Team Mafia 2018: Magical Stories ~Game Over~

[Fenchurch]

Hi game!

Wow, 6 pages before breakfast. I support the wagon on jjh, based on his play and his given reads so far; if we had to lynch someone right now he would be my bet. I don't think it’s impossible he’s town, but if the base chance of someone being scum is 20%, I would put him at 25%.

Not gonna vote since L-2 with a bunch of players not yet checked in yet is awkward.

It took me 40 minutes to read this and now I have to go to work so all you get besides this is my patchy notes I made as I went along.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

notes:

Davesaz
claimed miller and hated

Espeon
seems town, I like the question to boon in #55

SleepyKrew
seems town, Marquis is invested too, and I like the observation on jjh in #60

Zach
don’t like the Boon vote in #63. ignores all other content in the game?

jjh
don’t like the reads list in #66 - surprised he so readily townreads most of the players voting him? Is that likely, if he’s town? Feel like it needs to be backed up by something.

hiplop
nothing here. vote on jjh is understandable, but also backed by nothing that makes him town. trying to switch to boon in #102 is super weird.

hebichan
missed her earlier posts, not sure why Sleepy and hiplop puts her as townie

Boon
prefers scum

[Fenchurch]

No, I’m just realistic aboout odds. 5% increase on base is plenty enough to make someone my top scum read and best lynch candidate.

[Fenchurch]

Boon

- for my part, I don’t buy the claim that your team would not have let you have a scum PM. You also said that most of your team are fairly new players. I find it unlikely, if you prefer playing scum

and

are the most experienced player, that they would insist on taking scum themselves rather than to let you have it - surely they’d at least let you make the call.

Slight scumread on Boon because I think that he may be lying about this.

~~~~

jjh

- I’m not the first to ask, please can you explain where your reads in #66 came from. What about Zach made him town? You said “his votes and his interactions”… I’ve read back through the 4 posts Zach had made at that point and I just don’t see it.

What made Espeon and Boon stronger townreads at that point than Zach and Sleepy? What was scummy about hebi’s post? Are those still your reads?

VOTE: jjh

[Fenchurch]

No Boon. Just, no.

I’m only relaxed when I play scum, and don’t have to worry about scum hunting. I’m much better at hunting for mistakes in town’s people’s plays and then pushing them off as scum.

I’ve been told I come off as incredibly genuine when I’m scum.

I state very often that i am a late game town powerhouse, and I personally feel I am a stronger townie than scum player,

I get that you're full of yourself.

Your second explanation about the role PM distribution is more believable than the first.

The fact that you then choose to vote JJH over me is laughable.

I pointed out something suspicious. I didn't think it was as suspicious as jjh's play to date. What kind of ridiculous comment is this.

[Fenchurch]

I understand why you’d want to keep the option of lynching me open right now with the said players I brought up creepin’.

And yet you don't seem to understand that I was pointing out something I found suspicious because I am town. You can apparently

only

see a scum motivation for it. Which

is

ridiculous.

[Fenchurch]

But what you posted was factually incorrect, so i don’t see it as something you would be doing as town.

It was factually incorrect to think, based on the information I had, that it was unlikely your team would have refused to let you play scum?

I also reevaluate my reads when I have more information.

I'm defensive because I think your reasoning for voting me is junk and I'm not going to wait around to point it out.

[Fenchurch]

Sure, you re-evaluated, but why couldn’t that just be scum changing paths when they realized I had a good explanation.

Maybe it could be, but it's not, and your insistence that it is is rubbish. I said I didn't think what you original stated made sense or was believable. You gave more information which made it more believable. I changed my stance.

I feel you should understand why it came across as scummy

You ask me this, I ask you the same thing. Can you not see how my original suspicion of you was reasonable?

Do you not think it would be weird for a team of newbies to say to an experienced player 'you can't be scum because everyone will think you're scum'? Especially when you profess to be so believable and 'genuine' as scum - surely, you might as well just take the scum role PM, no one will know either way until you're dead, and on the one hand, even if you don't take, people will expect that you would have anyway, on the other hand, if you play scum so well then you won't get lynched anyway?

Your second explanation gave some extra details, your team mates aren't so inexperienced, you would apparently still enjoy playing scum vicariously. But I didn't have that information to begin with. Why can't you see that my accusation was justified?

[Fenchurch]

I'm sure Boon is gonna go crazy for this, but I thought jjh's recent explanation of his initial reads list was good and I feel less sure on him being scum now too. Also he said he prefers to play town, and I just don't think this kind of thing counts for nothing in Team Mafia.

hebi

- have you played with sheep before? Or has anyone? I agree that their posts are pretty empty of content, but I did a quick meta check and that seems to be pretty normal for them. I've currently got them down as a player that is unreadable and that I will have to work around. What makes you sure on them being scum?

[Fenchurch]

The defense of jjh seemed opportunistic from the timing and despite relying on his team, he hasn't actually given any other reads besides the one that could give him cred.

Like sure, relying on your team seems weak, but relying on your team to give a single read seems worse.

See I agree with all this, and yet...

sheep's iso, Open 705

Comparing the posts there to here, I just don't see any meaningful difference.

[Fenchurch]

@fenchurch if someone is that useless as town, why wouldn't they play the same way as scum?

Probably would, but that means we're just lynching them based on nothing.

Do you think his team could be telling him only useful for a scum agenda player? I am mostly concerned his team only gave feedback on one person if they know he's sort of a lump of a player.

I read back through sheep's posts in this game. Their team mates do give thoughts on multiple players: Espe, Jjh, Dave, Boon and Zach as town, momo as scum. No, there's not a lot to back these reads up, and I don't put much stock in them.

What suggests that the info the team mates have given is more relevant for a scum player?

[Fenchurch]

Probably would, but that means we're just lynching them based on nothing.

Just to add, this isn't me completely giving up on reading sheep and/or lynching sheep, but I'd quite like to get to a place where I'm lynching someone based on having a good feeling that they're gonna flip scum, as opposed to just random chance.

[Fenchurch]

It so means we're leaving them alive for no reason.

A lump is a lump is a lump.

I don't know. Sometimes players become readable given context. Sometimes they can be read through connections or PoE.

Thor and Fro66er have yet to even post. I'm not in a place where I'm gonna do basically a policy lynch.

And by the way, I'm not trying to poke holes though. I do want to know your reasoning, whatever it is..

[Fenchurch]

Okay, so current thought on jjh atm Fen?

The reasons he gave in #245 seemed fair; although there wasn't a lot to go by, he did have an explanation for townreading players and believing their their actions at that point were pro-town, and scumreading you because you didn't vote. And I did skimmed one of his previous games, which made me feel better; and as I mentioned, his preferring town also does.

It'd be good if he would comment a bit more on the last 5 pages, besides repeatedly asking for hiplop to talk to Cheetory (although hiplop should also do that).

he's scummy

Okay but why? Your last post was essentially 'well he's probably the same as town or scum'

[Fenchurch]

What suggests that the info the team mates have given is more relevant for a scum player?

Sleepy can you answer this? Or anything else that shows that sheep is scummier here than in their previous games?

[Fenchurch]

hebi had said she thought his team mates were giving him information ‘only useful for a scum olayer’. I dont see it, so that’s what I was asking about.

Meta is relevant if the reasons you think a player is scummy are things that they always do.

[Fenchurch]

sheep

- have you played as scum before? Can you post an example? Which alignment do you prefer? What do you think you do differently as town and scum? Please answer hypothetically if the answer to the first question is no.

[Fenchurch]

I'm behind a Zach lynch. Play overall seems scummy, but in particular his explanation of unvoting hiplop because of him acting more town... but not from anything Zach actually saw, just an assumption from the fact that other people had unvoted.

It's lazy play, but in particular I think it's the kind of lazy play more likely to come from scum than town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zach

~~~~~

dave

: So far you've placed a single vote and it's on Katsuki. I'm finding Katsuki's lack of input equally annoying, but apparently it is something he's likely to do as town. Aside from your vote, your posts seem fairly relevant, so... is Katsuki really your strongest scumread? If not, who?

~~~~~

Right now, scum doesn't want scum to be lynched. They are looking for an alternative. I presented kat. Town, especially one as experienced as you, should never be voting kat. Kat is anti-town, not scum. This is an easy lynch that only scum would go for. Not anyone worth their salt as town.

SCUM READING DAVE

pedit: and jj does it too....could see them together

momo

- when you proposed Katsuki as an alternative lynch for scum to hop onto... an alternative to who, exactly? Whose lynch do you think dave-scum is trying to avoid?

[Fenchurch]

Oh I forgot a couple of things.

The sheep defense this page feels legit or white knighty

meaning "Sheep is either legitimately defending jjh927 or he is scum defending town!jjh927 for towncred", right? And that's the justification for voting me, which is counterintuitive to both scenarios. The vote fails to add pressure or lulz, and Thor is then absent and so does not follow up on either pressure or lulz. Pressure or lulz could be obtained under those circumstances by getting on the at-the-time equally sized sheep wagon.

???

I read this as, the defence against a sheep lynch is either correct (and therefore sheep is town) or white-knighty (and therefore the white-knighters are scum... and sheep is town). Therefore, if he wants to join one of the two leading wagons, jjh is his best vote.

@Fenchurch: Your team gets two scum PMs out of five, are you asking firmly for one alignment or the other?

I might not have firmly asked for it, because I'm polite and I know that playing scum is sometimes necessary, but I'd probably have been offered a town role anyway because my team mates know me. I prefer to be town; in the last Team Mafia, 2 of our 5 tokens were on me getting a town role.

[Fenchurch]

Thor, are you here?

What are your thoughts.

[Fenchurch]

I don't know what to think of your play momo.

On the one hand, my gut feel on the 'gambit' thing was that it seemed more likely to come from a town place then a scum place. On the other hand, you're so inconsistent in what you say, e.g:

momo, #465: "Town, especially one as experienced as you, should never be voting kat. Kat is anti-town, not scum. This is an easy lynch that only scum would go for. Not anyone worth their salt as town."
momo, #610: "kat could be scum...in fact, I can see someone playing anti-town as scum"

I feel bad for not having much in the way of strong reads yet for a 25-page game... but then, it's a 25-page game with a lot of spam posts. I read Zach in a couple of his previous games; still happy with his lynch.

[Fenchurch]

...Also Based RC-sama says u guys are dummies if you lynch me because I'm the last person on the team that he would want having a scum slot

Why is that?

[Fenchurch]

I'm here, though I find the pace and post quality of the game pretty akin to a Large - and thus I loathe it.
I'd help lynch jhh, Katsuki, or Dave.
I think Momo is town.

I have no other reads of worth.

It's not the game I was hoping for either, but you work with what you get. It seems like you're keeping up to speed with the game; I'd like it if you posted more, too. (Please don't replace out.)

Fenchurch what games of mine did you read
I sold my soul like 40 minutes ago so like I guarantee nothing you saw was indicative unfortunately

Voltron Mafia (town) and Hell is 56k (scum). And I wasn't expecting to get a rock-solid meta read on you or anything, but wanted to get a feel for your play overall. For the record, it left me feeling no better or worse about my vote on you.

Fenchurch knows how to write posts yes, that doesn't make her town
Her vote on me sucked so...?

Zach, in your words... why am I voting you? And why does my vote suck?

[Fenchurch]

Something I did notice though, Katyusha previously claimed a rock-solid scumtell on Zach.

jjh

- is she reading this game at all? What is her opinion?

And can you give any more explanation about the Zach-townreads from your other team members? Why do they think he would have defended you in early game if he was scum - and is the read based on anything else besides that?

[Fenchurch]

Jjh - noted, thanks for clarifying.

Zach - okay, but why have I

said

that I’m voting you?

[Fenchurch]

Yes; wish you’d put as much effort into scumhunting as memes.

The reason why I think your unvote was scummy is because you first tried to give a reason for it that might have been legit. It was only when pressed further that it turned out you didn’t actually have any reason, you just invited because other people did. It’s this covering up that I think comes from scum; trying to look like your votes are based on something different to what they are (wagoning instead of acumhunting).

So, why do you think my vote on you makes me scum?

[Fenchurch]

Yikes. I'd like to think scum me would do the moderately intelligent option and at least attempt to convince the townies
Hiplop vote didn't mean a lott tho and he may still be scum

I don't follow the second part of this sentence (the hiplop vote didn't mean a lot but he may still be scum - surely these things don't go together?), but. Why would I expect scum-you to be more intelligent than town-you?

I could make like case type cases on my scumreads, but no one engages me on logic

Please do this. I will engage you.

I didn't cover anything up. I didn't try? If I did you .. it would be covered?

Okay, covered it up is the wrong phrase maybe.

What I see is two things:
a) you unvoted hiplop for "acting more town", even though you didn't actually see him acting town. This says that you don't actually care whether your vote is on scum or not, you just care about who other people are voting. Not caring about whether your vote is on scum or not is a scumtell, in my opinion.
b) when first questioned, you implied your unvote was based on an opinion hiplop's alignment (which makes it look like you're trying to read people), when in fact it was based purely on other player's votes.

That's why it was a scummy action.

[Fenchurch]

As in, what he's saying and what happened are two different things but this doesn't get pointed out, uh, ever. Is this because everyone knows? But you're condoning it?

What is davesaz doing? I remember a Miller claim then I remember getting upset over frog memes. Neither of those things are particulary useful.

No, I don't think momo's accusations make sense, but I'm trying to focus on things that are actually scummy, and as far as I know momo posts like that regardless of alignment. So I'm not going to waste time and threadspace arguing with him when it doesn't matter.

Dave I don't have any read on and will come to, but I can only do so much at once, and I haven't seen anything obviously scummy either.

Why do people townread SleepyKrew? Is it because he has the tone of a graphing calculator? He be lying too it's just that no one cares any more LOL the bar has already been set

I think Sleepy's actions have all made sense and been relevant and felt town, but I'm not discounting him completely because in a game like this it would be easy to get blinded by someone just being competent and sensible. But he's also not a priority for me because there are many more unreadable people still to sort.

What did Sleepy lie about?

[Fenchurch]

am I scum

I want to lynch Fenchurch or you.

Zach - in this post you don't answer the question. You never answer this question. You never say why you scumread Sleepy. You never say why you scumread me. What are your reasons for your reads?

You never answered why RadiantCowbells supposedly wouldn't give you a scumslot either, you just said 'haha he wasn't expecting to be asked about it'. So? Answer the question.

[Fenchurch]

Okay, so current thought on jjh atm Fen?

Still mixed.

The bad:
He hasn't posted any meaningful observations in ages. He's active, but doesn't show any sign of trying to work out who the scum are.
His last two votes were Kats and Thor... both pretty weak choices, as it was due to their lack of posting or lack of content, rather than any actual scumminess. The Thor vote was (as far as I can tell) due to a misunderstanding of what Thor posted, but he hasn't responded to that or moved on.

The good:
It strikes me as town that he seems to expect a lot of people to townread him based on meta. If I was scum, I wouldn't do that, maybe because I think I'm somewhat easy to catch as scum based on meta. Add to that that he claims to much prefer playing town than scum.
I do think it's reasonable for him to be somewhat preoccupied with trying to understand the basis for the persistent wagon on him and to dissuade it's voters, which is the only content he has posted recently.

So... eh. Right now, it's not enough to make me feel he's scum or town. Can you point more to what it is that makes you sure he is? Purely lack of content, or something else?

~~~~~~

No, they are not all still my reads, but I'm not sure where I'd place Boon now because he's gone rather up and down. I'm detecting willful ignorance. Also more people have posted. Some reads are still the same though.

jjh

- would you be able to share your current reads list and reasons? And what did you mean in this post about 'wilful ignorance'?

Extra question: can you/your team give more information on why y'all read Zach as town?

[Fenchurch]

So giga/katyusha thinks Zach is town, you know they have a strong meta tell of Zach scum, and you're still okay with voting Zach?

I dunno. I don't like to rely entirely on someone else's read above my own, especially when I don't know their own alignment, I don't know the reasoning behind it, and I only have one example of her accuracy. But it's something; I'm mulling over.

Zach, why is Fro99er in your lynchpool

Are you expecting a good answer to this considering he has a total of 10 players in his lynch/vig pool?

jjh

- I asked you for reads, post them please.

[Fenchurch]

I asked you for reads, post them please.

Why don't you post your reads

Sure, here are mine since I don't mind giving them, but I feel like I've already been a lot more open about reasons behind my suspicions, and my feelings on a bunch of other players than you have. I asked for yours specifically because you've given so little recently by which to judge you. Why are you so reluctant?

~~~~~~

Townie

Fro9

- the first read I would actually bet on in this game. His comments just feel very genuine and believable and open… reminds me of town-Mina; not in the words, but in the conviction of his own towniness.

Sleepy

- I’m not as certain here, but his observations all seem valid and I feel like he’s pushing the right things in the right places.

Just above null

hebi

- feels town but she’s been a bit quiet, and I was never satisfied by the way she pushed sheep as scum

Espeon

- gutfeel from early game, although he hasn’t done much since.

momo

- I’m being generous, but although I thought the post where he claimed to have caught scum by setting up Katsuki as a fake counter wagon was a silly, it struck me as more likely to have come from a town place more than a scum one. I really don’t feel this one as strongly as Fro9 does though… like the pushing all over the place is just null for me.

Null

dave

- I’m on the fence. I feel like he’s the kind of player I would go for in the past just for not providing much content, but in my experience is not especially likely to flip scum.

gerryoat

- Every now and then I go back to read gerry and I just can’t make headway. The rhyming thing make all his posts feel very unnatural, and they never feel poignant or relevant. He directed something at me a while back which I’ve been meaning to respond to, but the comments he made to me in that post were pretty incorrect. Would appreciate someone pointing out why they find him town, is there something there I’m missing?

sheep

- no conclusions

Katsuki

- I can follow the frong posts but without more original written content it’s not enough for me to get a read on him. I doubt it’s a real PR, but if someone is a princess please hurry up and kiss him so he will post like a person again.

Thor

- I appreciate his feelings about the game, but his posts so far are just not enough to go on

Scummy

hiplop

- My gutfeel on him is scummy, but then again I’m aware that it always is. I don’t have more than that.

jjh

- I was satisfied with his explanation of his bad reads list at the start, since then he’s been active but hasn’t really done anything townie; and he doesn’t seem interested in changing that.

Boon

- Scummy largely because he’s so boistrous and in your face here, and I know he prefers scum. From Team Mafia 2015 I remember him for two things: extremely bad reads, and seeming pretty disengaged from the game. So based on the reads front, I don’t find it particularly scummy that he’s voting me along with Zach. But aside from that, his approach and energy feels very different to my experience of him as town.

Zach

- not sure. I disagree with so much that he says. He accuses me of not really scumhunting, but I don’t think he even attempts to scumhunt himself, which makes him feel inherently like scum to me. And he claims that playing town is hard and that he’s bad at it… to me this also seems like an excuse for not having to try to be fake being town. Yes, the Giga/Katyusha thing maybe should count for something, and maybe the point about the rest is that he approaches the game in a way completely different to me. I find being town easy; I can just post what I’m thinking. I find scum hard; I have to do the same but it’s all fake.

I ought to re-read hiplop, sheep, dave and gerry, as their the ones I have put the least into so far.

[Fenchurch]

I'm reluctant because I don't want to have to go through the trouble of making a readslist. I'm very in-the-moment and 1V1 focused and so far the people I'm trying to engage with are taking their sweet time about getting back to me

I didn't want to go to the trouble either but I did it anyway. Quit being lazy.

Who are you trying to engage with and why? Pretty much all I've seen you do is ask people to ask their teammates to town-read you, and vote for lurkers.

[Fenchurch]

I'm behind a Zach lynch. Play overall seems scummy, but in particular his explanation of unvoting hiplop because of him acting more town... but not from anything Zach actually saw, just an assumption from the fact that other people had unvoted.

For someone who said, finding scum was hard for them,
I'm surprised that I was able to find this gem.
Your votes have been on many different people, can you explain?
Instead being erratic, I would like you to pick a lane.

So this is the gerry post I mentioned just now.

a) The post about Zach was a couple before the post where I mentioned that I didn't have a lot of strong reads. I don't think it's contradictory to have a scum read on someone but also still lament a lack of strong reads overall. I prefer to work holistically and by process of elimination, which relies on having a bunch of townreads as well as scumreads, and it's just harder in a larger, spammier game.

b) My votes haven't been on many different people, they've been on two: jjh and Zach. I wouldn't call that erratic.

To me this is typical of all of gerry's posts... doesn't really say anything interesting or true. I don't think he's scum for it, but I do think that posting in rhyme is probably limiting his ability to be meaningful.

[Fenchurch]

"I made a reads list and you decided you didn't want to so I'll shade you as lazy"

not good

It

IS

lazy. jjh has been one of the main wagons, and he's not giving any kind of content or opinions or anything useful.

I never said I expected him to do it just because I did, but I do want him to put some effort into the game and being readable. If he has no opinions, fine, but if he has them but just can't be bothered to share them, that's just bad play.

[Fenchurch]

pedit: okay I hate that post. That lazy part about JJ is terrible.

Trying to prod jjh into doing something is terrible.

Zach, get lost. Honestly.

[Fenchurch]

Fen, I'm trying to talk to Gerry and Katsuki, and maybe Thor though I haven't been as direct in that

Okay so like I said, you only seem interested in talking to the people who are voting you. Why is that?

You're voting Thor... is he a scumread? If so, why? I commented on your earlier 'case' against Thor. Response?

[Fenchurch]

I'm positive he didn't readlist in paint. I can't remember in RC's game, but he was one of the best town players there that game, which is why I questioned him early in paint and here where I thought he wasn't as good when I know he can be.

Okay, but he could still provide something. He's pegged you as town, but that's the first and only read he's given since page 5 or something. The rest has all been him pestering players who are voting him, or who are quiet.

Also he already posted one reads list this game

[Fenchurch]

momo - why the massive text, and why directed at me?

[Fenchurch]

You come in after a few days oof not postinbg and pretty much just go and break all the leading wagons.

Was this a serious thing or a joke?

I know you've already acknowledged that fro99er hasn't really had an impact on the leading wagons right now. But if he had done, why would that be scummy? And why did you think he had?

[Fenchurch]

Cause you called me out for flip flopping

the only way someone couldn't flip flop is if they already know everyone's alignments

Where did I say this? I don't think I ever have. fro99er said he was flipflopping on jjh.

I am voting Zach. Please don't shout.

[Fenchurch]

By the way momo... just yelling at people is unlikely to make them want to vote with you. And if you're gonna say someone has done something, please check that they've done the thing first.

[Fenchurch]

Ah okay thanks for explaining... I didn't expect it to come up now since I posted that quite a while ago.

I also wasn't expecting that kind of reaction momo, but fair enough. It's completely understandable to change your views - everyone does that - but I'd find it easier to follow your changes if you acknowledged that that's what you were doing. It comes across as more contradictory partly because you are so definitive about everything in the first place e.g. 'town would never do this' 'this person is definitely scum', etc.

[Fenchurch]

also, Fen isn't even really pushing Zach...just voting Zach.

I only push reads I feel really sure on. As I said, I've been reconsidering. If you're gonna ask why I haven't unvoted if I'm 'not really sure'; I only unvote if there is someone else I wanna move that vote to.

And that aside, I like it when people give reasons when they push. I find constant 'VOTE X' 'VOTE Y' posts a real turn-off. Playstyles, I guess.

Meta is relevant if the reasons you think a player is scummy are things that they always do.

I'm having a hard reconciling this stance with this

So giga/katyusha thinks Zach is town, you know they have a strong meta tell of Zach scum, and you're still okay with voting Zach?

I dunno. I don't like to rely entirely on someone else's read above my own, especially when I don't know their own alignment, I don't know the reasoning behind it, and I only have one example of her accuracy. But it's something; I'm mulling over.

you're still ignoring a supposed strong scum meta tell of Zach for your own read, despite putting stock in strong scum meta tells (and I've seen you do some meta-diving of your own)

When did I say I put stock in strong scum meta tells? I said that I use meta; I use it to try and avoid voting people for things that I would find scummy, but which it turns out they always do anyway as town.

In general, I don't put much stock in reads from other players, pretty much every game I've been in has multiple players insisting that some other player they know can't possibly scum; and usually at least one of them is wrong. Also relating to that...

Now that I know what the tell is I'm going to exploit the shit out of it.

This makes me feel somewhat less like I wanna put blind faith in Katyusha.

[Fenchurch]

You just quoted my quote of it

364

Ah - I see how you can read it like you have, but what I was trying to say in that post was the same thing that I did just now. That if someone is doing something you think is "scummy", but it turns out they always do that scummy thing, even in their town games, then meta is important to tell you that.

[Fenchurch]

It basically boils down to "he isn't scumhunting"

"He isn't scumhunting" is probably the crux of most cases I've ever made

Scumhunting is the one thing that town have to do and scum have to fake. And then the reason why I'm feeling less strong on it, is that Zach kinda implied that he might not scumhunt that much as town either, at least not in any way that I would consider scumhunting.

I've been over it already, but I still think that one point in particular was a scummy action. If you see other players move votes off someone, do you automatically decide 'oh that player must be town'? Without having seen any evidence for it yourself - would you declare them to be seeming town? The fact that Zach was willing to shows that he actually doesn't care about figuring out who is town. Even if you find scumhunting hard, that doesn't seem a thought process town would have.

I also think his whole OMGUS section against Sleepy and then me, continually failed to give any reason why either of us is actually scum is pretty bad. Eventually he comes up with "I don't think she's trying to find scum." 10 pages later, still with no evidence to back it up.

[Fenchurch]

I don't think I have to say it, but there's evidence why it's true for Zach, whereas he just claims the same with absolutely nothing to back it up. wink wink.

@Fen - do you townread jjh? I could do with more jjh voting.
You can keep at the Zach angle as a side convo, but I'd like your vote moved.

I go back and forth on jjh. When he answered me in 897 and said that he'll share opinions when he's more confident of them, that seemed reasonable to me. I also think it's reasonable that he seems to be trying to get more a balance in the game and hear from the less readable people.

On the other hand, I don't know how he's townreading Kats. And the fact that he has 'too many townreads' could be a scumtell... when I'm scum, I find it a lot easier to give townreads than scumreads. I could carry on about individual things he's done... but the point is that nothing I think about him is conclusive.

What's your reason for townlean on Zach? And for you, what is the main reason for jjh being scum?

[Fenchurch]

is that nothing I think about him is conclusive.

Actually just to add; the thing he picked up about hiplop in 944 seemed valid, and like it would come from a town point of view.

[Fenchurch]

I'd like to poke sheep a bit though. One of my teammates has a hard scum read there and begged me to pursue it.

dave

, I noticed this on reading back, although afterwards you also said it was a policy vote/sorting mechanism. Which is it, and if there was a hard scumread, what was it based on?

Also

To people townreading momo -- this is a game he modded. How does someone who modded a game I was in, saw me vote a gimmick, knows I was town in that game, have that as the reason I'm not town here? (Is he just wrong, or does he know he's wrong???)

momo

- I don't think you ever responded to this post. Comments?

[Fenchurch]

Don't L-1 me until I can get RC's reads. I know every time I name drop someone on my team momo makes it seem like I'm being coached, but my team hasn't been keeping up with this very well or at all past skims.

I have no problem with you posting any reads they have, but if you're suggesting it might take a while because they're not up to speed on the game, then this feels a bit like a stalling tactic...

[Fenchurch]

I have a post where I interact directly with her on parts of her reads and things. She didn't even engage me.

I'll play ball with this

@Fenchurch

how come you didn't respond to 818?

Yeah, I felt bad about that, because I had basically promised Zach that I would.

But then when I read it, I couldn't find a way to respond to it that wasn't just me being really mean.

And I don't like being that mean. And it also didn't really seem that it needed a response (like, I didn't think anyone was gonna read it and be persuaded by it). So I didn't.

But I did feel bad for breaking a promise.

[Fenchurch]

For Zach and Sleepy: My response to #818. It's actually isn't that mean, there are a couple of good points (sections 4 and 5, maybe) but for the most part it is long and nitpicky and doesn't advance the game, so it's going behind a spoiler.

Spoiler:

Yikes. I'd like to think scum me would do the moderately intelligent option and at least attempt to convince the townies
Hiplop vote didn't mean a lott tho and he may still be scum

I don't follow the second part of this sentence (the hiplop vote didn't mean a lot but he may still be scum - surely these things don't go together?),

Like I acknowledge that I OMGUS a lot but that doesn't mean what he's doing is really good (It doesn't even mean OMGUS is bad) and also I completely doubt he really has me and espeonage as scum lol so I would vote there again. I definitely don't believe he's that confident in those reads because there's not enough substance behind them for them to be real. Espeonage's ISO isn't that great at all but having Zach/Espe is just fake probably.

Hiplop basically assents to SleepyKrew's shitty description of my play, earlier in the game he calls out Espeonage for liking momo's post describing his which I think is a similar scenario. I think this is worth noting.

I still don't think this answers my point - that it seems contradictory to say 'my hiplop vote didn't mean a lot and he may be scum'. All this paragraph does is talk more about how hiplop might be scum. But I feel like I'm just arguing about sentence structure here.

Why would I expect scum-you to be more intelligent than town-you?

To play scum you just have to make stuff up. That is really easy. To play town you have to actually be competent................ duh that's why I suck.

To play scum you make stuff up; but it has to make sense, it has to be believable, if someone questions you about what you've done then you have to have an answer that fits a town motive. I don't think this is as easy at Zach makes out.

And on the other hand, to be town, you have try to find scum; no it's not that easy succeeding, but the trying is easy. If someone asks you a question about what you've done, you'll have an answer and it will make sense because you were acting for town reasons.

Another way of describing my scumread on Zach is that it seems that most of the time he is pretty clearly 'just making stuff up'.

As in, what he's saying and what happened are two different things but this doesn't get pointed out, uh, ever. Is this because everyone knows? But you're condoning it?

What is davesaz doing? I remember a Miller claim then I remember getting upset over frog memes. Neither of those things are particulary useful.

No, I don't think momo's accusations make sense, but I'm trying to focus on things that are actually scummy, and as far as I know momo posts like that regardless of alignment. So I'm not going to waste time and threadspace arguing with him when it doesn't matter.

The thing is it does matter, it kind of matters a lot. When he's driving a mislynch that you're also on so he can't actually be a null-read to you. He's not posting in abstracts so his style doesn't matter at all, he's clearly pushing me but it's a bad push by all quantifiable standards. The thing here is it's definitely something you should care about so this really sucks. It's like you're trying to say that his posts have been NAI. That completely dances around this whole issue.

This is just silly, the suggestion here is that in order to vote with someone, I have to townread them. What if scum bus - in that situation, assuming I have good reads on both players, I can't actually vote for their target, who is also scum, because there is scum on the wagon?

I do have a pretty much null read on momo. No, it doesn't matter. I vote for the person I think is most scummy, that isn't momo, it's Zach.

I could make like case type cases on my scumreads, but no one engages me on logic

Please do this. I will engage you.

I think I'd like to lynch you.

Even in this whole post Zach hasn't actually provided a case, no reasons why I might be scum, despite having been asked about 100 times already. For that matter, he keeps saying "I want to lynch Fenchurch", but he hardly ever says "I think Fenchurch is scum".

Why could this be, huh?

I didn't cover anything up. I didn't try? If I did you .. it would be covered?

Okay, covered it up is the wrong phrase maybe.

What I see is two things:
a) you unvoted hiplop for "acting more town", even though you didn't actually see him acting town. This says that you don't actually care whether your vote is on scum or not, you just care about who other people are voting. Not caring about whether your vote is on scum or not is a scumtell, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter if you know who scum are, it matters if you can lynch them. I know how much influence I don't have so I don't go for things if I don't have people following me. It's actually really arbitrary to continue arguing about some shit that doesn't really mean a lot that happened earlier in the game so I'm just gonna say I don't give a fuck. My current stance on hiplop is above.

It's not as if I cared about who other people were voting, I cared about the likelihood of lynches I want and things I assume. I don't even remember what happened at that point in the game now, so it's why I don't really care to speak about it.

"That scumtell I made earlier was ages ago so it doesn't mean a lot. Also I've tried different ways of explaining it but they were all scummy so now I'm just going to claim I don't remember"

b) when first questioned, you implied your unvote was based on an opinion hiplop's alignment (which makes it look like you're trying to read people), when in fact it was based purely on other player's votes.

Based on their votes not being there, yeah? I don't feel like this line of questioning is particularly indicative.

A town player doesn't just assume someone is town because other people unvote them.

Why do people townread SleepyKrew? Is it because he has the tone of a graphing calculator? He be lying too it's just that no one cares any more LOL the bar has already been set

I think Sleepy's actions have all made sense and been relevant and felt town

logic is.. presentable i guess(well this is really relative)

he posts as if there's an implied thought process behind his stuff but for most of his push on me he hasn't really engaged me and now apparently he either genuinely reads me as scum for play based actions which is laughable or he is scum or he doesn't care about me being lynched and he's town. the latter two to me are far more likely scenarios

Why is it laughable to find your playbased actions scummy? Sleepy has questioned you a bunch of times, how is that not engaging? There's no reason giving here, it's just posturing fluff.

because in a game like this it would be easy to get blinded by someone just being competent and sensible.

well this is true of any game

he looks townie enough because it doesn't really seem like he's afraid of anything or has an agenda
even as he's mislynching me it's very casual, it looks really good

So far, this is the spammiest, least enjoyable game I've ever played in, and I think if that were not the case, I'd have a lot more hope of making good reads, regardless of playstyle and competence.

What did Sleepy lie about?

btw if people missed it,

zach tried to get a wagon going on me,

nothing happened, so he stopped pretending to scumread me and is trying on fen now
also I think he's engaging with momo as a smokescreen

575 - " u want to 1v1"

578- where i vote him

i didn't really try to get a wagon on him because i didn't offer a case or anything serious just my gut feels

saying i pretended to scumread people is just a lie

the last sentence literally means nothing at all. it's awful

I thought Sleepy's post was a completely fair description of what you did. You tried to discredit Sleepy by acting like he was scum, but he immediately questioned you and you couldn't come up with any good answers so you decided to switch to me.
'Engaging momo as a smokescreen' - this is because a lot of momo's points are reachy, and so continually focusing on those is just distracting from the more legitimate points against you.

Zach is posting a lot and seems easygoing, but if I look at the content it's only a few votes and scumreads without any reasoning to back it up, with more filler than substance.
It gives me an impression that he's slinging mud to see what might stick.

interesting...

I like this.

That's a terrible post what the fuck. It's the most basic generalization you can make about anyone but especially me.
What the fuck.

Sheep's description of Fr099er's catch up sucks a lot because all of that shit he asserts as a towntell can be replicated. It's posturing. Just throwing that out there.

pedit have you read a single post from momo?

Fro99er's catch up was the most town thing I've read so far. Yes, anyone can do a catch up, but doing it in a way where most of your observations are accurate, relevant and genuine is hard as scum.

And yes I've read most of momo's posts.

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[Fenchurch]

Dammit, my spoiler broke

[Fenchurch]

Alisae

- please could you add a [/spoiler] to the end of my long post?

[Fenchurch]

Yes, I'm aware of that.
There seems to be plenty of good conversation going on.
Why would I want to end that prematurely? There are

3 scum

to catch, not just 1.

What is this?

Espe - I wanted to know about this too. Why did you react like this? Did you not know there are 3 scum? How many did you think there were?

Other people have made posts with suggestions about specific 3-player scumteams they suspect. Did you notice that too?

[Fenchurch]

My team has 2 of his closest friends, they say he is obvious town.
What makes you think he's as red as the nose of a clown?

His reads seem made up - he throws loads of scum accusations around but doesn't back any of them up.

Can you give reasons for what about his play makes him town? Preferably not in rhyme, because I feel like it constrains your ability to communicate well. Or just... make the sentences really long and put a rhyme word at the end that is unrelated. That would be fine.

I read the post of Zach's that Thor said was town. I actually agree that it did seem town. But I don't think it makes up for all of the rest.

[Fenchurch]

Fen's probably town

Why do you put me as town now?

[Fenchurch]

this is just fucking ridiculous.

Could be waiting for advice from scumbuddies on what to claim?

Zach - if you are town then I'd really suggest that you do claim. I can't think of any reason why it'd be better for a player to just let themselves be lynched rather than claim first and let us factor that into our decision. And I can only think of scum reasons for taking ages over doing it.

[Fenchurch]

I'm completely confused by the wording of the Hider role PM, since it definitely reads as 'if you target scum you will die' (and I imagine that's what Thor would have assumed, given his crumb, plus that's a standard hider role) but Alisae seems to be saying that is not the case, and if you target scum it just means the hiding action doesn't take place...

At any rate though, it seems clear cut that if Thor died, his hide action didn't work, and that means momo is scum. I've double checked there's not anything else in Thor's history crumbing a target; it's pretty clear.

VOTE: momo

Also I'm not surprised if Katsuki is scum too. Excellent Day 2.

Not so sold on sheep. I believe the claim, but it's true that it doesn't need to be a town role. And without reading the PMs, I would have assumed Thor was killed and Espe was vigged. Depends if you assume that sheep as town would read the PMs.

[Fenchurch]

Re-reading Thor’s role, I can’t even tell if it is even supposed to protect him from kills, or just make him untargetable...

Alisae

, assuming no other interactions, can you confirm what would happen in the following situations:

a) Thor hides behind town, and someone tries to kill Thor. Thor dies? Y/N
b) Thor hides behind scum, and nobody tries to kill Thor. Thor dies? Y/N
c) Thor hides behind scum, and somebody tries to kill Thor. Thor dies? Y/N

UNVOTE: for now.

[Fenchurch]

Thank you!

Okay, that seems pretty clear then

VOTE: momo

[Fenchurch]

I am so confused right now.

Why did both hebi and Sleepy die? What vig would have shot either of them? Do the scumteam just have two kills?

[Fenchurch]

So with Hebi’s flip i realized how to effectively use my role.

I used an ability called ‘True Love’ Night 1.

Well that's a relief. But why did you think your role makes you conf town?

[Fenchurch]

fern, did you receive anything last night

I'm not sure there's a benefit to me answering this right now.

Btw important to note: fenchurch is not conftown, we know there is godfather.

Oh I'd forgotten that. I guess I can't be as obstinate as I was originally planning to.

VOTE: jjh

I'm behind this.

[Fenchurch]

Btw important to note: fenchurch is not conftown, we know there is godfather.

Although; do you think that the godfather would still show up as confirmed town in this kind of situation? Genuine question.

[Fenchurch]

Although; do you think that the godfather would still show up as confirmed town in this kind of situation? Genuine question.

Never mind; I've just seen it's described as an 'alignment investigation' rather than 'confirmed town' so the godfather probably would show as town.

[Fenchurch]

From my team:

hiplop

: why can't you vote today?

Fro99er:

singer says hi! She skimmed D1 and said she thought you were town but also admitted it's largely because she thinks you wouldn't have picked scum. She thought your play D2 was a bit weird (the conclusions you jumped to) - but I'm not sure I agree with that and I don't think it really changed her overall assessment.

[Fenchurch]

There’s a role that takes away votes.

Okay, that's pretty much what I expected. How do you know this - role info, or just guessing?

[Fenchurch]

I’ve been trying to figure out who it is. Also a reason Sheep’s my biggest scum read.

Oh I see, that's what happened to you yesterday - I just assumed it was a minor mod error in the votecount. Okay!

Why does it implicate sheep?

[Fenchurch]

Fenchurch, all your posts and questions come off as incredibly fake to me...

Well you're just gonna have to get over that

Look at how he targeted me after the VCA statement I made.

Thanks for giving an explanation. sheep reads as VI to me, but so did momo and momo was scum. I was hoping sheep would be a vig kill and then I wouldn't have to worry about trying to figure out of he is scum or not.

I thought sheep's points in 1967 and 1970 were valid though... with momo having been confirmed scum, I don't think it's super significant in itself whether you were on or off that wagon.

I think Alisae missed my vote.

Got a pm saying my vote doesn't count

Boon, if you got targeted by the same action, why did you start off by saying that you thought Alisae just missed your vote?

[Fenchurch]

Boon:

are you saying that your role name is 'Dreaming God'?

[Fenchurch]

Fenchurch, did you awaken SKrew? Or did it just happen. Because if you didn’t, i probably was the one to awaken him.

I didn't awaken him, but I don't think your role did either. It says 'I attempted to awaken' him - not that I did awaken him - and I think that's just the flavour explanation for me getting publicly investigated, due to his having been targeting me when he died.

I think the 'True Love' thing did work on hebi's role but probably not Sleepy's. Her passive talks about true love whereas his is about being awakened by a prince.

[Fenchurch]

UNVOTE:

jjh and Fro99er's claims seem believable. Fro99er's role matches the mod flavour thing, and I can't see that being a scum role. Also I did wonder if a vig shot got redirected. But I wouldn't expect a shot to go off in that case if the vig didn't choose to shoot, but I'm also could imagine that Alisae might.

Alisae

- if there was a redirector and they redirected a vig, but the vig didn't shoot, would a shot still fire as a result of the redirection?

hiplop - I don't have a lot of trust for Boon but he claimed he was pretending not to know as a reaction test, like maybe, to see if someone jumped out and said 'you didn't have a vote that day because I neutralised you'. In 2000 he does actually say "I knew I didn't have a vote yesterday", and this was before hiplop had confirmed that he got a PM.

[Fenchurch]

I also want mod clarification on the redirect. But aside from that, I believe the two claims, and that leaves 2 scum in 6 people. I'll read back on this, but for now I'm gonna trust jjh's team reads.

VOTE: hiplop

[Fenchurch]

Look, I just know that Hebichan likely loved Sleepy.

How do you know this? Ignoring the flavour because that's already been covered.

[Fenchurch]

"The mod NEVER ANSWERED THAT, only the suicide thing. EATEN BY the flavor of death by mafia. It's clearly obvious. I pointed that out after what boon said earlier"

jjh has claimed the Espe-kill, and that has the 'eaten by' flavour, whereas Thor's doesn't. Do you believe jjh's claim?

[Fenchurch]

hiplop

- were you the one to neighbourised hebi on N1?

[Fenchurch]

Definitely did not receive anything from sheep last Night.

It’s half past midnight here and have an audition thing tomorrow morning so I can’t catch up more fully tonight, will have to wait until tomorrow afternoon.

[Fenchurch]

Oky so, I have two pieces of info to share and I'm gonna do it in full.

hebi neighbourised me N2

, not Sleepy. I considered sharing this at the very start of the Day, but opted not to because:
a) at first I thought I was completely confirmed by the public investigation, so it felt better to keep my thoughts and info close to my chest, as for instance…
b) the info could be used to confirm or contradict a claimed tracker/watcher action… if all info is completely open then there is no way to do that.

But almost everyone has claimed now, I don’t think there is much harm, and hopefully it will stop gerry from getting continually sidetracked by the kill flavour thing.

And this is also why I came into the day a bit confused, because a few things all happened quite quickly:
1. I targetted hebi on N2; I’ll come to why later.
2. At the end of the Night I got a PM saying me and hebi were in a neighbourhood. I didn’t know if this was her inviting me, or another player inviting both of us, or something happening a result of me targetting her.
3. Reading the neighbourhood - The Beast’s Castle - it was immediately revealed that, we were lovers, but then we weren’t because the beast had broken the curse by finding true love, and this also meant that we were confirmed town to each other. At this point I’m thinking:

• was it hebi who put me in the neighbourhood, or someone else - it was only the two of us in there, but it didn’t say that she had invited me, or that she was Beauty and/or the Beast
  
• whether my character is the beast’s true love (it certainly didn’t seem likely based on flavour)
  
• if not that, then what happened that caused the curse to break
  
• also quite excited that hebi would know I’m town.

4. Then the game thread opens and it turns out that both hebi and Sleepy were dead. And in Sleepy’s death, it also says I’m linked to awakening him, and I’m also revealed as town here.

So at that point I was just trying to understand what had happened, what was linked and what was not - why there was a second kill and it wasn't sheep - and it took a little while of reading the role PMs to figure it out most of it. But this is part of why I assumed I was conf town in the game thread as well - because at first I thought maybe those two reveals on me were linked.

Other notes:
- when sheep asked me what happened to me during the Night, I didn’t say nothing, I said I didn’t want to reveal yet
- whoever neighbourised hebi N1 might be able to confirm this, because she might have discussed with them the fact she was targeting me.
- when gerry he was pushing so strongly that ‘hebi targetted Sleepy’, I was especially interested in case he was trying to claim something that contradicted what I knew had happened, but it does look like he was just going by expectations of her play, and the kill flavour.

~~~~~~

Onto my claim and my night actions.

I am Goldilocks, I’m an Alchemist

- CES says he would call this role a Motivator, but I’m not sure what it is on the wiki. I target somebody and depending what they are doing, I modify or improve it. The flavour justification is that Goldilocks likes things to be ‘just right’, and she's got no problems messing with other people's stuff.

If I target a protective action, it become an Elite Bodyguard (killer and protector both die)
If I target an investigative action, it becomes a Cop.
If I target a roleblocking action, it will only roleblock factional stuff (e.g. a kill)
If I target a killing action, it will become a friendly neighbour.

It has no effect on other types of action, e.g. neighbourise. The kill that becomes a friendly neighbour will actually confirm scum as scum(!) to their target - I don’t know whether the godfather is immune to this though; Alisae wouldn’t say.

Once I’d clarified what everything did, it seemed like targetting the scum kill was far and away the strongest use of this action. So that’s what I tried to do Night 1.

My thought process for my Night 1 action

I had reasons not to target...
Sleepy, Frog, hebi - all seemed fairly townie, and possible nightkills
Espe, Boon - both seemed scummy, but had softclaimed that they’d be ‘conf town’ - I thought (like Sleepy did?) that one or both might be softing friendly neighbour, so my action would be completely wasted if they were telling the truth, and if their claims ended up not confirming them they could be dealt with then
Thor - null, but if scum then I would expect him to be the Godfather, so might be immune and might not make the kill (to avoid getting caught by track/watch)
momo, sheep - null, would be good to get an result on them if they made the kill, but that was only an outside chance and if instead that I boost their action I wasn’t sure I trusted them to have used it well, e.g. to protect or investigate the right person
hiplop - I’ve gone back and forth on hiplop a lot, but at the time I thought he was town for the way he tried to push a claim with threat of hammer and then backed off. I would have liked Zach to claim there, rather than simply being hammer, as I find generally the claim itself and the reactions to it are really useful in rooting out scum.
jjh - null, but I felt that since he’d been under so much heat on D1 the scumteam might avoid him making the kill
Katsuki - no read based on play, but I had some theories about Katsuki’s role that made me think (very weakly) he might be town. I won’t share them because Katsuki hasn’t claimed yet.

This narrowed it down to dave and gerry, both null reads. And ultimately I plumped for gerry because I thought there was an outside chance that dave’s VLA might mean he wouldn't submit a Night action (including a scum kill).

End result:

I targetted gerry Night 1

. Since gerry still hasn’t claimed, I don’t know if it had any effect, but he’ll only have noticed it if he tried to investigate or tried to kill.

My thought process for my Night 2 action

At this point, it seemed like there was a vig, and I became a bit wary that I might hit them instead of scum. I was expecting that a vig would kill sheep, and I'd much prefer that kill to go through than me targetting the vig and having their kill turned into a friendly neighbour action at sheep.

I did consider targetting sheep myself. Although I didn’t think sheep's D2 ‘slip’ was that real, I found him scummy for the way he leapt in to argue against momo being implicated by the kill… like maybe that was something they'd already discussed the scumtopic and decided that it

shouldn’t

make momo seem suspicious.

But if a vig killed sheep, then me targeting him too seemed pointless. (Note: looking back on this now - and of course with the benefit of hindsight - I should still have targeted sheep because it might have stopped a kill... I had gotten too focused on making use of the 'friendly neighbour' thing to try and confirm someone as scum.)

There were a bunch of players (Boon, Katsuki) that I found scummy but I also thought they had a chance of being vig - this could have explained why Boon implied he would be conf town, and although he’d been townreading Espe earlier in the Day, he might have changed his mind by Night. Katsuki was scumreading Espe, and Katsuki’s frog thing might have made some sense if he was vig (i.e. he doesn't care about looking town).

Ultimately though, I settled on hebi as a kind of safe option, because she’d said D2 that she targetted Sleepy and didn’t get a result - so I assumed she had an investigative action that would get boosted by my power.

End result:

I targetted hebi Night 2.

Since she was a neighbouriser, this will have had no effect.

[Fenchurch]

Onto the thread.

VOTE: sheep

Didn't know what an arsonist was before this it makes sense but what everyone else has said about it matching both the flavour and the claim, and it makes sense as a scum role in this game. There's quite a lot of town power, so it does seem like scum have to have something to boost them, and I'm guessing that the arsonist might be immune to some protective stuff that could prevent normal kills.

I've got no idea why sheep has decided to claim it... presumably he was hoping he could get me mislynched, and maybe with the extra arson kills (and poison?) scum would actually finish everyone off N3?

Notes from singer:
Frogger - she wants to tell you that I'm not scum, and also she thinks it's bad play that you are using my info from her as evidence to conftown yourself whilst also trying to get me killed. She disapproves of me being set up to be vigged (I don't feel so strongly about it myself, provided I'm confident that it helps us win the game for sure... I haven't come to a conclusion on that yet)
On Katsuki - PRs make her think of scum hiding something
On sheep - singer and Patrick both thought the original 'scumslip' about the N1 kill wasn't a scumslip, but singer does say that sheep's follow ups about it (e.g. 'it was obvious') have been bad. (Note: I don't think they've got to the bit where sheep conf-scums himself with the claim.)

[Fenchurch]

Yep. Congrats.

I mean, you also said I should have received something from you and that was a lie so there's that too.

Did you get anything last night?

~~~~~~~~~

My vote there was foolish because I realised as soon as I'd placed it that I didn't even know the current vote count

Have started going back through things and I would like jjh to be able to vig Katsuki tonight if he wants to, so.

VOTE: Katsuki

That's 2 votes on Katsuki, we need 4 for him to be L-1.

[Fenchurch]

@Fenchurch - I broke your curse. I used an ability called True Love night 1.

I know that. I was talking there about my thoughts right at the end of N1/start of D1.

[Fenchurch]

@Fenchurch - you’re also supposed to be the hammer for Sheep.

I'll do this if I think it's the best thing for town at the time.

[Fenchurch]

POINT OUT WHERE THE FUCK IM TRYING TO GET YOU KILLED

maybe...unless I redirect the scum kill onto fen

See above.

singer is pretty sure you also supported/made the suggestion that I be the one to hammer sheep so that I could be vigged, but we can't find a post to confirm it, so maybe you didn't actually say that, and she just got that impression because the game is a massive spam fest - and because you keep suggesting me as possible scum.

She also isn't reading the game thoroughly, she just comments on things that catch her attention - in particular I think she reads your bits because she knows you. The sheep claim didn't catch her attention.

And Frog it's pretty annoying you freaking out about stuff like this. Do you think I'm lying about singer saying it, or do you think she's lying about thinking it?

[Fenchurch]

We have a friend over tonight so I can't post here any more now. Will read Kats post and other stuff later.

Frog - I already said we couldn't actually find a post like that and so we're acknowledging that you might not have actually said it or felt it. BUT. Skim-read the last 10 pages and see if you can't see how my team would get a vibe that there was a general plan for me to hammer and get vigged - and that because you were around and pointing to me as scum that you were in support of this - because I definitely can.

[Fenchurch]

Like if you can’t see why i’m annoyed then I can’t help you.

I can understand why you could be annoyed but if you said "that's wrong" instead of "I think you're lying" then I wouldn't feel such desire to shout at you...

DON'T YOU GUYS DARE PUT ME AT L1 I WILL BECOME CONFTOWN TOMORROW IF FENCHURCH TARGETS ME TONIGHT

SHE PROBABLY HAS AN IDEA OF WHAT IM REFERRING TO

I'm afraid that right now I don't. I'll think about this, but I revealed everything about my role in my claim, so everyone else has as much of a chance of working this out as me.

My Plan A is to lynch scum today and then try and target the remaining scum in the night to block them. But even if there's a kill I don't think I can conf-town someone because the scum still have the 1-shot roleblock.

The most obvious scumteam right now seems like sheep-Katsuki, but I'd like to try and figure out if we can secure the win no matter who the scum are, rather than relying on gut-feel about the claims.

[Fenchurch]

sheep

- did you receive anything last night? Y/N

[Fenchurch]

I haven’t read the past 2 pages but CES says I need to remind me that hebi neighbouried me on Night 2, and I didn’t die when she did because of the True Love thing. See 2603

Can’t post more now I’m at a magic show. It’s the interval.

[Fenchurch]

Does Coggy have any other thoughts on the game?

I wouldn't say that any of my team are reading this more than superficially. CES, Patrick and singer were playing devil's advocate when I described sheep's scum-claim... they reckoned I should consider a specific edge case whereby he might not be scum - because they couldn't understand why he'd choose to make such a scummy claim if he really was scum... why not just fakeclaim something better. I pointed out a reason why even the edge case didn't make sense. I also think there are several possible reasons for sheep making such a scummy claim:
a) sheep didn't realise it was going to be that scummy
b) sheep thought that by claiming elements of his role that were true, he was less likely to be caught in a lie
c) sheep anticipated being lynched today after 4 other players thought he'd scum-slipped on the previous Day, and thought this was his best chance at getting me mislynched first.

I don't think they are aware of how much he's clammed up since then. CES is fine with my current reads.

Katsuki, in your 2627 all caps outburst you said that you thought I was town but also that sheep is town. Did you read the bit in 2327 where sheep said his claim confirms me as scum? He says that he targets someone each night and leaves them an item, which they should know about. As long as he targets town, nothing happens. If he targets scum, all previous targets die. He said he targeted hebi and then me, and hebi died, therefore I'm scum.

I have not received any item.

You can't think we are both town. And Boon has confirmed from the neighbourhood that I'm town.

~~~~~~~

Frog

- I'm not ready to lynch because I'm still figuring out the best ways to use Night actions to secure a win, but right now I agree with hiplop that it seems like Katsuki is just trying to buy one more Night with sheep and him both alive. With only one scum alive this Night, our power roles all become MUCH stronger than with both of them alive.

[Fenchurch]

Katsuki

- I don't understand your 'case' on Boon at all. I've looked back through and you've yet to give any actual reason for it. Sure, his role

could

be scum, but there's nothing in it or his play that makes it more likely than not - and certainly not moreso than sheep. I've outlined the case on sheep above. Why do you disagree with this? And what is the supposedly strong link you've seen between momo and Boon?

~~~~~~

Sidenote: it is awkward to ctrl-F for interactions between momo and Boon, because momo has a quote from Boon in his sig. What a clever scumtrick...

[Fenchurch]

Frog

- can you use your redirect to redirect someone onto themselves? Or does it have to be two different targets?

Also - can you or someone else who's townreading gerry explain why? I still don't have a read on him. It might not be necessary for me to, but I like to be sure.

~~~~~~

hiplop

- can you explain your suicide action is? You target someone else and you and them both die? If you can do this during the day, do you have to have chosen to active it the night before? Could this be roleblocked?

If you have 9 actions available and can take 3 actions each night, how come so far you've only used one (according to 2722)?

[Fenchurch]

(Why is that a thing???)

Do you have to decide to use it the night before? And can you use 3 actions per night, or have I misunderstood?

[Fenchurch]

I mean, CES points out that suicide does have a pro-town use because it can buy the town a lynch. If your gonnna definitely be lynched, you suicide and then the town can still lynch someone else that day. I just still thought it was gonna be something better than that

[Fenchurch]

Jjjhs’s posts all make sense.

VOTE: sheep

[Fenchurch]

UNVOTE:

[Fenchurch]

L-1 on sheep done.

Katsuki, you’re gonna have to come up with something better than ‘this is stupid’ if you’re not scum.

[Fenchurch]

If he was truthful about his claim, and you got no item, it would mean his action did not arrive at you. I can fathom a reality where both you and sheep are town.

Dave has claimed a redirect on sheep, but if Dave and sheep were both town then they should have both received an item.

No one else has claimed to have redirected sheep, so the only other option is scum could have done so. In this case they must have redirected sheep onto themselves, in order for the hebi-death to take place. Why would scum redirect sheep? I could see them thinking he might have been a vig, because that was an alternate theory for the ‘scumslip’ yesterday. But why would scum direct a suspected vig onto themselves?

I was waiting for YOU to post something like this because you claim to believe sheep is town. But you haven’t, because you’re not actually trying to solve the game, you’re just trying to spread confusion.

What is your explanation for the two kills last night? Because mine is that the scumteam though sheep was reasonably likely to get lynched Today (4 people thought he sdumslipped Yesterday) so they pulled the trigger on the arson kills before it was too late. They also hoped his claim, backed up by that kill, might work as a guilty on me and get them one more mislynch..

Dave - people have been asking sheep about his night action for the past 2 days and he just ignores it, but if you can get an answer out of him, great.

[Fenchurch]

Yeah I’d prefer to lynch sheep as he’s both more likely scum, and more likely the strongman. Godfathers’s kill can be blocked.

[Fenchurch]

And you're right, if we flip the strongman then Fench should still target Hiplop only Hiplop should do poison doctor to be an elite bodyguard instead

If sheep flips Strongman then I’m pretty sure I just target Kats to convert his kill into a friendly neighbour.

[Fenchurch]

Nah Fench, Scum have a choice of 1-shot roleblocker or 1-shot rolestopper tonight, either of which would prevent you doing that

If we can L-1 Katsuki, then he wouldn’t be able to roleblock me and you both.

What does the rolestop do though? Scum can use it on themselves and it would protect them from any vig kills or other actions? Can they still kill whilst being rolestopped?

[Fenchurch]

VOTE: Katsuki

Hiplop you can vote and unvote really quick

[Fenchurch]

I don’t believe Katsuki on the script threat.

I do believe he’ll try to self hammer, but I’m willing to take that risk because I’m 85% sure he’s the second scum. And if Hiplop does it super quickly then Katsuki probably wouldn’t get in there.

[Fenchurch]

Frogger don't replace out. Katsuki is just a massive jerk - probably scum, but even as town.

dave - I can understand you being cautious e.g. saying that Frogger's claim is not confirmed... but at some point you have to settle on what's most likely and work from there. Frogger's role matches the info we've had from the mod. Frogger's role fits as a town role. Frogger himself seems town.

I can also understand you wanting to hear more info from sheep to clarify his claim if you have had interaction with his role, but do remember he has refused to answer any questions for the past 3 days, and only pops in to defend against the fact he's posting elsewhere but not here, but doesn't bother to answer the other questions directed at him - which would be quite easy to do.

~~~~~

sheep

- if you are town, please come and full claim what your role is called and how it works, for dave's benefit.
Also please confirm if you received anything last Night.

[Fenchurch]

Frogger I'm glad I played with you.

I don't mind being the hammer but even in the unlikely chance that sheep flips town, which I don't think is going to happen, remember that dave claimed to have redirected sheep's N2 action onto himself and sheep, so it didn't even target me anyway. You can shoot me if you think I'm scum, but sheep's claim alone shouldn't be the basis for that.

[Fenchurch]

Okay yeah that's fair.

[Fenchurch]

I'm happy to hammer if Frog votes. I still know I'm not scum even in the 1% chance that he flips town - CES thinks I should point out that Boon has read the neighbourhood where I go confirmed as town with hebi. There's a scum redirect that we don't know where it went, and whilst I can't think why that would happen, it's still not enough for me to feel 100%.

But I'm happy to hammer and let you make the call if it's needed.

Assuming sheep flips scum,

I'm going to target hiplop tonight

. If he's town then he seems the best use for my action, because it means scum can't guarantee they get a kill through with the role stop - hiplop can use the protective action to turn into an elite bodyguard, and potentially take out the last scum. And if hiplop is actually scum then maybe my role will block a kill.

[Fenchurch]

I'm here we were just having dinner. I can still hammer.

Sheep I explained literally in that same post why I see it as 99% sure but not 100%.

Dave - you said you wanted to see if sheep was compulsive and now he's claimed and he didn't mention compulsive. Why are you voting me now?

[Fenchurch]

VOTE: sheep

[Fenchurch]

i mean that was sleepy wasnt it

No. Someone neighbourised hebi during N1. She claimed it in her first post on D2 as she didn't know who it was at the time. It wasn't Sleepy, he didn't have a neighbourise action. Nobody's claimed it yet... I asked earlier if it was you.

I'm not believing anything from sheep without seeing a flip.

Also Dave I still don't get why you voted me at the end of the Day. If sheep hasn't lied about his role then why didn't you and sheep both receive the item that He said would come as part of it. Why aren't you bothered about this?

[Fenchurch]

I mean... I don’t know hebi, but that seems like a really weird thing to do. She said the neighbourhood was called The Tower.

Dave - if you think sheep is scum, don’t you think he should have received an item though? I kept asking about this and he never answered. Also I disagree that miller would trigger something like that, eg look at Thors role for reference, it says ‘if you target someone not aligned with you’.

[Fenchurch]

^ an additional reason that

I didn't want to lynch before the mod was available to answer questions

But no, some people have to be in a hurry.

Sheep didn’t seem to wanna ask the question and you never bothered to ask it yourself. How long do you wait if the scum suspect keeps ignoring your requests to do something?

Maybe Katsuki’s question will get an answer but to me it seems like a ridiculous hypothetical that a mod couldn’t answer if that role didn’t exist, and so I don’t think Alisae would answer (as in the event that such a role did exist, e would be confirming it’s existence).

[Fenchurch]

Ugh, too many posts for me to finish reading this morning and then I had a really busy day at work. Am caught up now.

I did target hiplop last Night but I'm pretty sure I'll have been blocked. gerry neighbourised me and I'm in that neighbourhood now. Notably, hebi didn't mention anything in there about receiving an item, this is part of why gerry was convinced about sheep being scum - because sheep definitely claimed that hebi as town would have an item and she didn't seem to have gotten one. It's a shame sheep didn't flip, but I'm also still 99.9% sure he was scum.

Also, I can't be scum with sheep, since I wouldn't have been able to kill last Night.

The wording for me and hebi in The Beast's Castle neighbourhood is 'confirmed town'. Boon basically quoted it word for word in 2739. I do think it's suspicious on Boon's part that he downplayed this just now in 3753 when jjh was asking, ignoring the 'confirmed' bit which makes the investigation stronger. I think based on the way it's worded that it would only confirm true town and not a godfather, but I don't have any way of knowing.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Alisae won't confirm how a godfather would resolve with this, because she also wouldn't tell me how a godfather would show through my friendly neighbouriser action. CES thinks that a godfather wouldn't be immune to either investigation type, and would show as scum, but Alisae evidently wants to leave it open. I can ask.

[Fenchurch]

This is a mod confirmed lie

No it's not. I can say what I've read in that neighbourhood and dave can confirm it. Alisae confirmed that gerry could have kicked the previous tenant out without neighbourising someone else, but didn't say that's what happened.

All she says there is that the tenant is not 'permanently stuck there'.

[Fenchurch]

Like seriously, why on earth do you think I would lie about that?

[Fenchurch]

It means that I'm only in there for one Day, and not the rest of the game.

[Fenchurch]

I mean, Alisae hasn't confirmed that, but I know for a fact that I'm in there, I can read the posts, I got a message saying I had gained access to it. And I know that Alisae confirms that I'm not stuck there. So I assume that it's only for one day.

Why would you suddenly leave the tower after one day?

All the previous tenancies have only been for one day. I agree that it's a bit weird because in that case gerry was actively choosing a new target, and in this case he's dead, but

SINCE ALISAE HAS CONFIRMED THAT THE FINAL RESIDENT IS NOT PERMANENTLY STUCK THERE

and

SINCE I KNOW I AM IN THAT NEIGHBOURHOOD RIGHT NOW

, I assume it is only gonna last for this, the Day after gerry's death.

Frog you really know how to make me wanna shout at you I'm sorry.

[Fenchurch]

I honestly find it hard right now to work out which of dave or Boon is more likely to be scum. From reading the neighbourhood, I thought dave, because he seems to just ignore so much game relevant info. Shortly after dave claimed in the thread to have redirected sheep, gerry reveals to him in the thread that he was roleblocked by the neighbourising action.

gerry also spends while telling dave that NAR doesn't apply to the gerry->dave->sheep interaction since gerry's and dave's actions don't conflict, and gerry also confirmed that Alisae says his neighbourise will actually fall under the 'block' section if there is a conflict. Yet dave came into a game thread in 3678 apparently still not sure about this.

gerry also tells each new neighbour 'I was told to trust you', not sure if that means anything.

[Fenchurch]

It becomes visible at the beginning of day, and disappears at beginning of next day.
Unfortunately having access removed means I don't know what (if anything) gerry might have posted about the last 4 hours or so of night.

I'm not sure what your'e proving here. I'm pretty sure dave is just describing what happened to him - it's true, he got access at the end of N2, and lost access at the end of N3. But reading gerry's role, I'm pretty sure he could have chosen to keep someone on in the neighbourhood, he just didn't.

[Fenchurch]

DEAD GERRY WHY THE EFF WOULD YOU ROLEBLOCK FEN

Yeah that's true. I didn't actually consider that, since scum killed away from hiplop's target, but if they hadn't then that would have been crazy annoying.

[Fenchurch]

LOL WTF

I mean, seriously, why. I can't even see where this is coming from.

[Fenchurch]

I'm scum who just happened to:
* have my alignment publicly revealed
* get confirmed town to another player in a neighbourhood, which a 3rd player can also see
* got roleblocked last night when there is, most likely, only one other scum alive.

And as far as I can tell this is WHY you think I'm scummy, because nobody has given any other damn reason.

[Fenchurch]

Fen 2 of those are easily explained by godfather

If you’re godfather you’d WANT it revealed — TWICE — that you are town so you can exactly WIFOM us with this

Well, I'm not a godfather, and I didn't get a choice in whether I got investigated, and whether hebi put me in her neighbourhood. She didn't even know that there would be that reveal, since it was triggered by the True Love effect - it wasn't in her role PM.

And I got blocked last night. I'm not sure what your theory is there, but whatever it is, I know that the simple and truthful answer is that I'm not scum and that I got neighbourised by gerry last Night and therefore I was blocked.

I'm just so confused about how people keep thinking I'm scum despite all these things, and NEVER giving any reason that is based on my play and which therefore I could talk about.

I bring back the they knew Sleepy’s role, and redirected it to Fen.

Nope - gerry was confused by this too, because he thought that hebi deliberately targeted Sleepy on N1 because she would want to neighbourise a town read of hers. In fact she didn't submit on N1 and her action was randomised (she reveals this in gerry's neighbourhood). hebi also said in that neighbourhood that her intention was to try and target a scumread, because she had the power to roleblock her neighbour. gerry didn't read this though, because after she died he continued to obsess about that she must have chosen Sleepy.

[Fenchurch]

Oh this clears fen

I SAID THAT!

I'm sorry... but like I said, it's pretty frustrating when it feels like people are just ignoring the evidence that I'm giving instead of actually engaging with it.

And yes - if I'm partnered scum then I wouldn't need to have made a kill, but:
a) hebi didn't seem to have received any item from sheep which sheep claimed that she would have
b) sheep was almost obviously scum by all of his play throughout D3.

[Fenchurch]

I think I would rather hip suicides tomorrow since tonight I can target him again to do the Elite Bodyguard thing, which gives us another chance to kill scum in the Night if we don't get them with the lynch.

Surely if hiplop refuses to suicide tomorrow then town just lynch him?

I guess then town loses a lynch if hiplop is town. But that seems like he wouldn't do that if he's town.

[Fenchurch]

We could just L-1 either Dave or Hippo and forget the suicide thing

Yeah this is fine too.

VOTE: hiplop

[Fenchurch]

UNVOTE:

[Fenchurch]

WTF