Newbie 2062: The Hubble Telescope - End!

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Andante

This is for being a chad in the other game.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: T3 entrance seems forced and like they don't know how to make an entrance. T3's read on Rational is also nothing they should be town-reading them for logically. Scum has a very easy job at creating early content as there is less to work on and form a legitimate looking town perspective, that and if you actually take into consideration their content. Majority of it was accepting the fact that it's satire and a small portion is explaining their read and it's overall gut.

The reasonings to why Andante's entrance is bad is plain wrong in my opinion. Rational pulling apart Andante's entrance, acknowledging it's satire, shading them and then proceeding to not vote there because I was there is a completely weird argument and doesn't hold much weight but gut reads are gut reads and I know that all too well so I am not going to pull it apart too much and I am not stating it's scummy in and of itself. Also to add to that, if Rational flips scum, we need to have a look at Orc because of that response taking into consideration that they're a newbie, I am not expanding on that as I don't like giving heavy logic around an associative read prior to them flipping to prove that case.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also to add to that, if Rational flips scum, we need to have a look at Orc because of that response taking into consideration that they're a newbie, I am not expanding on that as I don't like giving heavy logic around an associative read prior to them flipping to prove that case.

If I am town why is Orc less likely to be scun than if I am scum, considering the reaction to me?

I never said anything about anyone being less likely to be scum if you flip town.

[JacksonVirgo]

Since there are no votes on Andante at all, now I will vote. Also, I townread Ivyeo very much for her third response to things being designed to push for new avenues of debate as well as keep old ones going. I also townread that her ibitial reaction matched the vibe of Andante despite Andante voting her, it shows that she was feeling friendly towards Andante despite having every reason to quietly hide resentment, she actually pushes further on the scummy read on her, laughing with the joke that she's scum. The fact she found amusement in it is a subconscious sign she knows she's town in her mind and finds it amusing the reasoning Andante used. This is a very towny way to approach the early DP1, including that she also defends my attack without defending the logic itself. This is even supporting that she found it amusing how Andante put so much effort into justifying a joke reason.

VOTE: Andante

Also, JacksonVirgo is town for the logic and effort put in. To that post where they change their vote.

Why would there be any issue in having two votes on Andante, and if you think they are scum why are you actively *not* wanting to wagon them? Also you explained the Ivyeo town-read but then didn't explain the reason you TR me for my logic, could you please do that

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: rationalmadman

This is fairly likely Town, just a gut-read from reciprocating a read I haven't actually announced yet.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: rationalmadman

For me Rational is strong town and Andante is lean scum. Explain?

Andante's playstyle seems to get them scum-read way early on. Just throwing that out there now rather than later

[JacksonVirgo]

Why would there be any issue in having two votes on Andante, and if you think they are scum why are you actively *not* wanting to wagon them? Also you explained the Ivyeo town-read but then didn't explain the reason you TR me for my logic, could you please do that

If I vote two votes this early on someone, it has very bad consequences if even one other person decides to go for it. Regardless of me being right or wrong, it's a much better position in early D1 bandwagons to either lead hard on a hard read or be positioned on someone you're ready to unvote in an emergency, to test others (that is why everyone positions on different people with random votes).

There is no use of me tunneling Andante that hard and fast based solely on the reaction to me and the first post. Obviously it's a soft scumread, not a gard one.

Tbe effort you put into your first post would simply be overall a waste of effort if you're scum in a newbie game. You attacked, defended, analysed in ways that showed analysis of a deep kind and also probed questions and replied from others. Even now, you are trying to spot flaws in thinking in me despite me townreading you. This all balances as town or extremely overplaying scum.

Overplaying scum is fine, however it's not likely you'd try this hard just for the first few posts you make in a newbie game unless you really wanted slips and reads to occur.

1. It takes 5 players to hammer, and if anybody speed-hammers they can be the next elimination there is absolutely no reason why you don't vote who you scum-read early on especially when it's only one vote on them beforehand. A wagon is a pro-town event as we get more information on the people who you think are scum. Avoiding that is anti-town as we get less information.

[JacksonVirgo]

So at this point most the basis or accusations on because of Andante's opening post and Rationals response to it. Logically scum doesn't want to try to attract attention early on, it's better play for them to try to lay low to some extent and let town make mistakes lynching their own. Except for that rare scummie who just doesn't care and wants to go gun's a blazing

Rational seems to be a heavy poster - quick to search out rabbit holes it seems
Andante - aside from one joke post which was probably cause she played with that person before, nothing much
T3 seems to be reactive - Basically questioning post from different people
Demainer basically a simple - someone is guilty post with nothing behind it
Jackson - seems to a fun early post - then a logical one
Ivy - couple simple short post, nothing more

If i had to gut read anyone right now it would be Rational - playing the guns a blazing scummie out to prove themselves town to quickly

Vote: Rational

Since ya'll seem to like the early voting without much backing it or chance for people to discuss much yet, but it's also day 1 so probably not going to get a lot out of people

This vote seems out of nowhere and it's as if you feel the *need* to scum-read Rational without actually having the logic to do so. Whether that be because of the statement I said from earlier or whatnot, not feeling good about Rational/Orc to be completely honest.

[JacksonVirgo]

Interesting start to the game and quite an active day 1 but i think a lot of that came from Rational's stirring.

Honestly right now the most questionable on seems to be T3
Andante got caught up by Rational's early post so not really sure there
Ivyeo seems to be active but basically making simple post to appear participating with town without doing much to offend
Rathe - Similar - to Ivyeo
Jack - hasn't posted much except early
Clasko - good cover for that scum laying low but probably town
Demainer - still never explained that Ivy is scum vote post

If i was to guess - one of Rathe-Jack-Clasko-Ivy is scum
the other is with the rest of us (present company excluded)

That is terrible reasonings as to throw me into the scum-pile. It's as if you feel threatened that I possibly nailed the scum-team on the head again ahaha
I have no idea where I am voting but this is as good of a place as any.

Rational if they are Town are more of an asset atm due to their varying reads.
VOTE: Orc

[JacksonVirgo]

Jack - I'm basing off two 2 scum - one being active and posting - hoping to control - the other more laid back - you fit into the later group but with multiple people.
I think it's rare you get 2 scum who are both pushing heavy but it's possible but i would suspect one scum in the heavy chatters and one in the more reserve chatters

And you seriously say Rational is more town for his half cooked reads early on just to make them, lol. interesting

I never said Rational is more Town. You both keep putting words in my mouth, I said if they *are* Town and my reads is wrong I would much rather them in the game than you as we stand now.

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't think SE/Newbie really matters too much tbh, but yeah JV likely town lol I like his start, and I know what's to come in this game, so scum should be scared... unless he decideds to tunnel another town again lmao

I completely agree that SE/Newbies aren't leagues apart, SE literally just means they've played a few extra games and that does not equate to skill at all. Scum should indeed be scared regardless heh, because I still caught scum slippin' in that game even with my bad start lol

[JacksonVirgo]

Andante seems to be using classic scum Appeal to Winrate. Basically saying : I'm too valuable ton to lim.

Can you explain what this appeal means? I have not heard of it

[JacksonVirgo]

I will not unvote Andante at this point. There is high effort put in but there is something really 'appeal to emotion' as opposed to 'appeal to logic' about andante's approach. So, I will not unvote, I'm willing to push through to force a claim. I'm aware I said 2/5 is worrying before but the reaction of Andante here feels like scum trying to strongly imply 'don't you dare vote me'. This also strikes me as odd as in an earlier post, Andante specifically reolied to me saying that as town, she doesn't give a damn whwn being BW'd on but basically says 'fuck you' to those voting her. I am very inclined to scumread Andante at this point, there is a very high stress level to being voted that simply doesn't make sense to me.

The push on T3 could definitely be what Town Andante would do. I even buy the reasoning, however I don't quite grasp why Andante's hostility to people seems solely based on how likely they are to vote her.

I would actually like you to read through this game here this is a recently closed game and they did a lot of AtE in there and it's the reason why their actions in this game is NAI this far into the game.

[JacksonVirgo]

I would even prefer an Orctin elimination by far. Nit because he is voting me byt because of how ridiculous and shallwo the reasoning why has been for any of his reads and actions (including the vote on me).

So unless Orctin is a viable vote, I will stick to Andante if today is Andante vs T3. T3's claim of reaction testing me seems genuine, more genuine than id he'd justified the hard TR on me without saying it was a bait for me.

They are being wagoned more than Andante...

[JacksonVirgo]

Honestly Day 1 is always a Crapshoot - and odds are against town with any day 1 vote cause it's just to easy to basically have 2 townies facing off against each other which i am starting to wonder if that's what is happening with Rational and Andante. At which case then need to think about who's really egging the two sides on - there's your scummie

I would need to read back to look that way at the last few pages, as busy at work so do it later, but i would suspect your best scum target isn't one of them, but someone on the side wanting to keep attention there.

Vote: NoVote

I am just saying this now, regardless of the fact if you're thinking of a no-elim. If you are, we are not doing it. That happened in my last game and it got me so mad it wasn't even funny.

Chances of scum getting killed at night is 0%.
Chances of scum getting eliminated during the day is always more than that and thus not doing so will land in a bigger issue to the Town than not.

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't think SE/Newbie really matters too much tbh, but yeah JV likely town lol I like his start, and I know what's to come in this game, so scum should be scared... unless he decideds to tunnel another town again lmao

I completely agree that SE/Newbies aren't leagues apart, SE literally just means they've played a few extra games and that does not equate to skill at all. Scum should indeed be scared regardless heh, because I still caught scum slippin' in that game even with my bad start lol

BRAND newbies are definitely different, but yeah.

You have no idea of their external experience with forum mafia, let alone their natural skill at the game. Trust me, thinking they're not as good will be your downfall.

[JacksonVirgo]

I did a mathematical run of a 9 player 2 scum mountainous a while ago and scum had about a 59% chance if we elimmed every day and a 71%chance if we no elimmed on d1.

Indeed. That's of course not taking into account PRs but yeah.

[JacksonVirgo]

why I believe she's Scum is because the reads she has don't add up at all in my opinion.

Could you throw me some examples

[JacksonVirgo]

Could you throw me some examples

I'll quote later if need be but basically, Andante's reads follow this pattern:

Those that scumread her are scum.

OMGUS is not always a scum trait, it can be but it's not the rule.

Those that townread those that scumread her lean scum or are unreadable.

I do not recall this being the case, back this up with quotes if you can

Those that lurk are scum.

Same as #2

Those that go gentle on her despite contributing are town.

Same as #3

I have found that this adds up to mean she is either scum or is detrimental to Town if she is Town. It's not just who, it's the why. The actual reasoning behind her reads is always reading as 'let me say something to justify it' not ever wow, Andante has properly analysed this player and makes a decent point.

For instance, when I asked her what kind of meta read led her to scumread T3 she gets furious at me and tells me to reread his games. Then, says nothing more.

When she scumreads Clasko, she lists the quotes, says some generic reason for it being scummy and doesn't even remotely justify it, Clasko could easily be her partner that she tried to soft-bus (bussing where you intend to ubvote them but just in case, your vote makes you look towny later). Orctin coukd also be her partner, both have a very strange set of interactions where Orctin and Andante are two of the most active players and it's a cutthroat atmosphere yet neither has attacked the other at all, in fact Andante did quite Orctin's read on her and soecified how ridiculous it was which Orctin ignored and Andante later tells me ahe has absolutely no read on him (she should scumread him).

I can see why you think that this makes them scum but I heavily disagree. In previous games they acted very much on emotion and got extremely pissed off at people pushing them, calling them scum in return.

[JacksonVirgo]

Btw Andante JV is a viable team.

An undertoned agenda that could be interpreted in JacksonVorgo's decebt posts are to attacke and anyone they feel is viable to take the heat off of Andante. I did notice this but I did and do currently Town read it. I do notice it however, I'd like to see JV and Andante grill one another a little.

Did you read that game I linked you, they're acting

insanely

like that game and I am not wanting to eliminate that on day 1. You're also throwing me in there simply because your reads do not align with my own, and that's weak reasonings. Also you expect me to throw my reads away to grill a town-read of mine? Serious?

[JacksonVirgo]

Fuck sake.

[JacksonVirgo]

Rathe are you counterclaiming or are you scum

[JacksonVirgo]

Im out but I'll catch up when I get home.

[JacksonVirgo]

But I am willing to vote this through to elimination without Rathe outing if everyone agrees Rathe is strobgly implying something here.

This is the scummiest thing I have ever heard in my life. Actually think about what you say before you say it.

If we do what you're wanting, if Andante is Doctor they will get eliminated without a counterclaim which wastes an elimination completely. If Andante is mafia fake-claiming, Rathe would die tonight out of policy just for keeping their vote on a PR claimant. What you're suggesting benefits only the Mafia and not the Town at all.

Also, Andante is already almost confirmed Town here, unless they're gamethrowing, as why would scum ever claim a PR when not even at E-1.

[JacksonVirgo]

Andante as scum would absolutely have motive to fake their role as an important PR there, especially the defensive one.

This is insane. If a scum dies D1, scum almost always loses. Why would they risk this instead of using it as a last-resort when pushed to E-1.


Honest question

[JacksonVirgo]

If Rathe directly counterclaims I may change my mind but as it stands, voting Andante here is literally both stupid and anti-town.

[JacksonVirgo]

If Rathe directly counterclaims I may change my mind but as it stands, voting Andante here is literally both stupid and anti-town.

And if you disagree, explain in HARD details why.

[JacksonVirgo]

Can you respond to my fucking posts.

[JacksonVirgo]

I do not care if they flip scum. In retrospect my logic will remain something I stand by. We do not hammer until a counterclaim happens and if it doesn't, we wagon elsewhere.

A counterclaim here is MILES more beneficial than getting a PR hammered. We risk the other PR dying if a claimed PR is left alive to be NKed rather than just yeeting it without having any reason to believe that it's fake-claimed.

[JacksonVirgo]

This is insane. If a scum dies D1, scum almost always loses. Why would they risk this instead of using it as a last-resort when pushed to E-1.

y would town

Because I believe the frustration to be legitimate. The same thing happened to them multiple games "in a row" talking about the finished game that just closed and here. They got frustrated like this in the last game as well and I am reading this as genuine and the claim here matches that frustration. I remember being like this before

[JacksonVirgo]

voting Andante here is literally both stupid and anti-town.

what do u think about the claim in the first place

I believe it, I have no reason to otherwise until a counterclaim happens. If one does happen I will reconsider but otherwise this wagon is insanely stupid.

[JacksonVirgo]

Andante had NO reason to out uet if Doc. I am guaranteeing yoy this is scum, I will take full blame. I have reread some pages I am absolutely certain Andante js scum here.

This is a strawmans argument.

They were obviously frustrated at being wagoned, just like last game that I played. It's nothing that indicates them as scum fake-claiming at fucking all.

[JacksonVirgo]

You can't be this stupid, seriously

[JacksonVirgo]

If you think they're scum, fine they may be. But not asking for counterclaims is the scummiest thing I've ever heard in my life.

[JacksonVirgo]

Rathe/Rational is not a team. They wouldn't both make this play.

[JacksonVirgo]

Andante had NO reason to out uet if Doc. I am guaranteeing yoy this is scum, I will take full blame. I have reread some pages I am absolutely certain Andante js scum here.

This is a strawmans argument.

They were obviously frustrated at being wagoned, just like last game that I played. It's nothing that indicates them as scum fake-claiming at fucking all.

Yoy want to force PRs to CC? That's the reason she did it. Your answer loes in what you're enabling.

Scum would not fucking out this early when they can do so when they're in the worst possible position, being at E-1. They would not fucking do it this early and the way they did it was in frustration which aligns with what their town self has been acting like when getting wagoned early in multiple games. The frustration is valid, the way they claimed is valid, although dumb, and I am willing to bet my life that this is Town.

You're blindly wagoning this without ever paying attention to the person who actually has reasonings as to why the claiming is town!ai, or NAI at worst. You're either pushing an agenda or you're falling into confirmation bias heavily.

[JacksonVirgo]

You can't be this stupid, seriously

y would a doctor ever claim

I HAVE FUCKING EXPLAINED THIS HOLY FUCKING SHIT

[JacksonVirgo]

YES I FUCKING HAVE

[JacksonVirgo]

Rathe/Rational is not a team. They wouldn't both make this play.

so what does that mean to u n what does it tell u

I am just saying that if one of you flip scum, the other is not scum.

[JacksonVirgo]

Scum dies and then the defensive PR dies. It's better from her perspective to CC here than when forced, because it takes only one brave towny to vote her off then

Wait did they cc someone. I thought they just claimed out of frustration.

I should probably catch up on the full thread before saying shit

[JacksonVirgo]

You sag she wouldn't risk it but she absolutely would. Think about the game from her perspective. She ix experiencing extreme pressure and is volatile, panicking.

Don't call me a fucking sag. Assuming this is not a cc. What makes you think it's panic rather than fucking frustration. I have done this before as Town out of frustration on my home site.

pedit: Ccing benefits Town because we wouldn't be wasting a fucking elim on a Town PR without a proper follow-up vote. If they flip Town here we risk getting the second PR dead and we essentially lose based on fucking numbers.

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait did they cc someone. I thought they just claimed out of frustration.

They're blackmailing a Pr to CC that can rule Doc out. Use your head.

I know what you fucking think they're doing. I am not fucking dense. But you have no fucking idea whether they are or not, you're just thinking they are being you SR them, not following up with a cc is conf-bias and can destroy the fuck out of the Town.

[JacksonVirgo]

u said y andante might claim but y would a doctor claim

Oh my god. Are you serious right now

[JacksonVirgo]

Sag is a typo of say? What is a sag?

I don't know, I thought you were insulting me

[JacksonVirgo]

What makes you think it's a panic claim over a frustrated claim.

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait did they cc someone. I thought they just claimed out of frustration.

They're blackmailing a Pr to CC that can rule Doc out. Use your head.

I know what you fucking think they're doing. I am not fucking dense. But you have no fucking idea whether they are or not, you're just thinking they are being you SR them, not following up with a cc is conf-bias and can destroy the fuck out of the Town.

Nope. You have the Conf bias and have ever since daystart. You're convinced every single part of reasons to scumread Andante are nillified by the fact she has played terribly in another game she was Town in. That is the defit of Confirmation Bias. In this scenario you aren't even thinking straight. You are not thinking about how she's going to react as Doc here, why would she out? Why would she not ever once answer my questions? Why constantlt AtE, vote me after voting T3 for the same bullshit reason and then out as Doc instead of contributing anything worthwhile?

Why is she outing as Doc and not then insisting you vote me out? Because she's waiting for the CC.

I am all ready to flip reads on them if I have a fucking reason to do so. There is no counterclaim and you have not countered as to why my logic to getting a counterclaim is bad, just ignored it and thrown the same fucking logic back and forth. I am saying that the reasonings it seems like to me is backed up by meta so I have no reasons to think otherwise until I have a mechanical 1v1. I SAID SHE WOULD OUT FROM FRUSTRATION, I NEVER SAID THEY MADE A SMART OR LOGICAL DECISION WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCKING SHIT. This is why I rather mod games, this is just stupidity.

[JacksonVirgo]

Panic and frustration are coinciding but there's a plan behind the claim and you're helping it succeed.

Alright, I'll throw another ball.

Explain why a counterclaim is worse for town than otherwise. Taking into consideration that Andante could be any alignment since we don't know.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'll try to convince you with statistics.

No counterclaim -> Flips scum. We gain a great advantage, Rathe likely dies here if they are Town.
Counterclaim -> We have a definite scum flip by D2 although sacrificing a PR in the meantime.
No counterclaim ->Flips Town. We do not have a definite scum flip going into D2, we also risk the other PR dying and pushing us into a 5v2 mountainous (balanced mountaious is 11v2 which is still scum-sided, think about that).
Counterclaim -> Definite scum flip by D2. We do not lose the PR more than any other way, as the PR is outted already.

On average, if one of those events were picked at random. 3/4 of those will leave us with a greater advantage. That being if we no-cc and they flip scum and the other's are both the counterclaiming.
So couter-claiming here will remove most of the giant risks and give us the greater returns.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'll try to convince you with statistics.

No counterclaim -> Flips scum. We gain a great advantage, Rathe likely dies here if they are Town.
Counterclaim -> We have a definite scum flip by D2 although sacrificing a PR in the meantime.
No counterclaim ->Flips Town. We do not have a definite scum flip going into D2, we also risk the other PR dying and pushing us into a 5v2 mountainous (balanced mountaious is 11v2 which is still scum-sided, think about that).
Counterclaim -> Definite scum flip by D2. We do not lose the PR more than any other way, as the PR is outted already.

On average, if one of those events were picked at random. 3/4 of those will leave us with a greater advantage. That being if we no-cc and they flip scum and the other's are both the counterclaiming.
So couter-claiming here will remove most of the giant risks and give us the greater returns.

The second counterclaim one is wrong, let me reword.
We will either have a definite scum flip by D2 if scum want to be ballsy and we do not risk losing the second PR D2 making us have a greater chance of getting at least one guilty result in rather than not.

Also by "greater advantage" I mean an outcome that does not straight up put us in a worse position.

[JacksonVirgo]

Before I make any decision, I am not being delusional or conf-biased. I am speaking directly to logic from an unbiased and external point of view, counterclaiming here gives us the highest return. It does not mean counterclaim with a claim, just saying "I am a PR that makes their claim fake" is fine, otherwise eliminating without a counterclaim has the ability to absolutely destroy the Town and I am completely against that.

I also think they're Town but if I am speaking directly to logic, that is also the best play.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also going off "I think X is PR and thus this cannot be" is nothing we go off at all so if you're thinking that, stop because you're wrong more times than not.

[JacksonVirgo]

I would also like you to answer this. What makes you assume I am conf-biased rather than me being scum with them. You said earlier that we were a viable team, yet that didn't seem to come into your head when I was pushing towards the agenda you think scum!andante is pushing.

[JacksonVirgo]

Explain why a counterclaim is worse for town than otherwise.

cuz it can reveal the real pr

Look at my list.

"Oh no I am afraid of outing a PR so bad but I am willing to risk yeeting one because I think they're scum owo"

[JacksonVirgo]

tfas

@Andante so you think Mafia is going to roleblock you all game?

[JacksonVirgo]

Are you assuming there is a roleblocker here

[JacksonVirgo]

if u r actually the real doctor ur claim is anti town

No shit sherlock

[JacksonVirgo]

either way u being voted out is the best play

Wrong, and you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking this way.

[JacksonVirgo]

I think I might want to rethink this. Rathe, are you ccing doc?

Ask it once more and you are scum.

You're a fucking idiot

[JacksonVirgo]

@mod JacksonVirgo has been continually abusive to me and now called me a fucking idiot. I expect reprimanding.

Because I cannot believe you actually think the way you are and Its insane.

"Abusive" my ass, there is a difference between being flat out aggreasive because you are frustrating me and abusing you.

[JacksonVirgo]

If there's no CC O guess it's 2-goon setup and she hit the jackpot with Town's response.

If it is, we figure that out later.

[JacksonVirgo]

2-goon setup is 2/3 probability of nobody CCing Doc eben when demanded to... It's perfect fakeclaim.

That's wrong.

1/3 of it being a 2-goon setup.
1/3 of it being a valid claim in a 2-goon setup.

Making it 1/3 * 1/3 chance that it's a fake-claim if nobody ccs.
That's 0.11 chance. I don't know where the hell you pulled 2/3 from.

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait you're saying it's a 2/3 chance they will not be cc'ed.
That's still wrong, it's a 1/3 chance if it is the third column

[JacksonVirgo]

Explain how you got to that number

[JacksonVirgo]

@mod JacksonVirgo has been continually abusive to me and now called me a fucking idiot. I expect reprimanding.

Because I cannot believe you actually think the way you are and Its insane.

"Abusive" my ass, there is a difference between being flat out aggreasive because you are frustrating me and abusing you.

Jackson, I honestly feel... Rational is being impossible to play with, I literally figured me claiming would shut him up yet he only got worse.... :/

Yeah I am starting to give up on them tbf, Rathe too but to a lesser extent as Rational is more outspoken lol

[JacksonVirgo]

town does not act this way especially pr

If you feel all Town act pro-town all the time, you have a lot to learn.

[JacksonVirgo]

what that tells me is
-he n andante r partners n this was a plan that they created n he knows getting mafia will make us think he is town
-he is a role that doesnt allow for a doctor

They gave in to Town ccing, and didn't cc.

So you're saying that from your perspective Rational/Andante are both confirmed Mafia yes?

[JacksonVirgo]

So you're saying that from your perspective Rational/Andante are both confirmed Mafia yes?

no i said what i said

Wrong, you did say that as you said that either Rational is PR that can counterclaim or that Rational/Andante is both scum.
The former is proven to be false by the agreement to get Town to counterclaim, yet didn't themselves. So that leaves the latter, which makes them both confirmed scum in your head.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Rathe

Why do you think this comes from scum.

Also don't you find it weird how it feels like an echo-chamber of us both and Rational/Rathe. Where is everyone else

[JacksonVirgo]

Not that they didn't post, it's just it seems like everything is incredibly focused on us four. Or us three, Rathe is not really posting either.
I'm not sure what to make of it, it's also 3am so I am also likely reaching

[JacksonVirgo]

Says doc claim rather than Doc.

Says Doc rather than Doctor (Doc would be howbthey chatted in scumchat about the idea, not Doctor but reading a role PM and tellimg it would feel serious, she'd say Doctor)
After it tunnels antone votimg her, now outs a townread on the person she is wanting town to bandwagon

And you call be conf-biased

[JacksonVirgo]

Says doc claim rather than Doc.

Says Doc rather than Doctor (Doc would be howbthey chatted in scumchat about the idea, not Doctor but reading a role PM and tellimg it would feel serious, she'd say Doctor)
After it tunnels antone votimg her, now outs a townread on the person she is wanting town to bandwagon

And you call me conf-biased

Edited

[JacksonVirgo]

scum can decide to eliminate Rational tonight just to make the game thread less aggressive (and we probably would all shoot him if we could, lets be honest) - and we carry on the next day

Is this a slip?

[JacksonVirgo]

Regardless of them being flat out wrong and acting scummy as bat shit, I don't think scum would push this hard to eliminate a Doc who can get NKed pretty easily with no repercussions. Doctor claim is Town, or at least should not be eliminated today especially with no counterclaim.

{ T3, Ivyeo, Demainer, orctin, Clasko } being the pool we should eliminate from.
I would prefer an Orc flip personally.

[JacksonVirgo]

Whatever poor soul would shoot someone as useful to Town as me is hilarious. Hope that you vote Andante and then them (just kidding this game has no gun).

What are you saying.

[JacksonVirgo]

i think at this point even if Rathe isn't eliminated Day 1 scum will have hard time not night killing them the coming night

You are seriously obsessed with the scum NK. Why would that be

[JacksonVirgo]

Welcome

[JacksonVirgo]

Hi all!

Does anyone have an update while I read up properly?
I saw juicy claims I think!

Andante claimed Doctor.
Rational and Rathe both want to wagon them anyway and make Town not cc if there is one.
It's been a general 2v2 attack from Rational/Rathe and myself and Andante. With us trying to explain how stupid it is to not ask for ccs here.

Rational basically choosing to fall into confbias while telling everyone else it's confbias that they are not wagoning Andante. I say plenty of logic as to why ccing here is the best play, why Andante is likely town etc but they choose to actively ignore that every single time.

[JacksonVirgo]

Andante claimed Doctor.
Rational and Rathe both want to wagon them anyway and make Town not cc if there is one.
It's been a general 2v2 attack from Rational/Rathe and myself and Andante. With us trying to explain how stupid it is to not ask for ccs here.

Rational basically choosing to fall into confbias while telling everyone else it's confbias that they are not wagoning Andante. I say plenty of logic as to why ccing here is the best play, why Andante is likely town etc but they choose to actively ignore that every single time.

Unlucky for them we aren't going to lim the Doc claim.

I'll also stand strong that Qndante claims early as town PR. I am not going.to discuss further on this though.

Who's scum for you Jackson?

I'm confident on Orc, unsure on anybody else at this point since the focus has shifted to Rathe/Andante/Rational and myself heavily the past while

[JacksonVirgo]

T3
Ivyeo
Demainer
orctin
Rathe

2 scum here.

Would scum!rathe actually try to keep a vote on a PR claim? Assuming Andante is Town, as if Andante is scum Rathe is a valid partner.

[JacksonVirgo]

If there's no CC O guess it's 2-goon setup and she hit the jackpot with Town's response.

As explained earlier, Goon/Goon means doctor will be cced in every possible situation. They know this. The only possibility where the scumteam decides to fakeclaim doc is if we have a newbie/newbie scumteam that panicked early on with the constant pushing, and is trying to get out of the current situation with an early bus. Which means the most likely partner is probably also either rathe or rational. rational wouldn't make sense because he was the one who created this entire situation in the first place, necessitating the doc claim, which leaves rathe. rathe wouldn't make sense either because an se would know better than to tell their scummate to fakeclaim when it's not even close to e-1. So, on this alone, andante can't possibly be faking it, since no one has partner equity with andante if she's faking it.

That's also wrong.

There's a 1/3 chance that a doctor fake-claim succeeds in a Goon/Goon setup. I know this because I've done it before

[JacksonVirgo]

If there's no CC O guess it's 2-goon setup and she hit the jackpot with Town's response.

As explained earlier, Goon/Goon means doctor will be cced in every possible situation. They know this. The only possibility where the scumteam decides to fakeclaim doc is if we have a newbie/newbie scumteam that panicked early on with the constant pushing, and is trying to get out of the current situation with an early bus. Which means the most likely partner is probably also either rathe or rational. rational wouldn't make sense because he was the one who created this entire situation in the first place, necessitating the doc claim, which leaves rathe. rathe wouldn't make sense either because an se would know better than to tell their scummate to fakeclaim when it's not even close to e-1. So, on this alone, andante can't possibly be faking it, since no one has partner equity with andante if she's faking it.

That's also wrong.

There's a 1/3 chance that a doctor fake-claim succeeds in a Goon/Goon setup. I know this because I've done it before

That's where there is a Town Cop.

[JacksonVirgo]

Catching up now

[JacksonVirgo]

Would scum!rathe actually try to keep a vote on a PR claim? Assuming Andante is Town, as if Andante is scum Rathe is a valid partner.

Yeah I can see that happening. Rathe wasn't as vocal as Rational.
Doc flip means we lim Rational who flips town and then that's 2 days later...

A scum flip would highly suggest Rathe as Doc anyway so not claiming here isn't something I see town doing.

I also don't think Andante and Rathe ever become to scum pair here. There's no need to bus your buddy on a PR claim like that. 8v1 night 1 is nearly always a loss for scum.
Not to mention that scum then rule out a column possibility by admitting Doc is a possible role.

By that are you agreeing with me or otherwise? Your wording here is somewhat confusing.
The doctor claimant is NOT flipping today, that's final and even if they did Rational wouldn't be the push post-flip imo.

A frustrated scum!andante could 100% do this play here and Rathe either in coordination or out of opportunistic nature does this in return to either set up a possible Tracker claim (as to why they are refusing to claim) or reap in the town-cred if Andante gets flipped or Masonry claims.

[JacksonVirgo]

There would be no real reason for scum!rathe to vote the PR claim without a reason. So if they do flip red, there's a reason they voted there that is not just "I want the PR gone"

[JacksonVirgo]

T3-Rathe-Jackson - so i need to look at these 3 - right now i'm betting there is a scum in here - and might be the better play - we eliminate one of them - scum can decide to eliminate Rational tonight just to make the game thread less aggressive (and we probably would all shoot him if we could, lets be honest) - and we carry on the next day

This would suggest that if scum, so is T3.
But I could be wrong here.

@orctin

Can you touch base on this more?
Let's go over why these 3 are scum?

Right now I dont think Rathe is scum - his vote after the doctor claim was too immediate and to telling now
Jackson - He started out slow but has come on lately - he's making logical post and discussions so i have no reason to question his alignment at this time
Which to me leaves T3 as very probably Scum

Far as those questioning myself - i'm town - You dont see me trying to jump on a vote right now in trying to save myself - i'm trying to let town sort our who would be the good choice today at this point

Also - Dont think we aren't looking your way as well - the player you were replacing was on the questionable list of a few people - your doing a good job swaying those thoughts at this time - we will have to see long right

Right now i think T3 is the best vote to eliminate - Andante and Rational need to get off each other and look to better choices - and i have no idea why i have pinged Jackson's radar - but town needs to come together on a vote and one we all or at least majority agree on

Did you catch up more than when you said I was in the scum-pool? Mind explaining what posts of mine is logical etc. Also is this a null or town read as you never said.
I agree that Rational/Andante need to look elsewhere as it's only putting a stump in Town's progress.

[JacksonVirgo]

This reasoning is really weird, why would you base our elim today on who scum will kill tonight? Not town at all.

Yeah that's what I was talking about. Their "obsession" with the night kill is strange.

Orc have you played Mafia/Forum Mafia elsewhere?

[JacksonVirgo]

Reading back Rathe's immediate vote on Andante after her Doctor claim is concerning - i think at this point even if Rathe isn't eliminated Day 1 scum will have hard time not night killing them the coming night - it was too quick a reaction to not do so, which if true would make Andante scum. It's the only logic to Rathe's quick vote i can see.

I mean even a scum player should have a pause to the claim instead of the quick vote.

Lampshading to the max, you know you slipped in the previous post, and now you're covering it up by doubling down.

Slipped what - i'm just talking - if your taking something as "i slipped" then please allow us to know so the whole town knows there
Cause right now all i'm seeing is sometime pushing the vote to the side instead of looking at the real scum targets

I think the slip is how the night kill is on your mind more than I would assume would be on anyone else's. In other words, I think it's a slip as Town would not be this obsessed without external reasons about the NK. Could be mistaken of course but that's my general mindset

[JacksonVirgo]

Did you catch up more than when you said I was in the scum-pool? Mind explaining what posts of mine is logical etc. Also is this a null or town read as you never said.
I agree that Rational/Andante need to look elsewhere as it's only putting a stump in Town's progress.

I'm sorry, i said you made logical post and i didn't have a good read which way you leaned and your questioning me on it?? So if i complement you on making good conversation thats a bad thing?

First of all, I never said anything about this read of yours being bad. I literally just asked where the read lied and what posts you were referring to.

[JacksonVirgo]

Any player who doesn't think about whom scum will kill at night isn't playing the whole game - that's part of the game here is not only trying to eliminate scum - but also trying to anticipate what they will do with their own actions - or should town just stick their head in the sand and go "not it" - and it would seem the way you guys play here, it's another way to read people. since this seems to be the entire obsession here - so why only play with half a deck?

Have you played elsewhere before?

[JacksonVirgo]

"Jackson - He started out slow but has come on lately - he's making logical post and discussions so i have no reason to question his alignment at this time "

I said i dont have a read on you - you dont lie anywhere for me at this point and i'm not going to jump to one way or the other as i have no clear decision on that - 'm not going to lump you one way or another just for the sake of doing so

If you think you said you didn't have a read on me in that quote, you didn't.
And all I asked if I was a null-read or a town-read, not for reasons why you null-read me. But thanks for answering

[JacksonVirgo]

I've played for 6 years on forum games elsewhere that are more what they refer to as "role madness" i think - i have rarely played a majority VT minumal game but wanted to try new things. I also run my own Discord Mafia game with 20-30 player average games which is also more "everyone has roles" and i play on a "Werewolf" discord server which is more based on Town of Salem - Coven addition - so yea - playing here is totally new to me and the whole game mechanics and how yall play i'm having to learn on the fly

UNVOTE:
I no longer wish to eliminate this.

I was an owner of a Discord Mafia server but I am not anymore, still a part of it though. I'll have to ask you about that post-game

[JacksonVirgo]

General no-elim pool contains
{ Andante, Orc, Rational, Rathe }

That leaves
{ T3, Ivy, Demain, Clasko }

[JacksonVirgo]

Also just for post-game cred and meaning nothing for the game aorn. If Andante and Rathe are both mafia, kneel before my epic tinfoils.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Clasko

Honestly I need to make more of an effort to read people that are in the lower section of my conscious.

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait no VFP replaced them and I like that slot. I'll give them a re-read

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: clasko

I think my case was valid....

What case was that again?

[JacksonVirgo]

Town Pool - { Andante, Orc, Rational, Rathe }
Scum Pool - { T3, Ivy, Demainer, VFP }

Andante what's your thoughts on the other three in the scum-pool?

[JacksonVirgo]

Also the town-group of Rathe and Rational aren't set because I think they've been acting Townie. It's plain mechanical reasonings but when more flips happen they will likely fall from that

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler:

Hello all!

Reading, reading...

^ VERY cautious

I also read that post to be strange

T3 supporting me is easily to soften me up and/or to frame me if T3 flips scum later.

T3 may be town, on balance, because of how actively he defended Ivy agaibst Demainer wheb he noticed she was 2/5 and Demainer's response to T3 was worth scum reading somewhat.

Do you have a preference between labelling him town/mafia here? You seem conflicted.

Also what are everyone's thoughts on Demainer. His meta seems very different to 2060.

Nothing is pinging me to a change in meta for him. He is playing and posting as I would expect him to rn based on 2060.

Cause it's a good play for a scummie to push on anther who made a high profile post. at the very least it attracts attention where scum want it - away from them.

Eh, I'm getting "helpful for the sake of appearing helpful" vibes from this:

VOTE: orctin

^ "You seem conflicted." What kind of line is this?? I could follow what Rational was saying pretty easily, it's not rocket science to figure out what T3 is doing right now.
Then there's a comment on meta, is it stemming from having TMI? who knows, idk the person
"helpful for the sake of appearing helpful" vibes LMAOOO fam. the game JUST started.. AND orc was responding to me? so you're taking it out of context... something scum loves to do.

Just saying that the point of them not following Rational is NAI, they could have just not understood it. Just because you do doesn't mean everyone does etc
2. From the wording it seems like it's just a meta-read from an earlier game so doesn't feel like TMI
3. I have no real comments on this one. Your case and the section itself seem like it's nothing I can really cover.

VOTE: Clasko
It's impossible to be Pr twice in a row
/s

Also, I skipped over this, how dare you >:c
c;

^ "I skipped the first post of the game, oh no!" you sure you weren't distracted with a private thread? mmmm

I think the end bit of this is a tad confbias. But I do think that that is a weird post in retrospect.

Ivy is lean town for me if Demainer is scum. Other than that, I'm not sure about Ivy.

Town:RM
Lean town: Rathe, Ivy
Null: Clasko
Lean scum: orctin, Andante
Scum: Dem

Some questions for you, T3:

1. Why do you townread Ivy? You say "if Demainer is scum" but I don't see the correlation.
2. Where does JacksonVirgo place?

^ Ok, so on these questions you "seem to have" You ask about a lean town rather than the solid town he has marked? you ask about the solid SR, you feel no need to ask about Rational being solid town so soon? And we only care about Ivy in the lean towns? interesting. These feel like questions you don't care about the answers to, meaning you post, and leave, and think you're looking towny. These questions also don't even help progress the game, but this is the only "significant" thing you've done.

If they are masons then at this point they might as well say so cause by what being said scum already know - if not then it's a sidetrack arguement to sow doubt among town

The lesser of two evils is ensuring Mafia aren't certain where the PR's are.

^ You know they aren't both masons, one is your partner, and it feels like you said this to seem towny like, by saying this, it's your argument for your partner not having to claim they're not a mason.





This game is way too easy

VOTE: Clasko

[JacksonVirgo]

Town Pool - { Andante, Orc, Rational, Rathe }
Scum Pool - { T3, Ivy, Demainer, VFP }

Andante what's your thoughts on the other three in the scum-pool?

Idk. I've been too distracted by rational/rathe all game. I can't focus when I'm being tunneled, and your whole scum pool has been coasting through the rational "arguments" which I literally don't blame them. It wasn't the friendliest environment to talk... this is literally a newbie game, yet the heat has been turned way up "VOTE THE DOC OUT OR YOU'RE WRONG" so if I were in those 4, I would also be coasting....

I feel ya lol. I'm the same, I need to widen my reads. But that would make Rathe/Rational needing to can their words and make a compromise with the Town in order to actually progress. I think that Town being unable to post in that a lot less likely than at least one scum coasting to see what happens. If Rational/You are both Town there is almost definitely a scum in the ones that were actively lurking.

[JacksonVirgo]

Rathe is just kinda riding Rational's wave, so Rathe could be scum tunneling.

Rathe is the first to vote you/keep vote on you after your claim. So I find it hard to conceptualize why scum!them would do that

[JacksonVirgo]

Don't expect me to pander to yours then.

Logic isn't ego. whatever the hell you're doing however, is

[JacksonVirgo]

Or we could hypoclaim so that we have more clears with a tracker even if they die.

[JacksonVirgo]

So rathr is going to try and pretend that yesterday was a rxn test

[JacksonVirgo]

Objectively speaking, Tracker outting today without a guilty is doing Town a dirty.

If we all claim a clear on someone, with VTs claiming someone that they would have checked as Tracker. Tracker actually telling their actual result. Once the Tracker dies, all the people that are cleared will become fully cleared, this also makes Town likely get much more results without sacrificing the Tracker in return.

If a VT claims a clear on a Mafia, it will of course label them as not tracker but it is MILES better than just yeeting the tracker immediately.

[JacksonVirgo]

6v1 as we speak
2 of which would be confirmed if Tracker outs today.
That would essentially force the scum to never clear anybody as ​they have set up two kills.

Objectively it is a 66.6% chance that scum kill someone that is not Tracker nor the clear. Which means that by tomorrow we will likely have 3 people clear of being scum instead of two. This is also doubled down by the Tracker clear likely being someone in the lower-tier of the Town which is unlikely to be killed at night anyway. And if that happens, Tracker could get yet another clear and/or a guilty.

Compare that to forcing their death today. Making us be forced to solve in 4. It's objectively the better idea to hypoclaim here

[JacksonVirgo]

I will start this.

I cleared Orc, their SR on Rathe seemed somewhat forced to me yestergameday.

[JacksonVirgo]

Now someone else hypoclaim

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't get it.
Do I pick someone who looks scum or someone I think is town?

Say you cleared someone you would have checked. If you are the tracker, say your actual result

[JacksonVirgo]

Yea to be honest i dont get it either - Your basically asking everyone to fake claim tracking someone to "clear them" - Then what - asking the tracker to what - verify someone's fake claim?? And you basically are asking every townie to Lie, so when the tracker does call someone out - well of course they are lying.

Sorry but in my history of Mafia - Town doesn't lie - it's a golden rule

Its called masking out the Trackers results so when they die we will have their results without needing them to claim and die prior to when they need to

[JacksonVirgo]

So rathr is going to try and pretend that yesterday was a rxn test

it was a reaction test i dont have to pretend

can i just say if that's true has to be strangest thing i seen - to immediately vote to elim the Doctor after he claims as a test of what - see who would vote with you - i had others i'm higher on to suspect but this kind of thing adds a point your side of the scum scale for me, about like trying to get everyone to fake claim a tracker result to just add enough confusion for scum to blend in well. Some odd logic around this parts

I could not have said that about Rathe better. Also you are confusing the intent with hypoclaiming

[JacksonVirgo]

So essentially having the Tracker claim now removes any chances of getting more clears etc. If we have everyone fake a result, not fakeclaim Tracker, if the Tracker dies at night we will know their clears whrn otherwise we will have to speculate it or get them to claim todat and lose the power of the Tracker stupidly

[JacksonVirgo]

Nice.

[JacksonVirgo]

Andante, I admit I was completely incorrect about you but I cannot comprehend why you read anyone voting you as scum... This style of play and reading will come to hurt you in non-newbie games in my humble opinion. In the future, when someone pressures you how I did, don't let that be the focus of your game. Feel free to say I'm annoying you but stay focused as if I was just another player.

Dude, you voted a fucking PR and expect to be read as genius? Laughable

[JacksonVirgo]

Mafia PT loads a notes PT

[JacksonVirgo]

I didn't expect my read as genius, I expected to read others' reactions including the Doc's. In every single way Andante acted as a mafia claiming Doc would, every single read she had is what scum would force to distract away from them. She never answered any ofy questions or gave reasoning behind her reads beyond someone voting her or being lurky.

No they didn't, and I explained why many times yet you kept to your ego-read.

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler:

I didn't expect my read as genius, I expected to read others' reactions including the Doc's. In every single way Andante acted as a mafia claiming Doc would, every single read she had is what scum would force to distract away from them. She never answered any ofy questions or gave reasoning behind her reads beyond someone voting her or being lurky.

No they didn't, and I explained why many times yet you kept to your ego-read.[/quote

]
Mhmm, I accept you were superior at reading Andante than I was.

I was the second voter on both bandwagons that got scum eliminated, so you may think I'm this or that but in the end I got the job done.

I also admit I'd play hardball as scum, so I don't blame anyone who scumread me though I wouldn't bus my role cop just like that lol.

It's not that I was superior at all. It's just you were tunneled so hard you didn't see how the way they acted cleared them as well as even if I was wrong, you should never wagon there without a cc.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also I already said you and Rathe were extremely likely Town. I was going to end up yeeting demain regardless.

Chaotic, but good game y'all. Apologies for getting heated

[JacksonVirgo]

Good try though scum, I think Andante and Rational being obvious town really didn't help your chances, just unfortunate here.

Andante being obvtown was a certain with their claim lol
Rathe/Rational both being obvious town was unfortunate though yeah.

[JacksonVirgo]

Good game. I don't think I player terribly for my first scumgame.

No you did good for a first scum game, mine was worse aha