Mini Normal 1839 - Dead/Spectator PT

[callforjudgement]

Hi everyone!

I guess there isn't much to comment on yet, given that we're in confirmations…

[callforjudgement]

I know which roles exist, but not who has which role.

That's nearly always enough to solve a Closed game well before the players can. The reason's this: suppose scum are forced to claim. Either they claim a role that is in the setup and likely get counterclaimed, or they claim a role that isn't in the setup and I know they're almost certainly scum because they fakeclaimed. For a setup reviewer, pretty much the only mystery is due to unclaimed players (everyone at the start), and scum who fakeclaim VT.

[callforjudgement]

#35 looks to me like an attempt to do something controversial in order to bring the game out of RVS as soon as possible. I wonder if it'll work; it doesn't seem to be working as well as expected yet.

[callforjudgement]

Sadly, a bunch of replacements early in a 13p is fairly common. It's just one of those things you have to live with as a moderator.

[callforjudgement]

Err, inspectorscout, that looks a lot like you're discussing an ongoing game outside its threads. You can't do that even if you're the mod.

Given the circumstances (and the fact that it's hard to see how what you said could bias the game), it's probably best if neither me nor Foxbird replaces into your game and we leave things at that (possibly with the post scrubbed).

@Foxbird: I agree that replacing out is typically null. (Repeated prod-dodges without replacing out, on the other hand, are probably a mild scumtell. Repeated prod-dodges followed by suddenly becoming active at a moment when it's clear your input is strategically important is a fairly strong scumtell.)

[callforjudgement]

I normally handle this sort of situation by waiting until the prod timer would normally have expired, and then reviewing the situation then. If the end of the V/LA is still indefinite at that point, or if it seems too far out, I replace for an overly long V/LA. (That said, I have slower prod timers than most people, so perhaps "waiting 72 hours from the last post" would be a better guideline.)

[callforjudgement]

Town are normally happy. Scum are normally annoyed. It's not an uncommon way to resolve the situation.

Three simultaneous V/LAs

is

pretty rare, though, except for US holidays (which often cause a 24 hour deadline extension and suspension of prod timers, because so many players are American that you can expect very low activity on those days).

[callforjudgement]

Typically speaking you should deny an extension unless it's clear that one is warranted. Otherwise players will coast, then demand extensions rather than actually getting into gear.

"I replaced in near deadline and need time to read up" is a common and reasonable reason to grant an extension.

[callforjudgement]

From a theory perspective, looking only at the events in the game (and ignoring my knowledge of the setup), it certainly seems more likely that the scum shot at a PR claim who got saved by a Bodyguard, than it does that the scum happened to hit a Bodyguard randomly (especially as it was night 1, so scum can't have had any information from rolecop-like roles yet).

Spoiler: Comments based on knowledge of the roles that exist in the game

If you take the list of roles that exist in the game into account, the events of the night raise more questions than answers and are somewhat confusing. It wouldn't surprise me if things didn't go the way that either faction was expecting. It also seems considerably more likely that the kill was just random. Additionally, I can also believe that Fire Assassin was fakeclaiming, either as scum or as town. (For some reason, attempting to draw the kill didn't cross my mind. If that was what he was doing, it may have failed, or it may have worked a little too well.)

[callforjudgement]

It's up to you.

[callforjudgement]

Err, Fire Assassin (for when you see this), a Jailkeeper doesn't block the target of their action from being neighbourized by someone else. You're thinking of Alien, Kidnapper, etc..

[callforjudgement]

Ugh, I just realised a mistake I made in the review (I'd forgotten to account for the Bodyguard getting shot directly early in the game; this is something I'm normally aware of, it just slipped my mind for some reason in this one). This setup's therefore a little more scumsided than I thought it was. That said, it's probably still in the acceptable range; I

did

account for the Bodyguard failing to save people due to aiming incorrectly, and this is a very similar situation balance-wise (in addition to being less likely).

[callforjudgement]

In an emergency, it's not entirely unknown for a VT to replace back in to a game they died in, but it's frowned upon (partly because it makes ISOing a pain – although you can fix that with an alt – but mostly because there's a conflict of interest if they draw scum). Players with power roles, or who were scum, can't replace back in because they had additional information. Players who have seen the dead thread have additional information too.

[callforjudgement]

Less than 15 minutes to deadline, and still no hammer? Wow, it's like a newbie game.

[callforjudgement]

(For the record, there's at least one recorded case of a newbie game failing to hammer by deadline

in lylo

. I forget which, now; it was mentioned in one of the statistics threads.)

[callforjudgement]

Looks like it got worse. Deadline no-lynch, you don't see those too often in this queue.

(Nowadays the site has a feature that can be set up to autolock the thread at deadline, which is useful to avoid arguments as to whether votes after the deadline count, but it's not in use for this game according to the rules. The rules say "If there is no majority vote at deadline, there will be no lynch" and "Talking after deadline and/or lynch is allowed, up until the thread is locked.", so I guess we're in twilight now.)

[callforjudgement]

Spoiler: Based on knowledge of which roles exist in the game

Well, I can only see one way for that to happen, so I guess no lynch was the right option after all? I suspect that there's going to be rather more debate than you're expecting.

[callforjudgement]

Spoiler: Reply to Foxbird

Theoretically yes, but they're dead, so they aren't able to do anything with them. Sometimes a mod will post the results in the dead thread.

If they're targeted for a kill but survive it, then they definitely get their results. Kills don't block actions.

[callforjudgement]

If night actions stay as they are now, tomorrow is gonna go

really

quickly.

Oh, I think I see what you mean now. I hadn't considered the possibility of a counterclaim.

You haven't built up much of a reputation as a mod yet, so the players won't know for certain that you aren't the sort of mod who puts duplicate roles into the game. That said, when you have a player who was looking really scummy the day before counterclaimed by a player flipping town, they're going to have problems talking their way out of that situation (especially as their buddies are likely to bus them).

[callforjudgement]

For what it's worth, if I were playing, I may well have deadline lynched you even if I thought you were town. Letting the day go to no lynch is typically really bad because you aren't any better off the next morning, but you're a mislynch down. (This is different if there's reason to think the game is or might go to evens.)

[callforjudgement]

If you analyse the theory behind bussing, you discover that it's

usually

the wrong option but it's correct to do it occasionally. (This shows in my play, too; I've bussed my entire scumteam on occasion but the majority of games where I'm scum, I hold a townread on my scumbuddies.)
However, many players seem to assume that it's going to happen every game (which should just make you more inclined to not bus until the meta is more normalized).

[callforjudgement]

Yes, I was agreeing with you and trying to add some more context.

I'd add the caveat that if there are theory reasons to expect at least one scum to be inevitably caught, it's normally correct to work out who's the most expendable and bus them. This is rare in Normals but can happen in role madness.

[callforjudgement]

Well, OMGUS voting is correct in lylo situations (and also in mylo if you can't persuade them to change their mind). If you're town, and a townie is voting for you, you've lost, so your only hope is to hope that the players voting for you are scum.

[callforjudgement]

It's mostly one of the things that mods just don't hope happen (and the players typically get bored of it before the mod does).

We could really do with having some sort of site-wide rule for handling the situation, as at the moment it normally depends on players feeling like doing it is against the spirit of the game, which arguably conflicts with the play-to-win rule.

[callforjudgement]

Why is bji lagging it, he has hammer lol.

He doesn't. It's 3 to lynch and karnos isn't voting.

No lynch would actually be smart play here (and karnos can force it with a single vote, as he's unlikely to be lynched in response; he might have to hold the day out to deadline though). That said, karnos would almost certainly be the nightkill target.

How many power roles are left, if any? I've lost track.