Newbie 1713 (Game Over)

[arak-and-skhug]

shalom yall

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

Anyway.

One time when I was in middle school a girl named Ashley stole my gummi worms and I never really got over it.
So
VOTE: ashley

[arak-and-skhug]

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

You seem nervous about this wagon. Do you really think scum would expose themselves like that?

I'm getting a slight scum-vibe from this post.

Vote: Arak

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

Town won that so you'd like scum to win this one?

Okay Huntress go ahead and take us out of RVS before everyone's even gotten here.
UNVOTE: ashley

1) In regards to the Alex wagon being a mistake: I've looked around in other newbie games and crazier things have happened. No, it's not likely that Alex would get lynched, but what good comes out of wagoning like that? Did we really gain any information from having a wagon on Alex? A RVS wagon doesn't do much of anything, people feel no pressure when there's no reasoning behind the votes. If Alex WAS scum he can just shrug and say oh well they're voting me because of my name, and then he doesn't have to defend himself and we're denied any information that would come of it.

2) Town won my last game so I want scum to win this one? What? Either you didn't think this one through all the way or you're making a low-energy effort to paint a throwaway statement as a tell. I said I lost last one so I want to win this one. Pretty sure motivation to win is an alignment neutral trait, but if you're going to try to erroneously generalize at least do it accurately. Scum LOST my last game so I want town to win this one. Because I was scum last game and town this game. And both games I want/wanted to win. Do I need to simplify more?

[arak-and-skhug]

I didn't realize you weren't being serious and I didn't realize I overreacted.

And yes while it's true that we're gaining information, we're only gaining it on 3-4 players. Half the town didn't participate in RVS. And I don't know how critical or not that is but it seems to me like a bad idea because scum can hide in all those holes. Of course the game needs to progress and we have to do something but we just need to be mindful of who hasn't had a chance to post yet and how it's easy to hone in for good or for bad on more active players.

Also Charloux, what does it mean to be overly honest? Does town have any reason to be anything less then honest?

[arak-and-skhug]

I think you are the kind of person who doesn't know how to lie; Meaning that you can't make reaction tests and have a harder time seeing through deceit others plant.

I think those skills come more with experience rather then some innate ability to lie naturally, and more based on having good perception rather than being a good liar. And regardless, ability isn't an alignment tell either, talented (and untalented) players can wind up being scum or town.

Can you tell me a potential scenario where it be a good move for a town player to tell a blatant lie?

[arak-and-skhug]

Okay a few quick thoughts cause i just worked all night and need to sleep.

1) L-2s make me uncomfortable. L-1s even more so. Is that a playstyle thing? yes. Is that problematic? apparently. should it be? I don't think so.

2) I think Huntress and I both initally interpreted eachother with more serious tone then was intended, which really doesn't mean anything in terms of alignment. What will be be interesting later on will be to keep track of everyone else who followed suit with less than stellar reasoning. If the only major interaction so far is between me and Huntress there's plenty of opportunity for scum to ride that and avoid forming their own interactions that would shine lights on them.

3. Did I really flail that badly? I didn't think I did. If anything I was caught off guard because I wasn't expecting a serious vote so soon, let alone on me. I think I responded to a thought out vote with a reasonable defense. Just a surprised defense.

4. I unvoted Ashley because RVS is over and it's stupid at this point to have my vote on someone because someone else stole my gummi worms in middle school.
Foxbird and Alex, can you share any reasons why I should I have kept my vote on Ashley?

5. Foxbird, your vote is on me to see my defense. What specifically do you want me to defend against? Your vote? Or just in general? If I jump around in a town t-shirt, would that qualify?

6. Cakez, why is fear of mislynch (even overly strong fear) a scumtell?

Okay now everyone please read those points in a clear, calm voice because that's how I wrote them. (insert calm and smiling emoji here)

[arak-and-skhug]

I looked back at Foxbird's Iso

Her first two posts are a random vote on Alex and a rundown of mafia experience, nothing important


then check this out

I agree with Huntress and Alex in that 18 was very over-the-top defensive as a reaction to an offhanded joke. I, too, would like to know why that moved Arak to remove his (single, non-wagoned) vote off of ashley, who hasn't even said anything.

Not sure what to make of the Charloux/Alex interactions, but kinda regarding that as banter for now.

VOTE: Arak to see what his defense is.

Here she's the third person to criticize my defensiveness and the second to criticize my ashley unvote. Anything meaningful in her post is parroted from other players. Her only original thought is some loose association between Charloux and Alex with plenty of room to backtrack and write it off as meaningless if she needs to down the future.

And after she calls out me being "over-the-top defensive", her reasoning for her vote is to see my defense? Still don't understand that. I'm too defensive but you want me to defend myself more.

Ok hi guys im the new ashley, it seems
So, rqs: did you guys play a lot of games as scum already?
Oh and ofc a nice vote Uhhh
Aint no foxbirds exist
VOTE: foxbird

What i think is that arak is def on my nullscum list for that reaction, but not more than that. Flailing isnt necessarily a scum thing; dont forget this is a newbie game, we (yes im a newb too) tend to stress a lot when they are suspected, regardless of alignment.
Im keeping my rvs vote tho, ill let huntress continue their discussion, id love to see what foxbird has to say

Not sure what you want me to say! If this is an RVS vote, there's not really anything to defend against
I do agree that Arak

might

be town flailing, but I'm interested in his defense anyway.
Also I usually end up Town in Mafia games I play, not much serious scum experience.

Also, yes, Foxbirds don't exist - but they should!

Once again we have Foxbird agreeing with someone elses point, and that italicized might is again giving her plenty of room to back track. If Foxbird is scum then she know's I'm town. And she knows she might have a harder time riding my wagon then she might have originally thought. because it needs to be noted that my three vote wagon wasn't a RVS wagon like the one on Alex, it was a serious wagon with intentions to find scum, and everyone on that wagon should have had solid reasoning for being on it.

which I mentioned in my post 45

and the minute I subtly pointed a finger at the people who followed Huntress onto the wagon (Foxbird & Cakez), Foxbird switched her vote to Wirt.

5. Foxbird, your vote is on me to see my defense. What specifically do you want me to defend against? Your vote? Or just in general? If I jump around in a town t-shirt, would that qualify?

What you posted is what I wanted to see - just the whole 'how does he react under pressure?' thing. I like your reaction, though I find the 'Town T-Shirt' comment a bit strange.
And yes, many of the 'issues' probably boil down to playstyle etc, so I'm moving my vote to someone who I want to see do something for now.

Hmm...
UNVOTE: Arak
VOTE: Wirt

Let's see what he says after catching up!

Foxbird voted for me after Huntress with an empty reason, and all I had to do was make one post before she backed off with equally empty reasoning. And then in the ultimate lazy scum move she votes for someone who hasn't had a chance to participate yet because it requires the least amount of work. Instead of Alex, Huntress, or Inspector, all who would require some degree of fabrication (which would require sticking her neck out a bit which could potentially expose her), or just unvoting (which wouldn't fit with all this faux scum-hunting, trying to look town she's been doing) she votes for Wirt which is all the under-the-radarness of not voting at all with the perks of still pretending to look for scum.

Those are my thoughts for now.
VOTE: Foxbird

PS: Icing on the cake is her once again "oh yeah I saw that scummy thing that Cakez did too cause I'm also town! Don't worry I'm keeping my eye on it! If a Cakez wagon forms you can count on me to join it. I sure won't be the one to start it but look, I've been keeping my eye on him since the beginning" in her last post.

[arak-and-skhug]

If on the off chance that Inspector & Foxbird are the scumteam, that was a MAJESTIC bailout by the Inspector himself.

Cakez, you never answered my question in 45

I'll rephrase it. Basically your original reason for voting me was my (admittedly-potentially-irrational-but-that's-irrelevant-to-this-question) fear of a mislynch on Alex. Why is that a scumtell worthy of a vote?

[arak-and-skhug]

Let me try to make myself even clearer.

You obviously disagree with how Foxbird voted me, someone who had only posted to confirm their slot, over someone she actively scumreads. Meanwhile, Arak has made a case on Foxbird, which includes criticizing of the same vote choice. However at no point do you acknowledge this -- be it by agreement, total disagreement, or partial agreement -- and then you question inspector about why they consider the comment about flailing to be worth of a townread, which is basically contesting the townread on Arak.

Basically, it is not clear what your view on those players are, neither what you're trying to figure out at the current moment.

If it wasn't clear, I also have a scumread on Fox originating from the vote on you before you made a content post. I also have a scumread on Arak obviously. Both of my sets of questions revolve around these scumreads. I'm not sure what's not clear.
And then, what are the all questions in 66 going to accomplish?

Cakez, if you think Foxbird and I are both scum, why haven't you said one word about our interactions? If we're both scum then I'm blatantly and obviously bussing her and it's weird that you wouldn't mention that at all. Either you're witholding information or this is fabricated and you didn't think about it hard enough.

[arak-and-skhug]

Wirt, I agree with what you posted. Also the flailing discussion has been going on for too long without saying anything really of value and I'm frankly getting tired of reading that word. It's slowly losing it's meaning and becoming just sounds in my head......flailing......flailing......flailing.....Anyway I don't like how Cakez never mentioned, referenced, or acknowledged my post 52 on Foxbird.

Also Cakez I don't understand why your vote is on me rather then Foxbird. Correct me if I wrong but I get the impression that you think I'm more likely to be town than she is. Your vote on me is in response to my first two posts, even though the meat of my contributions happen later, and you never mention anything I post again until my post 71, which you respond to positively. So I'll ask you forwardly, why are you voting for me instead of Foxbird? Even if you find us with perfectly even chances to be scum, wouldn't it make more sense to be on a wagon with two other players then all by yourself? One lone vote doesn't accomplish much.

[arak-and-skhug]

Foxbird, Wirt has some good advice for you, and I'll add to it by pointing out that in your reads list, you use the fact that someone is kind and helpful as a sign of towniness, and I'd caution you against that. This game has lots of potential for wolves to dress up in sheep's clothing. Scum can be charming and welcoming. Town players can often be exasperating and abrasive because they don't have anything to hide. Keep in mind that if you are town, the only other players who know that for sure at this point are the two scum. And when they see a new player getting targeted, they have two choices. They can pile on and pound with all they got to try to push you to be mislynched, but once you flip everyone will see that you were town, and your wagon would be the first place they'd start looking for scum. It's a very obvious move and maybe not the best choice. The second choice they have is to support you and defend you and that gets you individually thinking they're town for being helpful, and if you do still get mislynched, they can reap town points for being on your side. So don't give people being helpful to you a free pass.

Or of course they could just be your partner trying to keep you out of trouble!

[arak-and-skhug]

The questions do carry weight though, I'm awaiting a response from foxbird and am discussing with inspector.
I do not have any strong stances currently yes, but it is the third page. I'm still waiting to engage with most of the playerlist.

Discussing with me? well, I pretty much said what I wanted to say about that flail thing. I was slightly wrong though. I said it was a town move, but actually, considering he is a new player, he probably doesn't like to leave arguements unfinished because loose end could be dangerous. It's not really a town move; but I don't see the scumminess(is that even a word lol) in it either.

If on the off chance that Inspector & Foxbird are the scumteam, that was a MAJESTIC bailout by the Inspector himself.

Wait is this like a compliment or... i dont get this lol

Yeah i dont have stuff to contribute on so i wont, but if you have any questions about my reads on ppl or smth make me do it xd

All I'm saying is that your post 55 really threw Foxbird a bone. You explained to her why she was being scumread, and guided her in a new direction. And now by following your advice she looks to me (and I believe to others) a lot more towny. For me it's too early to try to pick out an intact scumteam but this could have easily been scum coaching a partner. And if it was, you did a very good job because I seem to be the only one who picked up on it.

[arak-and-skhug]

Inspector why aren't you voting for anyone?

[arak-and-skhug]

Wait, Foxbird, you say Inspector posted while you were writing? It took you an hour and half to write that post?

And I'm sorry but how is Inspector one of the most diligent scum hunters?
Inspector who says he's having trouble reading this game, who admits he doesn't have much to contribute, who adds the disclaimer after his vote "i know these are bad reasons but yah"
All he's done was start that back and forth about flailing. And what's his opinion at the end of it? That's it's not really a town move but he doesn't see the scumminess in it either.

So Foxbird that's who you think is one of the most diligent scum hunters in the game? You, Charloux, and even Cakez have all contributed more then him, in my opinion.
This is now the second funny interaction between the two of you.

[arak-and-skhug]

oh wait I can't read clocks, it was just a half hour between foxbird and inspector posting which is less crazy

[arak-and-skhug]

I already explained once why I thought the Wirt vote was scummy. Scum isn't always going full speed for the lynch. Often they are hiding and trying to blend it and wait for someone else to lead a lynch. I saw the Wirt vote as a failed attempt of hiding under the radar and "looking busy" without actually risking anything. Yes there were more votes on me at the time but I think it was clear pretty quickly that the momentum on my wagon was reversing quickly and that's a good reason for scum to bail.

[arak-and-skhug]

Wirt my first thought was fake townslip too, it just seemed to obvious, but I'm going pretty much purely on gut for that one.

The thing I really don't like is this apathetic self deprication thing going on...it's not consistent, and mostly seems to crop up when Inspector is being criticized. His helping Foxbird wasn't just a throwaway answer about game mechanics, he guided her to improve her entire image. and in 113 he forgets his "image" and calls out and corrects Cakez for not paying attention, Inspector is clearly focused enough on this game that he doesn't need to constantly claim otherwise

I still think Foxbird is scum but I'm going to go ahead and jump over here for now
VOTE: inspectorscout

If you actually are being genuine about half-assing this game maybe now you'll have motivation to play fully.

Also, I had forgotten about the late random vote-and-unvote failed discussion starter which I had found weird at the time. Of course it was on Foxbird!

[arak-and-skhug]

Also how has Adam not been replaced yet? It's ridiculous that we are on page 5 and a whole slot hasn't posted one word yet. Once that last slot is in play it could change everything.

[arak-and-skhug]

Nice posting about page 5 on page 6. Good job Arak.

It's hard not to agree with someone else's point if they are valid. Not much has happened in the game so far, and there has been little room for subtlety or reading between the lines, just by lack of content, so most people will be having the same train of thought. Yes, I am a cautious player, and after seeing someone else with more experience agree with my gut feelings, I found it prudent to point out that I feel the same as them. Reaching a consensus isn't necessarily "empty" or sheeping.

And yes, I wanted to see what your defense is when people wonder about something you did (the prior defensiveness). Every reaction in mafia leads to new questions, so seeing a reaction to a reaction to a reaction, so to say, can be useful. I don't see how me changing my vote after I heard what you have to say is suspicious? All you did was make me feel comfortable that the pressure had done what I wanted it to, so I moved the little pressure I can create onto someone else, someone who had promised to post soon after catching up. And why would I take my vote off a wagon, that, as you say "has solid reasoning behind it"? If I was scum, knew for sure you were town, wouldn't I want to keep the wagon as long as possible? I don't understand how any of that makes me suspicious. All I'm doing is trying to cause as much conversation as possible, because information helps the Town.

If I seem flippant, then I suppose I could seem that way. This is my first game, so there's not much certainty for me, and combined with the fact we're so early in the game and know next to nothing, it can lead to some spontaneous decisions. Shots in the dark, and such.

I want to call back to this post for a second as well. It reads like you don't have your facts straight about who you are. One second you call yourself a cautious player, the next you say your flippant and spontaneous. Also no, most people DON'T have the same train of though naturally, and while scum's ultimate goal is to lynch town, scum doesn't want to get caught being obviously on a town wagon. There's plenty of reasons for you as scum to have left my wagon. Also, saying "why would I have done that as scum?" is a flawed argument because I can just respond with "why wouldn't you have done that as scum?" For all I know, you could have "done that" with the single intention of later saying "why would I have done that?" Makes sense? It doesn't work for me. Anyway, later on after this you cite fluff and contradiction as scumtells, and here's fluff and contradiction in your very own posts.

[arak-and-skhug]

Wirt my first thought was fake townslip too, it just seemed to obvious, but I'm going pretty much purely on gut for that one.

The thing I really don't like is this apathetic self deprication thing going on...it's not consistent, and mostly seems to crop up when Inspector is being criticized. His helping Foxbird wasn't just a throwaway answer about game mechanics, he guided her to improve her entire image. and in 113 he forgets his "image" and calls out and corrects Cakez for not paying attention, Inspector is clearly focused enough on this game that he doesn't need to constantly claim otherwise

I still think Foxbird is scum but I'm going to go ahead and jump over here for now
VOTE: inspectorscout

If you actually are being genuine about half-assing this game maybe now you'll have motivation to play fully.

Also, I had forgotten about the late random vote-and-unvote failed discussion starter which I had found weird at the time. Of course it was on Foxbird!

Do you think Inspector is scummier than Foxbird?

It's not important who's scummier between two people when we still have two scum to find. Alex a lot of your posts consist of quoting posts that say a lot and then barely responding with anything heavy, either asking a softball question or making a vague statement. I don't like it. I'm gonna go back over you once I get home from work this evening.

[arak-and-skhug]

So Alex try to pretend you're town for a second. Is it better for me to be alone with my vote on Foxbird? Or with two others on Inspector? Does it really matter which one I think is a little bit more scummier? No. Do I have a numerical value system that I can use to assign scum points? No. It doesn't work that way. I think they're both scummy. If we had to lynch right here right now I'd be happy with either one. So think about it and tell me why it's important for me to answer your question. Except you already answered it, we can't lynch both scum in one day and I'm perfectly willing to compromise if it still means someone I scum read is lynched at the end of the day. This is just Alex thinking he can make himself look town by asking inconsequential questions and looking busy.

Hint for you: I'm perfectly capable of stating which one I think is scummier and I don't think any town player here cares what that answer is, really. I'm holding back on answering not because I'm afraid of revealing my deep dark secrets, but because I'm opposed right now to what your doing in this game and I want everyone to be aware of it.

Prove me wrong by telling me what critical information you were hoping to gain by this question. How would you have reacted if I said I think Foxbird's scummier? How would you have reacted if I said Inspector's scummier? Give me something insightful enough and I'll drop it.

[arak-and-skhug]

Actually I'm not being defensive in this case because I have nothing to defend! You keep trying to make this about me and my response when it's actually to be about you and your empty, busy question. Funny that you choose "defensive" as your go-to word because it's been proven to have gotten votes on me earlier in the game and thus is a safe choice for a scum fabrication.

You didn't answer part of my post. Is it better for a town player to be with a lone vote on someone all by him or herself, or on a wagon with two others. Both targets seem scummy. What would you do?

Also you want my reads on everyone? I'll go ahead and say I'm pretty sure we'll find at least one scum somewhere within you, Cakez, Foxbird, and Inspector, and I'm most confident in the towniness of Wirt and (perhaps surprisingly) Huntress. Charloux, I find decent enough but I haven't gotten around to scrutinizing him to deeply.

[arak-and-skhug]

Welcome Chip Butty! Can't wait to hear your thoughts!

And apparently I need to clarify.

This post:

If on the off chance that Inspector & Foxbird are the scumteam, that was a MAJESTIC bailout by the Inspector himself.

Cakez, you never answered my question in 45

I'll rephrase it. Basically your original reason for voting me was my (admittedly-potentially-irrational-but-that's-irrelevant-to-this-question) fear of a mislynch on Alex. Why is that a scumtell worthy of a vote?

was not me buddying to Inspector. Nor was it was a compliment. Subtlety is apparently lost on some. This post was pointing out the buddying between Inspector & Foxbird. Did anyone else think that was a genuine compliment other then Inspector? (and Foxbird following Inspector's lead) I know sarcasm doesn't always translate into text but I thought that was pretty clear. Like I literally called him potential scum in that post, in what world is that buddying!

[arak-and-skhug]

I might not get around to doing a post by post on Alex if Foxbird and Inspector keep being this scummy together and distracting me.

(Also Cakez comment on his meta adds to it but I was already getting a feeling that me vs. him was town vs. town and I'm just being stubborn and trying to prove my point. At the moment there's two lynch candidates head and shoulders above Alex in my opinion)

[arak-and-skhug]

actually let me just end things with Alex by answering his stupid question.

I THINK FOXBIRD IS SCUMMIER THEN INSPECTOR BUT I THINK INSPECTOR IS MORE LIKELY TO GET LYNCHED AND I THINK HE'S ALMOST JUST AS SCUMMY SO YALLA I'M ON THAT WAGON

happy?

[arak-and-skhug]

Alex why do you think I reacted like I I did initially?

If you still think your question was so bone-crushingly hard-hitting and it just rattled me so much that I was forced to be defensive, you have zero reading comprehension. and then off you go again pooping out a new worthless post for every post you see. Like seriously did your welcome for Chip need its own post?

All I'm saying is that if your scum what your doing makes sense. And if your town it doesn't. Because right now for me it's just the equivalent of someone making a lot of noise. If you could have understood why I responded like I did I would have an easier time believing you're town but you're pulling teeth comment applies that you apparently still don't get it.

[arak-and-skhug]

Okay doing an ISO now because Alex still bothers me. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag so that everyone doesn't get a head ache from quotes on quotes on quotes., this is basically a run through of every time he does this quote + one question thing and how much he accomplishes by doing it.

Spoiler: Alex ISO Part One

So how much experience do all new players have with mafia? Played much before offsite or is MafiaScum basically it so far?

Only Foxbird answers this question that was asked to everyone, Alex doesn't follow up on it in any way.

I feel like a bad guy here... Sorry Alex, i just heard wagons were good to get the game going.
@Arak: you are being too paranoid, i don't think a page 1 lynch happens that often; maybe 1 in 1000 games?

I forgive you

What changed for you between this game and your previous completed newbie games? You seemed opposed to RVS voting early in those games. Just the hearing about wagons thing?

Charloux answers this question, Alex again doesn't follow up on it in any way or ever mention his meta on Charloux again.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

You seem nervous about this wagon. Do you really think scum would expose themselves like that?

I'm getting a slight scum-vibe from this post.

Vote: Arak

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

Town won that so you'd like scum to win this one?

Okay Huntress go ahead and take us out of RVS before everyone's even gotten here.
UNVOTE: ashley

1) In regards to the Alex wagon being a mistake: I've looked around in other newbie games and crazier things have happened. No, it's not likely that Alex would get lynched, but what good comes out of wagoning like that? Did we really gain any information from having a wagon on Alex? A RVS wagon doesn't do much of anything, people feel no pressure when there's no reasoning behind the votes. If Alex WAS scum he can just shrug and say oh well they're voting me because of my name, and then he doesn't have to defend himself and we're denied any information that would come of it.

2) Town won my last game so I want scum to win this one? What? Either you didn't think this one through all the way or you're making a low-energy effort to paint a throwaway statement as a tell. I said I lost last one so I want to win this one. Pretty sure motivation to win is an alignment neutral trait, but if you're going to try to erroneously generalize at least do it accurately. Scum LOST my last game so I want town to win this one. Because I was scum last game and town this game. And both games I want/wanted to win. Do I need to simplify more?

I do find this post to be pretty defensive for fairly little reason.
Why did you remove your RVS vote?

I didn't realize you weren't being serious and I didn't realize I overreacted.

And yes while it's true that we're gaining information, we're only gaining it on 3-4 players. Half the town didn't participate in RVS. And I don't know how critical or not that is but it seems to me like a bad idea because scum can hide in all those holes. Of course the game needs to progress and we have to do something but we just need to be mindful of who hasn't had a chance to post yet and how it's easy to hone in for good or for bad on more active players.

Also Charloux, what does it mean to be overly honest? Does town have any reason to be anything less then honest?

This sort of checks out in some ways but it's also very early to be anxious about this sort of thing. Do you think it would be bad if scum missed out on RVS?

Okay so here Alex picks one post and quotes it just to say its defensive. A few posts later he'll say defensiveness isn't a scumtell. Ok so that was a wase of time. As for the questions you ask in the post, let me prove my point by answering them. Why did I unvote? RVS is over. Is it bad if scum missed out on RVS? It's not good. But it's not critical. It's just a little less information for the town. These are such no-risk no-reward questions. Nothing about my alignment is revealed by answering them, but more noteworthy, nothing is revealed about Alex's alignment by asking them. He's hiding.

Post 27 is fluff
Post 28 is fluff

What i think is that arak is def on my nullscum list for that reaction, but not more than that. Flailing isnt necessarily a scum thing; dont forget this is a newbie game, we (yes im a newb too) tend to stress a lot when they are suspected, regardless of alignment.
Im keeping my rvs vote tho, ill let huntress continue their discussion, id love to see what foxbird has to say

Yeah agreed. Defensiveness isn't necessarily a scum tell here. But it's worth noting how he reacts under pressure.

Okay a few quick thoughts cause i just worked all night and need to sleep.

1) L-2s make me uncomfortable. L-1s even more so. Is that a playstyle thing? yes. Is that problematic? apparently. should it be? I don't think so.

It is a playstyle thing and I would have been somewhat more concerned if I made it to L-1, L-2's not such a big deal though. The odds of a lynch happening are fairly small. I don't think it's scummy for you to dislike the RVS L-2 though.

4. I unvoted Ashley because RVS is over and it's stupid at this point to have my vote on someone because someone else stole my gummi worms in middle school.
Foxbird and Alex, can you share any reasons why I should I have kept my vote on Ashley?

Your vote is weaker when it's not on someone, even if it's on someone over gummi worms. It just seemed odd to remove it without placing it elsewhere. But I think this is probably just a difference in playstyles.

Let's break this one down according to Alex:
Quote one: dismisses the only criticism he's made against any other player so far. Also Alex quote something he doesn't find scummy
Quote two: Alex quotes something he doesn't find scummy
Quote three: Alex quotes something that he thinks he just different playstyles, AKA not scummy!

So that was another post that accomplished nothing except made Alex look busy.

I'll ignore the prodge in 73 because I don't think activity or lack there-of is a reliable alignment indicator, but it would fit with all this hiding in plain site.

So I'm getting caught up, I'll just post things as I see them.

I find this:

5. Foxbird, your vote is on me to see my defense. What specifically do you want me to defend against? Your vote? Or just in general? If I jump around in a town t-shirt, would that qualify?

What you posted is what I wanted to see - just the whole 'how does he react under pressure?' thing. I like your reaction, though I find the 'Town T-Shirt' comment a bit strange.
And yes, many of the 'issues' probably boil down to playstyle etc, so I'm moving my vote to someone who I want to see do something for now.

Hmm...
UNVOTE: Arak
VOTE: Wirt

Let's see what he says after catching up!

To be more likely coming from town more so than scum. That's provided Arak's town. While the Wirt vote is fairly weak, I don't see why scum!Foxbird moves off of a wagon that has momentum to apply pressure on someone who hadn't even posted at that point. Unless Arak's her scum partner and she was legitimately afraid that he was at risk of being lynched, but that seems unlikely to me.

Here he finds Foxbirds switch to Wirt to be a towny move? What? Haha maybe you're her partner. Alex can't find a single motivation for a scum Foxbird to go off the wagon. Not one. Look at this wishy-washiness...."Oh, but maybe Arak's her partner oh but maybe not." "Oh, that vote was weak, but also likely town"

Still nothing critical said. No strong reads. No pushes. No critiques. Still just Alex coasting along, no risk and no reward. moving on!

Hello folks

shalom yall

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

Anyway.

One time when I was in middle school a girl named Ashley stole my gummi worms and I never really got over it.
So
VOTE: ashley

As several other have noted, the third paragraph here is very bizarrely paranoid. And the follow-up to being questioned by Huntress also looked very defensive to me. A good vote to get me into the game.


VOTE: arak

Wait what. Am i the only one that thinks this is an extremely convenient hop on?

And arak saying that he didnt really flail is a rather town move; if he was scum he wouldve most likely tried to avoid discussion about that

I find it kind of sheepy, but not necessarily scummy.

Look at this multiple post sequence being quoted and reposted just that we all know that Alex thinks this interaction wasn't scummy. Busy busy busy busy busy Alex scumhunting so hard.

I'm going to have to finish this later but go ahead and take a look inside, it's worth it just to see how empty his posts are when they're all lined up next to each other.

[arak-and-skhug]

Alex why do you think I reacted like I I did initially?

Beats the hell out of me.

If you still think your question was so bone-crushingly hard-hitting and it just rattled me so much that I was forced to be defensive, you have zero reading comprehension. and then off you go again pooping out a new worthless post for every post you see. Like seriously did your welcome for Chip need its own post?

Point to where I felt my question was so "bone-crushingly hard-hitting". I asked you a simple question and you flipped out. The question wasn't a big deal but you completely blew it out of proportion.
I felt the need to be friendly and welcome someone to the game. Why does it bother you so much?

All I'm saying is that if your scum what your doing makes sense. And if your town it doesn't. Because right now for me it's just the equivalent of someone making a lot of noise. If you could have understood why I responded like I did I would have an easier time believing you're town but you're pulling teeth comment applies that you apparently still don't get it.

We clearly have two different playstyles. Although it feels an awful lot like you're trying to discredit what I say.

It beats the hell out of you? Are you reading my posts? I'll explain it again. I found your questioning to be scummy and/or not pro-town because it was an empty question with an easy answer that wasn't going to reveal much by me answering it and I protested it to either get you off autopilot if your town or blow your cover if your scum. It had nothing to do with the actual question itself which was just the latest in easy questions that you've done nothing with. If you used all these questions to compile an information rich post for all the town to benefit from it would be one thing. But you haven't.

It bothers me that you're cluttering the thread with empty posts and blowing your post count up and trying to look busy without taking any risks, making any pushes, or landing any solid criticisms. It's lovely to welcome someone but all it takes is one sentence at the top of a game related post. When people aren't concise and game threads bloat, scum thrives.

[arak-and-skhug]

Alex, posts like 165 are exactly what I was missing from you.

I'm townreading Huntress because she's consistantly made sense to me, moving the game foward in a pro-town way, being genuine and concise, scum hunting and providing information
My quip about bone-crushing hard-hitting questions was me making fun of you for not realizing that I didn't actually care that much about your question. All you could see was my reaction and you didn't and still don't I think understand why I reacted like that. If you still don't understand what I was doing, I don't think you ever will.

But I do like 165! So there's that. So maybe I got through to you somehow! Except I disagree with one major point. I don't think Foxbird jumping first off my wagon clears her to be town for a few reason.
One - in the first couple posts of the game I looked like a super easy bandwagon with the IC on my back and Charloux deciding I'm probably prone to be taken advantage of
Two - Cakez joining my wagon actually discredited it because he joined so badly.
Three - by this point various people including you were starting to say I wasn't scummy.
Four - so Foxbird felt the winds changing and got nervous and went from me (who looked like an easy target but then was started proving more difficult) to Wirt (who also looked like an easy target because he hadn't joined yet)
Five - I think it was my post 45 (in which I quietly called out Cakez and Foxbird following Huntress with bad reasoning) and you backing it up right after that reversed the momentum on my wagon, rather then Foxbird's unvote.


I think Foxbird is intelligent enough to have sensed that I wasn't going to be quicklynched, (and it was obvious that I wasn't going to be quicklynched) and unvoted either because she got nervous, or because she calculated that it would help her look town, or some combination of both.


Also, I might be stretching here, but Foxbird said something that I think actually might clear Inspector if Foxbird flips scum. I'll give a cookie to anyone else that caught it.

[arak-and-skhug]

Foxbird, there's absolutely no reason why town should be speculating on potential PR slips. You're only highlighting it for scum that might have missed it. That probably wasn't a slip, most games (especially on other sites I believe) default to having two PRs and it's an easy assumption for someone to make.

If our PRs are intelligent enough they could get through this without drawing a target. I'm personally for the plan, but Charloux isn't my first choice to force a claim from. We'd be putting a lot of confidence in your meta on him, and you're off to a good start Chip but I want to see more from you before I have that confidence. I think Inspector would be a better choice.

[arak-and-skhug]

wow but all post 200 does is make me doubt the scum read on Foxbird that I had until this point. Foxbird is playing better. The last post she made that had anything that looked scummy to me is post 147. I thought her "Oh I'm screwed if Inspector flips scum" thing was ploy by scum...If she's scum and Inspector's town, she knows that. So here's her chance to ride a Inspector lynch and say "oh look you guys were wrong about him so that means you were probably wrong about me." Maybe that's overly speculative on my part. And since then I've liked her posting, and Charloux is making her look town right now.

In regards to Charloux, while I don't think people raging and lashing out necessarily makes them scum (anger and yelling by itself def isn't a scumtell) I find it weird that Charloux was so calm and non-committal and now is freaking out at the prospect of getting lynched. Town shouldn't freak out like that. Town's game isn't over is they get mislynched, there's nothing to panic about. Obviously, if you know your town, you should defend yourself until the end, but this isn't a rational defense, this is panicking.

Also forget anything calculated with claims, we're clearly not on the same page with it, i'm seeing people tossing around chained claimed and multiple claims and no one seems to know who wants what when all Chip wanted was ONE forced claim on ONE scummy looking player and even then to hold off lynching him until closer to deadline. But people seem to be confused by it and when people are confused, things backfire. So maybe we should all just drop it.


Oh and I almost forgot. VOTE: Charloux

That's L-1 people! I repeat. L-1

L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1

proceed with caution.
but proceed nontheless.

[arak-and-skhug]

Also Cakez is the one that agreed with me about wanting Inspector, not Alex. Foxbird you must have misread.

Also Cakez, there's no need to drum up anything between Alex and myself, I like what he's posting now. Also my comment about your meta on him was in reference to the statement you've made twice now that you've seen these kinds of posts from a town-aligned Alex before.

[arak-and-skhug]

Seriously? You're gonna self-hammer?

[arak-and-skhug]

215 was posted by Cakez not Alex

I have a lot I could say about self-hammering and how I wasn't even convinced Charloux was scum and was more just curious about how'd he react under L-1 pressure, but there you go.

There's a little bit in the wiki that says it's occasionally strategic for scum to self hammer to deny town the little bit of information that comes with decisions being made at the end of the day, so out of respect for you Charloux I'm just going to pretend you were going for that and not quitting.

[arak-and-skhug]

Just to save you time during your ISO, I'm Arak and not Alex.

I voted him because I had a feeling he would unravel at L-1 and get even angrier and emotional, not for a forced claim. I didn't expect him to self hammer. People can be really revealing when they're emotional so I wanted to see what would come out up him (he had promised to "go crazy"), and I felt like this group was responsible enough not to hammer prematurely. I wasn't even convinced he was scum honestly, I just think that it's harder to fake towniness in emotional situations and Charloux raging could incite other people to rage and we'd all have a fun informative time. Didn't end up working out that way though obviously, I was expecting a bang and got a whimper.

Btw are we allowed to be discussing things like this after the hammer?

[arak-and-skhug]

Fear of looking scummy/opportunistic is only a good reason not to do something if you're scum. town should vote for whoever they want with the purpose to lynch scum. If you think someone is scum and you don't vote them, that's not pro-town. Even if casting that vote will make people suspicious of you, it's scummy not to do it. If you're town, doing something to advance your win condition that still might get you lynched is no big deal. If you're scum, it obviously is.

Inspector is at the top of my scum list going into Day 2.

[arak-and-skhug]

what if we all mass claimed? worst case we might lose a PR but if everyone with a night action comes out and says who they targeted shouldn't we be able to narrow it down pretty quick? And with only one scum left if there was a CC we could just lynch both of them and still come out on top. Let me know what you think, maybe I'm being rash.

until we have a better plan I'm down with continuing the Inspector wagon

VOTE: Inspector

[arak-and-skhug]

yo we don't even know if we have a cop. also if we mass claim there's so many ways for a counter claim to happen...for example if scum claims doctor, either the real doctor, the one-shot, or the jailkeeper could counter depending on what we have. That alone if a 50/50 percent chance for scum to mess up

[arak-and-skhug]

Chip there's no daytalk, it's been mentioned already. Are you faking a townslip over here? I'm finding your push on me a little bit out of left field. From what I gather it's mostly a tone thing? Also I already said I voted Charloux for pressure. His last couple posts, 200 and 210 especially, gave me the feeling he was about to fly off the handle, and I wanted to make that happen. That's why I voted without reason because votes for pressure are best left unexplained. I didn't predict a self-hammer at all.

Anyway Chip are you town reading Inspector? And that me or Wirt is more likely to be scum then him?

Why do you think he has a three person wagon on him?

Who do you think was the most likely person for our Cop or JK to target?

I think you've got 170 backwards. me, you and Wirt are all being read as town pretty much across the board. It makes sense for Charloux to just pick three generically towny players (after all he knows we're town). Especially because he has no explanation for his proclamation, just emptily stating he won't vote any of us. I don't see scum making a statement like that towards their buddy.

Inspector is still my biggest scum read but putting him aside for now, I don't like how Cakez and Wirt are trying to out a potential cop by pushing FtC when we don't even know if we have a cop, I think Cakez might have faked a townslip between 127 and 129 and I don't like how Chip went from calling for a Jailkeeper outing in his first post of a day and now one page later is taking it back after no one took his bait and other people had the chance to disagree. I also find Chip to be the most responsible for Charloux's lynch, which could be a good thing, but bussing is a thing that exists.

[arak-and-skhug]

Yeah but I've seen Alex online once or twice, he wouldn't miss submitting a nightkill. You're continuing to look at everybody but Inspector and suggest very unlikely theories while avoiding the occam's razor of the simplest solution of what's really going on. Try to be more perceptive

Foxbird I think have the bulletproof claim might not be a bad idea. Another thing we could do would be just have everyone go around and say who they would have targetted if they were cop or JK, and see if there's a consensus. I have a feeling we're all going to say Inspector, it was the obvious choice. I have a feeling Inspector was the most like candidate to have gotten targetted by a cop or JK and if that's true it basically means if we have a cop he's most likely town and if we have a JK he's most likely scum. Also he's been lying very low today, if he is scum he's probably hoping Chip continues to throw out these stretches and he's hoping one of them will catch fire.

[arak-and-skhug]

I'm not scum. What else do you have on me other then gut? I can't believe that you find me to be the scummiest player right now if we're going on anything but gut.

And I'm not saying we should rush into lynching Inspector, I just happen to find it scummy that Chip won't mention him. Chip is second on my scumlist.

Huntress is actually right though that we shouldn't be getting tunnel vision about the setup right now. (I'm guilty too) I think we're seeing this no nightkill and thinking we're way close to solving this, if we had all the night actions on the table we probably could solve this today or tomorrow, and that might be true, but there's still no need to rush it. We have plenty of time to secure a win without dropping the ball. Once the time comes for people to start revealing their night actions everything will start falling into place

Foxbird I think there's a difference between productive scumhunting, which should be encouraged, and creating longshot theories that just muddy the waters. That and the PR baiting are contributing to my scumread, but right now a lot of is just gut which is why my vote is staying on Inspector because I like to vote on more than just my gut.

[arak-and-skhug]

Huntress & Foxbird, who would you guys have targetted last night if you were the cop or JK?

[arak-and-skhug]

Huntress, by asking people who they would have targetted I'm trying to find out who the target was without exposing the PR. With no NK I think it would be very helpful to know who was targetted! So far everyone has said they'd have targetted Inspector except for Inspector himself. Because of that I'm close to assuming Inspector was the target tonight. So if down the road we find out we have a cop that clears him, and if down the road we find out we have an JK that most likely means he's scum. Why are you opposed to answering the question? If everyone answers noones gonna look any more PR-y then the next. If everyone answers who they hypothetically would have targetted how does it narrow down anything? I'm not seeing eye to eye with you here.

[arak-and-skhug]

also I actually wouldn't be opposed to claiming with Inspector if that simplified things for everyone.

[arak-and-skhug]

lol i said it was useless because I already said that it had nothing in it before. I said that it was just filler without having any stuff in it, yet you asked me to break it down. What did you expect? Im sorry but i cant write whole pages about a post that already contains nothing.

Except that the fact that it contained nothing, if true, is salient in itself. Breaking it down and showing that each section is just fluff isn't "useless", it helps build a case on Charl who, of course, actually was scum.

And it wasn't me who requested the breakdown. It was Cakes, from memory...

ok sorry then it was cakez, but that doesnt change anything. If i say it is full of fluff, you can see that for yourself without making me break it down completely and then say it was half-assed because charloux would be my scumbuddy. thats just bullshit. how would you have broken it down if you were me? at that time i had other stuff to worry about than some breakdown about a wall post that i already disliked because of the emptiness

^what other stuff were you worried about?

[arak-and-skhug]

also I actually wouldn't be opposed to claiming with Inspector if that simplified things for everyone.

Lemme guess....hmmm....

VT, right? /sarcasm

. But, yeah, go ahead.

Don't give me any ideas! And by the way, I really don't mean to sound angry in my posts. I'm one hundred percent not angry at all. You'll just have to take my word for that, seeing as this game is played through text and not vocally and there's always room for text to be misinterprated. Just like when you made jokes and I thought you were serious.

[arak-and-skhug]

so why didn't you prove to everyone you were town by putting effort into requests that people made of you? What do you have to lose? If your town you shouldn't have anything to hide

[arak-and-skhug]

Here's all the reasons their might have been no night kill, in what I think is most likely to have occured to least. Please tell me if I'm missing something!

1. Jailkeeper targetted Scum

2. Doctor protected Intended Target

3. Scum accidently hit Bullet-Proof

4. Scum failed to submit night action.

That's all right? I just think it's so much more likely that a town PR succeeded in an offensive night action vs. a defensive one. Because there was really one best choice to pick on the offense, but lots of towny looking people who could have been the nightkill, I don't know how a doctor would have chosen.

Of course anything could happen. Maybe our last scum is just super crafty and he or she didn't submit a night action because he or she knew it would mess us up like this and let our PRs think they're hot on the trail when they're really way off. But at some point we're going to have to accept the fact that we'll never know for sure and maybe we just need to pick the most like option and roll with it. And I think what most likely happened last night was a jailkeeper jailkept Inspector. I could easily be so way off that I'll look back and say "what an idiot" but this is where my head's at right now.

[arak-and-skhug]

uhh, arak, you forgot 1 slight detail: if jailkeeper jails the kill target, the target wont be killed either.

You're right, I didn't think of that.

But if I'm assuming you were the JK's target, I highly doubt you were also the nightkill target. If you are town, at the end of Day1 you were looking like the most likely next to be mislynched. Why would scum try to kill you? They don't know if their dealing with a doctor or not, they probably would have targeted some middle of the road town looking person to dodge a potential doctor save while still guaranteeing they knock somebody out.

Also if anyone else other then Chip finds my post 331 to be empty finger-pointing at Inspector, I'll be happy to elaborate, but I think I made my point more fully than he's giving me credit for. For all of Day 2 Chip has been pushing hard against me, and his go-to move is quoting my posts and then telling you "what I REALLY meant" which as a stand-alone method has so many holes in it.

If I get lynched through some freak accident make sure you start with my wagon tomorrow because I'm almost positive there's scum already on it.

[arak-and-skhug]

Huntress I like what you're saying. By the same line of thinking, I've been questioning whether or not this:

VOTE: charloux yes im scum but i didn't buddy chip, that was just me playing how i always do.

is just the most obvious distancing ever, a post-hammer last-ditch attempt to clear his partner.

[arak-and-skhug]

No scum reason except to use it now to try to make yourself look town. To replace in and immediately bus your partner is a very bold move, but it's not unheard of, and here you are today using it for town points. I think a town player would be more inclined to let actions speak for themselves and not need to say "look at this thing I did! Why would scum do that?" That's wifom and it doesn't really work. And you do seem like a wacky schemes kind of player.

Why didn't you join the Inspector wagon? To me he looked scummier then Charloux at the time when you replaced in, I'll have to go back and reread it cause memory's failing, but I remember not being very impressed with the reasoning behind the Charloux wagon. Also when are you going to get around to finishing your analysis on Inspector like you said you would?

Inspector looked like he could have been an easy lynch yesterday and today there's still the possibility. If he's around tomorrow he'll still probably be a candidate. This is the kind of player that scum likes to keep around. Chip claims not to be avoiding him but lets count the posts where he talks about his Inspector analysis that HAS YET TO COME

Anyway Chip are you town reading Inspector? And that me or Wirt is more likely to be scum then him?

Why do you think he has a three person wagon on him?

I can see why people are suspicious of Inspector.

I'll look more closely at his ISO and his Charl associations when I have time, maybe 10-12 hours from now

. Not Townreading him; wouldn't be surprised to learn he is the scum.

And I'm not saying we should rush into lynching Inspector, I just happen to find it scummy that Chip won't mention him. Chip is second on my scumlist.

I'm not avoiding mentioning Inspector at all

.

I said I would be back with an analysis of ISOs and Charl associations, and that will happen.

But when I logged in recently I looked at the activity chart and Alex's absence leapt out at me. Plus, I wanted to reply to Fox's point about the likelihood of Scum!you bussing Charl. N

ow I have one more post to get out of the way before getting down to my Inspector analyses. That post will be about the apparent anger you are displaying in your reaction to this push on you.

@Fox: I don't see anything seriously wrong with your BP-claim idea, but I'm not going to focus on working out the setup right now. It will come out in the wash; I'd rather scum-hunt.

You know, I've changed my mind about the BP thing. Now I think the BP, if there is one, should def NOT claim. Reason: It's just going to make it less damgerous for scum to fakeclaim.

Depending on how my analysis of Inspector goes

, I wouldn't mind forcing a claim from Arak. In the meantime, I don't think anyone should answer his setup questions; he might just be fishing for a safe fakeclaim.

It's just so... non-committal. He quotes the post and most of his comments aren't really comments, they're summaries. The questions he asks aren't very critical and reference things that can be read as rather neutral, like using too many words to say something or not wanting to put in effort to read 50+ pages. After his analysis, he doesn't follow up with how the post influenced his read (he doesn't even go back to his read at all), he just quickly goes on to say he's going to focus on someone/something else now. I don't like it.

Yeah, I wonder if it is a playstyle thing? I might have to look at another of his games

when I'm doing my Inspector-analysis...

In fact, that just looks so bad that it deserves a vote, even b

efore I finish my Inspector analysis.

VOTE: ARAK

You've been alledgedly working on this Inspector analysis for days. It looks to me like you're trying to look town and look busy pursuing a popular scum target when in reality the last thing you would want to do is lynch Inspector because (if he is town) the longer he'll be around the more likely he'll be mislynched. You'd much rather get me out of the way today wouldn't you?

It's funny that you were the first one scumreading me, but you didn't put your vote on me until a player widely considered to be town (Huntress) started the wagon. If Inspector's town, he's following her for self-preservation and then scum!Chips gets his exciting opportunity to jump on third. First to scumread but third on the wagon is questionable.

[arak-and-skhug]

You know what, you've managed to surpass Inspector in my scum book. If we had to lynch at this very second I'd rather it be you then him at this point.

VOTE: Chip Butty

[arak-and-skhug]

So far everyone has said they'd have targetted Inspector except for Inspector himself.

As far as I can see, it was only you and Foxbird who said that. Where are the others?

Chip also. But yeah you caught me I was definitely exaggerating, it's a bad habit. 3 out of 8 does not equal "everyone but you"

Huntress I still don't fully understand your vote on me, the other two I get but I don't understand what you're doing on my wagon.

[arak-and-skhug]

I could have revised that statement to be more accurate if it said "everyone who's answered the question said Inspector except for Inspector himself"

[arak-and-skhug]

I'm giving Wirt the benefit of the doubt until I see more from him today. Sometimes real life just happens.

And Chips I see you dodging me calling you out for your Inspector weirdness! Also your OMGUS is weak here. I've been scum reading you for a while now and while the timing of your vote on me is certainly scummy it's not the only thing I'm voting you for. It seems like you're accusing me of OMGUS simply because you don't have anything else to go on. I'm happy with my vote

[arak-and-skhug]

Under normal circumstances I would disagree and say we just need to suck it up and persue our scum reads but I feel like scum could really thrive in this kind of apathy and it's not fun to be at a standstill, so yalla lets go for it. I'm not afraid to be lynched either. But I'm just going to say if anyone's looking at us as equally scummy, it's better to lynch Inspector first, and I'm not just saying that for selfish reasons. Unless something changes it'll come down to Alex and Wirt to decide between us and that could be interesting.

VOTE: Inspector

Honestly though I'd still rather lynch Chips then you, but let's shoot some energy into this game and maybe give PRs another night to see what's up.

[arak-and-skhug]

But I'm just going to say if anyone's looking at us as equally scummy, it's better to lynch Inspector first, and I'm not just saying that for selfish reasons.

Pray, elucidate...

Do your Inspector ISO and then I'll elucidate

[arak-and-skhug]

Yeah but she clearly had been thinking about it, her 351, 353 and 365 all show her thinking about it. She's the only vote on your wagon (Some people are saying there are two votes and that it was L-3, they are mistaken. I was voting Chip, I unvoted to vote Inspector, then Huntress voted Chip. Only one vote). I think you panicked because Huntress voting you lends more credibility to the possibility of you being scum, she's been read as town this whole game, and I've been read pretty scummy. So when I was the only one pushing you, you felt like you could get away with being condescending and discrediting me, but you just found out get away with that with Huntress. All I see in Chip's 402 is calculated backtracking.

Did you think about that for even a minute? Arak is telling us we would be better of lynching Inspector over him today, but won't say why, and he wants an ISO of Inspector. Why? If Inspector is going to be lynched as he wants, why?

Why are you acting like I can't change my vote? I'm pretty sure I didn't enter a signed-in-blood, death-to-us-part marriage contract with Inspector and I can put my vote back on you whenever I want! Like, for example, now!

VOTE: Chip Butty

(now there's two votes on him)

I'm allowed to think multiple people are scum even if there's only one scum left. And I'm allowed to not be sure if lynching the person I want will end the day. I "agreed" to Inspector's plan knowing it would drum up discussion and shoot some energy into this group, which is something the town desperately needs. Of course it would be stupid as town for us to set our next two lynches in stone. Anything can happen and a successful town is a reactive town. Inspector's intentions were to get things moving and he obviously succeeded in that. And suddenly I'm thinking I was maybe mistaken for tunneling him so long.

Couldn't have been for long, since you posted 5 minutes after me.

Why would I not ISO Inspector? Do you think he and I are scumbuddies? Because there is just one scum left, you know...

I'm not sure if your talking to me or Huntress in this quote but if its me this is the second time you've "helpfully" informed me that there's only one scum left. GUESS WHAT I KNOW. When I said your go-to method on pushing me is discrediting me, and putting words and intentions in my mouth that I didn't mean, this is what I meant. All your doing is insulting my intelligence and annoying me. Is this all a big reaction test? You like to use big words and try to act smart, so I can't believe that you genuinely think the fact I want you to do ISO you've dodged doing so many times is because I forgot we lynched scum on Day One, which means your doing it on purpose to make me look stupid. Where's the town motivation behind that? And if that quote was directed at Huntress, that's even worse because it means you're using these tactics against multiple people which means your guaranteed to be using it against town.

Anyway

I'll say it as clear as possible:
I want your ISO on Inspector because I think it's weird that you've offered it so many times but never delivered. I want it because this whole thing started from me asking you if you seriously thought Inspector looked townier then I did, and you still needed to analyze him and you wouldn't be surprised if he's scum. (280 So technically I'm still waiting for an answer to that question and why your vote is on me and not him. (If you've only analyzed me of course you're going to think I'm scum) I want it because I think it's likely because I want to see how genuine it is, if you're scum you're gonna have to fabricate that whole scum read you promised way back 280. And before you started pushing me he was the only person with a wagon, I find it scummy that person would be the last one for you to analyze, unless your scum of course because someone like Inspector is exactly who'd you want to stick around so why would you push him? Refusing to do the ISO is like admitting guilt in my eyes. So good luck! Get on it.

[arak-and-skhug]

It's more WIFOMy now

Definitely not. VOTE: SirCakez

I can see how Inspector's plan can look WIFOMy

Q: Why would scum make that move?
A: To earn town points with a plan that probably isn't going to happen!

Q: Why wouldn't scum make that move?
A: Because if it goes to plan, town wins!

To get something out of it you'd have to go over Inspector's meta and how risky a player he is with a partner, and without a partner, and even then people can go against their meta so easily and the whole thing kinda ends up null. My gut is telling me a scum with no partner wouldn't make this move but that could be exactly what he wants me to think. So that's WIFOM.

[arak-and-skhug]

I'm allowed to think multiple people are scum even if there's only one scum left.

And if that quote was directed at Huntress, that's even worse because it means you're using these tactics against multiple people which means your guaranteed to be using it against town.

So... is treating more than one person as scummy good or bad now?

No, you misunderstood. I don't like how Chip uses discrediting as a "scum-hunting" technique because there's no information gained from it and there's no real way to defend against it, making it ideal for scum to use as they "help the town". If it was just on me then maybe it's all a reaction test but if he's using it on Huntress as well then it's clearly his go-to method. If he was just scum reading me and Huntress and making informative reads without all the "surely you don't think he's my scumbuddy" talk it would be different.

[arak-and-skhug]

I'm not the IC but I'll give my thoughts on your question Chip....in general, on paper, it's better to stretch the day out as long as possible, on the basis that more information, more time, and more interactions = better chances of catching scum. But that requires the whole town to be alert, focused, and motivated throughout the whole long day. In reality I think it's a definite possibility for a town to run out of steam or get distracted if the day is too long. Information overload is a real thing. It's a case-by-case basis and if you're gonna be truly pro-town you need to figure out the right balance, when to take the time to scratch away deeply and when to push the gas pedal to most benefit this combination of people. I can see why people think your plan to push Charloux to claim was scummy. Look how much effort its taking to get a four person wagon on anyone. If we got four people formed up on Charloux and then dispersed, it wouldn't be very likely that the wagon would form again, giving Charloux a free pass. Seeing as he's scum, the fact that you weren't just pushing him straightforwardly is questionable. It's like you were looking for a loophole, how to reap the benefits of bussing without actually losing your partner. Too bad you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Speaking of cake, I don't like Cakez's last post, where he's going out of his way to call Foxbird town. Almost everyone already thinks she's town, and her replacement request reads completely null to me (town and scum are equally likely to be anxious) so I don't understand Cakez highlighting it as a town tell. I don't know though what his scum motivation would be other then to look town if/when that slot flips.

Also, I'm taking a vacation in Thailand until the 23, so I'll be V/LA. I'll try to post from my phone as much as possible cause ten days is too long to just be gone, but my content is definitely going to drop.

[arak-and-skhug]

Welcome Cariad! Can't wait to see what you have to contribute

And Wirt the flaw in what you just posted is that his proposal changes people's read on him. Drop the concept of WIFOM for a second because I think people have slightly different categorizations for it, and ask did his proposal change people's opinions on him? (Answer is yes) So were the actions that caused that change genuine? Or with an intention to manipulate? (We can't really know). I think because of that people are bringing up WIFOM.

Anyway what else have you got on Cakez? Why did you want to start your own wagon on Cakez instead of joining voting for Chip, Arak, or me?

[arak-and-skhug]

Anyway what else have you got on Cakez? Why did you want to start your own wagon on Cakez instead of joining voting for Chip,

Arak, or me

?

WTF?

Yo calm down it's obviously a typo. I meant to say Chip, Inspector, or me

[arak-and-skhug]

I don't think H & I followed you Chip. I think you were poking around and seeing what would take off and once Huntress cast her vote it was your green light to buckle down. Let's be honest your case on me was weak, all you did was quote every time Charloux and I interacted and point out some times when I was "trying to look town"

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Hey Chip! Inspector should be lynched before me because obvious I'm townier. This shouldn't be that important to you. You can go ahead and think I'm scum cause at this moment your read on me is probably the least important.

Speaking of fishing, how scummy is it if one person vaguely hints at some unknown value and then someone else digs and dogs relentlessly at it?

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You don't know if I was trying to soft claim or not. Some players accepted it quietly but Chip won't let it go because he's either clueless or or trying to make sure he can nail a PR tonight after not getting anyone in night one. With that comment I was basically fishing for fishers and Chip has shown me that I should be happy with my vote.

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Wirt how come your coming down on Cakez' fishing but not Chip's?

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So if you weren't fishing why did you ask me twice to elaborate? If your town and I'm carelessly exposing myself, why make such a big deal about it? Why not just take the information for what it was and continue playing?

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VOTE: I'm on vacay and I'm busy riding elephants and getting drunk with my boyfriend, but I'll say this that I don't like Cariad's first post but I'm giving benefits of the doubt until I see more, and I think it's telling that the minute my wagon dwindled down to just Chip he suddenly happens to find Cakez scummier then me. What, now that he's not in the majority he suddenly believes my semi-soft claim after bashing me for it before? Lynch this guy already. And I don't like this dependence on meta because meta is unreliable and if Cakez is town how is he supposed to defend against this? Chip is pulling up any reason he can to join the most popular wagon other then him. I'll hopefully contribute more tomorrow or so.

[arak-and-skhug]

Sorry mod didn't mean to vote for nobody in the beginning of my last post. Like I said, drunk in Thailand

[arak-and-skhug]

H
Speaking of fishing, how scummy is it if one person vaguely hints at some unknown value and then someone else digs and dogs relentlessly at it?

You don't know if I was trying to soft claim or not. Some players accepted it quietly but Chip won't let it go because he's either clueless or or trying to make sure he can nail a PR tonight after not getting anyone in night one. With that comment I was basically fishing for fishers and Chip has shown me that I should be happy with my vote.

BS. You didn't "vaguely hint" at anything. You might as well as posted this:

I AM A PR!!!

[/colo

No need for scum.me or scum anyone else to fish. Or, if they were, they would try to find out exactly what role you have, and I didn't do that. So, no.

Also, once you "soft"(???) claimed like that, scum could target you already. No need for scum to call attention to themselves by questioning further.

No, you're scum and you are trying to get Inspector lynched ahead of you.

Inutterably sure?

Yeah I'm scum and trying to get Inspector lynched ahead of me

[arak-and-skhug]

Um sorry yeah I'm joking and I'm perfectly capable of posting, so keep on using stupid self-deprecating fluff to discredit the fact that I'm catching you contradicting yourself. You thought hard bussing Charloux would give you a pass for a while, too bad that didn't work out. Hot tip: desperation never looks town. It was funny when you made up a slip and then all of the town was like "yeah, no." Keep jumping from wagon to wagon until you find someone your uppity gameplay works against.

[arak-and-skhug]

Wow. I guess I really need to establish that I'm not actually drunk, I was making a joke because I'm posting from my crappy old phone and accidentally hit the vote button. Wow. Remind me never to post stupid personal shit in a game with Chip ever again. I'm doing my best to post once every 36 hours, so take what you can get. Chip's trying to do some smoke and mirrors and focus on my alcohol consumption to distract everyone from my points against him. Notice how his last three posts were just meant to undercut me without adding or responding to any content.

And yes, uppity gameplay. You love swinging around obscure words and ostentatious grammar and phrasing around to make yourself look more intelligent. Up until now I took it as an obnoxious NAI personality thing, but in your last push on Cakez it was suddenly scummy. Your push on him wasn't sharp and calculated, it was weird and confusing. And when Cakez got confused, like anybody would, you used that to justify your new vote on him. People play this game from all over the world. Not everyone speaks English as a first language. You can't use his confusion at your loquacious push as a scum tell. Huntress was confused too. So was Alex. So was I. Are we all scum? Or are you scrambling? What's more likely?

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Okay we're getting close to deadline and we're making no progress. We're diving deep into meta which in my opinion are fruitless.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be targeted anyway and I'd rather not die taking the information I have with me. Also I might not get to post for the next 48 hours. So I'm claiming fully

I'm the jailkeeper. I targeted Inspector in night one, and as we all saw, there was no kill. Because of this I came out of the gate tunneling Inspector hard. But over the course of the day I've found Chip increasingly scummy. His tone and posting now just seems like his back against the wall. But the main thing is I think he's known for a while that I'm JK and that I targeted Inspector and because of that he was so reluctant to pay attention to Inspector. He doesn't want Inspector lynched, he wants him around as long as possible because after night one actions I'm never going to rule out the possibility that Inspector is scum and I blocked him Night One. Look back over my ISO and see how many times I said "hmm, pretty sure there's a JK and pretty sure he targeted Inspector wink wink nudge nudge." Look how before the day one end how I said blatantly that I'm targeting Inspector, because if I died and flipped, I wanted everyone to know he'd be cleared. It's my first time being a PR and I obviously need to work on my subtlety. I'm pretty sure most of you have known I'm the jail keeper for a while now. And it's funny to me because the post where I thought I was softclaiming, (can't go back and quote on my phone but it's the one where I listed possible reasons for the no night kill and said how sure I was that there was a JK targeting Inspector)....that post was the one Chip voted me for! When I posted it I thought Huntress or Wirt was going to yell at me for being to obvious. Instead, Chip voted me. Knowing I'm confirmed town now, go back and look at how obvious I've been and how empty his pushes on me have been.

Here's what I want to do now.
First, stop all this deep meta research/attempts to look busy.
Two, lynch Chip. If he flips town, I'll block Inspector again. If I die, he's confirmed town and you guys lynch Cakez. If there's no kill, Inspector's scum OR we have a wannabe clever scum opting not to kill or our BP got hit by chance. We lynch Inspector, and even if he flips town we still have an advantage moving forward. Anyway I know it's not perfect but we need to do something and I feel really confident we'll strike gold somewhere in there.

[arak-and-skhug]

And I forgot to add that the moment I felt that Scum Chip either knew or suspected I was JK targeting Inspector was when he suggested that the JK block the same target as Night One. He knows Inspector's town, he knows I was tunneled hard on him, and if I went after Inspector again with scum!chip still alive, there's his chance to kill the JK.

[arak-and-skhug]

No, Chip. You're wrong in 601. If there's a night kill while I'm blocking Inspector he's confirmed town and should not be lynched. If there's no night kill, and he's not scum, I have another chance to block and either get killed and confirm someone else's towniness or block scum. My plan isn't a guarantee but you're making it sound worse then is because you desperately want one more day.

I'd rather block Inspector tonight so there's less variables. Once your both dead the game will either be over or the obvious choices will be gone and we'll be able to really find scum. It would make things much clearer to me if we lynch Chip first. If anyone other then Chip has a strong objection I'll be happy to listen, but I'm going off reads, not just the night actions alone.

Also stop trying to appeal to emotions. I don't hate you, don't be ridiculous. The only time I was rude to you was after you said I "shouldn't post for my own good and everyone else's". I wasn't posting anything offensive and I was genuinely insulted by your comments, but I chose not to dwell on them after the fact because I'm pretty sure it's NAI. So feel free to drop this "Arak hates Chip" plot line because it's untrue and distracting

Saying I'm just being a petty bitch when I think it's pretty obvious I'm not just seems like your throwing down your last cards to either upset me or discredit me in the eyes of the town and prevent you're own lynch. Town should fight there own lynches with logic, not unproductive tactics

[arak-and-skhug]

I don't have much to contribute now sorry.

ITH is Intent to Hammer...like you announce your gonna hammer Chip, give some time for any objections, (usually a claim to but he already claimed VT somewhere I believe) and if no one says anything to chance your mind you go ahead and hammer.

All i see is Chip flailing and trying so desperately not to be lynched. Only scum loses when they are lynched

If Chip flips town (because nothing is infallible)

This:

Chip here's what's confuzzling me.
You had inspector as a strong enough townread to compare to a completed game where I had town at the bottom of my list.
But now you're voting him and have him as a top scumread?
It doesn't add up. I think you're town so work with me here.

Looks like scum trying to get credibility from a future town flip. "Like omg I knew Chip waz town all along, like why didn't you guys listened to me? Now we mislynched and I'm a great scum hunter! Go twon!"

[arak-and-skhug]

I would bet so much money on Foxbird/CK being the BP, both from no one claiming it even tho there's no reason not to, and a specific post that Foxbird made, (the one that Cakez got chewed out for dissecting). It looked to me like she was BP trying to ask for advice without giving herself away. Foxbird would have been a night kill target that makes sense too

Every time Chip says I'm only pushing him because I "hate him" makes me think he's more scum. It doesn't matter if anything I have against him is good or not, he's found a way to discredit it by saying I'm just attacking him for personal reasons. I assure you all, I'm not about to get so caught up in a game that I'll choose anything other then what I believe is the smartest way to proceed due to seeking vengeance against a nuisance. This last minute push against CK and this request for an extension just seem so transparent for me.

Anyway another reason I'd rather lynch Chip than Inspector because Chip is such an attention-sponge with his style and his multi-posts and his general all-over-the-placeness that even if he is town he provides the perfect smoke screen for UTR scum to hide behind. Inspector does not. If we're gonna lose a VT by accident this is the perfect one to lose. Lots of posting, lots of noise, very little productivity. And please don't claim responsibility for lynching Charloux because last time I checked there were four people (and a self-vote) on that wagon.

[arak-and-skhug]

Actually Chip, if in the end you are town and all this desperate AtE (you've yet to respond to any of my criticism against you with anything other then "Arak just says that because he hates me." No logic, no gameplay, just childish finger-pointing) is genuine, you're still gonna have a minimum of four town on your wagon. If four out of seven town think you're scum when you're not, clearly you're doing something wrong and maybe need to take your own game back to the drawing board. Unless of course we're all just petty bitches and fucking idiots, because that just makes so much more sense.

Pedit: make a note never to go to Vegas with Huntress. I figured if it was you, you would have claimed. But you being the Bp makes me that much happier with my vote on Chip. If he flips town obviously CK is going to warrant a looking over tomorrow but for now we just don't have the time.

[arak-and-skhug]

What are you getting at in 726, Chip? The fact that I thought Foxbird was scum way back when but it's clear and obvious to everyone that I changed my mind and have been considering that slot town for a while now? Why are you wasting time criticizing me when I'm confirmed town and we're so close to deadline? It wouldn't be because of pettiness would it?.........gasp!

[arak-and-skhug]

I jailed Inspector.

VOTE: inspectorscout

I'm not ruling out the possibility of scum trying to play tricky, but it just doesn't seem likely.

Lynching Chip wasn't dumb, if he was still being alive I would have had much harder time deciding who to jail last night, and if I was killed last night with everyone thinking I targetted Inspector when I didn't, it would have been real confusing for everyone else today. (It would have been the same if I didn't target anyone and then got killed)

[arak-and-skhug]

what do you have to gain as town by voting yourself?

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I think we should wait until we here from Cariad or until a replacement arrives before we lynch today, even though I'm pretty sure it will take a lot to change my mind

[arak-and-skhug]

While I'm not positive that Inspector is scum, I think lynching him is necessary because the simplest scenario is him being scum. And if he's town, scum is hiding behind him as a decoy. In the worst case we can afford to lynch another town to make sure scum is exposed.

I'm not sure its the best idea for me to annouce who I'll jail if Inspector flips town though....if its town wouldn't that just give scum the chance to no kill again and make tomorrow a repeat of today?

and Huntress it's interesting what you say about CK. I took Foxbird's "Shouldn't the BP claim?" as her trying to ask for help as the BP. But it would make sense too that she was trying to figure out who the BP was so she would know if she hit the BP or if she was jailed. It's entirely possible that the first night had no kill due to Foxbird hitting the BP and last night having no kill due to CK not submitting. But my gut is telling me to just go for the simplest solution right now and lynch Inspector

[arak-and-skhug]

It makes sense that its scum's best move to kill me, however that doesn't necessarily mean scum did the best move.

But anyway lets go ahead and lynch Inspector. If he flips town, I'll jail Cakez unless anyone has any objections.

[arak-and-skhug]

Yo I'm so tired of there being no night kill. Scum needs to stop trying to be so clever.

Who wants to guess who I jailed last night?
Hint 1: It might not be who I said it would be
Hint 2: It might not actually be anyone.

[arak-and-skhug]

I'm actually leaning towards Alex

I find his whole "Whoa, scum would never not kill Arak! I can't believe scum wouldn't kill Arak!" act smelly. He's coming on to it too strong and it makes me thing that he is exactly that, scum not killing Arak, and he's shooting for some kind of alibi with all of that.

VOTE: Alexcellent

[arak-and-skhug]

For the record I jailed Cakez last night. I wanted to see if anyone reacted weird if I was sketchy about it.

I've been a little distracted the last couple days but I'm still here! It's in my best interests to reread though and I'll get to that.

I like Huntress' plan. I have no problem jailing Cakez again. Out of the leftovers, I want to lynch Wirt the least, I'm pretty tied between Micc and Alex. Alex is more gut, I found him scummy early on in the game. Maybe it's too obvious but I feel like he was pushing "scum's best move is to kill" a little hard and didn't feel authentic. Micc I wouldn't mind lynching either, more because of the slot. If Foxbird was scum her interactions with Charloux make sense, and Cariad being inactive but not replaced yet over night could have let to no kill last night and after all this speculation about scum's motivation to do a no kill, it ended up just being inactivity. Wirt I feel like is playing with consistency and I'm reading him the most town out of the lynch options

[arak-and-skhug]

If we lynch Cakez it will do nothing to prevent just having a repeat of yesterday with a framed townie. If he's scum, he won't be able to kill anyway if I jail him again tonight

[arak-and-skhug]

yeah okay sound good

VOTE: Micc

[arak-and-skhug]

That's L-1 Micc btw.

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Huntress if you hammer before I get a chance to post again, I'm just letting everyone know that I'm going to jail Cakez again. It seems like the idaal situation, I feel like scum is most likely between Micc or Cakez, and either we get it right now and lynch scum and end the game, or if Micc flips town, then the other most likely scum is jailed and can't do anything. If i'm still alive tmorrow, I'm pretty sure its becaue scum wants to kill me and can't, because how long can you without killing the JK before it starts to get ridiculous

[arak-and-skhug]

Cakez if you were me who would you jail tonight?

[arak-and-skhug]

If you were the JK

[arak-and-skhug]

VOTE: SirCakez

If he flips town, I'll jail Alex. Either way, the game is won.

A) Cakez is scum and it ends now
B) Alex is scum, he's blocked tonight, and if I'm alive we lynch him tomorrow.
C) Wirt is scum, I die tonight, Alex and Huntress are confirmed town and lynch Wirt.

[arak-and-skhug]

Good game everyone! I enjoyed playing.

In post 597 when I claimed, I layed out my plan, banking all my confidence that we would find scum in Chip, Inspector, or Cakez.....well it took getting down to the last one but I was right! Turns out I didn't claim too early and doom the town after all! I'm proud of myself and everyone else, I've never seen a game with no night kills before and it took some adjusting but I think we all did well. I'm looking forward to crossing paths with all of you in future games!