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Post #149 (isolation #1) » Thu May 11, 2017 12:46 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
jj is a town lean for me. Seems to be actively trying to sort people and the fact that he pressured the IC immediately looks good to me. I don't think his case is very good though.
Fykus also leans town to me. He made a case on jj, who was probably the most vocal player out here. I think the wagon argument is a stretch, but I don't think scum would be ballsy enough to try and push that argument.
Everyone else is shades of null so far.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
In post 18, Fykus wrote:I'm tempted to L-1 you but I suppose I shouldn't, just in case scum decide to pull a fast one.
VOTE: Jax Teller
Because I hated jax by the end of that show.
The way Fykus mentions he'd like to put him at L-1 here then doesn't. Easy attempt for town cred but jj would have more than likely Unvoted himself. Fykus then blows this off a few posts later. Zito and jj get into a discussion and Fykus states jj won... Seems "convenient" to me that jj lost his discussion with Zito after jj was the one who brought up Fykus' L-1 comment. I personally don't think either side "won" that discussion. Then Fykus' post on 132 seems to be grasping at straws a little. It's also very well put together and planned out which makes me see Fykus' argument as "I'm scum defending myself trying to throw the attention on jj"
tbh I would also not put anyone at L-1 in a newbie game so early in the game. I don't see it as an attempt for town cred at all. Just playing safe.
How would you think town should have reacted to the pressure Fykus was on?
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
In post 18, Fykus wrote:I'm tempted to L-1 you but I suppose I shouldn't, just in case scum decide to pull a fast one.
VOTE: Jax Teller
Because I hated jax by the end of that show.
The way Fykus mentions he'd like to put him at L-1 here then doesn't. Easy attempt for town cred but jj would have more than likely Unvoted himself. Fykus then blows this off a few posts later. Zito and jj get into a discussion and Fykus states jj won... Seems "convenient" to me that jj lost his discussion with Zito after jj was the one who brought up Fykus' L-1 comment. I personally don't think either side "won" that discussion. Then Fykus' post on 132 seems to be grasping at straws a little. It's also very well put together and planned out which makes me see Fykus' argument as "I'm scum defending myself trying to throw the attention on jj"
tbh I would also not put anyone at L-1 in a newbie game so early in the game. I don't see it as an attempt for town cred at all. Just playing safe.
How would you think town should have reacted to the pressure Fykus was on?
Tchill, would you mind answering my question about Fykus?
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #209 (isolation #7) » Fri May 12, 2017 7:38 pm
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 208, Tchill13 wrote:I mean Fykus at the time had 2 votes? To me there's not a real threat of a wagon until he's at least L-2 so I would have liked to have seen him get there. I think his comment is getting a little less attention than it should because of how early in rvs it is. I'm fine with you saying he's null right now but I don't see how you could town lean Fykus at this moment.
you're dodging the question here.
You said earlier:
Then Fykus' post on 132 seems to be grasping at straws a little. It's also very well put together and planned out which makes me see Fykus' argument as "I'm scum defending myself trying to throw the attention on jj"
I'm failing to see how you're seeing Fykus's argument as scum defending and throwing attention on someone else. Wouldn't town attempt to do the same thing by trying to scumhunt?
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #236 (isolation #8) » Sat May 13, 2017 8:58 pm
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 210, Tchill13 wrote:Why is fykus pushing jj though? The only guy that has brought up the L-1 comment other than me. Then fykus consistently pushes jj. Much easier cases are to be made against Not_mafia and maybe even cero right now rather than making a case against jj. Wouldn't scum try to do what town would be doing anyway?
they would. But you said it yourself, there are much easier cases to be made. I think scum usually try and push the low-hanging fruit.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #251 (isolation #14) » Sun May 14, 2017 9:23 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 248, Tchill13 wrote:So if someone claims BP can we take turns claiming jail keeper then tracker to make sure he's telling the truth? I'm not a fan of his game up until this point.
The dude is confirmed town unless someone counterclaims. The way you're trying to out other PRs is extremely antitown.
I'd vote you but I'm not sure just how new you are.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #355 (isolation #15) » Sun May 14, 2017 8:38 pm
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 248, Tchill13 wrote:So if someone claims BP can we take turns claiming jail keeper then tracker to make sure he's telling the truth? I'm not a fan of his game up until this point.
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Post #356 (isolation #16) » Sun May 14, 2017 8:41 pm
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 266, Not_Mafia wrote:I've just laid out for you why he would and you're willfully ignoring it because people are conditioned to just automatically side the CCer, which is exactly the reaction Tchill wants.
Let me turn it around, if I'm scum, why would I claim?
Because you were under pressure and probably were going to have to claim anyway.
You took a gamble and it didn't work.
I don't see a newbie counterclaiming as scum here.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #372 (isolation #20) » Wed May 17, 2017 6:30 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
claiming BP doesn't make any sense to me though. If he had been CC-ed by the actual BP, he would have been lynched and they would have had no idea who the JK was.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #378 (isolation #21) » Wed May 17, 2017 6:42 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 373, jjh927 wrote:This is why I'm currently down for lynching the IC.
PEdit: Not Mafia's actions clearly make no sense whatsoever, as we must be in setup 2, meaning scum knew BP was not a safeclaim. I don't think it's worth discussing how bad claiming BP there was.
On the other hand, it seems to have netted scum both PRs, but we got a day 1 scum lynch so it's still very much worth imo.
Why are you looking at the IC specifically?
And why are you so sure we are in setup 2? BP was never a safeclaim, regardless of scum having a roleblocker or not.
I'm amazed they still killed Fykus though. That indicates to me that there is probably no RB, because Fykus wasn't conftown at that point. If they had an RB, they could roleblock Fykus until the game was over and got rid of conftown by killing Tchill.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #408 (isolation #27) » Wed May 17, 2017 7:34 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
Zito, your whole reads list seems to be based on who was on NM before he claimed and who was participating in the BP strategy.
How was Cece's case "pretty good" and how does it make him "very likely town"?
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
In post 408, Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote:Zito, your whole reads list seems to be based on who was on NM before he claimed and who was participating in the BP strategy.
How was Cece's case "pretty good" and how does it make him "very likely town"?
I think people who voted a scumslot prior to the claim are more likely to be town than not, yes. There was really no reason to bus at that point and put attention on a partner who was essentially lurking, especially when there were other soft targets and even more espeicallyer when the game had very little movement. I also think the people who were pushing the strategy are more likely town as well because that strategy is clearly in the town's best interests.
I have to disagree with you there. I think bussing NM for not providing any content is a great way to distance yourself early. But I can see why you would think that.
The BP strategy is null for me. I wasn't familiar with it before this game and I'd rather not take part in it ever again. It takes all the fun out of the matrix. So I fully understand kawl not wanting to take part.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #416 (isolation #30) » Wed May 17, 2017 7:57 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 414, Papa Zito wrote:I completely agree with you on it taking some of the fun out of the game and I really would like to see the setup fixed so it's no longer a factor. That said, I have a wincon to play to and that strat helps me achieve it.
true, I get that. I just think it's a bit cheap to scumread kawl for not wanting to participate.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
In post 414, Papa Zito wrote:I completely agree with you on it taking some of the fun out of the game and I really would like to see the setup fixed so it's no longer a factor. That said, I have a wincon to play to and that strat helps me achieve it.
Earlier I told kawl I understood where he's coming from but the BP strategy is the way to play if you want to win. So I think the fact that you'd argue against a strategy that's known for helping town win is questionable.
I've actually won games as town without the BP strategy. Surprising isn't it?
I play games to have fun in the first place, winning is my secondary object. I will try to win, but not at the cost of ruining (part of) the fun.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
In post 436, Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote:I assume you always start with your biggest reasons to scumread someone when you put out a readslist like that.
I also think as the IC you should know better than to scumread someone for something like that.
For your first - that's probably a bad assumption. Assumptions lose games. Don't make assumptions. Regarding your second, you have absolutely no idea how utterly sick I am of reading that sentiment.
Assumptions happen all the time. The key is to figure out if what you're assuming is correct.
I'm sure you've heard the IC thing 100 times before. It's just a fact people expect more from an IC than from any of the other players.
Have you taken part in the BP strategy before?
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
You're scumreading Kawl for bad reasons.
You're townreading Cece for bad reasons.
All of your reads are based on who took part in the BP strategy or whether or not they were on NM before he claimed.
NM had like 0 content before he claimed so anyone voting him was pretty much pressuring him to produce some. I don't see this as AI at all. Same thing with the BP strategy. Let's not get back into that discussion though.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
You're scumreading Kawl for bad reasons.
You're townreading Cece for bad reasons.
All of your reads are based on who took part in the BP strategy or whether or not they were on NM before he claimed.
Yes my reads are based on wagons and flips, aka hard data.
Riddle me this: Why would scum me so drastically whittle down my options this way?
Neither player voting NM before he claimed had much reason to. That's not hard data. Willingness to take part in the BP strategy is also not hard data.
Reasons for scum you limiting your options: so you can single out Kawl and hard-tunnel him to death. Then tomorrow you can be like: oh shit what do I do now? I have to reassess my townreads. While today you can give behind those townreads to buddy up the "towny players".
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #467 (isolation #41) » Fri May 19, 2017 3:39 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
Okay. Maybe I'm confused about the meaning of hard data as a non-native speaker. I considered hard data to be really big argument you were using as your case. I don't feel you have those.
I'm not ignoring the other points. I'm just focusing on the basis of your reads list, which is who was voting NM before the claim and who was taking part in the BP strategy.
The fact that you're handwaiving the reasons for your behavior as scum makes my scumread on you even stronger.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #481 (isolation #42) » Fri May 19, 2017 5:21 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 468, Papa Zito wrote:To me at least hard data are basically objective facts. Soft data would be stuff like behavioral patterns or anything else that requires interpretation.
I'm insulted because that's incredibly subpar play. Scum need options, limiting myself as scum is stupid. If my "hard tunnel" (note - this conversation means that point is moot) fails and I don't get that lynch then I'm stuck. Or if Kawl suddenly turns on the gas and reveals himself to be the best mafia player ever then I can't NK him.
Getting back to the original topic - is there not anything more concrete to your case than the fact you dislike my reads? Is there not any other player who you view as worse for any reason? If I were lynched today and flipped town what would you do next?
Suggesting scum wouldn't play a certain way is shortsighted. Because if that were true, every scum would attempt to play like that. If scum can't get the mislynch they want, that's even better. They won't be accountable for it.
It's not the fact that I dislike your reads, it's the fact that I think your reads are forced/based on bad logic. If you would flip town, I would look into Kawl, your suspect, a little more. To me, he is still a null read. Another slot I want to see more from is Cero, who hasn't posted since the day started.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
People trying to push Zito are basically just patting each other on the back and not saying anything that actually indicates he's scum. Also I like how he was making an effort to gamesolve before he had to start defending himself against arguments with no merit.
I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.
So yeah, Zito is the mislynch target for scum right now, because they'd expect him to be more clued in than the other players on scumhunting and there's not going to be a better opportunity to get him lynched than today, when a couple of people had lingering suspicions on him.
How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.
If you're townreading Kawl too, that means you disagree with his only scumread too.
This looks like you're whiteknighting Zito to look good when he flips town.
How is Zito a mislynch target after there were already cases on Cece and Kawl?
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #504 (isolation #49) » Fri May 19, 2017 7:12 pm
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 498, Tchill13 wrote:Went back and re-read a few things. After a few thoughts I'm thinking Arnold or Cece should be lynched today. I'm just not sure which one. I'd prefer that jj and Zito give their reads on which of the 2 they think is scum. Arnold hammered NM and specifically stated that he doesn't think hammering there would give town cred. Specifically stating that he shouldn't get town cred stands out to me. I really, really like jj's case against Cece.
I only made that comment because someone else brought it up.
In post 502, Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote:
How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.
If you're townreading Kawl too, that means you disagree with his only scumread too.
This looks like you're whiteknighting Zito to look good when he flips town.
How is Zito a mislynch target after there were already cases on Cece and Kawl?
VOTE: Arnold Schwarzenegger
First up, it doesn't matter that I disagree with the way he's doing it. It's the fact that he is doing it and he is sincere about it that makes it AI.
Next up, if you want to accuse me of being scum then say it rather than trying to get me to back off of Zito.
Finally, there were no cases on Cece and Kawl at the start of the day.
But yeah, the second point you made there reeks of scum. You're trying to get me to back off. If you made it sincerely you wouldn't be continuing to vote Zito. Oh, and the whole "when he flips town" bit is amusing. Your narrative has completely changed to fit a new circumstance.
That just makes no sense at all to me. Scum is always trying to look like they're scumhunting. So if they're doing it with bad reasoning, that's scummy to me. I don't see how bad reasoning makes you townread anyone.
I'm not sure about my reads anymore after your terrible reasoning to townread Zito. I considered unvoting, but I didn't because I wanted to see Zito's reaction first.
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Post #516 (isolation #51) » Sat May 20, 2017 8:36 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 513, jjh927 wrote:I like the fact that you've pushed there but don't really like your push. You're still a scumlean, Cece, and I think you're wrong, but you're not my main scumread any more so you've got that going for you. I won't say anything else so Zito can actually respond.
You like the fact that Cece pushed, but you don't like the push? Isn't that exactly why you were townreading Zito?
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #520 (isolation #52) » Sat May 20, 2017 6:59 pm
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 517, jjh927 wrote:I can disagree with someone's logic and like the overall tone and purpose the act of sharing it conveys. Town can make bad pushes. So can scum. It's just scum do them knowing that they're false, whereas town believe them to be true.
And the first two votes were not on Kawl and Cece. That's just the first votecount. Using that as evidence means your logic is based off of post-hoc justifications that disregard something you experienced first-hand, because you responded to the actual first posts and votes of today. This is logic I can objectively disprove which has scum methodology behind it. Town don't need to rationalise their argument after they've made it, because they make their arguments with true conviction behind them rather than having to insert it afterwards. You did. Therefore you are scum.
So what's different between liking Zito's bad push and liking Cece's bad push? You're townreading Zito for one and sucmreading Cece for the other. You conveniently didn't answer that.
Secondly, you said scum would push Zito as a mislynch. The first votes of the day were in fact on Zito, made by you and Tchill. Then cases were made on Cece and Kawl. So unless you're claiming scum here, why would scum push a Zito lynch after that when 2 perfect wagons were already there? I was incorrect about the actual facts there, but my point still stands.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
In post 514, Tchill13 wrote:I'd also like to see Zito's response to jj voting Arnold. Like I said Cece and Arnold are my 2 scum leans at this point.
His only play today has been on me so that makes me a bit biased. I get the point though. Arnie is suddenly arguing that I'm a mislynch when his vote is sitting on me. He's not a townread but I don't think there's more evidence to point towards him then Kawl or perhaps Cece.
I just get really bad feelings about jj suddenly hard defending you. How do you read this?
UNVOTE:
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #524 (isolation #54) » Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 522, jjh927 wrote:I guess I haven't made clear that I like the tone and the conviction behind Cece's push? You might note that Cece went down from scumread to scumlean after she made it? Also, this idea that I'm scumreading Cece for the push is total bullshit, because I was scumreading her for this pile of things in a case I made and a couple of reactions. Don't put words in my mouth. Don't argue things that never happened. You've argued a number of things that never happened btw.
I have already explained why scum would go for a Zito mislynch now. This was the best opportunity they were going to get to get to make Zito the mislynch. And no, I'm not townreading him just for the case. Don't spin this into a one-issue thing when there's a number of reasons I could give for why Zito is town.
You got really bad feelings about me suddenly because I'm capable of casing you, am voting you, and scumread you. You are scum. Where is the scum motivation in me defending Zito?
you're still not answering my question. It's like talking to a wall. I'll ask you one more time.
you about why you townread Zito:
In post 494, jjh927 wrote:I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.
You about Cece:
In post 513, jjh927 wrote:I like the fact that you've pushed there but don't really like your push. You're still a scumlean, Cece, and I think you're wrong, but you're not my main scumread any more so you've got that going for you. I won't say anything else so Zito can actually respond.
To me, that looks the same. Why are you not townreading Cece for this. It's just a simple question.
I'm not going into the other stuff again because we obviously don't agree on that part. I've given my arguments, you've given yours. You're asking me things I already answered. This argument is allowing everybody else to hide in the background.
I want to scumread you for being so frustrating to talk to. But my head says you're town. I can't see scum coming at me like this without leaving an opening to get off the wagon.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #529 (isolation #56) » Sun May 21, 2017 8:08 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 527, Tchill13 wrote:I don't mean to be putting words into jj's mouth but from MY point of view it seems that jj is judging these pushes based on their motivation behind the push rather than the push itself. If I'm wrong I'd like to know because that's how I'm viewing it.
It's usually not a good idea to answer posts directed at someone else. #advice
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
You're scumreading Kawl for bad reasons.
You're townreading Cece for bad reasons.
All of your reads are based on who took part in the BP strategy or whether or not they were on NM before he claimed.
NM had like 0 content before he claimed so anyone voting him was pretty much pressuring him to produce some. I don't see this as AI at all. Same thing with the BP strategy. Let's not get back into that discussion though.
This was the start of my reasoning. Feel free to continue reading from that point on.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #548 (isolation #58) » Mon May 22, 2017 6:34 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 531, Cero68 wrote:The problem I have with this reasoning was that he was just giving his analysis from the lynch and night kill right? Wasn't that just a breakdown of what he felt the data was saying. Now regardless of how he interpreted the data, what has he done since then to help tilt your vote towards him. The vote data only gets you so far, what has he said from that point onward that makes him a lock for you?
I didn't say he was a lock. He's just most likely to be scum from my pov.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016
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Post #549 (isolation #59) » Mon May 22, 2017 6:38 am
Postby Arnold Schwarzenegger »
In post 533, jjh927 wrote:Tchill is correct. Arnold, I have no clue how you still fail to understand when I've repeated it to you.
Let's make this as clear as it can possibly be.
I scumread Cece BEFORE she made her push, yes? You still following? Okay, so after she made the push, that went down to a scumlean. That tends to imply that I started to consider her more as town and less as scum, just she's not out of the water yet. As I'm fairly sure you're aware, there are a number of other reasons for my reads on Cece and Zito, and there is no way anyone should have reads based on single posts at this point in the game.
You were also scumreading Zito before, so your read progression still makes no sense to me. I still fail to see how you somehow have a massive townread on Zito after voting him right out of the gates on day 2.
Whatever... I don't think I can explain it any better than this. I'm still confused.
In memory of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Radja's character pick in Survivor: 2016