I'm thinking one of the maffia from the previous game will be one again, and since it's not me, it must be him.
Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Still don't know what happened there. Will I ever?In post 13, Crandaja wrote:Hi everybody. Sorry for brutally crashing the last game into the ground!-
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Wow, well spotted by Crand though, can't believe we missed that ourselves during the game.
What do you mean, 'for real'? Don't you agree? A "yup" shows half-heartedness, where a "yes" would have shown more commitment to what you are saying.In post 18, Syryana wrote:
Are you for real?In post 17, Grimgroove wrote:VOTE: Syryana
A "yes" would have been more convincing than a "yup".
@Candillan: because it keeps things moving. A single static random vote doesn't do it for me, I prefer to move it around for minor reasons and see where that takes me.-
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In post 13, Crandaja wrote:Hi everybody. Sorry for brutally crashing the last game into the ground!
VOTE: Ravenpaw
Calling me darling gives me bad vibes.
Where did she call you darling?-
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My mistake, but I only looked at the last couple of posts by Ravenpaw, which is only sensible.
I feel my point still stands.
Why on earth would Crandaja be referring to a word in a post made 12 days ago? Why would that kind of thing stick and why would bad vibes from that post be carried over to a new game?
He didn't mention it gave him bad vibes back then, why now?
I would also prefer it if you would let Crandaja answer that question this time around. Don't see why you're so eager jumping to his defense.-
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I was only half serious. But it's a fact that I don't like the word "yup", and I don't consider it the same as "yes".In post 27, Syryana wrote:
I asked if you were for real because I couldn't tell if you were serious or trolling. And I'm not entirely sure what planet you're from, but on mine, yup means yes.
Yes is straightfoward, the result of years of communication turning into custom, a best practice when it comes to answering affirmatively.
Yup is the bastard form of yes, used when trying to portray an image of cool and carelessness. A seemingly off-hand answer, but just that fact makes it blatantly not offhand. When used in speech it's is easily mumbled, whereas a yes is unmumblable.
It's called a "yes or no"-question for a reason, and not a "yup and nah-question".
I'm not a native speaker, this is true. But I do assure you I come from the planet Earth and will not be using telepathy in order to win this game.-
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Why not answer it right away? You even took your time exploring the other topic for the word "darling".In post 20, Syryana wrote:
That's pretty much what happened.In post 19, Candillan wrote:Basically, Edos accidentally put the link to the Scum QT in the role PM examples. Crand saw them, and knew we were scum. He told Edos about this, and then asked to be replaced because he can't scumhunt when he knows who the scum are. Edos posted saying that Crand was being replaced because of the debacle, which ended up unintentionally confirming his slot as town. Because of that, Edos figured it would be better to just restart the game.
...At least that's what I think happened.
Pedit:
Grim, why are you re-RVSing?
Syryana, you too. Unless you believe that your vote on me was a legitimate vote.
I will answer your question to me in a bit.
And about me being opportunistic, I don't think that's really an argument. I saw a possible scumslip, let my enthousiasm get me carried away and indeed saw an opportunity to lynch scum. Maybe it's opportunistic yes, but that kind of opportunism doesn't make me scum.-
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At this stage of the game you can't seriously expect more than that? There is nothing to work with in order to roll out solid arguments, just RVS'ing and some random comments that have got little to do with the game. How can I obvtown after 1 page? How can you expect me to make a great case against someone who posted once?In post 32, Syryana wrote:
I'm not so much defending Crand as attacking you. It raises my suspicions when someone that played the way you did last game (i.e. made great arguments and generally obvtowned the slot) starts shooting off half-cocked and making arguments like these (e.g. "darling, was that a SCUMSLIP?!" or "I don't like the word yup, you must be scum").In post 28, Grimgroove wrote:My mistake, but I only looked at the last couple of posts by Ravenpaw, which is only sensible.
I feel my point still stands.
Why on earth would Crandaja be referring to a word in a post made 12 days ago? Why would that kind of thing stick and why would bad vibes from that post be carried over to a new game?
He didn't mention it gave him bad vibes back then, why now?
I would also prefer it if you would let Crandaja answer that question this time around. Don't see why you're so eager jumping to his defense.
And I did the exact same thing in the beginning of the last game, calling RachMarie out on a "silly thing" like complaining to the mod about the colour he uses. You didn't have a problem with it then, so somehow I feel my role in the previous game has more to do with your suspicions than this one.
And even though I realize it's probably not in my benefit to refer to the last game and say that I play the same way, but I expect I will play the same way. The main reason I like to play these games is to hunt for scummy behavior. It's true that it's easier and more rewarding as town, but even as scum that's what I enjoy doing.
I called you the hardest one to play against as scum, mainly because it was hard to portray you as scummy and because you defended yourself very well. given that opinion of you, why would I, as scum, try to attack you after all with mainly semantic differences between "yes" and "yup"? This argument does not compute.
I didn't answer it because my re-RVS post/vote on you was intended to garner a reaction from you. I hadn't as yet gotten it, so I refused to answer Cand at that time. What I was looking for: if you were serious I figured it was an opportunistic attack to paint me as scummy early, since at the end of last game you admitted I'm one of the biggest obstacles to your scum wincon.Grimgroove wrote:Why not answer it right away? You even took your time exploring the other topic for the word "darling".
And about me being opportunistic, I don't think that's really an argument. I saw a possible scumslip, let my enthousiasm get me carried away and indeed saw an opportunity to lynch scum. Maybe it's opportunistic yes, but that kind of opportunism doesn't make me scum.
It wasn't a lie, it was an honest mistake. I only checked this topic, and for the other topic I just checked the comments after the game was over. I didn't take into account that it might be possible Crandaja would be referring to something from almost two weeks ago. I guess you have more efficient ways of browsing through a thread, but I wasn't planning to go to page 7 of 15 in order to find what Crandaja was referring to.As for taking the time to look in the other thread, you directly said there was no mention of it in this thread or title pending. I decided to verify that statement. Turns out it was a lie and I nailed you for it.
Like I said before, nothing more to go on than silly things at this stage. But at the same time, when it comes to silly things, I thought this was actually quite interesting to delve further into. Seeing how I didn't find the "darling" in the other topic, my reasoning of this silly thing actually being a scumslip is not as farfetched as you make it to be.And it is scummily opportunistic, because from my POV you seized on a silly thing, call it a scumslip, and voted Crand. Scum like mislynches.
The answer is: neither. I'm intending to play the same way as I did before, even though I'm town this time. And I feel that I do. I hop around looking for reactions, that's what RVS is to me, instead of making a random vote and leaving it there until something falls out of the sky.My main beef with you right now is that in the last game you obvtowned like crazy; excellent logic, walls of well reasoned arguments, good reads. This game, you're hopping all over everywhere, attacking me, attacking Crand; it's shooting from the hip playstyle. I can't decide if you're this different because it's your town play or if you've drawn scum again and you're breaking from your own playstyle so as not to get caught.-
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Who were you talking to here? I didn't see anyone pushing my wagon, just some RVS-votes and Syryana keeping a close eye on me.In post 43, RachMarie wrote: For those pushing Grims wagon do you have anything else besides the fact he was scumz in the aborted game? cause we rerolled and that is not good enough he has a higher chance of being town than scum since each roll for a game is independent of each other.-
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You don't seriously think I spent those 25 minutes entirely to searching for what you were referring to? Do you think that if I would have in fact found it, that I would lie about it and hope that nobody would notice? I already explained why I did not find it, even though you seem to think that is "flawed".In post 45, Crandaja wrote:
I have some problems with this. You ask where she called me darling, then 25 minutes later you say you can't see it in Title Pending. ISO button makes it really easy to see all of Raven's posts and one of the only interactions we had between one another was the one where she called me darling. Its really not hard to find if you looked in that thread (which you said yourself you did) especially not in 25 minutes.In post 28, Grimgroove wrote:My mistake, but I only looked at the last couple of posts by Ravenpaw, which is only sensible.
I feel my point still stands.
Why on earth would Crandaja be referring to a word in a post made 12 days ago? Why would that kind of thing stick and why would bad vibes from that post be carried over to a new game?
He didn't mention it gave him bad vibes back then, why now?
I would also prefer it if you would let Crandaja answer that question this time around. Don't see why you're so eager jumping to his defense.
The disagreement lies in the first part. I don't think it's flawed. I find it very odd you would be referring to something (a single word) from 12 days ago from a previous game. Like I said before, I did check the thread, but was only looking at the post game discussion, meaning I didn't make it to page 7. Obviously I should have been more thorough and I jumped to conclusions, but there was no bad intent. Just had my assumptions (that you would be referring to something more recent) wrong so to speak.I think your first statement that its only sensible to check the last few messages is flawed. If you think its not important to check the thread than it wouldn't have been so important for you to not find it there. Without doing the search how would you know if she said it or not? Why do you assume its from the scum QT without reading the whole thread?
I can live with that explanation, but if either of you would happen to flip scum I'll definitely remember this passage.When I was doing an RVS at the start of this game i didn't want to vote Grim right away to avoid getting him too close to L-1 without any discussion. I saw Ravenpaw's post and decided to vote her as my RVS. It was the only thing I really remember about her from last game.-
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Did you get your reading done by now?In post 42, LnGrrrR wrote:I skimmed quickly; the giant walls of text are a big clue.
VOTE: LnGrrrR
Thanks to the cancellation of the previous game I think I have some kind of a meta from most of you, and so far LnGrrrR seems to be the most different for some reason. He seems a lot less involved.-
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I don't like my "yes vs yup"-thing being calledstupidseveral times now, but I guess that given the opinion of the majority, it was. I still don't like "yups" and I never will, but maybe we're from a different generation.
Anyway, regardless of this, even if it was stupid, there's only so many ways of getting out of an RVS asap, and I'm still glad we made it out relatively fast, even with half of the people not participating.-
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Then how is our argument different from any other argument that's been had here? Why do you get the impression our argument is planned and others are not?In post 69, homertve wrote:
The argue itself doesn't sound planned, but you could plan that you'll argue about something without planning the details.In post 67, Syryana wrote:
You have a theory: Grim and I are scum together. However, in reference to this point, you are making the evidence fit the case, rather than making the case fit the evidence. I agree with you that the "yes vs. yup" argument was extremely stupid, but does the exchange between Grim and myself sound forced and planned? What about that exchange makes you think he and I are scum together?In post 64, homertve wrote:Grimgroove - His RVS was Candillan. He then started a very stupid "yes vs. yup" discussion. If my theory is right, it could be planned by those two in advance.
He did, he called it a gutread in post 44
I don't know why he's leaning town on you. Maybe he needs to answer to that question.In post 67, Syryana wrote:
You are leaning town on Candillan because he pointed out the oddity in my post. Yet in the same post, he says he's leaning town on me for it. Why do you think that is? Also, did you see my reasoning near the bottom of that post as to why I'm voting Crand over Grim?In post 64, homertve wrote:Candillan - He points out in post 33 howSyryana's explainingGrimgrooveis a scum and then votingCrandis odd. I think it's another evidence of Syryana and Grimgroove both being scums. I hope I'm not tunneling here. Anyway, to me Candillan lean town right now.-
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You make it sound as if I didn't check the old game. Why?In post 78, Ravenpaw wrote:Grimgroove is a bit iffy to me. (...) but the fact he said he checked the old game but was proven that he didn't really does seem a wee bit suspect to me.-
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In post 74, LnGrrrR wrote:I think Grimgroove's point about starting off the other game on an equally silly charge (the color thing) has merit.
Syryana makes a good point above about Crandaja's defensiveness.
Homer, are you planning on reading the other game?
I think Candillans meta is to start every game with a scummy statement. I don't like the "Oh no not a wagon again on me for a scummy RVS", because it tends to disarm thoughts of actual scumminess. Additionally, in ISO he looks fishy: he votes Crand, then unvotes three posts later because he doesn't always want to be the third vote on a wagon. Seems very self conscious about his votes, and if he thought it was good to put pressure on Crand, why take it off? If he is worried about L-2, he could just ask for no claims at this time.
Also, Candillan hasn't scumhunted at all. Just look at his ISO, no challenges, a /barn here or there...
VOTE: CandillanThe quote above made me change my opinion. The main reason why I thought LnGrrrR was fishy (as I pointed out) was because he seemed a lot less involved: a silly RVS-vote after the RVS-stage, and a promise to read through everything (two or three pages I think at the time), but taking ages to do so.
This quote and his case against Candillan reminds me of the townie LnGrrrR we all know from "Title Pending" more.
And I'm liking his case on Candillan. I don't think it's that bad. Will IC Candillan myself later today, but at first sight I agree with LnGrrrr's arguments completely.-
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After Syryana's advice in the last game, I don't think it's a good idea to answer any of those questions. Doesn't that lead us into WIFOM automatically?In post 107, Candillan wrote:Sigh
I don't know
I guess we wait for someone to scumslip et al.
Random Question Time!
1. What do you guys prefer to play as? Scum or Town?
2. You're cop with a guilty. Do you claim immediately, or wait it out?
3. Do you tend to play aggressively, or more passively?
Also, you were the one saying meta-arguments are bullshit. All these questions are asking about meta. What's the added value of these questions according to you?-
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It's a fair argument, but when it comes to that "case" I feel I've already told you everything I could tell you about it in post 65. I didn't mean to make said implication, but understand why it would come off that way. But let's say I did mean to imply it. What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding?In post 81, Ravenpaw wrote:
Because apparently you only looked at my last few posts (which would've been post-game comments, not actual game play).In post 79, Grimgroove wrote:
You make it sound as if I didn't check the old game. Why?In post 78, Ravenpaw wrote:Grimgroove is a bit iffy to me. (...) but the fact he said he checked the old game but was proven that he didn't really does seem a wee bit suspect to me.
Also, this is why I feel so iffy about it:
That above sentence is troubling me because of the word "anywhere". You implied doing a thorough search when you said that, but your later story of only looking at my last few posts doesn't correlate with that.In post 26, Grimgroove wrote:I can't see this anywhere, neither here or in the "title pending"-game.-
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So I IC'd Candillan for today, the most active player in ammount of posts, so he gives you most to work with. Only thing I'll be able to do before the weekend I'm afraid. All in all I'd have to agree with LnGrrrR's case against him. Maybe not in LnGrrrR's first post, which was mainly a good thing because it showed more involvement from LnGrrrR again, but in the discussion following it he raised some good points. What I mainly don't like is that Candillan refuses any meta-arguments to be used again him, but in a devious way tries to use that meta to his advantage several times (which I'll try to show here). Claiming you consciously play differently every game so that your meta is useless is actually a meta-argument in itself. MAybe I should clarify further, but I think claiming you have "no meta", is making a statement about your meta and trying to use it as an argument in your advantage. I find it worrysome that Candillan is so involved with his meta, definitely for someone who claims to not have one.
What is the "if I recall correctly"-bit supposed to mean? How would you recall something like that? Granted, there wasn't much activity going on in "Title Pending", but to assume you remember all people's interactions seems strange, and pretending to do so seems unnaturally thoughtful.In post 29, Candillan wrote:I agree that it's kinda odd that he would bring that up of all things, but that's the only time, if I recall correctly, that Raven ever adressed Crand.
I do agree with Syryana that your vote on him did seem fairly opportunistic, though.
Also, that's not jumping to his defense, that's simply stating a fact. There's a difference.
Could you give me an example of when re-RVSing would not be fine?In post 24, Candillan wrote:Alright, that's fine then.
How have you not gave Shaboostein a lot of slack? all you did was call his name a couple of times. Careful bussing?In post 57, Candillan wrote:The Great Shaboostein...
That has a nice ring to it.
I'd give you more slack if you hadn't posted in the QT rather than here. >_>
Surprised nobody called him out on this before, but isn't this the most blatant OMGUS in the game(s) so far? LnGrrrR had never even been mentioned by Candillan before this, and now he's suddenly on his scum-reads, based on LngRrrR using meta for a case. Coming out of a game with all of us in it that got cancelled, I think it's only natural to do so. Syryana did the same with me, I did the same with LnGrrrR. Yet Syryana is Candillan's town read.In post 85, Candillan wrote: Bahahahahahahano
The truth is that I have an aura of scumminess around me that makes me an easy wagon for scum to hop on and town to follow.
Meanwhile, you're commenting on my meta when I told you that I hate meta arguments. You're speaking in hypotheticals as to what I'd do, and I don't like that.
For the record, I am assembling reads. I currently read you and Crand as scummy.
Your push on me based on a meta argument doesn't make sense. Also, that isn't my scum meta, if you were to look at the last game. I don't like your case, and it seems as if you're pushing on me to make yourself seem active.
I'm not so vote-happy because then it gives my votes less impact when they're actually laid down. I'm not afraid of putting someone to L-2 or whatever, that was purely coincidence.
All in all, this case is bad, and you should feel bad.
VOTE: LnGrrrR
Other posts coming in a minute.
Urgh. I like a good laugh, but people blaming having said weird things on "joking" are always scummy in my book.In post 93, Candillan wrote: 'twas a joke.
"I wasn't known to do that often" = meta-argument. And to be perfectly honest, I never associated you with someone who doesn't like voting or changing votes all the time. Anyway, I don't like the argument in the quote above, hard to put my finger on it but the logical conclusion that Crandaja took your vote seriously (did he?) because of your meta (did he?) doesn't really add up. And even if it does, it goes to show that meta IS useful and you are willing to use it in your gaming strategy.Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)
Could you clarify the second part of that statement? Who would be the buddy and who would be doing the accusing in this case?Because I don't see Raven as scummy? Also, it's bad practice to accuse your buddy of being scum.-
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I don't like how you're being so insistant on this. This constant repetition is not going to change what I already have said about it. I have already explained what I was trying to do: find scum. I thought I saw a scumslip and acted on it. I was wrong, but as I asked Ravenpaw before (which she left unanswered): What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding? An easy lynch? How would that even work? If Syryana hadn't found it, you yourself would still have been in the position to point out my mistake, as you already knew what you were referring to. As scum I would know for a fact that this wouldn't be a scumslip and that it would be an easily deflected attack. Then why would I do it? The fact that I actually believed in my argument is the only reason why I brought it up and thought it could have a chance of success. And how could I believe in it in the position of being scum myself?In post 140, Crandaja wrote:Grim I still get a bad feeling from. His deduction seems to be erratic and a lot different from last game. I don't really get what he's trying to do.
I STILL find your RVS-vote very odd, and though my initial reason may have been wrong (scumslip referring to a QT-post), the secondary reason why it's odd (reference to a historical post ) is almost as compelling. It literally seemed to have come falling out of the sky, and also the way you explained it makes it sound like it did, but I have difficulties believing it.
Your OMGUS-tunnelling isn't making me feel very good about you. Still have to read through the topic more in depth before possibly changing my vote.-
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How do you consider your playstyle here different from the one in the Title Pending game. If it's conscious, you should be able to explain the differences you have applied when this topic opened.In post 118, Candillan wrote:I adressed this in my previous post. My meta is anti-meta, as I am consciously playing differently every game. Relying on meta won't be helpful, and I won't take it seriously. I used myself as an example, but I believe that meta arguments in general are total garbage.
What variables do you see when it comes to meta? I mean, maybe you could change some obvious things, like amount of posts and their length, votehopping or not, but wouldn't you agree that when it comes to reacting to what other people say in quite constant?
And even if it is useless in your case, why does that make it useless in any other case? I see in your latest conversation you're discussing my meta from Title Pending quite in depth. Why bother if it doesn't mean anything?
By the way, what my meta is concerned, I think I already said this before: I'll be playing the same way as before. As long as I have the time to do so, I will always play like this, scum or town. But these are just the big lines. I'm not sure if unconciously, there could be some differences in the way I post or put up argumentations. But that's mainly your job to find out about.
Why did you ask about my re-RVS? How does it fit in with the scumhunt?
Nope, I can't think of any.
Could you give me an example of when re-RVSing would not be fine?In post 24, Candillan wrote:Alright, that's fine then.
This has got nothing to do with friendliness. Why bring up such an emotional argument? I don't think shaboostein would start crying himself to sleep at night just because you'd vote him. I find the interchange between the two of you very odd. An associative tell is what I see.I also adressed this in my last post. It isn't bussing, it's giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not gonna go super-offensive on him when he says that he's gonna post. I'm giving him air to breathe. It's a friendly game, either way. Why am I not allowed to be friendly with other players?
So anyone who's been on your case automatically no longer leans town. That's a whole lot of OMGUS right there, and yes, I think you should be sued for it. LnGrrrR put forward some reasonable arguments against you, yet instead of seeing the merit in them you simply call his attack on you scummy. I agree with him, and you call me scummy. How is me attacking you convenient for me?Yeah, it's OMGUS. Sue me.My posting was for pressure, as everything else I've been doing has been. Reaction testing is a powerful thing, Grim. It helps you assemble reads.
I am seriously trying to gather reads, but I've been terrible at it this time around. I do seriously see Homer and Syryana as townie, though. I was leaning town on you, but your jumping on this case is making me doubt that somewhat. It seems a wee bit too convenient.
And what does the thing in bold have to do with anything? Was you calling LnGrrrR scummy simply a reaction test? Is that what you're saying? How do you think he reacted then?
You calling me out? You're in my top 3 scumreads now, so first reason why I didn't vote you is because there are alternatives. It's not as if I'm not voting. What scummy reasons would you see for me not voting for you, that would make this question more than simply showing your defiance? And would me adding a vote to my arguments have changed your reaction to them?Also, if you really saw this as being so scummy, why aren't you voting me?
As far as jokes go, it wasn't even really funny as in "hahaha"-funny. I don't think you would think it "haha"-funny either. The only thing that makes it a joke is that it is not sincere. But that's not enough for a joke. It is enough for a scummy statement.
Okay.
Urgh. I like a good laugh, but people blaming having said weird things on "joking" are always scummy in my book.In post 93, Candillan wrote: 'twas a joke.
Why would you want to do that as town? In that case scum would already know who you are, so you'd only be fooling town.
Yes, it is useful for me to use, not for you all. By you all using my meta to ascertain my alignment in this game, I am able to use that examination to make you all think certain things of me when I really am pulling the wool over your eyes.
"I wasn't known to do that often" = meta-argument. And to be perfectly honest, I never associated you with someone who doesn't like voting or changing votes all the time. Anyway, I don't like the argument in the quote above, hard to put my finger on it but the logical conclusion that Crandaja took your vote seriously (did he?) because of your meta (did he?) doesn't really add up. And even if it does, it goes to show that meta IS useful and you are willing to use it in your gaming strategy.Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)
I'm buddying Raven. Not scumbuddies, but shameless sheeping and things of the like. LnGrrrR asked me why /I/ wasn't putting pressure on Raven, and I'm assuming he wanted me to put pressure on her. (Meanwhile, may I note how he didn't pressure her at all after I said that I wouldn't? It seems like he doesn't beli-
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I am calm.In post 160, Crandaja wrote:
Would you calm down? Homer asked me what I thought about you and I told him. Just because you have some ridiculous reasoning doesn't mean i feel any better about you.In post 151, Grimgroove wrote:
I don't like how you're being so insistant on this. This constant repetition is not going to change what I already have said about it. I have already explained what I was trying to do: find scum. I thought I saw a scumslip and acted on it. I was wrong, but as I asked Ravenpaw before (which she left unanswered): What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding? An easy lynch? How would that even work? If Syryana hadn't found it, you yourself would still have been in the position to point out my mistake, as you already knew what you were referring to. As scum I would know for a fact that this wouldn't be a scumslip and that it would be an easily deflected attack. Then why would I do it? The fact that I actually believed in my argument is the only reason why I brought it up and thought it could have a chance of success. And how could I believe in it in the position of being scum myself?In post 140, Crandaja wrote:Grim I still get a bad feeling from. His deduction seems to be erratic and a lot different from last game. I don't really get what he's trying to do.
I STILL find your RVS-vote very odd, and though my initial reason may have been wrong (scumslip referring to a QT-post), the secondary reason why it's odd (reference to a historical post ) is almost as compelling. It literally seemed to have come falling out of the sky, and also the way you explained it makes it sound like it did, but I have difficulties believing it.
Your OMGUS-tunnelling isn't making me feel very good about you. Still have to read through the topic more in depth before possibly changing my vote.
What makes the reasoning ridiculous?-
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In post 170, homertve wrote:
Who are your three scumreads now?In post 152, Grimgroove wrote:You calling me out? You're in my top 3 scumreads now, so first reason why I didn't vote you is because there are alternatives. It's not as if I'm not voting.
Candillan, Crandaja, Ravenpaw are in my top 3 scumreads. I'm planning to give a full reads list (probably tomorrow) of every player here to clarify this. Need to IC some more people.-
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Since shaboostein is being replaced, and this really rubbed me the wrong way:In post 171, Crandaja wrote: This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.
VOTE: Crandaja
Will respond to your more post more in depth later today, even though we're mostly going in circles.-
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I never claimed it to be a strong argument. Even though I still stand behind my view that there is a difference between yes and yup, there is no way in hell this difference would constitute a scumtell or anything resembling it.
I find it very telling that Crandaja has to refer to the weakness of the argument while knowing very well what it was meant to do. The topic has been discussed widely before, just like everything else he posted in an effort to attack me. Instead of responding to arguments in an A-B-C-D manner, every discussion with him becomes A-B-A-B... He's definitely being anti-town by his tunnel, both in content and in target. And he can say it's not OMGUS all he wants, but pretty much his entire case revolves around me trying to pinch him with a scumslip.-
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PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.In post 177, LnGrrrR wrote:Grim, I think the yes vs yep argument was pretty weak too, but it was coming soon after RVS and it was an attempt to generate discussion/content, which is why I don't see it as that scummy. If you had pulled that argument now that we have decent data to go through I would've found it much worse.-
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My to-do list:
- Reply to Crandaja's latest
- Try to pinpoint what it is about LnGrrrR that I suddenly don't like.
- Make a reads list on everyone (IC-time)
So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.
Anyway, first thing's first:
Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.In post 171, Crandaja wrote:
Well you could definitely put some pressure on me. The argument that you could not have made the post if you were scum really doesn't make much sense. That early in the game it really doesn't do you much harm to be wrong (clearly) since I'm the only one that seemed bothered by your error. You wouldn't need to believe it to post it. Lying is part of this game.I don't like how you're being so insistant on this. This constant repetition is not going to change what I already have said about it. I have already explained what I was trying to do: find scum. I thought I saw a scumslip and acted on it. I was wrong, but as I asked Ravenpaw before (which she left unanswered): What reasonable tactic do you see behind it that is scummy? And by reasonable I mean: a tactic that has even the slightest chance of succeeding? An easy lynch? How would that even work? If Syryana hadn't found it, you yourself would still have been in the position to point out my mistake, as you already knew what you were referring to. As scum I would know for a fact that this wouldn't be a scumslip and that it would be an easily deflected attack. Then why would I do it? The fact that I actually believed in my argument is the only reason why I brought it up and thought it could have a chance of success. And how could I believe in it in the position of being scum myself?
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.
It shows a lot of pre-consideration, even though you try to make it sound as if it was the first thing that popped inside your head. And in an RVS-stage, I'd say pre-consideration is fishy. If anything, I want people in RVS to act natural and carefree. Referring to posts of two weeks before shows me you've been thinking long and hard on what to post in RVS, and I don't like it.
How exactly is a reference to a historical post compelling in any way? Even Candillian remembered the interaction as being one of our only ones so I don't know why this makes me scum. It seems extremely desperate to me.In post 151, Grimgroove wrote: I STILL find your RVS-vote very odd, and though my initial reason may have been wrong (scumslip referring to a QT-post), the secondary reason why it's odd (reference to a historical post ) is almost as compelling. It literally seemed to have come falling out of the sky, and also the way you explained it makes it sound like it did, but I have difficulties believing it.
Your OMGUS-tunnelling isn't making me feel very good about you. Still have to read through the topic more in depth before possibly changing my vote.
I don't see how Candillan's remembering stuff adds anything to this discussion? Do you think he would have remembered it if you hadn't brought it up? I doubt it.
Reacted to the last portion before, which I find ridiculous to evenb ring up again.As I said before its not OMGUS. I don't care about you voting me but you made a pretty significant accusation and contradicted yourself instantly. This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.
About me contradicting myself: Where? Please check my dialogue with Ravenpaw in case you're talking about the "anywhere". This is not a contradiction. It could be interpreted as one if you want to, but it is not. "Anywhere" is too vague a term to link any exact concepts like "contradiction" to it.-
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Don't see Candillan's scumslip either.In post 198, Syryana wrote:
I assume you mean ISO, not IC? I will be interested to see your cases.In post 173, Grimgroove wrote:Candillan, Crandaja, Ravenpaw are in my top 3 scumreads. I'm planning to give a full reads list (probably tomorrow) of every player here to clarify this. Need to IC some more people.
Yes, tomorrow or the day after.
Shaboostein is not being replaced yet, I don't think? What rubbed you the wrong way about Crand's post?In post 174, Grimgroove wrote:
Since shaboostein is being replaced, and this really rubbed me the wrong way:In post 171, Crandaja wrote: This and the ridiculous yes vs. yep paint you as a scum.
edosurist asked for a replacement in the Newbie-queu. What rubbed me the wrong way: see post 178
Do elaborate. I liked that post.In post 179, Grimgroove wrote:PS: This post gave me massive scumvibes. Hard to put my finger on why it does, but I'll try to elaborate later.
It felt like trying to get a piece of both sides of the argument, trying to soothe both me and Crandaja. The fact that if I would use the "yes yep" thing later in the game is entirely irrelevant (I didn't and will not), yet he's adding it. If find this addition very odd, and the motives I see: 1. He's trying to make up for his "buddying" towards me (calling me town while nobody else does, there's even disagreement on how similar I act compared to the previous game from what I gather, yet he's claiming that I do behave the same. Even I disagree with that, given the negative attention I have not been entirely able to get into the game as much as I'd like to) by awkwardly showing others I'm not outside of his scope of criticism. 2. As I personally feel this entire yep-yes thing has been dragging on long enough, I also see it as an easy way to come off as a sensible guy who sees both sides of the story. Too easy and with no added value. Why do you like it so much?
What conclusions do you make about the lack of activity from myself and Raven?In post 180, Grimgroove wrote:So much to do! I guess I should be glad activity is so low here. What is it with you guys? It's even worse than before, on top of RachMarie and shaboo being their usual inactive selves, Ravenpaw seems to have decided to join them and also Syryana seems less involved than last time.
Makes you less trustworthy than I would like. I for one don't see why Candillan puts you in his main townreads. In the previous game (even though I had more info) it seemed much more evident to put you on the townpile. Same goes for Ravenpaw.
There is a scumslip in here. Town points to whomever finds it!In post 180, Grimgroove wrote:Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.
I don't see it, but I'm sure there's an explanation
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Did you actually find it or are you pretending you did?
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Of course, Caesar. Next time I'll try not to dissappoint you in the arena.In post 207, Syryana wrote:No. I'm also rather disappointed you didn't attack Cand's last post.
PS: you just asked the same question to Candillan (why he thinks you and Homer are town), yet you dismissed my post where I did it with a simple "no".
This makes me a hurt gladiator-
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Syryana, you forgot to reply in your eagerness to dismiss my percieved scumslip from Candillan. Also, when it comes to scumslip, the one you pinted out from Candillan is dissappointingly weak. When I think of "scumslip" I think of something scum would say that would incriminate close to 100%. Like a reference to a QT for example. Not something that can be interpreted in any way, or which simply consitutes a choice of formulation. Scumslips are about meaning, not formulation.
Not happy with Crandaja replacing out like that, but warm welcome to the two newcomers! Let's get this game more active.-
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At Rach, also respond to post 63 please. Seemed like an untargeted shot in the dark and a post you thought about before the game really started. In a case where the context would be right, this would make you look town, but now it doesn't really add up to anything that was going on in the topic. There was a meager string of RVS votes and that's it.
@LnGrrrR: How do you feel about me thinking you're buddying? What cases have I made so far that were as sensible as the "Title Pending" game that make me lean town for you?-
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Scumslip?In post 222, Syryana wrote:In post 216, Grimgroove wrote:Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.
How would you know? You only knew me as scum in the previous game, and now you're supposedly assuming I'm scum as well.-
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Urg, doesn't add up. Do you think I actually think it's weak, or do you think I try to convince you it's weak while actually believing it's strong.In post 222, Syryana wrote:
Of course you think it's weak. He's your scumbuddy.In post 216, Grimgroove wrote:Syryana, you forgot to reply in your eagerness to dismiss my percieved scumslip from Candillan. Also, when it comes to scumslip, the one you pinted out from Candillan is dissappointingly weak. When I think of "scumslip" I think of something scum would say that would incriminate close to 100%. Like a reference to a QT for example. Not something that can be interpreted in any way, or which simply consitutes a choice of formulation. Scumslips are about meaning, not formulation.
If it's the first, this has got nothing to do with my alignment.
If it's the second: you just called me reasonable and logical. Why would a logical person dismiss an argument he knows is strong?-
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You claiming that my response to Candillan's scumslip is easily explained by him being my buddy is WIFOM.In post 229, Syryana wrote:Of the points in that leprechaun-flavored quote; I have responded already to points 3 and 5, point 1 I am still waiting on, point 4 is your answer to my question, point 2 is also no longer of relevance since I'm not interested in Crand anymore.
So I'm not entirely sure what you're wanting a full response to.
The scumslips are not WIFOM. Your response to Candillan's was.Grimgroove wrote:It was already WIFOM to start with, don't pretend otherwise.
Why aren't you interested in Crand anymore? Simply because he's replaced? the slot got an entire refresh? You realize the slot has still the same role behind it, do you?
Post 178 is as much about me as it is about Crand. What do you think about it? What was it that made you interested in the answer to your question (2) and why isn't it anymore?
How do you read Ravenpaw?-
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Into the arena I go, my emperor.
PS: What's the point of not sharing my scumslip? Why does it give townie points to whoever finds it? Why wouldn't scum be able to find it?In post 199, Candillan wrote:Oh, I know what you're talking about. The "I was town that game".
I was letting him know that I was town in 1335, to give him perspective. Would it have been different if I had said "I was town that game, too."?
I still find this laughable when it comes to scumslips. I hope for your sake you have a better one on me, considering how you've been raising expectations.
Funny call on Grim, I missed it.
Like I said earlier: I think he's pretending he found it. Late ron he claims to have "misread the quote" and dropped the whole thing. Very silly. Would still like to see how he misread it, and what it was he saw.
I am town, Syryana. What are the odds of me/Grim being scum together twice in a row?
1. I personally don't find our interactions suspicious.Bad argument, but it doesn't change the fact that it's up to you (Syryana) to show where they're bad in order for you to back up your opinion on me and Candillan being scumbuddies.
2. Those odds are extremely low.Very bad argument indeed.
3. I'm still town.Meh, not a tell either way.
Why have I been having trouble producing reads this game? It's because I'm trying to look at interactions, and I'm seeing too many potential scumteams to be healthy.
IWondering why he's not trying a different approach if his current one isn't working. But I also see some possible pairs so I do get what he's trying to say. (Crandaja-Ravenpaw; Syryana-LnGrrrR, for example)
Why did you vote me on the "slip", but not Grim?fair question
Why do you like LnGrrrR? All I see in that post where you said you liked him is him subtly buddying you.fair question
If you see self-meta as dumb, why didn't you pressure Grim on that?fair question. Surprised you didn't refer to the fact we had a discussion about self-meta in the previous game, where I already made my point on self-meta clear. Why would you use it against me now, when you didn't then?
UNVOTE:
Forgot I was still voting Shaboo. I think he's being replaced, as he hasn't posted yet. He also has posted in other games, though~
If I was to make a reads list at the moment, it would look like this:
TOWN
Syryana/Homer
Raven
LnGrrrR/Crand/Grim
SCUM
Shaboo and Rach haven't posted nearly enough for me to get a read on them.
I have proclaimed Candillan to be among my main scumreads before, and I'm sure if you ISO me you'll find reasons why I did (in attendance of my full reads list). Why then proceed later on to claim I'm dismissing arguments against Candillan simply because they're directed against him (cfr. his scumslip).
A thing that strikes me as very odd, and this is directed to both Ravenpaw and Candillan: what happened to your buddying? I've seen close to none of it this game.-
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Why did you put scumslip in between " "s here?In post 229, Syryana wrote: Since we're speaking of Candillan, what do you think of his response to his "scumslip"? (#199)-
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In post 233, Syryana wrote:
Ah, I thought you were saying the scumslip itself was WIFOM. Fair enough.In post 230, Grimgroove wrote:You claiming that my response to Candillan's scumslip is easily explained by him being my buddy is WIFOM.
Why aren't you interested in Crand anymore? Simply because he's replaced? the slot got an entire refresh? You realize the slot has still the same role behind it, do you?
Post 178 is as much about me as it is about Crand. What do you think about it? What was it that made you interested in the answer to your question (2) and why isn't it anymore?
How do you read Ravenpaw?
As a general rule, I like to get input from replacements. I don't erase what their predecessor did but I do like to judge the replacement on their own merits.
How does this compute with "I'm not interested in Crand anymore"? (post 229
Wrt 178: He was being anti-town about it, yes. I don't see it as scummy, though. You go after him, he OMGUS' you, then tunnels you thereafter. Seen it happen with newbies before. Hell, I've done it myself.
Why did you think he was scummy, if not that?
I was interested in fleshing out your thought process. I thought Crand was scummy myself and wanted to know how your reasons matched up with mine. Since I've now found the scumteam, I no longer care.
Your conviction is either has proven to be a powerful tool in the past and you're using it with bad intentions, or I'm afraid we're dealing with a "Caesar".
What is it with people buddying me this game? First Candyland with all his "Syr is so town" stuff and now you with the "Caesar/Emperor" comments.In post 231, Grimgroove wrote:Into the arena I go, my emperor.
Do you seriously consider this at buddying? My goodness . I thought the reference is clear. Twice when I've used this symbolism it was referring to your attitude of pitching me against Candillan, just like Caesar would do to his gladiators. You sit there on your tribune and let us sort it out. I'm playing along but don't think I don't notice what you're doing. I don't like these puppetmaster-questions, as the "assignments" you give already show your clear bias.
I'll ask more directly: does it make him scummier or townier?In post 231, Grimgroove wrote:In post 199, Candillan wrote:Oh, I know what you're talking about. The "I was town that game".
I was letting him know that I was town in 1335, to give him perspective. Would it have been different if I had said "I was town that game, too."?
I still find this laughable when it comes to scumslips. I hope for your sake you have a better one on me, considering how you've been raising expectations.
Funny call on Grim, I missed it.
Like I said earlier: I think he's pretending he found it. Late ron he claims to have "misread the quote" and dropped the whole thing. Very silly. Would still like to see how he misread it, and what it was he saw.
I am town, Syryana. What are the odds of me/Grim being scum together twice in a row?
1. I personally don't find our interactions suspicious.Bad argument, but it doesn't change the fact that it's up to you (Syryana) to show where they're bad in order for you to back up your opinion on me and Candillan being scumbuddies.
2. Those odds are extremely low.Very bad argument indeed.
3. I'm still town.Meh, not a tell either way.
Why have I been having trouble producing reads this game? It's because I'm trying to look at interactions, and I'm seeing too many potential scumteams to be healthy.
IWondering why he's not trying a different approach if his current one isn't working. But I also see some possible pairs so I do get what he's trying to say. (Crandaja-Ravenpaw; Syryana-LnGrrrR, for example)
Why did you vote me on the "slip", but not Grim?fair question
Why do you like LnGrrrR? All I see in that post where you said you liked him is him subtly buddying you.fair question
If you see self-meta as dumb, why didn't you pressure Grim on that?fair question. Surprised you didn't refer to the fact we had a discussion about self-meta in the previous game, where I already made my point on self-meta clear. Why would you use it against me now, when you didn't then?
UNVOTE:
Forgot I was still voting Shaboo. I think he's being replaced, as he hasn't posted yet. He also has posted in other games, though~
If I was to make a reads list at the moment, it would look like this:
TOWN
Syryana/Homer
Raven
LnGrrrR/Crand/Grim
SCUM
Shaboo and Rach haven't posted nearly enough for me to get a read on them.
Scummier, mainly because of his 3 numbered points. Now you answer the questions contained therein please. I get the feeling you've been buying an awful lot of time for yourself lately.
I'm not sharing your scumslip because I want to see if anyone else finds it. Besides, watching you squirm makes me giggle.In post 231, Grimgroove wrote:PS: What's the point of not sharing my scumslip? Why does it give townie points to whoever finds it? Why wouldn't scum be able to find it?
I have proclaimed Candillan to be among my main scumreads before, and I'm sure if you ISO me you'll find reasons why I did (in attendance of my full reads list). Why then proceed later on to claim I'm dismissing arguments against Candillan simply because they're directed against him (cfr. his scumslip).
A thing that strikes me as very odd, and this is directed to both Ravenpaw and Candillan: what happened to your buddying? I've seen close to none of it this game.
Squirming? Misrep.
About your scumreads: Candillan's in there for show. Look at your voting patterns. You voted him once early early on in the game (in RVS actually) and you haven't touched him since. If Candyland gets lynched, or close, you can bus him with almost no repercussion. However, judging from your knee-jerk reaction to my scumslip proclamation (e.g. can't find the slip, calling it lame, not attacking Candillan's horrendous rebuttal until I mention it),you weren't serious about your scumread on him. Though you've made any number of references to things Candillan's done you don't like, you've never made any effort to push a wagon on him.Very curious at this point what others think of this scumslip you found. I'm actually very curious what they think about the scumslip I found with you. You kind of squirmed your way out of that one, didn't you? And yes, of course my scumslip. Keeping me away at night, that is
Other priorities. You can only have one vote on one person at a time. Are you saying that when you have your vote against someone, you don't have any arguments against anyone else? That you don't bother to make comments about them? Even if I didn't vote, I'd like to think my comments on Candillan helped other people to think about him in a scummy light. What do you think of the references I did make? Did they sound insincere by themselves, or just because there was no vote accompanying them.
Because you don't think it's legit.In post 232, Grimgroove wrote:
Why did you put scumslip in between " "s here?In post 229, Syryana wrote: Since we're speaking of Candillan, what do you think of his response to his "scumslip"? (#199)That's mighty considerate of you, "buddy".-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Fascinating.In post 234, Syryana wrote:
I forgot to answer this. Answer: I dunno, she's being a lurky-pants.In post 230, Grimgroove wrote:How do you read Ravenpaw?-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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In post 238, homertve wrote:Why is it a bad argument? He's right. The chances to that
areslim.
The chance to that is just as slim as any other scumpair. Yet there is a scumpair out there, that's a fact. And that existing pair has just the same odds of happening as me and Candillan being scum together again. I'm obviously not saying we are, but using statistics like that is not valid in any way.
What's so fascinating? I feel the same way about her.In post 236, Grimgroove wrote:
Fascinating.In post 234, Syryana wrote:
I forgot to answer this. Answer: I dunno, she's being a lurky-pants.In post 230, Grimgroove wrote:How do you read Ravenpaw?
I feel there's more to be said about her besides the lurking. Her reaction to the Crand story. Her non-buddying to Candillan. The reason why I chose this choice of words is that it's also telling how Syryana intends to tunnel on both me and Candillan right now. I don't find that pro-town, and thus, fascinating.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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I'd even start suggesting a replacement, though it's not easy to replace an IC. But including the Title Pending game she's been largely inactive and detached for a couple of weeks now, and I don't see any reason why that would improve suddenly. No offense intended towards Rach but I think it's getting hard to ignore this trend.In post 239, homertve wrote:
I don't know. I think Rach needs a pord.In post 237, Grimgroove wrote:Where did the other people go?-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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A. Where did I give you the impression I didn't know that?In post 243, homertve wrote:
A. HeIn post 241, Grimgroove wrote:The chance to that is just as slim as any other scumpair. Yet there is a scumpair out there, that's a fact. And that existing pair has just the same odds of happening as me and Candillan being scum together again.istalking about you and him being scumpair again.
B. He's talking about it in a "twice in row" context.Thosechances are, indeed, slim.
B. No. Really, no. They're exactly the same as any other pair being drawn in this game.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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I have stated before Ravenpaw is in my top 3 scumreads before, so that should give you a hint.In post 244, homertve wrote:
What doIn post 241, Grimgroove wrote:I feel there's more to be said about her besides the lurking. Her reaction to the Crand story. Her non-buddying to Candillan. The reason why I chose this choice of words is that it's also telling how Syryana intends to tunnel on both me and Candillan right now. I don't find that pro-town, and thus, fascinating.youthink about all that?
I really should make a reads list and ISO the lot of you, but I'm having too much fun retorting to Syryana's little games, which does take some time.
I'll get started on it tonight, but might only produce a result tomorrow.-
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Grimgroove Mafia Scum
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Damn yes, hadn't noticed. Thanks for pointing that out.
Going to fix that tag problem before it confuses other people.
(he replied to it in post 224, think of it what you may and please share those thoughts)In post 223, Grimgroove wrote:
Scumslip?In post 222, Syryana wrote:Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.
How would you know? You only knew me as scum in the previous game, and now you're supposedly assuming I'm scum as well.
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