Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Petrichorus]

Well I mean, VOTE: JacksonVirgo. An interesting start to my Mafiascum Career. A pleasure to meet some of you I'm sure.

[Petrichorus]

RVS is either okay or awful dependent on who you're playing with imho. I have ran a lot of games of mafia in Meat Space and I find that, discounting lucky rolecopping and kills, you can tell if the townies have a chance by how they react in RVS. If they're being observant and seeing who is 'randomly' voting for who they've got a good chance. Harder to get that tell on a forum though, got to assume everyone is picking up on everything.

Also, Tuxedo Mask is a great name ngl.

[Petrichorus]

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aw man, that love's contagious and rather accusatory. BV You've been on here since I was last playing Runescape, how do you stay sane or have you given up on that?

[Petrichorus]

Re-read the quote, and changing my question: BV, nice to see you back I suppose. Played any mafia elsewhere in the meantime?

[Petrichorus]

But I don't wanna tunnel on you, so if other people can start posting that'd be great. I'm very bored in quarantine.

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aren't wagons considered more effective to move out of RVS?

And I like Petrichorus's intro.

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

That said, nice to hear some new voices and Gypyx, nice to have you around.

[Petrichorus]

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

[Petrichorus]

Two things wrong here.

1. Almost ALWAYS people in their reads will list themselves as town if they include themselves. Why would you put yourself as null or scum? It wouldn't make any sense.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

Personally I feel that listing yourself in any reads if it is just generic alignment is redundant, but if that's the rough convention on here then so be it. I don't find that in itself suspicious, apologies if I was not clear enough before.

I also see now that I mis-read Gyp's statement and he was highlighting Micc and Frog's posts, not solely Frog. As such, this mitigates some of the feelings I had before about 72's post.

Let's talk about this. What makes Fwog listing himself as town so suspicious, especially if you admit everyone will say they're town? If it's suspicious for 72 to defend him, why is it not suspicious for Micc? If it is 72 that is being suspicious why is your vote on Fwogcarf?

See above regarding listing and suspicions. My suspicions were peaked according to how I would usually think during a meat space game vis a vis this scenario.

To contract the events that have interested me:

Fwog - Reads Micc as town,
Gyp - Queries Fwog's Reading - highlighting Micc
72 - Immediately votes Gyp

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

[Petrichorus]

Tuxedo, in my book, ask as many questions as you feel pertinent. I'm not aware of conventions here but trying to lead the conversation is a pretty sweet gig if you're scum unless there's precedence from someone's playstyle.
Regarding quarantine, i hope we all stay safe and sane.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Petrichorus]

Define pogging in regards to MS please.

[Petrichorus]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

[Petrichorus]

Oh and regarding the bv quote here:

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aw man, that love's contagious and rather accusatory. BV You've been on here since I was last playing Runescape, how do you stay sane or have you given up on that?

I initially mis-read him and thought that he had been on here for years, thus the runescape quip. The love being accusatory was just a jovial response in reply to what I assume was a semi-sarcastic remark after casting a vote.

[Petrichorus]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

Please define 'pocket' in this context. I think I have an idea but I'd rather know for sure. Regarding scum v scum, I agree it would be a grave mistake to make such a rash what-aboutism, but that does not entirely vindicate fwog.

Either way, as discussed, with no more content coming from 72, VOTE: 72offsuit

[Petrichorus]

Hi Tuxedo,

Regarding experience on Forum Mafia: I have taken part in two custom mafia games on forums set up by an old LARP group about 5 years ago. In Meat Space I play and usually run games of Mafia as often as possible, before all this probably a few sessions every fortnight.

I always present as amicable no matter which medium I am connecting on. There's no reason to be anything other as far as I see it.

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.


72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it

wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def

. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Regarding the 'contradiction' I say immediately in this statement that in itself self listing isn't by itself 'so odd'. As such the sentence prior should instead have read "Fwog listing himself as town and being defended by 72 is suspicious" or "Fwog listing himself as town is mildly suspicious and being defended by 72 is moreso". As discussed later, a counter-wagon is still potentially a form of defense, whether meant that way or not. The contradiction discussed is a matter of minced words as far as I see it, but read it how you will. I did however make a mistake as discussed previously in that Gyp was marking Micc's attitude as suspicious where as I mis-read it as Gyp picking up on Fwog. I identified this mistake in post 111. Noting this mistake, my opinion did shift slightly as it relates to the interaction and I feel I have made this clear in following posts.

To note of 'new angles', my suspicions are still present regarding the same event, but my focus, I think rightfully so is now on 72o. The counter-wagon and following idleness don't sit well with me. I'd like to discuss with them why in their view gyp's post was 'rubbing them the wrong way' but until they return, I cannot.

If there's anything else Tuxedo, let me know.

In addition, JV, when you have some time, if you could talk about your experience with 72 in other games, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Petrichorus]

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

My post was conjecture and I thought that posts 83 and 85 were compelling arguments. The answer to your question is that I changed my conclusion. I'll address the other points in the morning on my PC. Till then I bid you all a fine night/day in Meat Space.

[Petrichorus]

So I've got a few questions to address it appears. Let's start from the top:

Spoiler: 72offsuit - Post 147

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to

threaten a hammer and then glean information

seems to be in the Scum's favour as the

best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie

as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

Why are you assuming the wagon is on town? The wagonee could be scum

As described in this, I did factor the wagonee being scum into account. Ideally we'd be lynching scum every day. All other factors being the same, I said that putting people at L-1 is in Scum's favour as they may hit a role whereas little concrete information will be got putting a scum Day 1 L-1. To elaborate, of course you can tone-read from putting people in jeapordy,

Spoiler: 72offsuit - Post 149

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Explain why you find self-listing as town suspicious.

I've already covered this in my response in post 135, copied here for convenience:

Regarding the 'contradiction' I say immediately in this statement that in itself self listing isn't by itself 'so odd'. As such the sentence prior should instead have read "Fwog listing himself as town and being defended by 72 is suspicious" or "Fwog listing himself as town is mildly suspicious and being defended by 72 is moreso". As discussed later, a counter-wagon is still potentially a form of defense, whether meant that way or not. The contradiction discussed is a matter of minced words as far as I see it, but read it how you will. I did however make a mistake as discussed previously in that Gyp was marking Micc's attitude as suspicious where as I mis-read it as Gyp picking up on Fwog. I identified this mistake in post 111. Noting this mistake, my opinion did shift slightly as it relates to the interaction and I feel I have made this clear in following posts.

Spoiler: 72offsuit - Post 150

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

How likely do you think scum are to chainsaw a 1-vote RVS vote on page 4?

Can someone explain the jargon 'chainsaw' to me? I'm happy to answer as soon as I know.

Spoiler: 72offsuit - Post 154

Two things wrong here.

1. Almost ALWAYS people in their reads will list themselves as town if they include themselves. Why would you put yourself as null or scum? It wouldn't make any sense.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

Personally I feel that listing yourself in any reads if it is just generic alignment is redundant, but if that's the rough convention on here then so be it. I don't find that in itself suspicious, apologies if I was not clear enough before.

I also see now that I mis-read Gyp's statement and he was highlighting Micc and Frog's posts, not solely Frog. As such, this mitigates some of the feelings I had before about 72's post.

Let's talk about this. What makes Fwog listing himself as town so suspicious, especially if you admit everyone will say they're town? If it's suspicious for 72 to defend him, why is it not suspicious for Micc? If it is 72 that is being suspicious why is your vote on Fwogcarf?

See above regarding listing and suspicions. My suspicions were peaked according to how I would usually think during a meat space game vis a vis this scenario.

To contract the events that have interested me:

Fwog - Reads Micc as town,
Gyp - Queries Fwog's Reading - highlighting Micc
72 - Immediately votes Gyp

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

It's page 4. It's a gut read FoS. If its there and the game is slow then I will out my read however weak.
If you were genuinely interested in my meta and if this matches my town play, you could have easily read any one of my town games.

You are asking JV for my meta. Do you think JV is town?

'FoS'? I probably should have done some espionage on my fellow players but I didn't, simply put. Regarding JV, I didn't got a strong read on his slot but I liked his shoot the shit attitude.

Spoiler: 72offsuit - Post 156

@Petri: What are your thoughts on BV at the moment?

With only one post of significant content to go on I do not read bv as scum.

Re-read the quote, and changing my question: BV, nice to see you back I suppose. Played any mafia elsewhere in the meantime?

Nah, I kind of fell off somewhere around 2015. Ended up back here doing a bulk password reset, then one thing led to another and here we are.

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

I do not like the posts from either person involved in this conversation. Flipping your vote on to the person who's voting for you is sketchy in general, especially here where it's just "gut" with a flimsy excuse. Also, Read lists with no content are bad. They provide Mafia with a ton of information on how they're doing, with very little actionable information.

I like the tone of the above and it seems to be well reasoned.

Spoiler: LuckyLuciano - Post 137

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

Does this mean you townread Micc and Tuxedo?

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you find reason to suspect fwog's early posts. Do you believe that 97 is sufficient to outweigh those concerns? From my perspective fwog's explanation of why a D1 lynch is good for town is NAI. He's providing information, not making reads there.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded,

but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices,

so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

Why does this matter?

I do read Tuxedo and Micc as town. They appear to be consistent, reasoned and trying to move this in a constructive direction.

No, fwog has not vindicated himself in my eyes. The information was useful but I agree that it was NAI, just helping out a newbie.

Regarding the last point, are you asking if my appearance to follow louder voices matters? If so, then yes, in that it has been a point of suspicion. As an insight into me, in Meat Space, myself and several compatriots share effectively the reasoning behind statements and behaviour.

Spoiler: Luciano - Post 165

@Petri, I await your response to my other concerns. I would like to add another question with reference to 142. If you changed your conclusion on the value of wagons, help me understand why you don't find building a wagon against 72o desirable in 120.

Btw, post tags are [post=X]X[/post] without the "=X". When you either preview or submit your message the system will add "=linkcode" into the first set of brackets.

Thank you for the coding, I'll test it on a shorter reply. Much appreciated. Regarding the additional question, I did want to see if there would be more content to read before building that wagon. There wasn't and so I did. I still stick by that if I had immediately switched to wagoning 72 I would have been pulled up on flipping. As it is I've been pulled up on inconsistency, which may indeed be worse. That's the reasoning behind it. Was it a poor decision? Probably.

I think that's all of them, let me know if I've missed any. F for JV. Man that was a long one.

[Petrichorus]

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

My post was conjecture and I thought that posts 83 and 85 were compelling arguments. The answer to your question is that I changed my conclusion. I'll address the other points in the morning on my PC. Till then I bid you all a fine night/day in Meat Space.

- so there, Petri states that his opinion changed, but it feels like there wasn't much needed to make him change his mind, as if he wanted to avoid getting unwanted attention for his opinions on the game

in conclusion, i'd like to see what gets out of Petri if there's more pressure on him
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Petrichorus

If I wanted to avoid unwanted attention on my opinions, would I not simply minimise or not post them to the lengths that I have? The more I post, the more there is to analyse. Everyone chipping in on this is good for the town as it helps build reads, thus the lengths I go to to describe my process. Regarding my opinion changing, I am being truthful in that I did find 83 and 85 compelling enough to change my mind.

@Gyp: If $1,000,000 bucks was on the line, up for the taking, and all you had to was to choose a solve right here and now, who would you say are the 2 scum?

I'm aware that this question was directed at Gyp but I want to throw it wider. For me, it's Fwog and 72o.

@72offsuit, with the exception of your 'gut read' on Gyp, you haven't posted any other content that I can see that gives any other read. You've asked plenty of people for their reads, but given no others from yourself. You say your gut read was to move us away from RVS but you've taken no other steps since your return to continue that momentum. As such, I would like to know whether your read on Gyp has changed and if not, who else do you read as Scum.

@Fwog, regarding your earlier conjecture that 72 might be trying to pocket you, how has your opinion on this changed? Personally he doesn't seem to have interacted with you since. It's an interesting situation and not a play that I would have thought that an informed minority would do from 72's side, but your response to call pocket is probably the move I'd make if i was scum being defended by scum. I'd also like to know, after reading through the game, what are your strongest reads?

[Petrichorus]

Regarding the last point, are you asking if my appearance to follow louder voices matters? If so, then yes, in that it has been a point of suspicion.

As an insight into me, in Meat Space, myself and several compatriots share effectively the reasoning behind statements and behaviour.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Happy to. In my MeSp games, myself and a few other vets go into detail behind what we say and how we say it. It's just the meta. In describing why we think what we do it's easier to pull apart fallacies and sniff out scum as it is harder for them to make a valid case without incriminating themselves. As such I'm sure I've shared more on how i operate than the norm here, including times where I have changed my mind. This is not meant to build a case or or against me, just to share how I operate, apologies if it came across as more meaningful.

I did want to see if there would be more content to read before building that wagon. There wasn't and so I did.

I still stick by that if I had immediately switched to wagoning 72 I would have been pulled up on flipping.

As it is I've been pulled up on inconsistency, which may indeed be worse. That's the reasoning behind it. Was it a poor decision? Probably.

This implies you know that 72o is town.

Can I just check I'm using the term 'flipping' appropriately? I used the word flipping to describe changing my vote. I struggle to see which part of this implies that I know 72o is town. If you could elaborate I would be more than happy to go into more detail.

[Petrichorus]

I think flipping is regarded by most players as if somebody dies they either flip town or flip scum

That makes sense, so yes I was using it inappropriately. To rephrase my earlier post using correct terms:
"I still stick by that if I had immediately switched to wagoning 72 I would have been pulled up on a the speed of that change."

Hello Guys, Pleased to join this game. Will read through the thread and post soon.

It's been a while since my last game so super excited to be in this game.

Welcome man!

Hey guys, skimmed through the threads and make some notes.

Town:
Tuxedo seems town to me.[The part where he talks about quarantine being the reason why he tries to skim the thread very often to try to inspect people]
Fwog can be town for now as i grouped some of his interactions with tuxedo,gypsy and 72 as not scumxscum interaction.

Are there any interactions in D1 that you think are scumxscum or do you feel that they've avoided prolonged interaction?

@Tuxedo. Rather than adress it point by point, which I started doing, I thought I'd better lay out the case properly.

The series of events as it transpires is notable to me for the following reasons. Firstly, 72o gave his first vote, with no strong read, in the middle of a discussion between Fwog and Gyp. This discussion was about Micc casting suspicions. Initially I mis-read this conversation and thought that Gyp was insinuating that Fwog was casting those suspicions. I have discussed this mistake before. This correction was the primary reason that I unvoted Fwog.

I still find this event suspicious as it was a very direct derailing of the discussion on Micc's post. I don't like 72s tone and while I cannot prove that 72 was building a wagon to stop that line of questioning, I do think it is potentially incriminating.

By your own reasons for voting Fwog and now 72, does it not look like you're doing the same? Defending the actions of Gyp by voting the people disagreeing with him?

I don't think so. I think I've made my thoughts on 72o clear in 207 and that is why I am still on the wagon for 72o. In addition, I think that my vote on 72 was on a more substantial suspicion initially, compared to a 'gut read'

12 - Petri starts off with vote on JV without any explanation

92 - Just because 72 came to defend me means I'm locktown? Sorry Petri that doesn't make sense, especially when you congratulate me on doing something you think I'm scum for

He joked he was scum, I threw him a joke vote. 3 of the first 4 posts by players included a vote, are you telling me that they were all heavily reasoned thesises? I don't understand why this is relevant.

RE: 92 - Please define 'locktown'. I'd like to know before I answer so as not to be misconstrued.

[Petrichorus]

A couple of things I don't want to get lost and would like answered:
@Enomis,

Are there any interactions in D1 that you think are scumxscum or do you feel that they've avoided prolonged interaction?

@Fwog

92 - Just because 72 came to defend me means I'm locktown? Sorry Petri that doesn't make sense, especially when you congratulate me on doing something you think I'm scum for

RE: 92 - Please define 'locktown'. I'd like to know before I answer so as not to be misconstrued.

@72offsuit, with the exception of your 'gut read' on Gyp, you haven't posted any other content that I can see that gives any other read. You've asked plenty of people for their reads, but given no others from yourself. You say your gut read was to move us away from RVS but you've taken no other steps since your return to continue that momentum. As such, I would like to know whether your read on Gyp has changed and if not, who else do you read as Scum.

Can someone explain the jargon 'chainsaw' to me?

In addition, new questions and answers:

Spoiler: @bv310

72offsuit - The opposite of Fwog for me. Comes in early with reads and details, then drops off that entirely when other people start arguing.

What details or reads does he give at the start of the game before his disappearance with the exception of a single 'gut read' post on Gyp. You're giving him a lot of credit for all the nothing he did and seem to be reading into his drop-off when it seems NAI.
I'm getting some bad juju over this.

@BV, are there any contributions from 72 that you think are particularly notable or that show any leaning to you? I personally see mostly conjecture and bs.

Spoiler: @Lucky

I want to see more of this version of fwog and less of the mid-D1 fwog.

Seconded. That said, Do you find that the change in behaviour itself is AI or not?

@Petri, I also meant to ask in that last post, I'm looking for more content from you that isn't a defense of yourself. Is 72o still your primary focus? What are your thoughts on the other players and the different pushes made so far, both against you and against others?

I think that the questioning from yourself, Tux and fwog seem to be in good faith. To contract the state reasons for the votes of Tuxedo, Micc and Gypx are as follows:
Tuxedo: 103

When it comes to the 72/fwogcarf thing, I'd like to know what people are getting at in the 'defending' argument.

Is it suspicious for 72 to 'defend' a player on his own? Or do you think 72's defense is suspicious because you think fwogcarf is suspicious?

This has been a thoroughly discussed interaction and the interrogation was thorough and in good faith. I think the questions he asked were pertinent and aimed at building useful content.

Micc:

VOTE: Petrichorus
I'm in agreement that this is a good direction. I have fwog, Gypyz, tuxedo, and luckyLuciano on the probably not lynching today list, but that's contingent on me putting a little more work into actually think about things probably tomorrow

Micc did not engage with the wagon at all. After stating that he thought it was a good direction he then jumped off the wagon to chase bv. I don't think scum would have got off the wagon that quick, but it isn't entirely helpful.



Gyp: 202 -

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

Petri states that his opinion changed, but it feels like there wasn't much needed to make him change his mind, as if he wanted to avoid getting unwanted attention for his opinions on the game

but it feels to me that he's just hoping that someone else will get the wagon rolling for him, in order to avoid suspicion

I think the reasoning is a little weak and he is late-ish to the wagon. He didn't interact much with the wagon after voting, but had some good posts on it before he jumped on.

I don't think any scum has jumped on the wagon. Whether it's because they're mostly inactive or because they don't want to jump on too late, I don't know.

72 is still my primary focus, but we'll see if he comes back or gets replaced. If he gets replaced, then maybe this will change. I'm happy while this is happening to move to BV as I concur with much of the discussion. I find his read on 72 specifically of note as a point which I don't think has been brought up yet.

Spoiler: @enomis

I'm still waiting on JV's replacement to react to the Petri push.

I'm also curious as to what a new perspective brings. Enomis, please can you exlain your reads and why you thought BV was more of a priority to push with a wagon?

Weighing in on Gyp:

I think the formatting and questions is NAI. When catching up, it's easy to re-ask questions. It's strange that they're so close together but I don't think it's a major suspicion.
301 seems to be well reasoned and a good answer to Lucky's question as far as I see it. As previously discussed I'd personally focus on who we want as a D1 lynch.

[Petrichorus]

Thanks for the explanation of chainsaw. That makes more sense now.

@Micc, I was responding to Lucky regarding what I thought of the wagon on me. You voted for me and then didn't engage with the discussion on the wagon, then jumped to wagon BV. I happen to agree with wagoning bv, though if you have any thoughts on my wagon while we're at this junction, that would be good.

I'm going to move my vote to BV as it seems more pertinent to do so. In heart, I want my vote to be on 72, but unless he actually engages with the forum, there's no point building pressure unless we're just going to lynch him.
VOTE: bv310

My reasons for voting BV:

1) Yes. I've been following but lurking because I don't believe posting 20-odd one-liners is needed when there's already others taking that role. I feel comfortable right now looking at interactions and trying to spot inconsistencies.

This is disingenuous I feel. I don't think, either through external factors or not, that he has been looking at interactions regularly. If you've not been active through RL getting in the way, own up, as he does later. This section of the post makes it seem like its a choice that he's made to not comment, and that I do not think is true. Even if it is the case, then lurking but not making any comment at all is not helpful for the town. Refusing to interact to avoid analysis is just a defense for scum. BV has made 3 posts of some content, not giving any strong reads and voted Fwog as a 'point of interest' but not following this with any kind of momentum or investigation. By the time they come back, they longer appear to be interested in questioning fwog as the group seems to have come to a consesus for now without him.

BV's top scumreads it appears are me and Micc. I cannot see why he reads Micc this way and thus far has not elaborated.

There's also a contradiction here:

I do not like the posts from either person involved in this conversation. Flipping your vote on to the person who's voting for you is sketchy in general, especially here where it's just "gut" with a flimsy excuse. Also, Read lists with no content are bad. They provide Mafia with a ton of information on how they're doing, with very little actionable information.

With his statement on 72 above. Doesn't add up for me.



@Tuxedo, I thought I answered you comprehensively in post 274. Were you wanting a more clear answer on my position on self-listing? I think I've laid it out elsewhere but I'll reiterate and elaborate here. I have concluded that self-listing on a forum medium is NAI. You cannot tell tone from a list. IRL self-town-reading is what I am used to and often people have tells you can catch. Being as that is not the case here, no it is not in itself suspicious. It never was the main focus on my suspicions regarding that chain of posts and still isn't. After I realised my mistake vis a vis Gyp calling Micc into suspicion not Fwog, fwogs original post ceased to really be pertinent aside from being context to Gyp's post. I don't think it's a chainsaw moment, I dislike 72o's wagoning on what appears to me to be a rather benign post.

In addition, the oxford comma is throwing me, are you asking whether there is a difference beween defending a [suspicious action] and a [non-suspicious action] or a difference between [defending a suspicious action] and a [non-suspicious action]
Either way, the answer is yes I agree there is a difference

[Petrichorus]

Is that L-1?
I think it is, Petri, you should signal if your vote puts someone to L-1 to avoid accidental hammers.

Noted, I will check next time. My apologies.

As for defending suspicious vs non suspicious actions. I suppose it depends on context to how it appears. The difference is most defined by the person who is suspicious. If you're talking about the defense itself. People will defend their position differently based on whether they feel that their action is suspicious to others or not and how justified others are in their suspicion.

I.e. I'm sure that I have defended my positions differently based on whether I think the suspicions that others have are somewhat justified. I haven't strongly defended my position on, for example,: In post 274 I discussed my mistake in using 'flipping' incorrectly. Luciano had justified suspicion on my original use of that word and I think it deserved a thorough explanation. Conversely -

In post 264, fwogcarf wrote:
12 - Petri starts off with vote on JV without any explanation

He joked he was scum, I threw him a joke vote. 3 of the first 4 posts by players included a vote, are you telling me that they were all heavily reasoned thesises? I don't understand why this is relevant.

If this answered your question, great. If it doesn't then I ask that you rephrase the question.

[Petrichorus]

I'm not making any gesture, I'm tired and trying to get people to do some actual thinking about their own thoughts and influences instead of hand-waving away D1 as it being all my fault, which I've seen many times. I don't see any of the 4 currently on my wagon changing that opinion with 2 days left.

Even if that is the case, dead town still win with town. If you are town, then it's in your best interest to at the very least respond to questions levelled your way.

If it's external factors that are affecting your attitude and activity, then my apologies, but I'm going to do and say what I think is best for town.

I do know for sure that with no extra content, it wouldn't make sense to jump off the wagon and stop this lynching. So, bring that content.

So, you insinuate that there are those of us here who are sheeping. Who do you think they are and why?

[Petrichorus]

Tuxedo, I thought I answered you comprehensively in post 274. Were you wanting a more clear answer on my position on self-listing? I think I've laid it out elsewhere but I'll reiterate and elaborate here. I have concluded that self-listing on a forum medium is NAI. You cannot tell tone from a list. IRL self-town-reading is what I am used to and often people have tells you can catch. Being as that is not the case here, no it is not in itself suspicious. It never was the main focus on my suspicions regarding that chain of posts and still isn't. After I realised my mistake vis a vis Gyp calling Micc into suspicion not Fwog, fwogs original post ceased to really be pertinent aside from being context to Gyp's post. I don't think it's a chainsaw moment, I dislike 72o's wagoning on what appears to me to be a rather benign post.

This should answer your question 72. If you want me to elaborate on this, let me know but I think this is reasonably comprehensive.

In post 304, LuckyLuciano wrote:
I feel myself wanting you to be scum right now, so I'm going to take a step back and let other people weigh in before I end up confbias tunneling you.
This part I don't really understand. It feels kind of awkward and out of line with how they've been playing the rest of the day.

Feels like this is pretty genuine. NAI imho but I can understand that mindset and I think it's a good thing that he explained it and also didn't tunnel based on emotion only.

Well, bv is in my lynch triangle for this day, even though i would prefere to lynch between {petri / 72} as BV has barely generated any content

I don't really like Petri's vote on him right now, the reasons he told are okay, but the fact that he said nothing about BV earlier, and the timing at which this vote was done kinda bothers me

Hell in this game, I directly questioned BV about his weird RVS, and never followed up. That was something I could have pursued way earlier in the day but tunneled Petri way too hard.

I feel similarly except I tunnelled on 72 a bit harder than I probably should have, but to be fair, I wasn't really getting any response for most of the day. Regarding bv, @gyp - There wasn't really anything to read on bv imho prior to 276 My first response to bv was the same day as post 276 on post 308. My first read on him was this:

In post 276, bv310 wrote:
72offsuit - The opposite of Fwog for me. Comes in early with reads and details, then drops off that entirely when other people start arguing.
What details or reads does he give at the start of the game before his disappearance with the exception of a single 'gut read' post on Gyp. You're giving him a lot of credit for all the nothing he did and seem to be reading into his drop-off when it seems NAI.
I'm getting some bad juju over this.

@BV, are there any contributions from 72 that you think are particularly notable or that show any leaning to you? I personally see mostly conjecture and bs.

I've also somehow managed to fill up about 1/4 of this game with my shit

nice

It's fine man, play the game in a way that's fun for you. There are lots of worse playstyles than makes jokes. Some real toxic people out there, that being toxic is to them a strategy.

I regret bringing Petri's friendless up in my case against them. I feel like I may have told them to shut and treat everyone like a combatant. Which isn't true, and I'd rather play with someone who greets everyone than not.

So yeah, sorry @Petri.

That's alright Tux. It's factored into other people's reads as well and you haven't asked me to change, just spoke your mind and that's not a bad thing. Being as that's already established, I'm not going to change unless the time is tight and it's important that I post quickly.

@BV, thank you for giving us a post before the end of the day.

However I've seen and been the guy who's given up as town multiple times. I will not trust anybody on the BV wagon if he flips town, which I think he will.

This may become pertinent after the hammer. An attempt to distance and elevate away from suspicion. If bv flips scum, this is potentially something to read as susp, though it's just their read. If bv flips town, this may be an informed scum focusing suspicions on town who are on the wagon.

Could be neutral, it's hard to pin fwog down based on the variety of posts, but I would like to put a pin in it.

Not getting any real overall town vibes on anyone.
I feel like I'm somewhere here:

townlean: micc
null logjam: enom/fwog/gyp/LL/petri/tux
scumlean: bv

Why is Micc a stronger townread than the nulls? Specifically why do you consider Gyp to be null? You raised suspicion on them early and then said they came across as genuine later. Has their later content changed your read on their initial post that brought out a gut-vote at all?

[Petrichorus]

Definitely not who I expected tonight. I expected a general townread to go. Tux at the top of that list. Still, WIFOM when trying to figure out what the mafia are thinking. On the earlier note of Masonry, I hadn't considered that. This isn't a question to catch someone out, but a genuine newb question. Does a mafia special action happen alongside a kill or at a different time. I.e. if there was a rolecop or blocker does their action happen seperately chronologically or alongside? I'm assuming that the latter is the case, otherwise mafia rolecop would be OP.

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

That's a fair point, but is there any reason why you aren't considering the possibility that Lucky killed Fwog? (unless i misunderstood your point)

I assume this is part of Lucky's reason for the vote but I look forward to hearing your reasoning. I can't tell if this is scum trying to press forwards the line of thinking that they tried to set-up with the kill, but if so that's rather sloppy. After that it spirals into WIFOM.

That said, I think it's interesting that Lucky's reasoning for fwog being strongest town-read was so quick after reveal. Could be NAI.

That last part wasn't meant to come across negatively. It's more so that I'm drained from elsewhere and talking to you here is an excuse for a break from that commitment.

It's okay, I'm bad at picking up tone over text. I just felt that was more condescending what it could have been rewarded to be more educational. It is still a newbie game.

I'm down to hear your Petri read. I think I lost the thread on them and was starting to town read their last few posts.

This whole interaction feels very genuine. If it's a scumxscum conversation, they're extremely convincing. I don't think that's the case.

[Petrichorus]

Also, following the thread of scum trying to use a flip to cast susp:

Vote Count 1.8

bv310 (5) ~

Micc, enomis, LuckyLuciano, Petrichorus, Tuxedo Mask,

~LYNCH~

Petrichorus (1) ~

Gypyx,

fwogcarf (1) ~

bv310,

Gypyx (1) ~

72offsuit,

LuckyLuciano (1) ~

fwogcarf,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

So avoiding a WIFOM discussion, fwog was lynched and was voting for Lucky.
Why this target in particular?

Other potential targets:
Lynch Gypyx to flag Petrichorus - Unlikely as suspicion high on me.
Lynch 72 to flag Gypyx - Some suspicion on 72 but possible that this was not chosen for other reasons.

Assuming that scum went with the flip-susp strategy they either chose Fwog as a target because a flip on Lucky and attempting to undermine him seemed the most advantageous or, either me or 72 are scum and this would not make our accusors ideal targets as they would cause suspicion in us.

If Lucky is scum, he's got balls. While I do not doubt that he is experienced and is not adverse to taking risks, I do not think that he would make this play.

I was reading Gyp and 72 as potential scum but I don't think they're scum together.

I know that a 72 wagon isn't really realistic, but i'd rather mention it

1) Already explained, my point was that even though 72 and petri are my 2 biggest suspcets, i don't see them being scum together, and as no one is really defending them, i guessed that the second scum must be between the less active players, and between all of them, BV is the most susp one

It would be a very risky play to cast the idea of 72 up as a suspect when I flip town after a lynch up in the air.

@72, assuming that you will read this at SOME point in the future, why did your D1 vote remain on Gypyx the whole day? You defended this vote a couple of times and painted people questioning the usefulness of this vote as scummy:

I get a scummy vibe here from bv calling my vote a "flimsy excuse"
A weak read is better than no read. You painting my vote on gyp as scummy, by basically calling it OMGUS, is scummy in itself.

It's a very odd and confrontational way of discussing this and I dislike the stubborn-ness with NO logic behind it.

[Petrichorus]

4. I had very few reads yesterday. Everyone felt pretty much null, so l kept my vote on gyp to pressure him, and I asked some follow up questions. Other than gyp, bv pinged me slightly early, and then later on I agreed with a few points others made of him being scum, at which point i stated my intent to hammer-vote for bv.

Petri’s voting pattern, voting for the clear fwog, me (yes, only I know I’m town, but the point still remains), and for bv, also clear-town.

Man you can't have it both ways. If Fwog and bv were 'clear town' then why were you happy to hammer bv. What evidence do you have to support this claim? It appears that you are saying whatever needs to be said to paint me in the worst light and does not feel like a fair and genuine examination. You can't re-write history so easily.

I'll build a fuller case when I get back from work tonight but this is enough for me:

1 - I scumread 72 and question their confrontational manner and their gut read and get voted back with a gut read on the time it took me to post once. As someone who has regularly taken lengthy breaks from the game and been prodded, this seems especially disingenuous.

2 - The contradiction between calling bv a scumread and also clear-town after a flip.

VOTE: 72offsuit

As you describe in your posts but also in post 386 and 387 you susp bv. So frankly, how dare you after the fact scuttle around and lament 'clear town' bv being suspected by other people. Shifty man.

To answer your questions, however lacking in good faith they may be.
1 - Flip strategy as discussed by Tux in post 437 and elaborated on in 439. You need it explaining? I'll happily oblige:
Tux and Lucky both were pointing FoS at fwog at the end of D1. Also at the end of D1, Fwog was voting Lucky. It is possible that scum killed Fwog to cause us to think Lucky was defending himself. It is possible that Lucky made the kill but I don't think that's as likely. You need me to explain any more?

2 - I don't know that they're playing this strategy, obviously. That said, it is wise for scum to cause internal FoS in town early on to force a Lylo early when there is less information. I have no idea of the meta on this site, so I couldn't commend on whether I think it's a popular play here. It's a semi-popular play in my games in Meat Space.

3 -

3. Your insistence on scum-scum associations is scummy in itself. We have a flip of BV who had fk all interactions with anyone, so no idea why you are so obsessed with scum partner analysis - it doesnt feel like you are genuinely hunting scum, but rather as thought you are trying to widen your lynch pool as much as possible.

A) I'm not the only one looking for associations, as being as there are 2 scum, they have to have interacted at some point in the forum. If you can spot that, you get scum. What's so hard to understand about that. Why don't you want us following this line of inquiry?

B) BV was town, why does his interactions have anything to do with scumxscum talk?

C) Widening my lynchpool? You are the only person to not give a single town-read. You cannot possibly be talking about a wider lynchpool that that, hypocrite.

4 - You asked three questions of Gyp:
159 - 190 - 205
Man real hard hitting questions. Great follow-up. I'll go into more detail after work if you need me to break these down for you.

5 - Immediately turning round and painting whoever questions your motives as scummy is not helpful. confronting people about their actions if they are contradictions or are scumstrong, sure. You wanna build a case, you need more than that.


Your entire vote on me is predicated on post 92 and the 12 hour gap it took for me to re-read and comment on your post. As someone with large gaps in their activity, spare me the scorn. So D2, we're looking into potential contradictions and content that brings town closer to victory and you're going with a gut-read again. Pitiful.


As you can tell the tone of this post is a bit different from my others. I'll be cordial to those acting in good faith. I do not think you are, Sir. Prove me wrong.

[Petrichorus]

Lucky seems town after isoing him. Seems like genuinely scumhunting. And I don't think scum will point out the mason soft.
To be frank, I am thinking if it is the reason scum killed fwog.

I think writing that post made me realize the problem I've been having with this game. I feel that the energy levels of different slots either started high and diminished over time, started low and picked up later on, or hasn't been there all game, and it's led to this weird game state where people are trying to solve at different times but it doesn't feel like town has all been present trying to progress the game at the same time. Especially with how I now feel about Petri's slot, it just doesn't feel like scum has been put in a position where they have to be proactive. It also explains why the moment scum does make a move (bv), it stands out to clearly.

This post also feels super genuine and towny.

I agree with your conclusions but a scum might try and give that read if they know it could never have been true. If there's a rolecop for example, they know there isn't a masonry.

[Petrichorus]

To clarify. I am not referencing your conclusion, just the fact that I don't think it's necessarily towny for Lucky to post that specific mason post. Useful content yes, but not necessarily towny. Other than that I agree with you. Right off to work. See you all in 10 hours.

Ciao

[Petrichorus]

Isoing Petri

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

@Petri: What reactions were you expecting when doing that reaction test? (I know that I am backtracking alot here)


And.... This is all I got from your iso. Didn't really have the same gut read that I had went reading through the game the first time.

I found it abit hard to read your wall posts. Don't know if it was the way you phrased or your formatting.

Sorry if the formatting is a bit hard to follow, I'll try and work on that. Regarding this 'reaction test', here's the original explanation and post for context:

Spoiler: Original post

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Spoiler: Gyp post referenced above

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

Well of course yeah i don't expect someone to have super develloped reads by page 3, but the fact that he just put himself on the same level of towniness as micc / petri bothered me, and therefore i asked him more details

Spoiler: original explanation

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.

To clarify further if required. The 'reaction test' was for whether the meta here and specifically the other players found self-listing suspicious, as Gyp did in the quoted post. Regarding the read, as discussed previously my original intention was to read Fwog's reaction to 72s post as I originally thought the post from Gyp read "I don't really like Fwog's attitude in his post". This was incorrect and corrected shortly afterwards.

Being as this has been queried a few times, let's follow through on my logic based on the incorrect statement that I read it as.

Spoiler: alternative and INCORRECT series of events

Gypyx: Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?
Fwog: town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else
Gypyx: So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like

Fwog's

attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him
72:
This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

Initially this read to me as 72 bodyguarding fwog against Gyp. Obviously this is not the case as Gyp was actually querying Micc. As such I put a vote in here to gauge Fwog's reaction to this bodyguarding. This was to see whether Fwog and 72 were potentially scumbuddies . As this was based on an incorrect premise, it clearly did not get a useful reaction from Fwog. The only positive is that I was informed regarding the self-listing meta here.

I think that's as clear as I can make it. I'm aware it's convoluted, my apologies.

[Petrichorus]

@Gypsy:

It's a feeling based on how the wagon went. Don't think both scum would have stayed off the wagon. By that I don't really mean physically on the wagon like Tuxedo, but the people who actually intended to be on the wagon.

So:
Micc, enomis, LuckyLuciano, Petrichorus,72

But after looking at it again, that's most of the players still alive so...

I somewhat concur with Gyp in that I don't think that scum needed to be on that wagon, but lets follow your premise. Do you think both scum would have been on the wagon or only one. If it's only one, then that means the pools of potentials look like this:
Scum 1: Micc, enomis, LuckyLuciano, Petrichorus, Tuxedo Mask
Scum 2: Gypyx, 72offsuit

I left 72 off-wagon as while he did indicate he would, he did not. This could be due to activity and may be NAI but it leaves him off the wagon imho.

If we go with the premise that both scum were NOT on the wagon then whether there was one on or no scum on the wagon, we have a pool of 2 left as susp: Gypyx and 72offsuit.

Because I do not think Gyp and 72 are scumbuddies, I assume there was one scum on and one scum off.

[Petrichorus]

The scum on wagon thing was just a feeling btw. I don't have much more insights into that other than at least one of the scum in on it.

I also agree that scum didn't need to be on that wagon. But don't you think this point and what I was saying in post 483 before has no link?

Your main question was for Gypyx and that seemed to be answered. You mentioned that "that's most of the players still alive" which made me think that if we can seperate the town into groups using intuition and reads then it makes it easier to hone in on scum.

There's the link.

I don't think both scum were off the wagon which means at least one of them is on. Perhaps I'm tunnelling on 72 but until he explains the bizzare change in his take on bv, I do not see a reason to let up.

[Petrichorus]

3. Your insistence on scum-scum associations is scummy in itself. We have a flip of BV who had fk all interactions with anyone, so no idea why you are so obsessed with scum partner analysis - it doesnt feel like you are genuinely hunting scum, but rather as thought you are trying to widen your lynch pool as much as possible.

I read Petri as considering how different possible night kills cast suspicion on different players. I'm not seeing the scum-scum associative analysis that you are. I think it's rather odd, however, for Petri to be considering all these hypotheticals immediately after wanting to "avoid a WIFOM discussion". It feels like content for the sake of content.

I don't think discussing all the possibilities for scum decisions to be content for content's sake, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Do you have any views regarding these hypotheticals or are you comfortable dismissing them off-hand.
I like to put out there my thinking and I like my logic challenged. In addition, I posited one hypothetical situation as I see it. The flip-susp discussion was not birthed by me, although I was quite lengthy in my take on it I suppose.

[Petrichorus]

I think that the pushing of the agenda is a lot more scummy than the possible slip. The message itself seems kinda rushed: 'vagon' for example. My guess is that it was typed quickly, possibly from their phone. I don't think it's a strong scumlean but worth keeping in mind, especially given the other posts that do fit a scum-play.

Alright fair enough about the skimming I suppose. One question then, how many scum do you feel were on that wagon, given current reads?

[Petrichorus]

I understand your point, and I agree, Enomis should improve. Do you think that it's AI?

That said, I'd like to know whether you think it's most important to vote and wagon Enomis based on performance rather than on scumleans. Make a case for it.

We don't have a lot of time and we need to get more information from those we already expect. Myself included if that's where suspicions lie.

[Petrichorus]

Activity Report:

Micc- Last Post: 45 hours
Enomis- Last Post: 20 hours
72offsuit- Last Post: 23 hours (activity notice) 48 hours (last post)
Gypyx- Last Post: 21 hours
Lucky, Petrichorus and Tuxedo - Posted within 12 hours

@Karnage, please prod Micc

Not looking good for us if this continues to be the pace.
Time passed in D2: 68 hours
Time until D2 ends: 100 hours

Posts in D2:
72offsuit - 6, excluding activity notice
enomis - 11
Gypyx - 7
Lucky - 22
Micc - 2
Petrichorus - 11
Tuxedo Mask - 16

Although not necessarily AI, we can't win with this activity.
VOTE: Micc

[Petrichorus]

I understand that feeling. Get up to speed and weigh in on what you can please.

[Petrichorus]

At work and will reply when I'm done. Leaving this here for now: VOTE: 72offsuit

[Petrichorus]

At work and will reply when I'm done. Leaving this here for now: VOTE: 72offsuit

I make 31 posts, and Patri's response is to vote for me, without commenting on any of them.
Ye, I'd say Petri is derp-town. I don;t think scum does this. This is ACTUALLY reckless town.

Scum LL, town Petri.

Mate, my vote was on you while you were gone. I voted micc and then as i got to work you spammed the shit out of everything. I dont have time to reply to it all, but i read it at the time and voted. As i said, will reply when home

[Petrichorus]

Right, let's catch up with Mr Spammertime over here. I'm late to the party and lots of my responses mirror LL's as it is just the logic how I see it. I made notes on my points first, then ISO'd Lucky as it seems that's where the pressure is at and discovered he already made some of the points so I'll keep it brief.

Spoiler: Posts 516 - 525

Why would you do this? It's not helpful, funny or smart. It's irritating at best. Unlike you I'll be nesting these in nicely as not to make anything hard to follow.

Spoiler: Post 527

4. I like Micc's question directed at me Re: thoughts on Petri. It feels like the sort of question that is consistent with
!townMicc's goals and his reads so far: From what I understand he doesn;t see Petri as particuarly scummy,
and so is trying to sort out my alignment, by questioning my scumread on a player he doesn not see as being particularly scummy.

I assume you're talking about 474. I fail to see how this is significantly different from any other concise question levelled here on the forum. This is a perfect example of why I think either 72 is confbiasing like crazy, or scum deliberately cherrypicking to push his agenda.

Spoiler: Post 532 - It's a biggie

2. Also in 119, it feels like LL is directing Petri to scumread me.

"What do you believe is 72o's motive for shifting focus from fwog? Do you think that 72o is scum defending scum, or scum defending town?"

Why doesn't LL offer the options of town defending a player they also read as town, as an option?

Being as I was already of the mindset that you are scumleaning, why would he phrase it that way and give those options? It makes no sense and I would argue would be more suspicious to do it your way and project.

5. Weak point, but still holds nonetheless: Whoever said dead men tell no tales is wrong. Fwog's scumread of LL is genuine because we know fwog is town.

Fwog was working on the same info as everyone else. It doesn't make their reads any better or worse. You could argue that if he was reading scum, they might be more likely to NK. Alternatively, if it's a scumread on a townie, they might NK him to point suspicion at that read. I'd say there we are spiraling into WIFOM but I think that you're actively trying to point this out without entertaining the idea that scum might be doing this. As such, I read you as scum. Particularly because fwog's next lynch would have been Lucky. If you flip town, then Lucky would be next logically.

Spoiler: Post 535 and 565 - Hypocrisy central

What I'm saying is, given the lynch flip was town, rather than scum, there is no progression towards scum-scum analysis. I feel like scum-scum interaction is something primarily beneficial once you have lynched a scum, then you ca reread that player's interactions with everyone else.

Scum theatre is hard, and can easily backfire if town reads an interaction as feeling like scum vs scum.
Nothing particuarly pings me as scum vs scum between the two.
I scum read LL and townlean gyp, nothing else in their interactions other than what I;ve posted suggests to me otherwise at this stage.

So scumxscum analysis hmm. You've described me as "obsessive" with it before which I find unreasonable but here we are wedging it into argument and DESCRIBING why reading scumxscum might be useful.

Spoiler: Post 538

post 301 - a key part of your townread of LL seems to be your feelings in 301:

"for instance, taking off your vote on petri, assuming that you're scum and Petri isn't your scumbuddy
(which would be quite weird, considering what you did in post 179) you had the opportunity to just keep your vote on him,
and surely, this would've been pretty likely to cause an unintentional hammer, while not making you that suspcious,
but you chose to take it off, which i find to be quite illogical to do as maf
(like, even a scum wanting to make himself look better could've just pointed out "hey watch out, petri is actually at L-1)

I disagree with your read of LL here. The momentum of day one feels like it was heading towards a bv lynch quite easily.

In the end, we had 6 players happy to vote for bv (I stated intent to hammer but TM hammered instead)
I feel like LL wouldn;t need to pursue Petri, with bv's head on the chopping block.

Not at the point at which LL was backing off to allegedly prevent an accidental hammer. BV had not posted that which made us suspicious. I have considered this as Lucky trying to pocket me, but it would have been much easier to just allow a mislynch.

Spoiler: Post 557

To be honest, I had a strong town read on fwog that I didn;t out yesterday, as i didnlt want him night killed.

This is completely inactionable and feels like scum trying to go LAMIST. In addition, why would a strong town read from one player affect the NK? Unless you were reading a PR. If you're discussing a read on Fwog potentially being a Mason, you're late to the party, get your new ideas.

Spoiler: Post 558

Once again, not overly keen on night kill spec, but ye, I think overall, in general scum kills PR reads, or threats to scum.
So yes, fwog dying due to strong reads is definitely possible.

As far as I'm aware there weren't many strong fwog reads day 1, I'll happily retake that if evidence is provided. Keep note of not wanting to discuss NK Spec

Spoiler: Post 604

And here's where that NK Spec comes in:

2. I know that fwog being town doesn;t make his scumread on you correct. But its another piece of evidence against you, given his read is genuine and not coming from a scum agenda, as opposed to the read of any player still alive.

This is flimsy logic and his tendency to not actually ask or answer the big question here is quite telling I feel.
The question is: "Given fwog's reads, why might scum NK fwog? Is it to defend fwog or is it to cast suspicion on people in fwog's list?" This also begs the question: "Is there anything D2 which might explain scum's decision?
72 brought this up and keeps pressing this. This makes it feel to make that it's much more likely that 72 is scum trying to frame Lucky than it is a townie pressing a scum as to me, a townie might have more reservations about scum's intentions behind the lynching.

Given all this and especially that last point, I am voting 72 and will pursue that wagon. If I am wrong, then we lynch Lucky, or if you think that this read of mine smacks as too much of a defense of Lucky and an attack on town!72offsuit, then lynch me too.

@72, why do you not like speculating on NK decisions? I think the questions of who the scum target and why are the most pertinent questions in mafia. Is it a legitimate defense or is it misdirection is to me one of the founding points of logic. It's a better tell than behaviour and it narrows down the options to a few opposing candidates.

In addition, I would like to know why you voted for me earlier today and then jumped wagon. Were you disappointed that nobody followed your thin reasoning? I doubt that it was because another target became bigger because most of your reads are on events that happened before you switched your votes. If you are a town then you are an immense hypocrite, peddling your apples and elephants.

[Petrichorus]

Micc, is there anything else specifically that you would like me to discuss about 72? I note that you would like me to discuss him more. Happy to oblige.

[Petrichorus]

Also of note, despite Petri not being a fan of throwing his vote around early, once his wagon built up he suddenly felt motivated to vote 72o.

As i've noted before, I switched my vote from fwog to 72 when I realised my mistake. Could you elaborate on why it is of note?

[Petrichorus]

The tone follows my previous post regarding 72. I'm aware and mentioned that several of these points mirror Lucky's take. Just a product of time I'm afraid. Whether they are in agreement with Lucky or not. I wanted to give my take on 72's posts.

That said, i don't think Lucky brought up questioning the motive for pushing fwog's reads as a reason to lynch Lucky from 72.

=Was what I was writing. Just reread Lucky's latest long read and it mentions this. Damnit Lucky xD=

[Petrichorus]

@Tux. What then do you think is the most pertinent course of action from here?
As I see it we have:

Petri against 72
Lucky against Gyp
72 against Lucky

As the strongest/loudest opinions here.

This essentially breaks down to two issues, please correct me if I am contracting this incorrectly:

1) Fwog's reads on D1
Micc and 72 think fwog's scumread of Lucky is something worth pressing and wagoning. I can somewhat understand their logic here
I think that a smart scum would use this read of fwog to point FoS onto a townie and for being the most insistent on this along with other inconsistencies I think that 72 is worth pressing and wagoning.

2)Voting records
Lucky has proposed that of the group, Gypyx's voting record is most sketchy in regards for pushing for town kills.
72 has proposed that Lucky's back-off of my wagon is LAMIST behaviour from Lucky, followed by his move to the bv wagon. This is supported by Micc.

I would think that if 72 flips town, Lucky is scum and vice versa. I personally feel it is more likely to be 72 given what i've discussed. That said, I also understand Micc's read on this in 586. I personally feel that this is not necessarily a scum-action however. I think that the timing is too tight between me being at L-1 and Lucky backing off with the VC being incorrect and the timing between this and Lucky getting on the bv wagon too broad to be definitively sketchy. I do however get your point Micc.

In miscellaneous news, Gyp is at 35 hours inactive.

@Karnage can you give him a poke in the morning?

[Petrichorus]

I understand your approach to enomis. It was my D1 experience minus my wagon. It's solely frustration with 72. Disappears for extended periods of time with lingering questions then returns, dodges the main questions and then spams out posts to divert the town's attention. Also, he's rude and abrasive, I turned the other cheek D1 and do not see the point in responding to insults with language as pleasant as it has been otherwise throughout. As such, the tone change.

He is welcome to speak as he wishes, I am also welcome to respond as I choose. It might lend an insight into my manner more if I mention that I follow some specific tenets to the best of my ability, but I won't over-share if it isn't welcome.

[Petrichorus]

And to answer your last question, I've tried to take it into consideration. I feel that the logic behind my decisions is sound, removed from my personal opinions.
As such, I'm happy to entertain suspicion on Lucky and I want to see what comes from that wagon.

The crux of Lucky/72 needs to be resolved as I see it, and pushing in both directions is beneficial as long as we reach a consensus, even if it's a compromise. I intend to continue pushing 72 unless it becomes more important for us to pursue Lucky.

[Petrichorus]

@Tuxedo, is this your ISO and read of 72?

Anyways, did the ISO of 72. His posts and thoughts are consistent and easy to follow and are always open and forthcoming with thoughts and answers. Nothing jumped out to me as dishonest, disingenuous, or scum motivated. So for me, they're town.

I disagree with your take on 72, but I think that'll have to wait now.

^ EBWOP: With posts linked:

@gyp:

Re: post 301 - a key part of your townread of LL seems to be your feelings in 301:

"for instance, taking off your vote on petri, assuming that you're scum and Petri isn't your scumbuddy
(which would be quite weird, considering what you did in post 179) you had the opportunity to just keep your vote on him,
and surely, this would've been pretty likely to cause an unintentional hammer, while not making you that suspcious,
but you chose to take it off, which i find to be quite illogical to do as maf
(like, even a scum wanting to make himself look better could've just pointed out "hey watch out, petri is actually at L-1)


I disagree with your read of LL here. The momentum of day one feels like it was heading towards a bv lynch quite easily.
In the end, we had 6 players happy to vote for bv (I stated intent to hammer but TM hammered instead)
I feel like LL wouldn;t need to pursue Petri, with bv's head on the chopping block.

So, what I;m saying, if you set this thought-process aside Re: your townreading for the above rationale,
do you townread LL for any other reasons?


You say in your post 163, you don't see LL's
"carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

Pretty much what I feel is you also see LL as being disingenious, thus scummy here.


Basically, what I;m getting at, are you willing to jump on the LL wagon and see where it goes?

I've been townreading him for other reasons, but what i've said about him taking off his vote was the main part that led me to belive he's town

While i don't really see what you talked about as disengenuous, I agree that there was other weird things coming from him recently, like the fact that he accuses me upon considering that he could be scum

So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be
VOTE: Lucky

Attention, this is L-1 on LL

The read from this is that you aren't conviced Lucky is scum and your reason for voting is to uncover scum tomorrow? Tomorrow could be our last day if we mess this up. This pings me as scum who want to go for the lynch but don't want to seem like a big pusher.

For my money, I don't think Lucky is scum. Every reason that may incriminate Lucky I feel is more incriminating on others or is NAI. I don't think scum would move away from a hammer when there was no momentum elsewhere, it just doesn't track. His recent demeanor feels like frustrated town rather than cornered scum.

While I would rather be pushing 72, that's kinda out of my hands here so I'm going to come down here:

VOTE: Gypyx

This is for the tone and reasoning of his vote and for his voting record D1

@Tux, state intent to hammer and I suppose we'll go on to claims.

======================
New post from Gypyx: Someone please explain W/W - V/W I assume it is shorthand for W/wolf and Villager respectively.

Pausing my vote on Gypyx.

Out of the two: LL and 72, which do you think is more likely to be scum? Why?
How do you read their interaction?
How does Micc fit into this? Pocket? Sxs?

[Petrichorus]

To be clear UNVOTE: Gypyx
Strikethrough didn't do it justice

[Petrichorus]

Ah fuck it. Thought I'd catch him while active, seems not. VOTE: Gypyx as originally intended for the reasons previously stated. Thought his posts afterwards were a town questioning their decision, perhaps not.

[Petrichorus]

Also, I was a little worried about a scumswap and quickhammer. More likely D3, just got me on edge.

That's Gypyx and Lucky at L-1. Tux, I trust you. Make the decision that you think is right. Unless someone jumps wagon, it's probably on you.

[Petrichorus]

Damnit Tux xD

[Petrichorus]

I think its pretty telling that all 3 of my scumreads are voting tpgether on gyp right now.

Ditto on Lucky

[Petrichorus]

Hey 72, if you're so adept at not dodging questions, fancy pointing me to your response to 608 - Specifically the questions directed at you here:

@72, why do you not like speculating on NK decisions? I think the questions of who the scum target and why are the most pertinent questions in mafia. Is it a legitimate defense or is it misdirection is to me one of the founding points of logic. It's a better tell than behaviour and it narrows down the options to a few opposing candidates.

In addition, I would like to know why you voted for me earlier today and then jumped wagon. Were you disappointed that nobody followed your thin reasoning? I doubt that it was because another target became bigger because most of your reads are on events that happened before you switched your votes. If you are a town then you are an immense hypocrite, peddling your apples and elephants.

Cheers mate.

[Petrichorus]

So we're waiting for Gypyx, 72offsuit and Lucky. Good thing we've still got a couple of days...

[Petrichorus]

I'm just waiting on Micc and Lucky.

What do you think of 72's reaction to Gyp's vote?

His entire response is below and I don't like it.

Of course i like his vote on LL.
LL is scummy as.
I ASKED him to join the wagon and he did.

A) Whether you think someone is scummy or not, you should still be wary of who jumps on your wagon.
B) He doesn't comment at all on Gyp's reasons, even though they differ from 72's
C) He did not ask anyone to join the wagon, unless he's using scum-chat.

ISO'd Gyps and 72's posts in tandem and there isn't really a strong interaction between them at all at least D2. As already pointed out, Gyp doesn't talk about 72 really at all D2 then throws him into a solve.
72 meanwhile has this as his read on Gyp:

Spoiler: Post 571

Gyp:
post 78 pinged me slightly for reasons mentioned already -0.25

Looking back, I agree with TM's view that gyp’s reactions to questions have felt pretty genuine.

1. 74 - Response to Fwog’s “hey gypyx how you doing” feels natural and unforced
2. Handles my weird question in 205, with a reasonable, natural feeling response in post 283.

Post 292 and 294 analysis of myself and Petri seems reasonable for !townGyp to make.

297 half-baked reads list actually feels townie to me, the fact it only mentions a few players.
The reads he has, though I disagree with his LL read once again, seems reasonable for !townGyp to make.


Verdict: Townlean +2

EBWOP. Gyp is +0.5.
I copy pasted previous verdict and forgot to change thd value.

This doesn't address any content past post 300.

[Petrichorus]

TM loses towncred +++ for pretty much stating he would prefer to lynch gyp over LL

Then why would TM not state intent to hammer on town-gyp? He could just say that he found the argument for gyp more compelling and look pretty neutral.

[Petrichorus]

UNVOTE: gypxy.

I think I believe 72 unless there is a counter claim from someone other than lucky. Also for something outside the game which I can't explain.

UNVOTE: Gypyx there's mine. No counter claim and a soft breadcrumb, I believe you 72. I understand why youd confbias tunnel so hard now.

Do you mean outside of MafiaScum itself, outside game 2001 or outside what is currently known?

[Petrichorus]

Oh I know, sorry if I was misconstrued. I mean that there is not a counterclaim against 72, coupled with a breadcrumb, thus I believe 72. Sorry if that was unclear.

[Petrichorus]

UNVOTE: gypxy.

I think I believe 72 unless there is a counter claim from someone other than lucky. Also for something outside the game which I can't explain.

UNVOTE: Gypyx there's mine. No counter claim and a soft breadcrumb, I believe you 72. I understand why youd confbias tunnel so hard now.

Do you mean outside of MafiaScum itself, outside game 2001 or outside what is currently known?

@ TM - here

Just for clarity, there is a counter claim so I'm less sure. Going to look back through and decide who we lynch and who we save for another day.

[Petrichorus]

I lead out with a vote on Petri to try and disguise my guilty verdict on LL

So essentially, we have to decide:
Is 72 trustworthy?
Is Gyp scummy?
Is there merit to LL's claim.

I would argue that the statement above isn't useful to town. Obviously he'd rather not claim cop D2 if he could help it, but wasting half the day doesn't seem to be in town's best interest.
The breadcrumbs are only meaningful IF there is not a mafia rolecop. If there is, then breadcrumbing cop is a good early game move for scum.

Of course i like his vote on LL.
LL is scummy as.
I ASKED him to join the wagon and he did.

Really? You don't think a stance like that is very easy for scum to take advantage of? He votes LL while calling them town, disagreeing with your argument, and not putting forward one of their own. That's acceptable for getting LL? It doesn't make you slow down and reassess, the two people supporting your push at the moment are either apathetic to your arguments or town reading the lynch victim?

This is the crux of it. 72 and Gyp seem to have a strong connection here on this wagon, prior to the claim. And that 'I asked him to' feels like a scum-slip because this asking did not occur in public chat.

LL's claim is equally as viable as 72's, moreso unless there is a doctor, in which case they are equal. The other town PR in here might know more, but if it is not a strong call, they should not reveal themselves, Especially if they are the doctor. Please don't claim.

Here's my case and my vote:
72 points FoS day 1 at Gyp citing a gut read - Excellent D1 play by scum to distance scumteam.
They otherwise however do not interact for the most part aside from some basic read questions. Even with FoS on Gyp, 72 does not pull up anything or probe particularly deep, ready to set up a townlean D2.

The timing of 72's claim, both late in the day and when Gyp is at L-1 and looking to get lynched by TM as that seemed to be the way he was leaning. If I was town-cop, yes I would want to avoid a mislynch, but D3 would be a strong one for town if cop already had guilty on LL, town was already sus and he could gather more information the following night. I'm not sure I'd reveal so late in the day, especially being as that would set me up for a NK. I might try and seed my suspicion on LL and town would follow dead cop vote most likely even if scum got lucky.

Lucky not coming forward earlier isn't suspicious. There was no real call for it.

I vote to lynch Gyp. If he flips scum, we lynch 72 D3. If he flips town, lynch LL D3. Either way, we still have a town PR alive going into the night, and although they may be blocked or NK'd, we might have a FN, JK or Doctor around to give us more.

This would put us at a LyLo if I am wrong, but with a good case against at least one confirmed scum.
If I am right, we get a win in D3 or at worst D4.

So, VOTE: Gypyx

fixed the quote formatting ~Karnage

[Petrichorus]

Damnm first broken formatting. I think it's clear enough though

[Petrichorus]

We have 7 hours btw. I'm not against following town over my personal thoughts if the time gets tight, but I think that this is genuinely the best course of action. Thoughts?

@72. Is there any reason other than your claim on LL that gyp would be 'incredibly unlikely' to be scum? Chips on the table, Who do you think is the second scum?

[Petrichorus]

I think he mis-spoke and meant we have claims

on

the two people we're killing today.

[Petrichorus]

Okay, we are not lynching outside of 72 and LL, that's insane.

It's not insane now that we are in the world where there is either a doctor or no second town PR. If 72offsuit is a cop, he's always neutralized by a roleblocker from here, but if LL is a tracker he can get another result tonight by being protected by the doctor.

The downside tho is that wrong today means we can't afford to get the coin flip wrong tomorrow. The risk there just isn't worth the payoff.

I ready to vote LL but I'll wait until closer to the deadline in case anyone has more to say.

I think it's worth considering. If we think that the chances of either case are close to 50% and of Gypyx of being scum, then it is better for town to mislynch a VT than a PR. If Gyp wasn't so closely tied to both parties in some regard then I would agree.

If we vote Gyp:
If 72 is right, then we have mislynched VT and have one confirmed scum. =Lylo D3, lynch LL, one scum remaining.
If LL is right then we have lynched scum and have another confirmed scum. =Win D3

If we vote LL:
If LL is right then we have lynched tracker and have two confirmed scum.
If 72 is right then we have lynched scum and have no confirmed scum.

If we vote 72:
If LL is right then we have lynched scum and have another confirmed scum.
If 72 is right then we have lynched cop and have one confirmed scum.

In the cases where we have mislynched and there is one confirmed scum, the other is most likely from the remaining pool of Micc, Enomis, Petri and Tuxedo, FoS on me (for suggesting this), Micc and possibly enomis.

[Petrichorus]

Okay, we are not lynching outside of 72 and LL, that's insane.

It's not insane now that we are in the world where there is either a doctor or no second town PR. If 72offsuit is a cop, he's always neutralized by a roleblocker from here, but if LL is a tracker he can get another result tonight by being protected by the doctor.

The downside tho is that wrong today means we can't afford to get the coin flip wrong tomorrow. The risk there just isn't worth the payoff.

I ready to vote LL but I'll wait until closer to the deadline in case anyone has more to say.

I think it's worth considering. If we think that the chances of either case are close to 50% and of Gypyx of being scum, then it is better for town to mislynch a VT than a PR. If Gyp wasn't so closely tied to both parties in some regard then I would agree.

If we vote Gyp:
If 72 is right, then we have mislynched VT and have one confirmed scum. =Lylo D3, lynch LL, one scum remaining.
If LL is right then we have lynched scum and have another confirmed scum. =Win D3

If we vote LL:
If LL is right then we have lynched tracker and have two confirmed scum.
If 72 is right then we have lynched scum and have no confirmed scum.

If we vote 72:
If LL is right then we have lynched scum and have another confirmed scum.
If 72 is right then we have lynched cop and have one confirmed scum.

In the cases where we have mislynched and there is one confirmed scum, the other is most likely from the remaining pool of Micc, Enomis, Petri and Tuxedo, FoS on me (for suggesting this), Micc and possibly enomis.

[Petrichorus]

Whoops, posted early.

If we vote LL:
If LL is right then we have lynched tracker and have two confirmed scum. = Win D4
If 72 is right then we have lynched scum and have no confirmed scum. = Lylo D4 or unlikely Win D3

If we vote 72:
If LL is right then we have lynched scum and have another confirmed scum. = Win D3
If 72 is right then we have lynched cop and have one confirmed scum. = Lylo D4

Also of note:

Okay, we are not lynching outside of 72 and LL, that's insane.

It's not insane now that we are in the world where there is either a doctor or no second town PR. If 72offsuit is a cop, he's always neutralized by a roleblocker from here, but if LL is a tracker he can get another result tonight by being protected by the doctor.

The downside tho is that wrong today means we can't afford to get the coin flip wrong tomorrow. The risk there just isn't worth the payoff.

I ready to vote LL but I'll wait until closer to the deadline in case anyone has more to say.

If there is no doctor and 72 is a cop, he won't be roleblocked but will be NK'd.

[Petrichorus]

In the cases where we make it to D4 Lylo, if we DO have a doctor and confirmed Town PR survives at least to D3, potentially D4, we've got a better chance.

[Petrichorus]

I will say though that if town does not approve of this as a concept, at least enough to make a majority, I will be voting 72.

[Petrichorus]

Please do talk about that Enomis. LL was pushing Gyp pretty hard at the end. Might be misdirection, but Gyp doesn't seem as scummy in this new daybreak.

[Petrichorus]

Just as a note before I head to work. Mafia probably killed TM last night because there is a doctor but they don't know who they are and couldn't roleblock them. If this reasoning is correct, then we are in a roleblocker-cop-doctor scenario.


Also, is that Micc L-1? Going to have to look at those trying to quickhammer

[Petrichorus]

Well Lucky appeared to be pocketing me going forwards through D2, but I did make that easier for him. My bad. Gypyx may be pocketing 72 and the reasons he gave for voting Lucky were a bit weird, but I don't think scum would get the wagon rolling that hard, especially being as it would have been easy to orchestrate a mislynch yesterday.

Our current set-up is 1 Doctor, 1 Cop, 1 roleblocker and 2 VT. I'm wary of calling for claims because I'm not sure whether it's in town's favour or not. I'll run the maths when I'm back from work tonight, but this might be solveable.

[Petrichorus]

So, firstly I've thought about the chances of quickhammering and putting people at L-1. Anyone who does not declare intent to hammer and just hammers, you're being killed in Lylo D4, just be aware. So town, be careful. Second, call your L-1's. I'm aware I've been guilty in the past but it's pretty damn important now, so best behaviour. I'm somewhat surprised that I've not got more flak for getting the call wrong yesterday but I'll take not having to defend my ass while we try and find the actual killer. I stated my reasons then quite extensively, go back if you have questions, though I feel they aren't particularly pertinent now.
Removing myself and 72 from the lineup we have the following:

Voting record:

Spoiler: Enomis:

254 - BV - Agreed with Micc's logic specifically. Second on the wagon.
460 - Micc - Based on Micc's reason's and changing of mind on jumping on a Petri wagon
487 - Gypyx - based on 'scum slip' from Gypyx
490 - Unvote Gypyx - Previous vote based on 'a feeling', re-read and changed mind.
623 - Gypyx - Based on Gypyx' reasons for voting for Lucky
730 - Unvote Gypyx - After 72's claim.
811 - Hammers Lucky
820 - Gypyx - Reason given that Gypyx's vote on Lucky was based on some weird stuff.
827 - Micc - POE?

Spoiler: Micc:

9 - JV, replaced by enomis. Lolvote
66 - Tuxedo - Based on Tuxedo's vote on fwog based on inconsistency
143 - Petrichorus - Second on the wagon after TM
213 - bv - First to vote against bv
556 - Lucky - Second on wagon on Lucky, following 72.
679 - Unvotes Lucky - Cites company on wagon.
718 - Unvotes again.

Spoiler: Gypyx:

46 - 72offsuit - Lolvote
202 - Petrichorus - Cites putting on more pressure. Third on the wagon after Tux and Micc
618 - Lucky - Puts Lucky at L-1 - Cites 'other weird things' while saying he doesn't understand why 72 scumreads Lucky. I somewhat get this as 72's reasoning was a bit shoddy, but it's because he was trying to guide a wagon without claiming.
824 - Micc - Cites Micc 'scumslip'

This is mostly for reference.

Regarding POE and claiming. We do not massclaim. What will happen if we do?
Scum claims VT, kills doctor and blocks cop N3, leaving a lylo with scum, cop and VT. Their claim of VT doesn't narrow it down enough to ensure a win for town.
Scum won't claim doctor because then it's a sure win D4, even if town mislynch.

So, reads and interactions with Lucky that I think are of note:

Spoiler: Enomis:

Dismisses cases against Lucky in posts 622, 623 and 626 until cop claim.
In initial sweep upon joining does not mention Micc or Lucky. Probably NAI, might be not wanting to give strong read on scumbuddy until there's town consensus.
Only actually engages with Lucky once, 361 on a reply to the one pointed question at enomis from Lucky.

Why Lynch 72? I am believing him more and more. I can understand abit of the mechanical optimal play argument but it seems a bit stupid to me.

We're taking him finding random posts where he has a C, and O, and a P as a soft? I'm tracker. I softed it the moment I replaced into the game.

I vaguely had other topics in mind and planned to touch a bit more on each player, but this seems to be more interesting

so let's investigate here.

VOTE: Petri

Mafia probably role copped me and that's why 72o is suicide pushing. Gypyx is going to be lynched, and 72o looks like he's next on the chopping block so he claims cop to buy time. UNVOTE: Gypyx. VOTE: 72o. He's always fake claiming here, as there's no setup with both cop and tracker. N1 result available if necessary, but it'll help mafia narrow down the TPR pool so I'd rather not out.

There are two things that make me don't believe this claim.
1) Investigate is cop breadcrumb, not tracker.
2) I don't see why mafia would suicide as tracker is not that useful when there's two mafia. Unless Gypyx is his partner. Even then, it's a bit of a stretch.

This is his post on Lucky, and it paints enomis quite well... It's late in the day though and momentum is swinging towards LL. Could be just to cover.

Spoiler: Micc:

Challenges Lucky in posts like 220

nah, stick with bv310. we have a good thing going there. Three votes right now, looking for another to make it L-1.

The wording is a bit strange, but I suppose momentum for any wagon D-1 could be a good thing. Just flagged as hindsight makes it look weirdly at home home in a scumchat not town. Probably NAI.

Doesn't actually claim Lucky again after reveal of cop but is active in pushing the wagon that way and while cautious, does support 72 over Lucky, even prior to the cop claim.

I am here now. The biggest question mark for me is what's going on with 72offsuit's push against LL. It feels dishonest in a lot of places, but I think that might be an effect 72offsuit tunneling and not necessarily being scum.

Spoiler: Gypyx:

Weird and inconsistent reads. Pushes hard on LL though, puts them at L-1 when the momentum is up in the air. I read Gypyx hard scum yesterday, but after that flip, I'm not so sure. I think their inconsistency is derived from working from no information, not a ploy from scum. We'll see how the day develops though.

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

That's a fair point, but is there any reason why you aren't considering the possibility that Lucky killed Fwog? (unless i misunderstood your point)

This reads as town given that Lucky was scum. I don't know why scum would so early in D2 bring this up. It would I think be uncharacteristically forward and misdirecting.

As it stands, my reads are this:

Micc

: If Micc is scum, he's playing it very VERY well. Convincing and thorough interrogation of LL from the beginning. I read him as town most.

Gypyx

: The reads and reasons for voting LL when he did are bizarre. It's hard to call this one honestly. I read Gypyx as townleaning but only just. I think it reads as well-meaning but scattered town interactions. His post 441 pushes it over into town for me.

Enomis:

Defends LL specifically on three occassions just before the claims. His reasoning for suspecting Lucky is pretty good but he doesn't vote with them, instead he hammers when there's no other choice. No other interactions or challenges against Lucky. I'm reading enomis as most likely to be scum.

@Micc and 72, I want to hear your thoughts on this.

This took over an hour, so I'm going sleep. I'll see you all in the morrow.
Ciao

[Petrichorus]

It's not insane now that we are in the world where there is either a doctor or no second town PR. If 72offsuit is a cop, he's always neutralized by a roleblocker from here,

but if LL is a tracker he can get another result tonight by being protected by the doctor.

Yes, but there are still 2 things that bother me, first, you didn't even consider the possibility that LL was the roleblocker, and that's some fairly big odds you ignored there (50% as you said that you were only talking about scenarios where 72 lives)

And then, you also said that doc could protect LL if he was actually tracker, but the second TPR with a tracker is actually a jailkeeper, so I don't know how you made that confusion, but i think that :
the only way for town to know the possible setups are to look at the grid, and it's pretty hard to mix up roles by looking at it, so you must have learned the roles in some other way, and therefore, i think that you had information that town couldn't obtain

This is gold. Nice catch Gypyx. This may be a scumslip from Micc or he is doctor. But even if he is doctor, he would also not know that Lucky is goon and not roleblocker.
I think there doctor should claim now.

There is a doctor with tracker in the grid though. It is with the rolecop column. Why did you ignore that?
Unless you

KNOW

that we are under the roleblocker grid. Hmmm....

I just discussed why we dont claim. This reads as trying to build trouble off of a townxtown suspicion. Waiting for 72 to chip in, but nobody claim for godsake.

I get your point, but i dont think that a single instance of not discussing one scenario is a concrete pin on someone. We have time, lets use it and not be stupid yeah?

[Petrichorus]

I just discussed why we dont claim. This reads as trying to build trouble off of a townxtown suspicion. Waiting for 72 to chip in, but nobody claim for godsake.

I get your point, but i dont think that a single instance of not discussing one scenario is a concrete pin on someone. We have time, lets use it and not be stupid yeah?

Why though. I see no advantage to not claiming. Of course, not much advantage to claiming either.

Apart from making scum's life easier, sure. Let's just out whoever the doctor is for no tangible reason. It gives us another confirmed town today but will be the death of the doctor tonight, leaving us without another confirmed tomorrow. Better to have a chance of two strong town tomorrow than two today.


72. Is there anything else supporting Micc as scum as you see it? I see the solve as coming from looking into people's interactions with the Lucky wagon. Do you agree that it is most likely either Micc or Enomis? I just reread luckyxgypyx and remembered the weird interactions between them around 298. Does not feel scumxscum at all.
Can you look into my

Enomis, I bring up those three posts because while Lucky was at L-1 the first time, every post you made referenced Lucky and how you thought they were innocent or point FoS in other directions. To answer your question about Micc, here is a good example:

So what questions do you have for me?

Are you actively voting Gypyx for a purpose right now, or is the vote stale?

@Micc, I need to reread the 72o slot to determine if this push comes from town, comes from mafia, or both. That's where my head is at right now, because I just had to spend time addressing a bogus case made by taking my posts out of context. I still think Gypyx is probably mafia. I haven't been given an explanation for why town!Gypyx moves from hard townreading me D1 to immediately shading me D2 based on the nightkill. It still makes perfect sense for scum!Gypyx to do this, because he would have discussed it beforehand in the mafia PT. In other words, the immediacy with which he both abandoned his townread on me and tried to focus discussion on me without actually committing himself to a push on me is alarming.

@Tuxedo, you are right, I've been letting myself get frustrated with mafia lately far more than I should. I apologize. I am interested though, which moves do you believe I have made that I shouldn't have? I'd like to know what moves you are talking about, if you have addressed them before, and if not, why wait until now to bring it up?

I think that’s a pretty unfair argument against gypyx. For one, Tuxedo brought the topic up, so it doesn’t really follow that gypyx planned it as an opening in the scum PT. Secondly, I think gypyx’s posting is a lot closer to reconsidering the game state than abandoning Day 1 reads, which is a pretty fair thing to be doing following a mislynch.

It's weird that enomis just hasn't interacted with Lucky in any meaningful way. Lucky talked with pretty much everone in town except enomis and enomis for his part, defended Lucky every time people got sus, until their cover was blown and the only way to not be taken down after Lucky did was to immediately distance himself, thus the 180.

Essentially, I feel that if town lynches Micc today, we lynch enomis tomorrow. That said, we need more.

ALSO, trusting the opinion of confirmed town is viable. We know for a fact they have no agenda other than trying to do what's best for town. It's true that they might be wrong, but at least they aren't deliberately being misleading.

[Petrichorus]

Alright, Micc, can we have your read on Gypyx? I know you read enomis as more scum than Gypyx, but I'd like to hear your full read on Gypyx. Let's move this forwards.

Gypyx, how do you read Enomis? I know you read Micc as scum. Is it a Micc-today, enomis-tomorrow kind of affair?

72, how do you read Enomis? I know you agree with the points made about Micc.

[Petrichorus]

I am reasonably sure that I will survive the lynch today. If I am NK'd then so be it, but I want the lineup to be set before the end of today unless there is more information coming out over night. If Enomis is not scum then Micc is most likely next so yeah. I'd rather Enomis D3 lynch then Micc D4. That said, unless Gypyx is scum, it's win for town. And if Gypyx IS scum then he's made some bizarre plays that could have easily backfired and gotten him lynched at any point. I'd wager that if 72 had not claimed, Gyp might be dead.

I can see the argument for lining up lynches being somewhat susp as a scum trying to make it through lylo, as I said before, I was pretty sure after Lucky flipped scum then I would have plenty of FoS my way. I am now reasonably confident that I won't be on the chopping block today. In the night however, if we mislynch, scum has a 50% shot of hitting VT and 50% shot of hitting doctor. Alternatively, they could try roleblocking doctor and killing cop, but that's way riskier.

I think it's quite a leap to go from what I've said to "I think I'll make it to D4". Scum's only way to win is to point FoS at me or Gypyx (assuming Gypyx is town, which seems reasonable) and also lynch town today.

My only reservation is that scum don't benefit from lining up in a lynch order. Unless they wiggle out of it tomorrow. It's strange that this "I'll go down with you" behaviour is occurring, but it could be scum trying to call bluff.

SO:

Gypx, don't move your vote, let's give this up to the cop. I recommend Enomis as the lynch for today, we'll see what tomorrow brings if we are wrong.

VOTE: Enomis

72offsuit, it's all yours man. I don't know whether you want to claim intent to hammer or not, up to you. Doesn't seem particularly useful as scum would just claim VT.

If you want to push any of us on our decisions, now is the time.

[Petrichorus]

@Karnage, can you just edit the count? It looks like there's 3 on enomis. I'm assuming he didnt self-hammer xD

[Petrichorus]

Someone in town is doctor. No scum would claim mafia as they will definitely then lose lylo. What are you talking about?

[Petrichorus]

Wtf. Y are ppl role fishing and outright claiming

Exactly! My god. Enomis ive given reasons for my reads before. I'll scoop em back out if you'd like, or just go read my longest D4 post, you're in there.

We stated, dont claim, it's not in town's interest, yet you try and probe for doc and claim anyway. If you are town, you might as well be scum.

[Petrichorus]

Also, townreading gypyx isn't a bad play if you can plant suspicion somewhere else. You came into D4 pushing me and Micc, townreading Gyp, potentially to pocket them as they were already susp of Micc. I agree that in hindsight it was a bad move for scum, but not necessarily at the time.

[Petrichorus]

I'll bring a catchup in the next couple of hours. My apologies, been pulling some mad shifts.

Oh, hammer happened.

[Petrichorus]

Well, somewhat surprised to be here but I'm Doctor. As I said would happen yesterday if we claimed, I would be roleblocked and cop killed. Thanks for that by the way enomis. Completely un-necessary and unhelpful to try and figure out roles yesterday. As I said at the time, it is not and was not in town's best interest to help scum narrow down town- PR.

So, do I follow my gut and say Enomis has acted sufficiently enough against town to be lynched or follow 72's next lynch and go for Gyp?

Right, Gyp, claim. Then I'll make up my mind.

[Petrichorus]

Right, so: If I assume that scum are playing to the best standard, enomis boils down to a WIFOM. Did he make a OMGUS move to cover that he's scum?

Gyp and Lucky however comes to a pairing of particularly combative individuals, most of which seems organic, but Gyp's reasoning for suspecting Lucky is sus.
I don't think scum!Enomis would make gyp a universal town-read on purpose, ignoring WIFOM because that a) isn't likely and b) it isn't helpful in deduction. As such I'm leaning towards scum!Gyp actually, following 72offsuit's lead.

That said, my gut says follow the lynchline, but he can be quiet for now.

Enomis, make your case against Gyp. Gyp, make your case against enomis. I want to hear this. What, now you know for certain that the other is scum, lines up as scum moves from D1. I want totality.

[Petrichorus]

Just post what you can Gypyx. Enomis I want to give a fair response to your post since you put a lot of effort into it. I'll reply shortly.

[Petrichorus]

So, let's start with Enomis, point by point.

1) Having or not having a plan is kinda NAI. This post in question doesn't show you don't have a plan, it could easily be misdirection or feeling out where best to push to make a mislynch.

2) I get your point that it is almost a softclaim, but it's flimsy at best. Also, night 2 kill on tuxedo was still a pretty good move from scum considering he was the most townread, verging on conftown, with the exception of the cop. In addition, there was a possibility of mislynching me D3, if town had gone in that direction, whereas I cannot see a situation where we would have mislynched TM.

3)Right, I went through a few games to meta you and you're right, you do usually communicate more with scumbuddies. In all my meatspace games, it's usually a tell, but not in this situation it seems.
b) I'll bring that up with Gypyx. At the time it felt scummy to me, but got swept aside when Lucky flipped scum. The distancing worked it seems.

4) A clever or insanely stupid one. "How could I be scum, I set myself up to fail?"

5)Completely a non-point.

6)I still don't like your doc-hunting when I explained why it was a bad idea for town. If you hadn't proceeded to claim VT and claim doctor, there was a non-zero chance that I wouldn't have been roleblocked last night. If you thought I was sus, then you should have followed that instead of sheeping and dochunting. That said, I think it's probably shitty!town rather than scum. It's quite blatant and I don't think a town-presenting scum would do it.

7) It's something I've thought about. The big question is why did scum kill 72 and not me? What would I do in the situation? If one conftown was targeting me and one wasn't, I probably would kill the one targeting someone else going into a lylo, as it would likely cause doubts in the other towny, rather than validating the correct town.

As a side note: "Scum me would probably be more organised and not just typing whatever I feel."
I've read back through and your scum games are definitely not more organised xD

On your new post regarding Gypyx, I disagree that 2 is a stretch. I think that's sound logic. Point 3 however doesn't fit with me, to me it did seem quite genuine, then again it could be forced. Point 1 I agree with.

All that said, your voting record isn't perfect in itself. For reference, my post 838 details this.

Before I ISO Gypyx one last time, Gypyx, please respond to Enomis' latest post and in particular, I know we've discussed post 618 before, but I want to nail down my thoughts on it. You didn't at the time say what "other weird things" Lucky was doing. Seems to me you were pocketing and pushing a lynch on Lucky when there was no strong case for it. L-1 is kind of the sweet-spot for scum imho.

After that, I think I'll have to call it.

[Petrichorus]

My apologies for the delay, it was my birthday yesterday and got sidetracked. Writing a full response now

[Petrichorus]

Right, so here's my verdict.

I have thought through and here's my reasoning:

Gypyx was pushing for a vote on Lucky from BEFORE there was claims. Lucky was also pushing a vote on Gyp from the start of D2. If they were both scum, I'd expect a vote to distance them after the cop claims.

In addition, this statement is a great example of what I feel is town!Gyp:

And to answer your last question, I've tried to take it into consideration. I feel that the logic behind my decisions is sound, removed from my personal opinions.
As such, I'm happy to entertain suspicion on Lucky and I want to see what comes from that wagon.

The crux of Lucky/72 needs to be resolved as I see it, and pushing in both directions is beneficial as long as we reach a consensus, even if it's a compromise. I intend to continue pushing 72 unless it becomes more important for us to pursue Lucky.

Well, could you explain why you'd rather push 72 than LL, I feel like a flip from LL would generate more information

This was before all of the claiming and I feel that scum would not try and convince town to wagon their comrades to this degree. If this is a scum-play. It is exceedingly well done and I don't believe that it is. It's just too far of a reach.

In addition, this little gem really is something:

My current solve would be LL and enomis. Both I see as scummy, and both town read each other.

Every scummate I have ever had is rolling in their grave laughing at you for saying this.

Again, coming from scum, it's frankly bizarre.

The pushes from Lucky, scumreading Gyp were so frequent and he kept trying to guide the town towards a lynch on Gyp. Again, if this was after cop reveal, then I'd see it as a scum move, but this happened much earlier. My only thought is that they did turn on each other around the same time. It could be co-ordinated but I think that unlikely.

Next we have the killing of 72 instead of me. And I'll roll this in with townreading. Both enomis and Gyp town-read each other at the end of D3. Let's scum to a D4 with 72offsuit instead of me. 72 would have to look at why he was left alive, scumreading Gyp. Would he assume that Enomis had left him alive to finish off Gyp or Gyp, bluffing to try and push guilt towards enomis? What would scum do and why?

Any townie in this situation has no other information to go on and so, scum would fall in line and just call scum on one other person.

I feel that scum would do the latter. It's what I would do. So, in our current scenario that would make Enomis scum. Coupled with his interactions with Lucky, I'm pretty happy to call it. Enomis, you said you wanted a bet with Micc that lining up you two would be bad for town. I'm willing to take you up on that in spirit at least.

That said, I have one final question.

Enomis, if you still refuse to explain the below quote, can you please elaborate on what kind of information this is or what kind of source?

UNVOTE: gypxy.

I think I believe 72 unless there is a counter claim from someone other than lucky. Also for something outside the game which I can't explain.

[Petrichorus]

Spoiler: Post 2

Next we have the killing of 72 instead of me. And I'll roll this in with townreading. Both enomis and Gyp town-read each other at the end of D3. Let's scum to a D4 with 72offsuit instead of me. 72 would have to look at why he was left alive, scumreading Gyp. Would he assume that Enomis had left him alive to finish off Gyp or Gyp, bluffing to try and push guilt towards enomis? What would scum do and why?

Any townie in this situation has no other information to go on and so, scum would fall in line and just call scum on one other person.

I feel that scum would do the latter. It's what I would do. So, in our current scenario that would make Enomis scum. Coupled with his interactions with Lucky, I'm pretty happy to call it. Enomis, you said you wanted a bet with Micc that lining up you two would be bad for town. I'm willing to take you up on that in spirit at least.

Now let me reiterate why I am town. Yes, I agree that killing of 72 alone does not make me town in anyway. At most it can be scum wifoming.

So why I am

OBV TOWN

is not just because of this. It is because of multiple factors.
1)

I would have killed you night 2

.
Believe me, I would.

THE BEST POSSIBILITY OF A NIGHTKILL IS USUALLY KILLING A PR

. I really don't get why you think if I was scum, I would kill a person who was at most a townread versus a person who has high chance of being PR.
2)

I NEVER IGNORE MY SCUMBUDDY IN A MAFIA GAME.

I don't know why you put this point as NAI. BUT THIS IS TRUE. YOU EVEN VERIFIED IT THROUGH MY META. And I was not even thinking of bringing up this point until you used

THIS AS A CASE FOR ME BEING SCUM

. And after I being self-meta as defense, you call this being wifom. Really?

So I predicted that you would call me out in this so I purposely ignore my scumbuddy so that I can use this argument as wifom? Do you realise no one other than you took this seriously as even a case against me on day 3. How could I possibly predicted that you would call me out on this to purposely ignore my scumbuddy if i was scum.
3)

I was willing to take up a bet with Micc.

Again, I don't know why this is NAI. LETS ANALYSE AGAIN the pros and cons of me taking the bet.

If I am town:
1) If Micc is scum, we lynch scum, we win.
2) If Micc is town, we lynch town and lynch me day 4, we lose. (But I get to win the bet and ask Micc to change his avatar, so personal win for me considering that Micc is well-known in this site.)

If I am scum:
1) Lynch Micc day 3, Lynch me day 4, scum!me lose.
2) Lynch Micc day 3, say I don't want to follow the bet day 4, most likely get called out and lynched, scum!me lose.

WHERE AND HOW DOES A SCUM!ME AGREE TO A BET IF AGREED MEANS AN AUTO-LOSE FOR MYSELF.

So are you saying that I knew that the bet was against the rules and I did this purposely to make town townread me? Really? You think I will stoop that low and question my own integrity just to win one mafia game?

4)

I kill 72 who scumread gypyx instead of you who looks pretty much convinced that I am scum 99%

So if killing 72/you doesn't matter since it is wifom, why not I kill you instead? TBH, People usually are stubborn and don't re-evaluate their read even though they think they are.


-------------------------------------

For the above 4 points, let's say you take one point as wifom.(Although some points are not even possible as WIFOM, like point 3) But Could i be WIFOMING again and again just to make this argument? If you look at the basis of these actions without WIFOM, all of them are hurting scum!me and bad for scum!me.

If you are saying I cut myself/do one thing that is bad for scum to wifom. That I understand. But to cut myself again and again and put scum in the worst position

JUST TO WIFOM

?

--------------------------

I really feel like I am banging my head against the wall here. You need so little to townread Gypyx but you are unable to townread me over THINGS THAT ME AS SCUM WONT DO ESPECIALLY POINT 3. AND THE OTHER POINTS TO A LARGE EXTENT.

Firstly, If I am confbiased, it's because of your tone and the way you act in games. When meta'ing you, your style doesn't change whether you're scum or town. You're brash, a little rude and always pushing. If you want to call me out for confbias, why do you think I might be?

Saying it's so obvious, while quoting such silly reasons is frankly insulting. Have some grace man.

That said, I did re-evaluate. Killing 72 and leaving me alive when I was leaning towards you as scum D3 definitely did raise those concerns. It seems irritated that this play didn't work, but never mind.

Let's go through your points, although I dislike the dismissive tone. If you want to convince me, treat me like an equal and don't bring in fallacious nonsense yeah?

1) This point is completely useless. "This is what I thought at this point" Same as Gyp's theory on 72-cop. No point engaging with it. I haven't played with you before enough to know whether this is true or not. Your strongest case for this is that logically you would have killed me because of my newb question. Fair if true, but surely if it was so obvious, why would scum not have actually killed me? Your point is scum!enomis would have done it, but if you are scum, you didn't and if you're not, you couldn't so.... Yeah.

2) In your games you rarely ignore anyone. Ignoring somebody definitely bucks the trend. I'd argue that Lucky was one of the most engaged/central characters in this and was either wagoning or being wagoned most of his existence here. Whether the ignoring was indicative of either affiliation is up in the air frankly and personally the fact that it is such a stark thing, makes it seem like a slip-up rather than town not engaging. So to answer your point, yes it is contrary to your self-meta. BUT YOU BROUGHT IT UP and as such, shouldn't be a strong factor in my decision.
I don't think you did it on purpose for wifom reasons, that's crazy.

3)You are currently using this bet to PROVE that you're town. It's not proof, but seems like a cocky thing to do for scum. It's not in town's interest for you, if you're serious and town, to follow through with this bet. Winning something outside of the game by deliberately throwing this one that I'm in? Bullshit. I refuse to engage this with as if it is an action town!enomis made, it's dickish and stupid and if it's scum!enomis, then it's because you knew Micc would not take you up on that bullshit and could make the exact argument you're making.

4) General conjecture about "Most people think this way" nonsense. Perhaps I am a little stubborn, but I think I've proven my ability to change my mind and be rational. If you had a single STRONG argument for town!enomis, then things would be harder. I did reconsider at dawn D4 when I was alive and ISO'd Gypyx. I've described my reads on Gypyx and their suspicions.


Now, to address your earlier post:

Spoiler:

I feel you are conf-biased against me. I am not sure why when I am so obv town. I will reiterate how I am obv town again in the next post.

So let me address your post.

Gypyx was pushing for a vote on Lucky from BEFORE there was claims. Lucky was also pushing a vote on Gyp from the start of D2. If they were both scum, I'd expect a vote to distance them after the cop claims.

In addition, this statement is a great example of what I feel is town!Gyp:

Well, could you explain why you'd rather push 72 than LL, I feel like a flip from LL would generate more information

This was before all of the claiming and I feel that scum would not try and convince town to wagon their comrades to this degree. If this is a scum-play. It is exceedingly well done and I don't believe that it is. It's just too far of a reach.

How is this too far of a reach? Let me list down step by step why this post is not even bussing.

1) It s just a normal question with a comment that flip from LL would generate more information
2) Does it mean that everytime a scum make a comment on why you are pushing his scum buddy and say he would prefer lynching his scum buddy, he is town???
3) Did he influence you to put your vote on LL? No right? What degree are you talking about?
4) Who did he convince to go on the LL wagon? Zero people.
5) Look at his argument for voting LL, it

WOULD GENERATE MORE INFORMATION

. This statement should be pinging you left and right. What kind of information can we even get with LL lynch.

----------
There is also another possibility
6) I saw that Gypyx acknowledged that he may have saw through 72 disguise and may have thought that 72 is cop.
7) This realisation suddenly popped a lightbulb in my head. Let's say that you are right and Gypyx was trying to buss(Not even close btw). But let's humor that for a second.
8) This means that from your pov, this should be

NAI

. As both town and scum have super big motivation to do this. And LL is mafia goon.
9) I also don't know how Gypyx caught on to 72 being cop. 72 was not being so obv tbh.
10) He CONTINUED wagon against petri and switched to LL after doing a re-read of the game. Maybe you can ask Gypyx how he taught 72 was a cop. Because on hindsight, you can say that 72 is tunneling. But during the situation, I don't think the cop thing was obvious.

----------------

Lastly for pushes from Lucky on Gypyx. Yes, I agree that this is the reason why I

TOWNREAD

Gypyx before.

BUT

with the hindsight of me knowing who is scum and re-reading the interaction, did you see who LL convinced to be on the Gypyx wagon?

NO ONE, LITERALLY NO ONE.

His case wasn't super strong and didn't have any merit tbh.

It is only after Gypyx makes the L-1 vote on LL which I saw as scummy, jumped on GYPYX wagon then did it really take-off.(

I POINTED OUT THE POINT WHICH GOT PEOPLE ON THE WAGON.

)

-----------------------

I really don't know how you find Gypyx's action coming from scum bizarre. I really feel that you are in confirmation bias tunnel mode and have been thinking enomis scum from day 3 of the game.

-------------------

Enomis, if you still refuse to explain the below quote, can you please elaborate on what kind of information this is or what kind of source?

UNVOTE: gypxy.

I think I believe 72 unless there is a counter claim from someone other than lucky. Also for something outside the game which I can't explain.

This was because 72 signed up for a new game after he claimed cop because he thought he would die. This makes me think that he was town with the mindset of (I investigated LL guilty, I did my job, I am going to die tonight), time to register for a new game.

Scum 72 has lesser likelihood of doing it as he would still have to play day 4.

I didn't want to give the reason because I wanted to act like doctor to draw the kill on me if there is a doctor that time.

You addressed this point where I used Gypyx's post 620 AS AN EXAMPLE. You phrase everything as if derptown Petri is using this as my only supporting evidence. You want to know how many examples there are? You want an exhaustive list, I'll go through them if you want.

Tell you what, I'm just getting more irritated trying to respond in good faith to all your bullshit. If you're town, god help every game you're town in in future. I am tired of you saying everything with such a condescending slant.

Enomis if you're scum, you deserve this lynch. If you're town, maybe things would be different if you had a different attitude.
Gyp if you're scum, you and Lucky played a good game, if you're town, thanks for being rational and non-confrontational.

Peace guys.

VOTE: Enomis

[Petrichorus]

Thanks to the mod, well played scum-team. Expert distancing. Apologies to town. =3

[Petrichorus]

Now I've got the benefit of ghosts, aside from Enomis' take on Gypyx, was there anything stronger than we missed, Gyp wise?