Newbie 1795 | Summer | Endgame

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Hiya!

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

jj is a town lean for me. Seems to be actively trying to sort people and the fact that he pressured the IC immediately looks good to me. I don't think his case is very good though.

Fykus also leans town to me. He made a case on jj, who was probably the most vocal player out here. I think the wagon argument is a stretch, but I don't think scum would be ballsy enough to try and push that argument.

Everyone else is shades of null so far.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Zito is okay. Not doing anything that makes me question him. Haven't really seen anything that makes me townread him either.

Tchill, why did you vote Fykus?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'm tempted to L-1 you but I suppose I shouldn't, just in case scum decide to pull a fast one.

VOTE: Jax Teller

Because I hated jax by the end of that show.

The way Fykus mentions he'd like to put him at L-1 here then doesn't. Easy attempt for town cred but jj would have more than likely Unvoted himself. Fykus then blows this off a few posts later. Zito and jj get into a discussion and Fykus states jj won... Seems "convenient" to me that jj lost his discussion with Zito after jj was the one who brought up Fykus' L-1 comment. I personally don't think either side "won" that discussion. Then Fykus' post on 132 seems to be grasping at straws a little. It's also very well put together and planned out which makes me see Fykus' argument as "I'm scum defending myself trying to throw the attention on jj"

tbh I would also not put anyone at L-1 in a newbie game so early in the game. I don't see it as an attempt for town cred at all. Just playing safe.
How would you think town should have reacted to the pressure Fykus was on?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'm actually an alt. Do I win a prize?

NM, what do you think about Fykus? Town/Scum?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'm actually an alt. Do I win a prize?

NM, what do you think about Fykus? Town/Scum?

I just saw this on reddit: https://www.wired.com/2009/10/schwarzenegger/

my adblocker kept me from reading that

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'm tempted to L-1 you but I suppose I shouldn't, just in case scum decide to pull a fast one.

VOTE: Jax Teller

Because I hated jax by the end of that show.

The way Fykus mentions he'd like to put him at L-1 here then doesn't. Easy attempt for town cred but jj would have more than likely Unvoted himself. Fykus then blows this off a few posts later. Zito and jj get into a discussion and Fykus states jj won... Seems "convenient" to me that jj lost his discussion with Zito after jj was the one who brought up Fykus' L-1 comment. I personally don't think either side "won" that discussion. Then Fykus' post on 132 seems to be grasping at straws a little. It's also very well put together and planned out which makes me see Fykus' argument as "I'm scum defending myself trying to throw the attention on jj"

tbh I would also not put anyone at L-1 in a newbie game so early in the game. I don't see it as an attempt for town cred at all. Just playing safe.
How would you think town should have reacted to the pressure Fykus was on?

Tchill, would you mind answering my question about Fykus?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I mean Fykus at the time had 2 votes? To me there's not a real threat of a wagon until he's at least L-2 so I would have liked to have seen him get there. I think his comment is getting a little less attention than it should because of how early in rvs it is. I'm fine with you saying he's null right now but I don't see how you could town lean Fykus at this moment.

you're dodging the question here.

You said earlier:

Then Fykus' post on 132 seems to be grasping at straws a little. It's also very well put together and planned out which makes me see Fykus' argument as "I'm scum defending myself trying to throw the attention on jj"

I'm failing to see how you're seeing Fykus's argument as scum defending and throwing attention on someone else. Wouldn't town attempt to do the same thing by trying to scumhunt?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Why is fykus pushing jj though? The only guy that has brought up the L-1 comment other than me. Then fykus consistently pushes jj. Much easier cases are to be made against Not_mafia and maybe even cero right now rather than making a case against jj. Wouldn't scum try to do what town would be doing anyway?

they would. But you said it yourself, there are much easier cases to be made. I think scum usually try and push the low-hanging fruit.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I didn't sign up to play here to play the mathematically best strategy. I want to play here to work on my scum hunting.

I agree with this tbh. I don't like gamebreaking strategies. Not that it matters, as NM claimed BP.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I reckon we should probs wait to see if he's shitposting before anyone else confirms/unconfirms.

Also, NM, why claim now? I thought we'd been saying that we'd not do it for a while, if we did.

Vote is staying on til NM replies.

why would you want to keep voting a claimed BP?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I didn't sign up to play here to play the mathematically best strategy. I want to play here to work on my scum hunting.

I agree with this tbh. I don't like gamebreaking strategies. Not that it matters, as NM claimed BP.

its hardly gamebreaking. it only bumps up the win % of games a couple percent.

setup-breaking then.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I reckon we should probs wait to see if he's shitposting before anyone else confirms/unconfirms.

Also, NM, why claim now? I thought we'd been saying that we'd not do it for a while, if we did.

Vote is staying on til NM replies.

why would you want to keep voting a claimed BP?

cause it could be that NM is just shitposting, or possibly fake claiming. we wont know until they come back and post.

nobody counterclaimed, why do you think he might be fake claiming?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

NM usually doesn't have much presence as far as I know.

Is this BP/not BP thing happening in every game? Cause if it is, that makes newbie games amazingly boring

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

So if someone claims BP can we take turns claiming jail keeper then tracker to make sure he's telling the truth? I'm not a fan of his game up until this point.

The dude is confirmed town unless someone counterclaims. The way you're trying to out other PRs is extremely antitown.

I'd vote you but I'm not sure just how new you are.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

So if someone claims BP can we take turns claiming jail keeper then tracker to make sure he's telling the truth? I'm not a fan of his game up until this point.

I'm counterclaiming.

Dude. This was a terrible way to counterclaim.

Why didn't you say so immediately?

NM is getting lynched today. But I agree we wait for Zito to share his thoughts.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I've just laid out for you why he would and you're willfully ignoring it because people are conditioned to just automatically side the CCer, which is exactly the reaction Tchill wants.

Let me turn it around, if I'm scum, why would I claim?

Because you were under pressure and probably were going to have to claim anyway.

You took a gamble and it didn't work.

I don't see a newbie counterclaiming as scum here.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

After reading everything I'm just going to hammer. There's no point in dragging this. Zito is on VLA anyway

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Did I miss Fykus softing somewhere? Cause that kill makes no sense at all.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I am the one shot bulletproof

is this a real claim or are you just shitposting?

I could see this as a possible reason maybe? He immediately doubted the claim, which is an indication he knew it couldn't be true.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

claiming BP doesn't make any sense to me though. If he had been CC-ed by the actual BP, he would have been lynched and they would have had no idea who the JK was.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

This is why I'm currently down for lynching the IC.

PEdit: Not Mafia's actions clearly make no sense whatsoever, as we must be in setup 2, meaning scum knew BP was not a safeclaim. I don't think it's worth discussing how bad claiming BP there was.

On the other hand, it seems to have netted scum both PRs, but we got a day 1 scum lynch so it's still very much worth imo.

Why are you looking at the IC specifically?
And why are you so sure we are in setup 2? BP was never a safeclaim, regardless of scum having a roleblocker or not.

I'm amazed they still killed Fykus though. That indicates to me that there is probably no RB, because Fykus wasn't conftown at that point. If they had an RB, they could roleblock Fykus until the game was over and got rid of conftown by killing Tchill.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

oh yeah, good point. So they roleblocked Tchill because if they were wrong about Fykus, Tchill would have gotten a result. Gotcha.

That's a fair point. I'd like to hear what Zito has to say about this.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

^agreed. We were waiting for Zito to come in, until I decided we had seen enough

Pedit: yeah, analyzing that wagon is pointless.

Pedit 2: I don't think hammering confscum will pocket you any towncred though.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Those are pretty terrible reasons to scumread kawl and me tbh. Good thing your conftown.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Cece's iso is kinda smelly if I'm honest

what's smelly about it?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Do you want me to case? I want to make myself some burritos, but I could probably case either before or after

Well if there's anything weird about it, I'd like to hear it. Cece hasn't been on my radar.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Zito, your whole reads list seems to be based on who was on NM before he claimed and who was participating in the BP strategy.
How was Cece's case "pretty good" and how does it make him "very likely town"?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Thanks jj, I think you make a pretty good point about #224, although I'm not sure scum would coach their partner into saying they were shitposting.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Zito, your whole reads list seems to be based on who was on NM before he claimed and who was participating in the BP strategy.
How was Cece's case "pretty good" and how does it make him "very likely town"?

I think people who voted a scumslot prior to the claim are more likely to be town than not, yes. There was really no reason to bus at that point and put attention on a partner who was essentially lurking, especially when there were other soft targets and even more espeicallyer when the game had very little movement. I also think the people who were pushing the strategy are more likely town as well because that strategy is clearly in the town's best interests.

I have to disagree with you there. I think bussing NM for not providing any content is a great way to distance yourself early. But I can see why you would think that.
The BP strategy is null for me. I wasn't familiar with it before this game and I'd rather not take part in it ever again. It takes all the fun out of the matrix. So I fully understand kawl not wanting to take part.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I completely agree with you on it taking some of the fun out of the game and I really would like to see the setup fixed so it's no longer a factor. That said, I have a wincon to play to and that strat helps me achieve it.

true, I get that. I just think it's a bit cheap to scumread kawl for not wanting to participate.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I completely agree with you on it taking some of the fun out of the game and I really would like to see the setup fixed so it's no longer a factor. That said, I have a wincon to play to and that strat helps me achieve it.

Earlier I told kawl I understood where he's coming from but the BP strategy is the way to play if you want to win. So I think the fact that you'd argue against a strategy that's known for helping town win is questionable.

I've actually won games as town without the BP strategy. Surprising isn't it?

I play games to have fun in the first place, winning is my secondary object. I will try to win, but not at the cost of ruining (part of) the fun.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Anyway, the discussion about using or not using the BP strategy probably has its place outside of this game.

I just don't think it's AI to not want to participate.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I just don't think it's AI to not want to participate.

I think tchill explained it better than I have. Regardless, I made a handful of other points against him.

no objection to that. I just think it's odd you used that as the first argument against him.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

no objection to that. I just think it's odd you used that as the first argument against him.

Odd how? What does the order have to do with anything?

I assume you always start with your biggest reasons to scumread someone when you put out a readslist like that.

I also think as the IC you should know better than to scumread someone for something like that.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I assume you always start with your biggest reasons to scumread someone when you put out a readslist like that.

I also think as the IC you should know better than to scumread someone for something like that.

For your first - that's probably a bad assumption. Assumptions lose games. Don't make assumptions. Regarding your second, you have absolutely no idea how utterly sick I am of reading that sentiment.

Assumptions happen all the time. The key is to figure out if what you're assuming is correct.
I'm sure you've heard the IC thing 100 times before. It's just a fact people expect more from an IC than from any of the other players.
Have you taken part in the BP strategy before?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Fair enough. I'm really struggling with the fact that you think it's scummy not to want to participate.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

So I think the fact that you'd argue against a strategy that's known for helping town win is questionable.

TChill explained it concisely and well here. Why is this hard to understand?

I think it's not too hard to see past that and I've explained why.

I'll just drop the argument. I don't think we're going to agree on it.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

VOTE: Papa Zito

Liking Cece for questioning Zito's townread on her. I was in between on those 2, but I think Zito needs rope here.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Can you put together some reasoning why plz

You're scumreading Kawl for bad reasons.
You're townreading Cece for bad reasons.

All of your reads are based on who took part in the BP strategy or whether or not they were on NM before he claimed.

NM had like 0 content before he claimed so anyone voting him was pretty much pressuring him to produce some. I don't see this as AI at all. Same thing with the BP strategy. Let's not get back into that discussion though.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Can you put together some reasoning why plz

You're scumreading Kawl for bad reasons.
You're townreading Cece for bad reasons.

All of your reads are based on who took part in the BP strategy or whether or not they were on NM before he claimed.

Yes my reads are based on wagons and flips, aka hard data.

Riddle me this: Why would scum me so drastically whittle down my options this way?

Neither player voting NM before he claimed had much reason to. That's not hard data. Willingness to take part in the BP strategy is also not hard data.

Reasons for scum you limiting your options: so you can single out Kawl and hard-tunnel him to death. Then tomorrow you can be like: oh shit what do I do now? I have to reassess my townreads. While today you can give behind those townreads to buddy up the "towny players".

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Okay. Maybe I'm confused about the meaning of hard data as a non-native speaker. I considered hard data to be really big argument you were using as your case. I don't feel you have those.

I'm not ignoring the other points. I'm just focusing on the basis of your reads list, which is who was voting NM before the claim and who was taking part in the BP strategy.

The fact that you're handwaiving the reasons for your behavior as scum makes my scumread on you even stronger.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

To me at least hard data are basically objective facts. Soft data would be stuff like behavioral patterns or anything else that requires interpretation.

I'm insulted because that's incredibly subpar play. Scum need options, limiting myself as scum is stupid. If my "hard tunnel" (note - this conversation means that point is moot) fails and I don't get that lynch then I'm stuck. Or if Kawl suddenly turns on the gas and reveals himself to be the best mafia player ever then I can't NK him.


Getting back to the original topic - is there not anything more concrete to your case than the fact you dislike my reads? Is there not any other player who you view as worse for any reason? If I were lynched today and flipped town what would you do next?

Suggesting scum wouldn't play a certain way is shortsighted. Because if that were true, every scum would attempt to play like that. If scum can't get the mislynch they want, that's even better. They won't be accountable for it.

It's not the fact that I dislike your reads, it's the fact that I think your reads are forced/based on bad logic. If you would flip town, I would look into Kawl, your suspect, a little more. To me, he is still a null read. Another slot I want to see more from is Cero, who hasn't posted since the day started.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

jj, I'd like to hear your read on Cece and Zito.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Looking forward to it. Don't be afraid to post your opinions, I get the feeling you're holding back a little.

P-edit: That's okay, glad to hear your opinion too!

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

jj, I'd like to hear your read on Cece and Zito.

I cased Cece and have a vote on her. Guess.

Zito is town.


Why did you ask me about Cece?

Allow me to rephrase, how do you feel about Cece's recent posts?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Zito is town.

also when did this happen?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Arnold why do you feel that Zito is more scummy than Cece? Jj makes good points in his case against Cece.

I think Cece's defense is pretty good and I liked how she questioned Zito's townread on her.
What do you think is so good about the case?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Scum is either Cece and Arnold.

People trying to push Zito are basically just patting each other on the back and not saying anything that actually indicates he's scum. Also I like how he was making an effort to gamesolve before he had to start defending himself against arguments with no merit.

I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.


So yeah, Zito is the mislynch target for scum right now, because they'd expect him to be more clued in than the other players on scumhunting and there's not going to be a better opportunity to get him lynched than today, when a couple of people had lingering suspicions on him.

How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.
If you're townreading Kawl too, that means you disagree with his only scumread too.

This looks like you're whiteknighting Zito to look good when he flips town.

How is Zito a mislynch target after there were already cases on Cece and Kawl?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Went back and re-read a few things. After a few thoughts I'm thinking Arnold or Cece should be lynched today. I'm just not sure which one. I'd prefer that jj and Zito give their reads on which of the 2 they think is scum. Arnold hammered NM and specifically stated that he doesn't think hammering there would give town cred. Specifically stating that he shouldn't get town cred stands out to me. I really, really like jj's case against Cece.

I only made that comment because someone else brought it up.

Tbh if I'm scum I hammer there for town cred.

^agreed. We were waiting for Zito to come in, until I decided we had seen enough

Pedit: yeah, analyzing that wagon is pointless.

Pedit 2: I don't think hammering confscum will pocket you any towncred though.

It was you in fact.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.
If you're townreading Kawl too, that means you disagree with his only scumread too.

This looks like you're whiteknighting Zito to look good when he flips town.

How is Zito a mislynch target after there were already cases on Cece and Kawl?

VOTE: Arnold Schwarzenegger

First up, it doesn't matter that I disagree with the way he's doing it. It's the fact that he is doing it and he is sincere about it that makes it AI.

Next up, if you want to accuse me of being scum then say it rather than trying to get me to back off of Zito.

Finally, there were no cases on Cece and Kawl at the start of the day.


But yeah, the second point you made there reeks of scum. You're trying to get me to back off. If you made it sincerely you wouldn't be continuing to vote Zito. Oh, and the whole "when he flips town" bit is amusing. Your narrative has completely changed to fit a new circumstance.

That just makes no sense at all to me. Scum is always trying to look like they're scumhunting. So if they're doing it with bad reasoning, that's scummy to me. I don't see how bad reasoning makes you townread anyone.

I'm not sure about my reads anymore after your terrible reasoning to townread Zito. I considered unvoting, but I didn't because I wanted to see Zito's reaction first.

Vote Count 2.02

Kawl

(1): Papa Zito

Cece

(1): jjh927

Papa Zito

(1): Tchill13

Not Voting

(4): Cece, Cero68, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Kawl

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-31 12:00:00)

The first two votes were on Kawl and Cece. How were there no cases on them at the start of day 2?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I like the fact that you've pushed there but don't really like your push. You're still a scumlean, Cece, and I think you're wrong, but you're not my main scumread any more so you've got that going for you. I won't say anything else so Zito can actually respond.

You like the fact that Cece pushed, but you don't like the push? Isn't that exactly why you were townreading Zito?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I can disagree with someone's logic and like the overall tone and purpose the act of sharing it conveys. Town can make bad pushes. So can scum. It's just scum do them knowing that they're false, whereas town believe them to be true.

And the first two votes were not on Kawl and Cece. That's just the first votecount. Using that as evidence means your logic is based off of post-hoc justifications that disregard something you experienced first-hand, because you responded to the actual first posts and votes of today. This is logic I can objectively disprove which has scum methodology behind it. Town don't need to rationalise their argument after they've made it, because they make their arguments with true conviction behind them rather than having to insert it afterwards. You did. Therefore you are scum.

So what's different between liking Zito's bad push and liking Cece's bad push? You're townreading Zito for one and sucmreading Cece for the other. You conveniently didn't answer that.

Secondly, you said scum would push Zito as a mislynch. The first votes of the day were in fact on Zito, made by you and Tchill. Then cases were made on Cece and Kawl. So unless you're claiming scum here, why would scum push a Zito lynch after that when 2 perfect wagons were already there? I was incorrect about the actual facts there, but my point still stands.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'd also like to see Zito's response to jj voting Arnold. Like I said Cece and Arnold are my 2 scum leans at this point.

His only play today has been on me so that makes me a bit biased. I get the point though. Arnie is suddenly arguing that I'm a mislynch when his vote is sitting on me. He's not a townread but I don't think there's more evidence to point towards him then Kawl or perhaps Cece.

I just get really bad feelings about jj suddenly hard defending you. How do you read this?

UNVOTE:

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I guess I haven't made clear that I like the tone and the conviction behind Cece's push? You might note that Cece went down from scumread to scumlean after she made it? Also, this idea that I'm scumreading Cece for the push is total bullshit, because I was scumreading her for this pile of things in a case I made and a couple of reactions. Don't put words in my mouth. Don't argue things that never happened. You've argued a number of things that never happened btw.

I have already explained why scum would go for a Zito mislynch now. This was the best opportunity they were going to get to get to make Zito the mislynch. And no, I'm not townreading him just for the case. Don't spin this into a one-issue thing when there's a number of reasons I could give for why Zito is town.



You got really bad feelings about me suddenly because I'm capable of casing you, am voting you, and scumread you. You are scum. Where is the scum motivation in me defending Zito?

you're still not answering my question. It's like talking to a wall. I'll ask you one more time.

you about why you townread Zito:

I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.

You about Cece:

I like the fact that you've pushed there but don't really like your push. You're still a scumlean, Cece, and I think you're wrong, but you're not my main scumread any more so you've got that going for you. I won't say anything else so Zito can actually respond.

To me, that looks the same. Why are you not townreading Cece for this. It's just a simple question.

I'm not going into the other stuff again because we obviously don't agree on that part. I've given my arguments, you've given yours. You're asking me things I already answered. This argument is allowing everybody else to hide in the background.

I want to scumread you for being so frustrating to talk to. But my head says you're town. I can't see scum coming at me like this without leaving an opening to get off the wagon.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

VOTE: Zito

going back to this.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I don't mean to be putting words into jj's mouth but from MY point of view it seems that jj is judging these pushes based on their motivation behind the push rather than the push itself. If I'm wrong I'd like to know because that's how I'm viewing it.

It's usually not a good idea to answer posts directed at someone else. #advice

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Can you put together some reasoning why plz

You're scumreading Kawl for bad reasons.
You're townreading Cece for bad reasons.

All of your reads are based on who took part in the BP strategy or whether or not they were on NM before he claimed.

NM had like 0 content before he claimed so anyone voting him was pretty much pressuring him to produce some. I don't see this as AI at all. Same thing with the BP strategy. Let's not get back into that discussion though.

This was the start of my reasoning. Feel free to continue reading from that point on.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

The problem I have with this reasoning was that he was just giving his analysis from the lynch and night kill right? Wasn't that just a breakdown of what he felt the data was saying. Now regardless of how he interpreted the data, what has he done since then to help tilt your vote towards him. The vote data only gets you so far, what has he said from that point onward that makes him a lock for you?

I didn't say he was a lock. He's just most likely to be scum from my pov.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Tchill is correct. Arnold, I have no clue how you still fail to understand when I've repeated it to you.

Let's make this as clear as it can possibly be.

I scumread Cece BEFORE she made her push, yes? You still following? Okay, so after she made the push, that went down to a scumlean. That tends to imply that I started to consider her more as town and less as scum, just she's not out of the water yet. As I'm fairly sure you're aware, there are a number of other reasons for my reads on Cece and Zito, and there is no way anyone should have reads based on single posts at this point in the game.

You were also scumreading Zito before, so your read progression still makes no sense to me. I still fail to see how you somehow have a massive townread on Zito after voting him right out of the gates on day 2.

Whatever... I don't think I can explain it any better than this. I'm still confused.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Oh yeah, and Tchill, I don't know if you also have this misconception that I'm scumreading Cece for her push that Arnold seems to have. But I'm not. Both Zito and Cece's pushes came off as towny to me.

Again, let me clarify that the differences in the reads there is because Cece has done a bunch of other scummy stuff whereas I don't think Zito has. Also the pushes on Zito rn suck.

okay, now we're finally getting somewhere. You were on Zito for quite some time on day 1 though. So saying he didn't do anything scummy doesn't really make sense to me.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

We know there's just 1 scum in the game at this point so I'm not sure why defending someo would alarm you.

If this was directed at me: scum defend town all the time to get town credit when they flip town.

So if someone claims BP can we take turns claiming jail keeper then tracker to make sure he's telling the truth? I'm not a fan of his game up until this point.

The dude is confirmed town unless someone counterclaims. The way you're trying to out other PRs is extremely antitown.

I'd vote you but I'm not sure just how new you are.

I understand at this point in the game Arnold makes a good point but I suggested that knowing nobody would claim jail keeper or tracker and I didn't want to out myself this early... Anyways Arnold's attempt here to shift the vote early is worth pointing out in my opinion.

I still stand by that post. He was confirmed town unless someone counterclaimed. Why is this an issue to you?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Because if you're scum you saw an opportunity to shift the vote and you showed that you wanted to about as early as you could. The only reason you don't vote me right there is if NM flips scum and you're on me not NM.

Do you think as scum I would defend NM in that spot, knowing 100% he was going to get counterclaimed?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

The dude is confirmed town unless someone counterclaims. The way you're trying to out other PRs is extremely antitown.

Do you think as scum I would defend NM in that spot, knowing 100% he was going to get counterclaimed?

Arnold can you talk about these quotes plz.

what's there to talk about? I thought NM was the actual BP and Tchill was fishing for other roles.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I have nothing more to add.

Please reconsider my thoughts after my flip.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

When the entire playerlist scumreads you and disagrees with you, I don't really see the point in continuing to push what I believe in.

I think flipping me will help sort this game. There's plenty of information to gain as I gave this game all I had.

What do you want to talk about?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I don't think it's fair you call me lazy though. This is exactly what I mean when I say there's no point in fighting this. There's a lot of confbias going on.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Uuh, let's start off with how this clearly isn't the entire playlist scumreading you, and I thought a couple of people agreed with you?

Who is scum if Zito is not scum?

I haven't seen anyone agreeing with me.

Probably Kawl. He supports my wagon but doesn't hammer me. He also doesn't really give a reason why he supports it, other than "I rub him the wrong way"

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Giving up and saying "Oh well, lynch me then and then reconsider the things I've said" IS lazy.

I've been arguing with you for days now. We don't share the same views. I don't see the point in trying again

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I have been an active part of this game since I replaced in. If nobody hammers, I will continue do to so.

I have said multiple times why I think Zito is scum. It hasn't changed. Although I'm starting to doubt that read now.

I'm fairly confident the game ends after we lynch Zito/Kawl

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

If you want me to go over stuff with you again, I will. I can't do that right now though. Phone posting is hard enough as it is.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

You have been a part of this game. I believe activity is defined by scumhunting and you've done little of that, from my perspective. You have, however, latched on to the occasional little thing and tried to get everyone to talk about said little thing and your unrelenting opinions about it.

I yet again disagree.
It's a fact I didn't have any solid scumreads on day 1. I think Ive done plenty of it on day 2

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

You want my case in Zito again then?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

NM was obviously taking someone down with him because he knew he was getting pushed to claim. He had a shot of nobody CCing him. Any other claim he didn't.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'm not sure I see a problem with Kawls post. Maybe he didn't realize that.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

That's a fair point to make. I didn't catch that.

You think it's a scumslip?

As I said before I'm not native English so not everything is as clear to me as it may be to others, so yeah I tend to misunderstand some things.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Not so much a scumslip, but it's something I'm highly conscious of looking for that may be indicative of scum. Call it a generic scumtell. For whatever reason, I believe there is generally an inclination for scum to do that kind of thing.


And btw, I've been re-sorting primarily because another game I was in ended and of course post-game brings a lot of thinking about it. The one lynch I was wrong about feels eerily similar to yours.

Conftown: Tchill
Townreads: Zito, Cero
Townleans: Cece
Nulls: Arnold
Scumleans: Kawl

is where I am after moving you up a little due to the resorting and a little more due to this conversation.

Okay. Thanks for taking the time to hear me out at least. I felt pretty cornered and didn't see a way out. I'll keep producing content until I'm dead.

Can you link me to that game?

I don't really follow you on the scumtell, especially in a newbie game.

My reads

Town: Tchill, Cece, jj
Lean town: -
Null: Cero
Lean Scum: Kawl, Zito
Scum: -

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

What lynch are you talking about when you compare it to me?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'll try and look into it when I get the chance.

I notice you're now townreading Cece. I missed those reasons I think?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Arnold and jj what do you think of the Zito argument kowl just pointed out? I agree with jj it makes a good case for scum Zito.

I thought I pointed that out before but I can't find it. So yeah, I was aware it was a bad post and one of the reasons I'm scumreading Zito.

Sorry, I'm having a pretty terrible day so my input today will be limited.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I only have a problem with it because of the reason Fykus voted for Kawl. But I think we're past that point.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Well atleast we've netted 2 potential scums from this already.

Ones possibly a fake claim and the other refuses to participate in a pro-town strategy "because they want to scum hunt"

this seems pretty clear

I didn't remember him following up on that naked vote.
okay, you win this round.
VOTE: Kawl

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'm fairly confident the game ends after we lynch Zito/Kawl

I keep flip flopping between the two.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

VOTE: Zito

POE. I think everybody else is town.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Actually we can probably assume Cece is town because scum made a nightkill and she is somewhat absent.

what makes you say that?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Can we not use PoE unless you have actual good reasons for believing that everyone else is town.

For me it was Kawl or Zito. Kawl flipped town so why shouldn't I vote Zito out of the gates?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Thing about you Arnold is that you haven't really had any scumreads throughout the game - the closest you come to is a couple of scum leans yesterday (Kawl and Zito) - you have a total of five votes in the whole game, and like now you've ended up with PoE rather than any active scumreads. What's the point of this? Why do you think you find it so difficult to read people as scum? Cause from where I'm standing, if you are scum, then this seems motivated by not pissing anyone off.

That said I'm still uncertain of Zito's middle-end of day 2, but withholding judgement til I get a better read on arnold.

A scum lean is still a scumread for me. It just means I'm not 100% convinced about the read.

Zito and Kawl were my scumreads.

If you think Ive been trying to not piss anyone off, then you should reread the game.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

A scum lean is still a scumread for me. It just means I'm not 100% convinced about the read.

Zito and Kawl were my scumreads.

My reads

Town: Tchill, Cece, jj
Lean town: -
Null: Cero
Lean Scum: Kawl, Zito
Scum: -

Ok so you

were

100% town on me and jj? To the point of being as certain of us as you were of the confirmed cop?

Or, you weren't 100% certain but you have different standards for townreads and scumreads?

Either way, you're privileging the former.

Yes you guys are 100% town for me. I'm not considering either of you as possible scum, and probably won't for the rest of the game unless something extreme happens.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

o.o ok. I do find the absolute certainty a bit weird but.

Would you say you're usually more confident on town reads than scum reads?

for PoE I'm presuming that you read Cero as townleaning as jj and I, or at least close. did a quick iso (ctrl f so might have missed something) and the last time you mentioned him he was null (in the post quoted above). What changed? Why do you have a town read on him now - one strong enough to do PoE when you're not entirely sure of Zito being scum?

Check it out for yourself. I have 2 recently finished games:

Reads game 1
Reads game 2

green = town
yellow = lean town
white = null
orange = lean scum
red = scum

Cero is still null for me. We have 2 lynches left, there's 2 townreads and 2 non-townreads. So POE is exactly what I have to do. Zito is a scumread so he can go first. If I'm wrong again, which I think is unlikely, it'll be Cero.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

NB I'm assuming you're not certain of Zito as scum because you're doing a PoE and not just saying like "he's scum! because reasons x, y, and z!"

that is, from your posts I'd assume that your reads on Cero and Zito would be closer together than you're saying today, and not close enough to justify PoE.

My reasons for scumreading Zito are the same as they were on day 2.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

V/LA until tomorrow

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Back! Too tired to give this proper attention, I'll get back to this tomorrow. There is one thing that stuck out for me and I just HAVE to point it out.

VOTE: Cero68

After the reread I feel this is correct.

This makes no sense to me at all. Zito has been townreading Cero for as long as I can remember and now he's suddenly scum for no reasons mentioned.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

okay I read through it and BlackVoid is most likely town. Those were some good posts.

Glad someone finally agrees with me on that reads list from Zito being terrible.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'm not sure what else to add really. My mind has been made up a long time ago.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'd hammer if I could

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Well shit. I really thought the game would end after lynching Zito.
I'm going to reread you both to make sure I didn't miss anything.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Ah no! Oh dear sorry, stupid arse week. Let's look at the last..two pages? Ok well guess I can't complain tis also my fault.

Ok have read thru again.
VOTE: NotMafia

this is not just a lurking/post more prod, a don't think it would do much b would be hypocritical, but seriously all the way those one-liners are going doesn't advance the game, at most it's just questions that he don't seem to follow up on, and I don't see a single honest scumhunting effort even implied in his posts.

It *might* just be a result of not lurking much, but my gut also says that.. I dunno, there's something there. His stuff just also feels contrived, and have difficulty seeing a town mindset behind it. For instance post 133 (I don't know how to link) is v much jumping on the bandwagon - no not even that, cause it's expressing lack of knowledge. Does he even have opinions?

Two replacements - want to see more, but liking Kal so far. jj still town, Fykus/Zito ehhh, Cero more town than before but that might be cause I find NM scummier.

This post is what led NM to claim. Cece expresses a pretty strong scumread here.

Hey Everyone,

Finished reading the last couple of days of post. And here are some of my thoughts:

I'm a little wary of tchill13 since it seems to me from his post that he keeps changing his vote whenever there is a new argument presented for one of the other players. This only makes me suspicious because it seems that he might be trying to gain trust in jumping in bandwagons, but that only makes me suspicious of his actions.

On that note, I feel like Not_Mafia's last post are really strange. I don't see what's the problem with having an alt account since from what I read on the wiki it's encourage a bit for players to create one if it's not used in shifty ways so why keep calling it out. Also on that note who cares since we are still playing the game and it doesn't affect the game state besides trying shift peoples perceptions of how that person will play. There might be a reason for these kinds of post especially if he's an SE and I would hope he would have developed more as a player due to his experience. Papa Zito posted that he has his own play style and Not_Mafia might be doing something similar, but his actions with Cece makes me think he's scum. So...

VOTE: Not_Mafia

That said I still don't understand why you didn't join jj instead of just flat unvoting. If you're attempting to pressure lurkers into posting why not help him with someone who has checked in vs leaving your vote completely off?

Also to answer Papa Zito's question on this post, I'm not completely sure what I get from you. Of course I'm not thrilled with getting immediately voted by you right away, but I feel like your trying to get the ball rolling and are analyzing reactions and responses from others. I can't really say you lean scum since the only real thing you've done is voted for me and watched people from there. Point is that it's early and none of your actions actually justify a vote at this stage.

This is Cero's vote(second on the wagon) which looks more like distancing to me. Cero's read doesn't appear to be as strong and he gives himself an opportunity to get off the wagon when he says NM might have a reason for them.

I'm really having trouble seeing Cece as scum here Blackvoid. You're going to need one hell of a case if you want to sway me.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Cece your input would be appreciated.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

kinda waiting for Cece to have some input here.
Also wondering if BlackVoid has anything else on Cece because that's not very convincing.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Guess we're getting a replacement

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'll post more when I get back from work tonight.

still waiting for this too

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

NM was confscum on day 1, so I don't really get why you're townreading me for hammering him.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

What did you like about his post?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Guess we're having another replacement...

Blackvoid I get the feeling you're avoiding this game.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Honestly, I don't have an awesome case. I really just thought it was Papa Zito. I have a really hard time seeing your play from a scum perspective and your motivations have been really transparent. Cece is more a POE read for me.

One thing you should keep in mind though is that Not_Mafia very likely would have given his partner a heads up about his gambit so they'd probably be preparing to bus him. It's true that Cece made a strong push and Cero made a weak one. But keep in mind how early in the game it was. Do you think it's reasonable to have such a strong townread on Not_Mafia? Cero was just throwing stuff around, making pushes. Cece's post feels to me like an informed perspective of the game. It's easy to make harder pushes on your partners because you already know that they are scum and tend to notice things that town miss. I also think that in this scenario, scum are more likely to bus so you should be looking at who pushed Not_Mafia unrealistically hard as opposed to who was throwing stuff out.

I'm going to try and think this over but Papa Zito flipping town just blew me away. He was just oozing scum all over the place it wasn't even funny. I really thought he was it and now I need to find the energy to gamesolve all over again.

It's been 8 days since you needed to find energy to gamesolve...

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

I'll post more when I get back from work tonight.

doesn't post

Welcome DoubloonSeven. Looking forward to hearing your perspective on the game.

prod-dodge

I have some free time now so I'll go over the game again. I actually liked Doubloon7's post so I'm having more food for thought at this point.

doesn't post


So yeah. I'm going to have to disagree.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

You promised more content on 2 occasions though. And didn't follow through both times. I think I've seen enough replacements as it is, I just want to hear your thoughts. And your answer to this question.

I'm not sure why you're not trying to convince me it's Cece or whoever is taking the slot right now. Saying "oh shit it wasn't Zito, so it has to be Cece" isn't really convincing you know.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Crazy idea: do something

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

VOTE: blackvoid

I knew it.

RC if you need anything else from me I'd like to hear it. This should be obvious.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Cool. Good luck with that. I've been trying to get content out of him for days bit apparently that gave him weird vibes. He also keeps refusing to answer a simple question

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

What I liked about Doubloon7's 794 was that I felt he was genuinely trying to gamesolve and weigh the evidence pointing to both me and Arnold. I disagree with some of his reasons and he was being a little simplistic by giving towncred to Arnold for the hammer and suspecting us both for pushing Papa Zito but the approach looked a lot like a gamesolving newbie.

The weird vibes I've been getting from Arnold were the same ones I got from Prism in lylo of Mini 1838. I initially came into this lylo incorrectly thinking that Arnold was town just as I went into that lylo thinking Prism was town. Prism then started to try to get me to make a case on the other townie as he outlined here:

Spoiler:

My strategy going into the day here is to bring up nn30's scum meta and pointing out the discrepancy between it and this game. This is really risky but what I'm aiming to do here is to try and get BlackVoid set into the mindset of convincing me that nn30 is scum rather than really investigating it from an unbiased perspective.

My opening today is going to have three approaches. One is to give a solid reason for nn30 that I

can't walk back

as scum, the second is to interrogate BV's townread on me, then nn's, in that order, and the third is to initiate a line of reconsideration on BV pending a Shadow reread.

First is reassuring towards nn30 that his read on me is correct, because I'm closing off my own options as mafia, as well as signaling to BV the need to build a case against nn (Given that both hard townread me, from each's perspective I have little reason to turn on them the first post of the day). The second is aimed at getting each one to go into confirmation bias mode while creating an opening vs. nn (I suspect his townread on me is not so easily justified, and BV will pick up on this). Both have also been inclined to townread me questioning reads on me-though this could change at any time, it's worth betting on one more time as it's not an instaloss if they don't. Third is aimed primarily at nn30, just because that's what I should be doing as town before I double down and vote BV. Combined with my nn30 meta, I'm hoping that this sells him on my investigation being legitimate.

Ways this can backfire: Accidentally convince one or both that I'm scum in the process of getting them to think through their own reasoning. Whoops.

Arnold's play in this lylo has been straight out a scum playbook. He's trying to psychologically maneuver me into trying to convince him that your slot was scum as opposed to allowing me to investigate. Despite never considering the possibility of your slot being scum, Arnold didn't vote me. He was waiting for me to vote your slot. The other thing that gave him away was that he wasn't really considering the possibility of me being town or attempting to solve the game despite having the time to do so. I've been busy. I haven't had time to play mafia at all the past couple of weeks. But I'm putting in effort whenever I can find time.

This one's a relatively minor thing Arnold's reaction to Doubloon's post was to nitpick on inconsistencies rather than appreciate that this was a newbie doing his best to solve the game. Sure, Doubloon's reason to townread him was bad, but it was genuine. Another weird vibe I got from Arnold was his vague hints that I was trying to avoid the game despite me being busy irl not being something I can control. 806 sucks as well both because of the manipulative scum mindset I described earlier and it being somewhat hypocritical since he suspected Zito as well. In fact he was the main person on Zito. He also obviously doesn't want to vote me even I after I suggest it because his best shot at winning is me misvoting.

As for why my slot is town - look at Cero's play: if N_M and Cero had planned the bus, Cero would surely have a lot more to say and have a lot more conviction in his N_M push. His vote betrayed a newbie town reaction. He votes N_M for all the wrong reasons like N_M was focusing on alt-hunting instead of scumhunting but it's something that a player of Cero's experience level genuinely believed. Some miscellaneous stuff: if N_M planned on self-destructing with Cero as a partner, he'd do something other than the weaksauce suspicion of Cero in 133.

Arnold's reaction is what an experienced scum player would do: pretend to buy the claim because that's what they are supposed to do until a cc. We get a glimpse into his mind at 251 where instead of just saying N_M is town, he adds the little caveat "unless someone counterclaims." It's those little things that give scum's mindset away because Arnold knows that someone will counterclaim and he's facilitating that while pretending to be against more claims. You can tell that he's expecting a cc to come. See what happens in the pages after that: Arnold despite being generally active strategically hangs back to see which direction the town is going. Once the concensus seems set on Not_Mafia, he comes out strongly against him and quickhammers. I'm going to go over the rest of Arnold's play since N_M's lynch in my next post.

how did I nitpick on Doubloon's inconsistencies? The only thing I said about his post that I thought it was weird that he townread me for hammering NM. Which you said yourself is simplistic. Nice attempt to discredit me though.

As for my play coming straight out of a scum playbook: I asked you for content multiple times. I told you to give me a good case on Cece because I was pretty convinced it was you. You said you didn't have any. Why would i vote you right out of the gates when the third player hasn't even made a single comment yet? The Cece got replaced twice. So in the meantime I tried to get more out of you to determine if I should doubt my scumread on you, but you spent 8 days not being around. I have to finish this game with 2 players who just replaced in, should I not give them the time to interact with me then? Cause that's basically what you're saying. As for me waiting for you to vote the RC slot: you said from the start that RC's slot was scum to you because you didn't think it was me. In fact you listed a bunch of reasons why I'm town not too long ago:

Here are the towntells I noticed from Arnold:

251 - This is a minor one but scum are typically more hesitant to hard-townread their partners especially if they know that Not_Mafia would soon very likely be confirmed scum. It sounded like he actually believed N_M was conf-town.

369 + 371 - This speculation on what scum were thinking is dangerous territory for scum because they risk giving out inside info but Arnold doesn't really care. It feels like he was approaching it from an uninformed POV and trying to figure out why Fykus was killed. Note, if he were scum, he would have to personally kill Fykus and then make those posts which I doubt scum would do.

408 - Mirrored my thoughts very accurately. I also liked the follow-up on Zito in the rest of his ISO which is questioning and moving the game forward. I think he'd be less likely to oppose Kawl lynch as scum since scum need three mislynches to win. I'd expect him to take what he can get.

521 - I find this paranoia of jjh927 to be genuine. If he's scum trying to get a Papa Zito lynch, antagonizing people who are townreading him is not going to make him more persuasive. But I can see town thinking "how come jj doesn't see what I see. Could I actually be wrong on Zito and jj is defending him because he knows he's town?" which is a fairly common town thought process when people defend your scumreads. But it just doesn't make strategic sense to do as scum. Pretty much the entire tone in 524.

583 - I think the frustration is townish because he's trying so hard to push his read and not getting listened to. I think scum would be more adaptable to changing their reads rather than going "Zito is scum" -> "How can't you see this jj" -> "whatever, flip me. When you see I'm town, you'll know that I've been genuine." I think he believes he's going to be vindicated when everyone sees his flip and he doesn't come across to me as the type of player who would go through the effort of putting up this fake front as scum.

RC comes in, makes a post or two and you throw it all out of the window because RC is ready to vote you.

RC already covered Cero's play and my play during NM's claim, so I'm not going to bring that up again.

I thought Arnold's conviction in that push made him town and I clearly wasn't a threat to scum considering they brought me to lylo.

No you didn't. You townread me for the reasons you listed in the post I quoted above.

RC, if there's anything else you need, feel free to ask, but I think it can't be more clear tbh.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Why would I throw my townread on you out the window if RC us ready to vote me? If I were the scum, I'd double down and push him and make a case or whatever else you asked for. But the nagging feeling that you were scum taking me for a ride has been there a while and a series of events put it over the top.

Because I already made my point about it being you. You're cornered and have nowhere else to go. Also RC is a very capable player and you probably don't want to go against him, which is understandable from a scum viewpoint.

Please describe the series of events that made you scumread me because your vote was the first time you actually mentioned me being scum.

Blackvoid, ball is in your court if you want me to to change my read on you because if you don't do something massive then I will be voting you soon.

This was the trigger for you to start scumreading me. Convenient isn't it?

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Please describe the series of events that made you scumread me because your vote was the first time you actually mentioned me being scum.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Fun game this. Sorry about being so terribly wrong about you Zito.

My reads weren't THAT bad though?


fun game. The BP strategy bothers me a lot though. I don't like it.

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

On day 3 I was hardly even reading because I was so sure you were scum. Dang!