Newbie 2067 - Pizza! - End!

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Zyla

She is clearly Mason hunting

[Lukewarm]

Questions for all:

Do you prefer playing as mafia or town?

Do you like pineapple on pizza?


For me, I'd say Town, and definitely, as my favorite kind is pineapple and black olives (with a slightly burnt thick crust so its got the nice mix of fluffy and crispy)

I have yet to play a scum game, so I would say I am more confident in my town play, but also would like to actually play scum at some point.

Pineapple on pizza is fine. Not my favorite, but not the worst either. (olives on pizza are the really gross options imo )

[Lukewarm]

Here's a random question to everyone.

How confident or nervous are you about winning this game?

I would say decently confident. I am coming into this game off of a pretty good game. Town win on Day 2

[Lukewarm]

are we doing rqs instead of rvs?

i feel confident town will win, how's that?

That-

Is an

interesting

way to phrase it

[Lukewarm]

StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?

Clearly they got a N0 cop guilty

[Lukewarm]

Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.

StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?

An RVS no?

Well there goes that theory lol

[Lukewarm]

i'm willing to sheep anyone who provides me with pizza

I am not above bribery. PM me the address

[Lukewarm]

Here's a random question to everyone.

How confident or nervous are you about winning this game?

Honestly, it's hard to be confident at this stage, but Luke is a pretty good player, so if he's on the Town side I'm pretty optimistic

Here's a random question to everyone.

How confident or nervous are you about winning this game?

I would say decently confident. I am coming into this game off of a pretty good game. Town win on Day 2

On the other hand, it would be hilarious if he were the scum this game

Oh Zyla, must we always be on opposing sides?

[Lukewarm]

On the other hand, Zyla has not pulled out her random number generator for her RVS vote yet, maybe she is town this time lol

[Lukewarm]

At this point I've never tried Forum Mafia before, so I'm not too confident myself about this game.

Have you played IRL? Or have you read games on site?

[Lukewarm]

Me, Zyla, and Pavowski all just finished a game.

I have also played with STD, I think twice before.

[Lukewarm]

Ahh Ok so its a meta read? Makes a little more sense, although I still SR luke a bit(less than before AND almost leaning null rn), because thier opening didnt sound that genuine from a townie perspective

For reference, in our last game zyla was scum, and I caught her because she kept mentioning masons, and I realized she was mason hunting.

[Lukewarm]

Reads are really hard to come by this early in a game usually, especially since half the players have not even checked in.

I am getting town pings from HockeyFan so far, his slight shift from 33 to 39 seems like someone genuinely trying to sort me / zyla

Zyla also seems a bit more relaxed this game, maybe? I think time will help me sort her since I have a scum game to compare her to.

[Lukewarm]

it usually takes me a few pages for reads to develop but i agree with lukewarm that your progression feels natural wrt lukewarm and zula

i think i like haschel and lukewarm so far for town but again it's pretty early

I don't usually have reads this early, into 3 town reads is an interesting juxtaposition.

Was is giving you a town read on haschel and me?

[Lukewarm]

I'd prefer to do Town reads later, and focus on what we think about possible scum reads/leans right now.

This is the exact opposite of how I approach games lol

I find it easier to find confident town reads early, then I can sort the rest of the players.

[Lukewarm]

I'd prefer to do Town reads later, and focus on what we think about possible scum reads/leans right now.

The more I think about this, the less I like it actually

VOTE: StrangeMatter

[Lukewarm]

@HockeyFan, what is your experience with Mafia?

[Lukewarm]

HockeyFan, I am trying to follow your read progression on STD. Can you explain it more. You gave him a really early "confident town read," then backed it off of it with

Also, speaking about SVD:I did call him town earlier but after seeing post#52 and post#56 idk about that anymore, He was trying to soft defend his possible scum partner so SVD is back to null leaning scum. I also really liked this questioning by Zyla and I feel like scum dont try to push on someone who was already TR'D by 1-2 people.

Who is he protecting there? Strangematter? Do you even scum read Strangematter? I thought I was your strongest scum read, at least you are voting me, so then why would you be of particularly suspicious of his interaction with Strangematter and haschel?

Can you walk me through your thinking?

[Lukewarm]

The more you are explaining,

I think that this is just a matter of difference how we would describe reads. What I usually see here on the site is, more of a progression something like leaning town -> weak town read -> Town read -> Hard town read.

So when you came out with a "confident town read" I understood it to be a stronger read then you meant for it to be. And then got whip lash seeing a strong TR change all the way to maybe scum over posts 52 and 56

[Lukewarm]

At the moment, I think that I am leaning town on HockeyFan and Zyla. Zyla has both been more relaxed and more aggressive then she was last game.

No other real reads yet, but I am off to bed

[Lukewarm]

This lobby has an interesting vibe. I am used to the first like 5+ pages of a game being mostly just RVS votes and kinda chatting and getting a feel for people, but there are several people pushing for everyone to have scum reads already.

Maybe this is coming from different experiences off site, with a faster pace / shorter game days? Not sure.

[Lukewarm]

What is wrong with partnery reads? Imo you and Luke were paired because of his post #24

I guess this stance confuses me? The first several pages are about chatting, so I was taking part in the conversation at the time. I can and will interject in plenty of conversations.

I saw Strange make a rvs vote, then someone asked them why they voted that person. But it was the rvs phase of the game, no one has real reasons on literally the 11th post of the thread.

I am just not unsure why you would read 24, and think oh, that is a scum defending his partner.

Do you really think that I saw my partner make an RVS vote, then someone ask why they voted that person, and in that moment I thought my partner needed defending there?

[Lukewarm]

This is fun... D1 is wild

D1 is always wild imo.

[Lukewarm]

On the topic of HockeyFan, this is actually really interesting to me.

As far as I can tell, it seems like all of your scum leans have been partner reads so far. Is that coincidence or is it just your style to look more specifically for pairs then any individual player?

I tend to go for partnery reads alot more since mafia partners tend to have associative tells

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that most partners are actually going to be trying to distance from one another, no step in to defend the other one on page 1 of the thread lol

[Lukewarm]

On the topic of HockeyFan, this is actually really interesting to me.

As far as I can tell, it seems like all of your scum leans have been partner reads so far. Is that coincidence or is it just your style to look more specifically for pairs then any individual player?

I tend to go for partnery reads alot more since mafia partners tend to have associative tells

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that most partners are actually going to be trying to distance from one another, no step in to defend the other one on page 1 of the thread lol

I feel like partners more often list eachother as a weak scum lean. So they don't look like partners, but they generally have 2~3 people listed as scummier so that they can have the scum lean on them without ever pushing on them.

[Lukewarm]

^ Another intresting thing that makes the Strange Matter/Lukewarm pair plausible is that they have the same reads...?

Do we?

I think we both have zyla leaning town. But when I said I had you leaning town, they disagreed and said they were not so sure.

And then there is the fact that I voted for Strange because of them saying we should not focus on town reads. Which I do not like. Town reads are just as good as scum reads. In the very last game I played, on Day 2 I managed to get strong town reads on 3 other players, and that is enough to win the game, because we had enough eliminations that worst case scenario, we could eliminate everyone outside the town block before we lost. Town Blocks are powerful for town, and the scum can and should do everything they can to keep them from forming - hense my vote on Strange there.

So I think the me and Strange agreed on exactly Zyla lol

[Lukewarm]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

[Lukewarm]

Granted I guess that's the way the game gets played here but I'm used to the NK being the first bit of info the village gets.

For now I'm just checking vibes and getting a feel for people. There is a lot of time before we have to make any decisions. But since apparently the real game has started and jokey playtime is over,

I would say that your expectation is closer to the normal on this site.

I generally vibe for like the first 24 irl hours, but this game got serious more quickly then normal

[Lukewarm]

snip

I admit the whole "you guys are partners" read was based on very few things, post#24 just seemed odd to me. I SR u 2 indiually and while going through liogs I saw this and I was like "Hey, possible partners?". That partner association is gone from my head BUT you 2 still are scummy and CAN be partners but not because of 24

As for 147, again maybe its different expereinces but most poeple I've played with dont want to see their mafia partner condemmed d1(including me)

Inwardly, that's true, but a good scum player isn't going to show it. If they think that it's guaranteed that their partner is going to be eliminated they'll vote for them, if they don't they'll try and shift suspicion onto someone else.

Neither of them have shifted suspicions onto others yet tho? so idk just seems odd they have the same reads and likewise don't have much SR'S. Probably an agreesive+passive mafia team

Are you reading my posts? You are so focused on finding partners protecting eachother, that you missed that I am currently pushing Strange

I voted for Strange because of them saying we should not focus on town reads. Which I do not like. Town reads are just as good as scum reads. In the very last game I played, on Day 2 I managed to get strong town reads on 3 other players, and that is enough to win the game, because we had enough eliminations that worst case scenario, we could eliminate everyone outside the town block before we lost. Town Blocks are powerful for town, and the scum can and should do everything they can to keep them from forming - hence my vote on Strange there.

[Lukewarm]

I am reading your posts. Just because you push someone early d1 does not mean you are not paired with them.

I never said that me pushing them would stop me from being able to be their partner...

I am saying that when you said

Neither of them have shifted suspicions onto others yet tho?

I sure did read like you were completely ignoring my push on Strange.

[Lukewarm]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Claiming early is bad for us...

[Lukewarm]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Claiming early is bad for us...

saids who? we know theirs only two prs so if scum slip and clime something then the real prs will know and bam caught the scum.

I think says you?

i think as town we should draw the nk it protects the pr so they can help solve stuff for us.

If a PR claims a PR role, then the scum team can kill them. If a VT claims VT, then the scum team can avoid killing them, and be more likely to kill a PR

[Lukewarm]

the real prs wouldnt be outed becuse the real ones wil be the ones watching for fakes. you bring people to l1 and tell them to clime before you hammer if you just hammer you learn nothing. the real one would normaly soft if put to l1 to let the players know its a bad idea to vote them.

I agree that anyone should be given a chance to claim before they are hammered... but no one should be claiming any earlier then when we are approaching a concensus that someone should be the elim for the day.

I do not think that we should be approaching that consensus with over 9 days left in Day 1

[Lukewarm]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Claiming early is bad for us...

saids who? we know theirs only two prs so if scum slip and clime something then the real prs will know and bam caught the scum.

And what if the real PRs are outted, then what?

the real prs wouldnt be outed becuse the real ones wil be the ones watching for fakes. you bring people to l1 and tell them to clime before you hammer if you just hammer you learn nothing. the real one would normaly soft if put to l1 to let the players know its a bad idea to vote them.

Do you think that it is a good idea for us to be putting people at e-1 and forcing them to claim already?

[Lukewarm]

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

Why are you arguing that that anyone should be claiming less then 24 hours into Day 1?

What is the benefit?

[Lukewarm]

Also this discussion about "claiming PRS or VT" and "forcing people to claim PR" is not beneifical to town. I do agree it in about some esne that people who are at E-1 should claim but this discussion shouldnt exist. Minor town points to Strange for 177

Absolutely, no one should claim rn.

But I am still interested in finding out why cyrus appears to be arguing for it

[Lukewarm]

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

Why are you arguing that that anyone should be claiming less then 24 hours into Day 1?

What is the benefit?

your learn the truth soon trust me one day your think the same . right now i could just be messing with your head to see what all i can get out of you so far . luckwarms reaction makes me think they are town so i wont vote them.

So this was a reaction test?

[Lukewarm]

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

I do not even begin to comprehend this logic. Basically you're saying everybody will/should claim VT?

And this is an argument for forcing claims?

your right 1 town point for you.

VOTE: cyrus

[Lukewarm]

He didnt? I was getting the assumption by him pushing me by pressuring me about the fact that I SR him and Strange. and fwiw, A. I said a bit of and thats not even the main content of my post

So far I have TR on you early, and then been engaging with you logic. I think that your logic has been.. not great, but I am not really sure if that is from you being scum or just because this is your first game on site. I have mainly been pushing back on it, because I was hoping you would see that the logic was faulty, and look over the game with fresh eyes. But I think that the more I have pushed on it, the more you have tunneled on it which... also not great

My town lean on you is weaker at this point then it was early, but your early stuff really did ping me as town

[Lukewarm]

Okay if that is the case, then I rescind some of my SR on u but i think you still may be possible scum because your only read is that I am scum

I think that you have higher expectations for read quantity then most people have at this point.

We are still less then 24 hours into Day 1, which is 10 days long. I know that my reads are still forming, and we have plenty of time, so I don't see the point of rushing them.

[Lukewarm]

Maybe cyrus's posting style is a bit, but it is a bit that makes it way harder to sort him.

I did a quick look at his other games, and he did not post this way in them.

[Lukewarm]

Maybe cyrus's posting style is a bit, but it is a bit that makes it way harder to sort him.

I did a quick look at his other games, and he did not post this way in them.

i and that is why i change everygame not two games are the same. im like a snowflake

Do you normally change in ways that make you harder to sort in your current game?

[Lukewarm]

Maybe cyrus's posting style is a bit, but it is a bit that makes it way harder to sort him.

I did a quick look at his other games, and he did not post this way in them.

i and that is why i change everygame not two games are the same. im like a snowflake

Do you normally change in ways that make you harder to sort in your current game?

cant answer that.

Well there is a distinct difference between changing your play style to be harder to meta read, and changing your play style to make it harder to read you in game.

But I will say that your last few posts seem to lean less into you bit, even if I don't know if I agree with the takes.

Heres to hoping you will be easier to read with time

[Lukewarm]

Insomnia has resulted in me giving this game a 4 am once over, so that's fun

Doing isos until sleep calls to me

HockeyFan

- I am still leaning town here I think.

33->39->44 just seems like a really genuine progression, coming from someone actually trying to sort mine and zyla's alignment, as opposed to scum trying to shade us. Also, just in general they seem really open to putting their reads out into the thread, and also regularly trying to draw content out from other players. They are also the top person activity wise, when I would expect a newbie scum player to be a bit more hesitant to be in the thread.

I don't really like some of their logic, like I think they are weighing people's alignments using strange criteria. But I am still thinking town here. I also think I might have been a little when I said they were tunneling in post 210. Reading back through the iso, I see them adjusting more then I realized going through the first time.

Spoiler:

I do see some irony reading post 223 after scum reading both me and STD for supposedly defending other player lol

cyrus

leaning scum

His approach to this game, just... seems anti-town. The only thing that is keeping me at a scum lean instead of a scum read is trying to find the scum motivation for the way he is posting, because it certainly drew a lot of attention to himself. Like it almost seems anti-town and anti-scum??

Very much did not like his back and forth over claiming.

Another thing that stood out to me while doing the iso was this

day 1 read may change but as of now hockey and pev are my top scum reads.

I'm on phone right now but Luke and hockey seems town to me so I'm down to 6 to short

@Cyrus, so is hockey one of your top scum reads, or is he one of your 2 top town reads? That is a big swing for him to have in like 1 page of the thread. Why were you scum reading him as of post 227? What changed his read so hard by 262?

StrangeMatter

scum lean
I still really do not like 69. I think my biggest issue with it was that they were not just saying the way that they handle the thread, they were actively telling other people not to be giving out town reads. Like, their 69 looks like it in response to STD's 67, where he gave out 2 town reads.

Pushing people to stop working on town reads, but instead focus on scum reads on page 3 of the thread, when several people had not even checked in yet. I just... don't like it.

The next section of their iso seems to be focused on defending themselves from Hockey's read on them, which I think they would do as either alignments, so NAI.

I reached the end of their iso, and realized I have no idea who Strange is even scum reading. Their only vote so far was their RVS vote. So I just scrolled back through, and I cannot find a single place where they have said they were scum reading anyone, or said that anything anyone said was scummy.

Which, I think makes post 24 look even worse looking back on it? Like, they told people to stop handing out town reads and focus on scum reads, but then never did that themselves. So it seems even more likely imo, that they were really just worried that if people were giving out town reads early that we would end up with a town block.
VOTE: StrangeMatter

Okay. It is now like 5:30 am, am tired now. Think I will be trying to sleep again. Will iso more people tomorrow.

[Lukewarm]

Which, I think makes post 24 look even worse looking back on it?

ebwop: this should be post 69

[Lukewarm]

What do you think Mafia will do in this current situation.

I dont like this question much tbh. I think hes just baiting answers from certain town members SO him(less likely) or his maf partner can start not doing these things

The goal, was to get people’s experience as Mafia to get an understanding what Mafia would do in situations that happened like the mess with Cyrus. I worded it really horribly by not adding specifics, but it was to gauge who was and wasn’t doing that action.

If cyrus is scum, then I have no idea what the scum team would do right now.

If cyrus in town, then the scum team would probably try to push him out, thinking he would be an easy Day 1 miselim at this point - which I realize now a great look for me, seeing as how I voted cyrus

[Lukewarm]

this game has new pages

cyrus isn't the play today

i still like hockey for town, i like the way he is engaging the game, it just feels like it's coming from town. same with zyla. luke's push on strangematter seems legit.

i'm less convinced about haschel atm. i want to hear more from azeru. i don't quite like 268 i get that it's early and not based on much but it does seem a little forced. strangematter is null for me.

i think that's where i'm at

Save the Dragons has only said positive things about me, starting with an early TR in post 51, might be a pocket attempt?

[Lukewarm]

this game has new pages

cyrus isn't the play today

i still like hockey for town, i like the way he is engaging the game, it just feels like it's coming from town. same with zyla. luke's push on strangematter seems legit.

i'm less convinced about haschel atm. i want to hear more from azeru. i don't quite like 268 i get that it's early and not based on much but it does seem a little forced. strangematter is null for me.

i think that's where i'm at

Save the Dragons has only said positive things about me, starting with an early TR in post 51, might be a pocket attempt?

If it is its a weak one, but also, I am paranoid of early town reads on me, like before I think I have done anything particularly townie, and as of post 51, I was not sure why I would be getting town reads already. Which is why I asked him about it in post 65. I got side tracked a bit after that with the things Hockeyfan and StrangeMatter said, so I did not get a chance to follow up on it

[Lukewarm]

I will not be voting Cyrus today, for reasons.

Spoiler:

but why.... you had 1 vote on you

[Lukewarm]

Zyla null
Azeru null

There you go, pick me apart!

Do you think that zyla feels the same or different from last game?

[Lukewarm]

Zyla - inclined to read as town but I need to try to separate out the meta.

Oh, kept reading up, and I see that you are trying to read her without meta.

[Lukewarm]

In regards to cyrus, I am not sure if cyrus is town, but I am willing to let them live through Day 1

[Lukewarm]

I am going to dive back into isos, I think. See you on the other side

[Lukewarm]

Zyla

Town Read

32/42 clears up a misunderstanding, when leaving the misunderstanding out there would make a townie (me) look worse, and did not really impact reads on her, so anti-scum equity

70 aggressive on pushing a scum read, when last game she was not very aggressive at all Day 1 (she was scum that game)

In general, see her prodding people, HockeyFan, Strangematter (101), STD(284, 306), cyrus (236, 251). It just feels like she is genuinely trying to sort people.

I think I would peg her as a town lean based solely on this game, but moving it up to a town read including the meta

STD

Null?

Still a little worried about the early TR on me.

I do like his progression on Haschel in 51->52 -> 56 though. Was leaning town, saw haschel drop a vote without saying anything, called it out, but then went back and looked to find why haschel would have done it, and realized that haschel had asked Strange a question, and not gotten an answer. I think that scum would be less likely to have followed through and double checked why haschel did it. Like you just call empty voting scummy, and move on.

But in the same post, I don't like the "give a newbie a little slack" line. The newbie in question had 1 vote on them, is that really too aggressive? lol


Stopping to eat for now

[Lukewarm]

I am probably going to be absent from the thread for the next 24ish hours. Having an allergic reaction to my cat's new flea medicine, completely with severe migraine and nausea.

Will not be reading any threads for the near future.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Oh no, feel better soon, allergic reactions are not fun.

Get better soon Luke!

I am probably going to be absent from the thread for the next 24ish hours. Having an allergic reaction to my cat's new flea medicine, completely with severe migraine and nausea.

Will not be reading any threads for the near future.

Migraines are no joke dude. Take 'er easy.

Thanks

Was not fun, but am much better today

[Lukewarm]

christ on a stick

what dont tell me you can read code.

[Lukewarm]

inch fast that hat earth right east. in soon after dont only count, shoot ant vest every . match empty.

good luck

sigh, you are actually so hard to read because half of the time, idk what you're saying lol

its not ment for everyone to read its a code

The more cyrus says stuff like this, and mentions his code unprovoked, the less I believe it.

Like, why bring up the code in the first place if it is real?

Why right this new message, but then be okay with hockeyfan not being able to read it, because if both messages are true, then for all he knows hockeyfan is the exact person he needs to read it?

It is all seeming manipulative / performative at this point

[Lukewarm]

@ffery

Spoiler: Joke for mod

I am almost inclined to be leaning towards the idea of Luke being scum with the concept of "too clean to not be dirty".

I am having war flash backs to Newbie 2060

[Lukewarm]

Final 3 for completeness

Azeru

lean scum

Their iso feels very empty. Not just post count, but even in the posts they have, it is mostly just asking questions without putting any of their own reads/takes out there. Like they feel like they are being overly careful putting their own opinions into the thread (like every post before 237 has none of their own opinions)

Then 237, is their fist vote/push, and it is on Cyrus, which is a very non-controversial take.

333 and 351 are their first posts that feel like they are putting anything of their own out there... and not a fan of those either. Their apparent strongest town read is the person with the least posts in the thread, and even requires them to dismiss the things they don't like from the iso. Then there is shade on me and my strongest TR

Haschel

Null

There is not a lot to look at here. I guess, I don't think that he could be partners with either Strange or HockeyFan, but I don't have a real independent grasp on this slot by itself

Pav

Null

Again, there is less to look at here then most slots
I kinda like 149, and his vote on Cyrus was early enough that it seems less like it is joining in after it became a non-controversial bandwagon (166 for Pav, compared to 237 for Azeru)

Zyla was mafia in our last game so law of averages says she's town this time. Since RNG can always be trusted, this feels ironclad to me.

But then, this is a really weird way to form your reads. Like, I also think that Zyla is town, but not because of this. RNG can easily spit out less then likely scenarios, like I have played a few games with a guy named Unwnd, and he has been scum in all 3 of them. We even joked about it after our last game.

[Lukewarm]

the random shade on everything i post and the white knighting of hockey makes me see Luke and hockey as two scum leans.

Random shade??

Dude, you are literally the shadiest player in the game, and are only living through the day because of your strange decoding gambit.

[Lukewarm]

Pav Null

Another thing here for Pav, I don't think that he is very likely be partners with Strange

[Lukewarm]

So now that I am done with my isos, I think I am at

Strange>Azeru>>Pav=STD=Herchel>Hockey>Zyla

And Cyrus is frustratingly off the table for the day

[Lukewarm]

Another thing that stood out to me while doing the iso was this

day 1 read may change but as of now hockey and pev are my top scum reads.

I'm on phone right now but Luke and hockey seems town to me so I'm down to 6 to short

@Cyrus, so is hockey one of your top scum reads, or is he one of your 2 top town reads? That is a big swing for him to have in like 1 page of the thread. Why were you scum reading him as of post 227? What changed his read so hard by 262?

Cyrus you never answered this, and now apparently me and hockey have swapped from your strongest trs to your strongest scum reads, can you talk about Hockey moving from 1 of your strongest scum read in 227 -> 1 of you strongest town reads in 262 -> 1 of your stongest scum reads in 355

[Lukewarm]

Pav Null

Another thing here for Pav, I don't think that he is very likely be partners with Strange

tell me the two you think the most if your right we can go for one and have the pr check the other. if your wrong your be in hot water .

so how sure are you on strange?
\
and if you had a pr role who would you check.

I have to be right with my first guess at scum, or I am in hot water? That seems a little bs.

Not super sure on Strange, but they are my strongest scum lean at the moment, but it is also Day 1, you can only be so sure.

Right now I am leaning strange and/or Azeru for scum, but currently liking my vote on Strange more because I think they would give us more associative information atm.

[Lukewarm]

So now that I am done with my isos, I think I am at

Strange>Azeru>>Pav=STD=Herchel>Hockey>Zyla

And Cyrus is frustratingly off the table for the day

what can you not put leans or nulls . i dont read>> = to well

Are

you

really going to call me out for making posts that are hard to read

If you want to know who is lean or null, you are welcome to scroll back up to my earlier posts

[Lukewarm]

hot water 9 players . 8 after day 1 7 after day 2 starts if we get it wrong 5 . you see how one wrong read can toss the game

Yes, I understand the concept that it is better to correctly hit scum day 1 then it is to miselim a townie day 1... thanks for your deep insight

[Lukewarm]

luke you seem to be going after people on hockeys wagon why is this?

what? This isn't even remotely true

Hockey's wagon rn is "My strongest Town Read" "Someone who I don't think anyone should vote today" and "The person I am currently voting"

[Lukewarm]

Final 3 for completeness

Azeru

lean scum

Their iso feels very empty. Not just post count, but even in the posts they have, it is mostly just asking questions without putting any of their own reads/takes out there. Like they feel like they are being overly careful putting their own opinions into the thread (like every post before 237 has none of their own opinions)

Then 237, is their fist vote/push, and it is on Cyrus, which is a very non-controversial take.

333 and 351 are their first posts that feel like they are putting anything of their own out there... and not a fan of those either. Their apparent strongest town read is the person with the least posts in the thread, and even requires them to dismiss the things they don't like from the iso. Then there is shade on me and my strongest TR

You have every right to dismiss this statement as I have no proof to back it up really, but I'm generally a slow player that ramps up over the game. Early on I try to ask questions and gauge general feelings on people, but I don't like sharing my reads until I feel like they're solid enough to share. I don't like making insubstantial posts if I can help it.

That said, I can understand being put off by my vote on Cyrus. You said it was a non-controversial take at the time which I will agree with. But then you're also faulting me for my takes that you do seem to think are more controversial. Do you take issue with my reasoning or is it just that you don't agree with the reads?

Overall, I am getting the feeling that you are being overly cautious. Even with the takes you have had recently. Haschel is my town read, but there were these things that pinged me. Here is some shade for Luke, but I am not calling him scum, he is still null. Here is some shade for Zyla, but not calling her scum either, instead I'm gonna say I don't have a great read on her yet.

The only thing I have seen you put out there without some kind of qualifier, seems to be the cyrus push

[Lukewarm]

....

If cyrus's code is real, then I think he would see the benefit of people not believing it right now

[Lukewarm]

either luke and hockey are scum together and trying to put the mislynch on me

I have repeatedly said that no one should vote for you tho. What are you talking about?

[Lukewarm]

Also, where have I defended Hockey? I mean, he is not even my strongest town read?

Like, every accusation coming from you seems like it was made up on the spot...

[Lukewarm]

Well, let's not forget that just because he says he's town doesn't mean it's true.

Though for other reasons, I am having a hard time finding scum motivation in his play. It's anti town, but at the same time the reasons I can think of for which he'd make this play as scum are extremely risky, and even if it played out in his best case scenario, are still mostly detrimental to the scum team.

My final thoughts on Cyrus for the day.

The short version: Overall, I think I am comfortable dropping all discussion on Cyrus for the rest of the day. If there is someone out there who can counter claim him, please DO NOT COUNTER CLAIM over this nonsense. He should not be voted today, and the slot should basically resolve itself given some time.

Spoiler: The long version

I have no idea what role cyrus really has right now, because this seems like a terrible play from any point of view. So it is hard to say that this is too bad to be scum, because it is also too bad to be town.

If he really is the tracker, then this is a terrible play. The original crumb was not bad by itself, but since he kept pointing it out over and over again, he ensured that scum say with, and now scum knows where our PR is.

If he is really just a VT, trying to draw the night kill, then this is a terrible play. The original crumb was not bad by itself, but since he kept pointing it out over and over again, he ensure that the real PRs saw it, and risked a PRs counter claiming him

If he is scum, then this is a terrible play. Like it buys him today, but then we are all going to be looking at him tomorrow for his results.

I plan on playing the remainder of Day 1 pretending Cyrus is not in the lobby, because apparently interacting with him does not thing but increase the confusion.

[Lukewarm]

not everyone veers every read. go on, not now all. get in very easily yesterday on under under pain. not everyone veers every read! go on, not now all. lose everything to yesterday on under. don't over worry now.

I think that this post is the best thing to come out of the cyrus nonsense. Do not know the last time I was rick rolled. Made me chuckle.

[Lukewarm]

Luke pulled a fast one i was warned of a rb scum
Basically if I get no result I was roleblocked the way he said he will wait till d2 so I'm super suspicious of his play

I meant that if you were telling the truth, you were most likely going to die over night, so trying to figure you out today was a waste of energy.

"I was warned of a rb scum" is strangely worded. Who warned you?

[Lukewarm]

Wait. I said I was going to ignore him...

But then he flooded the thread with 20+posts since the last time I checked in

[Lukewarm]

Wait. I said I was going to ignore him...

But then he flooded the thread with 20+posts since the last time I checked in

Yeah same Luke but at least these are potentially interesting and seem to be actually trying to figure things out as opposed to borderline trolls

Also nobody else is posting this morning so...

Except even from the last time I checked in last night, until this morning he has accused Me, Zyla, HockeyFan, Haschel, and STD. He has also town read STD, Zyla, and You (who was previously one of his scum reads). I am struggling to follow his logic on his accusations, and putting them all out there back to back without giving anyone any time to respond to them, is not really helpful either :/

There is just so much, that I don't know what is worth talking about, like I don't even know which ones he still thinks and which ones he is just moving on from. It just feels like thread clog now. -- If I could get one cohesive, comprehensible read from him that we can build a conversation on, I could be happy

[Lukewarm]

Cyrus looks to be quoting every single post, in order at this point....

Is it possible to make it to where I see everyone's posts except for cyrus for the time being?

[Lukewarm]

Honestly I'm not sure what to discuss right now. I was hoping that HC would say something that could get some sort of conversation started, but it's been a while since we've seen him

I was just thinking it's been a while since we heard from haschel. I have his last post Friday at 3:45 EST. Is it time for a prod?

Yeah, it has been long enought

@Mod

[Lukewarm]

this makes since and thats the way i feel. but lukewarm was so sure of his town read on hockey he started pushing people on that wagon.

This is simply not true...

My scum reads have nothing to do with who was on Hockey's wagon. I am pretty sure I voted for Strange when all they had was a rvs vote on Hockey. And then I saw leaning scum on Azeru, who never voted for Hockey from what I can see. You are literally making this up

[Lukewarm]

std you are still a townread for me but . now i feel the need to see how you have really helped town find scum.

What???

You just quoted like 20 posts build up to "see, STD stepped in to save Strange for no reason" and they are a fucking town read of yours?

What the fuck?

[Lukewarm]

Probably should have worded this better. In post 268, you TR them in the first line but your final read is a null read on them? Your SR in that post was left blank(presumably because u

didnt

SR them)

I think you are not parsing out his comments the same way I am

Azeru - in 135 points out, rightly, that we somehow managed to get Hockey to e-1, and calls for us to chill the hell out. Read: town. But also establishes as somebody watching and tracking the game very closely. Read:scum. End result, I dunno. Neutral I guess.

I read that as

"Azeru - in 135 points out, rightly, that we somehow managed to get Hockey to e-1, and calls for us to chill the hell out. Read: town" Pav is giving Azeru townie points for 135

"But also establishes as somebody watching and tracking the game very closely. Read:scum" Pav is giving Azeru scummy points for this

"End result, I dunno. Neutral I guess" Since Pav has things that ping Azeru as scum and things that ping Azeru as town, they ended on neutral

[Lukewarm]

@Azeru

- you might miss it because of *vaguely gestures to the last 5 pages* But I responded to your question before.

Any follow up there?

Final 3 for completeness

Azeru

lean scum

Their iso feels very empty. Not just post count, but even in the posts they have, it is mostly just asking questions without putting any of their own reads/takes out there. Like they feel like they are being overly careful putting their own opinions into the thread (like every post before 237 has none of their own opinions)

Then 237, is their fist vote/push, and it is on Cyrus, which is a very non-controversial take.

333 and 351 are their first posts that feel like they are putting anything of their own out there... and not a fan of those either. Their apparent strongest town read is the person with the least posts in the thread, and even requires them to dismiss the things they don't like from the iso. Then there is shade on me and my strongest TR

You have every right to dismiss this statement as I have no proof to back it up really, but I'm generally a slow player that ramps up over the game. Early on I try to ask questions and gauge general feelings on people, but I don't like sharing my reads until I feel like they're solid enough to share. I don't like making insubstantial posts if I can help it.

That said, I can understand being put off by my vote on Cyrus. You said it was a non-controversial take at the time which I will agree with. But then you're also faulting me for my takes that you do seem to think are more controversial. Do you take issue with my reasoning or is it just that you don't agree with the reads?

Overall, I am getting the feeling that you are being overly cautious. Even with the takes you have had recently. Haschel is my town read, but there were these things that pinged me. Here is some shade for Luke, but I am not calling him scum, he is still null. Here is some shade for Zyla, but not calling her scum either, instead I'm gonna say I don't have a great read on her yet.

The only thing I have seen you put out there without some kind of qualifier, seems to be the cyrus push

[Lukewarm]

Okay well if thats the case azeru/pav probs arent partners but one of them is the 2nd scum

Of the two of them, I am more suspicious of Azeru

VOTE: Azeru

[Lukewarm]

Okay well if thats the case azeru/pav probs arent partners but one of them is the 2nd scum

Of the two of them, I am more suspicious of Azeru

VOTE: Azeru

so you dont find std scum like?

You can look to 319 for my thoughts on STD.

But to be quite honest, I am against following you anywhere.

[Lukewarm]

I can't help but get the feeling that Cyrus is trying to bury something that was said last night, given he has post 80+ posts in the last 24 hours. So I looked back at the things I had commented on, and I was talking about my scum read on Azeru before that.

[Lukewarm]

I can't help but get the feeling that Cyrus is trying to bury something that was said last night, given he has post 80+ posts in the last 24 hours. So I looked back at the things I had commented on, and I was talking about my scum read on Azeru before that.

Do other people have conversations that they feel like were derailed/buried by the recent flurry of posts?

[Lukewarm]

I can't help but get the feeling that Cyrus is trying to bury something that was said last night, given he has post 80+ posts in the last 24 hours. So I looked back at the things I had commented on, and I was talking about my scum read on Azeru before that.

i was showing people what poked out at me my bad. real getting frustrated how this feels more personal then game related .

I am sorry if that feels personal

But I saw you flooding the thread and asked myself why you would do that. My best theory was that you were burying something

[Lukewarm]

I can't help but get the feeling that Cyrus is trying to bury something that was said last night, given he has post 80+ posts in the last 24 hours. So I looked back at the things I had commented on, and I was talking about my scum read on Azeru before that.

i was showing people what poked out at me my bad. real getting frustrated how this feels more personal then game related .

I am sorry if that feels personal

But I saw you flooding the thread and asked myself why you would do that. My best theory was that you were burying something

it was 100% game related, but now I feel bad

[Lukewarm]

Scarey thing about a night kill it reveals alot if you anit careful
The town will wonder why that person was killed
They will look at that person's reads and if said person read town as scum maybe that's could lead to a myslynch
But if the person did pick that right scum it could be game over. So you see a night kill can reveal more about who scum is. That is why the best readings are on night 2

@lukewarm this is nai. i was trying to scare scum in to making a mistake . but bury no i did mess up on it though since i put night2 instead of d2

I am not sure I am following you.

You were posting a lot because you made a mistake there?

Or are you saying, you were posting a lot to try and get the scum team to make a mistake trying to respond to you?

[Lukewarm]

To be completely up front with you, the way you were posting was getting me frustrated. I did think that there might be an ulterior motive behind hit, but maybe I let the frustration seep into my posts a bit too much. -- I am really sorry if I crossed a line

[Lukewarm]

Maybe next time wait until you are on a pc, and then spoiler all of the relevant quotes, so that they are not taking up the entire thread ?

[Lukewarm]

Maybe next time wait until you are on a pc, and then spoiler all of the relevant quotes, so that they are not taking up the entire thread ?

Regardless, I guess I am gonna go back and dig in and to see if I follow your accusations

[Lukewarm]

I think that what made your push so hard to follow originally was that it seemed like you were shading a differenet person with every post. Like I tried to keep up, and I saw shade for me, std, strange, hockey, and haschel while reading through

STD - 477, 482, 487, 494, 495, 525
Me - 482, 522
Hockey - 489, 499, 510, 517, 524
Strange - 491, 496, 535
Haschel - 493 497 502

So it felt like I read

"Std must be scum because they defended Strange"
"Luke must be scum, because he was so sure of his hockey TR"
"Hockey must be scum because he white knighted Luke"
"Strange must be scum because they had to be told to respond"
"Haschel must be scum because he focused so much on Strange's rvs vote"

And reading all of that back to back, makes it hard to really buy into any of the accusations you are throwing out there, because clearly they cannot all be true, and it is hard to see one person accusing that many people so rapidly.

If you had to pick 1 accusation for me to weigh in on, which would it be?

[Lukewarm]

If you had to pick 1 accusation for me to weigh in on, which would it be?

Like, which are you most confident in right now?

[Lukewarm]

Okay, got a chance to look back at std and haschel in pages 3-5

For STD, I have two, conflicting thoughts.

First, I like their read progression on haschel after haschel's post 50. Like, STD gets suspicious over the empty vote, and calling haschel out for it in 52, then walks back his shade in 56. If he is scum trying to shade haschel, why walk it back 4 posts later? why look back and see that haschel has a reason to vote her?

But then, I am put off by this line " just think haschel might know give a newbie a little slack when it comes to not answering but maybe now strangematter will answer"

@std, at the time, haschel is the only person voting strange, does she really need some slack there?


Looking back at haschel, it does seems weird that haschel seemed like they were building up to something with Strange, and then just dropped it. Like he asked Strange a direct question in 63, strange answered in 64, and then Haschel just changes gears to grilling hockey.

@Haschel, what were you trying to get at with Strange in that line of questioning, and why did you drop it?

[Lukewarm]

Wait a minute, I'm on page 19 and somebody quoted the OP. Cyrus is SE? I assumed he was a newbie. He's still not the vote for today but nobody else should be listening to him right now.

Is this the only take you had during your catch up haschel?

I don't know what I expected when I came back, but I expected something :/

[Lukewarm]

Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.

StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?

to every one this isnt a clime its a answer to a question.

I'm actually kinda glad that you say that, because that was my thoughts too, it seems like a reasonable response to my question. I just left it alone because I wanted to see where people were going with that and then it seemed too late to bring it up

Huh, I thought it was a claim, but I guess it could be an answer to your question.

[Lukewarm]

And they say I'm hard to follow. So how do you feel about lukewarm votein them?

dont like it much tbh, but I think Luke voting Azeru is simply a TvT interaction

Show me how town like you are and vote haschel so we can pressure him in to talking.

eh sure why not but by EOD i am pivoting my vote back to STD

UNVOTE:
VOTE: haschel

You know, pressure does not really work if you say that you don't plan on following through with it

VOTE: haschel

This is E-1

Talk to us! Talk to us! Talk to us!

[Lukewarm]

i think intent to hammer might get his attention. but how long before we see him respond?

please no

[Lukewarm]

@Azeru I think you misunderstood the 542 stuff with pav. I was not saying that about him, I was helping hockey parse pav's statement. I agree that pav is on the lower end of content, and that makes is a bit harder to read him, he is sitting in null for me atm. But he gave a full read list, and generally gives out opinions a little more readily then you have appeared to. That is the difference that had him sitting a tier higher then you.

That being said, you got a little townier in my eyes with this line

but at this point I would honestly rather be scum read for having wishy-washy reads than lean into a read that I don't fully believe in.

[Lukewarm]

Are we seriously still waiting for a response from him?

He could easily say something but I guess not.

What do you mean by this message?

Can you reword?

[Lukewarm]

Are we seriously still waiting for a response from him?

He could easily say something but I guess not.

What do you mean by this message?

Can you reword?

I just want them to talk. They just need to be active in this game, but so far haven't. Not talking doesn't help anyone in this game, but it'd be stupid to vote and eliminate them for being silent.

okay...

I read it as "why are we waiting, he could have said something if he wanted, shouldn't we just hammer" and I was getting ready to move my vote back to you.

I am still a little worried that that was designed to egg someone to voting for him....

[Lukewarm]

Actually

VOTE: strange

[Lukewarm]

Actually

VOTE: strange

Haschel wagon averted with this vote

And? Do you have a point?

I don't actively scum read haschel, I just am mainly concerned by his lurking.

I actively scum read strange at this point, and if she is trying to egg people into hammering haschel, I don't want to leave it at e-1

Very much do not like the vague shade coming from Pav.

[Lukewarm]

I have no been egging people into hammering haschel. Where did you get that idea from? I'd say that hammering, either from me or another person who didn't vote them, is a terrible idea.

I literally already called you out over it??

Saying this, when Haschel is already at e-1

Are we seriously still waiting for a response from him?

He could easily say something but I guess not.

[Lukewarm]

I will come back later tonight. My grandpa died 30 minutes ago and that has knocked this down my priority list.

Please don’t kill me before then.

Oh, sorry to hear that dude.

[Lukewarm]

I have no been egging people into hammering haschel. Where did you get that idea from? I'd say that hammering, either from me or another person who didn't vote them, is a terrible idea.

I literally already called you out over it??

Saying this, when Haschel is already at e-1

Are we seriously still waiting for a response from him?

He could easily say something but I guess not.

That still does not make sense to me, so you believed that I tried to get someone else on Hazel right?

Also, E-1.

Uh, yeah.

He is sitting at e-1, and you came in with - are we seriously still waiting? If he wanted to talk he could have, but clearly he didn't-

Setting up a "why wait" feeling in the thread

[Lukewarm]

i feel seeing where lukewarm top scum read flips . you can learn alot about lynches . luke has been pushing him for a bit now.

I mean yeah. They are my top scum read

Telling other people not to give out town reads. Telling people they should focus on scum reads, but then not having any scum reads of their own. Lots of posts without actually saying very much - like look at their iso, it is almost all defended themselves- Then this recent bit with Haschel

[Lukewarm]

@Strange

If you are town, who do you think that we should be looking at right now. One of my biggest issues with you, is that you seem so passive / reactive in the thread. You have a decent number of posts, like you know you should be contributing, but then when I look at your iso I find it hard to nail down what you are thinking about any other player in the game. Like this entire game is about trying to figure out other people's alignment, and it is hard to see evidence that you are doing that reading your posts. You seem more interested in self preservation - and that is scum indicative.



Taking another look at your iso, I did see this

Forgot to do this but, this slot is too scummy for me not to talk about right now.

Vote: Pavowski

Is Pav still the person you are most suspicious of? If yes, why? If no, then who?

[Lukewarm]

Going to unvote strange I think scum is on thire wagon. And thats why its taken so long

They are at e-1. We have 5 days left before the deadline.

If they are scum, do you expect town to have quick hammered the wagon when it hit e-1?

If they are town, do you think that the scum team would have quick hammered the wagon when it hits e-1?

I don't think either one of those things is likely...

Why do you think that scum!strange would have been hammered faster then town!strange?

You're reasoning for joining and abandoning pushes is hard to follow :/

[Lukewarm]

How likely would semi experienced scum pull two of the same trick out anyways?

I don't know what this means

[Lukewarm]

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

[Lukewarm]

I think I am going to have to give this game another look over before I know where I want to push

[Lukewarm]

Are you saying I'm not scum, because I have no direction with any of the angles that I have tried pushing so far?

I think that you might actually be town, because you were put to e-1 in part because you seem to be lacking content and also focused on defending yourself, and then you made 680, which is still mostly just defending yourself.

I

had to tell you that you needed to be pointing us in a different direction if you wanted the wagon - out here in the main thread - when if you had a partner your partner would have told you that in the mafia PT.

And then after I prodded you for a push somewhere else, the case you came back with was hard to follow. Like, I read 687 and was confused, asked for clarification, then was still confused after 689. When again, if you had a partner, you could have someone saying "Push X for Y" helping you come up with a clearer push to make.

All in all, I am getting the feeling that you don't have someone in the background trying to coach you, and I am backing up for a min to see if the things that I was scum reading you for are actually just because you are new -

I will get back to you with how I read you, but now I am questioning it enough that I am not sure that I want you to be at E-1.

[Lukewarm]

Not sure how to feel about STD putting you back at E-1 either....

Although, I did look back in his iso, and he stated he was scum reading you and willing to hammer after people had time to look over the case. So I guess he did not see the same thing I did in your responses?

I am interested if Pav and/or Azeru agree with me or with STD on how you are handling being at E-1

[Lukewarm]

and if lukewarm is scum hockey is with them.

we anit going to be able to lynch hockey either way. luke refuses to push him . hockey wont vote him self and i dont see pav or azul making the push. hascals largely mia.

VOTE: hockeyfan

now watch no one will put him to l1 let alone hammer him.

I really don't like this angle. Like, I have stated that I was thinking that Hockey was town. So obviously, I have been pushing on the people I have been more suspicious of. What, do you think that I should vote for my town reads?

I am reading this, and I don't know how to take it other then you pressuring me to vote my town reads. If you think I should be voting for hockey, convince me that he is scummy. Or address the reasons I think he is town. Don't just put this out there, because it feels like I am just being pressured to vote him to prove that we are not the scum team, but like that is a shitty reason to vote someone. If anything, this approach from you makes me want to dig my heels in on my town read, just because I don't want to move just because of the way you are pressuring it.

And to be clear, the "no one will hammer" line is nonsense. Why do are you so eager to have a hammer right now? If we get closer to the deadline, maybe THEN I will be willing to compromise and vote against my reads because getting any elimination is better then letting the day end without an elimination - but why should I vote against my reads now, with plenty of time left?

[Lukewarm]

Maybe I am addressing the wrong person....

@Zyla, why do you think that Hockey is scummy?

[Lukewarm]

Also, Zyla, did you have any thoughts on Strange wrt 698

[Lukewarm]

you see this right here is why im sus. you call each other null untill askd why you wont vote them . then they become town. i sweer if it it is hockey or lukewarm who is scum and we dont lynch one . i will not play another game with you lot.

And this right here is why I find it hard to follow your pushes. It seems like every time you say anything about me or the things I have said or done, it is wrong. When did I have him as null? He has explicitly been a town read of mine for a while.

And if you keep finding me scummy for things that you are misremembering, it makes it harder for me to trust your other scum reads :/

[Lukewarm]

you see this right here is why im sus. you call each other null untill askd why you wont vote them . then they become town. i sweer if it it is hockey or lukewarm who is scum and we dont lynch one . i will not play another game with you lot.

And this right here is why I find it hard to follow your pushes. It seems like every time you say anything about me or the things I have said or done, it is wrong. When did I have him as null? He has explicitly been a town read of mine for a while.

And if you keep finding me scummy for things that you are misremembering, it makes it harder for me to trust your other scum reads :/

orher. i only have two.

You have called every single player in the thread scum at one point or another. I am talking about all of those, not just your current reads

[Lukewarm]

this is what luke saids now. but here is what hockey said.

Are you saying that you are going to compare what I said now compared to what Hockey said before, in order to prove that I am changing my reads to fit the situation?

Shouldn't you compare me to me?

[Lukewarm]

HockeyFan - I am still leaning town here I think.

So now that I am done with my isos, I think I am at
Strange>Azeru>>Pav=STD=Herchel>

Hockey

>Zyla

I really don't like this angle. Like, I have stated that I was thinking that Hockey was town.

you see this right here is why im sus. you call each other null untill askd why you wont vote them . then they become town.

Please show me where I am doing the thing that you are accusing me of doing?

This is what I am talking about. You accuse me based on things that are simply not true, and then wonder why I don't want to follow your vote...

[Lukewarm]

Do you really think that the best play for me to make here is to just follow your vote?

[Lukewarm]

this is what luke saids now. but here is what hockey said.

Are you saying that you are going to compare what I said now compared to what Hockey said before, in order to prove that I am changing my reads to fit the situation?

Shouldn't you compare me to me?

more interested in showing why i think there is a distance play. here.

Yes. The classic "distance" play of town reading each other

[Lukewarm]

No-

No you didn't... You told me that I should be voting Hockey.

I do not want to offend you again, but I do feel like if I keep responding to you, we are going to just dominate the thread.

I think I am gonna wait for Zyla to get back to me before I post again :/

[Lukewarm]

Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.

Okay, I guess I will look to your iso to try and figure it out

[Lukewarm]

From looking at your mentions of him, I think it boils down to him avoiding your questions early in the day, and then you tthink his reads are not genuine because he can't back them up or outright walks them back when you press him on it

Spoiler:

18->74 with STD
112->153 with me
194->211 with you
544->738 with Pav and Azeru

Did I miss anything you want me to look at as well?

If that is your case, I will go back and look at his pushes. I think that for the first chunk of the day, I was mainly interacting with his weird partner interaction case on me. I know I have a tendency to TR people who loudly push me, because I don't feel like I am a particularly easy person to push a miselim on, and I expect scum to be looking for that kind of person to target Day 1.

I am not sure that I saw enough in your iso to shake my own read on him, but I will give it a second look.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Alright there are a few directions I'm interested in going. First off, Strange spends the bulk of the game focusing on just three players. There's a lot of suspicion about HockeyFan, a whole lot of sound with no substance about Cyrus, and the interactions with Pavowski which ultimately result in a vote on Pavowski. There are a few things I see here. First of all, the push back on Pavowski is not good. Pav is playing very pro-town, and his vote for Strange is well-reasoned and well-justified. Meanwhile, Strange's defense of their own vote on Pav comes across as lackluster to me.

Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.

So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).

Vote: Zyla

is a good road to follow and Zyla/Strange isn't a possibility that strikes me as beyond the pale.

Meanwhile Azeru is making some posts that I like, and Fen seems weirdly focused on me to a point that is disproportionate with the few posts I had made.

I'm still gonna be rereading more, but this should provide enough of a framework for a discussion for now.

I feel like you made a better case against strange then you did against Zyla, but then you placed your vote on Zyla. Can you talk more about why you went with Zyla over strange?

A lot of what you said about Strange matches some of my own concerns over that slot, but I am reading Zyla as town, so I am curious what you are seeing there.

[Lukewarm]

I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.

[Lukewarm]

I also find it strange that you boiled her scumread on Strange down to "mostly just gut" when this is what she said

Honestly, looking through their Iso, I just see a lot of posts with very little to say. Mostly gut read though

Sure she says that it is gut, but she also backs it up with saying that she is posting a lot with very little content. And, like compare that to the case you just made against Zyla

But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not.

Why is that a good reason for you to scum read Zyla, but then a weak reason for Zyla to scum read Strange?

[Lukewarm]

I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.

"Decent amount" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; besides the post preceding the vote and 155 it's all incredibly light. Why specifically are you reading Zyla as town?

As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.

Preview Edit: For starters I'm not claiming "gut". Second of all, Strange had made a ton of game-relevant posts to comment on so "a lot of posts with little say" isn't really an accurate description. Up to that point in the game Strange had been saying a fair bit about Hockey and Cyrus. That's not nothing.

I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.

Spoiler:

70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757

I also liked the way that she handled Cyrus.

I will admit that a decent part of the reason my town read on her is as confident as it is, is that I just witnessed her scum game, and she feels very different in this game.

I think my only real concern in regards to Zyla is that she seems a bit overly focused on Hockey, but I don't think that you can genuinely argue that she has not been pushing him and repeatedly questioning him over things that she found scummy.

[Lukewarm]

Maybe it is {HC, Strange}

That would explain his "sure, Strange is scummy, but lets transition to Zyla instead" move, and that could explain why Strange didn't have someone in a PT helping them deal with being put at e-1.

[Lukewarm]

Dude, most of her posts are making multiple points, and you are cherry picking the ones that fit the case you are trying to make, and ignoring the others.

Like every single bullet point in 772 is terrible. You are looking at the posts, finding the weakest single sentence in the post, and then claiming that that is the primary content of the post, which is just wrong.

Spoiler:

Will go point by point. To be clear, I am not arguing that her case on Hockey is rock solid. The argument that I am making is that she is clearly digging into hockey, and the way you/HC are summarizing her posts is bull.

1) You focused on the RQS question, and ignored her calling him out over the the STD read

2)That is a good thing?? If he is pressed over a read, and the response is "don't pay attention to my reads" why would she not keep pushing?

3)Here she is asking him to define how he is coming to a scum read. You are also ignored the fact that she pushes him over his partner associations. Like the exact line of questioning that she puts towards Hockey here, is the same basis for your vote on him in 132, but then you completely skip over that aspect of the questioning.

4) I will concede the point about how Hockey would have perceived me; I was adversarial with his logic, which I can understand him taking to be that I thought he was scum.
But you ignore the part entirely, where she is also pressuring him over his scum read on her in that post.

5) Again, you are ignoring the thing that she is actually pressing him over, which is the stuff over his reads of Azeru and Pav.

[Lukewarm]

In case people are interested in seeing what I look for when I am looking for partner interactions, this is it.

Scum don't say that their partner is a town read. Scum don't step in to defend their partner.

Scum say, "yeah, my partner is scummy, but this other person is scummier, lets get them first"

[Lukewarm]

Haschel, I think that we are having two different discussions. I am arguing that Zyla has been clearly prodding and questioning him trying to sort him, which makes me think that she is town genuinely trying to sort him. You appear to be arguing that Zyla's case on HockeyFan is not strong enough to convince you to scum read him.

Counterpoint, what should HockeyFan have done with his read? Doubled down?

Like this. That has nothing to do with the arguement I am trying to make. I think that a town player sees a town read that makes no sense, and they push it. Hockey's reaction does not change whether or not I think Zyla's reaction looks townie.

Yeah I skipped over that aspect of the questioning because it's an aspect I stopped caring about a long time ago.

And here. Whether or not the point Zyla was raising at the time is still relevent now does not matter. At the time, she was locking in on something that she found suspicious, something that you locked in on at the exact same time. But because you don't care now, you are discounting it as town indicative for her to focus on it at the time.

I was very explicit that I can't evaluate that stuff yet until I do my dive into Hockeyfan.

One thing I think we can agree on is this though. I feel like I really need to do a deep dive on HockeyFan again. -- I almost feel icky stepping into the position of arguing Zyla's scum read for her, when I am not sure I even agree with her read.

Basically, I think that Zyla appears genuine in the way that she has pushed HockeyFan, which makes me think she is town, but now I need to figure out how much I agree with her her take / is it enough to change my read on Hockey.

Spoiler:

And I can think she is town, even if I disagree with her read.

[Lukewarm]

In case people are interested in seeing what I look for when I am looking for partner interactions, this is it.

Scum don't say that their partner is a town read. Scum don't step in to defend their partner.

Scum say, "yeah, my partner is scummy, but this other person is scummier, lets get them first"

not all scum do that read my 6 scum games

i hurt some one by busing once wont do it again. i do have a heart.

Maybe re-read my message. I did not describe bussing. I described how 1 scum could SAVE their partner. That is like the opposite of bussing lol

[Lukewarm]

Fuck, Am I just wrong on luke here? Like the luke v Haschel interaction is (probs TVT?) but the fact that Luke just HAD to defend the first real pressure zyla has gotten all game seems odd to me. @Luke, im assuming u hard TR Zyla here then right?

Zyla being town is my most confident read in the game. And the way that Haschel pushed on Zyla seemed really fishy. Specifically the "made a case for Strange, but voted for Zyla" and then his case seems cherry picked to fit that narrative. - Why in the world would I not call that out?

That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for - like thats the game.

Spotting people making cases that don't seem genuine, and moves that look like they could fit into a scum agenda (saving Strange without looking like he is defending her).

What do you think I should do if I feel like that is what I am seeing?

[Lukewarm]

Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.

Okay, I guess I will look to your iso to try and figure it out

"My read is based off of gut instinct and maybe some confirmation bias, and I haven't seen enough to reverse that."
"Okay, I'll figure out why you're feeling that way myself."

I would say that you focused on the first half of Zyla's post here, and I focused on the back half. "To counteract the thing I've pointed out before previously" To which I was responding, I guess I will go find the things you have pointed out previously.

I was actually being a little sarcastic towards Zyla when I typed it, "I guess I will go look in your iso to try and figure it out, [since you did not just restate is when I asked]" although I can see that that does not really read looking at it.

And then an entire post in 760 dedicated to, again, detailing Zyla's reads for her.

And then continuing to argue with Haschel on Zyla's behalf for multiple more posts. This in and of itself isn't terrible, defending a town read is one thing. But following 758/760? I do not like this.

The only point I can make for Luke's case in this is that he at least somewhat recognized what he was doing at the end of 780, but the whole thing is really rubbing me the wrong way.

I think I was primed to do make that case against HC, because I had just done 758/760. Like I literally did a deep dive into Zyla's iso, and saw each of the things that Zyla had pushed Hockey for, so then, literally the second I hit send for 760, I HC's 759 popped up on my screen, and I am like "what do you mean, she has not been scum hunting Hockey. I literally, just seconds ago went and looked at all of the posts where she did the very thing that you are claiming she did not do.

[Lukewarm]

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

I wanna revisit this thing tbh. Most of the pressure on Strange just .... died down?

Yeah, Luke kinda killed the push with this post. I will say that I don't entirely think it was unwarranted. I was feeling like the push wasn't really going anywhere and I take it that's where Luke was too.

I am curious why me moving my vote means that I killed that push, since Strange made it back to at e-1 without me.

Why is a push only alive if I am on it? I noticed the same thing before. Like when I moved from voting HC to voting strange, someone said that I killed that push too. And when I did not want to vote Hockey, cyrus seemed to think that meant the wagon was dead on arrival.

If no wagon can live without without me on it, I think we have some problems. I know I am loud in the thread, but I don't particularly want to be the town leader :/

[Lukewarm]

And they will not move to lynch any one. A a no lynch is better than a .mislynch at least we don't lose town but if you lot let these 2 keep running things . We will lose 2 town by day2

This is very wrong.

A miselim day 1 is always better then a no elim day 1....

A no elim deprives town of information.

[Lukewarm]

I am going to put my vote back to Strange. I am still a little off put of the wagon wrt them not seeming to have a partner, but Azeru is looking townier recently, so I don't know where else to plant my vote atm.

VOTE: Strange

Maybe I am just downing out the thread. I want to get a better since of where people are sitting

Zyla, please make a scum case on Hockey if you think that is a better push then Strange. Assume I have no idea why you are suspicious of him, Talk to me like I am 5.

Hockey, please scum case StD if you think that is a better push then Strange

Strange, please make a scum case on who ever you think is the best push rn, I am thinking you are leaning Pav, but maybe you will surprise me?

Azeru, Pav, STD - who is your top choice for an elim today? I think Strange was the most recent vote for each of you, but if you think that we should look somewhere else over strange, drop a case.

I feel like I should step back, and let everyone else air their thoughts out into the thread more

[Lukewarm]

@Pav - Did you answer my question from 802?

Spoiler: In regards to the white noise

There is a *lot* of Cyrus/Luke interaction which is basically white noise to me. I don't think there is anything else to be learned from Cyrus, or interactions with him, until our next "day". It is somewhat interesting that Luke seems to agree with this but continues to engage. Making this actually the first time Luke has pinged me in a distinctly scummy way.

If you are curious why I started interacting with cyrus more, you can look back at 556-560

I have been trying to minimize it again, but not completely shut it down. I don't know, I would rather do something that may be a little bad for town (making white noise as you say) then be the reason someone is not having fun in the game.

[Lukewarm]

so im anti town because i would rather us not lynch then to lynch town ok.

In a 9v2 game, we can make 2 mistakes before we lose. If we do not elim someone today, then we enter into a 8v2 game. In that scenario, we get to make 1 mistake before we lose. Basically, the scum team gets to decide more of the kills before elo that way, and can more easily set themselves up to win.

Another way to look at it, if we elim every day we are able to kill off the the 2 scummiest townies in addition to the 2 scum. So for the scum team to win, they have to be townier then 3 other players. If we no elim today, we are able to kill off 1 scummy townie, in addition to the 2 scum. So for the scum team to win, they have to be townier then 2 other players

No elim on Day 1 quite simply makes the game easier for the scum team to win.

[Lukewarm]

I think I am realizing that a lot of people in this lobby don't know how to make a scum case

[Lukewarm]

so im anti town because i would rather us not lynch then to lynch town ok.

In a 9v2 game, we can make 2 mistakes before we lose. If we do not elim someone today, then we enter into a 8v2 game. In that scenario, we get to make 1 mistake before we lose. Basically, the scum team gets to decide more of the kills before elo that way, and can more easily set themselves up to win.

Another way to look at it, if we elim every day we are able to kill off the the 2 scummiest townies in addition to the 2 scum. So for the scum team to win, they have to be townier then 3 other players. If we no elim today, we are able to kill off 1 scummy townie, in addition to the 2 scum. So for the scum team to win, they have to be townier then 2 other players

No elim on Day 1 quite simply makes the game easier for the scum team to win.

Can't be bothered to check your math at the moment, but the sentiment I agree with. That said, the game is 9 players total, not 11. 7v2.

Yeah, the way I typed it was misleading. I meant 9 players w/ 2 scum compared to 8 players w/ 2 scum. - but the idea is still the same.

[Lukewarm]

regardless my vote blocks strange from dieing at end of day if you guys cant decide

I actually cannot understand this mindset. I would self hammer to avoid a no elim Day 1 in this set up :/

[Lukewarm]

I did the deep dive on Hockey like I promised.

I think that the biggest thing that concerns me is posts 89 and 124

Spoiler:

Ok so, I town read STD because of post#13. That post had the aura of being "I am town, I'm confident and I am going to win this game for town". My read switched on him because of posts #52 and #56 where he said "strangematter, i think haschel wants your attention" and "i just think haschel might know give a newbie a little slack when it comes to not answering". These 2 statements feel like very mafia partnery like to relieve some pressure

As of right now, Strangematter is a null read for me(maybe leaning scum), You are my strongest scum read, so does that mean i'm not allowed to see other pairs in partnership because fwiw the strangematter/STD pair seemed very likely. I was suspicious because I have 0 idea why STD Needs to intervene their. Like my SR'S rn are You -> STD -> StrangeMatter. Hope this helps. and btw, My read on u might change back to null soon based on the interactions between strange and STD

Yea sorry about that should have clarified, the arrows in between STD and Strange dont necessarily mean "This person is wayyyyy scummier". I just used that list as "possible 3 scum fmpov". That list is interchangeable especially STD and Strange

They don't seem logically consistent. If (at the time) he thought std was town, except for this one partner interaction with Strange, then they automatically would not be interchangeable. STD would only be a scum read, after determining if Strange is scum... So this does feel a bit

off

That is not enough for him to suddenly be a scum read, but I do not like that.

Otherwise, there are several places that I did not agree with the logic he was using to give out reads, but did not find anything that he pointed out particularly scummy. - I don't know. It is hard to get my TR of him out of my head. Maybe it is a little weaker of a read after looking it over, but I think I am still leaning town here.

[Lukewarm]

I think that I am at

Zyla

Azeru
Hockey

Pav

HC
STD

Strange

Key take aways, Azeru has seemed a LOT townier recently, and I also think I am against a HC wagon. A lot of my suspicion on him comes from thinking he might have been trying to save Strange, so there is no reason to flip him before a Strange flip from my POV.

If people are against a Strange elim, then I could do an STD flip. I would expect more coming from his slot since he is an SE this game, but then he has also said he has irl stuff going on, so idk. Not planning on pushing here, but am willing to move there if it is the difference between a no-elim or not.

[Lukewarm]

Pfft. Haha. I tried getting them to work.

@Strange, formatting help

Spoiler:

There is an easy way to learn how to format it.

Start making a post that says

The first part of 842

Hit preview.

Highlight the numbers 842, and with them highlighted, click the button that says "post" along the top, like the line where you would bold or underline the text.

It will automatically format the post link to that number for you, and then you can look at how it is supposed to be.
---------------------------
You should never fill in the numbers after the = sign in the formatting. It automatically does that for you

[Lukewarm]

Just throwing this out there to help town. StrangeMatter is at e2 and std is at e3 if this remains even if there's no hammer StrangeMatter still dies

If I'm not mistaken, all newbie games require a hammer, time running out is a no-elim

Yes, a hammer is required, and Cyrus is surely aware of from their earlier games (they are an SE), and from the fact that they actively said that they were not going to hammer, so town would no elim Day 1

I thought cyrus had stopped purposefully making bad posts around the time I decided to start interacting with them more, but I think they are sliding back into purposefully bad posts :/

[Lukewarm]

any way I dislike a StrangeMatter elim

Then who do you want to elim?

Hockey? Me? Vote for one of us instead of leaving your vote in limbo.

Be the change you want to see in the world

[Lukewarm]

I have no issue with you not wanting to vote someone you think is town, but like, you should be voting your scum reads. From what I have gathered about your reads, you should probably vote for either Hockey or vote for me. I would feel better with that, then seeing you vote for a no elim.

[Lukewarm]

no deaths well thanks doc who ever you are. lukewarm went no where last night

To clarify:
Did you get "No action"? Or "No result"?

This is a good question. It will let us know if we are dealing with a roleblocker or not

I gave the game another look over night, and right now my biggest suspicion is STD. For most of Day 1 he was very passive/lurky, and then at the end of day, he looks like he was opportunistic with his vote, like his voting does not seem super genuine.

Like when he kept Strange at e-1, after I left the push, like he was hoping it would still go through without me

Spoiler:

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

VOTE: strangematter

When that wagon stalled out, he jumped to the next push on Hockey

Spoiler:

VOTE: hockeyfan

e-2

And then he abandoned that wagon when lost steam, he went back to Strange - and his reasoning looks suspicious to me

Spoiler:

Town
Azeru
Pav
Cyrus

Null (town lean)
Luke
Zyla

Null (scum lean)
Haschel

Scum
Strange
Hockeyfan

i like the wagon composition on strangematter

VOTE: StrangeMatter E-1

He votes for strange because he "likes the wagon composition." Which is a weird reason to join a wagon imo. It is like he avoids saying she is scummy here because he knows she is getting ready to flip town. Like he is trying to absolve himself of the vote -- "I only voted that way because I trusted you guys **points at Azeru, Pav, and me**"

VOTE: std

[Lukewarm]

Why are u guys voting so early into the day

Why not? There are 8 alive, so it still takes 5 votes for a wagon to pass. There is not a big danger of speed hammers today.

[Lukewarm]

hmmm this is odd so now i think jail keeper locked up the roleblocker.

That is a possibility. If we have a jailkeeper, and they think they targeted the nightkill target, the point is moot, but if we have a jailkeeper, who was targeting a scum read, they should act as if they just got a cop guilty, and push their target.

[Lukewarm]

In which case, the doc will read my message that starts "if we have a jailkeeper" and ignore the directions lol

[Lukewarm]

gonna try to give this game the activity it deserves. that said i have friends coming over so i'll try to post tonight

[Lukewarm]

I mean, I probably would not have thought anything of it if he had not specifically said hew as gonna post last night, but because he said that I logged on specifically looking for his post.

[Lukewarm]

I already mentioned my concerns with STDs votes.

And then Cyrus's "I'm not going to hammer" -> "I saw your crumb" -> "hammering," obviously. But, like, I cannot bring my self to try and figure out what he is doing.

[Lukewarm]

Did you mean ALL votes, or the EoD votes? I remember you posted a list, but have not really looked at it too closely.

[Lukewarm]

I am looking at the list you posted in 914, and trying to guess what caught your eye.

I assume it is Zyla only having one vote the entire day? That is the only thing that stands out

[Lukewarm]

Having the post numbers there, does make it clearer that STD was lurking early day, like he rode his RVS vote until the day was almost over, then was wagon shopping

[Lukewarm]

Zyla: Hockey (71)

Zyla only voting on an early wagon pings me hard. To call it a wagon might be a stretch, though I do think Hockey was the one who got run up to e-1 in a big damn hurry very early in the day.

I agree that this one stands out, but she also makes it clear repeatedly throughout the day that she is suspicious of Hockey. If anything, I would say she was a bit tunneled on him, which I think is more likely to come from town? Like, wouldn't scum be trying to get a wagon to pass? And she stayed clear of the strange wagon both times it picked up steam

Haschel: Strange (50), Hockey (132)

Haschel had meta issues in the latter part of the "day" so I'm trying not to read too hard into this. However, upon return he joined in the hard sus on Strange and worked hard to make several reads .... but never voted.

You missed a vote from Haschel in 759 for Zyla.

I am not sure how to feel about Haschel atm. I was suspicious of how he handled Strange/Zyla EoD, but that suspicion was mainly tied to it looking like he might be trying to save strange, which makes less sense for a scum player to do now, knowing Strange's alignment.

Azeru: Cyrus (237), Strange (629)

These are also very easy votes to make at the time they were made.

I called Azeru out a during the first half of the day for basically this same thing. I thought they were a lot townier in the later parts of the day tho, and it is a little hard to fault him for thinking Strange was scummy. (I think the entire lobby scum read her, except maybe Cyrus.)

I will give him a second look later today.

[Lukewarm]

Me not going anywhere does not full clear me.

There are two possibilities where I could be scum, and have not moved.

Obviously, if Cyrus's claim is not true, then I am not cleared at all lol

The other possibility, is that my hypothetical scum partner multitasked - which is possible, but not likely I don't think? It seems like a dangerous move, if they know we have a tracker - the scum PR would be the only person in the game that the tracker could see visit two different player in the same night. So imo, it is most likely that both scum moved/tried to move during the night. The scum PR to use their ability, and the goon to do the NK - But again, that is not guaranteed.

[Lukewarm]

I think that there should not be a mass claim today, but there probably should be one tomorrow. With there not being a NK Night 1, we are in a decent enough place to push that off / deny the info from the scum team for their night kill tonight. But then tomorrow, it will give us a lot of info to work with.

[Lukewarm]

The other possibility, is that my hypothetical scum partner multitasked - which is possible, but not likely I don't think? It seems like a dangerous move, if they know we have a tracker - the scum PR would be the only person in the game that the tracker could see visit two different player in the same night. So imo, it is most likely that both scum moved/tried to move during the night. The scum PR to use their ability, and the goon to do the NK - But again, that is not guaranteed.

Thinking more about this, I think they are more likely to have a rolecop then a role blocker. If they had a RB, then wouldn't the scum team both block and NK cyrus to cover their bases incase he got saved?

[Lukewarm]

Enough with mechanics though, and back to scum hunting

So, I was actually thinking that the scum team might have been [STD, Pav] but now they are crossvoting, so that seems less likely to me now lol

[Lukewarm]

I think you missed my point there Cyrus - but I don't think that focusing on it is going to help us.

@Zyla Also, what are your thoughts on STD - I am feeling really good about pushing there today

Also, has your read on Hockey changed at all, since you realized you had less evidence then you thought in 842.

[Lukewarm]

Also, has your read on Hockey changed at all, since you realized you had less evidence then you thought in 842.

And here?

[Lukewarm]

I think I am getting a bit more comfortable with my solve of STD + [Pav or HC].

I am liking all of You, Hockey, and Azeru for town. And then I think that if anyone could have counter claimed Cyrus by now, they would have, so unless that happens I think I am just going to keep Cyrus in a "town despite all signs otherwise" bin

[Lukewarm]

I think I am getting a bit more comfortable with my solve of STD + [Pav or HC].

In this version of events STD and I, as fellow mafia, are clumsy enough to be on the same wagon with plenty of time left on the clock on d1, and then out of the gate try to bus each other before there's any pressure on either of us on d2? Seriously, as of the time of you posting this AND me posting this morning, there are 3 votes on the board, and if I'm scum with STD, this theory alleges 2 of the 3 are scum bussing each other.

I mean, I could see sussing him or me, but putting us on a team together is a heck of a call.

I mean, yeah that solve very much is based on me being suspicious of the two of you independently of one another. Like, even if you keep reading the post you quoted, you can see that I am poe'ing my way down to it, and state my town reads for how I got there. If we flip std, and he comes up scum, then yeah - I'm gonna look and see which of [you, hc] makes more sense to be std's partner, but I am not going rule you out based on associations preflip.

And by the way, the two of you cross voting is a possibility I will take into consideration. I mean, I already am somewhat.

So, I was actually thinking that the scum team might have been [STD, Pav] but now they are crossvoting, so that seems less likely to me now

The cross vote is what moved me from STD > Pav > HC to STD > HC = Pav

[Lukewarm]

In fact, it's the first thing Luke has done in this game that has pinged me as particularly scummy.

{snip}
his logic putting me on a team with STD escapes me and feels out of character, so I have to lean him into the scum side. Then again, Haschel seems to be his 2nd scum read, and I agree with that, so...

And this take coming from you pings me pretty hard...

Like "If luke is considering a scum bus plan, then maybe he is just scum" does not feel like the most genuine take for you to have.

[Lukewarm]

Like, STD left day 1 as the number 1 suspect for over half the lobby. So the scum team setting up for a STD bus seems very much in the realm of possibility. Like if they thought std was going down today no matter what, they would want to leave his partner looking as good on the flip as possible, and cross voting out the gate is a way to do that.

I don't think that your crossvote is scum indicative for you - but I don't think that it should hard clear you from my PoV either, and I find it suspicious that you are trying to frame it like it should.

[Lukewarm]

Warning. Wall incoming

[Lukewarm]

To be clear, I am suspicious of Pav independently of STD - He was riding in null reads for most of Day 1, but I after a re-read during the night, and also the start of today, he has moved lower.

I feel like he has been dancing around me in a weird way all game for some reason. It feels almost like he is actively avoiding actually giving me a read.

Spoiler: All serious times Pav has talked about me before this STD/Pav partner possibility discussion

Luke is sharp so I'm gonna have my eye on him but I have zero "read" yet. If he's mafia, I'm skurrd.

Luke - not sure yet.

Luke you buying Cyrus's toaster leavings then?

Actually

VOTE: strange

Haschel wagon averted with this vote

There is a *lot* of Cyrus/Luke interaction which is basically white noise to me. I don't think there is anything else to be learned from Cyrus, or interactions with him, until our next "day". It is somewhat interesting that Luke seems to agree with this but continues to engage. Making this actually the first time Luke has pinged me in a distinctly scummy way.

913 looks good for Luke but is not conclusive, unless I'm misunderstanding mechanics.

Our last game together, I managed to get a lot of town reads, and then successfully led back to back scum eliminations day 1 and day 2. I could see scum!pav coming into this game worried about me accumulating town reads based off of that experience. (Little does he know, that was just a way above average showing - I only have like a 50% win rate lol).

[Lukewarm]

Then, I was also suspicious of how he danced around the voting list he made at the start of the day. Like, he made the list, put it out there, and offered absolutely no analysis on it in post 914. Literally just drops the list, and says "draw your own conclusions."

And then, when no one really did, he then tried to steer me back to the list - still without giving any of his own thoughts, but pushing me to do it first.

Spoiler:

Well since you and I are here early, Luke, any thoughts on the votes from yesterday? I have some inklings but I'm curious if I'm overthinking and reading too much into it

It was not until after even that did not work, that he finally pointed somethings out himself. He found Zyla, Haschel, and Azeru all suspicious for their voting patterns. -- But once I responded however, he adjusted his own views to match exactly with mine.

I explained why I was not suspicious of Zyla's voting pattern, and then he is no longer suspicious of it. I said I town read Azeru, and he dropped that suspicion as well. I said that I was still somewhat suspicious of Haschel, and well:

Given the points we've already made this morning, I find the Haschel vote more interesting.

This exchange pings me for 2 reasons:

First, it felt like he was trying to get the town to come up with suspicions first, so he could agree and tag along onto a wagon - Like he positioned himself to be able to shout "that is exactly what I was thinking" if anyone voiced a concern in regards to any of [Zyla, Azeru, Haschel], BUT he did not want to be the first one to say it. Like he was pointing people in that direction, but did not want to appear like he was leading a push, if a push formed on any of them.

Secondly: if he was being truthful about his read on me before this, that I am somehow completely unknowable, and a solidly null read that he is scared of the possibility of me being scum, then why would he then immediately change his angle to match mine? If he is cautious of me, shouldn't he be cautious of my logic in regards to [Zyla, Azeru, Haschel]? This further backs up my first point too. Like, he was just fishing for someone to agree with to begin with, and I just happened to be the one on at the time.

[Lukewarm]

And finally, this whole exchange over the possibility that the scum team is [std, pav]

If I am right that he has been actively avoiding giving me a read, then he has been looking for a reason to scum read me, and he thought he found one, and jumped on it.

Spoiler:

I mean, I could see sussing him or me, but putting us on a team together is a heck of a call.

In fact, it's the first thing Luke has done in this game that has pinged me as particularly scummy. And that's not an OMGUS, that is "I actually don't understand the logic that tells you STD and me could be teamed up."
{snip}
Luke I continue to find impossible to read. He could be the towniest town or the scummiest scum, and neither would surprise me, because his posts are basically always measured and analytical and hard to argue with. I *hope* he's on our side, but -- see above -- his logic putting me on a team with STD escapes me and feels out of character, so I have to lean him into the scum side. Then again, Haschel seems to be his 2nd scum read, and I agree with that, so...

And his 1058 response to my 1055-1057 certainly does not help.

Spoiler:

In fact, it's the first thing Luke has done in this game that has pinged me as particularly scummy.

{snip}
his logic putting me on a team with STD escapes me and feels out of character, so I have to lean him into the scum side. Then again, Haschel seems to be his 2nd scum read, and I agree with that, so...

And this take coming from you pings me pretty hard...

Like "If luke is considering a scum bus plan, then maybe he is just scum" does not feel like the most genuine take for you to have.

Honestly Luke, I have been feeling you as town all the way in this game, because I agree with just about everything you post. But I then find myself second-guessing why I read you that way, because I don't like it when I agree with somebody 100%. So I've been eyes-up for anything scummy from you in the meantime. Basically, I like to follow my gut, and you throw my gut way off. So maybe I'm wrong in how I interpreted this read from you. I just happen to know that your scumread of me is wrong. (Which is easy enough to say, I'll grant, but I'm saying it.)

At any rate, a couple posts on from that one, I concede that you're -- if not 100%, then certainly 75%, to use meaningless numbers -- cleared by big C's check on you. So I must put you in the "almost certainly town" column for now and quit beefing with you.

Like, STD left day 1 as the number 1 suspect for over half the lobby. So the scum team setting up for a STD bus seems very much in the realm of possibility. Like if they thought std was going down today no matter what, they would want to leave his partner looking as good on the flip as possible, and cross voting out the gate is a way to do that.

I don't think that your crossvote is scum indicative for you - but I don't think that it should hard clear you from my PoV either, and I find it suspicious that you are trying to frame it like it should.

I wouldn't say it should clear me; that would be asking too much. From where I stood, though, it seemed like you were viewing it as a bus, and that's what I took issue with.

First he claims to have had me as "town all the way in this game" despite never once giving me a town read or even saying that any thing I have done all game is townie.

I also find the "I don't like it when I agree with somebody 100%" line suspicious, given we just talked about [Zyla, Azeru, and HC] - and he had found all 3 of their voting patterns suspicious, I tr Zyla and Azeru, and suddenly her also found HC the most interesting one - so at least in that instance, we agreed 100% because he changed his take to match mine.

And finally, "I concede that you're -- if not 100%, then certainly 75%, to use meaningless numbers -- cleared by big C's check on you. So I must put you in the "almost certainly town" column for now and quit beefing with you." This is such a change in direction. Both from him just saying I was a scum lean in 1040, and him just saying that the clear check was "not conclusive" in 988 - That is gave me whip lash. -- Like he regretted poking me in the first place, and is trying to walk it back

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Pav

[Lukewarm]

Hey luke quick question,

So it seems

almost

everyone has been pushing STD here so shouldnt u be Tring them a bit because u said this(in 690) when strange was getting pushed by everyone?

690 had nothing to do with people scum reading strange? - STD is an SE, and regardless, he does not look completely aimless, and that was my point in 690. Strange was approaching being at e-1 a bit poorly and aimlessly, and I thought that if they had a partner, they would have someone giving them pointers on how to avoid that.

[Lukewarm]

Well, uh, that changes things.

@Azeru, reading through 1075, it seems like you assumed I knew that I had been jailed, but I had no idea. I am a VT, and VTs are not told that they were jailed/role blocked, because they don't have any actions that failed.

I guess that this means I was the NK target, and you saved me.

I am going to look and see who I think was the most likely to try and kill me, and see if I can guess what the scum team was doing for us to end up here.

I understand why you are suspicious of me given what you know - but please don't speed elim me. I at least want enough time to see if I can put a solve out there, to try and help you guys after I am gone

[Lukewarm]

One thought that crossed my mind just now, is whether or not the scum team would know if they were jailed or if their target were jailed at the start of the day?

Like, if they tried to kill me, and then the day started with me alive, would they get a "your target was protected" or conversely if a mafia were jailed, would they get a "your nk was blocked" and since they did not get that message, they would automatically know that I was blocked?

I think I am going to PM the mod for clarification on this, because that would have made a big difference in how they handled start of day I think.

[Lukewarm]

Well, uh, that changes things.

@Azeru, reading through 1075, it seems like you assumed I knew that I had been jailed, but I had no idea. I am a VT, and VTs are not told that they were jailed/role blocked, because they don't have any actions that failed.

I guess that this means I was the NK target, and you saved me.

I am going to look and see who I think was the most likely to try and kill me, and see if I can guess what the scum team was doing for us to end up here.

I understand why you are suspicious of me given what you know - but please don't speed elim me. I at least want enough time to see if I can put a solve out there, to try and help you guys after I am gone

this is a flat out lie.

Is a VT being targeted by the Jailkeeper get notified? If I was supposed to be told, then it was a mod error. I will ask Ffery this too

[Lukewarm]

I am trying to come up with all of the possibilities where we end up with both Azeru claiming they jailkept me, Cyrus claiming they got a Tracker result, and there not being a NK with knowing that I am a vanilla townie. - Even if you don't believe me now, I still want to put it in the thread for everyone to look at after I flip.

[Lukewarm]

Even if we are killing me today, there is no reason to rush it. We have over 5 days left on our countdown. I just got a big piece of new info to try, and I just want enough time to see if I can come up with a solve to help everyone else before I go.

[Lukewarm]

I have gotten clarification. A VT will not be told if they are jailkept OR if they were roleblocked, AND the scum team would not be notified why their NK did not go through, so they would now know if they were jailkept or if their target was jailkept.

After I flip today, we are going to be in MElo tomrrow, so tomorrow, please look back at what I said and really, really take your time before you vote. IF you get it wrong tomorrow, we lose.

Here are the possibilities from my PoV, from least likely to most likely:

- Azeru is lying about being a jailkeeper

- I don't think that this one is very likely? I had Azeru pegged as town before this claim, plus this is fairly bad play for the scum team to make. Like it could kill me today, and gets both scum to Melo tomorrow, but I still think that this is the least likely scenario I have come up with. Mainly because the real PRs would be able to counter claim, and there is no guarantee that scum!Azeru could even push me through today. If anyone can counter claim Azeru or Cyrus, now is the time to do it. If you are ANY pr, you should out yourself now. If no one counter claims by the end of the day, I would suggest everyone believe Azeru even after seeing my VT flip - don't let that change your opinion.

- Azeru is telling the truth about being the Jailkeeper, but Cyrus is lying about being the tracker.

- If it were any other player who claimed Tracker day 1, I don't think I would really consider this, but looking at Cyrus's iso, it is hard to put anything past him... So, maybe consider this one, but I still think that it is less likely right now then my final theory. This would mean that we are in column c, row 2, and Cyrus decided to gambit with a fake claim out of the gate.

- Azeru and Cyrus are both telling the truth, and the scum team decided that Cyrus's posting style was detrimental enough to the town to ignore him

- I think that this is probably the world that we live in. Cyrus's posts have been so chaotic, and so anti-town, that I would not be surprised if the scum team decided to let him live. My biggest question here, is "if he is telling the truth, why did cyrus not get RB'ed?"

My best guesses are:
-They thought the jailkeeper was going to be protecting Cyrus, so they did not think he would be getting a result anyways
-They knew that Cyrus was going to track me (I think that he made it pretty obvious tbh), and since they were killing me, his result would not matter
-They thought I was the jailkeeper, so they both RB'ed me AND NK'ed me to make sure that the kill went through. That is the only safe way to kill a Jailkeeper, because it stops the jailkeeper from being able to save themselves if there happens to be a cross target between Mafia and the jailkeeper.

[Lukewarm]

TL;DR : Unless someone counter claims today, everyone should treat Azeru as 100% confirmed Jailkeeper even after I flip VT. You should

probably

trust Cyrus's claim, but it is hard for me to say that with 100% confidence because... well its Cyrus. Finally, absolutely no one should believe any PR claims that happen tomorrow. If someone really is a PR, they would step in right now, not wait for us to be in MElo.

[Lukewarm]

I want to give this game another read, assuming we are in 2A, and try to leave my final solve / reads - but it is getting late. I will do that tomorrow - please don't hammer me before I get that out there.

[Lukewarm]

Insomnia strikes, so I am just going to get my final reads out of the way now.

Hockey, Zyla, and Azeru are all lock town in my eyes. Trust that, and I think that you guys might have a chance. Azeru will probably die tonight, but tomorrow in MElo should start with a Zyla/Hockey Town block.

I would normally suggest doing a No Elimination vote in Melo, to push the decision off to Elo - But, if you guys do that, realize that the scum team will 100% leave cyrus alive, and I don't really want to bet the game on to be 100% in Cyrus's hands.

@Zyla and Hockey, if you guys don't currently mutually town read each other, at least consider my read here. Assuming you guys shoot right in the first night of MElo, which ever of Zyla/Hockey survives the following night should be the town leader moving for the last night.

GTH, the scum team is still [STD, Pav] imo. Finding out that we have a jailkeeper who saved me has only strengthened that read. It now makes Way More sense for the two of them to come out of the gate bussing one another. If they knew that there was a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper had targeted the scum who tried to kill me, then yeah, they needed to start the day off working as hard as they could to make sure that they were not seen as partners. Scum are paranoid, and would have seen this day as a ticking time bomb until the jailkeeper outed one of them.

I also find it interesting looking at STD's read of Pav from Day 1 to Day 2

Spoiler:

Town
Azeru
Pav
Cyrus

Null (town lean)
Luke
Zyla

Null (scum lean)
Haschel

Scum
Strange
Hockeyfan

i like the wagon composition on strangematter

VOTE: StrangeMatter E-1

pav has some iioa posts like his vote tracker but has kept some of his thoughts close to the vest here. of the three i find him the scummiest. I wish he would talk a little more as well, he could be lurky scum unsure of what to say. ---i'm going to try VOTE: Pavowski for now

Like Pav went from his 2nd highest Town Read, not lean, all the way down to his scummiest scum read. That looks to me like a scum team that is panicking over the jailkeeper save, and are suddenly trying to distance pretty hard.

So final read to leave for MElo:
Azeru is dying tonight
Hockey and Zyla are lock town.
Cyrus and HC are possible, and you should consider all possibilities in Elo, but
GTH, the scum team is STD and Pav

[Lukewarm]

... I don't know what cyrus is talking about in 1115 - I already explained the scenarios where both Azeru and Cyrus are both telling the truth in 1105. I assume he is not actually reading my posts because he is fully convinced I am scum now.

@Cyrus, I am really glad this is happening now instead of at Melo, because I actually would have to convince you I am town. I am almost certainly going to flip today and you will see that I am telling the truth. All I am asking is that tomorrow you look back to 1105 and 1114, and please be

really

careful with your vote. don't put anyone at e-2 unless you are really sure, because a quick hammer tomorrow will mean a scum win.

[Lukewarm]

I've gotten my reads out there, I don't mind a hammer anymore, and I should always be the elim today.

Like, even if you think I might be town, I should still flip today. At this point, if I were to live through the day, the scum team will keep me alive, and I will be the easiest person to push out at elo, and I would rather not lose the game over a miselim on me then.

Just look back at my reads tomorrow

[Lukewarm]

... Yes, town would self hammer when there is at least 1 player who has not posted at all since Azeru outed the information...

How are you supposed to analyze Herchel's response if he has not even posted yet? Self hammering now, gives frees him of any responsibility to respond to this, and lets him skip straight to responding to my flip.

If I still have not been hammered after Herchel has joined the conversation, then I will think about self hammering, but right now it would just deny town information to analyze in Melo tomorrow.

[Lukewarm]

I just wanna say that Luke almost legit hurt my feelings on d2 when you turned that wall on me. To the point where it kinda made me start playing things closer to the vest, I think.

Oh....
I'm sorry :/

I mean, I was trying to frame you, but I never meant for it to hurt your feeling or anything. I made comments on that the scum team would be pushing their partner hard, right after I pushed you really hard.

I actually told STD that the path to victory was likely:
Day 3: Elim Zyla or Hockey
Day 4: Elim Pav.

HC actually a bit of a back up plan. Basically exactly what you said here:

He has to know anything he says will be measured and turned inside out. But that brings me back to Haschel, whom he mostly steers away from in those final posts. That feels tactical.

I was pretty sure that one of Zyla or Hockey had to be going down Day 3, because I had pocketed them hard enough that they both defended me at various points, and I also defended them. But for day 4, I tried to set it up so that "if they think I was scum reading/pushing my partner, then they will miselim Pav" but, on the other hand "if they think I would avoid scum reading my partner, they will miselim HC" I tried to situate my real partner kind of in the middle of that dichotomy

[Lukewarm]

gg guys

I think Luke did a great job, he came up with most of the ideas as evidenced by the mafia PT.

I'm surprised we pulled it off, we got really wrecked by the jailkeeper

, but i think luke's push on me D2 really helped.

Thanks fferyllt!

This. 100% this. Azeru nearly singlehandedly won the game for town. I was pretty sure we lost as soon as Day 2 started

What did helped us turn it around was that the very first post of Day 2 was Cyrus claiming that I did not move. -- Scum normally do not know if they were the target of the jailkeeper, or if their NK target was. But as soon as I saw that, I immediately knew exactly how both of the PRs had targeted, which helped me have a better plan for Day 2.

But even then, it was an uphill battle from the moment Azeru targeted me

[Lukewarm]

Night Actions

Night 1:

Azeru Jails Lukewarm - succeeds
cyrus62 tracks Lukewarm - succeeds. Lukewarm goes nowhere

Night 2:

Azeru jails Zyla -- succeeds
cyrus62 tracks Zyla -- succeeds (Zyla went nowhere)

Azeru and Cyrus thinking the same way both days lol

[Lukewarm]

gg guys

I think Luke did a great job,

You did a great job too. You got put into a 1v6, and you managed to pull that off.

Good job man

[Lukewarm]

Really wish I could’ve gotten Town off me, but oh well.

It is hard. Once people start to doubt you, they often start looking at you more closely, which leads to them finding things to nitpick over, and doubt you even more. It is often really hard to pull it back, once a few people are suspicious -- especially in your first game.

I think you did pretty good overall, I mean you went down voting for STD day 1

[Lukewarm]

Once again, thank you all for playing!

Thanks for modding

[Lukewarm]

I forgot to give all of you props for this! I can't remember when (or if!) last I've modded a newbie game that didn't require a single replacement.

Good onya!

This does make for a much better game !!

(I have seen as many as 6 replacements by the end of Day 1 in Newbie games )

[Lukewarm]

I did not think that you would like my thoughts, so I withheld them