Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[Grimgroove]

Welcome back everyone, let's get this started again!

Candillan

I'm thinking one of the maffia from the previous game will be one again, and since it's not me, it must be him.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Candillan

[Grimgroove]

Hi everybody. Sorry for brutally crashing the last game into the ground!

Still don't know what happened there. Will I ever?

[Grimgroove]

sigh
this already
Syryana I am town this time though ^_^

The question is, are you?

Yup.

VOTE: Syryana
A "yes" would have been more convincing than a "yup".

[Grimgroove]

Wow, well spotted by Crand though, can't believe we missed that ourselves during the game.

sigh
this already
Syryana I am town this time though ^_^

The question is, are you?

Yup.

VOTE: Syryana
A "yes" would have been more convincing than a "yup".

Are you for real?

What do you mean, 'for real'? Don't you agree? A "yup" shows half-heartedness, where a "yes" would have shown more commitment to what you are saying.


@Candillan: because it keeps things moving. A single static random vote doesn't do it for me, I prefer to move it around for minor reasons and see where that takes me.

[Grimgroove]

Hi everybody. Sorry for brutally crashing the last game into the ground!

VOTE: Ravenpaw

Calling me darling gives me bad vibes.

Where did she call you darling?

[Grimgroove]

I can't see this anywhere, neither here or in the "title pending"-game.

Are you referring to your scumQT conversation and have we got a nice scumslip on our hands?

Let's see!

VOTE: Crandaja

(out of RVS)

[Grimgroove]

My mistake, but I only looked at the last couple of posts by Ravenpaw, which is only sensible.
I feel my point still stands.
Why on earth would Crandaja be referring to a word in a post made 12 days ago? Why would that kind of thing stick and why would bad vibes from that post be carried over to a new game?
He didn't mention it gave him bad vibes back then, why now?
I would also prefer it if you would let Crandaja answer that question this time around. Don't see why you're so eager jumping to his defense.

[Grimgroove]

I asked if you were for real because I couldn't tell if you were serious or trolling. And I'm not entirely sure what planet you're from, but on mine, yup means yes.

I was only half serious. But it's a fact that I don't like the word "yup", and I don't consider it the same as "yes".
Yes is straightfoward, the result of years of communication turning into custom, a best practice when it comes to answering affirmatively.
Yup is the bastard form of yes, used when trying to portray an image of cool and carelessness. A seemingly off-hand answer, but just that fact makes it blatantly not offhand. When used in speech it's is easily mumbled, whereas a yes is unmumblable.
It's called a "yes or no"-question for a reason, and not a "yup and nah-question".

I'm not a native speaker, this is true. But I do assure you I come from the planet Earth and will not be using telepathy in order to win this game.

[Grimgroove]

Basically, Edos accidentally put the link to the Scum QT in the role PM examples. Crand saw them, and knew we were scum. He told Edos about this, and then asked to be replaced because he can't scumhunt when he knows who the scum are. Edos posted saying that Crand was being replaced because of the debacle, which ended up unintentionally confirming his slot as town. Because of that, Edos figured it would be better to just restart the game.

...At least that's what I think happened.

Pedit:

Grim, why are you re-RVSing?

Syryana, you too. Unless you believe that your vote on me was a legitimate vote.

That's pretty much what happened.

I will answer your question to me in a bit.

Why not answer it right away? You even took your time exploring the other topic for the word "darling".

And about me being opportunistic, I don't think that's really an argument. I saw a possible scumslip, let my enthousiasm get me carried away and indeed saw an opportunity to lynch scum. Maybe it's opportunistic yes, but that kind of opportunism doesn't make me scum.

[Grimgroove]

My mistake, but I only looked at the last couple of posts by Ravenpaw, which is only sensible.
I feel my point still stands.
Why on earth would Crandaja be referring to a word in a post made 12 days ago? Why would that kind of thing stick and why would bad vibes from that post be carried over to a new game?
He didn't mention it gave him bad vibes back then, why now?
I would also prefer it if you would let Crandaja answer that question this time around. Don't see why you're so eager jumping to his defense.

I'm not so much defending Crand as attacking you. It raises my suspicions when someone that played the way you did last game (i.e. made great arguments and generally obvtowned the slot) starts shooting off half-cocked and making arguments like these (e.g. "darling, was that a SCUMSLIP?!" or "I don't like the word yup, you must be scum").

At this stage of the game you can't seriously expect more than that? There is nothing to work with in order to roll out solid arguments, just RVS'ing and some random comments that have got little to do with the game. How can I obvtown after 1 page? How can you expect me to make a great case against someone who posted once?
And I did the exact same thing in the beginning of the last game, calling RachMarie out on a "silly thing" like complaining to the mod about the colour he uses. You didn't have a problem with it then, so somehow I feel my role in the previous game has more to do with your suspicions than this one.
And even though I realize it's probably not in my benefit to refer to the last game and say that I play the same way, but I expect I will play the same way. The main reason I like to play these games is to hunt for scummy behavior. It's true that it's easier and more rewarding as town, but even as scum that's what I enjoy doing.

Why not answer it right away? You even took your time exploring the other topic for the word "darling".

And about me being opportunistic, I don't think that's really an argument. I saw a possible scumslip, let my enthousiasm get me carried away and indeed saw an opportunity to lynch scum. Maybe it's opportunistic yes, but that kind of opportunism doesn't make me scum.

I didn't answer it because my re-RVS post/vote on you was intended to garner a reaction from you. I hadn't as yet gotten it, so I refused to answer Cand at that time. What I was looking for: if you were serious I figured it was an opportunistic attack to paint me as scummy early, since at the end of last game you admitted I'm one of the biggest obstacles to your scum wincon.

I called you the hardest one to play against as scum, mainly because it was hard to portray you as scummy and because you defended yourself very well. given that opinion of you, why would I, as scum, try to attack you after all with mainly semantic differences between "yes" and "yup"? This argument does not compute.

As for taking the time to look in the other thread, you directly said there was no mention of it in this thread or title pending. I decided to verify that statement. Turns out it was a lie and I nailed you for it.

It wasn't a lie, it was an honest mistake. I only checked this topic, and for the other topic I just checked the comments after the game was over. I didn't take into account that it might be possible Crandaja would be referring to something from almost two weeks ago. I guess you have more efficient ways of browsing through a thread, but I wasn't planning to go to page 7 of 15 in order to find what Crandaja was referring to.

And it is scummily opportunistic, because from my POV you seized on a silly thing, call it a scumslip, and voted Crand. Scum like mislynches.

Like I said before, nothing more to go on than silly things at this stage. But at the same time, when it comes to silly things, I thought this was actually quite interesting to delve further into. Seeing how I didn't find the "darling" in the other topic, my reasoning of this silly thing actually being a scumslip is not as farfetched as you make it to be.

My main beef with you right now is that in the last game you obvtowned like crazy; excellent logic, walls of well reasoned arguments, good reads. This game, you're hopping all over everywhere, attacking me, attacking Crand; it's shooting from the hip playstyle. I can't decide if you're this different because it's your town play or if you've drawn scum again and you're breaking from your own playstyle so as not to get caught.

The answer is: neither. I'm intending to play the same way as I did before, even though I'm town this time. And I feel that I do. I hop around looking for reactions, that's what RVS is to me, instead of making a random vote and leaving it there until something falls out of the sky.

[Grimgroove]

For those pushing Grims wagon do you have anything else besides the fact he was scumz in the aborted game? cause we rerolled and that is not good enough he has a higher chance of being town than scum since each roll for a game is independent of each other.

Who were you talking to here? I didn't see anyone pushing my wagon, just some RVS-votes and Syryana keeping a close eye on me.

[Grimgroove]

My mistake, but I only looked at the last couple of posts by Ravenpaw, which is only sensible.
I feel my point still stands.
Why on earth would Crandaja be referring to a word in a post made 12 days ago? Why would that kind of thing stick and why would bad vibes from that post be carried over to a new game?
He didn't mention it gave him bad vibes back then, why now?
I would also prefer it if you would let Crandaja answer that question this time around. Don't see why you're so eager jumping to his defense.

I have some problems with this. You ask where she called me darling, then 25 minutes later you say you can't see it in Title Pending. ISO button makes it really easy to see all of Raven's posts and one of the only interactions we had between one another was the one where she called me darling. Its really not hard to find if you looked in that thread (which you said yourself you did) especially not in 25 minutes.

You don't seriously think I spent those 25 minutes entirely to searching for what you were referring to? Do you think that if I would have in fact found it, that I would lie about it and hope that nobody would notice? I already explained why I did not find it, even though you seem to think that is "flawed".

I think your first statement that its only sensible to check the last few messages is flawed. If you think its not important to check the thread than it wouldn't have been so important for you to not find it there. Without doing the search how would you know if she said it or not? Why do you assume its from the scum QT without reading the whole thread?

The disagreement lies in the first part. I don't think it's flawed. I find it very odd you would be referring to something (a single word) from 12 days ago from a previous game. Like I said before, I did check the thread, but was only looking at the post game discussion, meaning I didn't make it to page 7. Obviously I should have been more thorough and I jumped to conclusions, but there was no bad intent. Just had my assumptions (that you would be referring to something more recent) wrong so to speak.

When I was doing an RVS at the start of this game i didn't want to vote Grim right away to avoid getting him too close to L-1 without any discussion. I saw Ravenpaw's post and decided to vote her as my RVS. It was the only thing I really remember about her from last game.

I can live with that explanation, but if either of you would happen to flip scum I'll definitely remember this passage.

[Grimgroove]

I skimmed quickly; the giant walls of text are a big clue.

Did you get your reading done by now?

VOTE: LnGrrrR

Thanks to the cancellation of the previous game I think I have some kind of a meta from most of you, and so far LnGrrrR seems to be the most different for some reason. He seems a lot less involved.

[Grimgroove]

I don't like my "yes vs yup"-thing being called

stupid

several times now, but I guess that given the opinion of the majority, it was. I still don't like "yups" and I never will, but maybe we're from a different generation.
Anyway, regardless of this, even if it was stupid, there's only so many ways of getting out of an RVS asap, and I'm still glad we made it out relatively fast, even with half of the people not participating.

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove - His RVS was Candillan. He then started a very stupid "yes vs. yup" discussion. If my theory is right, it could be planned by those two in advance.

You have a theory: Grim and I are scum together. However, in reference to this point, you are making the evidence fit the case, rather than making the case fit the evidence. I agree with you that the "yes vs. yup" argument was extremely stupid, but does the exchange between Grim and myself sound forced and planned? What about that exchange makes you think he and I are scum together?

The argue itself doesn't sound planned, but you could plan that you'll argue about something without planning the details.

Then how is our argument different from any other argument that's been had here? Why do you get the impression our argument is planned and others are not?

Candillan - He points out in post 33 how

Syryana

's explaining

Grimgroove

is a scum and then voting

Crand

is odd. I think it's another evidence of Syryana and Grimgroove both being scums. I hope I'm not tunneling here. Anyway, to me Candillan lean town right now.

You are leaning town on Candillan because he pointed out the oddity in my post. Yet in the same post, he says he's leaning town on me for it. Why do you think that is? Also, did you see my reasoning near the bottom of that post as to why I'm voting Crand over Grim?

I don't know why he's leaning town on you. Maybe he needs to answer to that question.

He did, he called it a gutread in post 44

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove is a bit iffy to me. (...) but the fact he said he checked the old game but was proven that he didn't really does seem a wee bit suspect to me.

You make it sound as if I didn't check the old game. Why?

[Grimgroove]

I revise my opinion on LnGrrrR after his last post.

UNVOTE:

[Grimgroove]

I think Grimgroove's point about starting off the other game on an equally silly charge (the color thing) has merit.

Syryana makes a good point above about Crandaja's defensiveness.

Homer, are you planning on reading the other game?

I think Candillans meta is to start every game with a scummy statement. I don't like the "Oh no not a wagon again on me for a scummy RVS", because it tends to disarm thoughts of actual scumminess. Additionally, in ISO he looks fishy: he votes Crand, then unvotes three posts later because he doesn't always want to be the third vote on a wagon. Seems very self conscious about his votes, and if he thought it was good to put pressure on Crand, why take it off? If he is worried about L-2, he could just ask for no claims at this time.

Also, Candillan hasn't scumhunted at all. Just look at his ISO, no challenges, a /barn here or there...

VOTE: Candillan

I revise my opinion on LnGrrrR after his last post.

UNVOTE:

What made you change your opinion?

The quote above made me change my opinion. The main reason why I thought LnGrrrR was fishy (as I pointed out) was because he seemed a lot less involved: a silly RVS-vote after the RVS-stage, and a promise to read through everything (two or three pages I think at the time), but taking ages to do so.
This quote and his case against Candillan reminds me of the townie LnGrrrR we all know from "Title Pending" more.
And I'm liking his case on Candillan. I don't think it's that bad. Will IC Candillan myself later today, but at first sight I agree with LnGrrrr's arguments completely.

[Grimgroove]

Sigh
I don't know
I guess we wait for someone to scumslip et al.

Random Question Time!
1. What do you guys prefer to play as? Scum or Town?
2. You're cop with a guilty. Do you claim immediately, or wait it out?
3. Do you tend to play aggressively, or more passively?

After Syryana's advice in the last game, I don't think it's a good idea to answer any of those questions. Doesn't that lead us into WIFOM automatically?
Also, you were the one saying meta-arguments are bullshit. All these questions are asking about meta. What's the added value of these questions according to you?

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove is a bit iffy to me. (...) but the fact he said he checked the old game but was proven that he didn't really does seem a wee bit suspect to me.

You make it sound as if I didn't check the old game. Why?

Because apparently you only looked at my last few posts (which would've been post-game comments, not actual game play).

Also, this is why I feel so iffy about it:

I can't see this anywhere, neither here or in the "title pending"-game.

That above sentence is troubling me because of the word "anywhere". You implied doing a thorough search when you said that, but your later story of only looking at my last few posts doesn't correlate with that.

It's a fair argument, but when it comes to that "case" I feel I've already told you everything I could tell you about it in post 65. I didn't mean to make said implication, but understand why it would come off that way. But let's say I did mean to imply it. What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding?

[Grimgroove]

So I IC'd Candillan for today, the most active player in ammount of posts, so he gives you most to work with. Only thing I'll be able to do before the weekend I'm afraid. All in all I'd have to agree with LnGrrrR's case against him. Maybe not in LnGrrrR's first post, which was mainly a good thing because it showed more involvement from LnGrrrR again, but in the discussion following it he raised some good points. What I mainly don't like is that Candillan refuses any meta-arguments to be used again him, but in a devious way tries to use that meta to his advantage several times (which I'll try to show here). Claiming you consciously play differently every game so that your meta is useless is actually a meta-argument in itself. MAybe I should clarify further, but I think claiming you have "no meta", is making a statement about your meta and trying to use it as an argument in your advantage. I find it worrysome that Candillan is so involved with his meta, definitely for someone who claims to not have one.

I agree that it's kinda odd that he would bring that up of all things, but that's the only time, if I recall correctly, that Raven ever adressed Crand.

I do agree with Syryana that your vote on him did seem fairly opportunistic, though.

Also, that's not jumping to his defense, that's simply stating a fact. There's a difference.

What is the "if I recall correctly"-bit supposed to mean? How would you recall something like that? Granted, there wasn't much activity going on in "Title Pending", but to assume you remember all people's interactions seems strange, and pretending to do so seems unnaturally thoughtful.

Alright, that's fine then.

Could you give me an example of when re-RVSing would not be fine?

The Great Shaboostein...
That has a nice ring to it.

I'd give you more slack if you hadn't posted in the QT rather than here. >_>

How have you not gave Shaboostein a lot of slack? all you did was call his name a couple of times. Careful bussing?

Bahahahahahahano
The truth is that I have an aura of scumminess around me that makes me an easy wagon for scum to hop on and town to follow.
Meanwhile, you're commenting on my meta when I told you that I hate meta arguments. You're speaking in hypotheticals as to what I'd do, and I don't like that.

For the record, I am assembling reads. I currently read you and Crand as scummy.

Your push on me based on a meta argument doesn't make sense. Also, that isn't my scum meta, if you were to look at the last game. I don't like your case, and it seems as if you're pushing on me to make yourself seem active.

I'm not so vote-happy because then it gives my votes less impact when they're actually laid down. I'm not afraid of putting someone to L-2 or whatever, that was purely coincidence.

All in all, this case is bad, and you should feel bad.

VOTE: LnGrrrR
Other posts coming in a minute.

Surprised nobody called him out on this before, but isn't this the most blatant OMGUS in the game(s) so far? LnGrrrR had never even been mentioned by Candillan before this, and now he's suddenly on his scum-reads, based on LngRrrR using meta for a case. Coming out of a game with all of us in it that got cancelled, I think it's only natural to do so. Syryana did the same with me, I did the same with LnGrrrR. Yet Syryana is Candillan's town read.

'twas a joke.

Urgh. I like a good laugh, but people blaming having said weird things on "joking" are always scummy in my book.

Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)

"I wasn't known to do that often" = meta-argument. And to be perfectly honest, I never associated you with someone who doesn't like voting or changing votes all the time. Anyway, I don't like the argument in the quote above, hard to put my finger on it but the logical conclusion that Crandaja took your vote seriously (did he?) because of your meta (did he?) doesn't really add up. And even if it does, it goes to show that meta IS useful and you are willing to use it in your gaming strategy.

Because I don't see Raven as scummy? Also, it's bad practice to accuse your buddy of being scum.

Could you clarify the second part of that statement? Who would be the buddy and who would be doing the accusing in this case?

[Grimgroove]

Awaiting Candillan's reply, in the meanwhile

VOTE: shaboostein

A push for activity, got no read on him. Same for RachMarie.

[Grimgroove]

As per usual:

@Mod: V/LA until Sunday evening

[Grimgroove]

Grim I still get a bad feeling from. His deduction seems to be erratic and a lot different from last game. I don't really get what he's trying to do.

I don't like how you're being so insistant on this. This constant repetition is not going to change what I already have said about it. I have already explained what I was trying to do: find scum. I thought I saw a scumslip and acted on it. I was wrong, but as I asked Ravenpaw before (which she left unanswered): What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding? An easy lynch? How would that even work? If Syryana hadn't found it, you yourself would still have been in the position to point out my mistake, as you already knew what you were referring to. As scum I would know for a fact that this wouldn't be a scumslip and that it would be an easily deflected attack. Then why would I do it? The fact that I actually believed in my argument is the only reason why I brought it up and thought it could have a chance of success. And how could I believe in it in the position of being scum myself?

I STILL find your RVS-vote very odd, and though my initial reason may have been wrong (scumslip referring to a QT-post), the secondary reason why it's odd (reference to a historical post ) is almost as compelling. It literally seemed to have come falling out of the sky, and also the way you explained it makes it sound like it did, but I have difficulties believing it.

Your OMGUS-tunnelling isn't making me feel very good about you. Still have to read through the topic more in depth before possibly changing my vote.

[Grimgroove]

I adressed this in my previous post. My meta is anti-meta, as I am consciously playing differently every game. Relying on meta won't be helpful, and I won't take it seriously. I used myself as an example, but I believe that meta arguments in general are total garbage.

How do you consider your playstyle here different from the one in the Title Pending game. If it's conscious, you should be able to explain the differences you have applied when this topic opened.
What variables do you see when it comes to meta? I mean, maybe you could change some obvious things, like amount of posts and their length, votehopping or not, but wouldn't you agree that when it comes to reacting to what other people say in quite constant?
And even if it is useless in your case, why does that make it useless in any other case? I see in your latest conversation you're discussing my meta from Title Pending quite in depth. Why bother if it doesn't mean anything?
By the way, what my meta is concerned, I think I already said this before: I'll be playing the same way as before. As long as I have the time to do so, I will always play like this, scum or town. But these are just the big lines. I'm not sure if unconciously, there could be some differences in the way I post or put up argumentations. But that's mainly your job to find out about.

Alright, that's fine then.

Could you give me an example of when re-RVSing would not be fine?

Nope, I can't think of any.

Why did you ask about my re-RVS? How does it fit in with the scumhunt?

I also adressed this in my last post. It isn't bussing, it's giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not gonna go super-offensive on him when he says that he's gonna post. I'm giving him air to breathe. It's a friendly game, either way. Why am I not allowed to be friendly with other players?

This has got nothing to do with friendliness. Why bring up such an emotional argument? I don't think shaboostein would start crying himself to sleep at night just because you'd vote him. I find the interchange between the two of you very odd. An associative tell is what I see.

Yeah, it's OMGUS. Sue me.

My posting was for pressure, as everything else I've been doing has been. Reaction testing is a powerful thing, Grim. It helps you assemble reads.

I am seriously trying to gather reads, but I've been terrible at it this time around. I do seriously see Homer and Syryana as townie, though. I was leaning town on you, but your jumping on this case is making me doubt that somewhat. It seems a wee bit too convenient.

So anyone who's been on your case automatically no longer leans town. That's a whole lot of OMGUS right there, and yes, I think you should be sued for it. LnGrrrR put forward some reasonable arguments against you, yet instead of seeing the merit in them you simply call his attack on you scummy. I agree with him, and you call me scummy. How is me attacking you convenient for me?
And what does the thing in bold have to do with anything? Was you calling LnGrrrR scummy simply a reaction test? Is that what you're saying? How do you think he reacted then?

Also, if you really saw this as being so scummy, why aren't you voting me?

You calling me out? You're in my top 3 scumreads now, so first reason why I didn't vote you is because there are alternatives. It's not as if I'm not voting. What scummy reasons would you see for me not voting for you, that would make this question more than simply showing your defiance? And would me adding a vote to my arguments have changed your reaction to them?

'twas a joke.

Urgh. I like a good laugh, but people blaming having said weird things on "joking" are always scummy in my book.

Okay.

As far as jokes go, it wasn't even really funny as in "hahaha"-funny. I don't think you would think it "haha"-funny either. The only thing that makes it a joke is that it is not sincere. But that's not enough for a joke. It is enough for a scummy statement.

Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)

"I wasn't known to do that often" = meta-argument. And to be perfectly honest, I never associated you with someone who doesn't like voting or changing votes all the time. Anyway, I don't like the argument in the quote above, hard to put my finger on it but the logical conclusion that Crandaja took your vote seriously (did he?) because of your meta (did he?) doesn't really add up. And even if it does, it goes to show that meta IS useful and you are willing to use it in your gaming strategy.

Yes, it is useful for me to use, not for you all. By you all using my meta to ascertain my alignment in this game, I am able to use that examination to make you all think certain things of me when I really am pulling the wool over your eyes.

Why would you want to do that as town? In that case scum would already know who you are, so you'd only be fooling town.
I'm buddying Raven. Not scumbuddies, but shameless sheeping and things of the like. LnGrrrR asked me why /I/ wasn't putting pressure on Raven, and I'm assuming he wanted me to put pressure on her. (Meanwhile, may I note how he didn't pressure her at all after I said that I wouldn't? It seems like he doesn't beli

[Grimgroove]

The last two lines from the previous post (strating from "I'm buddying") are the remnants of a Candillan quote I failed to delete.

[Grimgroove]

Grim I still get a bad feeling from. His deduction seems to be erratic and a lot different from last game. I don't really get what he's trying to do.

I don't like how you're being so insistant on this. This constant repetition is not going to change what I already have said about it. I have already explained what I was trying to do: find scum. I thought I saw a scumslip and acted on it. I was wrong, but as I asked Ravenpaw before (which she left unanswered): What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding? An easy lynch? How would that even work? If Syryana hadn't found it, you yourself would still have been in the position to point out my mistake, as you already knew what you were referring to. As scum I would know for a fact that this wouldn't be a scumslip and that it would be an easily deflected attack. Then why would I do it? The fact that I actually believed in my argument is the only reason why I brought it up and thought it could have a chance of success. And how could I believe in it in the position of being scum myself?

I STILL find your RVS-vote very odd, and though my initial reason may have been wrong (scumslip referring to a QT-post), the secondary reason why it's odd (reference to a historical post ) is almost as compelling. It literally seemed to have come falling out of the sky, and also the way you explained it makes it sound like it did, but I have difficulties believing it.

Your OMGUS-tunnelling isn't making me feel very good about you. Still have to read through the topic more in depth before possibly changing my vote.

Would you calm down? Homer asked me what I thought about you and I told him. Just because you have some ridiculous reasoning doesn't mean i feel any better about you.

I am calm.
What makes the reasoning ridiculous?

[Grimgroove]

You calling me out? You're in my top 3 scumreads now, so first reason why I didn't vote you is because there are alternatives. It's not as if I'm not voting.

Who are your three scumreads now?

Candillan, Crandaja, Ravenpaw are in my top 3 scumreads. I'm planning to give a full reads list (probably tomorrow) of every player here to clarify this. Need to IC some more people.

[Grimgroove]

This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.

Since shaboostein is being replaced, and this really rubbed me the wrong way:

VOTE: Crandaja

Will respond to your more post more in depth later today, even though we're mostly going in circles.

[Grimgroove]

You don't think that that ^ will fool anyone who read this topic, do you?

[Grimgroove]

I never claimed it to be a strong argument. Even though I still stand behind my view that there is a difference between yes and yup, there is no way in hell this difference would constitute a scumtell or anything resembling it.

I find it very telling that Crandaja has to refer to the weakness of the argument while knowing very well what it was meant to do. The topic has been discussed widely before, just like everything else he posted in an effort to attack me. Instead of responding to arguments in an A-B-C-D manner, every discussion with him becomes A-B-A-B... He's definitely being anti-town by his tunnel, both in content and in target. And he can say it's not OMGUS all he wants, but pretty much his entire case revolves around me trying to pinch him with a scumslip.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, I think the yes vs yep argument was pretty weak too, but it was coming soon after RVS and it was an attempt to generate discussion/content, which is why I don't see it as that scummy. If you had pulled that argument now that we have decent data to go through I would've found it much worse.

PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.

[Grimgroove]

My to-do list:
- Reply to Crandaja's latest
- Try to pinpoint what it is about LnGrrrR that I suddenly don't like.
- Make a reads list on everyone (IC-time)

So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.

Anyway, first thing's first:

I don't like how you're being so insistant on this. This constant repetition is not going to change what I already have said about it. I have already explained what I was trying to do: find scum. I thought I saw a scumslip and acted on it. I was wrong, but as I asked Ravenpaw before (which she left unanswered): What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding? An easy lynch? How would that even work? If Syryana hadn't found it, you yourself would still have been in the position to point out my mistake, as you already knew what you were referring to. As scum I would know for a fact that this wouldn't be a scumslip and that it would be an easily deflected attack. Then why would I do it? The fact that I actually believed in my argument is the only reason why I brought it up and thought it could have a chance of success. And how could I believe in it in the position of being scum myself?

Well you could definitely put some pressure on me. The argument that you could not have made the post if you were scum really doesn't make much sense. That early in the game it really doesn't do you much harm to be wrong (clearly) since I'm the only one that seemed bothered by your error. You wouldn't need to believe it to post it. Lying is part of this game.

Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.

I STILL find your RVS-vote very odd, and though my initial reason may have been wrong (scumslip referring to a QT-post), the secondary reason why it's odd (reference to a historical post ) is almost as compelling. It literally seemed to have come falling out of the sky, and also the way you explained it makes it sound like it did, but I have difficulties believing it.

Your OMGUS-tunnelling isn't making me feel very good about you. Still have to read through the topic more in depth before possibly changing my vote.

How exactly is a reference to a historical post compelling in any way? Even Candillian remembered the interaction as being one of our only ones so I don't know why this makes me scum. It seems extremely desperate to me.

It shows a lot of pre-consideration, even though you try to make it sound as if it was the first thing that popped inside your head. And in an RVS-stage, I'd say pre-consideration is fishy. If anything, I want people in RVS to act natural and carefree. Referring to posts of two weeks before shows me you've been thinking long and hard on what to post in RVS, and I don't like it.

I don't see how Candillan's remembering stuff adds anything to this discussion? Do you think he would have remembered it if you hadn't brought it up? I doubt it.

As I said before its not OMGUS. I don't care about you voting me but you made a pretty significant accusation and contradicted yourself instantly. This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.

Reacted to the last portion before, which I find ridiculous to evenb ring up again.
About me contradicting myself: Where? Please check my dialogue with Ravenpaw in case you're talking about the "anywhere". This is not a contradiction. It could be interpreted as one if you want to, but it is not. "Anywhere" is too vague a term to link any exact concepts like "contradiction" to it.

[Grimgroove]

What is your read on me?

[Grimgroove]

Candillan, Crandaja, Ravenpaw are in my top 3 scumreads. I'm planning to give a full reads list (probably tomorrow) of every player here to clarify this. Need to IC some more people.

I assume you mean ISO, not IC? I will be interested to see your cases.

Yes, tomorrow or the day after.

This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.

Since shaboostein is being replaced, and this really rubbed me the wrong way:

Shaboostein is not being replaced yet, I don't think? What rubbed you the wrong way about Crand's post?

edosurist asked for a replacement in the Newbie-queu. What rubbed me the wrong way: see post 178

PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.

Do elaborate. I liked that post.

It felt like trying to get a piece of both sides of the argument, trying to soothe both me and Crandaja. The fact that if I would use the "yes yep" thing later in the game is entirely irrelevant (I didn't and will not), yet he's adding it. If find this addition very odd, and the motives I see: 1. He's trying to make up for his "buddying" towards me (calling me town while nobody else does, there's even disagreement on how similar I act compared to the previous game from what I gather, yet he's claiming that I do behave the same. Even I disagree with that, given the negative attention I have not been entirely able to get into the game as much as I'd like to) by awkwardly showing others I'm not outside of his scope of criticism. 2. As I personally feel this entire yep-yes thing has been dragging on long enough, I also see it as an easy way to come off as a sensible guy who sees both sides of the story. Too easy and with no added value. Why do you like it so much?

So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.

What conclusions do you make about the lack of activity from myself and Raven?

Makes you less trustworthy than I would like. I for one don't see why Candillan puts you in his main townreads. In the previous game (even though I had more info) it seemed much more evident to put you on the townpile. Same goes for Ravenpaw.

Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.

There is a scumslip in here. Town points to whomever finds it!

I don't see it, but I'm sure there's an explanation

Don't see Candillan's scumslip either.

[Grimgroove]

Funny call on Grim, I missed it.

Did you actually find it or are you pretending you did?

[Grimgroove]

I find the "of course" part in Candillan calling Homer and Syryana town odd. There's very little that is evident about the statement, unless speaking from the perspective of scum knowing who's town.
Not calling this a slip myself, but I could imagine Syryana's talking about this?

[Grimgroove]

Why don't you try me? There's town points in it for you.

[Grimgroove]

No. I'm also rather disappointed you didn't attack Cand's last post.

Of course, Caesar. Next time I'll try not to dissappoint you in the arena.
PS: you just asked the same question to Candillan (why he thinks you and Homer are town), yet you dismissed my post where I did it with a simple "no".
This makes me a hurt gladiator

[Grimgroove]

I did it twice indirectly on this page alone, before you seem to have thought about it. And there's no reason to think an indirect question is worth less than a directly asked one, everyone's supposed to read everything and my questions were obvious.

[Grimgroove]

Syryana, you forgot to reply in your eagerness to dismiss my percieved scumslip from Candillan. Also, when it comes to scumslip, the one you pinted out from Candillan is dissappointingly weak. When I think of "scumslip" I think of something scum would say that would incriminate close to 100%. Like a reference to a QT for example. Not something that can be interpreted in any way, or which simply consitutes a choice of formulation. Scumslips are about meaning, not formulation.

Not happy with Crandaja replacing out like that, but warm welcome to the two newcomers! Let's get this game more active.

[Grimgroove]

At Rach, also respond to post 63 please. Seemed like an untargeted shot in the dark and a post you thought about before the game really started. In a case where the context would be right, this would make you look town, but now it doesn't really add up to anything that was going on in the topic. There was a meager string of RVS votes and that's it.

@LnGrrrR: How do you feel about me thinking you're buddying? What cases have I made so far that were as sensible as the "Title Pending" game that make me lean town for you?

[Grimgroove]

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

Scumslip?
How would you know? You only knew me as scum in the previous game, and now you're supposedly assuming I'm scum as well.

[Grimgroove]

Also, reply to post 201. don't see how you could miss it. It's on top of the page and in bright green.

[Grimgroove]

Syryana, you forgot to reply in your eagerness to dismiss my percieved scumslip from Candillan. Also, when it comes to scumslip, the one you pinted out from Candillan is dissappointingly weak. When I think of "scumslip" I think of something scum would say that would incriminate close to 100%. Like a reference to a QT for example. Not something that can be interpreted in any way, or which simply consitutes a choice of formulation. Scumslips are about meaning, not formulation.

Of course you think it's weak. He's your scumbuddy.

Urg, doesn't add up. Do you think I actually think it's weak, or do you think I try to convince you it's weak while actually believing it's strong.
If it's the first, this has got nothing to do with my alignment.
If it's the second: you just called me reasonable and logical. Why would a logical person dismiss an argument he knows is strong?

[Grimgroove]

It was already WIFOM to start with, don't pretend otherwise.

[Grimgroove]

I would have opreferred a full response to 201. Asking questions and just sitting there "nodding" at the answers is not very constructive. Is it wrong of me to expect some sort of follow-up like you did for Candillan?

[Grimgroove]

Of the points in that leprechaun-flavored quote; I have responded already to points 3 and 5, point 1 I am still waiting on, point 4 is your answer to my question, point 2 is also no longer of relevance since I'm not interested in Crand anymore.

So I'm not entirely sure what you're wanting a full response to.

It was already WIFOM to start with, don't pretend otherwise.

The scumslips are not WIFOM. Your response to Candillan's was.

You claiming that my response to Candillan's scumslip is easily explained by him being my buddy is WIFOM.

Why aren't you interested in Crand anymore? Simply because he's replaced? the slot got an entire refresh? You realize the slot has still the same role behind it, do you?
Post 178 is as much about me as it is about Crand. What do you think about it? What was it that made you interested in the answer to your question (2) and why isn't it anymore?

How do you read Ravenpaw?

[Grimgroove]

Into the arena I go, my emperor.

Oh, I know what you're talking about. The "I was town that game".
I was letting him know that I was town in 1335, to give him perspective. Would it have been different if I had said "I was town that game, too."?

I still find this laughable when it comes to scumslips. I hope for your sake you have a better one on me, considering how you've been raising expectations.

Funny call on Grim, I missed it.

Like I said earlier: I think he's pretending he found it. Late ron he claims to have "misread the quote" and dropped the whole thing. Very silly. Would still like to see how he misread it, and what it was he saw.

I am town, Syryana. What are the odds of me/Grim being scum together twice in a row?
1. I personally don't find our interactions suspicious.

Bad argument, but it doesn't change the fact that it's up to you (Syryana) to show where they're bad in order for you to back up your opinion on me and Candillan being scumbuddies.

2. Those odds are extremely low.

Very bad argument indeed.

3. I'm still town.

Meh, not a tell either way.

Why have I been having trouble producing reads this game? It's because I'm trying to look at interactions, and I'm seeing too many potential scumteams to be healthy.

IWondering why he's not trying a different approach if his current one isn't working. But I also see some possible pairs so I do get what he's trying to say. (Crandaja-Ravenpaw; Syryana-LnGrrrR, for example)

Why did you vote me on the "slip", but not Grim?

fair question

Why do you like LnGrrrR? All I see in that post where you said you liked him is him subtly buddying you.

fair question

If you see self-meta as dumb, why didn't you pressure Grim on that?

fair question. Surprised you didn't refer to the fact we had a discussion about self-meta in the previous game, where I already made my point on self-meta clear. Why would you use it against me now, when you didn't then?

UNVOTE:
Forgot I was still voting Shaboo. I think he's being replaced, as he hasn't posted yet. He also has posted in other games, though~

If I was to make a reads list at the moment, it would look like this:

TOWN
Syryana/Homer
Raven
LnGrrrR/Crand/Grim
SCUM

Shaboo and Rach haven't posted nearly enough for me to get a read on them.

PS: What's the point of not sharing my scumslip? Why does it give townie points to whoever finds it? Why wouldn't scum be able to find it?

I have proclaimed Candillan to be among my main scumreads before, and I'm sure if you ISO me you'll find reasons why I did (in attendance of my full reads list). Why then proceed later on to claim I'm dismissing arguments against Candillan simply because they're directed against him (cfr. his scumslip).

A thing that strikes me as very odd, and this is directed to both Ravenpaw and Candillan: what happened to your buddying? I've seen close to none of it this game.

[Grimgroove]

Since we're speaking of Candillan, what do you think of his response to his "scumslip"? (#199)

Why did you put scumslip in between " "s here?

[Grimgroove]

You claiming that my response to Candillan's scumslip is easily explained by him being my buddy is WIFOM.

Why aren't you interested in Crand anymore? Simply because he's replaced? the slot got an entire refresh? You realize the slot has still the same role behind it, do you?
Post 178 is as much about me as it is about Crand. What do you think about it? What was it that made you interested in the answer to your question (2) and why isn't it anymore?

How do you read Ravenpaw?

Ah, I thought you were saying the scumslip itself was WIFOM. Fair enough.

As a general rule, I like to get input from replacements. I don't erase what their predecessor did but I do like to judge the replacement on their own merits.

How does this compute with "I'm not interested in Crand anymore"? (post 229

Wrt 178: He was being anti-town about it, yes. I don't see it as scummy, though. You go after him, he OMGUS' you, then tunnels you thereafter. Seen it happen with newbies before. Hell, I've done it myself.

Why did you think he was scummy, if not that?

I was interested in fleshing out your thought process. I thought Crand was scummy myself and wanted to know how your reasons matched up with mine. Since I've now found the scumteam, I no longer care.

Your conviction is either has proven to be a powerful tool in the past and you're using it with bad intentions, or I'm afraid we're dealing with a "Caesar".

Into the arena I go, my emperor.

What is it with people buddying me this game? First Candyland with all his "Syr is so town" stuff and now you with the "Caesar/Emperor" comments.

Do you seriously consider this at buddying? My goodness . I thought the reference is clear. Twice when I've used this symbolism it was referring to your attitude of pitching me against Candillan, just like Caesar would do to his gladiators. You sit there on your tribune and let us sort it out. I'm playing along but don't think I don't notice what you're doing. I don't like these puppetmaster-questions, as the "assignments" you give already show your clear bias.

Oh, I know what you're talking about. The "I was town that game".
I was letting him know that I was town in 1335, to give him perspective. Would it have been different if I had said "I was town that game, too."?

I still find this laughable when it comes to scumslips. I hope for your sake you have a better one on me, considering how you've been raising expectations.

Funny call on Grim, I missed it.

Like I said earlier: I think he's pretending he found it. Late ron he claims to have "misread the quote" and dropped the whole thing. Very silly. Would still like to see how he misread it, and what it was he saw.

I am town, Syryana. What are the odds of me/Grim being scum together twice in a row?
1. I personally don't find our interactions suspicious.

Bad argument, but it doesn't change the fact that it's up to you (Syryana) to show where they're bad in order for you to back up your opinion on me and Candillan being scumbuddies.

2. Those odds are extremely low.

Very bad argument indeed.

3. I'm still town.

Meh, not a tell either way.

Why have I been having trouble producing reads this game? It's because I'm trying to look at interactions, and I'm seeing too many potential scumteams to be healthy.

IWondering why he's not trying a different approach if his current one isn't working. But I also see some possible pairs so I do get what he's trying to say. (Crandaja-Ravenpaw; Syryana-LnGrrrR, for example)

Why did you vote me on the "slip", but not Grim?

fair question

Why do you like LnGrrrR? All I see in that post where you said you liked him is him subtly buddying you.

fair question

If you see self-meta as dumb, why didn't you pressure Grim on that?

fair question. Surprised you didn't refer to the fact we had a discussion about self-meta in the previous game, where I already made my point on self-meta clear. Why would you use it against me now, when you didn't then?

UNVOTE:
Forgot I was still voting Shaboo. I think he's being replaced, as he hasn't posted yet. He also has posted in other games, though~

If I was to make a reads list at the moment, it would look like this:

TOWN
Syryana/Homer
Raven
LnGrrrR/Crand/Grim
SCUM

Shaboo and Rach haven't posted nearly enough for me to get a read on them.

I'll ask more directly: does it make him scummier or townier?

Scummier, mainly because of his 3 numbered points. Now you answer the questions contained therein please. I get the feeling you've been buying an awful lot of time for yourself lately.

PS: What's the point of not sharing my scumslip? Why does it give townie points to whoever finds it? Why wouldn't scum be able to find it?

I have proclaimed Candillan to be among my main scumreads before, and I'm sure if you ISO me you'll find reasons why I did (in attendance of my full reads list). Why then proceed later on to claim I'm dismissing arguments against Candillan simply because they're directed against him (cfr. his scumslip).

A thing that strikes me as very odd, and this is directed to both Ravenpaw and Candillan: what happened to your buddying? I've seen close to none of it this game.

I'm not sharing your scumslip because I want to see if anyone else finds it. Besides, watching you squirm makes me giggle.

Squirming? Misrep.

About your scumreads: Candillan's in there for show. Look at your voting patterns. You voted him once early early on in the game (in RVS actually) and you haven't touched him since. If Candyland gets lynched, or close, you can bus him with almost no repercussion. However, judging from your knee-jerk reaction to my scumslip proclamation (e.g. can't find the slip, calling it lame, not attacking Candillan's horrendous rebuttal until I mention it),

Very curious at this point what others think of this scumslip you found. I'm actually very curious what they think about the scumslip I found with you. You kind of squirmed your way out of that one, didn't you? And yes, of course my scumslip. Keeping me away at night, that is

you weren't serious about your scumread on him. Though you've made any number of references to things Candillan's done you don't like, you've never made any effort to push a wagon on him.

Other priorities. You can only have one vote on one person at a time. Are you saying that when you have your vote against someone, you don't have any arguments against anyone else? That you don't bother to make comments about them? Even if I didn't vote, I'd like to think my comments on Candillan helped other people to think about him in a scummy light. What do you think of the references I did make? Did they sound insincere by themselves, or just because there was no vote accompanying them.

Since we're speaking of Candillan, what do you think of his response to his "scumslip"? (#199)

Why did you put scumslip in between " "s here?

Because you don't think it's legit.

That's mighty considerate of you, "buddy".

[Grimgroove]

How do you read Ravenpaw?

I forgot to answer this. Answer: I dunno, she's being a lurky-pants.

Fascinating.

[Grimgroove]

Where did the other people go?

[Grimgroove]

2. Those odds are extremely low.

Very bad argument indeed.

Why is it a bad argument? He's right. The chances to that

are

slim.

The chance to that is just as slim as any other scumpair. Yet there is a scumpair out there, that's a fact. And that existing pair has just the same odds of happening as me and Candillan being scum together again. I'm obviously not saying we are, but using statistics like that is not valid in any way.

How do you read Ravenpaw?

I forgot to answer this. Answer: I dunno, she's being a lurky-pants.

Fascinating.

What's so fascinating? I feel the same way about her.

I feel there's more to be said about her besides the lurking. Her reaction to the Crand story. Her non-buddying to Candillan. The reason why I chose this choice of words is that it's also telling how Syryana intends to tunnel on both me and Candillan right now. I don't find that pro-town, and thus, fascinating.

[Grimgroove]

Where did the other people go?

I don't know. I think Rach needs a pord.

I'd even start suggesting a replacement, though it's not easy to replace an IC. But including the Title Pending game she's been largely inactive and detached for a couple of weeks now, and I don't see any reason why that would improve suddenly. No offense intended towards Rach but I think it's getting hard to ignore this trend.

[Grimgroove]

The chance to that is just as slim as any other scumpair. Yet there is a scumpair out there, that's a fact. And that existing pair has just the same odds of happening as me and Candillan being scum together again.

A. He

is

talking about you and him being scumpair again.
B. He's talking about it in a "twice in row" context.

Those

chances are, indeed, slim.

A. Where did I give you the impression I didn't know that?
B. No. Really, no. They're exactly the same as any other pair being drawn in this game.

[Grimgroove]

I feel there's more to be said about her besides the lurking. Her reaction to the Crand story. Her non-buddying to Candillan. The reason why I chose this choice of words is that it's also telling how Syryana intends to tunnel on both me and Candillan right now. I don't find that pro-town, and thus, fascinating.

What do

you

think about all that?

I have stated before Ravenpaw is in my top 3 scumreads before, so that should give you a hint.

I really should make a reads list and ISO the lot of you, but I'm having too much fun retorting to Syryana's little games, which does take some time.
I'll get started on it tonight, but might only produce a result tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

While you're here, Homertve, what do you think about Candillan's scumslip that's been spotted by Syryana?
What do you think of the scumslip I found in Syryana's post at the end of the previous page?

[Grimgroove]

Damn yes, hadn't noticed. Thanks for pointing that out.
Going to fix that tag problem before it confuses other people.

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

Scumslip?
How would you know? You only knew me as scum in the previous game, and now you're supposedly assuming I'm scum as well.

(he replied to it in post 224, think of it what you may and please share those thoughts)

[Grimgroove]

^^ Sorry, post 226 is where he replies to it.

[Grimgroove]

Damnit, not a good time for a new page :p

[Grimgroove]

About the using colors in quotes: something I picked up in another game. They're easier to make and make the walls a little less long, but I see your point of it excluding other people from the discussion by making it harder for them to refer to it. Duly took note of that.

I'd also like to make yet another additional point on Candillan's supposed scumslip.
What everyone is doing, both town and scum, is somehow conveying the message that they're town, in between the lines. Some are more blunt and state it directly, but that would be showing a certain eagerness to show that you're town that is not appreciated by everone.
Fate has it that this happened in this very topic, on the first page. Candillan stated in caps that he's town this time. Syryana changed his RVS vote (let's assume re-RVS) and said Candillan was too eager to show he's town. Granted, it was a possible RVS and therefore not necessarily a serious motivation, but it could be taken as one. I myself don't find the simple statement "I'm town" convincing at all, and in fact think it has a more scummy aura around it.
Anyway, moving to the "scumslip". Candillan said "I was town that game", Syryana would have preferred "I was town that game, too".
Given the RVS argument, I can easily see Syryana use the wording he supposedly preferred against Candillan just as easily, by saying he's too eager in emphasizing he's town in this game.
This wasn't a scumslip. This was simply Candillan not being over-eager to state he's town (for a change).
Given Syryana used both arguments (though yes, once he used it in RVS), it seems like he's betting on any horse that could get Candillan lynched, even if they're running in opposite directions.

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove, I'm already voting for Syryana. I think it's a good time for you to switch your vote to him as well.

I want to finish my reads list first, but yes, he's a very likely candidate to get my next vote.

UNVOTE:

Seeing how this vote seems to stem from the middle ages by now.

Liking imkingdavid's entry post. Very promising, as is the ancient join date.

[Grimgroove]

Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does.

I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did.

It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.

The slip is the bolded. Grim is arguing that he would not have used the scumtell approach if he knew for a fact that it was not true, since it would come back to bite him in the ass. (For reference, the scumtell-approach referred to here is the "darling" comment, see post #26).

In context, Grim is arguing with Crandaja. Crand thought Grim was scummy for interpreting the "darling" RVS vote as a scumtell. Grim counters by arguing that he would not use such an approach as scum. He says specifically:

I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did.

So Grim's argument is that he's not scummy because using such an approach as scum when he knows the accusation is false would be ludicrous. However, since Grim did

not

know the accusation was false (he admits he did not notice the "darling" comment came from the previous game, I caught him on that myself), he essentially admits here that he did in fact use the scumtell-approach. Look at his word choice: "I would not have used". Not "I would not use" or "Using that approach would be foolish", etc. He admits he used the approach.

If we temper the above statement with the following facts:
Grim did not know the accusation was false.
Grim used the scumtell approach.

The statement becomes:

I used the scumtell-approach because I didn't know it wasn't true.

Ergo, Grimgroove is scum and tried to force a mislynch on Crandaja.

I still don't see your point I'm afraid.

[Grimgroove]

As a general rule, I like to get input from replacements. I don't erase what their predecessor did but I do like to judge the replacement on their own merits.

How does this compute with "I'm not interested in Crand anymore"? (post 229

No reply?

Wrt 178: He was being anti-town about it, yes. I don't see it as scummy, though. You go after him, he OMGUS' you, then tunnels you thereafter. Seen it happen with newbies before. Hell, I've done it myself.

Why did you think he was scummy, if not that?

Originally the "darling" comment and I found his responses inadequate.

What made you change your mind? Why were they inadequate? Anyway, this point is moot because you already admitted he was being anti-town. The line between that and scummy is arbitrary at best.

I was interested in fleshing out your thought process. I thought Crand was scummy myself and wanted to know how your reasons matched up with mine. Since I've now found the scumteam, I no longer care.

Your conviction is either has proven to be a powerful tool in the past and you're using it with bad intentions, or I'm afraid we're dealing with a "Caesar".

Caesar indeed. Do elaborate.

Either you're really convinced, making you a "Caesar" as in: simply expecting others to agree with you just because you're sure, without real arguments to back that up. Looking at my supposed scumslip I'm even more confident in saying you've got absolutely nothing on me.
Or you're pretending to be convinced, in hopes that your mere conviction will be rallying enough to get others to join both your Candillan and Grimgroove leads.

Into the arena I go, my emperor.

What is it with people buddying me this game? First Candyland with all his "Syr is so town" stuff and now you with the "Caesar/Emperor" comments.

Do you seriously consider this at buddying? My goodness . I thought the reference is clear. Twice when I've used this symbolism it was referring to your attitude of pitching me against Candillan, just like Caesar would do to his gladiators. You sit there on your tribune and let us sort it out. I'm playing along but don't think I don't notice what you're doing. I don't like these puppetmaster-questions, as the "assignments" you give already show your clear bias.

Ah, you're being insulting. I see. So, I'm Caesar because I'm pitting you and Candillan against each other, is that it? Kindly point out where I'm "playing the puppetmaster". Also, since you apparently find this behavior scummy (you've certainly implied it) why haven't you confronted me about it instead of making snide little comments?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to truly insult you, I thought it was more of a jist than anything else. But I think the comparison holds and yes, you're acting like a Caesar for pitting me against Candillan in the way that you do. It also reminds me of the scene in Batman where the Joker pits those two goons (not a slip, the goons were "innocents" compared to the Joker in that scene ) against eachother with a broken cue of billiards. Instead of him risking they fight him, they have to fight eachother.
I have confronted you with it. I was under the assumption the "little snide comments" were not lacking in clarity. And you did notice in the end, didn't you? Still don't see how you could possibly percieve this as buddying.
Where you're playing the puppetmaster:
post 207: "No. I'm also rather disappointed you didn't attack Cand's last post."
post 229: "Since we're speaking of Candillan, what do you think of his response to his "scumslip"? (#199)" (referring to the same post)
post 233: "I'll ask more directly: does it make him scummier or townier?"

I'll ask more directly: does it make him scummier or townier?

Scummier, mainly because of his 3 numbered points. Now you answer the questions contained therein please. I get the feeling you've been buying an awful lot of time for yourself lately.

I have answered all the questions contained therein in #207. Again with the insinuations.

1. Again? I never made insinuations unless I have something to back them up, making them more than just insinuations. Show me where I made insinuations before.
2. You didn't. I see two questions you hadn't answered at the time, and only one you half-answered at this point. The questions are about my interactions with Candillan and about my stance on self-meta.

PS: What's the point of not sharing my scumslip? Why does it give townie points to whoever finds it? Why wouldn't scum be able to find it?

I have proclaimed Candillan to be among my main scumreads before, and I'm sure if you ISO me you'll find reasons why I did (in attendance of my full reads list). Why then proceed later on to claim I'm dismissing arguments against Candillan simply because they're directed against him (cfr. his scumslip).

A thing that strikes me as very odd, and this is directed to both Ravenpaw and Candillan: what happened to your buddying? I've seen close to none of it this game.

I'm not sharing your scumslip because I want to see if anyone else finds it. Besides, watching you squirm makes me giggle.

Squirming? Misrep.

No, interpretation.

Is it an interpretation that can be explained through concrete examples of where I am squirming?

[Grimgroove]

I still don't see your point I'm afraid.

Hypothesis: "I wouldn't do this as scum if I knew it was wrong."
Evidence: "I did this."
"I did not know it was wrong."
Conclusion: "I did this as scum."

I don't know of a better way to put it.

Laws of logic have been defied in this one. Still don't see how you reach that conclusion. Let's see if anyone else does aside from you.

As scum I would already know it's wrong. It's impossible to think it is not when you're scum yourself. Town would not make a scumslip like the one I thought Crandaja made.
And this holds for this scumslip particularly (as opposed to the "scumslips" you found): it was objectively refutable. Scum doesn't use those because you know that if they can be refuted, they will be.

The logical stream is:
Hypothesis: "I wouldn't do this as scum if I knew it was wrong."
Evidence: "I did this."
"I did not know it was wrong."
Conclusion (simply putting the two pieces of evidence together): "I did it as town because I didn't know it was wrong."

[Grimgroove]

...I feel really fucking stupid. Like ungodly stupid.

Sorry to hear that but why is it only after imkingdavid said his thing you realized this? I said almost the exact same thing with regards to my supposed slip in 284 and you didn't even respond to that.

@Imkingdavid: If you're not comfortable with that reasoning making me almost as good as conftown, you can always try taking it into WIFOM, but I don't think that would be a healthy exercise.

About the Caesar-thing I feel I have to insist on apologizing again (without expecting Syryana to accept those apologies, but I kind of feel bad about it), but I really felt the comparison was more funny than mean at the time. At least it was meant this way. I happen to like metaphors and thought it worked quite well in this case. I shall refrain from this practice in the future.

[Grimgroove]

Looking at my supposed scumslip I'm even more confident in saying you've got absolutely nothing on me.

You scumslipped again. Town wouldn't be concerned about whether or not I "had something" on them.

Where did I ever look concerned?

[Grimgroove]

@LngRrr: What are your thoughts on all of this? I feel you've been very quiet during these discussions.
@RachMarie: And yours? I think you focus a bit too much on those not there. Reading imkingdavid based on one entry post also seems quite rash, no matter how good that opening post was.

[Grimgroove]

Almost done with my reads-list! Just something quick I just noticed (for imkingdavid), even though you obviously got the essence of it, I want to point out that this:

I used the scumtell-approach because I didn't know it wasn't true.

I am rewriting as:

I used the scumtell-approach because I thought it was false.

Because that is less confusing to me (double negatives and all). Also I'm assuming that "it" above means "the word being in a public communication"

is a bad re-write. The second quote is: I used the scumtell-approach because I thought it was true.
Later on you make clear that's how you understood it, but since the quotes stand out in your post I figured I'd better clarify.

[Grimgroove]

So here's my reads-list, feel free to ask questions about it in case not everything is clear, and of course to comment. I try to start with a general assertion, and then single out some posts that struck me as worthy of seperate comment.

@Syryana: I realize there's still some open points in our discussion (from both sides), I'll come back to it later but think I cover most of it during my read of you. I'm sure you'll give a heads up if I missed anything.

Looking at the activity overview I'm starting to fear that with my more than 70 posts I'm crowding out others out of this game and may have been a tad overbearing. As this is not my intention I'll try to turn it down a notch in order for others not to be too demotivated with catching up/offering own insights.

Syryana

: Looking at his posts, he's had a focus on Candillan and myself right from the start. Not just his RVS posts, but in his first ten-or-so posts the names "Candillan" and "Grimgroove" appear a lot. At first I thought this was due to the previous game where me and Candillan were scum together, but his renewed focus on us starting from post 198 has made me reconsider. This is not innocent in my eyes. It is at the very least anti-town, and given the arguments (notably the scumslips) presented against me as wel as Candillan were very weak I'd say they're scummy. I remember Syryana as more level-headed when it comes to making cases.

Aside from his arguments being weak, I also feel they're being constructed. I'll try to explain through examples below:

Post 67 I find interesting for two reasons, and both show Syryana having been a bit hypocritical later on in this topic: 1. He's using self-meta, something he later (and before) claimed to hate. When Candillan asked him why Syryana hadn't critisized my use of self-meta (when I referred to making silly arguments to try start off the Title Pending game just like I did here with yes-yep), Syryana said it was mainly because he missed it in the midst of walls (post 207). I think it was because this attack would have made him an obvious hypocrit. 2. He says homertv is making a mistake by assuming Syryana-Grimgroove is a scumpair and then later try to make the evidence fit the case. Syryana did the same thing with me and Candillan.

Post 73 is his first and only move away from the Candillan/Grimgroove trajectory, but only by a bit. Note that also in this post he's attacking me, mostly with arguments I refuted succesfully in post 36 (I say succesfully given his reaction in 37.

Post 114 he calls LnGrrrR's and my case (112) on Candillan interesting and wants to see where it goes. It goes further in post 162, but there's no real reaction to that from his side, apart from later on where he claims I only made semi-cases against Candillan without following them through. As is obvious from both 118 and 162 this is not quite true.
His post 169 sounds odd because of the sarcastic joke. I take it he agrees with me I'm in no need to calm down. While this post gives off the vibes I'm leaning town for him, there's a drastic switch in his next post 198 where the scumslip thing starts. About that I don't feel like adding too much, as I feel an adequate summary has been given by imkingdavid in post 253. I would like to point out Syryana's own scumslip in post 222, where he claims that I'm able to appear reasonable as either alignment. Given he only saw me as confscum, it's as if he's implying I'm conftown here in this phrase. Only scum would know I'm town but not treat me as such. I realize it's debatable but I find this slip more telling than the ones he had on me or Candillan.

Syryana's my main scumread, BUT I'm wary of a tunnel. His attack on me was quite intense and given my personal involvement I want to be wary of any OMGUS'ing or tunneling because of what happened. The switch in 198 was very striking, and right now I feel it's scummy. But the possibility exists this is just Syryana getting carried away with the scumslips he found, convincing himself he's right up to the point of no return. I was almost on the same track in my case against Crandaja but I got proven wrong more quickly (also because I shared the scumslip I thought I found immediately). But the fact that his arguments don't sound "honest" still makes him scummy in my book. Another reason why the argument would hold up for me but not for him is that the Crandaja-scumslip I found was objectively refutable, while those Syryana tried to use were more debatable and open to subjective interpretation, making it entirely possible for people to follow his train of thought. It's only when imkingdavid stated his opinion that Syryana turned around his cart, claiming he was feeling stupid.

I see LnGrrrR as his possible partner in the case Syryana is scum. I know it's a futile exercise at this stage, but this feeling is not the result of an exercise but of my gut having its say as well.

Candillan

is mister "I am town". Only he's not. If Syryana hadn't been my main scumread, and because I can't fathom the possibility that they're scum together, Candillan would be my top scumread. The main problem is similar to what LnGrrrR said earlier on in the thread: Candillan isn't scumhunting. Almost all of his energy and words is devoted to explaining his own actions,d efending himself. There's very little questioning, very little (refreshing) arguments he presents. He claims he's having a hard time reading people, but I find this kind of a "lazy" argument. I also don't like the way he's using his vote as an instrument. More details below:

Post 33 starts with an early townread of both homertve and Syryana. A townread that's never properly explained (aside from gut), yet one that persists in the entire topic.
Post 44 is a wagon vote, but as a vote I'd say it has been his only constructive one. Pity he already removes it two posts later in 47 for reasons that remain unclear until this day.
After this there is a string of posts where he's calling out for shaboo. That's all he does for a day.
In post 85 there's a serious vote which illustrates the point I tried to make earlier: his only posts that have content or those where he has to defend himself. And this defense also forms his way in to presenting a "case" of his own, typically against his attacker, in this case LnGrrrR. I call it OMGUS and he said: So what? Sue me! He then claimed it to be a mere reaction test, but never presented the results of this test and of what he was looking for exactly.
In post 103 he mentions a rivalry-ish thing with Syryana I'm completely unaware of. Candillan has been calling Syryana town during this entire game.
In post 105 he drops his vote on LnGrrrR after the latter makes some sort of minor acquiescence. There is no explanation given by Candillan. LnGrrrR sticks to the vote however.
Post 116: finally the vote on shaboo, after a lot of talk. I kind of had to pressure him into it (in his words: "remind him"), making this vote yet again an externally instigated move, and not the result of internal thought processes. This is not how a vote should be used.
Post 118 he says I'm no longer leaning town (when was I?) simply for being on his case. Something similar happens in post 162, where he claims I'm simply sheeping. Yet another attack only instigated by an attack on himself.
Post 142 is set within the long discussion between him and LnGrrrR about the latter reading me as town "like in the last game". I don't see how this discussion helped in finding scum, yet this is one of the only discussions that Candillan was active in and didn't involve himself as the topic.
Starting from post 204 the scumslip thing starts. As I already said I didn't find his defense towards Syryana's allegations very strong. Instead of calling the scumslip weak he actually showed an unnatural amount of understanding for Syryana's argument in the case Candillan would be town.

Candillan is also a strong scumread. I see an associative tell with shaboostein's slot based on the bussing (at least I see it as bussing).

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

shaboostein/mkfuba

: Zero read, aside from the association I see with Candillan and maybe RachMarie.

RachMarie

is find anti-town to say the least, and possibly scum. Okay, she has not been very active in the Title Pending game either, and there she was town, but here her behaviour strikes me as a bit more scummy because she hasn't answered any of the questions that have been asked to her and she's being a tad hypocritical in her "case" against shaboostein (it's not a case, but it's the only thing that resembles it coming from her). Posts 220 and 221 (where I point out why I find her post 43 scummy) kindly reminded her to do answer some of the questions asked to her, but no dice. She puts a lot of emphasis on shaboostein and his replacement not being active, but that's quite rich coming from her. Post 271 rubbed me the wrong way especially. "People like shaboostein" only include Ravenpaw (of which she said she was sorry to see her go) and herself. This is a cheap shot at shaboostein for reasons that she's guilty of herself. Also the fact that one person is not active doesn't mean you can't get any reads from anyone else. Yet she claims this is the main difficulty, and I call BS on that argument, plain and simple. Scummy. Yes, this is my third scumread, without counting the associative tells, but I can't help it if you guys decide to act all scummily. Up to you to show me where I'm wrong.

LnGrrrR

: I don't find him as pro-active as in the "Title Pending" game. He hasn't been very open-minded in starting new cases or participating in scumhunting by others. He's mainly been tunneling on Candillan (which I see he now admits to in his latest post), a case he started early in the game (post 74 and never really dropped, despite many other things (that are not "minor" as he puts it) presenting themselves and the discussion between him and Candillan dying out around post 104. The only other time he does present an effort to try a case against someone else is against Crandaja in post 102, which was prompted by Ravenpaw's question and seriously flawed, which he admits to shortly after. Post 177 also gives me scumvibes, as I already explained. It felt like trying to get a piece of both sides of the argument, trying to soothe both me and Crandaja. The fact that if I would use the "yes yep" thing later in the game is entirely irrelevant (I didn't and will not), yet he's adding it. If find this addition very odd, and the motives I see: 1. He's trying to make up for his "buddying" towards me (calling me town while nobody else does, there's even disagreement on how similar I act compared to the previous game from what I gather, yet he's claiming that I do behave the same. Even I disagree with that, given the negative attention I have not been entirely able to get into the game as much as I'd like to) by awkwardly showing others I'm not outside of his scope of criticism. 2. As I personally feel this entire yep-yes thing has been dragging on long enough, I also see it as an easy way to come off as a sensible guy who sees both sides of the story. Too easy and with no added value. (this was a copy-paste of my earlier arguments against it in case you were having a déjà-vue).

Compared to others he's not as scummy in my eyes, but he's definitely not on my townpile either. Would very much like to see more of him.

Ravenpaw

: What's clear is that she hasn't put any effort into this game. She just participated in some discussions that happened to be going on while she was posting, but without ever putting her heart into it. The only things of some interest were her dropping her case against me but not her argument in post 125 and her vote on LnGrrrR, which I thought was sensible and refreshing at the time in post 156. Slightly town, but how much can you tell from the little she has done...

homertve

: finally a townread. Starting from post 64 basically everyone agreed on him acting as town. Though I personally feel that 64 was a bit too early for a reads list (resulting in arguments that had to be countered by Syryana, after which homertve explained it was mainly a hunch), it did show a certain openness in sharing thought processes and theories that can possible move the game along. He has never stopped doing this, and never shunned giving his opinion on ongoing discussions or people, resulting in another reads list in post 139. Liking him so far.

Crandaja/imkingdavid

: Also townread, though I didn't have that at all with Crandaja. Where Crandaja was tunneling, overly defensive and OMGUS, imkingdavid has shown only rational opinions and arguments that make sense. His summaries of what's going on are unbiased and show every side of the story, allowing others to step in without having to fear they're being withheld some possible truths. I'm thinking Crandaja just took my "darling" attack on him a bit too personally without trying to consider the possible town-motive for such an attack, bwhich I guess is understandable.



Well, yes, it's between the two on top of my list, and I feel Syryana has given me most reasons to do this:

VOTE: Syryana
(this is L-2)

(yes, I had a lot of time today)

[Grimgroove]

And I messed up only one tag. Yay me.

@mod: Could you fix that [/post] tag please? Thanks!

Fixed! Let me know if the links aren't what you wanted for some reason.

[Grimgroove]

TOWN
homer/david
Raven's replacement
Grim
Syryana/LnGrrrR
SCUM

Rach/Shaboo's replacement need to post because bleh

The things that made Syryana go Town-->Scum were the Slip Grim pointed out and the sudden 180 on Grim.
LnGrrrR isn't really active, aside from a tunnel he hasn't been pushing as of late. Add Grim's point on how he "isn't treading on any toes", and you get a scumread.
David has been giving me good feelings. He's approaching situations logically and solving them, but not in the "satisfy both sides" way LnGrrrR has been.

Pedit: What is making you reconsider your read on me? I don't think any of my actions warrant an epiphany-like reread of my slot.

Also, we're almost all biased at least somewhat.

What puts Ravenpaw so high in that townlist?

I somehow find Syryana's defense strangely convincing, despite the lack of actual arguments. It just sounds very genuine. Not really sure what to make of that.

[Grimgroove]

Also, it's easy to see it as genuine when someone's stroking your beard.

Are you suggesting an AtE? You might be right. Maybe I'm getting too soft.

But not on you. for you did not respond to my read on you.

Also, what do you think of the little that RachMarie did post? She posted almost as much as Ravenpaw, yet you did not deem it necessary to comment on that or, alternatively, to call her to action several times like you did for shaboo. Could you explain why?

[Grimgroove]

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

Can you elaborate on that? I don't understand why do you think they can't both be scums?

I think given the way they have acted towards each other it's quite difficult to defend the idea they're in a scumteam together. They put up quite a row among the two of them that went far beyond possible bussing. Let me know if you disagree and why.

I somehow find Syryana's defense strangely convincing, despite the lack of actual arguments. It just sounds very genuine. Not really sure what to make of that.

Woah, that's a total 180 from your mega-post. I have to think about that for awhile.

[/quote]
¨Please let me know your findings once you did. I wouldn't call it a 180 turn though, just considering the other side of the debate, just like I did in the mega-post itself. I find it's an exercise that keeps me healthy.

Something feels fishy about Candillan's 313, but too tired right now to put my finger on it. Be back tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

@LnGrrrR: What do you think about RachMarie?

[Grimgroove]

@homertve, what are your thoughts on LnGrrrR?

[Grimgroove]

need to spend some time looking at ISOs cause ehh the big froofroo tween you and Syr is making it harder for me to see others in the game thread.

When will you do this?
What do you make of Syryana after the froofoo?
What do you make of me after the froofroo?
How do you respond to my read on you? Can you see where I am coming from with it or are you calling BS?
Why haven't you answered the questions you've been reminded repeatedly to answer?

[Grimgroove]

So, like in pretty much all weekend:

@mod

: V/LA until Sunday

At least during that time I'll be able to keep my promise to turn it down a notch :p

Also:

VOTE: RachMarie

This is not a pass for neither Syryana or Candillan. Just removing my vote from Syryana because I don't feel like a L-1 going on while I'm away and because I expect Candillan to reply regardless of whether I vote him or not.
RachMarie clearly needs an extra nudge, on top of acting scummy. I would not mind it at all if she'd be put under more scrutiny and pressure.

[Grimgroove]

imkingdavid: What is your stance on RachMarie?

[Grimgroove]

Ok, I see you addressed it in 353, yet let me put it more concretely: Would you be inclined to vote for her during this dayphase?

[Grimgroove]

Have to read through what has happened during the weekend, but might join the wagon on Candillan, it's true he's on or near the top of a lot of people's scumlists.

[Grimgroove]

meanwhile still waiting for more from this slot since Shaboo had almost nada and now we have almost nada again, though lurking is kinda null tell

feels weird that two different players are doing the same thing

...

Really not liking this bit. It feels like a gentle nudge towards an uniformed policy lynch.

I don't feel like moving my vote away from RachMarie at the moment. I at least want to see her reads before I'm even considering of moving it.

[Grimgroove]

Today's general game activity has been particularly depressing.

[Grimgroove]

It would be good sportsmanship if the mafia would choose to kill one of those inactives ones not in their team (not much honour to be gained from winning against inactives).

And RachMarie is really avoiding this topic it seems.

[Grimgroove]

Already a heads up I'll be V/LA starting from Thursday evening (2 days and a few hours from now) until Sunday evening, meaning I might not be here around the deadline for this day.
RachMarie, what are you waiting for?

[Grimgroove]

I'm still not sure what to make of Rach. While I'm glad she has made a post with content, showing that she does actively follow this game, it's not a post that made her easier to read. There also seems to be some inconsistencies inthere. LnGrrR's absence from there is, as you noted, a very interesting one, but I also find it interesting how she "blames" Syryana for trying to go for an easy lynch by voting her (RachMarie), but considers me and homertve town for doing the same. Seems rather odd, Syryana's reasons to vote her were just as good as homer's or mine I'd say.
Another oddity is her inactivity for so long, up until this point so late in the daystage. I believe her when she mentions all the practical reasons that prevented her from being more active, making her inactiveness no longer scummy, but why chose to be active in other games over this one. Still trying to figure out if it could be something role-related.

That said, yes, I will remove my vote. Again, not because I'm clearing her (though I hope this will be the starting signal to more active gaming from her part), but at this stage I think the LnGrrrR-Candillan thing is much more interesting.

Not saying one of the two will definitely be scum, but my gut right now tells me this is the case. What do you guys think about this?

While during my reads list I had more of a scum-lean on Candillan than on LnGrrrR, both are pretty equal right now.

LnGrrrR does appear townier than Candillan, but LnGrrrR seems less townie than in "Title Pending", and Candillan seems more townie than in "Title Pending". I know, meta and all that, but there is something

different

about LnGrrrR that makes my gut scream: Watch this guy.

I like Candillan's case on LnGrrrR, but the main problem is that it took way too long to compile, and the thing that caused him to look in that direction was OMGUS, there's simply no denying that. Whereas Candillan gave the impression of having a case in his head all this time, it took him an awful lot of time to actually put it in words.

LnGrrrR has been tunneling. Plain and simple. I also don't like how inj his last post, he's saying Candillan is "misrepping" him over trivial matters. Sounds like LnGrrrR has reached the stage where everything that comes close to being an argument against Candillan will be used, regardless of its inherent value.

If you ask me which lynch would be the most interesting, I'd say it would have to be among the Candillan-LnGrrrR duo. The postives and negatives for both sides, not making this an easy decision. Right now I prefer my vote on LnGrrrR. Candillan responded to my comments in a way I feel is adequate. LnGrrrR did not, and also my question to him about RachMarie was too colourless (329). But the main thing that irks me, I must admit, is the difference with "Title Pending". Anyone else notice this?

I'd like to ask everyone to give their opinion on Candillan and LnGrrrR specifically at this stage.

I'd also like to refer to my reads on both of them in post 302.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: LnGrrrR

[Grimgroove]

@Homer: While it goes without saying that I want a "good" lynch, there's no way to know for certain we will have a good lynch at this point. There's a lot still wrapped in question marks.
The reason why I say it should be interesting is that it gives us a perspective on how people feel about both players, what both players bring up and if their points were to be taken seriously, or were just a ruse. Since both players have been fairly active, there's a lot to work with once either of them flips. This makes their lynch more interesting than the lynch on a lurker.

I understand why you don't want to let the Syryana-thing go. I must shamefully admit he played on my emotions perfectly (maybe without the intention, we'll know later) and I can't help but believe him for now. I do wish he'd get more involved in the game again.

As for Candillan's case, I especially like his points about LnGrrrR"s "Switzerland complex" (which I feel is valid) and his buddying towards me. I have noticed somethnig similar to. Even in his last post LnGrrrR insists on the point of "how could I act townie" in this game. Too much importance is given to the topic when it comes to the discussion between Candillan and LnGrrrR and both calling each other scum.

What I don't like avbout Candillan's case is the easy leap from anti-town to scummy. Refusing to acknowledge a case is not necessarily close-mindedness, and the latter is not necessarily scummy. I also don't like how he starts his case with "to be honest". It sounds like the introduction to a broken promise. His post before this one spoke about a case on LnGrrrR incoming, and while it raises some good points, it does leave something to be desired for. Candillan seems tor ealize this, hence the "to be honest". It's too apologetic.

As you can see I'm still torn between the two. Hence why I ask for your opinions on this as well.

To be honest, the part that initially bothered me about you was the fact that you called Grim town for something he did as scum. Then, from that discussion, you twisted my case into "whatever he does that's town is scum, and whatever he does that's scum is scum" which was a blatant misrep that you still haven't rescinded. My case was different, and you refuse to acknowledge it. Closed-mindedness is anti-town at least, if not scummy. Your dismissing of him as town for something he did when he was scum still rubs me the wrong way. I don't think a townie would do that, and it seems as if you know he's town.

Then, you made post 194, which read as super scummy. It made it seem like you were justifying him being alive so you could pin blame on him D3 for still being alive.

Also there's the point about the Switzerland complex he's having. He isn't making enemies of anyone aside from me. He hasn't listed any scumreads aside from me, and that, especially, bothers me. Not because of OMGUS, but because he's trying to get you all to warm up to a mislynch by getting on all your good sides. He didn't even deny it when he was asked about buddying to Grim.

Is that enough?

[Grimgroove]

Really sorry to hear that Bane

I reread the "Candillan vs. LnGrrrR (and vice-versa)" thing and the more I think about it, it seems to me like a case of two towns tunneling each other. I can't explain exactly why. They both have "cases" on each other, but they both seem to climb on a tall tree, which they can't (or won't, if one of them is actually scum) climb down from. It doesn't seem to me like a master plan of a scum trying to mislynch the other (but I could be wrong). However, if I have to choose between the two of them,

I'd say LnGrrrR seems to me more calculated and dispassionate, which in my eyes seems less townie as Can's behaviour

(which is somehow desperate), but again, I think there are more chances they both town.

Good to see Bane getting back into the game.

Well, he isn't back. He just dropped by to say hello and vanished again.

Completely agree with the bolded part. Thank you for putting your finger on it, had a hard time doing it myself, but this is what I feel when reading LnGrrrR's posts too.

[Grimgroove]

Just saw that the deadline will be smackdab in the middle of my three-day trip to Barcelona (Friday til Sunday), for which I'm leaving tomorrow evening, so I'll have to reach a personal decision on who to vote at the end of this daystage by then. I don't see any way of coming online while I'm in Spain.
I just hope this won't prove to be a blockage on the proceedings, because with two inactives, every vote counts just the more...

[Grimgroove]

I'm thinking along the same lines, though one of the two inactives might very well still be part of the scumteam as well.
But with Syryana, homertve and imkingdavid all leaning town for diverse reasons, and a Candillan-LnGrrrR scumteam being hard to imagine, the scumteam you suggest is entirely possible and not far off my mind either.
There's very little interaction between them, and it's difficult to see from the topic what they think about each other.

I have a preference for lynching LnGrrrR today, he's got more postings we can work with after he flips. I don't feel we got enough from RachMarie already in this regard, I don't think her lynch would teach us as much as LnGrrrR's would.

[Grimgroove]

Do you always claim at L-2? I thought the general procedure was to wait until someone showed intent to hammer at L-1?

Yes, I think the main problem is your Switzerland-complex and tunnel, both of which are interlinked I guess. Your focus has been to singularly on Candillan, making your actions here less pro-town than they were in the previous game, where you provided reads on

everyone

, and questioned

everyone

. Besides the content, there is also a difference in tone. You seem more... serious, darker even. It's really weird but I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed.
Please do provide your reads, have been very interested in seeing those for a while.

Though I half-expect scum to fakeclaim a powerrole, I don't find your VT-claim very convincing, mainly because it comes a bit too soon.

[Grimgroove]

It might not be a slip, but there's definitely a logical fallacy there.

You say:

Grim, claims usually occur at l-2,

because if

you

wait until l-1, then

the scum

can just

self-hammer

to deny information to the town.

The underlined parts are crucial.
The "you" refers to yourself, as LnGrrrR, not waiting to claim because "scum" (by which I expect you to referring to someone else) could not "self-hammer" you then. This doesn't add up. Scum cannot "self-hammer" someone else. Scum can only self-hammer himself. It's in the verb.

The whole sentence is just wrong in pretty much every way. You explain your early claim by saying it prevents a self-hammer by scum. How does this work?

I also don't see how the "quickhammer" would make this explanation make any more sense. How does a VT-claim prevent a quickhammer?

My head hurts now.

[Grimgroove]

Also, what information would be denied to the town by a quickhammer?

[Grimgroove]

It's not really. I'm just reaction testing you. I think you meant to say

quick

hammer, not

self

hammer.

Also I giggled when you rolled your eyes <3

VOTE: RachMarie

Why the vote-change?

[Grimgroove]

So you did mean to say "self-hammer" originally?

[Grimgroove]

Why the vote-change?

I switched cause I liked his reaction and was under the impression he misspoke

But your vote was put in place before the supposed scumslip. Was his reaction really enough to nullify the other reasons to vote him?

[Grimgroove]

No offence, but you are both being very weird.

EBWOP: Oh and the "you" in the post above was an impersonal you, like, "When making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, make sure you have all the ingredients you need."

Yes, but in this case it also means "LnGrrrR", because you didn't wait to claim, so you fit the action ascribed to the "you" in your explanation.
And as I stated in 429, this makes no sense whatsoever.

The point is: If you want to prevent a self-hammer, don't self-hammer. A L-2 claim has got nothing to do with it from your PoV.
From the PoV of other players it might make a little sense to

want

a claim at L-2 to prevent a self-hammer, but it's still a stretch.

[Grimgroove]

My scumread on LnGrrrR has hereby solidified quite a bit. His logic seems like a distortion of some scum-mindset and town-mindset arguments mashed together. The presence of the scum-mindset in this mash-up is worrying to say the least, and worthy of my vote.

[Grimgroove]

But "the town" doesn't have a say in when the claim comes. That's up to the claimer.

@Syryana: Are you drunk?

[Grimgroove]

What do you think about the events on page 18?

[Grimgroove]

Okay, that settles that I guess. But page 18 really didn't make me feel any better about you, to the contrary. Maybe your reads will change my stance.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, you are my main townread, so us working together right now does make sense and it's what we're supposed to do as town, but "working together" works in many ways, and the way I see it, we already are. We just happen to be on different rajectories, where I'm on the LnGrrrR path right now, you're on the Syryana one.

The thing is, I understand your request and to answer straightforwardly: right now I don't feel like moving my vote to Syryana, away from LnGrrrR, because I'm personally still more conviced about this being a correct lynch. I know how this sounds: Grimgroove thinks he's right and doesn't want to budge. This isn't entirely true. I really do see your points about Syryana, but ever since that debacle he's given me no reason to believe he's scum, and I see possible town-motivations behind the scumslip-debacle itself. So I'm just not convinced enough.
That said, you're right, with two inactive slots, every vote is important, including mine. Since mine already has to be fixed tomorrow, it doesn't make things easier for you guys, so I want to be flexible as I can, but it requires forward thinking from all of you as well.

See, if I'd be around for the end of this daystage, and saw Syryana on L-1, I'd hammer in absense of a PR-claim. I would really want to avoid a no-lynch situation best as I can. That's why, yes, under these circumstances, I guess I would move my vote to Syryana if town asks me to do this.

However, right now, I'm still more a fan of the LnGrrrR route, and I find it too early to leave that route. I want his reads at least. Sorry if this comes off as inflexible, but it's the first time in this game I'm starting to get somehow convinced on a scumread so I'm not inclined to just let that go.

[Grimgroove]

Aside from a defense, the main thing I want from LnGrrrR is his reads list on the other players. The sooner, the better.

[Grimgroove]

I wouldn't mind another extension of the deadline either. Not only because I'm currently going on V/LA until Sunday (:p), but also to get some content for the two empty slots.

LnGrrrR, will you be presenting your reads today?

[Grimgroove]

No big deal, but for the record, the last quote in your post (#289) you have attributed to yourself, when I actually said it.

I'm not interested in credit. Stuff happened, Grim townread resulted.

While walking I was suddenly reminded of this bit. (yes, I sometimes think about you guys when I'm walking, scary stuff come to think of it)

Why did the fact that the scumslip you thought you saw me make was no scumslip at all, automatically (?) result in a townread on me? Why couldn't I be scum who simply didn't slip?

@mod: V/LA until Sunday starting from now!

My vote remains on LnGrrrR. No reads, no switchereeswitch, sorry but I was pretty clear on that.
See you in a few days.

[Grimgroove]

@Syryana: you never answered this:

No big deal, but for the record, the last quote in your post (#289) you have attributed to yourself, when I actually said it.

I'm not interested in credit. Stuff happened, Grim townread resulted.

While walking I was suddenly reminded of this bit. (yes, I sometimes think about you guys when I'm walking, scary stuff come to think of it)

Why did the fact that the scumslip you thought you saw me make was no scumslip at all, automatically (?) result in a townread on me? Why couldn't I be scum who simply didn't slip?

[Grimgroove]

ok now that we're here how was that a good end to day 1? what makes it so bad to have a no lynch?

I don't like this post at all. Productivity zero.

VOTE: Core_H86

[Grimgroove]

Even if I would have been there for the end of the first daystage I'm pretty sure I would have left my vote where it was.

Still some question marks around RachMarie and imkingdavid.

But despite that I'm not liking the posts between 614 and 618. I of course don't know your schedules, but whereas post 614 left some room for a few hours and for Homer and LnG to move their vote to Syryana, vote 616, only less than ten minutes later, already moves to an LnGrrrR lynch with surprisingly little resistance.

If imkingdavid is scum it will be difficult to pin this lynch on him as circumstances were definitely in his favor in case he is (by circumstances: lack of agreement and LnGrrrR's scummy behavior), but I find the 7-minute-shift a bad sign nonetheless.

[Grimgroove]

I don't necessarily have a problem with someone wanting a No Lynch on D1, but I don't like the way Core_H86 is rubbing our nose in the mislynch after the fact. It feels scummy to me, washing his hands in innocence and hoping we'll sort it out amongst ourselves (those on the wagon).

Questions for Core_H86: What would be your preferred course of action now? A lynch? On who? Why? What are your reads? And if you would like a lynch: why a lynch now and not in the previous stage? What do you feel you have learned from what happened so far that makes you feel more confident in lynching someone now, as opposed to D1?
And if you wouldn't like a lynch: How do you expect to move forward?

[Grimgroove]

This game has slowed down again. What happen?

[Grimgroove]

Time for me to do some VCA...

(VCA is vote count analysis)

Eagerly awaiting that.

[Grimgroove]

[Grimgroove]

I'm feeling alone inhere

Check post 630, there's a message for you inthere!

[Grimgroove]

This is incorrect.

No big deal, but for the record, the last quote in your post (#289) you have attributed to yourself, when I actually said it.

I'm not interested in credit.

Stuff happened, Grim townread resulted.

Scum slip: "is to be" vs "would be to be"
It's the same thing you tried to pull on Grim.

Noted.

At this point my vote was still on you, right after a readslist in which I called you scum.
It is only later, in post 315 where I start getting soft.
I'm starting to fear I have made a fatal mistake there. Your incorrect answer isn't helping my fears.
Who are your scumreads right now?

[Grimgroove]

At this point my vote was still on you, right after a readslist in which I called you scum.
It is only later, in post 315 where I start getting soft.
I'm starting to fear I have made a fatal mistake there. Your incorrect answer isn't helping my fears.
Who are your scumreads right now?

Huh. I thought your "getting soft" had come before I said that. I think what happened was at the time I agreed with David's logic on the truth behind the "slip" but I was ultimately more convinced by your "weakness".

Scumreads are Rach/Mothrax/homer.

Homer bothers me because he hasn't really put in any effort to investigate alternative reads; he's been tunnelling me pretty much exclusively all game (I believe he voted Rach once, but that's all). He's had suspects, but has made no particular movement to scumhunt or really do much of anything. He asks questions, yet does nothing with the answers. I don't really see any smooth flow with his suspect pool, either; he picks up and drops alternatives to me with no particular explanation as to why (#366, #454 stick out in particular, Rach's reads list should have in no way caused him to drop a scumread on her). ...

Rach is lurking like a boss, actively avoiding this game while being active elsewhere. Her reads list in #390 (her only actual post of substance) is pretty patently awful: buddying the heck out of homer, her reasoning for finding me scum is pure OMGUS, the whole thing is superficial and contains little in the way of actual analysis. Mothrax is also on this list; I really didn't like his(her?) entrance; he's not really explained any of his reads (or much of anything for that matter) in depth since replacing in. He pulls one post from me he doesn't like, one post from LnGrrR he did like, made some remarks on two things from Cand he didn't like. Reads are nebulous and I particularly don't care for how he explains away Rach's behavior as "Rach being Rach, it's null".

I'm not sure which of those three is Town (at least one of them must be, but I can't tell which). I don't like Mothrax's almost total lack of explanations (short of various I don't like this or that). Homer in particular bothers me; though he quickly unvoted yesterDay when I mentioned he's tunneling, toDay he comes back and immediately votes me again with no mention of introspection or whatever it was he promised to relook at yesterDay (i.e. the LnGrrR flip changed nothing, nor did his "step back"). The problem I have with Rach toDay is much the same as well; lurking, promises of things (where's the VCA?), etc.

What do you think, Grim? Who are you finding scummy currently? Other than me, naturally

I'm just going to ask you straight up since I'm a sucker for codes: is there a reason why you capitalized those D's in the words that have "day" in it?

[Grimgroove]

I'm going to re-read D1 this weekend, knowing what we know now, and get back to you guys later.
I hope Core isn't going to dissappear on us again, that slot seems to be jinxed.
And where's RachMarie?

[Grimgroove]

Also, I'm not lynching Core, ever. Dude's town as fuck.

Are you serious?

[Grimgroove]

I didn't get around to re-reading day one. Hopefully tomorrow.
One thing that's been bugging me for a while now. It's gut, but it's there and I think I can finally put it in words.
Does anyone else feel Syryana is acting awfully "jolly" somehow? I mean, yes, this is just a game and all that, but the way he's behaving seems jollier than for instance the "title pending" game, or this game's starting phase. Ever since the scumslip business blowing up in his face and him getting away with it there's been a remarkable change in tune. It's as if he feels he already achieved some kind of victory by surviving this little ordeal.
But yes, tomorrown re-reading the LnGrrrR lynch, I feel we kind of owe that to him.

[Grimgroove]

ahh ok now I understand what you meant.

Just as IC I do have to make sure I am doing my job as well as my role. You would be surprised by how many games it comes up.

I also really hated that post, and it gets worse the more I read it. No comment whatsoever on Core's behavior. Any game-related post really has to be dragged out of RachMarie.

V/LA or no V/LA, I feel it's time for some serious pressure on this slot:

VOTE: RachMarie

[Grimgroove]

Grim I am not making up the fact I am in pain when I type too much uggh.

I never said you did.
I sympathize with you when it comes to these physical hardships but please comment on the game because right now you're just making me feel like an asshole for voting you for not doing so.

[Grimgroove]

I didn't get around to re-reading day one. Hopefully tomorrow.
One thing that's been bugging me for a while now. It's gut, but it's there and I think I can finally put it in words.
Does anyone else feel Syryana is acting awfully "jolly" somehow? I mean, yes, this is just a game and all that, but the way he's behaving seems jollier than for instance the "title pending" game, or this game's starting phase. Ever since the scumslip business blowing up in his face and him getting away with it there's been a remarkable change in tune. It's as if he feels he already achieved some kind of victory by surviving this little ordeal.
But yes, tomorrown re-reading the LnGrrrR lynch, I feel we kind of owe that to him.

but his overall play has been random, where's the direction? call me town, if you know i'm town your scum?

I don't understand what you are trying to say with that second questin, where did that come up?

[Grimgroove]

Already in post 589 he had you in his town reads, never explaining why.
Seems he's trying to build up some strange connection with you. Buddying? Through reverse psychology trying to tell us he's definitely not your scumbuddy? Or try to imply that you are his scumbuddy?
Whatever it is, it is obvous there is some tactic behind him calling you town like that, and I don't like it.

[Grimgroove]

Clarification: I don't like it because I can't see any town-motivated tactic behind this.

[Grimgroove]

Yes.

(aka "Yep" )

[Grimgroove]

I think we still have ten days or so, so there is some time left.

I'm getting fairly confident again in my Syryana scumread.
I fear RachMarie's playstyle in general just will always feel scummy to me, but also here I don't have a very good feeling about her.
Core I'm liking slightly more after our last little interaction (UNVOTE: ).
imkingdavid I feel is a player we should be extremely wary of. Looks like a person who could be leading town easily, but he's quite difficult to read himself. I think that in case he is scum, the only way to catch him will be to catch his partner first so we might possibly uncover some interactions or lack thereof.
Homertve is still my main townread.
Mothrax I almost forgot about, no clue about this one.
Today I will re-read! Yes!

[Grimgroove]

Whoops, I unvoted thinking my vote was still on Core. Heh.
Doesn't matter much I guess, but I feel a vote behind RachMarie's name won't hurt, as a reminder to everyone not to let her slip out of sight:

VOTE: RachMarie

[Grimgroove]

so we have time look for teams or syrana pressure?

What was the point of your question if I'm town though?
And how (if at all) was my answer convincing?

[Grimgroove]

Don't be lazy Homer, come on

[Grimgroove]

Don't be lazy Homer, come on

Did I miss something?

I guess you did. Posts 653[+post] (+ his reply to it), [post]678 and 685 are all answers to your question.

[Grimgroove]

Damnit. With fixed tags this is 653, Post 378 and 685

[Grimgroove]

678 !!

Arg, it's one of these days...

[Grimgroove]

The main thing that's in Syryana's advantage right now is that RachMarie is on his wagon. Quite torn between those two.

imkingdavid: What do you make of Syryana, RachMarie, and any possible connection between them? Do you think they could be affiliated?

[Grimgroove]

Mothrax? What about you?

[Grimgroove]

Already in post 589 he had you in his town reads, never explaining why.
Seems he's trying to build up some strange connection with you. Buddying? Through reverse psychology trying to tell us he's definitely not your scumbuddy? Or try to imply that you are his scumbuddy?
Whatever it is, it is obvous there is some tactic behind him calling you town like that, and I don't like it.

The tactic being "I think he's town".

Why then, do I think Core is town? Answer: Go look at his ISO posts (#4-#20 are fairly indicative). See how concerned he is over the impending deadline? He's flipping out: trying to read the game, figure out alignments, figure out who to vote for, etc. He isn't understanding a lot of what we wrote and is trying to get clarifications where he can. I don't believe scum would even bother trying to to so nor do I think he's faking the panic in those posts. Looking at his meta I'm more convinced this is true: Core has three completed games on site, two of which he was scum in. When Core is town it is remarkably obvious he has much less idea of what's going on as he's not informed. Feel free to compare his completed games to this one.

Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=475
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=27055

Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=28979

You actually meta'd him? Wow. I will have to do the same I guess in order to find out if you're not full of shit here though .
When it comes to his behaviour in this thread, I se ea lot of questions, a lot of apologetic comments about him still catching up, but very few conclusions, apart his latest reads. Mind you, I think Core leans town as well, but to call him obvtown like you seem to do is a bridge too far.
What do you think of Core's desire to put more pressure on you? ISO'ing him it looks as if he's mainly focussed his attention on you, with a lot of wquestions in your directions. Why do you think that is?
And immediately the question for Core: Why is that?

I'm getting fairly confident again in my Syryana scumread.

Why?

I don't believe you ever answered this, Grim?

I did, on the top of this page, but I was having some technical difficulties.
I feel that I have put forward additional arguments that point to you being scummy in posts 653, 678 and 685.

[Grimgroove]

With 685 now being adressed, but with conclusions pending until I get a met-study on Core done myself. At first glance I don't see any big differences, but his posting style makes it difficult to analyze him.

[Grimgroove]

Look at this:

I still don't like Syr's tunnel vision on Grim and Candi. One can argue that Syr's complete 180 in attitude once I pointed out his error is scummy because the "I'm stupid" bit becomes an AtE, but then again, what else are you going to do in that situation at this point, whether as town or scum?

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1, sure I could still potentially support his lynch, but not before taking a look at some alternatives. Such as yourself.

At this point, David thinks Syr's

only problem

is his "180".

I replied to that on this post:

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1

It's not the only problem with Day-1-Syr. The main problem with him (at least for me) is his scumslip here:

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

...and suddenly he doesn't think it's the only problem with syr:

My suspects at this time are 1. Syr (scum slip followed by 180 degree change in attitude/tone), 2. homer (see #659), and 3. core (see #672).

I'm not so sure what to think about it. I took some time to figure that out, so I went and read again his earlier posts in the game, and stumbled across this:

VOTE: Syr
(for the scum slip bit, which I’m not too pleased with)

So, it seems that after syr's scumslip he voted him for that, although he wasn't "too pleased with" it, then (day 2, first quote of this post) he forgot all about it, and then, after I reminded him of it, syr's becomes David's no.1 suspect again, due to his "

scum slip

followed by 180 degree..."

David, can you explain those inconsistencies?
Other players, what do you think about that?

I don't want to answer before imkingdavid did, but just letting you know this post strenghtens my belief homertve is town. I think we'll have to put our heads together, just like you suggested during the previous Day.

Gonig to ISO some people today. The vote on LnGrrrR didn't really teach me anything I'm sad to say, though I did find the interaction between imkingdavid and RachMarie rather "peculiar" just before the hammer. Let's see if I can put my finger on that dubiousness so that I can further clarify.

[Grimgroove]

Motivation problems today, I'll have to get to that ISO business later.

Just managed to ISO RachMarie for now. Not liking her cases (including her last one on Syryana), not liking her lack of activity, but the first is probably due to the second, and both can be interlinked with her RL-issues. This makes her very difficult to read.

I just imagined how fucked we would be if the mothrax-slot is part of the scumteam. There's no way to read it at all, let alone interactions with the scumbud. If this would be the case I want to pre-emptively call the scumwin void.

I'm going to decide to trust homertve, and temporarily also Core.

Next one I'll be ISO'ing will definitely be imkingdavid.

[Grimgroove]

Ok, so I've ISO'd imkingdavid in a glimpse after all. One of the most striking things: ever since his 398 he has completely lost sight of RachMarie, even though she was his main scumread before that. And when I say completely, I do mean completely. The only notable interaction between them is the agreement on hammering LnGrrrR. What else I find strange about this "agreement" is the way it was reached: eventhough imkingdavid claims a clear preference towards lynching Syryana, the plan he suggests to RachMarie seems very contra-intutive given that stance.
I invite everyone to look at their interactions and share their thoughts. One thing about associative tells is that you cans ee them between any two persons if you try hard enough, so I want to hear your thoughts before convincing myself of this actually being something worth delving into.

[Grimgroove]

In the other direction RachMarie has been townreading imkingdavid ever since he got here.

Going to see if I can spot something similar between Crandaja (imkingdavid's predecessor) and RachMarie.

[Grimgroove]

Well, with these kinds of agreements it's kind of hard to learn something from the lynch right. This makes two votes on the wagon simply the result of the desire to see a lynch. That doesn't leave much else to analyse.

My vote was there before my V/LA, mainly for reasons of LnGrrrR acting completely differently compared to "Title Pending", and would probably have stayed there considering his claim, but might have changed because of the way he "sacrificed" himself for info.
Syryana's vote was also there for meta reasons.
Candillan has had suspcions of LnGrrrR throughout the entire game, he flipped town already so looking into his reasons too deeply does not make much sense.

I get the feeling in this case scum (imkingdavid and/or RachMarie, currently I'm thinking at least one of those is scum) was helped by circumstances.

Considering how both people who were part of this agreement and were so keen on "learning from this lynch" have not bothered to analyse anything from D1 ever since D2 started, I'm feeling there's something fishy here.

The problem is, again, you both are calling in real life-circumstances to justify this, but if you can post, you might as well make it more than the constant repetition of shared computers, fathers days and carpal tunnels.

RachMarie is currently at L-2. I think it's time for an L-1. We need to get this thing forward again.

[Grimgroove]

@homertve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Q3mHyzn78

[Grimgroove]

So, what happens now?
With at least 3 inactives and 1 person asking for replacement, we've got more than half of the crew not here, there's not much left to be done for those who are here, is there?
Not even taking account of the fact that all these replacements are not making it easier to read slots, making this a very scumsided game if you ask me.

Looking at the MOD and the IC (!!!) for what's the usual course of action now, because frankly, my motivation to continue inhere is knowing a downward trend.

[Grimgroove]

You got that right.

[Grimgroove]

^sorry i threw up a post and went to reading same as i am doing now.

What? I don't understand you.

[Grimgroove]

It's a cursed game.

Not even the mod is immune.

[Grimgroove]

Come on, one more week to go, still some time to get this thing on some kind of track again:

Core, what is your stance on RachMarie?
I'd like to ask Mothrax the same question.

[Grimgroove]

Always reminds me of GTA Vice City

[Grimgroove]

She's at L-1.
Yes, another week. If it's going to be as exciting as the last week was (how far did we get? Two extra pages?) I hope you won't blame me for wanting to move on to a lynch already. RachMarie obviously doesn't care very much, she's at L-1 and still does not get further than an empty promise and a poor case on Syryana.

[Grimgroove]

Is there a reason why you aren't voting anyone, Core?

[Grimgroove]

It doesn't necessarily have to be a vote on Rach. In fact, a vote on Rach now is not a good idea I guess. There should be an intent to hammer first. But you don't have that intent, right?

I'm getting pretty confident in the idea scum is to be found in the RachMarie-Mothrax-imkingdavid-triangle. Homertve has been my townread all through this game, Syryana's post-scumslip AtE didn't miss its effect and Core's last posts especially scream town for me.

If I am right in this assumption we can even afford a mislynch on either one of those three.

Thoughts?

[Grimgroove]

In a first stage, I think the following needs to happen:

- RachMarie needs to claim.
- Mothrax needs to catch up and finally provide his slot with some content. I'd suggest a reads list on everyone.
- imkingdavid needs to be replaced.

[Grimgroove]

Rach died in that game, that's why she's not active there anymore.
Meta Rach instead and you'll see she has been quite active the last 5 days, just not in this topic.

[Grimgroove]

Maybe we can just lynch the slot?

[Grimgroove]

I know :p
What happens if no replacement is found though?
And it's not entirely unlikely we need two more replacements.
Deadline extension, yet again?

[Grimgroove]

We can restart this game again, calling it "Newbie 1368 - There will never be a title nor an ending"

[Grimgroove]

Welcome enomis! We'll keep as quiet as we can until you can catch up

[Grimgroove]

It's obvious RachMArie is scum, she's not even trying anymore.

[Grimgroove]

Hey Eno, I realize you can't read everything from the game, but since the start of D2 not that much has been said so maybe it would be a good start to just read everything from page 26, which makes it only 7 pages with few walls.

RachMarie's lurking is one of the main problems yes, and even though it's not a tell and she's lurking in other games too, I also met her in another game where she was town, and was more valiantly trying to avoid being lynched. Here she's at L-1, but check up on her latest posts. It's as if she's not even aware of that situation. She just talks about some general IC-stuff.

The only game content she has provided so far is a case on Syryana, which was very poor in all aspects. Whether or not this is bussing or grasping at a straw for getting a wagon going on on someone who's been under scutiny for a long time is still a dilemma, but what is clear for me is that her case on Syryana is NOT the result of scumhunting.

She's beenv ery lazy throughout this game,y et she claims to have an erntire meta-study on Syryana. This doesn't compute at all. The case is artificial and rubbish.

[Grimgroove]

You cannot dismiss all these arguments by her being sick. I was with her in the Micro-game 181, and yes, there too she wasn't the most active of the bunch. There too she didn't have many cases or arguments. But she did participate much more, she did defend herself, and she did give out reads that made sense within the confines of the game.

Calling that case she had on Syryana the result of a first glance is silly. Even though she hasn't been highly active, she's been with us since the start of the game, which was a month ago.

If this Real Life impediment is going to continue being an argument, I think RachMarie should ask for a replacement in case it really is. Using this as an argument isn't fair: we can't check it, and if it's the truth it hurts the game. Apologies if this sounds harsh, but this isn't the place for such kind of arguments. I'm playing within the confines of this topic, and maybe this forum, I don't want to have to take other matters into account.

[Grimgroove]

You cannot dismiss all these arguments by her being sick. I was with her in the Micro-game 181, and yes, there too she wasn't the most active of the bunch. There too she didn't have many cases or arguments. But she did participate much more, she did defend herself, and she did give out reads that made sense within the confines of the game.

Calling that case she had on Syryana the result of a first glance is silly. Even though she hasn't been highly active, she's been with us since the start of the game, which was a month ago.

If this Real Life impediment is going to continue being an argument, I think RachMarie should ask for a replacement in case it really is. Using this as an argument isn't fair: we can't check it, and if it's the truth it hurts the game. Apologies if this sounds harsh, but this isn't the place for such kind of arguments. I'm playing within the confines of this topic, and maybe this forum, I don't want to have to take other matters into account.

Micro 181 is how long ago? We are talking about ongoing games(where she have her inpending crisis). If this is the case, don't you think you should leave her to day 2, since she have sorted out her crisis, to have a better read of her instead of lynching her,(which is a random lynch to me) now. And She said her computer died in the very first post? So i assume she has this crisis over the entire day 1. If you want to say she is scum for lurking, give me at least some meta where she lurks when scum. That will be mroe convincing?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=28648, it ended two days ago, so pretty recent. ISO her there and see the difference.

This already is Day 2. How long do you suggest we wait? Until LyLo maybe?

Stop saying that "lurking" is the only thing we've got on her. Read.

[Grimgroove]

So? That shows her meta as town. You are suppose to find her meta as scum.

It's right here, under your nose. The fact that her play here is different from her play as town should already tell you something. And yes, 181 was played under the same difficult circumstances for RachMarie, I heared them all.

Let me ask you this: do you think the case on RachMarie I (we) am (are) presenting is scummy?

[Grimgroove]

On page 28, you had Syr as scum and yet you vote Rach? I understand you wanting to get something out of Rach. But you are still having your vote on her although she's on L1? There are 5 more pages though to this page.

Yes, becuase Syryana actually responds to cases and arguments. As before, at times when i consider him scummy,h e comes up with a defense that I find convincing enough, or at least more convincing that what other people present as a defense or case.

[Grimgroove]

well i see the rach thing in 2 ways
rach is at L1 and inactive:
A if she is town she doesn't care and isn't going to add to the game
B her illness is bad enough that even pointing a fos in her direction gives me a guilt trip
and if rach is back to null.. syrana/mothrax?

not to sound cold but that kind of outside information can lead to an unlynchable scum

Have a better read on day 2. She would have no excuses left.

Again: this IS Day 2.

What DID you actually read in this game? It's even in the topic-title.

[Grimgroove]

You are like ignoring her meta as scum? She plays actively as scum. She plays actively as town. WTF? You are like using evidence to fit your reads.

I generally don't use meta. It's you who decided to bring up other games you are in with her, and I felt I was in a position to counter that argument with an example of my own experience. I have no scum-meta on her, I have town-meta on her and it's not the same as here. If you don't want to bother reading this entire thread, I don't see why you expect me to read through entire games with RachMarie as scum in order to get her scum-meta. Fitting what with what now?

Lynching Lurkers is anti-town. Scummy would have to depend on case by case basis. Why are you trying to use WE? Are you trying to tell me since there is 3 or 4 of you making the same case, and there are only 2 scums, therefore your case can't be scummy because 3or 4 person is making it?

1. This is more than simply lynching a lurker, as has beens tated repeatedly.
2. I use "I" because I do want to take some form of personal responsability in this case against her, but I put "we" in brackets because I did not want to give the impression I'm the only one who's been actively trying to make a case against her. Didn't want to sound like a douche. Any other inferences you make were not intended by me, I simply asked you a question.

[Grimgroove]

I'll only be able to post in depth tomorrow. Syryana: I think your vote was better in the place it was.

Enomis: Do you prefer a no lynch over a RachMarie lynch? Keep in mind there's not many active players around. What is your proposed course of action for this daystage?

@mod

: I would also call for a deadline extension. With mothrax we have a flaker here, already since he replaced in, and it's hurting the game at this stage.

RachMarie is scum. Enomis I'm not so sure yet, I can imagine that replacing in like that disables him from getting the general feel RachMarie has been giving us throughout these past weeks.

[Grimgroove]

Grim how about the fact that you and Syr were the only ones on BOTH wagons (before Syr switched over to Eno that is) ?

That's 50% hypocrisy (you were on LnGrrrR's wagon as well) and 50% OMGUS (you're voting me so you're scum). This is not a case.

Actually, you've been promising a VCA and study of the LnGrrrR lynch. Since I don't see this coming any time soon, could you re-iterate your reasons for being okay with an LnGrrrR lynch, aside from not wanting a No Lynch?

I really though want to lynch the scummiest person.

Self-voting is frowned upon, but be my guest.

[Grimgroove]

@Homertve: Indeed, it is growing ever more likely this is the case.

[Grimgroove]

Sorry. Which one?

[Grimgroove]

I can't find the one you're referring to specifaclly, but when it comes to the scumslips:

Syryana thought he found one of both me and Candillan. Both were not considered scumslips by anone else because of a lack of basic logic. When Syryana realized this mistake, he re-assessed his read on both me and Candillan.

I found a supposed scumslip by Syryana where he stated I can (pretend to) make good cases as both town and scum. At that point he only knew me as scum due to the cancelled scum, which I thought meant that he KNEW is was town this time by saing that. Only scum would know that and still attack me like he did.

The scumslip wasn't as strong as I thought it was, so I'm not sure in how far it should be called one.

What do you think of RachMarie's responses to your questions? And to your points raised against Syryana? Don't you feel she might be buddying with you? She agrees with your case once you ask her about it, without any further comments. Was this the kind of answer you were looking for when you asked her about what she thought about it?

[Grimgroove]

Who is the one of the other town in your scum triangle. How can one be town yet be in your scum triangle?

Do you only have two scum-suspects at any given time of the game just because you know there's only two scumroles?

Knowing that one of the triangle is not scum is based on facts and knowledge about the set-up, but the triangle consists of suspects and there's no reason to limit them to two if more than two act suspiciously.

Why do you want everything spelled out for you? You've basically been asking to repeat the last 30 pages for you step by step, asking questions that basic logic and goodwill can answer. i have the feeling you're trying to wear us out somehow with all these questions.

Time to put you to work:
Of the questions you have asked, which have already been helpful to you?
What reads have you got so far, based on the interactions you had with people?

About the case on RachMarie, I think her own behaviour since you got here speaks for itself. You can call it random as much as you want, but after all this time I know better.

[Grimgroove]

@ Grim and Syr

What about others besides me? You both are tunneling something fierce here, and I want to determine whether it is town tunneling or scum tunneling. Pretty sure based on VCA that one of you is scumz but not both. I want to find out which one it is.

Are you actually saying I didn't bother looking at anyone else besides you? Because everyone's who's followed this game will know this not to be true. Why are you doing this?

Also very curious about that VCA. I don't see much analysis. all you've done is compare the wagon on you with the wagon on LnGrrR and looked for the overlaps. What about the motivations for being on the wagons?

Glad to see some form of engagement in the last sentence though. What is your plan of action?

Also see 866, question waiting for you there.

Welcome Majify. By the looks of it we've got at least three IC-profiles here, so this game should become quite interesting indeed

[Grimgroove]

Jiffy

Candi is dead

He was the doc and the N1 NK

Are you giving me the silence treatment?

As an addendum: I don't like how RachMarie is turning her own lurkishness against those calling her out for it.
I know town-Marie as showing understanding towards points raised against her, yet here she refuses that her lurking has in fact been scummy.

Consider for a moment that there is scum lurking, m

Are you receiving the same treatment in every game RachMarie? Or are we just being particularly mean?

[Grimgroove]

Jiffy

Candi is dead

He was the doc and the N1 NK

Are you giving me the silence treatment?

As an addendum: I don't like how RachMarie is turning her own lurkishness against those calling her out for it.
I know town-Marie as showing understanding towards points raised against her, yet here she refuses that her lurking has in fact been scummy.

Consider for a moment that there is scum lurking, m

Are you receiving the same treatment in every game RachMarie? Or are we just being particularly mean?

[Grimgroove]

That post departed too early, let me finish my sentence:

Consider for a moment that there is scum lurking, making sure "lurking" is the only argument that can be brought forward against them (I want to re-iterate that this is not the case her since there are other things besides lurking in my view, though some contend everything stems from her lurkishness), wouldn't the way to react to our arguments be exactly like how RachMarie is doing it? Villifying those calling out the lurkers?

I think a town-lurker would be more forthcoming and understanding when he is being called out for lurking.

[Grimgroove]

Ok my final reads are such:
I have strong

town

reads on

Homer, Eno.

I have weak

town

reads on

Grim, Rach.

(Note: Associatives will condemn either one of these players as scum depending on different flips)
I have a weak

scum

read on

Core.

I have a strong

scum

read on

Syryana.

VOTE: Syryana

I'm heading out to go get intoxicated. Peace.

Could you explain those reads? Especially those of the people that have wagons behind them, namely Syryana and RachMarie. During your overview you had quite some criticism towards RachMarie (calling her a possible scumpartner, the LnGrrrR lynch, the Caesar-fluff), yet here you have her as a slight townread.

[Grimgroove]

@Grim:

Its this:

Wait i read up that post, i still don't see any scumslip thingy. If it's the one Homer is talking about, it isn't a scumslip at all. I find it weird that you think a scumslip on you is an actual case when you can't make a scumslip if you are town. What? You are also saying "you twisting words to make other people scummy" is a decent case? So you admit to doing this? WTF were you doing.

I don't understand why other people think it's a scumslip. Mind enlightening me?

Basically, you are saying the case on you which is "Twisting words to make other people scummy" is a decent case.As shown here:

There's a decent case against me: the "scumslip", the 180 on Grim, "twisting words to make people look scummy"

Therefore, if you think it's a decent case, you must be twisting words in some instances? Or are you going to give me "I understand why other people think i am twisting words, but i am not" Argument. It does not work this way bro. Because if you are not twisting words and other people think you are, IT IS NOT A DECENT CASE AT ALL.

@enomis, I didn't ignore you, I thought I had already responded to this by ways of post [post]876[/quote], where I gave you my view on the scumslips.
The argument that you tell Syryana not give you would be valid I think. Town makes wrong cases very regularly, but just because they're wrong doesn't mean they're scum.
I don't like it when someone start going off about "twisting words". The demarcation between "twisting words" and "misinterpreting words" is very thin. Too tin for comfortably using it as a stand-alone argument.

[Grimgroove]

Syr is scum from vote hopping, jumping opportunistically on wagons.

Rach is still slightly town because I have experience with reading her. However her play has been troublesome so she

has moved from strong town

to just barely leaning town; I have associative tells with certain players that will better discern her alignment.

When and why was she strong town?

[Grimgroove]

@Grim: Yet Syr think other people saying that Syr is twisting words is a decent argument?

Is this a question?
I disagree with the view that saying that someone is "twisting words" is a valid argument, unless we're talking about a blatant misrep. So I disagree with Syryana in this regard.
But I don't think this makes him scummy.

[Grimgroove]

I disapprove of your avatar change, scum. And you have seen nothing of spite yet.
VOTE: Enomis

Syryana, care to explain your move away from the RachMarie wagon on to the enomis one? Is enomis a stronger scumread for you, or do you just think his wagon will get more support?

[Grimgroove]

Syr, are you really insisting this case of lurking = scumtell on her

or are you doing this to spite me

.

?

[Grimgroove]

@Grim:

Let me phrase this another way. Why did you think Syr could think other people think he is twisting words is a decent case. Can you see his logic for saying that? Or is it just agreeing to a case to make the case weaker.(Yes, agreeing to case on you can be a scum tactic to make the case weaker).

Because of the fine demarcation-line I was talking about earlier, where do you draw the line between someone misunderstanding you and someone consciously trying to twist your words?
He doesn't say he twisted words, but he's also not saying people are being entirely unreasonable for thinking he did because he misinterpreted stuff (notably two supposed scumslips).

Yes, the question mark is addressed to you, why would Syryana want to spite you?

[Grimgroove]

1. Grimgroove - leaning town
3. homertve - leaning scum

Hmm.
What's the difference between me and homertve? We're both pushing the same wagon for the same reasons.

[Grimgroove]

1. Grimgroove - leaning town
3. homertve - leaning scum

Hmm.
What's the difference between me and homertve? We're both pushing the same wagon for the same reasons.

Your point being?

That your reads list doesn't seem to make sense in this regard.
You didn't answer the question.

[Grimgroove]

My take on it:

The deadline is close.
Most people have RachMarie in their scumlist (Syryana, homertve, enomis, Core_H86, Grimgroove), so she should be the one lynched.
Get her at L-1 and let her claim.
Lynch her after.
If it's wrong: lynch enomis and Majify.
If it's correct lynch Majify.

Maybe I'm horribly, horribly wrong and Syryana is scum anyway, in which case I take my hat off to him for fooling me the way he did. It would be evil, but damn, it would be good play.

homertve and Core_H86 are very close simply being conftown for me. Lately I haven't seen a single thing that could make me think anything but that.

[Grimgroove]

Also your idea of putting me in the lynch pool regardless of Rach's flip 1) Means you should be voting me,

First thing's first.
You just got here and your slot is practically devoid of information, since your predecessors said nothing.
But you already established you're not sincere through your reads, so yes, you deserve to be lynched later for it if nothing better comes up. Enomis gives me more the impression he could be misguided town, in case I'm not the one misguided.
Don't call me retarded, even if you mean it and think it objectively to be true. It's irrelevant and it won't in any way make me sway in the direction you want me to.

[Grimgroove]

Also your idea of putting me in the lynch pool regardless of Rach's flip 1) Means you should be voting me,

First thing's first.
You just got here and your slot is practically devoid of information, since your predecessors said nothing.

Yet you feel ready to certify me as scum based on no flips. Because that's exactly what putting me in the lynching pool regardless of a Rach flip means.

Deflect all you want; I'll call you out on this all day.

Process of elimination (I gave you my strong townreads, my gut screams Syryana is scum), your initial "strong townread" on RachMarie that can simply not be explained (you'll realize as soon as you try), your current "weak townread" on her despite having pointed to so many things against her.

But you already established you're not sincere through your reads

Uh,

what?

MAybe you should add a touch of color to that "what", to further stress your fake surprise.

so yes, you deserve to be lynched later for it if nothing better comes up.

Ok; putting aside the fact that you have a faulty premise... You think my reads are insincere, and so

I deserve to be lynched later

if nothing better comes up?

You are either the scummiest or worst player I've ever run into on this site. Potentially both.

Yes, you just repeated what I said and called it stupid. That's not an argument.

Don't call me retarded, even if you mean it and think it objectively to be true. It's irrelevant and it won't in any way make me sway in the direction you want me to.

So? Tell me what it means in regards to scumhunting, what it doesn't mean, and give a

real

answer as to why I shouldn't call you what you are;

dumb as fucking bricks.

A real reason? It offends me and takes away the joy from my game. I'm here to have fun and you are getting in the way of that by being unnecessarily rude. What's wrong with a respectful disagreement anyway? Doesn't provide the same charismatic aura you're going for?

[Grimgroove]

Explain why RachMarie was such a strong townread for you initially.

[Grimgroove]

Be more specific.

[Grimgroove]

RachMarie, you know this guy apparently, is he always like this or did I do something special to evoke this?

[Grimgroove]

I don't know why you're townreading me, but you said why you were scumreading homertve:

So you have three people leaning scum. Of those three, who do you find the most scummiest? and why?

You. Because i find it weird that you decide to use one side of evidence (Grim) but not the other(mine). Basically, you just say Rach is suspicious for posting in other threads but not in here. When i gave you the example of why she didn't only not post in here, you find the other one more convincing. I have a feeling you are just sheeping the majority.

Basically, you disagree with his reasons for being on RachMarie's wagon. You said the same about me and my reasons, yet you read me as town. Sounds like conflicting opinions, and given they're coming from the same person, I'd say that's fishy.

[Grimgroove]

1 day before the deadline and all we get from activity is an abusive drunkard's ramblings? Seriously?

[Grimgroove]

You should vote RachMarie Core_H86. I realise it sounds very arrogant to be telling you what to do, but we are very close to the deadline, and she's disappearing under the radar again, even though she's omnipresent in the participants' scumreads. This ain't right.

[Grimgroove]

enomis, you will definitely have to reply to 974 before deadline ends, or I might just join Core and Syryana.

homertve, what is your view on the latest developments?

[Grimgroove]

18 hours left. And look at this activity. Unbelievable.

[Grimgroove]

10 hours.

[Grimgroove]

BTW, Rach is posting everywhere on this site in the last 24 hours. She's just ignoring this game. Again, just like before.

6 hours.

²

Just lynch her, it's pointless stalling.
Even if she does claim cop or something, there's no point in trying to get another wagon going with so little time left and so few people online.
No lynch is truly the worst thing that could happen right now, so yes, I'd say post 1000 should be a hammer.

[Grimgroove]

I'm not sure if he checked the topic, but I know for a fact Majiffy was online during this endphase, so it is possible he

chose

not to hammer.

pedit: Good!