Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[Grimgroove]

Almost done with my reads-list! Just something quick I just noticed (for imkingdavid), even though you obviously got the essence of it, I want to point out that this:

I used the scumtell-approach because I didn't know it wasn't true.

I am rewriting as:

I used the scumtell-approach because I thought it was false.

Because that is less confusing to me (double negatives and all). Also I'm assuming that "it" above means "the word being in a public communication"

is a bad re-write. The second quote is: I used the scumtell-approach because I thought it was true.
Later on you make clear that's how you understood it, but since the quotes stand out in your post I figured I'd better clarify.

[LnGrrrR]

Sorry for being unclear. What I'm talking about comes from the following conclusion in my post:

Conclusion: Because Grim did not know it was wrong, and because doing this as scum would be basically suicidal (i.e. it would fail and bring suspicion on him), and because Grim did end up doing it, this can not be a scum slip.

By that logic, it makes sense to me to assume that if he was scum he would not have tried to point out Crand's original "scum tell" (the whole "darling" thing). If he would not have done that as scum, I find it easy to make the logical leap that because he did it, he probably isn't scum. After all, I can find no scum motive behind doing it, and as is stated in my quote, doing it as scum would be suicidal.

Does that make sense? It is 3:37am so I may just be not thinking straight.

I think that same sort of logic could be used to "clear" Syr in that sense. Syr could be a) scum trying to come up with a really flimsy case or b) be town with a really flimsy case. One could use that same argument (Why would Syr use such a poor argument as scum instead of lurking?) but it's too much WIFOM to me.

I don't think Syr is scum, I don't think Grim is scum. The argument felt pretty townie from both sides, both of them defending their viewpoints and pointing out various points about the others.

I have been somewhat quiet due to work, and not havin had time to really read through. That said, I think it's a lot of focus on something relatively minor.

The only person I have a truly strong scumread is on Candillan. I might be tunneling slightly.

[Grimgroove]

So here's my reads-list, feel free to ask questions about it in case not everything is clear, and of course to comment. I try to start with a general assertion, and then single out some posts that struck me as worthy of seperate comment.

@Syryana: I realize there's still some open points in our discussion (from both sides), I'll come back to it later but think I cover most of it during my read of you. I'm sure you'll give a heads up if I missed anything.

Looking at the activity overview I'm starting to fear that with my more than 70 posts I'm crowding out others out of this game and may have been a tad overbearing. As this is not my intention I'll try to turn it down a notch in order for others not to be too demotivated with catching up/offering own insights.

Syryana

: Looking at his posts, he's had a focus on Candillan and myself right from the start. Not just his RVS posts, but in his first ten-or-so posts the names "Candillan" and "Grimgroove" appear a lot. At first I thought this was due to the previous game where me and Candillan were scum together, but his renewed focus on us starting from post 198 has made me reconsider. This is not innocent in my eyes. It is at the very least anti-town, and given the arguments (notably the scumslips) presented against me as wel as Candillan were very weak I'd say they're scummy. I remember Syryana as more level-headed when it comes to making cases.

Aside from his arguments being weak, I also feel they're being constructed. I'll try to explain through examples below:

Post 67 I find interesting for two reasons, and both show Syryana having been a bit hypocritical later on in this topic: 1. He's using self-meta, something he later (and before) claimed to hate. When Candillan asked him why Syryana hadn't critisized my use of self-meta (when I referred to making silly arguments to try start off the Title Pending game just like I did here with yes-yep), Syryana said it was mainly because he missed it in the midst of walls (post 207). I think it was because this attack would have made him an obvious hypocrit. 2. He says homertv is making a mistake by assuming Syryana-Grimgroove is a scumpair and then later try to make the evidence fit the case. Syryana did the same thing with me and Candillan.

Post 73 is his first and only move away from the Candillan/Grimgroove trajectory, but only by a bit. Note that also in this post he's attacking me, mostly with arguments I refuted succesfully in post 36 (I say succesfully given his reaction in 37.

Post 114 he calls LnGrrrR's and my case (112) on Candillan interesting and wants to see where it goes. It goes further in post 162, but there's no real reaction to that from his side, apart from later on where he claims I only made semi-cases against Candillan without following them through. As is obvious from both 118 and 162 this is not quite true.
His post 169 sounds odd because of the sarcastic joke. I take it he agrees with me I'm in no need to calm down. While this post gives off the vibes I'm leaning town for him, there's a drastic switch in his next post 198 where the scumslip thing starts. About that I don't feel like adding too much, as I feel an adequate summary has been given by imkingdavid in post 253. I would like to point out Syryana's own scumslip in post 222, where he claims that I'm able to appear reasonable as either alignment. Given he only saw me as confscum, it's as if he's implying I'm conftown here in this phrase. Only scum would know I'm town but not treat me as such. I realize it's debatable but I find this slip more telling than the ones he had on me or Candillan.

Syryana's my main scumread, BUT I'm wary of a tunnel. His attack on me was quite intense and given my personal involvement I want to be wary of any OMGUS'ing or tunneling because of what happened. The switch in 198 was very striking, and right now I feel it's scummy. But the possibility exists this is just Syryana getting carried away with the scumslips he found, convincing himself he's right up to the point of no return. I was almost on the same track in my case against Crandaja but I got proven wrong more quickly (also because I shared the scumslip I thought I found immediately). But the fact that his arguments don't sound "honest" still makes him scummy in my book. Another reason why the argument would hold up for me but not for him is that the Crandaja-scumslip I found was objectively refutable, while those Syryana tried to use were more debatable and open to subjective interpretation, making it entirely possible for people to follow his train of thought. It's only when imkingdavid stated his opinion that Syryana turned around his cart, claiming he was feeling stupid.

I see LnGrrrR as his possible partner in the case Syryana is scum. I know it's a futile exercise at this stage, but this feeling is not the result of an exercise but of my gut having its say as well.

Candillan

is mister "I am town". Only he's not. If Syryana hadn't been my main scumread, and because I can't fathom the possibility that they're scum together, Candillan would be my top scumread. The main problem is similar to what LnGrrrR said earlier on in the thread: Candillan isn't scumhunting. Almost all of his energy and words is devoted to explaining his own actions,d efending himself. There's very little questioning, very little (refreshing) arguments he presents. He claims he's having a hard time reading people, but I find this kind of a "lazy" argument. I also don't like the way he's using his vote as an instrument. More details below:

Post 33 starts with an early townread of both homertve and Syryana. A townread that's never properly explained (aside from gut), yet one that persists in the entire topic.
Post 44 is a wagon vote, but as a vote I'd say it has been his only constructive one. Pity he already removes it two posts later in 47 for reasons that remain unclear until this day.
After this there is a string of posts where he's calling out for shaboo. That's all he does for a day.
In post 85 there's a serious vote which illustrates the point I tried to make earlier: his only posts that have content or those where he has to defend himself. And this defense also forms his way in to presenting a "case" of his own, typically against his attacker, in this case LnGrrrR. I call it OMGUS and he said: So what? Sue me! He then claimed it to be a mere reaction test, but never presented the results of this test and of what he was looking for exactly.
In post 103 he mentions a rivalry-ish thing with Syryana I'm completely unaware of. Candillan has been calling Syryana town during this entire game.
In post 105 he drops his vote on LnGrrrR after the latter makes some sort of minor acquiescence. There is no explanation given by Candillan. LnGrrrR sticks to the vote however.
Post 116: finally the vote on shaboo, after a lot of talk. I kind of had to pressure him into it (in his words: "remind him"), making this vote yet again an externally instigated move, and not the result of internal thought processes. This is not how a vote should be used.
Post 118 he says I'm no longer leaning town (when was I?) simply for being on his case. Something similar happens in post 162, where he claims I'm simply sheeping. Yet another attack only instigated by an attack on himself.
Post 142 is set within the long discussion between him and LnGrrrR about the latter reading me as town "like in the last game". I don't see how this discussion helped in finding scum, yet this is one of the only discussions that Candillan was active in and didn't involve himself as the topic.
Starting from post 204 the scumslip thing starts. As I already said I didn't find his defense towards Syryana's allegations very strong. Instead of calling the scumslip weak he actually showed an unnatural amount of understanding for Syryana's argument in the case Candillan would be town.

Candillan is also a strong scumread. I see an associative tell with shaboostein's slot based on the bussing (at least I see it as bussing).

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

shaboostein/mkfuba

: Zero read, aside from the association I see with Candillan and maybe RachMarie.

RachMarie

is find anti-town to say the least, and possibly scum. Okay, she has not been very active in the Title Pending game either, and there she was town, but here her behaviour strikes me as a bit more scummy because she hasn't answered any of the questions that have been asked to her and she's being a tad hypocritical in her "case" against shaboostein (it's not a case, but it's the only thing that resembles it coming from her). Posts 220 and 221 (where I point out why I find her post 43 scummy) kindly reminded her to do answer some of the questions asked to her, but no dice. She puts a lot of emphasis on shaboostein and his replacement not being active, but that's quite rich coming from her. Post 271 rubbed me the wrong way especially. "People like shaboostein" only include Ravenpaw (of which she said she was sorry to see her go) and herself. This is a cheap shot at shaboostein for reasons that she's guilty of herself. Also the fact that one person is not active doesn't mean you can't get any reads from anyone else. Yet she claims this is the main difficulty, and I call BS on that argument, plain and simple. Scummy. Yes, this is my third scumread, without counting the associative tells, but I can't help it if you guys decide to act all scummily. Up to you to show me where I'm wrong.

LnGrrrR

: I don't find him as pro-active as in the "Title Pending" game. He hasn't been very open-minded in starting new cases or participating in scumhunting by others. He's mainly been tunneling on Candillan (which I see he now admits to in his latest post), a case he started early in the game (post 74 and never really dropped, despite many other things (that are not "minor" as he puts it) presenting themselves and the discussion between him and Candillan dying out around post 104. The only other time he does present an effort to try a case against someone else is against Crandaja in post 102, which was prompted by Ravenpaw's question and seriously flawed, which he admits to shortly after. Post 177 also gives me scumvibes, as I already explained. It felt like trying to get a piece of both sides of the argument, trying to soothe both me and Crandaja. The fact that if I would use the "yes yep" thing later in the game is entirely irrelevant (I didn't and will not), yet he's adding it. If find this addition very odd, and the motives I see: 1. He's trying to make up for his "buddying" towards me (calling me town while nobody else does, there's even disagreement on how similar I act compared to the previous game from what I gather, yet he's claiming that I do behave the same. Even I disagree with that, given the negative attention I have not been entirely able to get into the game as much as I'd like to) by awkwardly showing others I'm not outside of his scope of criticism. 2. As I personally feel this entire yep-yes thing has been dragging on long enough, I also see it as an easy way to come off as a sensible guy who sees both sides of the story. Too easy and with no added value. (this was a copy-paste of my earlier arguments against it in case you were having a déjà-vue).

Compared to others he's not as scummy in my eyes, but he's definitely not on my townpile either. Would very much like to see more of him.

Ravenpaw

: What's clear is that she hasn't put any effort into this game. She just participated in some discussions that happened to be going on while she was posting, but without ever putting her heart into it. The only things of some interest were her dropping her case against me but not her argument in post 125 and her vote on LnGrrrR, which I thought was sensible and refreshing at the time in post 156. Slightly town, but how much can you tell from the little she has done...

homertve

: finally a townread. Starting from post 64 basically everyone agreed on him acting as town. Though I personally feel that 64 was a bit too early for a reads list (resulting in arguments that had to be countered by Syryana, after which homertve explained it was mainly a hunch), it did show a certain openness in sharing thought processes and theories that can possible move the game along. He has never stopped doing this, and never shunned giving his opinion on ongoing discussions or people, resulting in another reads list in post 139. Liking him so far.

Crandaja/imkingdavid

: Also townread, though I didn't have that at all with Crandaja. Where Crandaja was tunneling, overly defensive and OMGUS, imkingdavid has shown only rational opinions and arguments that make sense. His summaries of what's going on are unbiased and show every side of the story, allowing others to step in without having to fear they're being withheld some possible truths. I'm thinking Crandaja just took my "darling" attack on him a bit too personally without trying to consider the possible town-motive for such an attack, bwhich I guess is understandable.



Well, yes, it's between the two on top of my list, and I feel Syryana has given me most reasons to do this:

VOTE: Syryana
(this is L-2)

(yes, I had a lot of time today)

[Grimgroove]

And I messed up only one tag. Yay me.

@mod: Could you fix that [/post] tag please? Thanks!

Fixed! Let me know if the links aren't what you wanted for some reason.

[Syryana]

Why do you think it's "the scummiest post in the game"? I think at this point you are trying to deflect us from your scumslip to other's supposed scumslips.

I liked the way David analyzed things. I think your 289 is you trying to cover your not-so-honest mistakes and I don't think you are a "dumb" or "idiot". I think you're just a scum.

What is it with all these replacements requests in this game? Is it normal?

Largely because I got to the point of confirmation bias about it. I reread the post today, and I realized that what I thought were deflections were actually just legitimate questions and that I was placing too much importance on Candillan's appeal to probability.

I did not make a scumslip.

When I flip town, who will be your scumreads?

[Syryana]

No big deal, but for the record, the last quote in your post (#289) you have attributed to yourself, when I actually said it.

I'm not interested in credit. Stuff happened, Grim townread resulted.

Scum slip: "is to be" vs "would be to be"
It's the same thing you tried to pull on Grim.

Noted.

[imkingdavid]

I think that same sort of logic could be used to "clear" Syr in that sense. Syr could be a) scum trying to come up with a really flimsy case or b) be town with a really flimsy case. One could use that same argument (Why would Syr use such a poor argument as scum instead of lurking?) but it's too much WIFOM to me.

I don't think Syr is scum, I don't think Grim is scum. The argument felt pretty townie from both sides, both of them defending their viewpoints and pointing out various points about the others.

The thing is, I feel that the logical progression that (in my mind) very likely clears Grim is much more probable than what you just mentioned about Syr. Whether or not Syr is scum is definitely WIFOM. Whether or not Grim is town, I feel, is not quite so much WIFOM because it makes sense in my head and I cannot make it make sense that he is scum without assuming he is committing a very large gambit. I may, of course, be wrong.

Anyway, I guess I shouldn't continue to derail discussion by thinking about this. But please keep in mind that I am going to be making decisions with the assumption that Grim is town until I can find or am provided with strong evidence to him being scum.

The second quote is: I used the scumtell-approach because I thought it was true.
Later on you make clear that's how you understood it, but since the quotes stand out in your post I figured I'd better clarify.

You're right, my bad.

P-edit

I'm not interested in credit. Stuff happened, Grim townread resulted.

I wasn't implying "credit" for anything. I was simply pointing out, without it mattering too much to me, but just so others wouldn't be confused when reading, that it was something I had said, not something you had said.

[Syryana]

Sorry to hear that but why is it only after imkingdavid said his thing you realized this? I said almost the exact same thing with regards to my supposed slip in 284 and you didn't even respond to that.

@Imkingdavid: If you're not comfortable with that reasoning making me almost as good as conftown, you can always try taking it into WIFOM, but I don't think that would be a healthy exercise.

About the Caesar-thing I feel I have to insist on apologizing again (without expecting Syryana to accept those apologies, but I kind of feel bad about it), but I really felt the comparison was more funny than mean at the time. At least it was meant this way. I happen to like metaphors and thought it worked quite well in this case. I shall refrain from this practice in the future.

You're fine, I'm not offended. And I didn't realize it when you said it because you did not explain the logical jumps in simple words of one syllable or less like david did. Besides I was so far convinced you were the scum you could probably have posted your role PM and I'd have called you a liar at that point.

I'll take a look at David's logic again later after I get done responding to the rest of this.

Pedit: Okay.

[Syryana]

I don't think Syr is scum, I don't think Grim is scum. The argument felt pretty townie from both sides, both of them defending their viewpoints and pointing out various points about the others.

Why not? What do you think of the arguments against me? What do you think of my "scumslip"?

[Candillan]

@LnGrrrR, might be slightly tunnelling? Hahahahahaha.

More posts later when I'm home.

[Syryana]

I'll deal with the part of this that concerns me first, this topic has more than enough walls in it.

Post 67 I find interesting for two reasons, and both show Syryana having been a bit hypocritical later on in this topic: 1. He's using self-meta, something he later (and before) claimed to hate. When Candillan asked him why Syryana hadn't critisized my use of self-meta (when I referred to making silly arguments to try start off the Title Pending game just like I did here with yes-yep), Syryana said it was mainly because he missed it in the midst of walls (post 207). I think it was because this attack would have made him an obvious hypocrit. 2. He says homertv is making a mistake by assuming Syryana-Grimgroove is a scumpair and then later try to make the evidence fit the case. Syryana did the same thing with me and Candillan.

You're absolutely right, on both counts. I

did

use self-meta even though I hate it. I also am guilty of the same thing I warned homer against: I found what I thought were damning scumslips from both of you and went balls to the wall to prove myself right.

His post 169 sounds odd because of the sarcastic joke. I take it he agrees with me I'm in no need to calm down. While this post gives off the vibes I'm leaning town for him, there's a drastic switch in his next post 198 where the scumslip thing starts. About that I don't feel like adding too much, as I feel an adequate summary has been given by imkingdavid in post 253. I would like to point out Syryana's own scumslip in post 222, where he claims that I'm able to appear reasonable as either alignment. Given he only saw me as confscum, it's as if he's implying I'm conftown here in this phrase. Only scum would know I'm town but not treat me as such. I realize it's debatable but I find this slip more telling than the ones he had on me or Candillan.

I was making an "Anger Management-esque" joke at you, yes. I was in fact leaning town on you at the time. Then, in my next post, I was approximately like "Is that... yes! It's a scumslip!", at which point the whole balls to the wall snowball started.

Again, it's not a scumslip. I was mightily impressed at how townie you looked as scum last game and I find it a reasonable assumption to make that you can do it as town too. So I was telling homer (albeit in a roundabout way) that being reasonable and logical is not a towntell for you; it is null.

Syryana's my main scumread, BUT I'm wary of a tunnel. His attack on me was quite intense and given my personal involvement I want to be wary of any OMGUS'ing or tunneling because of what happened. The switch in 198 was very striking, and right now I feel it's scummy.

But the possibility exists this is just Syryana getting carried away with the scumslips he found, convincing himself he's right up to the point of no return.

I was almost on the same track in my case against Crandaja but I got proven wrong more quickly (also because I shared the scumslip I thought I found immediately). But the fact that his arguments don't sound "honest" still makes him scummy in my book. Another reason why the argument would hold up for me but not for him is that the Crandaja-scumslip I found was objectively refutable, while those Syryana tried to use were more debatable and open to subjective interpretation, making it entirely possible for people to follow his train of thought. It's only when imkingdavid stated his opinion that Syryana turned around his cart, claiming he was feeling stupid.

Not that I expect you to believe me, but the bolded is exactly what happened, for the record.

[Candillan]

Wait, before I leave, I must say that Syryana's 180 on Grim seemed unnaturally sudden. You go from him being scum to him being town in the span of a few hours? Who else do you see as scummy, then?

Preview Edit:
So it took a post from someone that wasn't Grim in order to get you to stop your tunnel on him?
That's bad practice. Even when you're tunnelling, you need to listen to what the other person is saying.
Or maybe you're scum trying to backpedal at 120mph.
You still think I'm scum, though, right? I don't feel as if much has been said in my defense, so that'd make sense.

[Syryana]

I don't even know anymore Cand, I need to step back from this game for a while. Come back later, with a clear head, reread everything. Most of my viewpoints are tainted by bias in one way or another at this point.

[Candillan]

TOWN
homer/david
Raven's replacement
Grim
Syryana/LnGrrrR
SCUM

Rach/Shaboo's replacement need to post because bleh

The things that made Syryana go Town-->Scum were the Slip Grim pointed out and the sudden 180 on Grim.
LnGrrrR isn't really active, aside from a tunnel he hasn't been pushing as of late. Add Grim's point on how he "isn't treading on any toes", and you get a scumread.
David has been giving me good feelings. He's approaching situations logically and solving them, but not in the "satisfy both sides" way LnGrrrR has been.

Pedit: What is making you reconsider your read on me? I don't think any of my actions warrant an epiphany-like reread of my slot.

Also, we're almost all biased at least somewhat.

[Candillan]

Oh yeah, VOTE: LnGrrrR
Not so sold on a Syryana wagon quite yet.

@Mod, how long until deadline, since we're getting an extension?

[Grimgroove]

TOWN
homer/david
Raven's replacement
Grim
Syryana/LnGrrrR
SCUM

Rach/Shaboo's replacement need to post because bleh

The things that made Syryana go Town-->Scum were the Slip Grim pointed out and the sudden 180 on Grim.
LnGrrrR isn't really active, aside from a tunnel he hasn't been pushing as of late. Add Grim's point on how he "isn't treading on any toes", and you get a scumread.
David has been giving me good feelings. He's approaching situations logically and solving them, but not in the "satisfy both sides" way LnGrrrR has been.

Pedit: What is making you reconsider your read on me? I don't think any of my actions warrant an epiphany-like reread of my slot.

Also, we're almost all biased at least somewhat.

What puts Ravenpaw so high in that townlist?

I somehow find Syryana's defense strangely convincing, despite the lack of actual arguments. It just sounds very genuine. Not really sure what to make of that.

[Candillan]

The little she did post looked good.

Also, it's easy to see it as genuine when someone's stroking your beard.

[Candillan]

Oh also, the only suspicions cast upon her were because of Crand, and people see David as town .

[Grimgroove]

Also, it's easy to see it as genuine when someone's stroking your beard.

Are you suggesting an AtE? You might be right. Maybe I'm getting too soft.

But not on you. for you did not respond to my read on you.

Also, what do you think of the little that RachMarie did post? She posted almost as much as Ravenpaw, yet you did not deem it necessary to comment on that or, alternatively, to call her to action several times like you did for shaboo. Could you explain why?

[Candillan]

Fair point. I'm phoneposting right now, and it doesn't do well with large blocks of text. I will respond when I get home, though.

Rach's posting seemed to be fluff. She hasn't said almost anything in terns of actual content, though she's been posting elsewhere. Other people were telling her to post, so I didn't feel the need to contribute on that front. On the other hand, I saw close to no one telling Shaboo to post, so I did that instead.

[homertve]

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

Can you elaborate on that? I don't understand why do you think they can't both be scums?

When I flip town, who will be your scumreads?

First, you mean "if", not "when".
Second - Well, I do have other suspects as I already said before and there are other players to consider, such as shaboostein / mkfuba07, or rach, that didn't answer to what I asked her on 136 for example. Also, she almost didn't say anything about anyone except david.

I somehow find Syryana's defense strangely convincing, despite the lack of actual arguments. It just sounds very genuine. Not really sure what to make of that.

Woah, that's a total 180 from your mega-post. I have to think about that for awhile.

[mkfuba07]

My apologies for my delay in posting. I'm a somewhat slow reader, and this really comes out in mafia, particularly when I replace in. I've played enough to be aware of how people usually react when I just post to say "I'm here, and I'm reading," so I really wanted to be able to provide some of my thoughts on the game in my first post, instead of ending up just defending myself for a long time. I hit some snags, though, so I'm just doing the "hi, I'm reading" post I was trying to avoid. I figured I could at least get into the conversation while I'm catching up. I've read up to the beginning of p12, and am planning on getting caught up completely over the next hour (may or may not be able to post immediately, I'm at the will of my transporter). Let me know if there's anything specific you want me to talk about, otherwise I'll just start into who I find scummy (which is probably what you want most, anyway).

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think Syr is scum, I don't think Grim is scum. The argument felt pretty townie from both sides, both of them defending their viewpoints and pointing out various points about the others.

Why not? What do you think of the arguments against me? What do you think of my "scumslip"?

Maybe because Im relatively new, but I don't put a lot of stick in wordplay "scum slips". The whole "he said honestly, therefore he's scummy!" or "he said I would have but not I am" etc etc I don't really see as compelling arguments. The only types of those slips I find compelling are usually coupled with a poor (in my eyes) argument.

That's why I haven't really chimed in a lot about this; I don't think you really "caught" him, and I don't think he "caught" you either. You both seemed to be sincerely scumhunting and asking questions, and if either of you are scum trying to mislynch off a wrong present tense or something equally flimsy, you wouldn't be getting my vote.

[Grimgroove]

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

Can you elaborate on that? I don't understand why do you think they can't both be scums?

I think given the way they have acted towards each other it's quite difficult to defend the idea they're in a scumteam together. They put up quite a row among the two of them that went far beyond possible bussing. Let me know if you disagree and why.

I somehow find Syryana's defense strangely convincing, despite the lack of actual arguments. It just sounds very genuine. Not really sure what to make of that.

Woah, that's a total 180 from your mega-post. I have to think about that for awhile.

[/quote]
¨Please let me know your findings once you did. I wouldn't call it a 180 turn though, just considering the other side of the debate, just like I did in the mega-post itself. I find it's an exercise that keeps me healthy.

Something feels fishy about Candillan's 313, but too tired right now to put my finger on it. Be back tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

@LnGrrrR: What do you think about RachMarie?