you are moving the goalposts. Your initial point was as follows –

If enough people are sadistic enough to request that I do, then I suppose we'll carry on the charade, but I should forewarn you that MoI likes to scumread me in virtually every game

we play together regardless of our individual alignments

.

The bolded is important as it doesn reflect reality. Using the list of you gave we have the following situation.

MoI Scum – RC Town – two games, one of which isn’t relevant and one in which not only did I not attack you in the least we more or less worked together to mislynch Town.

MoI Town – RC Scum – one game where I properly attacked you as scum.

MoI Town – RC Town – four games. Three of which I attacked you and one of which I didn’t.

So your statement (which I feel was yet another attempt to discredit my feelings on your slot) was that I attack you regardless of alignment. Small sample size of scum games shows me never attacking you. Town games I correctly read you 2 of 5 times and incorrectly read you 3 of 5 times. That’s hardly the poor situation you are presenting.

Frankly the situation you brought up shows that I’m more likely to attack you as Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Holy shit, you spent an hour just because someone said

you always scum read me

?

If it takes an hour to run down enough games to give me a conclusion that I can take back to the thread ... yes.

Why the pointless post?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't like how MoI is using a meta argument to try to prove he's town and not having paranoia that he might be wrong on rc again, but ehh his other posts have been so town

Frankly I don't like how a number of your post straddle both sides of the fence in a manner that suggests you'll go with whichever way is most expedient. Seriously this post and 325 recently are both "Meh this person could be Town could be scum". Which goes without saying.

The point of the meta argument is that if Red Coyote was being honest his assessment of my play should say I'm probably Town. But that's not the conclusion he reaches.

Not to mention the fact that his initial post was deliberately misleading. What do you think of that specifically Infinity?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think the wording he used ("no matter our alignments") was misleading, but his point was that you arguing for him being scum was normal even if he was town. So the point was meant to be in favor of him being town as opposed to you being scum, and I think he has a point.

What do you make of the fact that you thought he was scum in those 3 games and he ended up being town? Does that make you at all worried that you're wrong again?

Um whut? That’s a not a point for him being Town.

I’ll state again – I was 1 of 1 (100%, small sample size aside) in reading him as scum when he was. I was 1 of 4 (25%) reading him as Town when he was. But you are just tossing aside the fact I did read him as scum successfully and saying “Whelp, he read him wrong when RC was Town often enough that RC must be Town” which is frankly a stupid conclusion.

Is it possible I’m wrong? Of course. Mafia is not an exact science. How many games have you been wrong about players? Does that mean you should not pursue them in the future if you think they are scum?

Also – given your strong Town read on MM what do you think of the players on his wagon as it stands now? You think Lane is Town. For reference -

MM(4): lane, Red Coyote, BBT, Qubixes

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Fire Assassin

He's posting all over site but not here thus playing to his scum meta.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can't find another scum game for him.

If you can't find a scum game in here you are not looking very hard -

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to give myself a couple of hours to decide whether to replace out. The only reason I’m not doing it in this post is because Pers already jumped ship and I don’t want to potentially kill the Mod’s game with double replacments. That’s not really fair to him.

416 is the kind of toxic garbage I try to avoid by dodging players who spew it during the sign-up process. Lane now goes on that list of players to completely avoid in the future.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - please replace me. Sorry - I don't have any interest in dealing with Lane and post like the below indicate it isn't going to get any better.

Your post was the toxic garbage magna. Like I said. You couldn't just say it was an alt... You had to go your pretentious route and say someone isn't looking very hard in a place they wouldn't know to look. That's just being a jerk

It was a sarcastic joke you self-righteous jack-ass. If you were not too busy getting in the way I might have gotten a proper read on Fire.

--

UNVOTE: Fire Assassin

Final reads as I depart

–

Fire Assassin – I am on the fence about. Lurking isn’t a scum meta for him. The entire point of the post was to see how he would react to being called out in that manner. Lane and Pers managed to make sure that the reaction was muddled. His “Oh I am machine gunning this is a different playstyle” leaves me cold. Fire usually has little problem being called scum as Town ( see post 1033 in this thread - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66176) as an example ) but I can could see his frustration at being metaed as an Alt (which is stupid, frankly) as coming from Town.

BBT is Null – he usually pulls this sort of stupid “Imma lurk” Day 1 as Town. I’ve never seen him as scum so I can’t exactly say I can Town read given the behavior is easy to replicate if he is scum.

MM is Town – he’s gotten too much pressure too easily from too many players in an 11 player game. Scum are very unlikely to bus given it is entirely reasonable we only have two Mafia / Werewolves / whatever.

Red Coyote is maybe Town – I don’t like his early play (which was soft and focused on a soft target) but from our back and forth I can see you truly believes the point he is making no matter how badly he misuses statistics.

Pers is probably Town.

My bets right now for scum lie within Something Smart, Infinity, and Quib.

Quib is more or less only focused on MM and interacting with players solely based on MM. That speaks to scum who are having a somewhat difficult time authentically interacting with Town players.

Something Smart ISO looks to me like someone not interest in finding scum but interested in appearing as he is doing so. 280 is a prime example – he puts down lots of words but does not draw any specific conclusions. The wording of 393 specifically “his flip would provide more information than FA’s” is the kind of nebulous posts I expect from scum.

Infinity is a mostly gut read. While I agree with some of his stances (MM as Town) something in his posting gives me the feel that on issues where there may be gray areas he want to have it both ways (example my case on RC was bad but RC could still be scum) which reserves him an easy springboard in moving whichever way best suits his agenda in the future.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well sorry I had to replace out for Lane's toxic presence Alchemist. I think it is the first time I've actively replaced out of a game and that makes me sad.

Good game scum. The fact that both of you were in my "Pool of 3" when I left really makes the replace out sting even more.