Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Loopdan]

IC Intro

Hello!

I'm Loopdan, your Inexperience-Challenged (IC) player for the game.

What does this mean? That means I am here to lead by example and answer your questions along the way. I will be playing to my win-con (win condition) to the best of my ability, but if you have questions about Game Theory or Rules, I am required to answer them honestly, and to be clear when I am speaking as an IC vs. speaking as a Player.

Here are some helpful links (a lot of them from our helpful wiki):

-> Forum Rules and Guidelines
-> The Glossary
-> Commonly Used Abbreviations
-> The Newbie Guide
-> Articles on How to Play Well (be sure to check the dates these were written/updated, as good advice changes over time)

And here are some helpful tips:

->

Try to check in at least once a day.

Besides the activity requirements listed in our moderator's rules, it's just necessary for a fun and healthy game that everyone

plays

. If you post very rarely, or only post a little bit at a time, you may get scumread for lurking. Even if you are not scumread for it, what's the fun in playing a game where multiple people are hardly participating?

->

"Site Meta"

is the description of how people on Mafiascum like to play mafia. Things can be different on other online mafia sites, or if you play IRL, so it's good to know what's expected of you on this site. These aren't "rules", per se, but if you don't follow these guidelines it is likely things will go poorly for you on MS. Some examples are...

--->

Random Voting Stage (RVS)

The game almost always begins with RVS. Players make up reasons to vote each other. This gets people talking and the game eventually moves out of RVS pretty quickly.

--->

Voting, L-1, and Hammers

If your vote puts someone at L-1 (Lynch-1) this means there is only one more vote needed to eliminate that player from the game and end the day phase. you should always declare L-1 so that someone else doesn't come along and accidentally (or not so accidentally) place another vote on that person (a "hammer vote") that ends the day. To declare L-1 you just say something like "This is L-1" in the same post as your vote that put the player at L-1.

--->

Declaring Intent to Hammer

Before you hammer a player, state that you

intend

to hammer them first. Usually at this point the player will claim their role. It's best to then allow other players to react and respond to their claim before hammering.

--->

Claiming Your Role

It is frowned upon to claim your role unless you are about to be lynched (L-1 with an intent to hammer). Why is it generally a bad idea to claim your role? If you are a town power role (PR) you are then likely to be night-killed (NK'd). Even if you are a Vanilla Townie with no powers beyond your vote and your voice, you should not claim prematurely, as this then helps the scum players narrow down their field of possible NK candidates.

--->

Do not fake claim a power role as town!

You might think you will be outsmarting scum and gaining an advantage, but it is very rare when fake-claiming in a Newbie game benefits the town. While it may help you avoid getting lynched, you might cause a real PR (Power Role) to out themselves by counter claiming - then the mafia will know who the PR is, and you will probably get lynched for lying to town. Feel free to fake a claim as scum, though, if you think it would help.

--->

Don't vote for yourself.

There are very rare occasions where this is helpful in non-newbie games, but usually only for scum, so if you do it here you will certainly get scumread for it.

->

Mafia is hard!

As town, it can be hard to figure things out, and stressful when people think you're scum.

That's okay!

Just share your thoughts on who you think is scum as they come to you, and don't be afraid to change your mind. As scum, it can be hard to lie convincingly, and stressful when people think you're scum. Don't let that scare you! Try to think of what you would post if you were town, and don't be afraid to "change your mind".

->

Good luck and have fun!

IC Intro stolen and adapted from teacher and others...

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Munchmellow

For not reading my IC post yet.

[Loopdan]

That comment alone makes you more of a Ryan, though.

[Loopdan]

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

[Loopdan]

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

There wan't any real purpose other than to spark some form of discussion, which it now appears to have done

Yeah but then you just killed the discussion by saying that was it's purpose. You have to string out those kinds of plays if you want it to get something moving.

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Muh316

[Loopdan]

Later.

[Loopdan]

Oh well, seems I am going to be the odd one regarding timezones. Maybe.

Thought Loopdan's voting behaviour is weird. The first time he pushes Munchmellow to the lead for no reason (well I get it, random voting phase etc.), I think for pushing some kind of reaction with increasing the pressure, but then he goes after muh who can basically defuse the situation by himself because self-vote. Seems kind of half-assed.

So are you using "weird" as "I don't understand this" or as "this looks scum-motivated" or something else?

[Loopdan]

It's basically fake pressure to look pro town considering muh can and probably will just unvote himself eventually.

What do you mean by fake pressure? Like is that I don't really want to lynch him but I'm voting him to make him think I am trying to lynch him?

[Loopdan]

If you really wanted to pressure someone there were other and better options who already had one vote.

Who?

[Loopdan]

I interpret your move so that you push the second vote on people to pressure them. Alright. But in muh's case it's pointless, half the votes on him are basically himself. He can just shrug it off and unvote and *poof*... pointless. If you really wanted to pressure someone there were other and better options who already had one vote.

So did you consider adding a third vote on muh to increase the pressure? If you considered this, why didn't you do it?

For that matter, why aren't you voting me now?

[Loopdan]

@Skellen

So if I get this right, you are saying my vote was for pressure, but it's "pointless" pressure since muh can unvote, and that makes me scummy.

Can you explain why this makes me scummy? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I'd like to understand how you are thinking about this.

[Loopdan]

That's fine but they aren't here to talk to.

[Loopdan]

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

[Loopdan]

Skellen's post 56 is pretty good. I don't agree with everything he says, but his thinking is clear and he does look to be approaching this exchange from a mindset that wants to solve rather than lynch.

Skellen, you should be using your vote. I know you said you come from live games where a vote is final, but here you need to use it as a weapon. If nothing else, you should vote whoever appears scummiest. It allows for others to then build on those "wagons" with their votes and that's where pressure and sorting of alignments starts accelerating. You can always move your vote as your reads change.

[Loopdan]

IC NOTE:

To link a post number like in my last post, just type in a post number and surround it with the post tag.

Like this:

Code: Select all

[post]56[/post] 

[Loopdan]

if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me.

please don't say this. the first game of forum mafia i played someone said this. i came back half a day later to 9 pages of pointless discussion that basically destroyed the game

Thespio is correct that it's better to lynch than NL day1. But I don't like how he brought it up. It was out of the blue and looks like an attempt to declare his own towniness.

[Loopdan]

Still nothing.

64

[Loopdan]

@Thesio - You've given out three TRs (town-reads) so far if I'm reading correctly. Can you please give maybe a sentence or two on each of these explaining why their words and actions make you think they are more likely town than scum?

[Loopdan]

Thespio - Have you ever rolled scum?

[Loopdan]

Yeah I checked out your game history and didn't see any scum games, so just wanted to confirm I didn't miss anything.

[Loopdan]

@Skellen - The tone wasn't intended to be ominous. It was just my way of making it seem like maybe I had an actual reason to scum-read you for your self-vote. Sometimes that leads to others jumping on the wagon, sometimes it leads to others screaming over and over that they demand an explanation of the unexplained vote, sometimes nothing really happens.

[Loopdan]

EBWOP:
not "you for the self-vote"
should be "muh for the self-vote"

[Loopdan]

IC POST:

EBWOP means Edit By Way Of Post
Because we can't actually edit our posts on this forum (that would lead to some really manipulative stuff by scum).

[Loopdan]

Someone needs to shake this game up.
We are still pretty much in RVS.

[Loopdan]

Helloooo everyonee

Hi MissDeadBeat. What is your experience with playing mafia?

[Loopdan]

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

[Loopdan]

DAMNIT. Messed up the quote.

[Loopdan]

@MOD can you fix that for me please? The line "Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan)." should be inside Munch's post 70.

[Loopdan]

@Skellen - Have you played mafia on other sites? You seem more experienced than a typical first time player here.

[Loopdan]

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Thespio's lone vote isn't likely to mean much, but he's right. Her level of activity is unacceptable.

[Loopdan]

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

[Loopdan]

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

[Loopdan]

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

[Loopdan]

Enter has entered the game (I'm so sorry)

This "fluff" is what also makes me about Thespio, but at this point it could as well have been a method to get the game started.
You mean he slipped out in #84 that he is scum? I might missing it, but what exactly do you mean?

How come btw that you are addressing me of all people?

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

2);

How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

Mod Notes

Please welcome Enter!

much effort was made to avoid punning

Enter has entered the game (I'm so sorry)

I love you guys. Here's my own:

[Enter replacement]

This "fluff" is what also makes me about Thespio, but at this point it could as well have been a method to get the game started.
You mean he slipped out in #84 that he is scum? I might missing it, but what exactly do you mean?

How come btw that you are addressing me of all people?

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

2);

How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

PvtUrist is town.

@Enter - TvT was referencing Loopdan vs. Skellen. Sorry you wasted so many words but you need to reread those interactions.

[Loopdan]

Those quotes don't go there. I had to quote in order to read the spoilers and then forgot to delete them.

Also please use the other spoiler tag for mobile users.

[Loopdan]

1. Loopdans' vote has changed like six times on six pages. That's actually ridiculous and insane for a game where nothing has happened.

You aren't reading very closely. I've voted four times. You must be including Element's two votes that I quoted in 18. But even if it had been six times. So what? Are you arguing that it's more likely that I'm scum throwing out these votes to try and see what will stick, than I am town trying to sort players through discussion and pressure? Explain why vote changes like mine are scummy. You don't get to just declare something is scummy and have everyone believe you.

2. With Loopdans vote changing like the weather in Texas, this is the one of the few times he ACTUALLY has an even close to scum read, and his vote doesn't follow. This is weird on Thespio, specifically, because I'm scumreading Thespio because of Thespio's own actions in addition to his interactions with Loopdan which all seem more fake than soy milk. (no offense to soy)

You are conflating me saying that I don't like how Thespio brought up the "lynch me before no-lynch" thing with me thinking he is scum. That's not how that works.

3.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Loopdan agrees and says "thanks, I agree, I am town" no explanation, but asks one of the other players to explain his post on Thespio. Here's why that's weird:
a) He didn't do it himself
b) Scum LOVE to know what town thinks of their scum buddies
c) His last post called Thespio as scummy
d) His "just curious about your thinking" is so noncommittal.

You entirely missed this. TvT was Loopdan v Skellen. But now I see why you missed it because I wrote Thespio instead of Skellen when I asked Munch about it.

You last point was about me being noncommittal. OK. It's page six. I found one strong townread and that's pretty good progress. Contrary to what you seem to think you are doing here, you don't solve the game on page six.

Also, what is your experience playing Mafia?

[Loopdan]

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

Wait. I thought you were joking about the scum slip thing in 110. You serious?

[Loopdan]

I'll give a few points refuting Enter's case, but I really don't want to start dueling wall posts. Nobody wants to have to read through that and it can end up overwhelming the game. So in place of massive posts back and forth, I'll make a couple points and then leave it up to the other players to follow-up if they have questions or need clarification.

@Enter - TvT was referencing Loopdan vs. Skellen. Sorry you wasted so many words but you need to reread those interactions.

That's my point, dude. YOU ARE loopdan. Thespio says "I think this is TvT" referencing you and skellen. And you say "I agree"

My point is: glad to know you're town.

TvT means "Town versus Town." I think it's just really very obvious that I was saying I think Skellen is likely town.

And the thing about Thespio doesn't matter. You said:

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

So you're either asking for why are they townreading Thespio (who you JUST scumread) or why are they townreading you (which you should agree with anyways).

Again, the TvT thing was about Skellen. Again, I never said I scumread Thespio.

And I said that you changed your vote "LIKE" six times. FOUR on six pages is STILL ridiculous, considering especially how d1 went over and the last day. Stop trying to hide behind technicalities.

Stop misrepresenting my play.

1. Four votes on six pages is

not

ridiculous, especially at the start of the game. For you to use this as part of your case is absurd.
2. I'm not going to argue with you over whether four is "like six," but the way you just doubled-down on using this as proof that I'm scum seems indicative of how you are trying to force a case on me rather than develop a genuine read.

So, as I said, (and you accuse me of not reading closely), you saying you don't like it and not putting your vote on him is wrong.

I would feel your constant vote change is MORE acceptable if you had maybe put your vote on him here, because this is one of THE ONLY TIMES IN THE GAME where you give reasoning for thinking someone might be scum. ACTUALLY THE CLOSEST YOU'VE GOT TO A SCUM READ and your vote doesn't change to him? WHY?

So this is the only insightful thing Enter has said about my play, so I'll be glad to explain it. I liked Thespio's entrance to the game and didn't have any problems with him until that one post talking about no-lynch. Do you know how often town players make scummy sounding posts? I don't vote every single time I see one, sorry. Especially not with a newer player who has, let's just say it, kinda an odd style. And I don't think voting Thespio there would have helped me sort alignment when we had already established a conversational rapport. 76 is the post in question here. If anybody wants to see my train of thought, go back and check my next few posts after that.

Arg. This post is already too long.

[Loopdan]

Just so we are clear: Enter is trying to sell these three posts...

Spoiler: where I sheep my strongest TR and THEN encourage town to get more active while taking the blame for being lazy myself

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

....as

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

[Loopdan]

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

[Loopdan]

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

[Loopdan]

But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.

ORLY? Please elaborate.

[Loopdan]

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you pla

[Loopdan]

never mind I just saw it.

[Loopdan]

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions, indicating you have zero interest in actually sorting my alignment. Like I said before, you are either confbiasing or scum. I'm not going to get sucked into your never-ending tunnel of misrepresentations and outright lies (see 161 for just one example).

If other players think Enter has some valid points and want to point those out to me I'll be glad to engage and answer as best I can. As far as I can tell Enter's case on me is that I didn't do enough to advance the game-state (which I already admitted before he showed up) and that I placed 6 (oops I mean 4) votes without posting huge walls of explanation.

After I'm done reading some of Enter's prior games I'll come back with (hopefully) a better stance on Badtown v Scum.

[Loopdan]

@Loopdan:
What I don't get in the whole debate with Enter: Why are you dancing around the issue of scumreads for what Enter already called you out? It's hard to buy that you don't have anything in the Day 1 phase of the game, where grasping at even the tiniest straws is legitimately enough.

I just don't think it's an issue to not have scum reads when a) the games is just barely out of RVS, b) there are still slots who haven't even posted yet. Reads take time to develop based on what players do. There wasn't all that much activity prior to Enter showing up. Everyone in this game is new to me, so that generally takes longer. And we still have plenty of time left in day1.

I'm pretty good at reading players. I'm often better at town-hunting than scum-hunting, but that largely depends on the players involved. I still intend on going back through everyone's posts and giving a breakdown of my thoughts, but this weekend was very busy IRL and the little time I had to play were preoccupied bc every time I logged in Enter was screaming about me again. Should have time later today to do this.

[Loopdan]

@Skellen - thanks for that unannounced L-1 vote.

[Loopdan]

Pagetop goodness

Vote Count 1.6

PvtUrist (3) -

Elements

11

,

Skellen 118

,

Loopdan 125

,

Thespio 181

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

Loopdan (2) -

Enter 130

,

muh316 158

UNVOTE/Not Voting (1) -

Skellen

5

,

PvtUrist

5

,

Munchmellow

5

,

Elements

5

,

MissDeadbeat 5

,

Enter

5

,

muh316

5

,

Thespio

5

,

Loopdan

5

,

muh316

101

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-01-20 05:00:00).

Mod Notes

MagikHorse replaces MissDeadbeat/AbyssalLord.

No. I thought Thespio already voted.

[Loopdan]

You guys are seriously wasting time trying to find a partner of an unflipped player on day1. That's bad play. You need to be sorting other, uninvolved players because I have a sneaking suspicion that three of you on my wagon are town (not muh316).

[Loopdan]

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

VOTE: Muh316

I will be around if anybody has any questions, but I'm pretty much done. There is little hope of avoiding lynch here and I don't have the energy or time to invest in trying to convince a bunch of players who are already convinced to the point that they are looking for a partner.

[Loopdan]

I've played in 50+ games on this site and I have never seen such a terrible tunnel as the one Enter built here. I really hope he is scum because if he's town he's incredibly bad at reading alignments and is unable to reassess priors.

Please lynch him or Muh tomorrow.

[Loopdan]

The only good thing that came out of day1 was at least scum didn't get a PR claim forced out of someone. I'll gladly die to avoid that (and to get out of this game).

[Loopdan]

Yeah, I know I didn't play well either. I could have done more to try and convince you all, but Enter's volume of posting and never-ending nonsense makes this game just not worth it anymore.

GL town. You are going to need it.

[Loopdan]

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

100% fair. I'll own this. I'll also probably never IC again. You'll see post-game that I really wanted to make this game a positive experience for newbies because we tend to lose them nowadays. But this game smacked me in the face with the reality that I shouldn't be doing this if I can't devote the time and effort to the game.

[Loopdan]

Why Muh anyways? Your vote on him made me check out his small 8 post ISO before anyone else, but I'm not seeing anything particularly scummy sans what looks like a jokey self-vote and a bit of lurking. What are you seeing here that's worth voting him up as your biggest scumread?

Just saying, I'm not supporting this on CLATS alone.

He's low level lurking. His vote on me was opportunistic and unexplained other than something along the lines of "Enter makes good points" which muh knows full well they were not good points.

[Loopdan]

Just saying, I'm not supporting this on CLATS alone.

What is CLATS?

[Loopdan]

The only thing that really stood out for me is policy vote on MDb- @Loopdan, can you explain that.

Yeah, we were in RVS and a vote on an inactive player is better than a random vote that didn't mean anything. Then the next day Skellen was obvtowning all over the place and had a scumread on Pvt, so I figured that was better than the vote on an inactive player.

[Loopdan]

Im debating if Loopdan is just trying to pull a fast one and distract from his own lynch or is genuinely concerned about MDb.

I think you mean muh, not Mdb.

Obviously I'm not 100% confident on Muh. Naming scum day1 is never easy. So tomorrow don't just insta-lynch whoever I said is scum today. That'd be pretty bad. Play the game. Lo ok at everyone and re-read day1. Don't let Enter derail the game-state with mountains of text.

[Loopdan]

It's not a policy lynch. He's actively lurking and providing very minimal information for town to work with.

[Loopdan]

I'm pretty null on Pvt. His play is more relaxed than muh and when he asks questions it looks more natural.

[Loopdan]

Oh yeah, before I forget it, here's an old post from the Mafia Discussion sub-forum, where Enter brings up an effective way for scum to derail a game.

Enter's discussion topic he started 3 years ago (under his Extrapolated Eagle login) discussing how effective it is when scum hardcore tunnels a player who would otherwise be hard to lynch.

Spoiler: Does the playstyle he describes look familiar?

There seems to be an incredibly frustrating site meta that has developed since the last time I played about 2 years ago of hardcore tunneling a singular player, often a lynch that would be otherwise harder to achieve and it's getting under my skin. I have actually seen little to no tunneling from town in my recent games and deathtunneling has seemed to come almost exclusively from scum. I think this needs to be addressed, because this is ridiculous and frustrating to deal with.

Here's how it benefits the mafia:
1. It keeps doubt in the minds of town players that said tunneled player is town even if said player would often be considered strong town by day 2/day 3.
2. It keeps the victim from calling the predator out for fear of having "OMGUS!" screamed like a professional soccer player falls to the ground holding his leg and yells in pain when the ball is taken from him.
3. It gets the scum a town read because it's seen as "pushing his reads"
4. The scum player doesn't have to interact with the rest of the game or share reads other than "<victims name> needs to die, they're obvscum"

This needs to be callled out as scum like every time it's seen because it almost always comes from scum.

[Loopdan]

I'd also like to know what makes you differentiate "actively lurking" from any other kind of lurking, because I'm not seeing Muh online right now and he's not saying things elsewhere on-site either. If he was posting elsewhere and ignoring this game I'd cede the point, but he's not as far as I can tell.

Maybe "active lurking" isn't the right term. muh has the option selected that hides his online status when he logs in, so there's no way of knowing if he is actually here and not posting. That doesn't make him scummy, by the way.

What he is doing is popping in sporadically and selectively responding to the easy stuff.

[Loopdan]

@Enter - I didn't freak out. You kept yelling in ALL CAPS and repeating the same points over and over again, so I stopped reading your posts.

[Loopdan]

Actually, after reading that old post again just now I really do think Enter is more likely to flip scum than muh.

VOTE: Enter

[Loopdan]

I'm skeptical of something this old, especially since the whole point of that thread was to complain about a tactic that annoyed him. Can you find a game where he's done this strat himself to back this up in any way and prove that he would actually do something like this?

No I can't. Unless I'm missing something, Enter has exactly one scum game since he talked about this strat. It was Micro 834 where he replaced into a game of experienced players in the late game and played completely differently from this game. So there's that.

But I do find it odd that after he was lynched he posted this in post-game:

My only excuse is that this is my first game in like 2 years, haha. WP though. And I didn't answer your question, NSG, but yeah that was a totally valid reason. I have a lot of respect for the way you kept your wits about you and recognized suboptimal play even when I was trying to tunnel you and throw you off your game. WP all.

If you read his ISO in that game you'll see his push on NSG isn't even close to the intensity of his push on me here. Yet he called his push on NSG a "tunnel" but says his push on me isn't a tunnel. Remember, this was ten days ago.

He doesn't have a scum game that looks like this game (but it's a sample size of 1). All he has is an old post discussing a scum strat that looks like what he is doing here. I've reviewed a few of his town games looking to see if he does this as town, and haven't seen it yet, but I have obviously not read all of them.

[Loopdan]

Also, Magik's entrance has been good so far.

[Loopdan]

He has 47 posts in this game (most are rather large). Virtually all of them here are pushing a lynch on me.

He had 49 in that game (most not that large). Only 16 have anything to do with NSG, and they pale in comparison to his push here.

So why did he characterize his push on NSG a "tunnel" but says his push on me isn't a tunnel?

[Loopdan]

Alright I think I've said everything I need to say.

So go ahead and lynch me or lynch Enter. I'll gladly 1v1 with him now.

I DO NOT think we should be lynching outside Loopdan and Enter today. Scum at this point would love to move the lynch off of me because I've essentially claimed VT and they want to hit a PR or get a PR claim day1.

[Loopdan]

@Magik - Don't forget that other post where he categorizes his own play as tunneling NSG was posted 10 days ago. This inconsistency on how he views his play here is more than a curiosity.

[Loopdan]

Enter has 7 posts that are

not

about me. Here are the other 40+ posts calling me scum in less than a 48 hour time period.

Spoiler: This is what Enter calls "not tunneling" (You really should not expand this spoiler tag. I've warned you.)

Hey guys! I'll get to reading the game thread ASAP! I'll just start going through the first page and....

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

I dont think this is odd, I want to see some stuff from the other less active players, what did you find odd about this? why did it peak your interest?

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

There wan't any real purpose other than to spark some form of discussion, which it now appears to have done

Yeah but then you just killed the discussion by saying that was it's purpose. You have to string out those kinds of plays if you want it to get something moving.

VOTE: Munchmellow

For not reading my IC post yet.

VOTE: Muh316

O_O

Alright. That happened.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Glad to know you think you're town...

even though you are fascist scum

only when playing secret hitler

I like you now, im adding you, I played a game where someone who was not hitler indicated they were at the beginning because they are dumb and all the fascists outed themselves when she was elected. was funny.

Nice flip out of nowhere.

if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me.

please don't say this. the first game of forum mafia i played someone said this. i came back half a day later to 9 pages of pointless discussion that basically destroyed the game

Thespio is correct that it's better to lynch than NL day1. But I don't like how he brought it up. It was out of the blue and looks like an attempt to declare his own towniness.

Looks like scum to you, but where's your vote?

On the guy that self-voted in RVS?

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Thespio's lone vote isn't likely to mean much, but he's right. Her level of activity is unacceptable.

Thespio did something that looked scummy but you didn't vote him. She does nothing => null, but gets your vote?

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgoJ2AeUkAo

you change your mind
like a girl
changes clothes

Do you really feel it's double bussing? And why?

seconded

I was just playing devil's advocate on that one to see if someone was going to jump on it. I'm getting a good townread on Loopdan though. It looks like he's giving us game advancing content which is nice. It's generally towny if someone is going through the effort of reading metas.

Also, now that we've had a bit of an icebreaker UNVOTE: muh316

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Don't you think a policy lynch on an inactive player D1 will get us less information and we'll be in the same spot as we were D1?

I wouldn't be afraid to put that vote somewhere. Thespio and Loopdan are both good choices, cuz the mod will write in RED when they flip.

VOTE: Loopdan

Skellen reads town, though.
Elements also reads ... fine.
Thespio is full of words that mean barely anything w/ no vote and his "change of heart" on elements is weird.
Loopdan reads red.

Here's why Loopdan is scum (just a few of the reasons, there's a lot):


1. Loopdans' vote has changed like six times on six pages. That's actually ridiculous and insane for a game where nothing has happened.
2.

if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me.

please don't say this. the first game of forum mafia i played someone said this. i came back half a day later to 9 pages of pointless discussion that basically destroyed the game

Thespio is correct that it's better to lynch than NL day1. But I don't like how he brought it up. It was out of the blue and looks like an attempt to declare his own towniness.

With Loopdans vote changing like the weather in Texas, this is the one of the few times he ACTUALLY has an even close to scum read, and his vote doesn't follow. This is weird on Thespio, specifically, because I'm scumreading Thespio because of Thespio's own actions in addition to his interactions with Loopdan which all seem more fake than soy milk. (no offense to soy)
3.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Loopdan agrees and says "thanks, I agree, I am town" no explanation, but asks one of the other players to explain his post on Thespio. Here's why that's weird:
a) He didn't do it himself
b) Scum LOVE to know what town thinks of their scum buddies
c) His last post called Thespio as scummy
d) His "just curious about your thinking" is so noncommittal.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

This is so ridiculous I ran out of words the moment I started.
We are 6 pages into the game and he has ONE read? How does that happen? How does everyone else have more reads than him?
This is very noncommittal. He doesn't even accept responsibility for his vote.

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

"Look at me, I'm town because I share information on how mafia works"

Actually so many of his posts are like this.

For anyone wondering why noncommittal is bad:

Scum don't want to commit to something or look wishy washy on their reads because they want to keep the lynch open in case they need to hammer. They don't want to accidentally strong town read someone when everyone else is scumreading them because then it looks weird when they have to turn around and hammer.

SO. Long story short:

Thespio's posts amount to
1. hypocrisy (asking to explain when not explaining himself, on the first page when he jumps elements for changing his vote and then immediately changes his vote when Thespio says it's ok to do as town)
2. talk about mafia in theory/ meta to look like he's talking about something
3. Vote moving around like crazy
4. REALLY awkward interactions w/ Thespio that amount to nothing for either of them (even though they try to look like they push each other a little)
5. Sheeping his townread (what even? this is DAY 1. Push someone. Try to get scum reads since you don't have ANY)
6. noncommittal reads (How do you not have ANY SCUM READS and ONLY ONE town read?)

I could go on. The thing I quoted on page one also was weird. I could talk more about his weird interactions w/ Thespio. And there's probably even more.

In addition, even if he's not scum, we should policy lynch him for the octuple-post on page four. What even is that.

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

Like the fact that these two posts are right next to each other is insane.

"Post, ask questions, find scum"
"I have no clue who scum are, so I'm going to sheep my only town read"

@Enter - TvT was referencing Loopdan vs. Skellen. Sorry you wasted so many words but you need to reread those interactions.

That's my point, dude. YOU ARE loopdan. Thespio says "I think this is TvT" referencing you and skellen. And you say "I agree"

My point is: glad to know you're town.

And the thing about Thespio doesn't matter. You said:

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

So you're either asking for why are they townreading Thespio (who you JUST scumread) or why are they townreading you (which you should agree with anyways).

I didn't misread anything. There's only two options here, and the Thespio thing makes more sense to me (that you just misunderstood what they were saying about TvT or TvS.

And I said that you changed your vote "LIKE" six times. FOUR on six pages is STILL ridiculous, considering especially how d1 went over and the last day. Stop trying to hide behind technicalities.

Especially the WAY you flip your vote (and also didn't place it) when voting Thespio.

You aren't reading very closely. I've voted four times. You must be including Element's two votes that I quoted in 18. But even if it had been six times. So what? Are you arguing that it's more likely that I'm scum throwing out these votes to try and see what will stick, than I am town trying to sort players through discussion and pressure? Explain why vote changes like mine are scummy. You don't get to just declare something is scummy and have everyone believe you.

I've put far more explanation into my single vote on you than you have on all four of your votes combined.
Your vote changing four times in six pages is still wildly ridiculous considering one of them was on an inactive player, one was a SHEEP vote, and two were in RVS. This is what I mean by your play is hypocritical - you say one thing (asking me for more info on my vote) and do another (don't provide reads w/ your vote).
ALSO your vote changing four times in six pages is still wildly ridiculous considering you don't have a SINGLE scum read and you have ONE strong town read. Almost every other player in THE GAME has contributed more than you have.

I'm saying your vote changing so much is indicative of you not knowing who on earth you should vote and trying to find a wagon where it will stick. Especially w/ no reads in the process. To call it fence-sitting would be an understatement.

You are conflating me saying that I don't like how Thespio brought up the "lynch me before no-lynch" thing with me thinking he is scum. That's not how that works.

So, as I said, (and you accuse me of not reading closely), you saying you don't like it and not putting your vote on him is wrong.

I would feel your constant vote change is MORE acceptable if you had maybe put your vote on him here, because this is one of THE ONLY TIMES IN THE GAME where you give reasoning for thinking someone might be scum. ACTUALLY THE CLOSEST YOU'VE GOT TO A SCUM READ and your vote doesn't change to him? WHY?

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

You entirely missed this. TvT was Loopdan v Skellen. But now I see why you missed it because I wrote Thespio instead of Skellen when I asked Munch about it.

You last point was about me being noncommittal. OK. It's page six. I found one strong townread and that's pretty good progress. Contrary to what you seem to think you are doing here, you don't solve the game on page six.

Oh. I guess there was the third option, that it was about Skellen. Seems a bit like a freudian slip, tho.

You being noncommittal after asking town to be scumhunting is disgusting. You not having any scum reads on page six and SHEEPING your townread is dumb. It's PAGE SIX you should be scumhunting. Your vote should be wherever you think the player is the most scummy. You don't sheep unless you have no clue where scum are and you think that trying to talk about it would derail a current conversation and even then you said he was at L-2 (which to me implies you want him lynched). Who even brings up L-2? I guess it's fair to do, it just looks REALLY weird.

Anyways, it's PAGE SIX and I haven't seen you scumhunt at all in any form of acceptable manner. You even swapped votes in RVS after asking elements why he swapped votes in RVS (implying it looks weird to you). You even voted a LURKER which gets you nowhere. The one big time I remember you calling out someone for being scummy, YOU DON'T PLACE YOUR VOTE. Please, find another time you called someone scummy, that just makes it worse. You're saying things look weird/off to you and then voting for lurkers and sheeping your one town read.


======


can we just talk for a minute about how wild and bad it is to be sheeping? Especially in a newbie game, ESPECIALLY as IC, ESPECIALLY ON PAGE SIX when you have NO IDEA WHO SCUM ARE. If you don't know, please try and find them. If you have nothing on page six as IC that's a bad sign and you should be asking people why they have stronger reads than you do.

Also, what is your experience playing Mafia?

I played off site from about 2012-2014. Onsite in 2014, onsite in 2016, onsite in 2018. What's yours.

@Loopdan

If you don't know where to look, what to ask, what to do, feel free to ask a player.

They know what to do apparently.

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

This is A GREAT question for someone who looks like they're trying to avoid playing the game by talking about the theory behind it.

Stop misrepresenting my play.

1. Four votes on six pages is

not

ridiculous, especially at the start of the game. For you to use this as part of your case is absurd.
2. I'm not going to argue with you over whether four is "like six," but the way you just doubled-down on using this as proof that I'm scum seems indicative of how you are trying to force a case on me rather than develop a genuine read.

Lol. If you think your four votes aren't ridiculous, that's you. The way you voted was dumb. The way you haven't offered a reason for anything is dumb. The way you just say "misrep" and other big words to look smart when we both know I'm not misrepping anything is dumb. For you to take the fact that I said you used four votes in six pages as ridiculous and just IGNORED the part about how you haven't offered a good reason for any of them is dumb. The fact that you regularly ask for people to go in depth and explain and the only "explaining' you've done is point out that MS has a wiki and you're capable of using it in a string of eight posts (which is beyond ridiculous) is dumb. The fact that you keep ignoring and failing to quote large important parts of my posts and cherry picking and taking the parts you want to address out of their context is dumb. The fact that you do all of this while accusing ME of misrepping is dumb.

I could go on and on.
Your play is ridiculously suboptimal for town and you have no excuse as an IC to have NO READS on page six and be SHEEPING your townread. In regular games do you know how fast you get lynched for that? It's possible mafia has changed since I played a while ago, but sheeping is pretty much always looked down upon and VERY RARELY acceptable. I have personally NEVER seen an acceptable reason to sheep and the fact that you call yourself out on it is BAFFLING to me.

There is no way in my mind that I can justify you being town.

Let's pretend you are town for a second. Why are you playing defensive as crap right here? PLEASE OMGUS MORE. You're making literally every newbie mistake if you are town (which I do not believe in the slightest). If you were town as an even somewhat seasoned mafia player, you would at the VERY LEAST try to prove your town when you got called out for sheeping and AT LEAST post a reads list with one or two reasons.

The fact that you have as many posts as you do w/ so little content is insane.

So this is the only insightful thing Enter has said about my play, so I'll be glad to explain it. I liked Thespio's entrance to the game and didn't have any problems with him until that one post talking about no-lynch. Do you know how often town players make scummy sounding posts? I don't vote every single time I see one, sorry. Especially not with a newer player who has, let's just say it, kinda an odd style. And I don't think voting Thespio there would have helped me sort alignment when we had already established a conversational rapport. 76 is the post in question here. If anybody wants to see my train of thought, go back and check my next few posts after that.

This is an excuse. Also stop only quoting one or two of my points and then saying "THIS IS THE ONLY THING ENTER IS SAYING. LOOK AT THIS GUYS, DON'T ACTUALLY READ HIS POST."

Whatever. Let me get this straight though.

You are SCARED (in the first four pages of the game) of putting your vote someone who MIGHT BE TOWN. Because town sometimes makes scummy posts? You see someone post something that pings you as off, and you don't investigate? You just say "hmm, this pings me as off" and then follow-up to townread him almost immediately after? In a game where you don't have ANY SCUM READS you just continuously justify your lack of a vote on someone who posted something that looked scummy to you because they MIGHT BE TOWN. You are currently voting someone you DO NOT HAVE A SCUM READ ON, but you wouldn't vote for someone that looked scummy to you because they MIGHT BE TOWN? What happened to scumhunting and pushing your reads? How did you make that AWFUL vote flip in RVS after accusing elements of making a bad vote flip and yet you still won't flip your vote to the ONE PLAYER that you scumread. How is this logical in any form or fashion? I fail to follow any towny train of thought coming from this play. Your post here sounds more like you're defending Thespio as town than it does that you're defending your thought process.

And for people who want to meta me (which I recommend against, it's very rarely useful, at least for me) my other usernames are Tr1ckster and Extrapolated Eagle.

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Yes, it is. Because you're not using your vote when you see someone scummy, you're just sheeping your town reads. What even is that?

How do you have a standard for someone else you can't maintain yourself?

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

This is OMGUS and you know it. Post a reads list please. Give at least one solid reason for at least three of them. I know it's been hard for you to find a reason to vote someone this game that wasn't "RVS" or "isn't playing right now" but I need you to pull through for me. I honestly don't care too much what the reason even is, make something up. I'm just gonna look at it closely when you flip scum.

And let's be clear on the four votes thing. The four votes is ridiculous not in and of itself, stop saying that's why I'm saying it's ridiculous. You're taking me out of context and that's absurd. Please address why you thought it was a great idea to flip your vote in RVS right after calling out elements for doing so. Please explain why you thought it was smart to flip your vote right after applying a "pressure" vote to the only lurker in the game.

And stop getting angry at me cuz I won't let you have control back. You and Thespio drove the game into silence by townreading everyone and forgiving everything you saw as "that player MIGHT BE TOWN" (you did this with Skellen, too) and then you blamed the lurkers for it(which is a p common newbie scum tactic from what I've seen, I might add). You won't push anyone for reads, you want to sit so squarely on the fence that it's beginning to dig a hole into your stomach.

Just so we are clear: Enter is trying to sell these three posts...

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

....as

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

Yes. I am saying that. Just because you say
"oh hey, I'm lazy" or "oh hey, I'm scummy" doesn't excuse lazy/scummy play. It still means you're scum.
When you tell town to be looking for scum, YOU SHOULD BE DOING SO YOURSELF.

SET. AN. EXAMPLE. Sheeping is the utmost paragon example of laziness/lack of scumhunting in a mafia game. I challenge you to try to find a better example.

And no, challenging me on "free with vote" instead of "use your vote" to me it means the same thing. I don't care. Either way YOU ARE NOT USING YOUR VOTE.
TWO EXAMPLES in the posts you've quoted and the arguments you've made of holding town to a standard you yourself do not meet. => You do not meet the standard for town. => You are not town.

Ugh. I hate myself for doing this, but every time I go to go back to "view my posts" again I see another one of these inane comments. I guess I'll just close the tab after this one.

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Stop taking my words out of context. I'm saying you're scum for telling her to use your vote and you're not using yours.
[quote="In post 163, Loopdan"\]Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard

Just out of curiosity:

Define tunneling/confbias for me and then explain how I, having just Entered (haha) the game thread, have become convinced by my own argument that I have not yet made?
Tunneling is an even worse excuse because you're implying that I've been seeing you as scum for a while (as far as the connotation is concerned).

Please at least call me scum and don't sit on the fence about it if you think I'm bad. (even though I walked in the game thread and all of a sudden we have two viable wagons and both of them are on scum)[/quote]

I know, I'm the worst.

Alright, so Town, to answer the potential question of "Why is Loopdan making silly excuses that don't make sense in order to try and call Enter town while simultaneously implying he might be scum?" like in this post:

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

Really, there's two answers to that question:

1. He just saw a couple other players call me town, and he doesn't want to look weird by pushing me for the rest of the day and then last minute flipping so that he can hammer someone else, because that would look weird for him, so he's hoping someone else will call me scum so he can see me as a viable lynch, at which point he will likely place his vote on me (and possibly do it while "sheeping" someone else so he doesn't take responsibility for it )
2. Scum are often cautious about pushing for lynches on town. Often, I've found, they prefer to sit in the middle of the wagon, so no one points a finger at them when the player flips GREEN. So again, he's waiting for someone else to push on me so that he can follow-up and not have to take responsibility.

The fact that his vote is still on PvtUrist (who he said he didn't have a scumread on) and not on me (who he just said is Bad Town or Scum) is ridiculous.

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you pla

Try reading my posts all the way through. I answered your question.

Just wanted to put these next to each other:

Post a reads list please. Give at least one solid reason for at least three of them. I know it's been hard for you to find a reason to vote someone this game that wasn't "RVS" or "isn't playing right now" but I need you to pull through for me. I honestly don't care too much what the reason even is, make something up. I'm just gonna look at it closely when you flip scum.

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions.

But yeah, I don't think you really have a way out of this one. My only real request -which is the reason I asked you to post reads, but you've indicated (3? please don't yell at me for getting my numbers wrong again, I know how much they matter to you) times that you will not ever actually read the things I post - that you should at the very least fix yourself, post reads/read the actual thread.

Skellen

(and anyone else curious)
As to why he made post 125 as scum - You can watch a trend throughout the days if you go back and read through of him gradually getting more and more comfortable. He probably WAS actually reading people's posts and trying on day one, but town kept letting him get more and more comfortable until he could get away with just skimming posts, giving people a townread, and moving on with his life. You can see this in the whole "TvT debate" we had earlier, which likely looked like it was absolutely nothing, but the fact that he lost track of who he was even talking about and dropped a different name can be indicative of him beginning to slip on his attempts to look towny. I think by the time he got to 125 (especially in a slow game where it feels like you're winning, it's easier to begin to slip on things), he felt like he was in complete control of the game (it certainly looked like he was). That's part of why the post following the one that made him look so scummy is so very damning. Town has time/scum has information. As days go on w/ less posting/less information/less looking like control of a lynch, scum will get MORE comfortable while town will become less comfortable and begin to freak out. I think in a normal game where he'd been kept on his toes all game, he never would have made such a horrendous post, but the fact that he felt like he was in control and had no sense of danger is what makes him so condemned.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

This is one example of what I'm talking about:

He REALLY means to be talking about Skellen here but he says Thespio. Sure, people make mistakes like this, but not when you actually want an answer to your question. If you're just thinking "I should post just to post," you're much more likely to make this mistake, but this is a Freudian slip, he wasn't actually thinking about Skellen, because none of that really matters to him.

The most interesting part is that NO ONE CALLED HIM ON IT and therefore he got even more comfortable. He probably wasn't thinking about it at all when he posted it, it was just a post to make a post, and once he made one like that and get away with it, he felt more comfortable applying himself less, so he didn't catch himself when he made scummier and scummier posts throughout the game thread.

Also, something you'll notice is that he seems to put a high value on reading other people's games and seeing what they're doing. I used to try to do this, I almost guarantee he will get close to nothing out of it, but it's a pretty decent excuse for him to stop digging a hole for himself. You'll notice that you probably started thinking he looks a little more towny after asking for that, and he's probably not even gonna come back with results.

He's also telling you that I'm not asking any questions for him, but aside from the fact that I have at least three times now (I think it's four?) specifically asked him to post his reads at a bare minimum, if someone calls you out for not posting reads, for not scumhunting, do you think the correct response is to get defensive or to begin scumhunting and posting reads?

A list of questions derived from my posts for you, @Loopdan (and some I came up with on the spot)

First and foremost, please define tunneling/confbias for me and explain to me how I am already convinced and blinded by reads I didn't even have when entering the game thread? I will almost be happy if you just explain this one at all because it will mean that you're not just using giant mafia words to sound like you know what you're talking about.

Why is your vote currently on PvtUrist?

Do you think sheeping is acceptable? If yes, provide circumstances/reasons.

If town has a time advantage over scum, but scum has an information advantage, why would you feel comfortable not scumhunting and instead sheeping someone else's vote?

Why were you thinking about Thespio when you posted asking why Skellen was town?

Why were you questioning why another player was town reading Skellen, when you had already said you were townreading her (and provided no information in the process)? Why in this process, did you take a noncommittal stance and imply you didn't particularly feel one way or another about skellen?

Why is your vote not currently on me, even though (according to you) my play is suboptimal as town and indicative of scum?

What do you hope to find my reading my meta?

In addition to this, please post a reads list.

I realize now that Loopdan may not have been able to recognize I had a question for him here because I screwed up the quote box and he can't read around it, so I fixed it.
Please still respond to this.

Ugh. I hate myself for doing this, but every time I go to go back to "view my posts" again I see another one of these inane comments. I guess I'll just close the tab after this one.

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Stop taking my words out of context. I'm saying you're scum for telling her to use your vote and you're not using yours.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard

Just out of curiosity:

Define tunneling/confbias for me and then explain how I, having just Entered (haha) the game thread, have become convinced by my own argument that I have not yet made?
Tunneling is an even worse excuse because you're implying that I've been seeing you as scum for a while (as far as the connotation is concerned).

Please at least call me scum and don't sit on the fence about it if you think I'm bad. (even though I walked in the game thread and all of a sudden we have two viable wagons and both of them are on scum)

1. I don't know you but I probably have around as much experience as you do. The fact that you don't know that shows you barely read my posts. Please actually read them and play mafia instead of being dismissive.

PvtUrist is town./

You and Loopdan are scum.

Alright. Sorry for being a bit terse earlier, I was doing something else and it gets under my skin when people get all uppity and dismissive, especially in Mafia.

Thespio, you're being dumb. I said in a post earlier that I have two accounts dating back onsite in 2014 and 2016.

The fact that you straight up dismissed my posts to the point of not reading them because I was pointing fingers at you says a lot about you as an SE (if you're town for some reason.) The fact that you would just not read something because you thought "oh it's prolly just a newbie being a newbie so he doesn't know enough to make a good point and is just scared of people w/ more experience than him" isn't an attitude that should be reflected in SE play.

Now, let's get to this really crappy PvtUrist scum read you've got goin on here:

Reads(town to scum)
Loopdan- Loopdan is progressive in the game, pushes everything forward, I feel like their experience shows and they are getting flak for it. (@skellen, the reason why there are no skum reads for loopdan is because there isnt enough clash between the less active members, its one thing about newbie games that take place over holidays that suck. now is when im developing mine because people are actually posting)
Skellen- The clash and pressure they are misplacing on loopdan is genuine IMO, i wish they would redirect it.
(null)

Enter- I feel enter is missing the game, they havent really talked about anyone just pointed alot of fingers. both at an SE and IC, it comes across as a lack of trust in experience. I do think they are almost a town lead.
Elements- this one is shifting for me, in the RVS i was joking with them but i dont think they left this stage, im not getting a scum vibe but im getting a *I dont care* vibe. their posts dont actually lead to anything. I never thought they were scum at the beginning i was poking them to see a reaction, didnt really get one

Munchmellow/muh316- not enough posts
missdeadbeat-null, 1 post, hate players like this

(skum lean)

PvtUrist, PvtUrist, PvtUrist: look at their posts, dear god they tunneled me from the start, they are watching the game but not contributing, they arent progressing the game, they get on me for points that make no sense, they literally dont bring up anything that is even questionable, I understand why people thought Post 69 was susp it was an innocent gesture since 3 people were playing the game BUT PvtUrist didnt even care, they focused on me saying i would talk about girls (which i said as a joke because i was a single college kid when i played last and now I'm married), they then switch it to something utterly stupid again. The things i look for in scum are:
1- Inactivity
2- Accusations for reasons unknown
3- Avoiding confrontation

PvtUrist hits all of these, so PvtUrist here are my questions for you:
Explain why you think im scum
Explain why your reads on everyone else are so vaugue
How do you feel about the lack of activity
Why are you lurking

VOTE: PvtUrist
Would still like more from Deadbeat but they seem to have left the building....

@Enter give me your honest opinion about PvtUrist, also whats your lynch order at this point?

To address point 1:
Looperdan also has been in the game six pages without saying very much at all as far as the game is concerned. PvtUrist has MORE reads than he does. Why are you not questioning Looperdan?

point 2:
Looperdan has made 4 votes this game. Two with no reasoning (in RVS, which is fair), one on a lurker (which is a pretty common tactic for scum players), and one as a sheep vote to another town player. That was the extent of the reasoning he gave. PvtUrist has given more reasoning than that for his vote on you. Why are you not questioning Looperdan?

point 3:
Please point me to what posts of yours PvtUrist has avoided and where he's avoided confrontation. From what I've seen, his posts have been more indicative of town than almost anyone here. You and looperdan both have cherrypicked and avoided what I'm actually saying, you especially, by being dismissive of my experience (which in a newbie game is dumb and unacceptable).

Now, some questions of my own, for you:

1. Why are you so dismissive of the possibility that Loopdan could be scum?
2. Why are you ignoring and refusing to point any suspicion towards Loopdan?
3. Since when is pointing fingers (or pushing reads, as I call it) a bad idea?

I disagree with you on a lot of points. I think you've got a closed mind on how this game is going to run and that you're driving it into the ground with ideas like "everyone can be town" (not what you're saying, but what you're coming off as) "let's lynch the lurkers" and "we should policy lynch of no lynch d1." Whatever. Game theory doesn't matter and it's possible you're just town, I have a tendency to read these things (people disagreeing with me, playing in ways that I would argue are suboptimal) as scummy, even though they're definitely not as suboptimal as some of the things OTHER PEOPLE here have been doing. I just did a quick reread of you and I'm not as convinced you're scum. I think you pinged a bit when I was reading Loopdan and that caught me off-guard, but I'll maybe case you tomorrow or something.

If you are town, PvtUrist is a bad lynch right now. Please read through my loopdan case SERIOUSLY and respond.

@Thespio

This is more scumhunting than Dan has done all game. I challenge you to find a post of Dans that competes w/ this in any way shape or form.

My reads are lame so here's a few questions;

@Skellen ignoring the 2 inactive players, who do you feel to be the scummiest/towniest right now? How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

It would certainly be convenient if the

lurking scums

inactive players decided to show up.

This is more reads and more thought than anything Loopdan has at the moment.

Read update;

{Urist} conf town
{Skellen, Loopdan} lean town
{Elements} null town
{Enter, MissDeadbeat, Munchmellow, muh316} null
{Thespio} null scum

Skellen; Loopdan explains how I feel about him/her well in 126

Loopdan; ISO reads town

Elements; felt town from first read, but I guess there wasn't as much content in his posts than I previously thought they did.

Enter; feeling null, interested in where he reads Loopdan as red.

MDb/Munch; would appreciate a few more posts from either of them.

muh316; null right now

Thespio;

isn't talking about girls=scum

safely parks vote on inactive player rather than engaging with the more active players

In addition, PvtUrist is pushing his scumread (you) and his reason makes sense (you're pushing lurkers, bro, that's dumb. Stop doing it.) Also he has a reason. Unlike Loopdan.

Ok m8 lets go over this, putting aside that you think offsite experience makes you a master of the meta on a completely other site, and flipping out because you dont think anyone is reading your posts (which we are), there is nothing in what you are posting that isnt just you repeating yourself. You think its loopdan so you post 4 things about why you think its loopdan but they are all the same reason. You think its me and you make a page long post about how its me but is mostly just quotes and you playing WIFOM. You also seem to get arrogant over lurkers, why would town be INTENTIONALLY LURKING as Pvt has? who is that helping? he even acknowledged he was and said its just because hes lazy. WHY DO YOU BUY THAT?

Now another thing, why is pvts case against me better then any speculation loopdan has made?
Lets follow his actions:
Post 10: RVS on me
Post 71: Thinks its sketchy i had banter with elements. which you should see as me interacting with town since you are so dug in on loopdan and I.
Post 110: Pvt calling me as scum slipping because i made a joke about how as a college kid playing with other college kids in my college we talked about girls and I asked a female in game a question.

EXPLAIN WHY THIS MAKES ANY SENSE

Post 111: Puts me as scum with no reason beyond the prior
Post 112: asks skellen a decent question, believes its be for the reason in post 110
Post 132: pushes me for the same reason in post 110
Post 133: filler
Post 134: States he is lurking intentionally
Post 136: Changes his reason for it being me to trying to get activity out of less active players, also thinks im not engaging with active players. Which I was, ive posted more then him most of which was town hunting and establishing who i think is town

So heres my questions, why do you think pushing a joke makes him town? why do you think 9 posts, 1 filler, 7 pushing a joke, 1 a change from joke to policy, are somehow helping us here? If you think hes town defend his reasoning. to me it looks like he is trying to get his rvs vote lynched, never met a townie who has played like that.

Alright m8, putting aside that I've been on this site since 2014 under different usernames, you just don't happen to actually read what I'm saying (which you aren't, cuz this is the third time I've said this).
You're making a shit ton of bold claims there and you won't even acknowledge or respond to what my points (yes points plural, it's not just me repeating myself, I think you think skimming = reading) against loopdan are. Why not respond to them?
I've seen town lurk a million times before and I'm going to see town lurk a million times again. From here, PvtUrist doesn't even look bad because he at least contributes to a game thread.
His vote was on you, you didn't do anything, he prolly had a legitimate scum read on you (but it was only gut until you started actually pushing lurkers). You've looked like shit for town all game. Let's look at your loopdan posts, though.

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

Wait. I thought you were joking about the scum slip thing in 110. You serious?

1. Loopdans' vote has changed like six times on six pages. That's actually ridiculous and insane for a game where nothing has happened.

You aren't reading very closely. I've voted four times. You must be including Element's two votes that I quoted in 18. But even if it had been six times. So what? Are you arguing that it's more likely that I'm scum throwing out these votes to try and see what will stick, than I am town trying to sort players through discussion and pressure? Explain why vote changes like mine are scummy. You don't get to just declare something is scummy and have everyone believe you.

2. With Loopdans vote changing like the weather in Texas, this is the one of the few times he ACTUALLY has an even close to scum read, and his vote doesn't follow. This is weird on Thespio, specifically, because I'm scumreading Thespio because of Thespio's own actions in addition to his interactions with Loopdan which all seem more fake than soy milk. (no offense to soy)

You are conflating me saying that I don't like how Thespio brought up the "lynch me before no-lynch" thing with me thinking he is scum. That's not how that works.

3.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Loopdan agrees and says "thanks, I agree, I am town" no explanation, but asks one of the other players to explain his post on Thespio. Here's why that's weird:
a) He didn't do it himself
b) Scum LOVE to know what town thinks of their scum buddies
c) His last post called Thespio as scummy
d) His "just curious about your thinking" is so noncommittal.

You entirely missed this. TvT was Loopdan v Skellen. But now I see why you missed it because I wrote Thespio instead of Skellen when I asked Munch about it.

You last point was about me being noncommittal. OK. It's page six. I found one strong townread and that's pretty good progress. Contrary to what you seem to think you are doing here, you don't solve the game on page six.

Also, what is your experience playing Mafia?

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Someone needs to shake this game up.
We are still pretty much in RVS.

@Skellen - The tone wasn't intended to be ominous. It was just my way of making it seem like maybe I had an actual reason to scum-read you for your self-vote. Sometimes that leads to others jumping on the wagon, sometimes it leads to others screaming over and over that they demand an explanation of the unexplained vote, sometimes nothing really happens.

Skellen's post 56 is pretty good. I don't agree with everything he says, but his thinking is clear and he does look to be approaching this exchange from a mindset that wants to solve rather than lynch.

Skellen, you should be using your vote. I know you said you come from live games where a vote is final, but here you need to use it as a weapon. If nothing else, you should vote whoever appears scummiest. It allows for others to then build on those "wagons" with their votes and that's where pressure and sorting of alignments starts accelerating. You can always move your vote as your reads change.

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

all loopdan of the above are loopdan posts with more progression then all of pvts combined.

146 You're joking, right? Loopdan worries about the one thing he always does... how people are reading you.
145 is Loopdan being defensive, no intentional progression there, he doesn't even respond to everything I'm saying
147 Talking about game theory is not progression. Sometimes it's even distracting from something that's actually going on. You know who finds it easy to talk about game theory all game? Scum, because then they don't have to do things like give reads that will screw them over later
126 I'm not even going to begin w/ this. Not only do I fundamentally disagree w/ him (slower games are easier to go back and read and people seem to be legitimately scared of giving him a scumread due to him being IC), but he has a single town read and this is the only explanation he has given to this point. PvtUrist gives more explanation in his reads the post before.
92 Is Loopdan sitting on the fence and looks like he's retconning a read he just gave (which is super scummy to me), as well as dropping a Freudian slip that looks pretty condemning, IMO. He asks someone to explain a townread on a player he just said he had a townread on and gave no explanation for.
90 Is Loopdan asking someone else to do his job (as VT)
87 Is Loopdan defending his vote flip in RVS... defensiveness is not progression
59 Is Loopdan discussing game theory
18 Is Loopdan asking someone why they changed their vote in RVS (what was he expecting) and then later he berates him for answering his question

You're joking about this being more progression than what PU put out right? Did you even read what you linked me? I'm starting to think you just quoted everything with more than one line in it, but that's not true because Loopdan has been spamming the thread for six pages with game theory. A lot of the posts you quoted are the reason we were in a stagnate town to begin with. Every time someone got close to pushing reads, Loopdan would do that thing where he'd be like "You're prolly town." It looked to me like he was doing it so people would townread him. PvtUrist is maybe one of the only people impervious to that stuff.

And I hate to break it to you, dude, but you've been pinging MY scumdar since page 2, and PU ACTUALLY has a decent reason for voting you. You should stop w/ the OMGUS

And I hate to break it to you, dude, but you've been pinging MY scumdar since page 2, and PU ACTUALLY has a decent reason for voting you. You should stop w/ the OMGUS

Two things. if you are under an alt list your accounts. explain what point he has. thats it. then i will vote myself because of how toxicly bad you are at this game. you think pushing a joke is a serious development and you follow up with me saying we need to push lurkers as a condemnation. its cute but i dont think anyone here is reading it the same way, including pvt. im slipping you down, sr all the way. that or youre anti town. Im leaning scum because i want to hope someone with alts (playing a newbie game in a newbie slot) wouldnt be anti town.

The funny thing is I've already listed them. Sorry you want to play against your WINCON (which is against site rules), but if you'll help me lynch scum, sure.

My alts are Tr1ckster and Extrapolated Eagle. I'm not playing with an alt, this is my main account. I don't use either of those accounts anymore and haven't for some time.

PvtUrist's big solid reason for pushing you is that you're pushing lurkers => causing the game to run slow and grind to a halt. This is pretty common for scum.

Please vote yourself now.

This is intent to hammer in 8+ hours, after I see a significant number of people have responded

because I don't think this game is going very far after this. I honestly almost see this as game solved.

Alright. So I've been pretty back and forth on my read for Thespio, which is why I've been really rather hoping to get a Loopdan lynch today so we can re-examine Thespio tomorrow.

The biggest part causing me to reconsider my scum read on him is how quickly the wagon formed. One thing that is often good to look at in mafia games is who is pushing what wagon and when. Day 1 wagons are often really quite hard to work up to a lynch, especially w/o scum. This is one reason why very often townies are lynched on day 1; scum controls a little over 20% of the vote and they both know who they want lynched - anyone but them. The Thespio wagon built pretty quickly after my arrival, which is somewhat surprising, since I didn't really push him at all. My thought is that town was looking for someone to push that wasn't a lurker, but was under the influence of loopdan/Thespio => didn't really want to try to solo push one of them against the crowd. So, considering Thespio is at a potential L-1 right now, let's look at who's on this wagon:

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

And for the sake of analysis, we'll consider Thespio's 193 as a self-vote.

Munchmellow doesn't have very many posts this game, but the ones she does have, I follow and share a thought process with. She suspects Loopdan in 70, reexamines her read and explains why Thespio feels off in 137 (which I agree with, BTW, the whole "self -vote" thing is a level of AtE that shouldn't be accomplished by anyone other than a newbie, IMO)
[BTW, Thespio, if you're reading this and you still think for some reason that Loopdan's 92 was serious, you should notice that Munchmellow responds as if he's asking about you and he still doesn't notice, which should trigger the thought in you that it's pretty apparent loopdan is asking questions to ask questions and has nothing he's looking for] Anyways. Munchmellow posts reads in 140 - which I agree with, and it makes me happy that it's a pretty full reads list. I feel pretty solid on Munchmellow for town.

Elements follows Munchmellow. ISO-ing him and one could easily see how you might think you're ISO-ing the same person. Again, I agree with his thoughts, his reservations on the whole self-vote thing, his questioning of double-bussing. I like him for town.

PvtUrist - This one is weird, because it does still feel, in the slightest way, a bit weird to me that he has maintained his vote on Thespio since game start. But. Here's why I think he's town: He was the first player to drop reads. Loopdan's vote on him is super weird and he avoids responsibility for his PvtUrist vote (which loopdan would WANT responsibility for PvtUrist flip if he was bussing his buddy). When PvtUrist did drop those questions in 112, they were pretty decent questions and indicate some small amount of town - motivation. Yes, my town read on him is weak. No, it doesn't matter, because my scum read on Loopdan is ridiculously strong, and there isn't two scum in [PvtUrist, Loopdan]

Finally, Thespio:
I disagree with the idea of lynching yourself. Let's start there. Yes I was ok with it when I started mafia, but I've grown and changed a lot, I think. You have a role-pm from the mod that says you're town. That is the largest confirmation you will get and the first piece to the logic puzzle that is mafia. (it's a little more than a logic puzzle, but bear with me). The only time you should ever be ok with yourself being lynched is never, IMO, because you should always be doing your best to be the largest asset to town when you're alive, and when you're dead, you have no control over the game. I have seen so many times where it looks like town has won because everything is set up perfectly and some charming mafia goon wins over the heart of the guy heading off his lynch and all of a sudden town loses in a 3p LyLo. Sure, at the end of day yesterday, everyone agreed that if you self-voted then they would lynch the mafia goon you were so certain should die if you flipped town, but people change. People's read change. A lot. Especially over night. However, I will not lynch based solely off the fact that people are willing to play sub-optimal town games in this way, because I'm pretty sure there are mafia players that will disagree with me on the self-vote being suboptimal. Whatever.

Let's get to the next issue: Self-vote threats: This is an entirely different matter because it is the lowest of low AtE. While talk of lynching yourself can be considered mafia theory, threatening to self-vote is a spastic response of emotion that belongs nowhere except every once in a while, from a newbie, in a newbie game. Then the threat should be squashed by the IC and everyone should move on with their lives, because it's bad. It is very bad. I view self-votes in mafia games like I view threats to wreck your own car because it would get attention. Will I lynch for it? Not always. Did it make me think he was almost definitely scum for a moment? Yes. This is one of the very few places that meta-ing someone does come in handy for me. When I see someone make dumb newbie mistakes like this, I go back and look at past games and see if they make the same mistakes in those games as town. So, let's see what we can find:

In Newbie 1640, Post 190 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

This helps no one. if you honestly got him lynched and he was town, then its likely a scum driven lynch and thus if you are town you will have scum backing as well. Ultimately you could both be town.

Indicating an understanding that self-flipping and threats of such are rarely reasonable.

And in Newbie 1625, Post 982 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

There kill last night is basically WIFOM. I think its odd you countered immediately... But I also think Jorams timely absence is quite mysterious too... So im lookin @ Jorams post about being investigated a possible scum slip. I also think Aku is lurking pretty badly... Anyone have any think aku might have used Bulba as a train after we all were questioning him?

Again indicating how much WIFOM surrounds a kill. Sure, he's talking about a night kill here, but the point is across that once you're dead, you're not as effective and it is so easy to WIFOM everything out. Even if PvtUrist was scum, day 2 when we tried to lynch him, he would start explaining everything for Thespio and Thespio wouldn't be there to correct him. I've seen it so much, and Thespio seems to understand this, too, which makes me think he's prolly scum, using AtE.

Up until this point, I had been doubting my read on Thespio, but the threats to self-vote is so bad and talk of self-lynch over no-lynch is so bad, I don't think I can fathom him flipping town.

In addition he had some weird interactions at beginning of day, his teasing flip w/ his read on elements was weird, and his pushing of lurkers is bad. I also don't like how he dismissed the Skellen v Loopdan as TvT and Loopdan chimed in. Anyways, I'm super distracted right now, so I will get back to this later, but as of right now, I feel pretty solid on my scum read on Thespio.

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

That's fair, I have no intent of hammering while there's valid discussion going on.

Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot), Pvts still is my main scum read, I understand your reasoning (if im scum and he started on me me why would he leave) I would like more from him. After this I would say i TR you. ill post a reply to all of it in about 2 hours.

Yeah sure. It's mafia, dude, I understand. What happens in game, stays in game. I'm a bit antagonistic myself, but with purpose. I understand you wanting to see more from him, I wouldn't mind more myself. I do see town motivation in a few of his posts, however, and I don't see that in Loopdan, and due to Loopdan's (I think it was 125?) I don't think PvtUrist and Loopdan can both be scum => PvtUrist is town.

I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again:

I understand distancing and bussing. I've played with people that exclusively bus. I've been scum when my partner said "it sucks to be you, but I exclusively bus day 1" (that was offsite)

This isn't that.

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

He refuses responsibility for PvtUrist's flip. The big two reasons scum bus is for town!cred or to avoid getting scum!cred. He gets no town!cred if he takes no responsibility for his vote. He knows PvtUrist will flip town and he doesn't want to be looked at as a guy who's pushing the wagon.

These games are from years ago, ive changed, i understand personal loss for general gain, I became a stockbroker, got a job with the govt, learning to play losses is important, and I didnt understand it then, read my more recent games.

Anndd this is why I don't like meta-ing people. I still disagree with you, but as long as you're not disagreeing with yourself this isn't a point of contention and I really would rather not worry about it right now, because it's distracting.

As far as where we go from here, I want very strongly to lynch Loopdan today. I don't want to lynch you right now. I can try and re-summarize my loopdan argument, but I feel what you want are specifics, and if I give you specifics you'll just end up with a post wall that is larger than the sum of the ones I posted earlier, so I highly recommend you read that more carefully if/when you get the chance (if you haven't already)


===============================================

Some things I'd like you to examine, taken this is your reason for TRing Loopdan:

Ive leaned town on him for a while, The reason I like loopdan is I read him town after his spat, it genuinely seemed TvT.

1. After the spat, he's quick to call himself town (as well as the other person). He's so quick to avoid that turning into a real confrontation. If he really believed it was TvT, why didn't he say so sooner? His flip was awkward.
2. The whole spat was weird. Skellen called out Loopdan for doing dumb stuff, Loopdan got evasive and explained why he did the stuff he did (which is exactly what he told elements NOT to do only a few posts before).
3. Look at his 109 in contrast with his 54. He admits that pushing lurkers is dumb and then he pushes a lurker later.
4. Look at his 58 and 59 in contrast to his 92. He accidentally gives out a town read and then implies he will retcon it.

Oh also

I find this interesting, do you think Loopdan to some degree has aligned with me for favor? it does look like he defends me to some degree. I still want more, an active town is a happy town, but I lean town after reexamining them.

You two have really weird interactions. I do not like your interactions. I don't like how he was really willing to change his vote so quickly in RVS and from 109 to 125 but he wouldn't put his vote on you when he didn't like what you said.

Greetings all. I'm at work right now and need to read the thread a bit deeper (especially regarding the Loopdan stuff going on), but here's a question to buy a little time for that so this slot isn't totally useless.

Enter, why do you think Loopdan's vote on Ptv isn't distancing/bussing? You seem to know exactly what that looks like, and I want to know exactly why you think its unlikely here.

*deep breath*

Check out my 212, it's six posts above yours. Also my 201 says the same thing. If you have specific questions about that, feel free to ask.

@Thespio: I'm working on PoE as far as who Loopdan's partner is right now, I'm not ignoring you.

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

@Skellen - I'll agree that PvtUrist is lurker-y. The thing with lurkers is that scum!lurking often looks like town!lurking from what I've seen. Your read seems like you're applying your thoughts to his absence, and while I agree with that process, I would ask you this: Considering cases against Loopdan and PvtUrist, which appears scummier to you, and why? If you townread Loopdan, please explain in depth. I understand that PvtUrist doesn't look like an example of town, but from my perspective it looks like you're projecting your own reasoning on his absence (which isn't necessarily wrong, it just might sway your read further towards scum or town than you wanted to.) Since most of my points against Loopdan are relatively concrete (as far as I'm aware), and I doubt they could be scum together, I doubt PvtUrist is scum. I would really like to hear your opinions on this.

As far as Loopdan's partner, let's examine the possibilities:

1. PvtUrist: Loopdan doesn't take responsibility for his vote, like he should if he knew PvtUrist was flipping scum. => I think PvtUrist is pretty much conftown when Loopdan flips scum
2. Skellen: Skellen reads like town to me. 125 makes them look town, I think. I think it's pretty rare for scum to call other scum hard town read without other townies agreeing, also the debate at the beginning makes me think it's TvS => Skellen is town.
3. muh316: Kinda weird vote from Loopdan in RVS. Also second one to jump on Loopdan after I came in, and continued to press. Looks kinda town to me (although there really isn't much interaction between them, muh316 calls out Loopdan, Loopdan says "later" :/ ).
4. Munchmellow: Again, not a lot of interactions outside an RVS vote from Loopdan. She's placed suspicion on him before. Reading her as pretty town-y.
5. elements: Weird interaction between elements and Loopdan on Loopdan's side, again. :/ And again, we see another case of elements calling him out for being weird.

You might begin to be seeing a pattern here. Everyone here has called Loopdan out for weird things. I think most of the people in this group are less likely to be his partner than the other two, but it's pretty hard. Elements, for example, could easily be just following other people's example by calling out Loopdan out for his weirdness. If I had to pick a name out of this list on the spot, it would prolly be elements based on the fact that Loopdan didn't vote him when elements made a weird move w/ his votes, even though he did vote muh316. Although that might point more towards muh316, as it seems to me that Loopdan is more scared of pushing a wagon on town.
====

6. Thespio: weird interactions w/ Loopdan. One of the only people to not call him out for weird stuff in the game thread.
7. MissDeadbeat/MagikHorse: Actually nothing this game. Loopdan was awful quick to get his vote off MissDeadbeat. This signals to me that she's the most likely here to be scum. In addition, he took full responsibility for his vote on her. My suspicion is that he saw Thespio vote her, thought to himself "Oh crap better bus her, it's maybe over for her" and then swapped to PvtUrist once he saw a way out.

My conclusion: Of every player here, I would really like to see more from MagikHorse (and if I don't, I will be a very big fan of their lynch on day 2).

@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?

I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

Got too distracted so I am keeping it short. Since he is the other hot topic in the vote count at the moment it's next to Thespio. Regarding him I am a little bit indecisive. Rethinking his play yesterday made him suspicious in my eyes, his defence is a mixed bag for me now. I think his reads seem comprehensible from his point of view, but then right after that he defends Loopdan twice with pitting him against PvtUrist. Ugh. Why even doing someone else's job? I think Loopdan did even the same with Thespio? If these two are the scum team it's more turning into a slapstick team. This is actually fuel for Enter's original scumteam Loopdan/Thespio theory, although

it's becoming so obvious that I just can't believe it can be that easy.

Otherwise his defence is rather predictable, I mean I share his suspicion of PvtUrist, but I was hoping his opinion of Loopdan would be a little bit more ambitious as I kind of hinted yesterday. However now his opinion seems to change, I am not sure how to interpret that. Either he is really questioning him more or it's the last effort to burn some bridges between him and Loopdan, although I might think it's almost too late for that. Guess it will also depends now too what Loopdan's next move is and where Thespio's new read is leading to.

There should be a "like" button for mafia. Bolded is why I'm spending so long trying to reconsider.

In post 223, Thespio wrote:
@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?


I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

Ok if I flip town who do you lynch?

Im rereading the game in between work (going very slow) just want to establish your PoE

If you flip town considering what?

We lynch you day 1: No matter what you flip, I flip Loopdan tomorrow.
We lynch Loopdan day 1: He flips scum, we re-examine. I've shared my thoughts on this. He flips town, I seriously reconsider PvtUrist

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

@Skellen - I'll agree that PvtUrist is lurker-y. The thing with lurkers is that scum!lurking often looks like town!lurking from what I've seen. Your read seems like you're applying your thoughts to his absence, and while I agree with that process, I would ask you this: Considering cases against Loopdan and PvtUrist, which appears scummier to you, and why? If you townread Loopdan, please explain in depth. I understand that PvtUrist doesn't look like an example of town, but from my perspective it looks like you're projecting your own reasoning on his absence (which isn't necessarily wrong, it just might sway your read further towards scum or town than you wanted to.) Since most of my points against Loopdan are relatively concrete (as far as I'm aware), and I doubt they could be scum together, I doubt PvtUrist is scum. I would really like to hear your opinions on this.

I will admit I might be a little too hard with him here (PvtUrist). I think for me it's ultimately difficult to read him, when he is so "streamlined".

I agree that Loopdan/PvtUrist is not possible and no, I can definitely rule Loopdan out as townread at the moment as I am not fond of his behaviour after you started your attack. I am just not sure yet if he ends up as neutral or scum for me. Please wait a little bit for my read on Loopdan, I was orginally planning to wait for an improved defence of him, but since I am most likely not here tomorrow and I am getting frustrated with his stalling, which looks like playing on time until it hits one of the other two, I am rereading everything at the moment (including your guys exchange *shiver*).

I personally do not think Loopdan plans on responding to the large slew of questions I have given him. Based on his most recent post, he appears to be ignoring me.

At this point I feel like Loopdan to me seems scummy, I honestly believe i missed most of his actions over the weekend when I was at my friends funeral. Apologize guys, I do want to say that Pvt is more scummy in my book, them hitting at each other doesnt make either mutually exclusive and I would prefer we lynch Pvt at this point.

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

So we play my logic with the self lynch, we have a guaranteed town if he flips green, if he is we know where to go, if he isnt we got scum, then there is a possibility of a perfect game. Im hesitant but its logical, give me some time to mull it over.

I live and breathe for the perfect game. Think of it this way, if we flip Loopdan we have a 50% chance of confirmed town.

At this point I feel like Loopdan to me seems scummy, I honestly believe i missed most of his actions over the weekend when I was at my friends funeral. Apologize guys, I do want to say that Pvt is more scummy in my book, them hitting at each other doesnt make either mutually exclusive and I would prefer we lynch Pvt at this point.

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

Also I dont think they are Mutually Exclusive, meaning they could be teammates just seperating, counter counter deal, Ill vote loopdan if we get loopdan to talk about Pvt and I think its fishy. Before we he flips I would like it enitrely ruled out that he is scum.

I doubt he will talk much at all. He's probably realized his hole is too deep, but I'm more than willing to wait. I don't want to lynch PU today.

@Skellen - thanks for that unannounced L-1 vote.

Please contribute in some positive form instead of being passive aggressive and lurking. Weren't you gung-ho about lynching lurkers earlier?

@Skellen, the unvote was not necessary.

@Enter, if he flips town how do you see Muh316 at this point?

Doesn't change my read, really regardless of what Loopdan flips.

Well, I'm not jumping on that wagon. I read everything, I get where they (mostly Enter) are coming from, but something smells fishy here. It seems like Loopdan reads obv scum to a lot of people and I just don't see it coming from an IC. The only thing that really stood out for me is policy vote on MDb- @Loopdan, can you explain that.
So, if he flips scum - lesson learned for me not to trust my gut next time.
My read on PvT also changed to null-scum.

If Loopdan didn't have the title of IC, would that change how you read him?

Oh yeah, before I forget it, here's an old post from the Mafia Discussion sub-forum, where Enter brings up an effective way for scum to derail a game.

Enter's discussion topic he started 3 years ago (under his Extrapolated Eagle login) discussing how effective it is when scum hardcore tunnels a player who would otherwise be hard to lynch.

There seems to be an incredibly frustrating site meta that has developed since the last time I played about 2 years ago of hardcore tunneling a singular player, often a lynch that would be otherwise harder to achieve and it's getting under my skin. I have actually seen little to no tunneling from town in my recent games and deathtunneling has seemed to come almost exclusively from scum. I think this needs to be addressed, because this is ridiculous and frustrating to deal with.

Here's how it benefits the mafia:
1. It keeps doubt in the minds of town players that said tunneled player is town even if said player would often be considered strong town by day 2/day 3.
2. It keeps the victim from calling the predator out for fear of having "OMGUS!" screamed like a professional soccer player falls to the ground holding his leg and yells in pain when the ball is taken from him.
3. It gets the scum a town read because it's seen as "pushing his reads"
4. The scum player doesn't have to interact with the rest of the game or share reads other than "<victims name> needs to die, they're obvscum"

This needs to be callled out as scum like every time it's seen because it almost always comes from scum.

It's almost like 1, I've grown, and 2, I'm not tunneling you. I called you scum, you freaked out and accused me of confbias and tunneling. Quit your pathetic tirade and play the darn game.

@Enter - I didn't freak out. You kept yelling in ALL CAPS and repeating the same points over and over again, so I stopped reading your posts.

You did freak out. I wasn't yelling, I was posting important points in all caps because I know people skim my posts. You saw it and got offended. That's a you problem.

You weren't reading my posts in the first place, you were cherry picking and you know it. You didn't even properly respond to my first post, you tried to just dismiss it by calling me bad town or scum.

Your current path of action right now by ignoring me when I call you out for using words improperly (tunneling, confbias) when I call you out for multi-posting (8 in a row? What even is that --especially as an IC?) when I call you out for bad play (sheeping another player? When has that ever been acceptable?) is child-like.

Stop dropping passive aggressive comments and saying my points are bad when you admit you're not even reading them. Stop playing in this off-the-cuff rage. It looks bad on you as a person and it's not beneficial to the mafia game in any form or fashion.

He has 47 posts in this game (most are rather large). Virtually all of them here are pushing a lynch on me.

He had 49 in that game (most not that large). Only 16 have anything to do with NSG, and they pale in comparison to his push here.

So why did he characterize his push on NSG a "tunnel" but says his push on me isn't a tunnel?

I had a constant push on NSG over time. I had like three posts before you started insisting I was confbiasing and tunneling, and you didn't even provide counter points for all my points.

His 16 posts on NSG in his last game... that was tunneling. But not this.

[Loopdan]

Please answer the questions I asked you.

Post them again (concisely). I'm not wading through your posts to find them.

[Loopdan]

Do you think sheeping is acceptable? If yes, provide circumstances/reasons.

Yes. When you don't have strong reads but want to assist a player you are TRing.

If town has a time advantage over scum, but scum has an information advantage, why would you feel comfortable not scumhunting and instead sheeping someone else's vote?

I think I've already answered this but ok. I wasn't comfortable with it. That's why I made clear in 127 that

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

Why were you thinking about Thespio when you posted asking why Skellen was town?

I mixed up two players names.

Your other questions are loaded, dumb, or have already been answered.

[Loopdan]

Why is this a scum tunnel and not a town tunnel besides your flimsy meta reasonings?

I thought he was possibly just badtown until 277. The strat described there looks spot on.

[Loopdan]

Loopdan I think your misrepping him to a certain degree, we clashed and while you came up it’s because we discussed our scum reads. I think you make a good point if you flip town I’ll seriously go concider a PVT and Enter team. It will guarantee we get atleast 1 scum though, I think you are cornered and throwing wild punches, before I flipped you were nonchalant and showing low effort. It seems survivalistic, then I’m feeling Pvt, I’m not close to lynching Enter, if you picked a fight with him I might have flipped.

If you flip town I move from there.

Yeah I am probably pushing more than the situation warrants. That's a pretty typical reaction that I can admit to falling into.

Still, when someone posts 40 ridiculously lengthy posts about you in a short period of time, and basically ignores everyone else in the game (yes, I know he did engage with you in a few posts, too) it can get you going.

I'm not playing a gambit or trying to manipulate my way out of the lynch. I'm serious when I say you guys should vote me or Enter here.

[Loopdan]

meh, that's rhetorical in context

In post 223, Thespio wrote:
@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?


I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

Ok if I flip town who do you lynch?

Im rereading the game in between work (going very slow) just want to establish your PoE

[Loopdan]

Magik - Check Muh's most recent post. That's what I was talking about when I said this...

What he is doing is popping in sporadically and selectively responding to the easy stuff.

He's voting me but has

nothing

to say about everything that has happened since his previous post (159)?

[Loopdan]

Whatever happened to "Me or Enter today" from 291? Why suddenly redirect attention to Muh?

It's still me or Enter, but I'm not gonna let muh's scuminess slide here without it being pointed out.

[Loopdan]

I would call what Enter did tunneling, btw. And Enter has done it before on a town player, so it is NAI or it even makes him town.

Do you mean "as a town player"? If so please share the game.

[Loopdan]

A point where a point is due with Thespio, but as I said earlier it really irks me that people are still hunting via team searching. Until a red flip happens, that is going to be stupidly inaccurate and makes it look like you're just lining up a possible lynch for tomorrow. It's not a good way to scumhunt this early on.

Yeah there has been way too much of this day1.

[Loopdan]

Elements is probably town.

[Loopdan]

Before I'm hammered I want everyone to post the following info. Just copy and paste and add your answer. No explanations needed. Just a name for each.

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is:
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is:

[Loopdan]

Elements is probably town.

Why do you say this? Until their latest two posts I've seen nothing notable or memorable from them, and they're the one scumread I have besides you and potentially Muh for that sort of behavior.

Elements is able to simultaneously recognize two truths: 1) Enter's push on me looks bad, 2) I haven't done a good job defending against that case. It just looks like a townie mindset. It could be scum hedging and hoping to mislynch town!enter tomorrow, but feels more town to me.

I'm think you have similar thoughts, but you seem less sure on #1.

[Loopdan]

Quick question to everyone not named Enter: Do you have any idea what his current read is on you?

[Loopdan]

"Less sure" is one way to put it, given that I don't believe #1 at all given how far out I'd have to go for that. I'm more concerned that you're a combination of too scummy to be scum and overly eager to sacrifice yourself, whish is a big reason why you're not lower on my list.

Hm. Can you concisely summarize Enter's case on me?

[Loopdan]

@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

[Loopdan]

@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

Can you explain that a little bit more for us newbies?

So there are two things at work here.

1) "Too scummy for scum" is the idea that sometimes town players act in ways that look incredibly scummy. Like so scummy that scum would be too self-aware to say those things.

2) Thespio's post is an example of this because scum would know I am town and could use it as an excuse to lynch town!Enter the next day. It's looks like how scum set up mis-lynches before the first player's alignment has even been revealed.

So when I say this is an example of too scummy for scum, I'm saying Thespio's post looks scummy, but too scummy for scum to actually make it because they would be trying to sound townie.

[Loopdan]

@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

I dont understand, do you think he is town tunneling you? You are still my pick for today I just dont want anything to stop this clash, i want to see it to its end so D2 regardless of what happens I know what you both think. I do believe one of you is scum, i understand he did basically tunnel you, he did it even when confronting me. You arent out of the fire yet. But your survivalism does seem town now that you are actually trying.

I'm think there's a chance he is town-tunneling me, but I think there's a greater chance he's just scum. Enter has not shown equivocation or doubt or puzzlement about anything. That doesn't read as town.

[Loopdan]

Enter says I called it a tunnel after only ten hours. Sure. He also had 17 mostly lengthy posts where he aggressively argued that I was scum during that time. And during that time he never once tried to engage me directly to determine my alignment. He came into the game with his mind already made up. I actually started off addressing his concerns in 143, 145, 160, 161, 162, 163, and 170. During that time he posted nine times while mis-repping what I'd said and lying about what I'd done (remember when he quoted my posts out of order to say I encouraged town to scumhunt and

then

I sheeped Skellen's vote. Yeah it was the other way around).

After I recognized he had no interest in actually sorting me, but had clearly already made up his mind, I post this:

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions, indicating you have zero interest in actually sorting my alignment. Like I said before, you are either confbiasing or scum. I'm not going to get sucked into your never-ending tunnel of misrepresentations and outright lies (see 161 for just one example).

If other players think Enter has some valid points and want to point those out to me I'll be glad to engage and answer as best I can. As far as I can tell Enter's case on me is that I didn't do enough to advance the game-state (which I already admitted before he showed up) and that I placed 6 (oops I mean 4) votes without posting huge walls of explanation.

After I'm done reading some of Enter's prior games I'll come back with (hopefully) a better stance on Badtown v Scum.

So yeah, that's the background on me first calling it a tunnel.

[Loopdan]

I'm think there's a chance he is town-tunneling me, but I think there's a greater chance he's just scum. Enter has not shown equivocation or doubt or puzzlement about anything. That doesn't read as town.

What is you reaction to him differentiating a push form a tunnel?

I don't understand this question.

[Loopdan]

I don't like that Loopdan is calling for 1v1. It feels off to me.

This literally means nothing. Explain.

[Loopdan]

@Enter, was there something specific you were hunting for?

This is a bad question. You should read his ISO yourself and determine if he was hunting for anything.

[Loopdan]

Ok so youre saying if it was a push there would have been actual questions and statements that he wanted a reply to?

Not necessarily. But if he didn't have tunnel vision you would expect to see some doubt, some curiosity, some type of interaction with the person you suspect of being scum. He didn't attempt to do this until after I told him I was done with him.

[Loopdan]

Do you really think he's going to come on here and say "I was 100% sure Loopdan was scum and so I didn't have to ask him anything, just drive his wagon to his lynch"?

Because he isn't going to say that.

You can't sort players by

asking

them their intent behind their actions. You have to determine their intent

by their actions

. The exception would be when their actions are ambiguous and you think clarification is necessary to pin them down to something. But there was nothing ambiguous about Enter's play.

[Loopdan]

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

Updated:

Town

Skellen
Elements
Munchmellow
MagikHorse
Thespio
PvtUrist
Enter
Muh316

Scum

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

In other news Muh is scum and should be investigated at night.

[Loopdan]

Ouch. I'm dumb, and I missed that somehow. If you could fix it with why you moved your vote off MDb to start, that would be super great.

I've answered this twice already. MDb was better than my RVS vote. Then Skellen Townes it up big time and sheeping a strong TR while I reread the game was better than the MDb vote.

Also, if you could put a line there for why you think the things you thought, maybe?

I think I've already explained the extremes of my readslist enough.

Also please talk about what happened after you placed your vote on PvtUrist to give you what I assume are scumreads on MagikHorse and Munchmellow, seeing as you didn't have any scumreads when you placed your vote on PvtUrist.

Why are you assuming I am scumreading them?

[Loopdan]

^do you know a pr?

No.

Did you just softclaim a pr?

No. And stop talking about who may or not be one.

[Loopdan]

I still don't get what you mean. Unless you just have your timeline mixed-up on when I voted Pvt and when I posted that readslist.

[Loopdan]

inb4 Munch and Pvt are the scumteam with their combined 21 total posts so far this game

[Loopdan]

That's a joke people, relax.

[Loopdan]

He's correct in that outing your towniest reads near EOD can help scum choose their lynch. But notice I did not ask you for your towniest read in the event I flip town. The wording of these two questions was specifically chosen to avoid helping scum.

The reason I asked who is towniest if I flip scum is because I want town on day2 to be thinking about

why

they were TRing other players day1, and if their TR was based on me being scum they need to re-evaluate. Notice I didn't ask who is scum if I flip scum, because that is irrelevant.

The wording of these two questions was specifically chosen to help town day2 and to avoid helping scum make a NK decision.

[Loopdan]

if their TR was based on me being scum they need to re-evaluate.

This is truth regardless if you flip today or not.

This is my biggest problem with it. One of the questions is completely useless to us

if he's going to flip scum

(but sure helps his buddy a lot) and the other looks like it's just there to make the other one look less scummy.

I bolded the problem with your argument.

If you are town, your problem is that once you have convinced yourself that you've caught scum you are unable to see town motivations in any of their actions. If you are scum, your problem is that you can't fake town behavior that displays uncertainty.

[Loopdan]

Please don't let a hammer drop without allowing me one more post.

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

[Loopdan]

A lot of his recent posts are weird.

[Loopdan]

No, this is your problem. If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad. Stop trying to put it off on me. I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

Do you really think I should have encouraged everyone to answer: "Who is your biggest townread if I flip town?"

Uh, no.

That would do exactly what you claim my questions accomplish: help scum determine a NK

[Loopdan]

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

You are at L-1. I would think there is no reason to hold anything back any longer. Why not using the time now instead of waiting until a countdown starts?

I want to hear more from Pvt, Munch, and Muh first. My reads are moving quickly atm so I'd rather just do it once.

[Loopdan]

No, this is your problem. If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad. Stop trying to put it off on me. I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

Do you really think I should have encouraged everyone to answer: "Who is your biggest townread if I flip town?"

Uh, no.

That would do exactly what you claim my questions accomplish: help scum determine a NK

The fact that you try to put these words in my mouth after I explicitly said not to answer these questions is just one more reason you look scummy.

Dude, you literally just said...

If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad.

[Loopdan]

Well in context it certainly looked that way...

[Loopdan]

Yeah I've slowly come to the realization that Enter is likely town here. What Magik just said is pretty much reading my mind.

[Loopdan]

Also what Magik just is pretty damn townie.

[Loopdan]

If Loopdan-Enter is TvT then scum have no reason to advance the game.

So who isn't advancing the game?

ATTENTION INVESTIGATIVE PR: If I die here, investigate Enter tonight, and if he's town, think hard on this .

[Loopdan]

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

[Loopdan]

Here's the thing: Everybody posting here recently is showing genuine-looking frustration.

Both scum are likely among the inactive players:
Munchmellow
Elements
Muh316
PvtUrist

There's an outside chance of scum!Thespio. I've been going back and forth on that these last pages but can't nail him down.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

[Loopdan]

Also UNVOTE:

[Loopdan]

@Enter - If any of Pvt, Munch, or Elements are scum they could hammer to avoid town moving discussion past Loopdan-Enter. Although now that I'm talking about this it's unlikely.

479 gives my most recent thoughts on the game. From that inactive scum pool, I think Elements is towniest. But that's not by much. None of them have contributed.

[Loopdan]

Never lynch Magik.

[Loopdan]

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

[Loopdan]

Why would a scum player self-hammer?

To minimize discussion if they know they are going to be lynched anyway.

[Loopdan]

Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?

"if you so strongly feel that you're town".

VOTE: Muh316

[Loopdan]

That phrase is very unlikely to come from the mind of a town player.

[Loopdan]

This is the most emotionally taxing game of Mafia I've ever played.

And it's day1 in a Newbie.

[Loopdan]

Unless you have a better explanation as to why the player people townread the most if he flips scum is a question that should ever be answered if he's town?

Yeah... The better explanation is that I'm town so that question can be useful day2 when day1 reads are re-evaluated. But I've already said this so please just stop.

[Loopdan]

Enter is basically confirmed town to me at this point. Scum would at least try and fake some uncertainty.

At the risk of subjecting this game to a 4,000 word rebuttal, I will say I've never seen confirmation bias this severe.

[Loopdan]

I am the worst scumhunter ever to exist if Loopdan is not scum.

I'm going to make this my signature once this game ends.

[Loopdan]

@Enter - What do you think the odds are that muh is scum?

[Loopdan]

The push elsewhere is almost scummy based solely on the fact that we'd get so much information from his flip as town, even if for some unholy reason he managed to flip town.

I need to know what information you get when I flip town.

[Loopdan]

@Thespio - I see you just logged-in recently. Why are you avoiding this game?

[Loopdan]

@mod - requesting prod for PvtUrist

It's been 47 hours since he posted.

[Loopdan]

I will accept death at the hands of MagikHorse with no ill-will, knowing that he will rend my soul from body with reluctance and dignity. Perchance he will delay the act until such time as all current questions have been answered to his satisfaction, as this be my last wish.

But I'm also good with lynching muh when everyone else shows up.

[Loopdan]

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

Muh you missed this.

[Loopdan]

@Thespio - I see you just logged-in recently. Why are you avoiding this game?

It’s auto loges in on my phone. I was going to a movie and needed to check the time :p I’m turning in now. Kind of think it’s odd you’re being so survivalistic

Site rules do require that I play to my wincon, so of course I'd prefer to live than die. But I think my play right now is actually more focused on increasing town's chances of getting something helpful out of the remainder of the day, as opposed to me just surviving. If I was scum just concerned with surviving, my best course of action would have been to push against you, as you are already at L-2.

Also please answer 477 when you get a chance.

[Loopdan]

This day has all but ended, I will hammer Loop unless someone obliterated this offer in the next few hours

Please wait for my reply to the above, remember that openly communicating is beneficial to town!

You are correct. And you could also unvote to ensure a premature hammer doesn't drop.

[Loopdan]

PvtUrist is being replaced and the day should not end until a replacement has an opportunity to read and post thoughts.

Depending on how long it takes to get a replacement confirmed, our mod might even extend the deadline.

[Loopdan]

This day has all but ended, I will hammer Loop unless someone obliterated this offer in the next few hours

Please state your opinion in muh316.

[Loopdan]

And note that Thespio is concerned with a hammer dropping too soon
But still hasn't unvoted to remove the possibility

[Loopdan]

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

@Thespionyou missed this

[Loopdan]

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

@Skellen - you missed this

[Loopdan]

If there's a doc they should protect Magik. He may be your only hope.

[Loopdan]

You missed this.

I asked for "a couple sentences or bullet points" not an Enteresque novella.

[Loopdan]

newbie games with stricter rules it is common for experienced players to get bored playing scum and drop out.

This is counter to my experience in Newbie games.

Often experienced players as scum will lurk and play with low activity. Is that what you mean? If so, is that how you see my play this game?

[Loopdan]

ngl loopdan, you're starting to annoy me

OK. I'm here. What do you want to talk about?

[Loopdan]

Dude... You really think this is what giving up looks like? How many posts have I made since being put at L-2? I have done more questioning and pushing than anybody else since that point.

Yes, I was super frustrated that you guys all fell for Enter's dumb tunnel on me. It felt like nobody was even reading the game and I felt helpless at that point to do anything to avoid a lynch.

And I still am helpless to avoid the lynch, but here I am still trying to help win the game by getting all of you to explain your reason for voting me. You think that comes from scum? It's been clear I'm the lynch for a loooong time so why am I still here? Answer that and you'll realize my alignment is obvious.

[Loopdan]

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

I think that your early game was/is flighty, you dont really contribute (either due to time or a lack of effort) and when you get to L-2 you are basically done with the game, in newbie games with stricter rules it is common for experienced players to get bored playing scum and drop out. This to me is the first red flag, the second is that you recognize that what is going on right now hurts town, the clash between you and enter, but you recognize that you have to play to win, imo this is a scum slip because town isnt winning by only focusing on you two (you acknowledged this) and yet you still push it. The final red flag is this question, I already stated why i was flipping onto you, This seems to distract from the actual lynch almost like an effort to dissuade us, paired with you asking for extra time (even if it helps town) it seems LAME as well as opportunistic.

Thats why I'm keeping my vote, if i saw you push everyone i might have stayed off you when i hesitated earlier. I was hoping that my initial townie read was good but I cant get myself back to that mindset.

@Horse

hence my previous question whom Loopdan has now parroted back in a similar manner.

Why dont you find this off? someone who has played all spectrum in the same 4 day span from pity to a hard push, no parroting you for more time. Why is this ok for you?


PEDIT:
Didnt miss it loop just writing it. I havent removed my vote because I was midpost, I literally had to delete it because someone did it while i was writing this.

So your case is:
1) Early game was flighty then he was done with the game when he for to L-2.
2) I'm focused on a 1v1 against Enter and this is detrimental to town
3) I asked you to concisely state your case on me but you've already stated your case so I'm just trying to distract from my lynch.

If this is incorrect please clarify

[Loopdan]

Thespio - If I was trying to survive at all costs I would have pushed to lynch you, since you are already at L-2.

[Loopdan]

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

So this is a bad bad post if you are town. If you think I'm scum you should want me to keep talking. You already have your lynch, why try to shut up someone you think is scum?

[Loopdan]

I want everyone on wagon to state their reasons for voting me so that day2 town can figure out who was sincere and who was scum

So sure, all of what you said is important, but is what I wrote a fair summation?

[Loopdan]

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

This doesn't line up with what you just said about 562 being utterly irrelevant.

[Loopdan]

I gotta go.

One of you should unvote until our replacement arrives and has time to read.

[Loopdan]

Because if it's not clear...

I am at L-1

[Loopdan]

@Horse, backup, are you seeing elements post too?? he literally recognizes someone as town and is like 'eh. killem'

It's even worse than that. He isn't like aw too bad my TR is being lynched I guess I'll hammer him at deadline to avoid a no-lynch...

Nope.

It's hey let's lynch my TR right now because all this extra discussion isn't helpful.

[Loopdan]

Skellen, thanks for that post with your explanation of the vote on me. That is helpful.

Regarding directing PRs... it is not anti-town for someone who is about to flip to give advice on night actions. It's just another way to make my thoughts known. And yes the PR(s) will make their own decisions but I know that when I'm a PR and a townie flips I go back to reread their posts when making my night action choice. For example, let's say there is a doc in the game who isn't sure who to protect between their two top townreads. How can they decide? Well a townie just flipped and he said Magik was his top TR. So it can be helpful.

[Loopdan]

I would hammer a townread at deadline to avoid no lynch (not a strong townread). But to rush hammering a townread... I do find it suspicious.

At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "i think loopdan is town, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

This is not really an explanation at all. You just repeated what you already said.

You were TRing me and SRing Enter. Then with 3 days left and a possible time extension due to a replacement player coming in, and the game finally moving on from the unproductive Loopdan v Enter escapades, you

then

want to lynch your TR because "At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town" and your TR's lynch "will tell us the most information."

You need to explain two things: Why is the current game-state detrimental to town? Why will my lynch tell us the most information?

VOTE: Elements

[Loopdan]

Stop repeating my questions Loop >.<

I did ask first.

[Loopdan]

Hi RCE. Are you a Radiant Cowbells alt or is that a coincidence?

[Loopdan]

You claim that I only TR those who TR me and only SR people who SR me. This is objectively false and you have no excuse to not know this, as I've stated I'm TRing you. I'm also SRing Elements who is TRing me. I'm TRing Skellen who I think is SRing me.

And I have been posting my reads repeatedly. If they aren't crystal clear here is where I am right now:

Town:
Skellen
Magik
Enter
Munch

Town-lean:
Thespio

Scum:
Elements
Muh316
PvT

[Loopdan]

Enter, every time you show up you derail the conversation away from actual useful interactions and just rehash everything you've already said. It's not helpful. Even if you assume I'm scum, why wouldn't you want to see me engaging with other players? Don't you want your scum suspect to keep talking so they or their partner will reveal something?

You keep calling me spammy. I hope the other players will check my ISO and make that determination themselves. I've generated quite a lot of content that should be useful to town, regardless of what you think of my alignment.

You keep saying I'm not posting reads. Then when I show you where I've posted reads or post updated reads you move the goalposts and say I'm scum for changing my reads.

You keep saying my reads are based on how others are reading me. When I show you how this isn't true, you move the goalposts again by looking for a possible scummy explanation for why my reads aren't based on how others are reading me.

At some point I hope you will recognize that you don't just get to change your arguments every time they are shown to be wrong.

I'm sure after I flip you will burden the players left in this game with pages of text complaining about how you've never seen a town player play so scummy and how I ruined the game. But this one's on you.

[Loopdan]

[Loopdan]

@Elements - I appreciate your big reads posts. Before you said you wanted to lynch your TR (me), I had been town-lean on you. But after you said we should lynch me because all this talk was hurting town, I figured maybe I was wrong. Now you've posted detailed reads, but haven't addressed the concerns that myself and others have about you.

If you are town, it would be helpful if you'd answer the questions in 605.

[Loopdan]

I don't know what Elements stance is early game so I have nothing to compare it to. A scum flip on one clears the other as town though...I think.

Link me how the Elements wagon started then I'll iso him and get back to you on it.

It started shortly after 563 when he voted his TR.

[Loopdan]

...as an unannounced L-1.

[Loopdan]

If he's scum, then he has to "feel" town. A scum player has to fake the feeling of being a town player which is why I said that phrase. My question was also pretty clear. If you're town, then surely some of the players on your wagon are scum, yet 3/4 of his reads were off his wagon at that point. A town player would probably suspect the people on their own wagon. I felt like this is something that as a town player, you can read these things. As a scum, you have to fake your reads which also creates slip-ups, like the one I just described.

I'm going to break this down because there are two points I want to make.

If he's scum, then he has to "feel" town. A scum player has to fake the feeling of being a town player which is why I said that phrase.

In post 490, you said, "Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?"

This could just be a case of being awkward with your word choice, but it's also possible (and I think more likely) that you are projecting your own mindset of trying to feel towny. How many times a game do people write "If you are town..." (in fact you just said it in the post above)? I've never seen someone say something like "if you so strongly feel that you're town."

If you're town, then surely some of the players on your wagon are scum, yet 3/4 of his reads were off his wagon at that point. A town player would probably suspect the people on their own wagon.

You should never assume there will be a certain number of scum on a wagon. I've played 20+ games in the Newbie Q. I've seen mislynches with 1-on-1-off, 2-on, and 0-on. I sort players based on their play. Wagons and vote analysis can be useful

after

you have a flip, but I would argue they should still be supplemental to your reads of day-play. I have a similar view on NK analysis. Many town losses can be attributed to town overthinking wagon composition or vote-count analysis. So no, I don't surely think some of the players on my wagon are scum just because I am town. Unlike Enter, I can separate my thoughts about how well a player plays from my thoughts on their alignment.

[Loopdan]

Who all has Loop tried to get a wagon on?

Muh, Enter, and Elements have been votes based on how I have read the game. I read on Enter changed as his tunnel deepened and I came to the conclusion that scum would have self-awareness enough to realize how bad his push looks.

Enter will probably say I was trying to get lynches on Magik's slot (109) and your slot (125), but that's because he has a hard time understanding that a vote is useful for more than just lynching.

Who all has Loop tried to get a wagon on?

[Loopdan]

I read on Enter changed

EBWOP: "My read on enter changed"

[Loopdan]

@Elements - Would you vote muh? You say muh is suspicious if I flip town. And you say I'm town. You said one of you or me are being lynched today. Why not muh instead?

[Loopdan]

I'm aware of his town-lean on muh. I'm trying to work out the inconsistencies with it.

[Loopdan]

Like it's kinda obvious he's about to pivot to SRing me to justify his vote.

[Loopdan]

@Skellen - I know what I'm asking him, and why I'm asking him. But you've done a good job throwning a wrench into it.

[Loopdan]

I don't really get why you thought that was a discussion you needed to jump into.

[Loopdan]

Enter, here's the thing. You think that because Magik and I are supporting each other that we must be scum-buddies, or that one of us is pocketing the other. I'll give you that there is a

small

chance Magik is scum and realized he could buddy me by being the only voice taking up my side against you. But I don't see that as very likely, for two reasons: 1) He didn't really come over to my side until you laid into him. 2) It's super high effort for a low payoff for scum!Magik to play out day1 like this.

I think more than anything we are reading the game in a similar way and have both felt what it's like to be at the end of one of your wall onslaughts. I'm sure that town!Magik has a place in his thoughts where I could be scum, just like I do with him, because we are both experienced enough to know that skillful players can mimic town very effectively. But this doesn't feel like I'm being pocketed. He has an underlying suspicion on my alignment, and it's hard to get that balance right when you are scum trying to pocket town.

[Loopdan]

From what I've read up to I think you're pretty off base and I still have 10 or so pages till I'm into the current game so I'd like to hold off on intent.

Here's a helpful synopsis of the game when you get caught up: Muh and/or Elements are scum.

[Loopdan]

I didn't consider the question however from the theoretical ankle as you might have meant it, my bad, this long day just tempts me to overthink everything.

No worries. I'll forgive you if you move your vote.

[Loopdan]

Actually you aren't voting right now, so change that to "I'll forgive you if you move your intended vote."

[Loopdan]

@Skellen - I'm sure you've already made this clear somewhere else, but I can't remember off the top of my head and you are here right now... If you had to pick a lynch between Muh and Elements, who do you choose?

And since I don't know if I've stated it myself: My preference is a Muh lynch.

[Loopdan]

@Magik - Let's do it.

[Loopdan]

@Elements - Would you vote muh? You say muh is suspicious if I flip town. And you say I'm town. You said one of you or me are being lynched today. Why not muh instead?

Because there are currently no votes on muh. And as i've said before we get more information when you flip

Let's say Muh and I are both at L-1. You vote me there?

[Loopdan]

His alignment.

[Loopdan]

I think pre-flip associatives are usually pointless, especially day1. But you asked, so... If muh is scum I think you are the likely partner. I would also downgrade my lock-town read on Skellen to town-lean.

But I'm more interested in what you'd do if muh was a viable lynch candidate, given your TR on me (unless you plan on changing that TR with your upcoming reads post).

[Loopdan]

That last post was a reply to Elements

[Loopdan]

^That is the towniest case that's been made against me, so you have that going for you. You make a good point that I said I'd take the lynch since I'm VT and I didn't want to risk PRs claiming, and now I've changed my mind. But in the last couple of pages the townbloc seems to be coalescing around some scum-reads.

Bottom line: If some combination of Magik, RCE, Thespio, Skellen, and Munch want to lynch you or Elements, I'm in. If they don't have confidence in either of you being scum and don't want to risk outing a PR claim, then I'll take the lynch, no complaints.

[Loopdan]

[Loopdan]

Who does that? That is either 1) someone who has completely given up or 2) a way to guilt trap us into no lynching him. Given that since that time Loopdan has re entered the game I cannot believe the first option.

Why can't you believe that a town player would give up when it looked hopeless and then be re-energized when the tide looks like it may be changing?

I think the real issue is that you and your partner were thrilled that Enter had tunneled me when he showed up, and the fact that pretty much everybody bought into it meant you wouldn't have to do much to get your day1 mislynch. And it was going to be so easy, that you could take some easy town-points by staying off the lynch and saying I was town. Then when I kept playing and producing content you were upset that the day was progressing and town was finding each other, and so you came in and said you wanted to lynch your TR.

And here we are.

[Loopdan]

In case anybody forgot, Elements has been pushing a Thespio/Enter Scum-team with me as their town victim for much of this game. In this phase of the game, he appears to be setting up a future mislynch day2 when I flip town.

We will call this the "Loopdan is Town" phase:

Spoiler: Loopdan is town

I am getting flashbacks to my first game where scum absolutely swamped the chat with basically the same points over and over again which totally discouraged anyone from even bothering to read most of it. This obviously makes me question Enter's alignment more and upon reading Thespio's iso i can definitely see the possibility of an Enter/Thespio scum team going on. At the start They had a bit of a bickering to distance themselves from each other but after a while this Thespio did a turn around and starts even emulating Enter's posts with lots of loopdan quotes and explinations why they're iffy posts. Most of his read changes on loopdan and Enter have been "upon re-reading" without rlly quoting anything or links to posts, which seems like a bit of a cop out when you're changing views on currently the biggest conflict in the game. I also don't like how many town drops? is that the right words? thespio has done e.g. "lynch me over no lynch" and "I will put him at L-1 Later but dont want to risk a LOLHammer" and "Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot)"
so yes Thespio is still my strongest scum read

As for loopdan, if they hadn't shown such a defietist attitude i might have town lean on them, but currently i don't feel enter has swayed me into thinking they're scum especially given my thoughts on them and thespiio being a team

I’ll seriously go concider a PVT and Enter team

The word consider leaves options open for scum!Thespio to take either stance on scum!Enter either bussing for town cred or "re-evalutaing" and finding Enter's tunnelling to be a "genuine town mishap". But the inclusion of Pvt gives scum!Thespio the possibilty of going doen the route of bussing but lynching Pvt instead to get a mislynch without it looking any more suspicious if he went after Enter and they flipped town. It also distances them form Enter after getting a town lynch with them he can seem less to blame by pushing the sheer volume of posts against loopdan enter made out there

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is: Thespio
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is: Enter

This is interesting, can you explain how you went from reading us as a team to reading us as polar opposites?

My thoughts are you two are scum team pushing on Loopdan, so if he flips town i will continue with that train of thought. But if loopdan flips scum that's me theory out the window and i highly doubt Enter would bus his scum partner day one so vigorously hence him being my biggest town read

Explain why Pvt isnt even on your radar? where is Loopdan?

I think Loopdan is town hence the you and enter scum team
For pvt, he is mush less active then he was when he was scum in my last game so i have a mild town lean.
But on the off chance loopdan flips scum i will have to re-think everything at which point pvt will quite possibly be a scum read

Enter's ISO

Upon looking though i found a maximum of 7 posts that didn't in some way relate to Loopdan; either pointing a finger saying he's scum, comparing how other people have played so far with him, quoting him or telling him to read properly and answer questions. Given the shear volume of post too, i don't see how this could be considered anything but tunnelling.
The other posts are somewhat nonchalant. The only one of real interest I found said something like "scum don't tend to tunnel or push town day one so they don't take responsibility for the GREEN flip" Which, taken from the Enter is scum view, could be him covering his back if loopdan flips green.

If loopdan flips scum i and more than happy to bow down to the all knowing power of Enter

The arguing between Loop and Enter. Thought this was clear enough from context.

Just double checking. I think it's either Enter scum tunnelling to get a mislynch, TvT, or Enter is some form of deity

The arguing between Loop and Enter. Thought this was clear enough from context.

Just double checking. I think it's either Enter scum tunnelling to get a mislynch, TvT, or Enter is some form of deity

Did you just list every possible option XD, its either SvT, TvT, or TvS

that is a very good point, and rather ammusing.
The order is what i think the mos likely case it:
Scum tunnel ~ 85%
TvT ~ 10%
Enter = god ~ 5%

Then when town starting syncing up and making progress with the game (and my lynch maybe looked less of a slam-dunk) we entered the "Loopdan is town but I want to lynch him" phase. Here the the goal is to hurry up and end the day, even though Elements' TR is the one who is going to die.

Spoiler: Loopdan is town but I want to lynch him

I've only just realised we've still got up to 4 days left for day one. I thought we only had 1 and a half so it the loopdan lynch was almost inevitable, my bad

My concern isn't the questions, but people saying "X is scummy because of their interactions with Y" before we've flipped Y. It's pure speculation at this point. Speculation doesn't find scum, scumhunting does. It's a pretty good way to look like your scumhunting without saying anything actually helpful though.

To clear up my whole "if loopdan is scum pvt looks scummy" thing. this isn't because if their interactions it's it eliminate enter from my list of possible scum

This day has all but ended, I will hammer Loop unless someone obliterated this offer in the next few hours

This day has all but ended, I will hammer Loop unless someone obliterated this offer in the next few hours

Please state your opinion in muh316.

Frankly at this point I have to agree with Enter that the most beneficial lynch is you. I can't think of any reads that would change if muh was flipped, whereas you've been at the centre of discussion since Enter joined. My opinion of muh doesn't come into it.

Before you go all "he doesn't want to give his opinion of muh so they must be scum buddies" i don't have much of an imporession of muh. I can see why you could think he's scum but overall they're a slight town lean for me

ngl loopdan, you're starting to annoy me

ngl loopdan, you're starting to annoy me

OK. I'm here. What do you want to talk about?

I just want to lynch you so we can see your flip and get on with the game rather than these last few stagnant pages

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

I would hammer a townread at deadline to avoid no lynch (not a strong townread). But to rush hammering a townread... I do find it suspicious.

At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "i think loopdan is town, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

No big deal if you don't want to read all of those again, but the worst are...

I would hammer a townread at deadline to avoid no lynch (not a strong townread). But to rush hammering a townread... I do find it suspicious.

At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "i think loopdan is town, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

And of course now we are in the inevitable "Loopdan is scum" phase of Element's reads. I won't spoiler that because it just happened a couple posts above.

[Loopdan]

Exactly.

[Loopdan]

I'm here phone posting.

I'd rather eat the lynch than force Elements to hardclaim his role.

What does everyone want/need from me in terms of final thoughts?

[Loopdan]

Also there's 15 hours left so let's not get hasty, please.

[Loopdan]

If it's a fakeclaim why was it generic? He's not going to get a town PR to counterclaim him here and it sets him up for a lynch when other PRs claim later.

[Loopdan]

A final list of reads with some explanations would always be helpful.

This is just off the top of my head in terms of general feeling towards each slot ATM. Obviously this could be much different depending on if Elements is fake-claiming.


Town (in no particular order)
Enter
Magik
RCE
Thespio

Town-lean
Skellen

Null
Munch

Scum (no particular order)
Muh
Elements


Skellen has dropped slightly due to PoE and being a little disengaged the second half of day1. But her recent posts are good. My gut screams she is town. The gamestate makes me question that.

Muh should be the lynch tomorrow.

If Elements and muh are both town then I really hope we have some smart or lucky PRs here. Otherwise town is fucked.

I'm actually starting to slightly doubt my TR on Enter but it could just be this is a very long day1 and everything starts to circle back around.

Munch feels town but again, the gamestate seems to be pointing in the other direction. (especially if Elements is town).

I didn't cover everyone so if you have questions, ask.

[Loopdan]

If Elements if fake-claiming, look at Thespio too.

[Loopdan]

Also 908 reads like Munch is Elements' partner (if Elements is scum).

[Loopdan]

Sweet death can't come soon enough...

[Loopdan]

If this game is won by a completey unexpected scumteam like Magik/RCE, I'm 100% placing the blame for this loss on Enter for creating a gamestate where experienced players could show up and take advantage of his stupid play.

[Loopdan]

Did you just "I know you are but what am I"?

Lol

[Loopdan]

You relentlessly and blindly tunneled town for the entirety of your time in this game. When others told you that you were being dumb, you said they were scum. You ignored any possible explanation for me having town motivations and twisted everything into your proof that I am scum. You said that if I am town that you are the worst scumhunter in history. Guess what? We are all about to find out that this is true and I'm going to be lolling about it in the dead thread and back here during post-game.

[Loopdan]

Yeah I've said all I want to say about Enter. It's been a not so fun game for me and I've acted emotionally a couple times now which isn't like me.

Good luck town.

[Loopdan]

Munch feels town but again, the gamestate seems to be pointing in the other direction. (especially if Elements is town).

Also 908 reads like Munch is Elements' partner (if Elements is scum).

So, if Elements is town, I am in your oppinion scum. But if he flips scum, I am his partner?!

Only that one post made it look like you could be his partner. That is by no means conclusive.

The reason I say the gamestate makes it look like you are scum if Elements is town is simply PoE, not anything associative between the two of you.

Since I won't be here tomorrow I'm just throwing down some thoughts for the remaining town.

[Loopdan]

Cool, we're getting a Loop lynch. Can't wait to see what happens.

LAMIST

[Loopdan]

I'm still here.

Anybody got any last questions?

[Loopdan]

I don't know how helpful anything I've said recently is to town. I've basically said everyone could be scum.

[Loopdan]

Two more posts to get to 200 for day1.

[Loopdan]

I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my town.