Newbie 2011 - Game Over

[midwaybear]

what a stacked game
VOTE: votato because he is scum this time

[midwaybear]

shhh

[midwaybear]

My favorite mafia term is "red check".

What are yours?

LYLO

VOTE: Vote: Battle Mage

[midwaybear]

your favourite term is LYLO? wishful thinking this game.

VOTE: GeneralWu
that's L-2!

[midwaybear]

1. no
2. green for goon(contradiction lol)
2. 10 I saw BM ask this question before, so this is the answer to give
4. friend!

[midwaybear]

freddie's answers a bit weird though
her first answer doesn't make sense, and her last one is interesting

[midwaybear]

Why the "yes" or "no" answers to the first question? I assume votato was just trying to be funny. Were you mimicking him?

votato's answer made me think that you were asking "are you mafia"?
it was hoctac who asked the 1-10 question not you nvm

[midwaybear]

Midway I'm getting terrible dissonance from your new avi

oops

[midwaybear]

you should read 2003 :evilgrin:
i voted BM because of his naked vote, but yours is a lot more serious. I'm not sure how activity is LAMIST, and I disagree that's he's paranoid.
I guess we have officially exited RVS
pedit: YUH

[midwaybear]

is BM's L-1 vote on GeneralWu AI? It tells me he is a more spur of the moment player, so we should look out for that later.

[midwaybear]

you thought I asked "are you mafia?" because votato said yes? That is very odd. If he said yes, surely you'd assume the question was "are you town?"

votato is a troll, so that's why I thought the question was are you maf

[midwaybear]

3. How upset will you be if you're lynched on Day 1? (out of 10)

How does asking and/or answering this question help town? It almost seems like scum rolehunting.

bruh it's RVS, but apparently scum are more likely to answer in the 6-8 range.

I agree with Apogee that BM isn't really looking scummy. Not sure what Agar saw that I didn't.

[midwaybear]

Y'all, running a wagon up on Battle Mage seems like a great idea right now. 4 pages in and he's already given me serious doubts about how likely he is to be town, and that likelihood keeps approaching 0 rapidly.

Is there meta to back this up, or do you just think that he's been super scummy this game?
slight townleans on GWu and sleeper soul right now just because they are engaging and moving the game forward

[midwaybear]

GWu wasn't chainsawing AGar. He was merely defending Battle Mage...
votato seems to be playing a little lazily, and there is still a week before deadline.

[midwaybear]

Yeah, but a chainsaw defense is when an someone defends another player by attacking their accuser. This is not what GWu did. GWu just defended Battle Mage by replying to AGar's points. He never attacked AGar.

[midwaybear]

I don't think he's playing badly per say because a few of the points were valid (like the early votes). The other points might have been conf bias and wanting to get an early gut read right

[midwaybear]

I appreciate that, but it's not helpful for the newbies if you just nominate me as Player Leader - let's keep it democratic eh?

I hope to have some time to do closer to real time interactions with people this week

I like to do that too. Townpoints for Apogee!

I have a (silly?) fear that by revealing my reads, mafia will know which of them is under the most danger.

This seems like an honest answer, and I did something like this in 2003.

apogee talks about how he likes that Agar puts himself out there by casing and pushing people in post 130. is that sheeping? or is that a newbit trying to learn and imitate something that makes sense to him?

I don't think this is sheeping, but it's more of Apogee pointing out how he likes Agar's aggressive behavior. I prefer to be aggressive compared to passive, but I am still learning how

I have a gut TL on gobble for post 141. Seems like a top of the head comment that town are more likely to do. I also appreciate votato's prod towards GG, but that is ultimately NAI.

[midwaybear]

Yeah, there’s lots of little things from SleeperSoul that make me still townlean him.

[midwaybear]

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

honestly no scumreads so far. Everyone except for you and BM have played relatively safe games so far.
might have to reread sometime to find posts that ping me. I think I'll try to defend sleeper.

@Apogee

[midwaybear]

Midway I'm surprised at the lack of content he's posted compared to my previous game with him d1. Whether this is a change in his playstyle or him being hesitant to post as scum I couldn't really tell you but he posted up a storm d1 in Newbie 2003.

also, 2003 was an iconic game. My favorite game of mafia thus far. This game has been nice too though!
Also, I did have a comparably slow start in 2003 too, and this game has been moving slower too. My defense of Sleeper has been pushed to tommorow

[midwaybear]

Freddie did you get a lot of advice from someone since your last game? Or have you read a bunch of guides or something?

coached in the scum pt

[midwaybear]

uh what? I don’t get that feeling, and why do you think she is a PR compared to goon.

Avalon is fun.

[midwaybear]

yes lol

[midwaybear]

i am typing that up right now

[midwaybear]

Spoiler: sleeper quotes

You know, originally my BM vote wasn't that serious, it was just a pure gut-read with a silly justification added on top. But now that I've reread everything, I'm starting to actually suspect BM a little bit.

The amount of activity this early comes off as LAMIST to me, and the overall tone seems a little too paranoid. Too bad he's away for 3 days. Maybe the flurry of activity early on was in anticipation of being away for a few days.

But it's the activity in combination with overall tone. He seems slightly more tense than in the one game of his I've read (newbie game 2004).

So rather than my vote being pretty much random/pure gut-read, it's actually slightly substantiated now. Either that or I'm confbiasing because I want my gut-read to be right.

It's early, so this read is not very strong, but it's the only one I have and I figured I'd share what I'm thinking.

His reasons for scumreading are an extreme reach, and it almost sounds like he is scumreading someone just for the sake of a scumread. However, he does back it up with meta, and high effort is generally townie(not always though). Additionally, it is redeemed by what he said in the bolded part. He sorta acknowledges the read is weak, but that he wanted to share his thoughts. This is definitely town motivated.

3. How upset will you be if you're lynched on Day 1? (out of 10)

How does asking and/or answering this question help town? It almost seems like scum rolehunting.

This is actually an interesting quote because it relates to sleeper talking about scum rolehunting like he suspected freddie of doing. I know in Avalon, it's really important for scum to figure out who certain town PRs are, so perhaps this is why he has brought it up.

I pretty much agree with everything GeneralWu just said in post 94.

It seems like AGar is too eager to lynch BM. To me it would have seemed townier if AGar toned down his scumread on BM, but instead he doubled down with even weaker arguments. I wanted to see some stronger arguments, or a retraction, not a piling-on of weaker arguments. Like, I want my initial gut-read to be right too, but I'm willing to be wrong on that.

Now he flips onto Agar attacking Battle Mage. The argument for scumreading Agar here is good, and this also shows that he reconsiders reads which is also good.

The wiki says Chainsaw Defense is only a reliable scum tell when we already know mechanically that the defendee is scum, and I have to agree. Pretty sure that as an SE, AGar would know/agree with the wiki, though I'm not sure if him bringing it up is AI.

meh some light shade. I don't think this is necessarily scummy even if shading is generally considered so.

Yes, I see your point. It seems like AGar might be playing 'bad' on purpose... the question is, why?

ok this quote is pretty weird lol

Actually his overall game seems fine to me so far (in terms of optimal play, regardless of alignment), I was just referring specifically to his mentioning of the chainsaw defense.

now, Sleeper backtracks and says that he meant Agar's use of chainsaw defense was bad, and not overall play. I'm not sure I buy this, and it is sorta of sus.

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

this progression is weird because he doesn't really explain why he reads BM as scum, and he was just focused on Agar.

Can I hear from you what you think of my vote on you?

Sure. I don't mind your vote on me. I think you're picking up on my over-eagerness to move the game forward.

I am having a general feeling throughout this game that everything is moving too slowly. But this is my first forum mafia game. So I think I just need to get used to the pace of forum mafia.

Also... I haven't addressed the following because I wasn't sure how useful it would be to bring... But I have been somewhat holding back my reads this entire game. Up until now I ~feel~ like the general consensus has been that I'm obviously town. I have a (silly?) fear that by revealing my reads, mafia will know which of them is under the most danger. I do have a tendency towards tinfoil hattery...

I can see how your vote on me is probably coming from a town perspective. I was about to ping you for reads like I did freddie and GG, but your vote on me gave me a slight town read on you. So I pinged the remaining players who I have no real reads on.

This reads as really LAMIST now. Yikes. I don't see scum ever saying that they are a consensus townread in this situation, so this is one of those little moments that make a townread.

I was waiting for AGar to comment on you two being TvT before touching my vote, but sure, I'll change it to you now.

VOTE: Battle Mage

I feel you've consistently been the scummiest player this whole game.

why out of the two did you select BM as scum?

Because AGar seems to agree with me more, and BM was my initial gut read.

If you're town, this is V bad.

I agree that this is bad, but I don't really know how to justify my reads that well because they are mainly based on gut.

Yeah, that was also a bit strange, but Sleeper seems honest about admitting where his game can improve which is townie.

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?

It's a strategy I adopted from IRL play. My friends all know I don't like playing as scum, and I'm too easy to read as scum. So I play scummy in the beginning to try to get scum on my side and then turn on them. I was always confident in my ability to be read as innocent. This was in an Avalon setup where scum didn't know who one of their members was.

I was trying to do some 5D plays, but I realize I'm probably not good/readable enough to do it here.

lol another weirdly town post from Sleeper.

And then we have the PR Stuff.

Spoiler: stuff

Idk I sorta read sleeper like Apogee from game 2003, but Apogee was a little less awkwardly honest if you know what I mean. It's just that his explanations are sometimes weird, but he is a newbie and this is probably a result of him being used to a different meta.
There are also some quotes I didn't include which have sleeper prodding people for their thoughts which isn't necessarily townie, but still welcome. Yeah, I'm pretty confident that he's town, and I would like for an elaboration on the BM scumread.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: votato
I'm feeling it again

[midwaybear]

I do like freddie more now, though.... I understand my pr hunting theory was way out there.

I mean I town lean on freddie more.

this is town

[midwaybear]

also its kinda hilarious that midway is saying that townies wouldnt say they're consensus townreads

I said the exact opposite.

I don't mean to be rude, but at what point do we seriously consider GG as a policy lynch for inactivity?

I am against policy lynches especially in small games like this. Let's push votato.

right now I'm more focused on figuring out who I should be sheeping.

me

I voted votato mainly because I felt like him pointing out freddie's potential scumbuddies was unnecessary. He's also been mostly commenting on the state of the thread like GeneralWu.

[midwaybear]

generalwu isn't really contributing, but I think the same as him so he is probably town.
as of right now, scum is votato and apogee for me(maybe freddie).

[midwaybear]

tbh, half the stuff sleeper says is in that "awkward honest" category, but the other half just makes be go wth.

[midwaybear]

am i supposed to convince you that you are scum
yeah, you might be town though. Having doubts on sleeper even though I defended him, so I might go votato-sleeper for my solve. But we probably shouldn't be speculating teams yet
GG and GWu I am decently confident in being town. I never scumread lurkers so yeah.
pedit: oops maybe

[midwaybear]

lol
the sheeping thing is so weird. A tinfoil hat theory is that he is more motivated to post like this since I already said I townread posts like that.

[midwaybear]

i don't really know why I SR you apogee. I noticed that you are playing different from 2003, but then I realized you were playing mostly the same? I'm not really sure. I think you are probably town herem yet not as strong as GWU.

[midwaybear]

yeah, you're town
Gwu, GG, ApoG are my strongest townreads now.

[midwaybear]

howrusogood

[midwaybear]

i am agreeing with everything GeneralWu is saying. WOw

[midwaybear]

that's sorta what I was thinking because votato's speculation of who freddie is scum with was completely unnecessary as he admitted he didn't scumread freddie in the first place and that it was just "useful info". I'm not sure if it's throwing shade, but it's not really helpful IMO.
Yes, the PT was a joke.
pedit:

[midwaybear]

yeah, but votato's early game was mostly fine(a couple of questionable overreactions)
like this post seems town-motivated

mmm, i think we should refrain from speculating too much about people's exact roles, as it only serves scum interests. all we need to do is speculate about who is scum. and putting someone at L-1 is generally not a good idea that early on, but at the same time, it draws a lot of attention to you if you are scum. either way, its a bad play imo, so i dont really know how to sort it without more info.

[midwaybear]

do I put sleeper soul at L-1 here? I'm really conflicted, and I would feel especially bad if he was town because he's new.

[midwaybear]

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

[midwaybear]

this isn't a whole lot of context. again, midway, you're looking super sus to me because of posts like this: no context, no explanation, and nothing that pushes the game forward. im beginning to feel like a broken record.

False. Read my iso.

you've said multiple times that you town read me.

False. I never townread you.

1 scum caught. 1 to go.
LAL

[midwaybear]

gobbles is never scum here
it's a bad example for newbies to lurk as scum, and this situation is sorta like enomis in 2003

[midwaybear]

ok

[midwaybear]

why is freddie town?

[midwaybear]

also, gobbles has barely appeared (and been prodded at least once if not twice). which is relevant to my pondering of the question how can you be sure that he would be my likely scumpartner? you haven't seen his style unless you know him from somewhere else and maybe he's a bad player. if he's a bad player and he's coaching me in the scum thread then that would disprove your assumption that he could coach me, immediately. so it tells me you're taking a shot in the dark at assuming gobbles is a good enough player to coach me which is a big assumption to make. i expect more from you votato.

like wth is this logic? Freddie pulls the fact that gobbles is a bad player out of nowhere and uses it to attack votato.
what?

[midwaybear]

no

[midwaybear]

you got any better option than freddie? nobody buying that shit.

your gobble case is a massive

[midwaybear]

Join me on Gobbledygook if you haven't already!

wth why
give him a chance to actually talk. This is crazy opportunistic from you

pedit: freddie, votato I'm fine with lynching today. I really do not want to lynch Sleeper because he should be able to live so he can learn.

[midwaybear]

as confident as i can without seeing green cop check
maybe 8-9
i do see that he is posting on other threads, but that isn't AI tbh. Just shows a lack of interest. Wouldn't he be more invested as an SE to help set a good example of scumplay?

[midwaybear]

imagine having a lurker as your biggest scumread.
BM, how strong is your read on sleeper soul.

[midwaybear]

it's different here because gibus and poyzin both had content to evaluate. Gobble doesn't.
How about you let him talk before trying to power a wagon on him.

[midwaybear]

bm makes a compelling argument about getting rid of GG, but i don't agree that we should policy lynch someone based on zero participation only.

you realize that's his only argument right?

[midwaybear]

are you asking me to defend BM and his arguments?

where did I say that? No

Am I ever scum with battle mage? I don't thikn so

[midwaybear]

uh you realize it could be lack of interest which is not necessarily AI?

[midwaybear]

Yes, I would like an explanation from him too. But it is not really reasonable to run up a wagon on him like BM did which is why BM lost some town points to me.

[midwaybear]

hmm. We should just let him explain tbh, and if it's still fishy, then I suppose we can end day with GG hang.

[midwaybear]

yeah, I guess. Since gobble is posting content in other games, it is sus now.
But I normally don't scumread lurkers, and it tend to work out.

[midwaybear]

I tend to tr lurkers in general, but i didn't know he was posting content outside of this game

[midwaybear]

ok freddie could be town upon a reread

[midwaybear]

actually, i can't really read her so not town

[midwaybear]

he said he was sick, so we would expect him not to be posting that much. However, he has been posting game advancing posts outside of this game while all of his posts here were mostly to respond to prods or prod dodge. I suspect it is due to a lack of interest, but it is definitely a little sus now because we would expect him not be posting that much anywhere.

You moved up on my readlist for that(pushing for clarification).

[midwaybear]

then doesn't follow up, after being asked numerous times....then votes me, without explanation or follow up after being asked several times.

I already outlined why I voted votato and I am willing to revote him.
I voted you because I felt that many of the questions you were asking were pretty useless and not that insightful/helpful to the game. However, I also feel like some of your posts(like the one regarding your read on sleepersoul) show genuine want to solve. So I think now is the time I unvote(for now?) Gotta look at the votato.

[midwaybear]

i discussed with gwu yesterday
you can find it iso

[midwaybear]

How can scum get mislynched?
Sleeper honestly looking worse in that interaction with BM.

[midwaybear]

^wifom NAI BS

???
how

[midwaybear]

you're next on my list midway

im never scum with battle mage though

[midwaybear]

yeah, but votato's early game was mostly fine(a couple of questionable overreactions)
like this post seems town-motivated

mmm, i think we should refrain from speculating too much about people's exact roles, as it only serves scum interests. all we need to do is speculate about who is scum. and putting someone at L-1 is generally not a good idea that early on, but at the same time, it draws a lot of attention to you if you are scum. either way, its a bad play imo, so i dont really know how to sort it without more info.

that's sorta what I was thinking because votato's speculation of who freddie is scum with was completely unnecessary as he admitted he didn't scumread freddie in the first place and that it was just "useful info". I'm not sure if it's throwing shade, but it's not really helpful IMO.
Yes, the PT was a joke.
pedit:

not much, but here. It's not a strong scumread, so you could be town here.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: SleeperSoul
YUH YUH YUH

[midwaybear]

his interaction with BM sucks

[midwaybear]

UNVOTE: SleeperSoul
need to reconsider and deeply read the interaction between him and BM. I feel like BM was misrepping SS at some points like when he quoted a single sentence of SS's long post about BM to make it seem like Sleeper was just making accusations without evidence.

[midwaybear]

idk dude
I do recall lying yesterday, but I'm not really sure. I guess you are trying to say that I flipped on gobble in an opportunistic matter. My best explanation is that I think I was being too stubborn so I changed my mind. I just want an explanation tbh
Gobble, why were you posting content in other threads but not here?

[midwaybear]

so you already strongly townread Agar, but you still wanted to see his reaction?
hmm

[midwaybear]

you legit said you wanted to see how reacted. Why would you do this if you "strongly" town read him?

[midwaybear]

I know AGar would say it's TvT either way, but I wanted to see/feel the WAY he said it.

[midwaybear]

i don't like how you are trying to cover up your inconsistencies by citing stupid plays. Did you learn anything from the "play"?

[midwaybear]

why were you talking about Agar's quality of play? Was that also part of the play.
Why is BM scum?

[midwaybear]

tbh your case on him was pretty bad. You misinterpreted a lot of what he said. I agree that the gobble push was bad, and I really could like gobbles to explain why he ignored this game. Maybe micc can pause the time?

[midwaybear]

tbh, I am getting more and more annoyed at him.

[midwaybear]

because?

[midwaybear]

i am never scum with battle mage and I highly doubt gg is ever scum with battle mage
lol

[midwaybear]

read our interactions like when I voted GWu and he voted right after. That's way too stupid to be two scum.
And read back to see when he basically called my townread on you bad and pushed me to vote gobbles. That's not two scum.
I can pull specific quotes if u want, but I don't want to.

[midwaybear]

thanks for the explanation. I still think you're probably scum though

[midwaybear]

I agree with sleeper here. Claim is unnecessary, and I sorta want gobble gone now(very disappointing play from him).

Pedit: hmm

[midwaybear]

That is quite unhealthy...
Your case on him is meh at best.

Pedit:

[midwaybear]

I wish I was scum with BM because he is good at scum.

[midwaybear]

I feel like as scum Sleeper would have claimed already. His refusal to claim seems townie to me.

[midwaybear]

Actually, town has won 100% of the time when they no lynched D1 in newbie games with this setup

[midwaybear]

not today, tonight
i think

[midwaybear]

SleeperSoul is either openwolving or being super noob-town...

[midwaybear]

Also, lol@Midway firmly believing BM's hyperbolic claims regarding gameplay.

wut?

Also, I hardclaim "town".

[midwaybear]

I am pretty confident that this is a town apogee. He's playing mostly similar to last game...
What's the big difference?
I do think we need to consolidate and group together.
I prefer lynching in between sleep and gobbles.

[midwaybear]

unoffical votecount
sleeper-apogee, BM, me
Wu-gobble, Agar
me-sleeper, freddie
apogee-votato
not voting-wu

[midwaybear]

i have townleans on everyone except for sleeper and gobble.
I could be sold on Battle Mage, but sleeper was sorta panicking in a non town way like apogee said.

[midwaybear]

votato was pretty lazy early game, but I get town vibes from him now.
I townread apogee because I see scumhunting and town motivated pushes(like when he asked me to engage with the thread).

[midwaybear]

Mod can we get an extension because gobbles?

[midwaybear]

GWu is sleeper scum here?

[midwaybear]

yeah, we really need an extension because our wagons are so messed up rn

[midwaybear]

Sleeper is voting BM so it’s not

[midwaybear]

VOTE: SleeperSoul
Wagons both at L-2

[midwaybear]

Did you forget about this game?

[midwaybear]

I hardclaim "town".

tbh I don't really have a solve right now. Look between Sleeper/BM tommorow.
Best case is that I'm not lynched, but whatever.

[midwaybear]

the case against me is because I lied about gobble and that I don't explain my scumreads?
lesson learned to not lie, but I do think I explained my scumreads.

[midwaybear]

because what? What's your basis for this?

[midwaybear]

final reads-I trust gwu, agar, and votato
neutral on apogee, freddie, gobble
scum between sleeper and BM

I really don't want to be lynched here though

pedit:???

[midwaybear]

whoever hammers please give intent and let me respond because there might be some things I wish to say

[midwaybear]

i am willing to wagon BM

[midwaybear]

none of you are voting him though...
I am willing to either lynch sleeper or BM here.

[midwaybear]

so stupid
wth

[midwaybear]

gobbledygook, please convince me you're town. At the moment, in my heart, I just feel that you aren't trying at all, and couldn't care less about lynching scum here. And I've seen you as town, and you did actually try really hard. I also know you're a better player than coming into a newbie game as an SE and sheeping votato.

I am saving this post to my iso to comment post game to PM you. My play here has nothing to do with my alignment (you can see in the other Fogey what I mean if you doubt me).

I do not want to talk about why I am playing the way I am playing in the Newbie queue specifically. I don’t want to taint their perceptions of this site or what is good play.

pm me too

[midwaybear]

you were sorta scummy

[midwaybear]

Y'all should join the cult game wu is hosting! BM is in it already. It's 9 players, so it shouldn't be too overwhelming

[midwaybear]

yeah, you were a lot better for sure. I think you played pretty well D1, but then real life made you more inactive D2. And since GWu was being pressured, people might have felt that your absence was a convenient one. Well nothing you can do about it.

[midwaybear]

oh well. The wording of the ban made it seem not political but that he was just being bad.

Also, can I get speakeasy/gtkas access? I have submitted the request for more than a week.

[midwaybear]

what did he say? I do not have access to whatever he wrote.

[midwaybear]

thank you
noted