Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Aneninen

Not sure I can trust you after our other game!

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: ffery

Hello!

[Wickedestjr]

hi guys!

Hi!

There's buddy number one

You think two partners would start off the exact same way, notscience?

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Aneninen

Not sure I can trust you after our other game!

What happened in your other game?

Anen and I were scum together. He played really well and even showed many of the town tells that I look for, so I think I'm going to have a tough time reading him.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, you're going to need to hone your sarcasm sense if you have any hope of reading me thing game.

So you're saying that wasn't serious?

...bleh

[Wickedestjr]

Vinkah are you new to this game?

[Wickedestjr]

How so? And how does that make you feel about Vinkah?

[Wickedestjr]

How so? And how does that make you feel about Vinkah?

How do you feel about Vinkah?

I have a very slight town read on him right now. His point against you is null imo, but I can see where he's coming from and it looks like he's trying to start helpful conversation. I'm inclined to believe that scumVinkah wouldn't voice disagreement with another player's read in his first serious post of the game. This town read would be stronger if he hadn't been so easily swayed by ffery to change his mind;

you jumped right into the middle of the page 1 sparring match, and did so with a light and freeflowing feel. You're relatively new to MS. IME new-ish scum players aren't that spontaneous. If your posts had happened on page 2 or 3 I wouldn't have gotten the same sort of townfeel from it. following on that with the first actual poke at game content was also town-looking.

flip side, new scum could see banter and try to engage to ease in early (although that would be based on the personality of said person) rounding it off with a heaping lob of a question.

splitting hairs

i think yours makes more sense though.

This came ten posts after he said he disagreed with ffery.

[Wickedestjr]

Your hope of your friends being town means you're probably scum manipulating them already.

it's fairly standard for Tammy to immediately reach out to people she knows/wants to work with at the start of the game. do you have any scum reads outside of her?

This is a weird question for someone with no scum reads to ask...

[Wickedestjr]

Feign interest and scumhunting. As scum, for me, it's easy to focus on the game because I have a clearly defined goal (e.g. fool players X, Y and Z into thinking you are town). As town, you have no such goal. You can't simply act town... you have to be town, help the town and find scum on your own. I have no idea what alignments of the other players are, so I have no direction with which to follow.

As scum, would you ever entertain the thought of acting uninterested and policy-voting on page 4 just to go against your meta?

[Wickedestjr]

This is a weird question for someone with no scum reads to ask...

I don't think he's scum for it, I just think he's on the wrong track: he's calling Tammy scum for something I know she does at least as town and smth I'd expect her to do alignment regardless.

the entire idea is to get him to push someone else.

it also serves to get him to produce alignment-relevant content bc the Tammy reasoning is something I could easily enough see someone who doesn't have experience with Tammy pushing regardless of alignment.

If the idea was to get him to push someone else, then why not just explain that you disagree with his vote? Asking him who his other suspects are doesn't seem to accomplish the goal of getting him to move his vote. The question just felt strange to me because you hadn't provided any scum reads but you were asking Gnome for more scum reads after he'd already given one.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Also, if he voted Tammy for something that you think is null, why are you making an effort to get him to switch?

[Wickedestjr]

Sneaking in a couple of posts during work, please hold

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Aneninen

What a defense!
It sounds in my mind like this: "okay, experienced-looking players are forming a town block and starting to go after RC. It's time to make the others keep away from that wagon. Before it reaches a lynch."

This is a stretch. Also, the implication is that Vinkah is defending his scum buddy, so this point kind of revolves around RC being scum. Yet you opted to stay off the RC bandwagon, perhaps to avoid looking opportunistic?

This post doesn't make sense at all. You named four players as possible scums and called two of them town next. I might believe that it was genuine if you had posted simply "Cheetory and Aneninen".
Oh wait, it still doesn't add up. There was no case against any of us at all. You haven't even interacted with us before.

It's pretty clear that Vinkah named four players that had voted or expressed support for the RC bandwagon. You weren't in the brackets because you only expressed support. The fact that you missed this makes me believe that you're not actually trying to figure things out.

[Wickedestjr]

This town read would be stronger if he hadn't been so easily swayed by ffery to change his mind;

That only strengthens the town read for me: if he stood his ground, his scum motivation could be generating content, trying to get town read by fighting someone, etc.

That's what I thought at first, but the abrupt change of mind made me think he

wasn't

interested in fighting about it. Still null for me...

It turns out that my sneaking skills are not so good, sorry :/

No worries, real life comes first. I was just afraid you bailed on us.

[Wickedestjr]

notscience and Layla are comfortable town reads for me.

Am I the only one that thought Gnomeo's entry post was townish? There is nothing about his post that reads as scum trving to fit in / fly utr.

Anen's still my top suspect at this point. But i think Nacho could be scum too: feels like he's trying to avoid making a splash early on... Page eight guess: Anen/Cheeto/Nacho?

I haven't played with Tammy in a long time, but I do remember her obvtowning as town in both of our past games. It worries me a little bit that I'm not town reading her yet, but I will give her time.

I need sleep now.
good night mafiascum

[Wickedestjr]

I did? I told him when I asked him that question why I disagreed with it.

You're right - my mistake.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the second question. his reasoning re: Tammy is something that almost certainly won't lead anywhere, hence it's pointless to pursue it.

Okay, I see what you're saying.

[Wickedestjr]

What a defense!

It sounds in my mind like this:

"okay, experienced-looking players are forming a town block and starting to go after RC. It's time to make the others keep away from that wagon. Before it reaches a lynch."

This is a stretch. Also, the implication is that Vinkah is defending his scum buddy, so this point kind of revolves around RC being scum. Yet you opted to stay off the RC bandwagon, perhaps to avoid looking opportunistic?

Note the highlighted part.

I read the highlighted part. Is that supposed to be a disclaimer for stretchy logic? And you don't deny that your vote was a stretch?

No, it was not clear for me.

Then I don't think you made an effort to actually figure it out.

By the way, it's good to know how easily you can jump on a wagon which has just gained momentum shortly before.

I'm not going to avoid voting my top suspect just because three other people are...

Either my wagon has been made by the scums as a counter to RedCoyote or it's a Chainsaw because of my Vinkah read.

This is ridiculous. I have trouble believing that you believe any of this could be true.

implosion, Vinkah, Layla, Wickedestjr – any of them could be scum. I'd bet for Layla/Wicked in the first line.

Yet you're still voting Vinkah...

[Wickedestjr]

*Actually noone CARES about my reads apart from calling pigeon poop every single thing I do.*

Thanks but I can easily recognize this. Aneninen#The_Regardless_Of_Card

Who is calling "every single thing" pigeon poop? My vote for you was entirely based on your Vinkah attack. I can't remember anyone else attacking "every single thing" either. PLEASE, tell us who his guilty of doing this.

If I don't have time to figure out who the scums amongst all those votes and the shadows-ers are (and most probably you're not giving me time for that), someone will be able to examine this game phase later. And I bet it shall reveal plenty of things.

Um you have four votes... Don't use your bandwagon as an excuse to not scum hunt.

Are you town reading everyone that has ignored or town read you?

[Wickedestjr]

Right now I'm trying to figure out if Anen would act this ridiculous as scum. His early defeatist attitude is something I usually see from inexperienced players... but Anen isn't inexperienced. Wth Anen, are you seriously worried about getting lynched right now? Do you usually see early bandwagons immediately go to lynch?

Anen is very capable as scum, but savvy regardless. Part of me thinks he wouldn't do this as scum, but his reaction is just plain bizarre if he's town...

[Wickedestjr]

ffery, what do you make of Cheeto's misrecollection? It seemed like you made a good point against him. But after reading your 209, it feels like you're more interested in explaining

your

behavior to

him

rather than figuring out if he is honest in misremembering.

[Wickedestjr]

You must have realized that I'm without any allies in this game, however, plenty of players are after me because of little to none things.

Okay, what do you mean when you say you have no allies? This is not something I realized, I don't understand it.

At this point noone I think would care about my thoughts.

That's not true and I think you know it's not true.

Again. Compare the sheer amount of my content with the amount of votes and fos-es. Many of those arrived while I was not posting at all.

This doesn't mean anything.

[Wickedestjr]

I hate it when people talk past me.

What?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked.
Twisting everything I post so as to scumread me - that would happen.

Ughh... if your current separation from a computer is preventing you from legitimate responses, then I can wait. I have no idea what your talking about here and I don't feel like any of my comments have been addressed - starting to become frustrated with this conversation...

As I said before, nobody is twisting everything you post.

[Wickedestjr]

"ffery what do you think of this thing that cheeto did"
"wicked I'm right here why aren't you talking at me about it"
"ffery pls answer"
"wicked. I'm. right. here."
"ffery pls"
">:C"
":o"
"sdkjgdkjhgfkjhgkfhdgkjdfg"

I asked ffery a question and she immediately answered.

You said you misremembered and I'm still trying to figure out if I believe you. If I could think of a question that would help me make that determination, I would have asked it by now. But "I misremembered" is a pretty straightforward defense - I'm not sure how to probe you on this any further.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm pretty sure this is the first game he and I have played together. he modded the first game that nacho and I played as a hydra. It was a pretty memorable game, but it was a while ago, and I don't know if he had much feel for which of us was posting what in that game.

Yeah I think this is the first time we've played together. I think I had something come up in real life that game, so I think I was a little bit distracted. I remember nominating town for a scummie and I remember a few townies (sangres included) had amazing reads, but everything else is pretty much a blur unfortunately... If and when I do check your meta, I will go to a more recent non-hydra game, not that one.

[Wickedestjr]

i) I realize. You're not very good at picking up when people are being entirely serious are you?

I knew you weren't being serious, I just dislike when players exaggerate things.

i) Could ask me literally about anything.
God, I'm gonna have to make so much noise before people actually start engaging me this game.

What are your thoughts on Nacho? Ever played with him?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, I have an interpretation of Cheetory's responses to me, but I'm not going to say more than I already have while you're poking at it with him.

Fair enough.

I'm inclined to believe it's a null tell. Mostly because I've played with him before and seen him blatantly misread as town. Perhaps he was just a little bit distracted this time, too...

[Wickedestjr]

Town won that scummie! It was amazing.

I saw that! I was proud to have modded/nominated it.

And yeah, you had something come up. I think you went on vacation for a week or so and came back to a game that had already been won. the final game day was really short.

That sounds familiar.

[Wickedestjr]

Prod dodge

Very busy day today, will post here tomorrow...

[Wickedestjr]

Pages 10-12

Am I the only one that thought Gnomeo's entry post was townish? There is nothing about his post that reads as scum trving to fit in / fly utr.

There's nothing about the entry post that feels like he's trying to fly under the radar minus the point where he doesn't actually do anything early game except make jokes (or make weird pushes on Tammy apparently).

-He makes a joke at a point in the game where we're all starting to get serious.
-He votes for someone that nobody else has expressed any interest in voting and demonstrates a level of confidence that makes it hard for him to back pedal.

It (still) feels more like town that doesn't care how he's perceived. I do like this point, though;

Your vote on Tammy seems weird if you're scum reading me, considering your whole case on her seems to be centered around the "Tammy is manipulating Nacho" scenario.

Wickedest’s opening feels awkward and his followup when asked about it is also awkward. His followup with notscience is also awkward. Him asking Vinkah if they’re new feels like it’s coming from a productive place. Could be fake productivity though so EHHHH.

Please explain this...


Tammy's frustration with Layla on page 11 feels genuine. I have trouble seeing Tammy-scum react in this way.

[Wickedestjr]

I also kind of feel like your angry responses to people feel too strong. Where your angry response to Zar felt like it made sense in the context, you being angry at Layla felt a lot like an unreasonably angry reaction to her asking you why you hadn’t used your vote. Especially since the way she was asking you about it felt entirely reasonable to me.

What would be the scum motivation for reacting in an unreasonably angry way?

As scum, would you ever entertain the thought of acting uninterested and policy-voting on page 4 just to go against your meta?

Well, how deep do you really want to go with this? Absolutely I would. I think I could calculate it better, however. But, and doesn't it feel like we say the same things over and over on this site, I don't want to really bring meta into it. Some days you're on, some days you're off. Sometimes happy, sometimes sad. We're not robots. Feelings matter. Emotions matter. These things change us. How we think, talk, posture...

That's deep enough.

I just wanted to make sure the answer wasn't "no". That answer would have bothered me.

[Wickedestjr]

Tammy's 381 is exactly the kind of post I'd been waiting for. She's a comfortable town read for me right now.

I was thinking Nacho was scum, but I agree that his last string feels townish. In particular, I like his posts wrt Gnomeo. If Gnomeo was town, I wouldn't expect scum-Nacho to back off from that vote so easily - the switch to Cheeto feels like a genuine progression. This is also waaaay more active Nacho than I remember from #YOLOville where he was scum.

[Wickedestjr]

And with that, I am

also

struggling with having too many town reads. It doesn't help when a scum read starts looking like town... I'm going to try to figure this out nine or ten hours from now, when it's not 2:30 am. This is my first priority tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Cheetory

His vote for Tammy feels weak/disingenuous. I don't see the scum motivation for Tammy's "unreasonably angry" reaction. This point seems off considering I had the exact opposite reaction from reading it. Also, I think it's hypocritical of Cheetory to call Tammy out for this considering he has exhibited some similar frustration this game. He's been getting frustrated with players for saying he isn't as obvtown as he usually is, but IIRC, ffery is the only player that has said this, she mentioned this a long time ago, and she isn't even voting/scumreading him for it. It's quite possible I'm missing something, but I don't think I am - who is making you frustrated about this, Cheetory?

His line of questioning in 358 also feels strange if he really scum reads Tammy right now.

Anen saying that him being wagoned == scum is protecting itself feels overdramatic to me.
Gonna try to ISOdive him too.

Did this ever happen?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm actually pretty fucking satisfied with Gnomeo's posts on the last few pages. waiting to see where this goes for the time being.

Can you explain what you liked from his last few posts?

Because I'm getting genuine vibes from a lot of places and I'm constantly trying to resist the urge to townread most of them because I know the caliber of scumplay in this game is probably going to be higher than average.

Something that I actually learned from a rough pair of newbie games is that you don't need to worry about solving the whole game at once, and that sometimes taking it one read at a time can shake those hidden scum out of the bushes.

I know I'm townreading scum currently. I know that I will likely be townreading scum tomorrow. For now, the only thing I have to combat that is by being open to engaging town reads when they skip and be open to backing off scumreads early even when it leaves me nowhere to go.

It feels like you're talking to Cheetory as if he's town (even though you vote him later). Do you always do that?

I'm not saying he can't be town read that fast. It's just that in this game, at that point,

I felt like it was very unlikely

and that your read was forced(that's why I accused you of buddying).

Why is that?

[Wickedestjr]

ffery

, who's scum?

Gnomeo

, have you ever played with scum-Nacho? How good are you at reading him when he's scum?

implosion

, what are you doing with your vote?

[Wickedestjr]

I removed my vote from Anen, but I will happily return my vote if he doesn't answer my questions. I will ask them again here and this is the last time I'm asking;

1. Why did you vote for Vinkah instead of RC when your point against Vinkah revolved around the assumption that RC is scum?

2. Who has called "every single thing you do" suspicious?

3. Are you town reading everyone that has ignored or town read you?

4. Do you usually see early bandwagons immediately go to lynch?

5. What do you mean when you say you have no allies?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm starting to think Vinkah might be scum. It feels like he's just been coasting ever since the Layla/ffery RVS conversation ended and attention was off him. Granted, it's hard to be doing things when your vote is VLA, but I can't remember seeing much interest from him as of late.

ffery

, can you tell me the name of your best recent scum game? (Non-hydra, please)

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, that's fine.

And thanks for those games, I will probably look at them tonight

[Wickedestjr]

I actually have no idea who I want to vote for right now (which should also answer Wicked).

That does answer my question, but I was hoping to learn why you voted pie in the first place. I can understand if you don't feel strongly about it, but I haven't seen anything telling from that slot. Why did you choose to vote pie in particular?

If someone (really anyone who feels like it) wants to give me their opinion on like, a #1 thing I should look at/reevaluate right now, that'd be nice.

I think you should look at Cheeto's vote for Tammy. I'm curious what your thoughts on Cheeto are.

[Wickedestjr]

I was thinking Nacho was scum,

Why did you have a scum read on me before?

Until a few days ago, it just felt like you were trying to fly under the radar. I don't remember your initial posts feeling very confrontational and you were voting for somebody (Gnomeo) that wasn't posting much. It was not how I would have expected you to start off the game if you are town.

It feels like you're talking to Cheetory as if he's town (even though you vote him later). Do you always do that?

Sometimes. I don't really think that quote is an example of that.

I thought it was - you gave him scum hunting advice (which is only relevant for him if he's town).

[Wickedestjr]

Pie, thanks for the answer wrt Gnomeo.

I thought it was - you gave him scum hunting advice (which is only relevant for him if he's town).

That was me explaining where my mindset was in response to Cheetory pointing out that I seemed too comfortable with too many town reads.

Oh, it looked like Cheeto was saying that

he

had too many town reads too. Am I reading this wrong:

Because I'm getting genuine vibes from a lot of places and I'm constantly trying to resist the urge to townread most of them because I know the caliber of scumplay in this game is probably going to be higher than average.
I don't know if that makes sense and isn't just me being mumbly about foggy details, but it's like, I just get this really strong feeling that someone is playing well and I'm scared of the fact that I want to sheep you on this without having even looked at Gnomeo in detail yet q.q

?

Where is Layla?

Said nobody ever.

We were all thinking it though!

[Wickedestjr]

Faking being angry is an easy way to generate content, seem genuine and get townread.

-generate content: getting mad at Layla for not seeing that she had left her house doesn't create content, it's pretty game-irrelevant
-seem genuine: regardless of her alignment, I'm sure Tammy's telling the truth about having left her house
-get townread: I still have trouble believing that you think Tammy-scum would actually try this, if anything it creates an enemy in the person that she is getting angry with

I need to stop writing this post because I actually kind of want to scream mid-writing it. q.q

This feels like more hypocrisy. Are

you

trying to get townread by saying this? This comment doesn't really seem to fit in with its post.

[Wickedestjr]

I still like my Cheeto vote.

Beyond that, I'm (also) struggling to develop scum reads. POE made me think ffery or pie might be scum, but the meta check on ffery and pie's recent posts are starting to make me think otherwise for them too.

Anxious to hear what the recent busy bees have to say...

[Wickedestjr]

It could generate content if Tammy and Layla had a huge back and forth over it that was noisy,

Seems like a stretch.

I'm leaning increasingly that maybe I just shouldn't say anything until I'm 100% caught up and sure that I'm 100% behind every single word I say before saying it.

Well I think it's hard to be 100% certain about anything. But obviously you must have had some level of confidence in the point considering you voted her for it. If you had just off-handedly said "Tammy's anger here feels fake", then that probably wouldn't have bothered me too much. But you voted her for it, which expresses a level of strength that I have more difficulty understanding (even if it wasn't 100% certainty). What is your read on Tammy

right now

?

I can only handle having a lot of my content being called stupid or wrong so many times before I start to get frustrated.

I can't remember much of this...

It's just hard because I feel like I'm tripping over myself like a fucking idiot and everyone else is playing so well that I just feel like an asshole.

The Tammy vote is really the only aspect of your play that bothers me right now. This could be a genuine sentiment, but it hasn't felt like your frustration has been entirely with yourself (like this quote implies).

[Wickedestjr]

I've done it as scum more than I care to admit.
So.
I don't know what to tell you?

Example?

Which expresses that it was the strongest feeling that I had at the time? I asked people to talk at me about it for a reason.

I understand that it was your strongest feeling - I'm just having trouble believing/understanding why you would value it so much. What is your read on Tammy right now?

Tammy, Pie and Nacho all giving the general sentiment of calling my meta feels wrt Tammy so bad that it couldn't possibly be coming from my town game.

But that's the only example, that I can remember, of you being called wrong/misguided on something.


BTW, Cheetory, you might have missed it, but the other day I asked: have you iso-dived through Anen's posts yet? It's fine if you're haven't, I'm just curious what you think of him too.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm just having trouble believing/understanding why you would value it so much.

I mean, I never implied that I valued it "so much", I think I've made it pretty clear that I've been struggling with finding good scum reads.

Semantics... Replace "so much" with "as much as you have" in that sentence.

Open 585: Jungle Republic

Who did you get angry with in that game?

[Wickedestjr]

Who did you get angry with in that game?

pisskop.

Thanks, I'll check it out

Semantics... Replace "so much" with "as much as you have" in that sentence.

I don't think it is semantics though q.q
Like. I don't feel like I was scumreading Tammy for that as hard as you're saying I was. It felt more like a lead to me. >.>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I don't feel like I'm saying you're scum reading Tammy as much as you think I'm saying you are. You seemed to find it more voteworthy than anything else - which is strong enough for me to question it.

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up today

[Wickedestjr]

Just finished catching up.

Who did you get angry with in that game?

pisskop.

Thanks, I'll check it out

I checked it out. It's enough for me to understand where you're coming from wrt the forced anger point.

Unvote

[Wickedestjr]

So, by all means, make the wagon on me happen, because I'm definitely playing the worst out of everyone in this game atm and it might even be informative, but just don't be expecting great things out of me when a dogpile is happening on me haha.

:/

This is one of those town pings that I would have ignored in forest fire. I'm not really sure what to do about it now.

I'm not sure if I believe that you're town reading this. IIRC, he has made several comments of this nature but it's only

this one

that gives you second thoughts? I would love if you could explain this town ping that you're seeing.

Also, what do you think of Anen's similar comment(s)? Or do you think Anen's comments are different in some way?

[Wickedestjr]

I really like this train of thought. It's well explained. Wicked has a way of really talking in such a way that strikes me as believable and approachable vis-a-vis a town mindset.

What a nice comment to read, thanks a lot! I've tried improving my articulation over the years.

Where is Layla?

Said nobody ever.

I'll be busy till Friday so I'll be back at Friday.

I don't care for this post.

Can you explain why you think Layla would say this, if scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Anyway, I have kinda skimmed some but i've seen people mention things about not having a good scum read and I wonder if there is something to my suspicion that this could be multi factional of some kind. :/

I didn't think mini normal games could have multiple factions... or are you suggesting an SK?

[Wickedestjr]

If the previous one, Fferyllt must be scum. A year ago, in another game she replaced in and at that time I'd been wagoned. (It rarely happens to me as town on Day1 but that was another example.) She derailed my wagon becasue he thought "it was clear that the town was on its way to a mislynch.) My gamestart was

very

similar to that game. (Yes, I did it intentionally.) Why hasn't she realized the same thing?

Game name?

Implosion is a next guess. In his 198 he expressed this:

"In fact, there are at least *seven* people who have either voted you or expressed suspicion! You know for a fact that many of them must be town, and townies expressing suspicion towards you are doing so for genuine (if possibly not correct) reasons."

This is a reasoning I know

very well

from IRL situations (not games, real situations!) – it shows evil intent which has a clear goal: wipe someone out of a complany/workplace/community/etc. (Implosion: I'm not calling you evil; it's a game and I've done things like this before too.)

Can you explain this in more detail please? I don't understand.

If it's a Multiball, I guess all of the scums are either ending up on the wagon or shadowing it. In this case, they may think something like "I'm not sure whether Aneninen belongs to the other faction but it is worth a try."

This seems inconsistent. Originally, you called your attackers suspicious for their illegitimate votes. But now you think it's possible that scum are genuinely scum hunting if it's a multiball setup? It looks like you just want criticize your voters, whatever the case may be.


I have a lot more to ask/say later tonight.

[Wickedestjr]

I had time for one more post.

(1) it happened a long time ago but as far as I can remember, I found Vinkah disturbing, pointed it out and I thought I might be able to join RedCoyote later if noone agreed with me about Winkah.

This doesn't really answer my question. You found Vinkah disturbing because it felt like he was trying to get the pressure off of RC. This point is absolutely meaningless if RC is town. So it doesn't make sense for you to vote RC only if no-one agreed with you about Vinkah.

(2) Originally I meant eg. Implosion, Vinkah and you, Wicked. Now, I could extend it to a couple of other players, starting with those who haven't needed any posts from me to vote for me.

I just read through their isos. We each gave one reason for voting you - not sure how you can call that 'attacking everything'.

(5) Scums (unless they're really, really bad or have slipped) have "allies": players who are pushing another wagon, soft-defending, etc. Townies don't have things like that.

IIRC, you had four votes when you said that you had no allies. So eight people weren't voting for you...

[Wickedestjr]

It was this game:

here's his iso in the game I played with him.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

he was putting reads into the game from the get-go.

reading through his early posts in this game, be picks at posts, but doesn't put down actual reads nearly so quickly.

Ah I missed this. Thank you

[Wickedestjr]

Thoughts;

-Something about RC's continued loyalty to his notscience vote feels townish - for some reason, I think that he wouldn't stick to that vote all day as scum. The read seems genuine. I don't like that he's expressed suspicion of Layla for her inactivity, but everything else I've seen from him looks good.

-I recently realized that Layla is probably an alt. Layla, am I right? Can't say why I think that at this time, but it would mean she is more capable of exhibiting the early game town tells than most other "Goon" players. This revelation + the lack of any recent town telling put her in neutral territory for me right now.

-It feels like Vinkah has been coasting. In particular, page 22 feels like him facilitating conversation from the backseat rather than contributing to it on his own. Vinkah, what are your thoughts right now?

-Regardless of Anen's alignment, I don't like Cheetory's vote for him - it feels opportunistic. In particular, I have issue with his first point;

i) This is more of a confusion thing than something scummy,

but I find it strange that Anen goes on and on about how scummy people's OMGUSing is at the start of the game

and by the end of his ISO he's literally blanket OMGUSing his entire wagon composition. I just don't really understand how that works. Lol.

The bolded comment is just a blatant exaggeration. I don't know why Cheetory would exaggerate this, if he's town. Is it the comfort of attacking a popular scum read? The safety of targeting a partner? Or just scum not reading carefully? The vote itself also feels like an unnaturally abrupt development, which confuses me because I like the vote choice.

Also, although fery didnt outline her reasonings behind why my posts last night didn't sit well I can see the thought process behind that.

She's pretty town.

I have a little voice in my head wondering if tammy is scum.

I want to ignore this post because I'm town and I know I'm town and I think I've been pretty transparent.

Then as I want to skip past it, I know I'm going to get crap for ignoring it because TOWN TAMMY WOULD NEVER DO THAT.

So, this is me, acknowledging that you're saying I might be scum and calling you silly for it.

I like this post.

the shade though.
can we lynch Anen?

Yes, you can. You'll get plenty of information out of that lynch. Especially after the first Nightkills (whether it's a Multiball or not) and after the first flipped scum.

I don't like this one.


I (still) like the Anen bandwagon. I'm not crazy about the people on his bandwagon, but I'm even more 'not crazy' about Anen's play and I think that Anen's partners would be bussing him right now if he is scum. There are too many bizarre posts that I can't see the town mindset behind. (See 617 and 620). The VT claim is a plus as well. I want to see what he has to say about my last few posts, though. TL;DR- I support his lynch, but I'm not ready for a hammer just yet.

[Wickedestjr]

@Cheetory
You mean this:

False.
A sarcastic excuse for doing nothing for six hours, then spamming the thread.
VOTE: Anen

Ick? Preemptive OMGUS?

?

-Anen doesn't call implosion scummy for this specifically
-This is the only mention of OMGUS until very recently
-Doesn't seem to match your description of him going "on and on about how scummy people's OMGUSing is at the start of the game"

[Wickedestjr]

It's not like I didn't fucking say that I was more just confused by it than anything but okay whatever say that it's the crux of my case and stuff even though it's clearly not the case. Gj.

I never advertised it as anything more. And I'm not going to ignore something that looks like an exaggeration just because you have other/stronger points against him.

What a defense!
It sounds in my mind like this: "okay, experienced-looking players are forming a town block and starting to go after RC. It's time to make the others keep away from that wagon. Before it reaches a lynch."

This post doesn't make sense at all. You named four players as possible scums and called two of them town next. I might believe that it was genuine if you had posted simply "Cheetory and Aneninen".
Oh wait, it still doesn't add up. There was no case against any of us at all. You haven't even interacted with us before.

These clearly arem't also expressing that same sentiment either in an indirect way!

You're right. Nowhere does Anen imply that people are OMGUSing him in these quotes... These are

him

OMGUSing his voters, if anything.

We can discuss this when you're not drinking. I need to sleep very soon.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm pretty sure he was suspicious of these people and declared it as such and then basically gave the implication that they were suspect for suspecting him because he suspected them.

I don't think so. As I said before, he mentioned OMGUS once. It's not something he went on and on about. He said;

Either my wagon has been made by the scums as a counter to RedCoyote or it's a Chainsaw because of my Vinkah read.

This quote doesn't make the implication that he thinks people are OMGUSing him. He makes the implication that scum are chainsaw defending RC or Vinkah.

Shit on me for a single thing that I wasn't even calling him scummy for instead of actually analyzing anything I'm actually saying.

-You didn't explicitly call him scummy for it, but you did include it in a list of "three general things that are bugging you about Anen's play".
-This wasn't my only reason for not liking your vote. But you have chosen to criticize just one of my reasons just like I criticized one of your's.
-I said this before and I'll say it again. If I see something scummy, then it doesn't matter the size of the something that I find scummy, I'm going to call you out on it. Why shouldn't I? If we ignored all the little things, we would never catch scum in this playerlist.

Am I supposed to skim your posts for the 'big picture' or do you want me to read every single word you write? I'm going to do the latter as I've always done when I play mafia. It's not like I said "Oh my goodness, Cheeto's confirmed scum let's lynch him already!!!". I noticed something scummy and I commented on it. I'm doing what my role pm told me to do. PLEASE don't give me this frustrated/rude response. I'm playing the friggin game, man.

[Wickedestjr]

also also I disagree with the first point in Cheetory's 559 being an exaggeration. the logic there is correct. Anen was wrong to push implosion vote on him as an "OMGUS" if it was done entirely bc he had pushed him first (as opposed to having reason to specifically think implosion's vote on him was disingenuous), and even then he outright admitted it wasn't a strong point.

The exaggeration is that Cheeto said Anen went 'on and on about it', trying to make the contradiction appear much stronger than it actually was. Anen wasn't even certain that implosion had OMGUS'd him - he simply suggested the possibility and then never brought it up again until much much later.

[Wickedestjr]

So you're saying it wasn't anything more than pointing out an exaggeration but then you go on to say this:

Is it the comfort of attacking a popular scum read? The safety of targeting a partner? Or just scum not reading carefully? The vote itself also feels like an unnaturally abrupt development, which confuses me because I like the vote choice.

Which basically implies that you thought it was scummy, which really begs the question of why you would do that if you knew it was a non-point that I wasn't even really calling scummy

I think it's scummy, I don't believe I ever said otherwise. It's not a strong scum tell on its own, but it was strange enough that I wanted to comment.

I don't know that it's a non-point.

and why you would call my vote abrupt

In your first post that you try to sort him, you vote for him. And most of the reasons that you use you could have used a long time ago. Yet you joined the bandwagon as soon as it was starting to rebuild. It was literally your first post after Nacho and notscience joined the bandwagon.


I already told you that I don't like when people exaggerate. I think it's a form of deceit. We're already playing in a game where scum are lying their butts off and we have to figure out who they are. So if you're town, you're not helping me by saying what I believe is an exaggeration.

[Wickedestjr]

What were the other points?
That it was abrupt?
Oh wait.
I totally definitely ignored that here:

I hadn't read that post yet...

Yes, I might be coming across like a dick right now, but the way you're talking about this supposed scumread on me for my Anen read looks fuckin' shifty to me. Like you're moving the goalposts every single time you respond to me.

I'm not sure what 'moving the goalposts' means, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not doing it. I posted one paragraph explaining why I didn't like your Anen vote and I think my argument has been pretty consistent on this page...

Why do you think I would call you out for this if I'm scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Like, you're picking at me over a semantic issue of "well Anen didn't say this that much", which is honestly probably fair, but like, ...

If you think my point is 'honestly probably fair', then why have you been criticizing it and calling me shifty this entire page?

I wasn't even calling him scummy for it.

No, but you did include it in a list of things that bothered you about him. It felt like the point was added to contribute to your vote.

What's my scum motivation for exaggerating a non-point? That I'm trying to make him look bad?

Possibly. You could also be just trying to come up with your own reason to justify your vote.

How can you flipflop around about the size of it if you're trying to use it to paint my entire vote as scummy and abrupt because the reasoning isn't there?

I don't believe I ever flip-flopped about the size of it. I think it's scummy, but it's not (and never has been) something that I think is a strong scum tell.

[Wickedestjr]

Also.
On an unrelated note, sorry for being a dick last night.
I should just not let myself go on mafiascum when I'm drunk and in a bad mood. >.> Calling you dumb was uncalled for.

It's fine, don't worry about it.

[Wickedestjr]

You asked me to ISOdive him and I did? Hence why I have a stance on him now where I didn't before?

For what it's worth, you said you were going to ISOdive Anen and then never did- I was reminding you of something that you already planned to do.

I just think it's interesting that virtually nothing from Anen was worth commenting on in your initial read through, but an ISOdive uncovered some points/questions that suddenly made him voteworthy (at a time when the bandwagon was rebuilding).

I expressed what I felt was the general sentiment of his first few posts in the game, which was that the people scumreading him were scums OMGUSing him.

Okay, well I have explained why I don't think Anen was saying this.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm done with this Cheeto.

I said I didn't like your vote. I explained why. I know that I'm not scum trying to misrep you. If you want to think that I am, then go ahead. (I don't care anymore.) But your reasoning for thinking that I'm scum misrepping you is garbage.

I just hope that everyone else sees that.

This has become a long frustrating argument that is consuming my Saturday, not progressing the game in any way, and probably going to kill some interest in this game for others. I'm worried that it's not close to being over. I feel like you're misrepping me and it is incredibly frustrating that this conversation is still going on (over one point that I don't even feel that strongly about).

I will explain my point one more time, for everyone else, and it's the last time I'm doing so;
Cheeto voted Anen. I saw something in one of his comments that felt like a significant exaggeration (I still feel that way). I think Cheeto was unnaturally quick to decide that Anen was voteworthy.

He could be scum trying to make Anen-town look scummy. He could be scum trying to get on the Anenscumlynch quickly so that he can look good the next day. I don't know, I

just

felt like the point was misrepping Anen. That is all there is to it.

[Wickedestjr]

I enjoy back and forths (our back and forth a few days ago was good). It's just that this one didn't seem to be progressing at all. It felt like you immediately assumed I was scum misrepping you before trying to understand my actual thought process. I felt like you were misrepping me. That's why I called it a waste - that comment wasn't meant personally and I hope not to have offended you. It's just that I have other things that I want/need to do today and I was hoping to have started a few hours ago. I plan to come back to this later.

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah I

seriously

doubt that's a mafia kill - there were too many people suspecting him yesterday. I agree with Tammy, the mafia kill was probably saved in some way.

*rereading*

[Wickedestjr]

I think if Cheetory were scum he would possible be more cautious about this tendency, make sure his responses would be more measured and would very possibly be more bullish.

If he were an inexperienced player, then I would generally agree. But he's not and I think this is something that he was perfectly aware of. e.g. Regardless of his alignment, I'm sure he wrote 471 knowing that it would sound townish. Do you disagree?

I already told you that I don't like when people exaggerate. I think it's a form of deceit. We're already playing in a game where scum are lying their butts off and we have to figure out who they are. So if you're town, you're not helping me by saying what I believe is an exaggeration.

This is probably a harder line to take than is productive: people exaggerate all the time for rhetoric, they do it because it's fun, they do it because it feels right at the time. I sincerely doubt you'll find too many scum just because their language is too strong.

I understand that. Exaggeration, alone, was not my issue. Note that he exaggerated my conversation with ffery early day 1, but I never called him scummy for it. But yes, when he exaggerates a reason for a vote, on a player that has already demonstrated over-reactions, on a wagon that already has lots of support, I'm going to call him out for it.


Nacho, you kept your vote on Anen, while he was at L-1, despite appearing to have changed your mind. Please explain.

[Wickedestjr]

No idea who I want to vote right now...

[Wickedestjr]

And you were comfortable leaving him at L-1 when several players off of the wagon suspected him too? What's wrong with unvoting?

[Wickedestjr]

I didn't like RedCoyote's hammer vote.

-He expressed a decent amount of uncertainty as he was casting the vote.
-He said that he thinks, "Ane has some directions we may look at tomorrow regardless as to what alignment he flips." But this is a very weird comment for him to make when his top three "Anen, notscience, Layla" was completely different from Anen's top three. I'm curious what your answer to ffery's question will be.
-This comment:

If we can get out of the day with good discussion, no claims except for a VT and some clear input from the person being lynched... that's about as successful a D1 as town can have.

feels like setup for a known mislynch.

Vote: RedCoyote

[Wickedestjr]

Tammy, how strong is your town read on implosion?

notscience, what are your thoughts right now? (Are you caught up?)

[Wickedestjr]

Thanks notscience

Tammy, how strong is your town read on implosion?

notscience, what are your thoughts right now? (Are you caught up?)

Unfortunately none of my reads are super strong. I was so busy and so behind most of day one that I don't feel like I had any real handle on my reads. I'm probably going to pass out soon, but tomorrow I'll have some time to sit down with this game and reassess what little reads I did have.

Fair enough.

(Yesterday was bleh, will catch up tonight)

[Wickedestjr]

plus, I think (especially given what ffery brought up re: his meta earlier) he sure as hell could have acted more confident if he is actually scum here.

I’ll admit, that’s a really good point.

neither is the second thing. I'm seeing it as him having his own scum reads, but being willing to factor into account people's interactions with the Anen wagon if he flipped town here. I don't see what you think is weird about it.

I’m not one to look at a player’s reads just because they’re confirmed town. I read everything that everyone says and seek help sometimes (case in point my question towards Tammy), but for the most part I develop my reads independently… Perhaps this is just a play style difference, but I'm having trouble understanding it.

I mean, Wicked, you're essentially telling me to not be straight with you. You know what I think is straight? Telling people that a D1 lynch where you get no claims other than one VT, lynching said VT, and having them flip VT is a pretty good result for the town. That's sensible. It's not ideal, no, but that's a pretty good outcome, all things considered. Every time I find myself in a position to say that (it doesn't happen every game due to themes, early claims, early hammers, individual reads, etc), it's inevitable someone comes after me for that with some version of that same line.

I’m not telling you to be dishonest. For what it’s worth, I agreed with your comment that day 1 was a success even if it was a mislynch. I just didn’t understand why you had to make the comment in the first place… It made me think that you worried about receiving criticism for your hammer vote.

what do you make of the exchange between ffery/me starting from 458?

I’ve never seen an RC-scum game before. My experience with RC is swag town where I correctly strong-town read him from the start. I’ve heard a few people say that he has a strong scum game and I’m usually very cautious in reading players like that, but I still got strong town vibes from him there. For whatever reason, his posting here doesn’t give me that equally strong feeling of genuineness. I should check those scum games that ffery posted…


Side note: I was fully expecting RC-scum to vote for notscience and the vote for Vinkah confuses me... Especially considering I

just

made a comment about how RC's loyalty to his notscience suspicion felt like a town tell.

[Wickedestjr]

Last comment regarding the Gnomeo kill;

He wasn't super scummy, but nobody else was either. If I were to rank the playerlist based on how much suspicion they received, I think Gnomeo would have been near the top. He was probably mislynchable. notscience is the only death that would have surprised me more considering the attention he was getting at the end of the day.

[Wickedestjr]

VOTE: Wicked

I feel like he's creating strong reads in himself, but he's constantly asking for other people's reads, and it looks like he's trying to tailor them to the situation.

This is awful, feels fake, and I don't think you've actually read.

I have only one strong read at this point and I'm pretty sure I haven't disclosed it yet, so not sure where you're getting that impression. Furthermore, I haven't been 'constantly asking for other people's reads', that's an exaggeration and not a scum tell (even if I

had

created strong reads)... I will ask for a read now, though: what do you think of Vinkah?

I have no idea what your last comment means.

Unvote. Vote: Boonskiies

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I will be V/LA from August 8th through 12th. I will not touch a computer, but might be able to make the occasional phone posts...

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like that verb. What's confusing about it? Please elaborate.

I was starting to believe that you might be scum and then you did something that I would really not expect you to do if you are scum: you voted for Vinkah instead of notscience. You already expressed suspicion of notscience yesterday, implosion was voting for notscience, other players have already expressed interest in a notscience bandwagon, notscience hasn't even acknowledged the vote on him, I seriously doubt that you and notscience are partners, and the general consensus seems to be that Vinkah is town. I like your vote and I don't see the scum motive behind it. If you were scum just trying to mix things up, then a vote for one of Anen's 578 top suspects would have also made more sense...

I'm confused because I'm leaning town for nine players right now.

[Wickedestjr]

@pieguyn-

I had issue with that part for the same reason that I found the third part scummy. It just felt like preparation for the criticism that a known mislynch might provoke. It allows him to defend today with, "well we were wrong, but at least we can look at his reads from yesterday" if he needs to. It's certainly possible that I'm just pursuing insignificant play style differences, but the wording of his hammer post made me feel like he was worried about catching flak for it...

[Wickedestjr]

I don't think anyone trusts me on Mafiascum, Wicked.

Nevertheless,

VOTE: Vinkah
That's not 100×100 pixels.

in every game ive played on mafiascum, i found an opening post that made my gut go nuts. sometimes i ended up TRing them later but it was scum every time

this is that post

VOTE: Aneninen

You need to know of any claimed night actions, but you don't need to check the OP for dead players and alignments? Hmm...

Are you scum?

[Wickedestjr]

ehhh

I don't really agree this as big a deal as you think it is; as I said before, I would expect taking Anen's reads at the end into account would be a fairly standard thing. I think we're disagreeing on this in principle, though.

How big a deal did I say it was?

Honestly, it's not the kind of thing that I see much of IME. And even for someone that

does

like taking the dead guy's contributions into account, I don't see why it's necessary to express that intention before seeing the flip, because it's completely irrelevant if the flip is scum (which he saw as a decent possibility).

[Wickedestjr]

Who takes a post like that on blind faith?

This is a very good question, especially considering the fact that nobody was even talking about him on the page where you fake-claimed the vig shot. Seems like that would be something to talk about if it were true.

His reaction

was

pretty unusual.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Soft-spoken

[Wickedestjr]

Anen was lynched d1 and flipped town.

lol well that explains why i havnt seen him post. maybe i shouldnt have replaced in :3 i have so little time to catch up that i didnt even notice that. what im doing atm is keeping current since i joined and glancing back briefly when i can

Even if you do have "little time to catch up", I would think that learning who's dead and what they flipped would be your first order of business if you're town.

your logic fails so much here that if i have to spell it out im gunna facedesk

PLEASE spell it out for me. Here's a mask to cushion and protect your face upon facedesking:



It's a jousting mask!!!

[Wickedestjr]

is it fair to say ffery is slow playing?

Yes and I haven't seen anything from her that I don't think scum-her is capable of. Not sure that she would slow play if she's scum, but she's certainly not a strong town read yet.

Why did you wait to point this out until after she finally cast a vote?

[Wickedestjr]

well i didnt specifically use that term, but i feel that was the context of my conversation with ffery late D1.

You're right. I completely forgot about that...

[Wickedestjr]

@wicked enlighten us on how you think a scum-player goes about deciding who/when to push? is it usually a catastrophically uninformed post aimed at someone who isnt currently on anyone's radar? (in this case dead)

Scum want to eliminate all townies. So they will usually cast a vote with one or both of two intentions... a.) get someone mislynched or b.) appear like they're town that is interested in scum hunting. There's no clear formula to it beyond that AFAICS.

You're right about the fact that it is a rarity for scum to vote the dead guy. But you gave no indication that you were reaction testing (you even continued to act like you made a mistake). The "S-S wouldn't vote a dead player if he was scum" thought didn't pop into my head because you genuinely didn't seem to realize that Anen was dead, so it was an irrelevant thought. I thought it was near-impossible for a town-aligned player to make this mistake and that's why I eventually voted for you.

If you are saying that this was a reaction test, why should I believe you?

[Wickedestjr]

I also don't think it's him explicitly "I'll take Anen's reads into account", I think it's "I'll cross-reference these reads later and see if they make sense or not" - which is a lot more reasonable and something you would say even if you thought Anen was more likely scum (if he's scum you just don't bother).

The latter quote, if that's what he meant, sounds like something one would act on before hammering their lynch and ending the day. I checked everything that Anen said just during my standard read-through.

it was one of your reasons for voting him, so I'm assuming you considered it important enough to vote over.

I'm getting flashbacks to my interaction with Cheeto.

[Wickedestjr]

The one thing that pings slightly right now is that he's keeping options open in a game where several players are having trouble developing scumreads.

This is a fair point.

I have been trying to explore different options today, but here is where I'm at right now;

TOWN
Pretty comfortable town reads: {fferyllt, notscience, pieguyn, Tammy}

Neutral, could be scum: {implosion, RedCoyote}

Suspicious of: {Boonskiies, Nachomamma8, Soft-spoken, Vinkah}
SCUM

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Nachomamma8

I see you posting elsewhere. What's up? Still waiting on an answer to this:

And you were comfortable leaving him at L-1 when several players off of the wagon suspected him too? What's wrong with unvoting?

[Wickedestjr]

By the way, my wiki is and always has been up to date.

[Wickedestjr]

Notty - How come you asked me if I was town and when I asked you what you thought about my point about cheetory and we the purple, you didn't respond at all?

NOTSCIENCE

He's watching Pitch Perfect right now... It's probably got another hour left.

[Wickedestjr]

If you are saying that this was a reaction test, why should I believe you?

i never explicitly said that this post was a rx test, only that certain elements of my posting so far have been forced, and that notsci picked up on it. if I was rx testing in that post though, why would i give an indication of that being my intent? wouldnt that completely nullify it?

like if i said "haha just kiddint i knew he was dead all along" a few posts later... what kind of RX would that be anyways. ur not making much sense wicked :O

I'm perfectly aware of how a reaction test works. Please stop talking to me like I'm a friggin noob.

I

voted for

you

and asked YOU a question, which you have

still

blatantly failed to answer. This lesson that you're trying to teach me is not enlightening me as to why my vote for you is wrong and just looks like a distraction. I am (seriously) no closer to understanding you than I was when I first voted for you.

It's not like I post hundreds of questions a day. I asked you ONE question. I asked Boon ONE question. I asked Nacho several questions and he ignored the one that I was most interested in getting an answer to. I would normally vote for the person not answering my questions, but it's kind of impossible to vote for three people. This is absurd.

How in the world am I going to sort this game when dealing with all this ambiguousness? You keep implying that parts of your posts are reaction tests but that is ZERO help until you actually explain what was testing and what was not. Clearly I am interested in your Anen vote specifically, yet you ignored my question and started implying 'reaction test' so I don't think it was crazy for me to assume that was your defense. Now you're acting like it wasn't so I have no idea what to think.

Why can't you explain?

[Wickedestjr]

I don't think this push on SS is particularly good. I don't think the comment about Ane is alignment indicative.

Oh, wait, I forgot SS replaced Layla. I kind of want to join it now.

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah I'm a little bit frustrated. And it's because that's not the question I wanted an answer to and I think you know it's not:

I don't think anyone trusts me on Mafiascum, Wicked.

Nevertheless,

VOTE: Vinkah
That's not 100×100 pixels.

in every game ive played on mafiascum, i found an opening post that made my gut go nuts. sometimes i ended up TRing them later but it was scum every time

this is that post

VOTE: Aneninen

You need to know of any claimed night actions, but you don't need to check the OP for dead players and alignments?

Hmm...

Are you scum?

[Wickedestjr]

ah yea thank you

[Wickedestjr]

That's how it felt like you were addressing me. You were asking me really basic questions that really didn't seem relevant.

There is nothing confusing or misleading about my point against you. You just don't want to explain yourself for some reason that is beyond me...

[Wickedestjr]

at least in the context of someone who cares about a scum game. i could see some utter noob being clueless as scum and not caring. anyone that wants to win as scum would have a bit more calculation in a push than fossin a dead person dont you think?

Sure. But you're ignoring this fact: anyone that wants to win

as town

would check who's dead and what their roles were before casting a vote, don't you think?

[Wickedestjr]

relevant: if someone was scum that didnt have the capacity to make an informed push, why not just float for a few days on the "sorry i dont have time to catch up" line. why bother with a fos?

"Bothering with an FoS" demonstrates proactivity. You're competent enough to realize that proactivity is more townish than flying under the radar in catch up land.

[Wickedestjr]

ffer is probably town because she didnt try to warn her partners

What does this mean?

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: How would she warn her partners?

[Wickedestjr]

Ugh first time I decide to post as I go along and my last two questions are asked already. Sorry everyone.

I agree that this trappy behavior is unpleasant. It doesn't seem helpful enough to compensate for the frustration, ignorance, and license to act scummy that all come with it.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: How would she warn her partners?

I don't think it would be that hard. In fact I think if I were scum, some of the things I actually did here in this game would probably get partner attention.

Like what?

Is this something you would feel obligated to do as scum?

[Wickedestjr]

In this scenario he's' town and I'm scum?

If I were scum, I would have mentioned there was a distinct possibility he'd replace into the game if there was pregame talk, and there almost always is. So, as scum I would have mentioned it, and also what I know of his start play.

The distinct possibility is due to my sending him a pm about this game while it was still in sign-ups.

But, assuming I didn't do that for some reason, I would have greeted S-S similarly to how I did here, and I would probably have made a bigger deal of waving off questions about SS than I did when vincah or whoever it was asked me about him.

S-S knows what my meta-expectations are, so I'd do my best to dance through that with the right mix of cageyness and hands-off. In the previous game we played I noticed something of a lack of scummy-entrance/sort reactions, and I eventually brought it up.

If he's scum, that knowledge of my expectations might have influenced him to make this sort of entrance. But, as any alignment he likes to keep people a little off balance, so I'm not sure that's how he'd have approached it.

he's an experienced player at EM. In the last game we played, when he and Regfan exchanged resumes, Regfan was duly impressed.

If I were scum, I'd have my fingers crossed that he was replacing in as scum.

I hope he's town.

Thank you ffery, this makes a lot more sense

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, apologies if you've answered this once or a million times already, but why is notscience in your townpile?

I think you’re the first to ask actually.

Reasons why I’m town reading him-
-Early game felt carefree and very relaxed
-I actually like how several/most/all of his votes have been blatantly opportunistic
-His night kill speculation at the start of today felt genuine
-His contributions generally feel like town interest rather than scum obligation, not sure how to explain why I get that feeling

Two things from nacho make me think town. One is 764.

Can you explain why you're town reading that post?

Also, I think the reactions that you’re town reading Cheeto for are exactly the kind of reactions that he would try to fake as scum…

[Wickedestjr]

I feel like your first reason for townreading notscience is the kind\ of things that scum in a high-caliber game will HAVE to fake to have any chance at survival. An experienced player in a game with a player list like this will stick out like a sore thumb if they have a meta of acting carefree early in the game but don't.

That is exactly how I feel about

your

reasoning for town reading Cheeto...

I townread that post from Nacho because he would have essentially had to be innovative to make it as scum. As town it's certainly possible for him to make that post. As scum, he would not have any theories about the night kill (because information), so he would have to explicitly decide to lie about having a theory about it, which seems significantly less likely to happen to me. In general I see posts like that, which scum would have had to go 'out of their way' to make, as pretty strong towntells depending on context/etc.

Keep in mind: there's a possibility that Nacho is scum that didn't kill Gnomeo.

[Wickedestjr]

Yes

[Wickedestjr]

Let the phone posting commence

he showed on the tail end of wagons alot, and often ended up keeping his vote on the wagon after it started dying. not sure what to make of it as im not used to seeing that pattern.

at one point in this wagon, wicked occupied one of these two spaces... his vote ended up in no-impact spot at the end of the day. just thoughts. myt mind is wandering a lot atm

-not sure that ive been on the tail ends of wagons "a lot". Anen/Boon come to mind but that's it. I think I provided the most justification for my Anen vote and I was suspicious of Boon's predecessor for most of day 1. Did you look at anything more than votecounts? Also, I've tried starting wagons. If you're calling me opportunistic, then you're wrong.
-kept vote on wagons after they started dying? Not sure what you're referring to... Two examples please
-I would have rejoined the Anen wagon if I was ready for the day to end.

This vote makes no sense

[Wickedestjr]

I don't understand why everyone's ignoring Nacho right now. He has yet to explain his end of day 1 behavior. He's posted elsewhere. His vla supposedly ended four days ago... I'll switch my vote if nothing changes, but I think Nacho needs some more attention

[Wickedestjr]

I don't understand why everyone's ignoring Nacho right now. He has yet to explain his end of day 1 behavior. He's posted elsewhere. His vla supposedly ended four days ago... I'll switch my vote if nothing changes, but I think Nacho needs some more attention

I explained my Day 1 behavior. What issue did you have with it?

I have posted elsewhere. I'm ignoring this game because I need to find a direction and read: I am not ignoring games where all I have to do is post.

Please respond to 766

[Wickedestjr]

4) The wagon on you was bad before I realized you replaced Layla and not Cheetory.

What do you think of the reasons that have been given for voting SS?

[Wickedestjr]

And you were comfortable leaving him at L-1 when several players off of the wagon suspected him too? What's wrong with unvoting?

Sure, I didn't really think anyone would hammer in the near future.

Nothing's wrong with unvoting, but nothing's wrong with leaving the vote on either.

Not sure I believe that you didn't think someone would hammer when deadline was near and multiple players expressed intent...

[Wickedestjr]

I’ve never seen an RC-scum game before. My experience with RC is swag town where I correctly strong-town read him from the start.

Do you remember why you townread him in Swagtown?

If I had more detail to give I would have given it. As I said before: I just remember seeing several comments from him in that game that felt really genuine - even with the knowledge that he had a strong scum game, I was never paranoid about him like I usually am for strong players.

[Wickedestjr]

VOTE: Wicked

I feel like he's creating strong reads in himself, but he's constantly asking for other people's reads, and it looks like he's trying to tailor them to the situation.

This is awful, feels fake, and I don't think you've actually read.

I have only one strong read at this point and I'm pretty sure I haven't disclosed it yet, so not sure where you're getting that impression. Furthermore, I haven't been 'constantly asking for other people's reads', that's an exaggeration and not a scum tell (even if I

had

created strong reads)... I will ask for a read now, though: what do you think of Vinkah?

I have no idea what your last comment means.

Unvote. Vote: Boonskiies

Why did you vote Boon here?

Your wording on reads makes them seem strong enough where it isn't too crazy that someone is interpreting you having strong reads, and the exaggeration doesn't seem like a horrible misrepresentation of your person that serves to mislynch.

I don't like

his

vote for me... I explained what was wrong with it.

Re: strength of wording- I really don't see how my wording can be interpreted as stronger than it actually was. I'm assuming you're referencing my RC vote (that's where pie seemed to misread the strength). Rereading my RC vote, I see the phrases "dislike his hammer", "he expressed decent uncertainty", and "feels like setup for a known mislynch". I thought he was vote worthy, but nowhere did I express the confidence that you guys seem to think I did...

[Wickedestjr]

You need to know of any claimed night actions, but you don't need to check the OP for dead players and alignments? Hmm...

Are you scum?

This attack is ridiculous.

Not really... /equal-reasoning

[Wickedestjr]

I feel like pieguyn could be scum. When I actually read her iposts I feel like her points and considerations are coming from a town mindset, but they are so detached feeling. Very contained. If there's effort toward refining reads and finding scum, it's not apparent. It's incredibly low key.

I agree that she's playing an uncharacteristically weak game here if town. I think this is probably the place where I'd most like to put my vote at this very moment, but won't just to freak out Wicked.

What?

[Wickedestjr]

Geesh seven more pages? You guys are just messing with me because I'm V/LA...

I skimmed through and saw implosion's claim. I don't want to lynch a vig/SK today. Will catch up later and think about where I want my vote.

[Wickedestjr]

Soft-spoken and Pie are also town.

I'd say Nacho/notscience are the scum team. Did a scum flip on Day 1?

Seriously?

[Wickedestjr]

It's potentially notable that Nacho was the third spot on both my wagon and the eventual Anen lynch wagon.

Agreed.

Why?

Why is it notable? Because you keep moving your vote.

you said I wasn't reading you, which is a cryptic way of implying that you had soft-claimed prior to that post.

And what makes you say that?

That was my interpretation of it. Let me put it another way, if ns was really just "reaction testing", why wasn't he blunt about that after the test was over? Why did he wait until after a vig claimed to be straight about it? What did he even gain from this so-called "reaction test"? These are the questions I am asking.

---

when RC and notsci are interacting it feels like tvs, but that might just be me confbiasing

big whoop, you're townreading everyone except me anyway

P edit 2. i was thinking the same thing nacho. if hes SK we have him by the balls already. if hes not then we save ourselves a PR lynch.

This "use the SK to our advantage" crap always ends up backfiring.

RC, how does using SK to our advantage "always backfire" ?

[Wickedestjr]

ftr this is the third time I can think of this game that notsci has walked in here and blatantly postured to join the leading wagon.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

Why would he play this way as scum, though? He's been pretty blatant about it.

Do you think he's aware that he's doing it? Do you think it surprises him that he's being questioned for it?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay I've thought about the vig claim. I think it's pretty unlikely that implosion is mafia. If he is, then we will find out soon I think/hope. No idea if he is vig or SK and I actually don't really care to figure that out right now. I think there's incentive for him to aim for scum as SK and I trust that he can make one reasonable shot. He should definitely shoot tonight - two nightkills confirms him as not-mafia, it's a kill not manipulated by mafia, tonight could be his last opportunity, and it essentially gives us an extra lynch

iff

we can block another mafia kill... I don't see any problem with this idea.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't think "playing scummy to get reads based off of how people view you" excuses him from anything, if that's what you're asking.

because he does it every game?

It's part of the reason I'm townreading him. the other stuff is mostly how he's interacting with me and with his scumreads.

I'm telling you this so you won't try to lynch him after I die.

Does he do this as scum? Pretty sure I asked you or him that question earlier but it's hard for me to check right now and I don't remember figuring it out...

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote, Vote: Boon

[Wickedestjr]

I don't think "playing scummy to get reads based off of how people view you" excuses him from anything, if that's what you're asking.

because he does it every game?

It's part of the reason I'm townreading him. the other stuff is mostly how he's interacting with me and with his scumreads.

I'm telling you this so you won't try to lynch him after I die.

Does he do this as scum? Pretty sure I asked you or him that question earlier but it's hard for me to check right now and I don't remember figuring it out...

here's an iso where he was scum and didn't do an awkward entrance. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I thought I had seen a game where S-S was third party but I can't find it tonight.

Mostly, he's been town here.

Thanks for the link.

I've been having second thoughts about him since around the time he voted me. He's a town lean right now.

[Wickedestjr]

@pieguyn- you seem to think that he's pretending to be disengaged. I think he was actually disengaged. How do you make that distinction?

[Wickedestjr]

More later, g2g

[Wickedestjr]

Oh there's actually nothing else that I want to comment on...

Vinkah has a good chance of being scum, but I believe that he's busy in RL and I wouldn't want to lynch him if he is.

I'd be disappointed if notscience gets lynched today. Not seeing the argument against him...

Wouldn't whine about a Nacho or RC lynch, but I am and have been more suspicious of Boon.

[Wickedestjr]

oh and i have no meta on wicked so... wicked could be solid town if someone was willing to vouche that he doesnt have a calculated scum game. everything he has posted could easily be performed by a calculated scum

As I said before: my wiki is and has been up to date. My last scum game was my proudest.

I like to think I'm pretty good at fooling others when I'm mafia, but if I reread this game without remembering my role, it would be pretty evident to myself that I'm town here. There are clear differences, but I think they're subtle... not that this post even matters because I'm somewhat aware of those differences.

[Wickedestjr]

Hey thanks

Town or scum, sober or not, you're pretty cool too!

[Wickedestjr]

haha that was actually my inner meme-teen emerging.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pretty-cool-guy

Wow that might be the most bizarre meme I've ever seen. If I'm alive on day 3 or day 4 maybe I'll use it when everyone has forgotten

ull know if im drunk posting lol

Lol I thought I knew

[Wickedestjr]

He's null for me and I'm trying to understand why he's a top tier read for you. The big things I remember are people complimenting his transparency and him thanking them and the thanking just sounded slimy which is really strange because its a thank you but I'm kinda stuck because everyone else seems to have these reads that look a ton different then mine

I remember thanking RC for what I believe was a compliment for my articulateness. I wouldn't thank somebody for townreading me, if that's what you're saying it looks like. Can't think of what else could have given you that impression.

[Wickedestjr]

Reading

(V/LA pretty much over)

[Wickedestjr]

-I don't understand why people are town reading Boon's recent string of posts... Seems easily fake-able, I don't think he's being given enough credit here, and I think the recent reads makes more sense from scum in panic mode than town that only now cares about scum hunting.

-I strongly agree with this;

Oh pie - I think if implosion is an sk, then we're probably not going to have a three-man scum team, so Lyle wouldn't be here so soon. I don't think that empire would design a game that would put us into lylo so quickly.

-This;

First read through of RC brings out the problem of me not liking the relative ease of his votes: RC as town usually picks a fight with someone loud and town (or, at the very least, finds problems in their play), but this game he hasn't really done that at all except maybe with the vote on SS but then he ended up dropping that decently quickly.

His hammer on Anen was a slight ping because he bothered setting it up at all; I think that was a call-back to classic RC-scum worrying about being image conscious with a decently iffy move.

is a surprising change... I would like an explanation for this change at some point.


More in a sec

[Wickedestjr]

Between RC and notscience, I still prefer an RC lynch.

I want to see a full claim from RC... if I had to cast my vote

right now

, I would vote for him, but not comfortable doing so before he posts again.

While shooting tonight is not as informative as a lynch, I still think we are more likely to win if implosion uses his shot. Regardless, I'm fine with implosion making his decision tonight without telling us.

[Wickedestjr]

This deadline really snuck up on us. Snuck up on me at least.

Deadline is 3 a.m. my time. I'll be available from now until ~10 p.m. and from ~midnight until 1 or 2 a.m.

[Wickedestjr]

It surprises me that people have been calling notscience disengaged. Rereading his iso, he hasn't put much effort in, but it does feel like he's genuinely interested. I think that he'd at least be pretending to try harder if he was scum.

ffery, I can't remember you talking about notscience much, even though I get the impression you're familiar with his meta. What do you think about his bandwagon right now?

[Wickedestjr]

Why did you decide to breadcrumb rather than claim from the start?

[Wickedestjr]

Underlined doesn't really make much sense either:

Let me say one other thing, and this is kind of important:

I'm not a VT

. You can take that how you will.

This may have led me to playing too conservatively

. I don't know if I'll fully claim or not, but I do want that out there, I think, to influence y'alls decision on voting me or not.

I could understand wanting to play conservatively as a power role, but that strategy doesn't seem to match 'miller'.

Also, why did you claim "not VT" rather than miller?

[Wickedestjr]

RC, do you appear as scum when you die? Were you lying when you said you were bored with the game?

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like this claim.

Baiting the kill seems like more of a VT strategy. And conservative play is dangerous for a miller - conservative players get investigated too... The risk of getting investigated seems too high for the benefit of getting killed - it's already unlikely that scum will hit PR.

I have to go now, but I'll be thinking about this. Back in two hours-ish.

[Wickedestjr]

Back

[Wickedestjr]

Tammy is (still) town, I don't understand why she had to claim but I guess it also doesn't matter at this point

I need to think about the setup

P-edit:

u dont count

[Wickedestjr]

Y'know I'm like 95% certain Tammy is town after that claim.

And Empire's creative, I could really see him making a Role cop + Miller set up.

But I still think RC's play makes no sense if he's actually a miller. He didn't have anything to say/defend against my latest concern.

[Wickedestjr]

wicked, when people make gambit plays they dont think about the consequences.

That sounds ridiculous

i dont think it not being optimal takes away from his explanation of why he did it.

I think it does... There's nothing about the miller role that should make him think to try and bait night kill. That is 100% a VT strategy. He's going to get VT in half the games that he plays, why does he have to "ignore the consequences" in this one?

I don't know why he would fake claim miller as scum, but his play has been really bizarre if he's telling the truth. I really wish he'd addressed my post.

[Wickedestjr]

you are basically implying that RC is god-tier scum by saying he could be scum here

What?

I thought you were scum reading him.

[Wickedestjr]

its bizarre no matter his alignment.

I guess that's true.

it comes down to... do you believe in LAL?

Lynch all liars? RC never lied about anything if he's town

[Wickedestjr]

Right now I'm wondering if RC breadcrumbed miller with the intention of defending himself against a guilty investigation without drawing the attention that an immediate day 1 claim attracts. It also creates WIFOM that could benefit him.

That's why he could fake claim as scum. It sounds like a stretch to me too actually.

P-edit: what was misleading?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm just going to keep my vote on Boon

[Wickedestjr]

so claiming miller without being investigated would be going a bit too far out of the way for a plan like that.

That would be the WIFOM side of it.

But I'm inclined to agree with you. Usually when I cannot understand somebody's motive for the life of me, they end up being town.

I suppose Role cop + Miller is a special setup twist too

[Wickedestjr]

I want to go to sleep. I also want to lynch Boonskiies.

Dilemma;
The only people online right now are Tammy and the four people voting for Boon. That means, unless somebody else gets on, Boonskiies can't get lynched today.

[Wickedestjr]

do you play poker?

YES. It might be my favorite hobby

Still inclined to agree with everything else you said

[Wickedestjr]

Do my "thank yous" really come across as slimy?

[Wickedestjr]

Yep it's notscience or no lynch basically

Unless Nacho or Vinkah show up at the last minute

[Wickedestjr]

actually. if someone outside of Vinkah shows up we should flashlynch vinkah.

being serious.

I might actually prefer that to notscience or no lynch, but I still think Boon is a better lynch

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: RedCoyote

[Wickedestjr]

Right

[Wickedestjr]

I have this;

RedCoyote (5) - Nachomamma8, Vinkah, Wickedestjr, notscience, fferyllt
notscience (4) - Boonskiies, implosion, RedCoyote, pieguyn
Boonskiies (1) - Soft-spoken
Vinkah (1) - Tammy


Anything wrong with this?

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Boonskiies

(L-2)

We need notscience and Tammy

[Wickedestjr]

[Wickedestjr]

gnight all

[Wickedestjr]

I think we should mass claim now. Anyone disagree?

implosion, did you shoot SS? If not, what made you decide not to kill? I said I was okay with either decision, but I was really hoping you would make a shot last night because two deaths would have confirmed you as not-mafia... Now you could be mafia...

Fingers crossed that SS didn't jail keep Tammy. If Tammy got a telling result, we can probably start to back scum into a corner with POE.

I think {implosion, Nacho, Vinkah} is where we're most likely to find scum, I'll be rereading them.

[Wickedestjr]

Never got a response to this from end of day 2;

First read through of RC brings out the problem of me not liking the relative ease of his votes: RC as town usually picks a fight with someone loud and town (or, at the very least, finds problems in their play), but this game he hasn't really done that at all except maybe with the vote on SS but then he ended up dropping that decently quickly.

His hammer on Anen was a slight ping because he bothered setting it up at all; I think that was a call-back to classic RC-scum worrying about being image conscious with a decently iffy move.

Can you explain this change? I'm having trouble believing it. You were town reading him all game and then all of a sudden found him voteworthy. Your reread uncovered these points that you should have noticed on the initial read I would think... e.g. I literally voted RC at one point for his Anen hammer and you completely ignored it, even when you returned from VLA.

That's twice your end of day behavior has bothered me.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Nachomamma8

what are your current reads?

[Wickedestjr]

@Vinkah-

RC's first point against you is very bad, nobody here is going to vote for you solely for your inactivity. But you did slide by yesterday without doing much, and you shouldn't be allowed to do that again today. Can you respond to RC's other points? Just pretend the first one isn't there.

Also BTW, if the role cop visits a Mafia Goon, the result is "Vanilla". So the "Miller" role isn't an unnecessary twist, it would actually be one of the only town-aligned players that can get confirmed as town.

I'm inclined to believe that RedCoyote is telling the truth...

[Wickedestjr]

Given that we had a jail-keeper, how likely is it that scum have a role blocker? Role cop is already a limited investigative power, vig is only two-shot, role blocker + jail-keeper is a weird combo, what would a role blocker be necessary for? It's also the most unoriginal mafia role in an already unique setup.

I've been thinking and I have an idea for how we can confirm implosion as not-mafia, but it only works if scum don't have a role blocker. So I'm curious what you guys believe...

[Wickedestjr]

Also, the other game I was in just ended. It ironically had a 2-shot vig and a town rolecop (plus a gunsmith) against a mafia watcher who automatically watched the scum kill, and a doctor.

So yeah, 2-shot vig + rolecop might mean there's a scum doctor.

Shoot. Scum doctor ruins my idea too. Forget it, too risky.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm guessing your idea was to no-lynch?

Almost. My idea was that we play out the day normally up until somebody wants to cast a hammer vote. Then we no-lynch and tell you to shoot the person that we were going to lynch. If there's no roleblocker/doctor and you are really a vigilante, then we don't lose any lynches by handing power off to you - but we do confirm you as town. I'd be comfortable assuming no role blocker, but scum could very well have a mafia doctor. So I don't think this could work right now.

But now that you mention it, if we lynch a scum doctor today, there's no reason why we can't try this tomorrow. Doctor + RB seems like an even greater stretch.

[Wickedestjr]

Doesn't look like there's any opposition to mass claim. How do we want to do this?

Tammy is still the most townish looking player right now. I'm fine with her choosing the order or starting a popcorn...

I will happily start if we can't get the ball rolling on this soon.

[Wickedestjr]

I've been thinking and I have an idea for how we can confirm implosion as not-mafia, but it only works if scum don't have a role blocker. So I'm curious what you guys believe...

I don't know that we have to prove it. The proof is in two NKs.

True, but we haven't seen that yet... If implosion is really a vigilante and he continues to avoid shooting out of fear, then we might never see a double death night.

[Wickedestjr]

That's twice your end of day behavior has bothered me.

My reasons for thinking he was town had to do with me

thinking that he wouldn't play a scum game like this

because this isn't anywhere close to how RC plays scum. When I reread him, I was

rereading him through the lens of "how would RC play to his town meta as scum?"

and I started noticing small things that seemed like his normal town meta but had good advantage for scum, seemed awkward or a little bit off.

This doesn't make sense to me.

Firstly- I don't see any distinction between the two bolded comments.

Secondly- none of the "small things" that made you change your mind actually seemed small. This was your reasoning;

First read through of RC brings out the problem of me not liking the relative ease of his votes: RC as town usually picks a fight with someone loud and town (or, at the very least, finds problems in their play), but this game he hasn't really done that at all except maybe with the vote on SS but then he ended up dropping that decently quickly.

His hammer on Anen was a slight ping because he bothered setting it up at all; I think that was a call-back to classic RC-scum worrying about being image conscious with a decently iffy move.

The first point doesn't seem subtle. The second point you shouldn't have missed because RC and I had a conversation about it at the start of day 2.

[Wickedestjr]

Why did this vote come so late?

I wanted to iso you, Vinkah, and implosion first - pretty sure I said I was going to do that.

[Wickedestjr]

Nacho, can you popcorn somebody other than Vinkah? He can join the order once he's replaced, but if we really want to move this along, I think someone else should continue it.

Still hasn't claimed: Vinkah's replacement, Me, fferyllt, notscience (I think), pieguyn

I have a working theory for scum team, but I'm also going to wait until post mass claim.

[Wickedestjr]

Pretty sure 1 of Tammy, Fferylt, Nacho is scum.

Why?

[Wickedestjr]

It's possible (in fact I'd say pretty likely) that ffery was the n1 scum kill target.

I don't feel comfortable making that assumption... Firstly, as already mentioned, we don't know that Layla was protecting rather than roleblocking. Secondly, IIRC Tammy and I were also pretty popular town reads day 1.

[Wickedestjr]

How would scum be acting in this game? Would they be inclined to bus heavily? Would they be inclined to buddy each other?

Eh, in a competitive player list like this, it wouldn't surprise me if there was at least one bus in play. (E.g. Nacho and Vinkah perhaps) This is a very player-dependent question, though.

[Wickedestjr]

It's also telling that pie is choosing to argue with me rather than try and sway tammy and ffery to follow her

Can you explain why you feel this way?

[Wickedestjr]

I am a VT

/mass claim over

[Wickedestjr]

It's possible (in fact I'd say

pretty likely

) that ffery was the n1 scum kill target.

I don't feel comfortable making that assumption... Firstly, as already mentioned, we don't know that Layla was protecting rather than roleblocking. Secondly, IIRC Tammy and I were also pretty popular town reads day 1.

I'm not making it as an assumption, the overall point there is that ffery not having died isn't necessarily indicative that ffery is scum.

Maybe I misread the strength of your "pretty likely"

[Wickedestjr]

It delves down to what I know of pie.

I know pie has been dying to draw scum with nacho

because the two of them are very loud people when they want to be and could yell down people scumreading the other. Basically I could see them going "oh hey you are town and you are town lets be mason buddies!" and then just strongarm their way through the days, killing vocal people like ffery and tammy, I would probably be alive because while I would be paranoid of both they would protect each other.

Its basically they are both very strong players and

I know pie has been dying to be scum with nacho

so rather than play as passive a game as they have with town really looking for a leader, if they were scum together they oculd have easily controlled this.

pedit-
what do you think of pie not campaigning to you

I've never played with both of them at the same time. Can you show me something that would convince me this is true? (because this seems like a pretty strong point)

[Wickedestjr]

in all seriousness, I'm actually kind of excited over this. I had a hunch that Nacho rolled scum and he'd recruit me in order to stop me from catching him and we'd just steamroll the fuck out of town together. this is the same situation, except replace Nacho with you.

lololol

and they (scum) were two of the most active slots in that game.

I see what you mean.

[Wickedestjr]

Well in all honesty that was all my other head.

But.

Not sure what you're saying here

[Wickedestjr]

I'm going to sleep now, but have been thinking and wanted to throw this out there:

Could it be Nacho/Oversoul/ffery ?

Nacho/Oversoul, in particular, makes a lot of sense to me. Nacho's near-deadline play on both days is still bothersome (I hope he plans on responding to my last post wrt him). Vinkah has had Nacho as a scum read for most of this game, but never voted or questioned or made any effort to sort him. Nacho's post 1364 makes me feel even more confident that they are connected.

ffery is mostly POE + interactions with my other scum reads. I've had a pretty decent town read on her for most of the game, but it's clear after Boon/SS flips that I'm wrong on at least one of my weaker town reads. I don't know who could be scum with Nacho/Oversoul if not ffery...

I'm not comfortable town reading {implosion, pieguyn, RedCoyote} yet, but none of them make sense as partners with Nacho/Oversoul.

Still trying to consider everything, but will answer any questions about this tomorrow

Gnight

[Wickedestjr]

Geesh 90 pages?

Reading

[Wickedestjr]

I'm going to sleep now, but have been thinking and wanted to throw this out there:

Could it be Nacho/Oversoul/ffery ?

Nacho/Oversoul, in particular, makes a lot of sense to me. Nacho's near-deadline play on both days is still bothersome (I hope he plans on responding to my last post wrt him). Vinkah has had Nacho as a scum read for most of this game, but never voted or questioned or made any effort to sort him. Nacho's post 1364 makes me feel even more confident that they are connected.

ffery is mostly POE + interactions with my other scum reads. I've had a pretty decent town read on her for most of the game, but it's clear after Boon/SS flips that I'm wrong on at least one of my weaker town reads. I don't know who could be scum with Nacho/Oversoul if not ffery...

I'm not comfortable town reading {implosion, pieguyn, RedCoyote} yet, but none of them make sense as partners with Nacho/Oversoul.

Still trying to consider everything, but will answer any questions about this tomorrow

Gnight

how do you see a me/vinkah team? Did I wk him straight through to late day 2 and then decide to weak-bus him today?

Like I said... POE. If it's Vinkah/Nacho, then who do

you

think the third would be? If it's implosion, then all three of them were on the D1 lynch together, and implosion is bussing both his partners today. If it's RedCoyote, then Nacho's read on him seems like an unnecessary roller coaster and IIRC RC would also be scum reading both his partners. If it's pieguyn, then not science's strong-arm theory is wrong. I think it would make more sense that it's you. How does wk'ing and weak-bussing Vinkah hurt your likelihood of winning with him moreso than a more aggressive bus? Can you give me an example of posts that you think there's no way you would make if you're scum with Vinkah?

I'll admit, a ffery/Nacho/Vinkah team doesn't make 100% sense to me either. I'm

still

thinking about it, it's just my best guess right now and I have yet to come up with anything that seems more realistic. I really don't want to consider a scenario where I've been wrong about two of my decent town reads, as that would be extremely disappointing given my already awful play this summer - and I'm not sure I have to.

[Wickedestjr]

Firstly- I don't see any distinction between the two bolded comments.

The first comment is that I wasn't really considering him playing to a different scum meta; his play here looked nothing like his normal scumgame and that was good enough for me. The second comment is that I wasn't looking for a normal scumgame; I was looking for things that were missing from his towngame but were less obvious (RC's choice of targets, tone).

Well why does "missing town traits" suddenly trump "different scum meta"? And what prompted this reread?

[Wickedestjr]

Picking up on who he's pushing instead of focusing on the reasons he is pushing them is a subtlety to me. Is this an unreasonable viewpoint to have? Why?

Uh... yeah I think the decision of who to push is a pretty crucial thing. I'm not sure how to explain this because it seems pretty trivial. The reasoning is probably easier to dissect and interpret than the target choice, sure. But I also think that scum put a lot of thought into picking who they will attack - e.g. what's safe, what's best for them and their partners, etc.

I've literally caught scum before with a case that mostly revolved around voting behavior.

I mean obviously it isn't

that

subtle, or you wouldn't be referring to it now.

[Wickedestjr]

I didn't like RedCoyote's hammer vote.

-He expressed a decent amount of uncertainty as he was casting the vote.
-He said that he thinks, "Ane has some directions we may look at tomorrow regardless as to what alignment he flips." But this is a very weird comment for him to make when his top three "Anen, notscience, Layla" was completely different from Anen's top three. I'm curious what your answer to ffery's question will be.
-This comment:

If we can get out of the day with good discussion, no claims except for a VT and some clear input from the person being lynched... that's about as successful a D1 as town can have.

feels like setup for a known mislynch.

Vote: RedCoyote

yeah, close enough.
None of this has anything to do with why I found RC's hammer suspicious. Why should I have commented on it?

What. Are you serious?

You said your problem with RC was that his hammer was too image-conscious. That was two thirds of my case against him! (First and third points)

This feels like a misrep

[Wickedestjr]

And @Wicked: I'm not convinced that a nacho/oversoul/pie team doesn't make sense. The nacho/pie thing really doesn't convince me especially after Nacho's reply.

What Nacho post are you talking about?

I don't see any reason why pie/Nacho wouldn't try strong-arming it like notscience said... What do you see?

[Wickedestjr]

Nacho, you know you can't be town, right? You missed the end of D2. We had a big town meeting and only townies showed up (pie may have snuck in there at the end... not sure about that yet). Everyone else (read: you and Oversoul) went to bed early so you could scheme about your next NK.

[Wickedestjr]

I think Pie and Notsci coming into this day wanting to 1v1 is indicative that one of them is scum.

Why? I could understand this if you had issue with one player's arguments in particular. But it's not clear that you do, so this assumption doesn't make much sense to me. I'm still actually town reading both of them.

WICKED
Man I thought he was town throughout the entire day but since Claimgate 2k15 I honestly have no idea. I could talk myself to seeing him as scum. He doesn't seem to have as much of presence today as he did earlier which is indicative of his place in the game. But damn. My gut says he is town.

Ugh...

If I'm ever not posting, it's because I genuinely don't have time to! Geesh. I don't lurk; not as town, not as scum. Even as scum, I have enough confidence in my own abilities that I wouldn't resort to hiding from the side lines.

PLEASE don't say stuff like this. Today (and other days this week) was unexpectedly busy for me. Even on this day, I've been losing sleep just trying to keep up, and have managed to keep up and post my thoughts. So this kind of comment is frustrating. I get that you're not scum reading me for it, but I don't see why I can't get benefit of the doubt at least.

[Wickedestjr]

I need to think about this not VT claim. Stopping at page 89.

[Wickedestjr]

do you think, given his role, I would have played the end of D2 the way I did with me-scum RC-town?

If you're town here, how would you have played it differently as scum?

[Wickedestjr]

I'd like if someone who has a better setup-dar than me or who is more familiar with the kinds of setups Empire runs to look into this, but the major point here is implo is the correct lynch today if we have reason to believe the setup is 9-3-1 (otherwise we risk reach a degenerate gamestate that's basically impossible to win). there is also the chance Oversoul and/ or RC are just scum, but, meh.

If implosion is an SK and we lynch him, then that takes us to LyLo tomorrow. I would like to avoid LyLo if at all possible. Mafia's a bigger threat.

implosion is only a valid lynch if he's mafia, which it's possible that he is, but I think it best to stay away from him right now because the possibility is there that we can confirm him as not-mafia later. I understand that if we're never able to confirm him, then yes, we'll have to make a tough decision at some point.

[Wickedestjr]

Ffery, are you scum? I've been hoping you could sort of translate my thoughts wrt RC to wicked for me, and then right when I'm expecting you to step in and help, you vote me. Why?

I think I've understood what you're saying. I just disagree and I've explained why. You could try again? I think I'm a pretty understanding person and if you're town, you should have an understandable explanation to provide. As it stands now, this avoidance only bothers me more - we literally

just started

discussing all this.

[Wickedestjr]

I've gotten pretty strong town vibes from RC's posting the last day or two. But I don't understand what's townish or un-fakeable about Oversoul's latest posts. His play has come across as more frustrating than helpful.

Unvote. Vote: Oversoul

1. I asked you question and I don't like when my questions are ignored.

2. We mass claimed for a reason. I can't think of any role that merits this secrecy. I also dislike how you keep ignoring that Tammy's probably dead tonight.

3. You originally claimed VT when you could have said "Not VT". You only revised your claim in this way after it was clear that nobody else was going to claim a power role. You hadn't read the thread at the time of your claim, so not sure how you thought you could play like this.

[Wickedestjr]

Nacho and ffery both attacked each other shortly after I called them scum together... It's an unusual coincidence if they're not scum together but also seems too obvious if they are.

RC, what do you think of my Nacho/Oversoul/ffery idea?

[Wickedestjr]

You guys are really bad at this. Would not be surprised to see all the scum on my wagon if I am wrong about Notsci.

Nope.
Pretty sure the scum team just blew it's load. I don't think Tammy/Fferyllt are going to hammer me. Same with Pie. Unless Notsci wants to scum claim by hammering me, you guys are stuck.

Bye, Felicia!

This is entirely a scum team power play trying to get me to claim.

I will claim once Tammy has checked in.

This is just ridiculous.