Newbie 1845 - A New Dawn Game Over

[RadiantCowbells]

Hi!

So there's two ways we can play this game

We can go ahead with a claim strategy that I'm developing but not 100% on optimal performance of yet

Or we can not do that and play this like normal mafia

@sunlit diamond I think you're town work with me?

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature I am not scum so you are wrong somewhere.

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

[RadiantCowbells]

It stays on my drawing board unless we agree to go for it

[RadiantCowbells]

Full catch-up tomorrow gnite

[RadiantCowbells]

Why would you be trying to get me lynched before I can contribute anything to the game?

@red I don't know the optimal way to conduct this setup since I haven't finished the work that it takes. Why do you think it's scum indicative that I want to keep an unfinished strategy to myself?

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh you’re right

VOTE: RC

I don't understand why you would feel the need to put me to L1 here and I'm concerned that it came from your scumpartner coaching you to try to get a quicklynch on me.

What drove this vote?

And can everyone calm down and take me off L1? It's extremely bad form to bring me to L1 in my first day in the thread when I've said I would catch up. Why are you trying to Lynch me before I catch up unless you're scared of my catch up red/aviqf

[RadiantCowbells]

You told us if we wanna see it we need to agree but we wont know if its good or bad if you dont show us

Consider it intellectual property. I don't want to waste my intellectual property and the free wins it will likely provide on games where it gets unused and leave it open for other people to use.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't want it to spread before I get to use it.

Basically comes down to that. And the BP strategy was new at one point as well.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that sheep/creature/diamond are all town, I'm still trying to decide how I should be reading others

I think aviqf's vote was far worse than redfavours

[RadiantCowbells]

You're not getting the strategy either way, I'm not using it on a game where I was brought to L1 before I could catch up

[RadiantCowbells]

Tentative readslist
Sunlit, RC
Creature, sheep
Redflavour
Inferno
Aviqf
Sunset

[RadiantCowbells]

I guess I could see luv scum but I'm leaning towards him being tow

So let's look for 1 town in aviqf sunset inferno

[RadiantCowbells]

Immediate impulse is that it's aviqf tbh.

There were points where sunset was getting pushed by inferno that felt SvS ish

[RadiantCowbells]

Inferno is who I'm setting up to vote rn

[RadiantCowbells]

Inferno doesn't have any scum games on site unfortunately

going to compare to town games

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah him in art deco is a far cry from him in this game.

VOTE: Inferno390

[RadiantCowbells]

Also I'm feeling suicidal or masochistic or both.

VOTE: Inferno

Come at me.

this is a good vote and you should feel good about yourself for having made it but slightly less good because you have retracted the vote with the potential to feel good again if you make the vote again

[RadiantCowbells]

I'll make a case later today

[RadiantCowbells]

Storybrooke mafia when

[RadiantCowbells]

Maybe you secretly meant to say storybrooke to advertise your upcoming game

[RadiantCowbells]

I will help you bear this burden, sunlit diamond, as long as it is yours to bear.

[RadiantCowbells]

Don't you mean RadiantCowbells insanely good looking face

[RadiantCowbells]

What do you mean deuce of gears

[RadiantCowbells]

I am town, I promise!

Do you think that I'd like to you?

[RadiantCowbells]

Well I'm glad you're not stupid but this will all be less painful if you just pretend that I love you and will never lie to you.

[RadiantCowbells]

That is good. I am in fact town this game if it makes you feel better.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is the ideal mafia game. You may not like it but this is what peak scumhunting looks like.

[RadiantCowbells]

As much as I like Diamond we could use some thoughts from other people.

[RadiantCowbells]

I just want the Saul slot lynched

I am town though, so unless you have something personally against me you do not want to Lynch me.

What's the reason that you scumread Saul to the extent of completely ignoring my contribution to the game?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think people should go look at RC's Wiki page.

What specifically does this mean

[RadiantCowbells]

Which exchange

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay so wrt my scumread on Inferno it's a bunch of things.

1) The way he talks he's not like sorting the game he's making a show of stuff. Like it's really posturey and it reads as someone putting on a show for an audience.

F) The timing of this seems a little fishy. (Perhaps that's just me.) And Red wasn't that oblivious to his L2, was he? Could Red and Sheep be scumpartners doing a little RVS back and forth? Seems unlikely, considering this IS a Newbie game, but you never know...
G)Why would you RESTATE your vote, Sheep?

I write the first scumhunting post of the game. Sheep says it's forced. Then sheep asks ME, the writer of the post, if I think MY OWN post is forced. I tell him that I obviously think the post is not forced, because it's MY post. Then Sheep blatantly tells me my opinion is wrong as implies that I'm scum.

Stuff like this. It feels super not genuine and makes me think that he's scum putting on a show of having positions. If I had to put even more specific words I'd say that he's talking the way that my dad talks when he's lying. And there is some of that in his town game which initially gave me pause but it's definitely not nearly as trumped up as it is here where it feels super surreal. Like a big thing for me is him posing the questions to the audience to make a show that he's thinking about things, a big example of that can be found here

Also, Sunset seems to be lurking quite a bit proportionally and not very sure of herself. Just not very good or newbscum?

It's also weird just generally how he talks about Sunset. With most people he has and commits to a read of some sort on them, possibly more aggressively than is real, but with Sunset he goes the opposite way and waffles all over the place about them and it feels like it might be newbscum trying to put together real associatives by seeming like they're genuinely considering the possibility of them being scum. Even if she's town the whole thing is really out of place and it doesn't seem like it would be his real approach.

Also strongly scum indicative is

There's maybe a slight bit of scumhunting, but it's very broken up, and not really useful to the town.

Where he basically substitutes is useful to the town for scummy/fake and it's a common thing that comes from newbscum who aren't totally comfortable calling someone scummy.

I didn't want to seem overconfident and make a mistake.

What do you mean by 'make a mistake'? Town generally should not need to worry about making mistakes.

What I mean is that I don't want to do something stupid like getting a power role lynched day one. That counts as a mistake.

this seems like a power role claim.

This is also just super weird.

First off, stop acting like an IC, because you're not, and you do not know everything about how to play this game. There are other people in this game who are IC's and there is a reason that they are IC's, and there is a reason that you're not an IC.
Second, so what you've basically said is that your vote is an OMGUS vote, because the only reason you're voting for me is because you don't like this post.
Third, how about you actually explain why you think this post is scummy instead of asking everyone else, because right now it looks like you're just shading this post as scummy to draw some heat off of my attack on you.

This actually really reads as a scum defensiveness, if he was town who thought that they were scum he shouldn't care so much that they're scumreading him?

[RadiantCowbells]

Also more recently and largely the nail in the coffin for me: I can't see a newer player seeing me and sunlit diamond as SvS.

Like if I were newer town who thought that I was scum I would think that Sunlit diamond is town 100% of the time. It doesn't really make sense that he thinks that I'm spending all this time buttering her up unless he thinks that it's next level play but he's given no indication that he thinks it's next level play, he just seems to think at face value that's what it looks like. And I can't believe that coming from newbtown. There's a very clear read through that I'm scum and that I'm kissing up to sunlit to get her on my side, there's really no read through I can think of that explains how he thinks that we're SvS and it feels like he's just looking for people to call scum.

VOTE: Inferno

I think I'm done, that's the lynch today.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually I am rather surprised you weren't more uncomfortable with me blatantly trying to pocket you.

What did you know about me as a player before this game?

[RadiantCowbells]

Which is another way of saying that you don't think that you deserved to be town read by me? Why?

[RadiantCowbells]

Why is momentum such a concern in a game where you know that my being here is going to ratchet up the pace of the game anyway?

Frankly for 99% of players if you strongly enough feel the content from someone comes from scum that you're not willing to think about what a replacement does that's because you're confbiased and you need to get over it. Your advice is bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

LUV, if you think that Inferno and Sheep are both town then who do you think that scum is?
Sunlit, what's your read on LUV specifically?

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature, why did you vanish from existence when I showed up?

[RadiantCowbells]

Can you stop playing on MU and quickhammer inferno for me?

[RadiantCowbells]

And that's coming from trying to be pro-town and set a good example for people whose experience of being certain that someone is scum don't justify quicklynching ever RC but at this point I'm 95%+ on this being a scumflip and I think that there's a fairly high chance that a claim gets forced out of my slot if we don't make inferno happen now.

[RadiantCowbells]

And that's coming from trying to be pro-town and set a good example for people whose experience of being certain that someone is scum don't justify quicklynching ever RC but at this point I'm 95%+ on this being a scumflip and I think that there's a fairly high chance that a claim gets forced out of my slot if we don't make inferno happen now.

I'd really like to see your claim.

I believe you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay. What are your thoughts on Sunset, diamond?

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

I'm getting jumpy.

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature, you didn't even respond to me requesting you to quickhammer someone. You're obviously still posting in thread, so why?

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

I'm getting jumpy.

This makes no sense. Why unvote if you're so sure I'm scum?

I wasn't actually 95%+ sure you were scum: I wanted to see how Creature would react to it.
The fact remains that no one I scumread is playing how I would expect your scumpartner to play in a universe where you're scum and a lot of people are making the plays I'd expect them to make as scum if you were town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Obviously your most obvious scumpartner in Sunset could potentially still be it but I have a gut feeling that is usually right that there's scum outside of the newbies.

[RadiantCowbells]

For the record I'm still leaning you town Dia but I would put you behind others right now and I'm trying to get you out of my PoE if you're town

there's two things that are making me wary of your slot

1) I generally as a rule find that when I townread people they accept it and feel they deserve to be townread because I think fundamentally town believe that they deserve to be townread.
You have a high opinion of my play but when I townread you right away your impulse was to say that I, as town, was reaction testing you because I thought that you were scum.
That feels weird to me: it feels like the more natural play would be to assume my townread was real and I had you correctly if town or scum trying to get in your good graces if you think that I'm a good player and you have a town role PM.

2) Just generally like I don't feel much motivation by you to sort me. Admittedly I didn't have to sort you either but you mostly just seemed to accept my townread and townread me back.
Which is another way of asking why do you townread me, especially if now you're concerned that I was pushing a mislynch on Inferno?

I'm not saying either of these make you scum but they're holding me back right now.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is one of the big contradictory spots I'm talking about. I ask the question of Sunset being newbscum, and Dia makes a big deal over the question. Then he goes and basically resates my question. And now Dia's ready to lynch becasue of exactly what he told me was a bad question.

Because my read on her wasn't just her activity or lack thereof. It was on the fact that ther was little activity, and what activity did exist seemed very unsure and newbscum.
So Dia basically shaded my question as scum and then restated my question as a read.

I don't think that it's unreasonable of Dia at all to scumread you going after Sunset for being a lurker when you just saw a game with 3 town lurkers.

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature too, I think it's 100% established that you can't read me from my point of view but I would expect you to be finding some sort of weird meta logic to clear or indict me by now.

[RadiantCowbells]

Inferno/Aviqf are you going to apologize after game when I'm town because this is completely unreasonable.

[RadiantCowbells]

And I'm bussing sunlit when I am trying to clarify where she stands on things while explicitly saying that I'm not scumreading her? That's original

[RadiantCowbells]

See, now this sounds like your attack on me was completely made up and you backed down because I punched a bunch of holes in it.
Yeah, combined with Saul's play, I'm definitely reading this slot as scum.
VOTE: RC

You didn't punch shit in my reasoning, I just didn't feel the need to argue with you about it. Do you think that if I were scum I would be scared of you?

[RadiantCowbells]

red/saul/inferno are still my favorite lynches today; i can go with any of them

Go for it, but know that tomorrow you or red will be lynched for pushing me.

I'm fine with dying if it means one of you two gets lynched too.

btw red very nice voteback you did there.

like newsflash shit like this doesn't come from newb scum. there's nothing special about your saul read and he was actually sort of obvtown when I read him after replacing in.

Okay, first I'm playing within my meta, then I'm playing out side of my meta, and now... I don't know what to think.
Why am I town again, exactly?

You're not playing explicitly to your meta as I saw it in art deco but I think that the differences aren't necessarily scum indicative.
I stand by everything I said about your phrasings leaning scum but I even said while I said it that they existed in your town game too and I was never 100% sure that the difference mattered.
Mafia is a game of shades of grey and there's few things that are universally scum indicative for all people. I have no difficulty tracing Sunlit's read on you given how clear she was about how she reads you.

[RadiantCowbells]

inferno your progression is bullshit

Sheep,

you

are bullshit, and I would have you lynched right now for constantly telling me that I'm an idiot, but I have bigger fish to fry than whiny one-scentence posters.

Right: so here's the thing. If you do succeed in getting me lynched my last post is going to tell everyone to policy lynch you if you try to push reads for the remainder of the game because I'm thoroughly frustrated by everything that you've done so far and think that your vote largely works for scum regardless of your alignment.

Sheep isn't bullshit and his way of dealing with you may not be the most respectful but your way of approaching the game isn't so hot either.

You have a lot of ego invested in the game and it's fundamentally hurting your ability both to play the game and to have other people play nice with you.

[RadiantCowbells]

If scum is 2/3 of Creature/LUV/Sunset, who is the most likely and least likely to be scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like your frustration with me leading to your vote is the kind of thing that is almost never going to cause you to vote scum, because scum don't actually have to try to scumhunt so they can be reserved in their actions.
They don't have to make pushes in ways that will rile up the people their voting so they will almost never be on the receiving end of your frustration with me for pushing on you.

[RadiantCowbells]

A) What it is is me deciding what I think gives town the highest odds of winning the game if I end up getting lynched. Nothing less, nothing more.
B) I'm sorry that you feel that way but Sheep's behaviour is reasonably standard on the site. I would definitely agree it doesn't belong in the newbie queue but I don't think that you're going to get any traction reporting him.
C) I could give a length diatribe about how your ego is impacting some of your decisions but I don't feel like going through the motions. I am town, why don't you work with me instead of against me?

This seems like an incredible attempt to shade everything I've thrown at you so far as biased and unreasonable.

I think that everything that you've thrown at me thus far is biased and unreasonable so this isn't off base.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like at the most basic level: do you think it's possible that your frustration with Sheep and being pushed on has caused you to revenge push me to get a feeling of control over the game? Because that's precisely what I feel is going on

[RadiantCowbells]

Inferno, you're not going to prove that you're better than Sheep when I flip town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like this, which is trying to shade it as emotional and unfounded.

Put yourself in my shoes: do you think that your push on me feels not-emotional and well founded from my position where I know that I'm town?

[RadiantCowbells]

And no: I specifically called one quote and one quote only a reaction test for someone else, which was the one where I said I was 95% sure and given that I specifically addressed it at Creature and immediately tried to follow up on the lack of a reaction from him to the reaction test, I think it's pretty obvious that I was reaction testing or at the very least actively pretending to do so, not rewriting history.

What do you feel like is a legitimate hole that you've pushed in my case on you, that doesn't boil down to disagreeing with me on what conditional scumtells are?

That's not even what this is. I'm making the point that sheep has been calling everything I do crap. Which has nothing to do with how I read you.

I'm saying that at an unconscious level that you're wrong and your push on me is to a significant extent happening because you're frustrated by Sheep and trying to prove yourself and not thinking clearly.

Becasue you attacked me, stopped attacking me really fast and ade a lame excuse as to why, and then started shading everything I say when I push.
Post by Inferno390 » less than a minute ago

I think that attacking people and pulling back really fast is something that I'm known for as a player as town specifically, so no I don't think that's something I'd support.
You say lame excuse I say my reads developed over time. And frankly I am restraining my urge to react a lot more viscerally, you're going to have to put up with the shading.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am quite literally thinking about replacing out of this game. Because that's how tired of the way sheep is treating me.

I understand that and I'm trying to get all of us past that. Don't you understand that if you're thinking about replacing out of the game because of someone that it affects how you play the game?

[RadiantCowbells]

And Sheep please give it a rest.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like can you both not talk to each other for a little bit so I can talk to inferno?

[RadiantCowbells]

I just went back through the game and yeah Sheep could've been a lot nicer here. This is the newbie queue and it's intended for people to learn, there's no call for implying that people are bad or dumb.

I'm sorry @Inferno if I came across as only interested in winning and not your feelings, my gears aren't really working right. I'd like you to stay and we can work this out but I understand if you're replacing out.

[RadiantCowbells]

You are able to retract that if you so desire but I don't want to force you to stay in an unpleasant environment.

[RadiantCowbells]

Thank you sheep.

Inferno, where do you feel like I had a hole in my case on you? Even quoting a post from you where you explain that is fine.

[RadiantCowbells]

No plz do not leave anyone

Lets get along

Also im suspicious of RC

Please don't be

[RadiantCowbells]

Well, my first thing is that this doesn't make any sense. The second post you quoted was me just reiterating what happened, and while the first quote does seem a little showy, it was also the first scumread of the game, and I was just trying to throw around theory and make discussion. So I'm not really getting how you can take this and turn it into a scumtell.

I consider this a scumtell and I think it's very accurate in general. Right now you're disagreeing that I would use this as a scumtell: if I find examples of me pushing on people for similar things does that suffice?

You say I'm waffling with Sunset, but sunset has posted very little and has been waffling herself at the point of this post. doesn't it make sense for me to be unsure on how to place her?

I agree that you would be unsure on how to place her but you do conduct yourself differently in terms of how you deal with her than anyone else in the game and it stuck out like a sore thumb in terms of the read.
It's not that it can't come from town who happens to be treating Sunset differently but it was discordant and it felt possible that it was discordant because she was your scumbuddy.

I don't understand how this is weird at all. I'm literally just trying to interpret sunset's post here.

It is objectively a strange thing to bring up and I think if you ask other people in the game they'll agree with me. I wouldn't even call it specifically scum leaning, just weird.

I've been calling sheep scum for most of the game. So how can I be uncomfortable with calling him scummy?

This is again something you're going to have to go with as something that I think is a tell that you may disagree with. Even once or twice in the game using that phrasing triggers me. I can also find examples of me pushing others for this.

How is this defensive? I'm attacking the person who I think is scum's wild vote on me.

I think that you're objectively defensive here even if it doesn't make you scum. I now understand the dynamic between you and sheep better and read it as you just generally being mad at him.

[RadiantCowbells]

And this is why inferno is town.

I've townread him since I started putting together the pieces with how he was acting towards Meep fwiw.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also more recently and largely the nail in the coffin for me: I can't see a newer player seeing me and sunlit diamond as SvS.

Like if I were newer town who thought that I was scum I would think that Sunlit diamond is town 100% of the time. It doesn't really make sense that he thinks that I'm spending all this time buttering her up unless he thinks that it's next level play but he's given no indication that he thinks it's next level play, he just seems to think at face value that's what it looks like. And I can't believe that coming from newbtown. There's a very clear read through that I'm scum and that I'm kissing up to sunlit to get her on my side, there's really no read through I can think of that explains how he thinks that we're SvS and it feels like he's just looking for people to call scum.

VOTE: Inferno

I think I'm done, that's the lynch today.

And here, I don't take it at face value. If I ere taking your buttering up as it was, I wouldn't be suspect of Dia. The fact that I do suspect Dia indicates that I'm thinking it's next level play, and that this is a scumteam trying to scumtalk and agreeing on my lynch. But that interpretatin is based on the entire exchange that happens between you and Dia from the moment you replaced in, which feels odd to me in it's own right.

Okay, that's fair, but I still think most people would trend towards taking the RC is pocketing Sunlit perspective and I think you should be able to understand that without further explanation?

Hey cow why do you keep saying you’re town what are you trying to accomplish

I'm trying to make other people believe that I'm town so I can stop defending myself and we can move on to lynching someone who will hopefully flip scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

But what makes me believe you’re not scum saying that

I feel like it's obvious that my approach to the game has been town motivated and I'm hoping people see that for better reasons than because I say that I'm town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Mafia is a game of shades of grey. There's a reason that there's few universally agreed on scumtells and that's because context is everything. Understanding how frustrated you were getting with Sheep gives me a new perspective on some of your play and it is worth pointing out that even when I initially went on you I mentioned that some of this behavior existed in your towngame too, but I thought you were still scum because of 1) degree and 2) other things that were absent. A lot of those other things now have better explanations coming from town!PoV than scum!PoV and frustration explains why your behaviour would have seemed over the top so while I unvoted you originally because other people were sketching me out my read on you largely changed due to the meep thing.

I honestly think Red is the best lynch at this point. I don't think we've actually seen him contribute anything to town.
Beyond that, Uzi, Creature, and Sunset are in the same boat. Of course, Sunset will probably be replaced, but still.

I am generally happy with your non-Redflavor pool and would like to lynch there

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I'm not spectacularly townreading RedFlavor but there's stuff from him that gives me pause. I would really like to kill LUV right now

[RadiantCowbells]

The three of them is currently my PoE pool

Sunset honestly doesn't have a bad ISO and I'd love to see her come back but I'm townreading the game at large enough that I'd be okay-ish lynching her.

Creature had bursts of activity that seemed more likely to be his town game but it feels weird to me that he hasn't put any impetus into reading me because he claims to have the stance that I'm an easy read (even though his reads on me are vritually never right, mind you) and usually finds something to try to read me on. Like in our last game he decided that I was town for a period of inactivity because I should have been having more fun as scum. There's none of that here, he unvoted me then didn't really follow up with anything and I'm not like locking him in as scum but I definitely want to force content out of him.

LUV is sketchy on a number of lines, foremost of which is that I don't think it's at all likely that he genuinely believed the IC advice he was giving to other players so I think the odds are fairly good that he was encouraging play that he knew was poorly thought out because the line of reasoning would encourage people to push me. It's also strange that he hasn't engaged with me at all since my replace in and I think that's sort of what he would do as scum. It's worth noting that he chain tunneled me in one of our recent games that I ended up dayvigging him in but the circumstances were different and I feel like he ought to have learned from it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Another mafia site, I think they do blitz (fast-paced) games, but I've never been curious enough to go look.

this basically

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that we were meant to be, at least for the duration of this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sunset! Hi! It's great to see you again. How are you?

[RadiantCowbells]

thanks accountant.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that Sunset could go either way personally

[RadiantCowbells]

I've made my mind up that I want to lynch LUV, where I go from there is contingent on his flip and whoever dies.

Likely Creature given that I still feel like he's made zero effort to care about my alignment and he's not one of the people willing to just write off games versus me as losses.

[RadiantCowbells]

I've done enough that I think any spectators are floored by the fact that I'm still being scumread.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like, you haven't engaged with my material at all, just sat there and calling me scum. Aviqf too. That's not how mafia is played.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: RC

I don't think that I'm helping the game environment when one person I'm pretty sure is town and one person who is mehtown refuse to engage with the game until I'm dead.
At this point I'm hardclaiming VT. Lynch me and follow up with a lynch on LUV tomorrow. Please anyone who was scumreading me learn from why you scumread me because I put more visible effort into gamesolving than anyone.
If you're scumreading me here without the benefit of paranoia about my username, whatever you're doing to look for scum is not helping you.

[RadiantCowbells]

This one is truly exceptional, I replaced an objectively town slot and put more effort into both scumhunting and building town unity than anyone in the game.

I don't think that anyone who is currently scumreading me has a chance of catching scum this game without my flip and doing a full reset after it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Frankly the price I would have to pay to get townread in this game is one that I'm not willing to pay in a game that already saw Sheep's replacement.

[RadiantCowbells]

There's four votes on me from people who are already in game, one of the people who replaced out was my strongest defender and the other was not voting me.

UNVOTE:

I'll give it a rest but I don't think that this situation is helping town whatsoever. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong as a player to not appeal as town but I don't know what it is atm.

What purpose does it actually serve to self vote and flounce? Regardless of alignment, do the work to win the game.

Although I'm assuming from your comments that you are hard townreading Red and Avi then?

I think that Aviqf is fairly likely town, I think that Red is marginally more likely to be town than null but would not be at all surprised if he was scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

bienvenue au canade

[RadiantCowbells]

Welcome back, Sando. Nice to see you returned!

[RadiantCowbells]

LUV why have you made absolutely no effort to engage with me when I'm trying to push a lynch on you

[RadiantCowbells]

Sando, my entire scumpool is your townreads.

I would rather you vote me, get my flip, prove that whatever you're doing to scumhunting isn't working, then vote my scumreads tomorrow.

Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.

Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.

VOTE: RC

Not unvoting from here on out.

[RadiantCowbells]

Whoever is next on please hammer. This game is going nowhere until people know that what I've said came from town.

[RadiantCowbells]

As I recall I've never been mislynched in a newbie before without the SEs going seriously off the rails so this game really is an outlier in terms of how little thought people are putting into it, but with scum LUV encouraging people to play like shit for strategic gain as an IC and creature doing virtually nothing in terms of setting another example, it's understandable that actual town gamesolving effort doesn't make sense and looks like scum.

I'm complaining to PP after this game. You should not be an IC.

[RadiantCowbells]

Guys, talking about your reasoning and thoughts on reads is how games get solved. If you're town in most cases, there's not enough of a downside in being transparent and sharing just about everything you have on your mind with the rest of town to not do it.

Good, normal advice

I don’t think this is the right mindset to have right now. Was Saul a difficult read? Yes, but if you strongly feel the content that you did manage to understand is coming from scum, no replacement can change that.

And also, usually if a day is 15 pages long, it's long enough. I understand people don't like to be wrong but whatever minor information or details you're waiting on isn't worth the inertia it produces to stall the town. Getting it moving again can be so frustrating and hard. Town needs some momentum to stay engaged and active.

Shit advice that contradicts previous advice: at no point has any real case been given on saul from the people derptunneling but there's no effort to encourage talking about reasoning like LUV encouraged earlier in the game. Rather, he's encouraging people to stick with shit tunnels on me that they largely haven't given reasoning or words on because he wants to see me mislynched
at no point should people believe so strongly that someone is scum that they refuse to read a replacement and for an IC to encourage shit tunnels rather than reevaluation from newbies is gross
your win condition does not justify giving people bad play advice and if you can't straddle the line of giving people good advice but still making them lose then you shouldn't IC.

With that being said, I don’t hammer town reads and I never have a problem with no lynching.

like this is on the border but fuck no in context this post was made because you wanted to encourage a mislynch on me without considering other people.

I’m not sure why you’re hung up on me and Creature not engaging you. If someone isn’t being engaged with, it’s either because their content isn’t deemed important to have a conversation about or they simply don’t want to engage with someone they think is scum.

Sorry what happened to talking about reasoning and thoughts on games being the proper way to play the game, or does that only apply when you're not trying to push a mislynch on someone who you know is obvious town if people would actually treat me like a human being? Don't teach newbies to shit tunnel people and refuse to engage with them, I've taken my losses without being an IC trying to be a better role model and that's from a person who is systematically correct enough to justify hardcore tunneling. You owe your job as an IC better.

Attacking my character because you’re getting lynched is pretty low. I’m afraid you’ve let your anger mature into bitterness, RC.

I've said nothing about your character besides that you're doing an awful job as an IC and on that front I've restrained myself a lot because I am really pissed off by your play this game.
That's ignoring the fact that this is obviously not a post that comes from town.

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

Ok RC is town. Wasn’t sure at the first self vote but now after not getting towncred for doing it and then doing it again I buy it

If RC was town, why would he vote the only person that he knows is innocent?

How the fuck is this remotely a good line of reasoning? Why if I was scum would I vote one of the two people who I know getting lynched hurts my win condition.
At least as town I can believe that my lynch helps town and there's a clear line of reasoning that I've already given as to why I believe that: why would I be doing this as scum?

I get the feeling that you're just pushing me for a mislynch because you think that you can and that there's nothing actually behind your derptunnel on me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature why are you still not posting?

[RadiantCowbells]

Spoiler: @Sando. Most of the game doesn't need to read this because a lot of it doesn't pertain to this as an individual mafia game. Read it if you need more to get a read on me, though.

I'm saying that LUV knows how to be a good IC but is rather choosing to be a shitty IC because it favours his win condition and he can't bridge the gap of being a good IC and a good scum player at the same time. I'm not saying that LUV is scum because he's a shitty IC: he knew how to give good advice early in the game but then switched to giving shit advice (with the end result of trying to lynch town!RC) that contradicts earlier advice. I don't think it's at all plausible that he sincerely believes that the advice he's giving is given in the newbies best interests and I think that if you stop for a fucking moment and think about what he's asked the newbies to do you'll agree with me.

Do you, Sando, think it's good advice for them to continue to derptunnel a replacement and ignore their contributions if they scumread the predecessor? Do you think it's good advice for them to not talk to people they're scumreading? What he's doing is encouraging derptunneling and given that the current gamestate is a bunch of people, yourself partially included, derptunneling me there's clear scum motivation and it's not something that I can see him encouraging as town.

Yes, I made a claim strategy emulating EM style gameplay that caused Matrix6 to stop being the standard game. But the replacement has even more room for claim abuse.
What do you want me as a player to do? Ignore the fact that I can up my teams chances of winning by using a static strategy?

And I -did- end up not using the bulletproof claim strategy in my later matrix6 games because it demonstrably hurt the investment of newbies who rolled bulletproof.
But I'm not going to not do something on the grounds that it's somehow against the spirit of the game to try to win.
And frankly given that the generation you came from was also the generation of the cop claiming day 1 in newbies with the silent doctor, you really don't have much room to be complaining.

If you want to discourage claim strategies, you should run setups that don't favour claim strategies. As is this one favours claim strategies even more than the one that preceded it, so I will be using them in future games.

RC this is in no way shit advice. The idea that you should just give up on reads because the person swaps out is actually terrible advice, which you seem to be implying. Sure, if the read is based on lurking and the person swaps out, then you should re-evaluate, but if the person is acting scummy, you don't just forget that if they swap out. You're basically asking someone to lose information, and information is fundamentally pro-town. LUV even says "content", specifically saying that it's not about lurking etc that is further explained by the swap.

Less than 4% of the people who play on mafiascum.net should EVER be so confident in their reads that they would ignore a replacement's actions.
That's just facts. Your individual judgement isn't some perfect arbiter. I'm not advocating completely giving up on previous reads but I am 100% saying that LUV saying that you should fucking ignore the replacement because you scumread the predecessor enough is puke level play to encourage. Read what he said again, specifically the bit about no replacement can change that. No one should be telling newbies that having a read that no replacement can change is okay, because that's literally the definition of bad confbias.

I honestly thought the "I don't mind no lynching" was far, far worse advice than encouraging a mislynch.

Okay so here's what you're missing. This isn't about the quality of the advice he gives. I don't give a shit what LUV encourages if he genuinely believes it's the correct play for town in whatever situation. Which is why I said it's on the border. I think it's theoretically possible LUV could actually have believed that what he was advocating was the correct play for town. I didn't expect Virtuoso when he randomly decided to IC to be a good IC but as long as he tried his best whatever. The fact that his shit advice also lined up with his scum wincondition and the fact that it's generally not what I've seen from him in past games suggests that he is in fact intentionally giving advice that's against the townies win conditions in the long terms and that I am not okay with and will continue to be not okay with.

But again, I said it's on the border because this specific post I could plausibly see as coming from newbiebestinterest!LUV (it's shitty advice, but yes I think LUV could say it sincerely) and as a result I am not willing to hold it against him in the same way.

So should we take you at your word that you try to set a good example? The idea that you're actually in any way helping new players here is utterly ludicrous. I'm comfortable with an RC lynch today.

See: my stance on selfvoting used to be an incredibly unpopular opinion but things change over time.
I am not doing town any favours by allowing town to be lynched and keeping myself as a heavily scumread slot.
The best possible thing that I could do for town at that moment was to make an impression on the remaining towns with my flip and move the game forward and selfvoting enabled that end.

I don't selfvote often but I've been doing it for years and I stand by it as the correct move in all the situations I've done it. Except the one time I did it out of true tilt in a hydra.

Am I encouraging newbies to selfvote? Fuck no, because largely they can't determine what the correct situation to do so is. And generally I try to set a good role model for everyone and not just myself, like I linked to you in several games where I said that I assessed my own reads as the best in the game and a specific person as scum but chose to lynch the person scumread by the majority of players instead because that's USUALLY the correct play, but I think that me being scumread here is a very teachable moment because it's so flagrantly fucking wrong.

I am the objectively most obvious town in this game by any measure of towniness, I've tried hard to scumhunt, I've been reevaluating reads, I've been trying to make a good newer player experience, I've shown genuine emotion in how I've responded to things. I should not be scumread. Me being scumread isn't just slightly off kilter here it's mind blowing.

The fact that I am being scumread shows that town are doing something way fucking wrong: and the best thing to do right now is to show everyone that RIGHT FUCKING NOW and make them hit the reset button. I can easily push the lynch onto lynchbaity players that have a modicum of chance of hitting scum, but that isn't going to reset the game. My own lynch is.

I will defend to the end my conduct this game as the correct way to teach newer players how the game is played. This isn't like 1821 where I legit gambited around asking to be lynched which I will admit isn't the greatest newbie game behaviour but I thought I could talk myself out of being lynched and I think that talking my way out of being lynched in and of itself shows newer players how a genuine display of emotion can help them get out of trouble. Which is in and of itself a questionable worldview and I understand hesitation around accepting it, but that's not this game.

There's no manipulation here. I want all the newbies to learn from this game day. There's a reason I haven't unvoted myself following Aviqf's change of wagon and will not do so unless I can hammer LUV. Your opinion and mine differing on how to teach new players given my success rate in retaining new players in my games shows that you're probably wrong.

I will do as much as I can to cater to your worldview in terms of creating a positive environment but your way of playing the game isn't the only one. Don't expect me to play to your norms.

Holy fuck I am literally mastina today.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually it does and within the bounds of the game I've only talked about it as it pertained to the game, besides the throwaway comment about complaining to PP.
I do not think that LUV is giving genuine play advice to the newbies and I think it is because he is scum. My personal views on how acceptable that is come secondary for now to my desire to lynch him for it.

[RadiantCowbells]

1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.

Before I continue this response: did I denigrate you, the person behind the game AT ALL?

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually also independent of that response: please cite the points that you've made about how I specifically am scummy if you want me to address them.

My apologies if I missed anything.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay. I was trying to clarify that because believe it or not I care a lot more about whether or not you think that I was being an ass than scummy.
I was trying to make sure we're on the same page that I wasn't trying to be an ass and if you were I wanted to work it out.

[RadiantCowbells]

@673: I was planning from that point to refuse to support any wagons that weren't myself or LUVs. From that point of view with the reads around myself and LUV, yes I 100% believe I would have had to claim before LUV got lynched.
You say it's out of nowhere but it happened because I was trying to think how the rest of the day would go and measure reads and I came to the conclusion that I would basically inevitably be lynched before LUV.
I think that you're largely calling it scummy because you don't understand the way that I play, which I understand for my part but what do you think the actual scum motivation was for me to claim VT there?

@692: yay.

@727: Again, this is a difference of playstyles. I don't recall calling anyone stupid, I did not mean to, and I'm sorry if I did. But I think emphasizing how obvtown that I feel that I've been is important to understanding why I'm playing the way that I am. If I was like having a generally bad game and that was why I was being scumread and the push on me wasn't pure scum motivation then I wouldn't react the way I have because then it's my fault I'm being scumread and my focus would be on showing that I'm town. I resorted to selfvoting because I felt that in an objective sense I had done the best I could to show that I was town and it wasn't working.

And yes: I appeal to emotion as both alignments. AtE is a lot more common now than it was when you played, in no insignificant way because of yours truly.
I think that if you read this game and that game side by side and really think about my motivations when I'm posting it's clear that I come from a different place in this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh and as for the 619 bit, I don't ever say what you say that I say about being ignored to D2. Other people say that.
My 619 just says that I'm town so he should stop voting me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm trying to lynch you. You tarnished your own name, LUV.

[RadiantCowbells]

Besides, again, saying that I was complaining to PP about it: I have said absolutely nothing against you in this game besides what was necessary for explaining my stances on why you were scum.
You seem to feel entitled to me not addressing something that you are clearly doing in the most game related manner I can possibly address it. You are not entitled to that.

I do not believe that there is any explanation for your actions thus far than that you are giving the newbies bad play advice intentionally. If I'm wrong, explain your actions after game.
If I thought there was even the slightest possibility that you were town I would have tackled this a little more diplomatically but I do not think such a possibility coincides with your play this game.

I'm not going to entertain the play advice that you gave following my replace in by debating it as if it's worth debating. If you have a problem with what I've said about your advice, take it up with me after game.

[RadiantCowbells]

If that's how you feel that's how you feel. If you're town I think you find my playstyle so offensive that you're not honestly evaluating me. If you're scum, then you're scum.

Just lynch the people that I've told you to on future days.

[RadiantCowbells]

And no: I don't think any further handholding was necessary. I fully explained why I did everything that I did and where I wanted town to go from there. I also never raged at the IC, I tackled it as minimally as possible to avoid bogging the game down in a discussion of what it means to be a competent IC. Which, for the record, was against my wincondition because I guarantee if I actually blew up on LUV like I want to for how poor of a job he has done this game I would be locktowned by everyone town for it because you can't fake that kind of rage. But I've chosen to keep it to myself in the interest of maintaining a positive game experience for everyone else.

You label things anti-town, I label them pro-town. I don't subscribe to your views on how mafia is played, I don't subscribe to your views on what my job is as an SE. Unfortunately for you my side largely won the culture war and you'll find the styles of play in 2017 MS a lot closer to mine than whatever people you're used to playing with.

You may not like my playstyle but I hope that you can learn to control whatever knee jerk reaction you're feeling.

I flat out cannot see how your play is a good example of town play in the context of a newbie game. I don't find it personally offensive and I can see how in the context of other types of games what you've done would be seen as less scummy, although I wouldn't go so far as to say pro-town.

Believe me, I get it. You're not the first person from your era who reacts the way you have to my play.

[RadiantCowbells]

You do have a point about there being two scum votes on me though. I still hold the view that my lynch is somewhat beneficial for town but in the interests of playing in a way that you will appreciate more

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vet

[RadiantCowbells]

And frankly you being there was a large part of it because I knew your vote was going to find its way onto me. If you're town you need a reset because you're playing this game in a way that doesn't work in 2018. I think making as much fanfare out of my lynch as possible is going to be the biggest influence on how you end up playing the remainder of the game. But I don't think that any amount of explanation of who I am or why I play the way I do will have any impact on you until you know that I'm town this game because you seem to think that everything that characterizes my play is straight up a scumtell. Which is, well, dead wrong. And you seem to think that I'm a bad example, but I'm also considered one of if not the best players who current play.

So I really don't know how to reach you from here besides by giving you my flip.

[RadiantCowbells]

Though, I do find it pretty... odd at best that you are fine with LUV's IC play but have an issue with my SE play.

[RadiantCowbells]

(But again I can see it as 2009 you fixating on the OMGWTFBBQ THATS NOT DONE stuff in my play as opposed to the gentler wrongness of everything that LUV has done.)
I'm flashier in my being opposed to whatever ideals you hold dear I guess.

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature: I have difficulty believing that you do not have a strong enough stance on my alignment to take a vote or that you don't care enough to as town, but I do believe that you as scum would be avoiding this situation. If you are town you are a huge difference right here and should get involved. If you're scum, continue to avoid the game and you will be lynched for it later anyway, so.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have a way of predicting the future.

[RadiantCowbells]

???

I did so because someone was being critical of my performance of an SE because of it.

Why are you scumreading me?

Why is it that you haven't even attempted to consider the possibility that I might be town?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like all 3 of {LUV, Creature, Redflavor} are trying so hard to be lockscum but one of them has to be town, so.

[RadiantCowbells]

@Sandro if you're such a good little townie why aren't you worried about the fact that Redflavor has never given a reason for scumreading you?
Same goes to LUV who hasn't given any sort of explanation for why I am scum.

Why does none of that bother you if you're such a stickler for good old fashioned town play when two people are derptunneling without giving any reason but both of them are somehow your townreads?

[RadiantCowbells]

@Sunlit I could use a voice of sanity to talk to while I'm still in this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Scumreading me, yeah.

But those were issues with his role as an IC: not his actual play as it pertains to his alignment in this game. I have issues with his actual play as it pertains to his alignment in this game.

Why is he, in your words, scumreading me? Does it concern you that you don't have an answer to that? Same goes for Redflavor.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I personally think everyone in the game should be a LOT more sketched out that LUV and RedFlavor have both given no real reasons to scumread me, LUV giving absolutely nothing and Red just blaming the selfvote for a scumread he had before that happened and a read that was already argued by Sunlit regarding my claim strategy.

What makes you think that my claiming to be a good SE despite you not liking my play makes me more likely to be scum than either of those people?

[RadiantCowbells]

1) Why does me not wanting to waste a PR claim strategy I've spent days calculating percentages for because I was at L-1 and didn't think I'd get the town to execute it as a result make me scum?
2) Why does me self voting make me scum? You're listening things that I've done but not why it makes me scum: what specifically makes that a more likely action for scum!me to engage in than town!me.
3) I am doing it regardless of whether I get lynched or not, why does that make me scum? This doesn't even make sense: if anything me genuinely feeling that LUV is failing as an IC locks me in as town, do you think I'm lying about it?
4) If you ask anyone in this game I use AtE as both alignments- why does this make me scum? Does the use of AtE make someone scum? Why isn't, say, Inferno scum for using AtE earlier?

[RadiantCowbells]

Because here's how I see the LUV vote on RC going down.

LUV votes Saul
RC swaps in
LUV says Inferno is well within his rights to maintain his suspicion on Saul with RC now being in the game
RC attacks LUV for said post
LUV ignores this to a large extent

LUV has never voted you, search Vote: RadientCowbells and you won't find a quote from LUV, he voted for Saul and left it on you. I do not think his reasoning is bad, and given he's been personally attacked I'm honestly not surprised he's not keen to engage with you.

Red strikes me as newbie-town flailing. The worst I can say is that he opportunistically jumped on your bandwagon, but I don't see the strong link to LUV that I think you're inferring? His attack on you about the claim-strat was odd, but honestly I have NFI what the claim from you meant there and given I'm the only person to have thought it deserved instant-lynch I'm clearly not in a position to make a read into his reaction, that's something I will defer to authority on, since I'm looking at that from my experience 5+ years ago.

Okay.

At this point I think I've tried enough on you. I'll try to talk to other people.

I strongly strongly ask you that if I end up flipping today you sheep both confirmed town Sheepsaysmeep (your predecessor) and myself since we both are experienced in the current meta and had similar reads. I really think your reads right now are like many degrees worse than random.

[RadiantCowbells]

At the end Sheep realized Inferno was town. Posts like 743 make that very obvious to me.
There's a difference in my mind between Sheep and Inferno's fight which was borne out of animosity and their actual reads.

But fine: ignore Sheep's reads and follow mine.

[RadiantCowbells]

possibly just vi

also this makes it clearer that he was considering it.
He also townread me and Sunlit, for the record.

Sunlit dies tonight if not protected I guarantee you because she's the only town player who can get some sort of cohesion going tomorrow so protection on her

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm desperately trying to convince you that you really have no idea what you're doing.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like. I am seriously concerned that you are single handedly going to hand this game to scum given how confident you are in your play and how bad your reads are.
It only takes one person who really believes in themselves to make a game unwinnable, and I think that is likely to be you this game based on your play Day 1.

[RadiantCowbells]

Just please get your ego in check as of Day 2 if I end up getting lynched, all I ask.

[RadiantCowbells]

You see me as arrogant because you don't like the implication that I'm better than you but given that you haven't played in nine years that should realisticallly go without saying.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don’t have problem with you disagreeing with my advice RC. I have a problem with you insinuating I’m intentionally giving advice that is not in a newbie’s best interest just because you do not agree with it.

I’m not really sure why you’re trying to lynch me other than disagreeing with how I’m approaching this game as an IC. You said something about me not trying to engage you and stating that you believe that’s something I would sort of do as scum with no supporting evidence. So unless you have some sort of secret meta on me, you have no case.

Earlier I listed slots I was not willing to lynch and then some null reads. I felt why I’m willing to lynch certain slots was self-explanatory.

I could lynch Creature but a lot of what I’ve been scum reading him for has to do with experience and meta. I don’t think that kind of reasoning are something that the average newbie can follow. I also don’t think his wagon would gain any traction at this point in time.

I don’t really want to lynch Red anymore.

So that just leaves you. I feel your slot is not like Sunset’s slot at all where there is very little indicative of alignment going on there.

Well I wouldn't have a problem if I disagreed with your advice. I do feel that you are genuinely, knowingly giving incorrect advice to encourage my mislynch and I don't think that's okay.

I'm trying to lynch you because I don't think that there's a chance in hell that you would think that I'm scum here and you creating a bullshit PoE reason to mislynch me without talking my play feeds into that, I do not for a moment think that you would scumread me through everything that I've done because of 'PoE'. Even Creature who is likely scum is too scared to vote me.

You've said that there's not little indicative of alignment which means there's a lot indicative of alignment going on: what is that again?

[RadiantCowbells]

1) i think you werent going to use it anyways
2) you made it look like you are comfortable with your lynch to look like townie but you werent actually comfortable cuz when you were L-1 you unvoted yourself
3) it doesnt locks you as town. I think you wanted luv to make case on someone else and lynch them
4) it feels like you are trying harder to not get lynched because you are scum

1) Okay, but why does that make me scum?
2) I voted myself to L-1 then kept myself at L-1 until Sando accused me of being a bad SE because of it.
Claiming that I unvoted because I didn't want to be L-1 is a blatant misrepresentation of what actually happ.ened in thread.
3) Actually yes it does. If I genuinely think that LUV is giving the newbies incorrect game advice to push scum motivation

that means that I'm town.

So either you think that I'm lying about the entire thing strategically or you think that I'm town. There's no two ways about.
What indicates that I wanted LUV to make a case on someone else, where did that come from because nothing I've done has ever indicated I'm interested in hearing a case from LUV on someone else.
Please find in my ISO where I indicated that I wanted LUV to make a case on someone else so I could lynch them because no such thing even remotely exists.
4) Why is how hard I try to get lynched scum indicative? Further, this is again based on an intentional misreading of my play where I unvoted because I didn't want to be L-1 when I had put myself to L-1 in the first place, so if anything I'm absolutely not trying hard to not get lynched: I'm trying hard to get a paper trail from you guys so everyone else sees tomorrow that everything that you've thrown at me is pulled out of your ass to make sure a scum gets lynched tomorrow before they even get the chance to post.

[RadiantCowbells]

And with regards to LUV, do you really think he can't come up with a better reason to vote me than PoE after me being the most active person in the game state? because that's crap and everyone should know that.

And @Creature you're still completely absent from the gamestate and haven't given reads.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Sando okay! I don't think that we're going to get along. We go back to what I said initially, I think you just find my playstyle offensive. I don't believe that your vote on me is not personal.
But I do ask you to vote the people that I've asked you to vote on future days.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think there's a single answer. In terms of a single, universally adoptable answer I would say that mafia is two parts understanding other people and eight parts understanding yourself.

There's an extent to which 'I can only follow my own reads!' is a ubiquitous thought process but it's also sort of wrong. If you know that you have inconsistent reads you shouldn't be playing chicken with town to force your hands. After every game people should be going back and looking through what worked and what didn't, both so that they can improve their reads in the future but also so they can understand what sorts of triggers are how consistent. You should know more than just that you're scumreading someone, you should know that you're scumreading someone based on X and this has been Y accurate in the past, and if its something you're consistent at you should double down on it and if not and you don't get support quickly, then you should let it go. You don't get better at mafia without trying to rigorously improve yourself. The most important part of any mafia game is postgame when you go back and analyze the game flow and what impact you had on it.

The most important thing now is to learn from why you felt you scumread me and to understand where you went wrong and how to prevent it from happening in future games.

[RadiantCowbells]

No, they didn't.

I asked Mhsmith0 to extend deadline if they get prodded again.

[RadiantCowbells]

Usually you try to express some sort of opinion.

I think that Red is less likely to be scum than LUV.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am also inclined to suggest that Sandro is town because I have a feeling of deja vu and that I've had this exact argument with people from that era and had them be town before.

[RadiantCowbells]

{RC, Inferno, Sunlit}
{Sando, Aviqf}
{Sunset!Slot}
{Creature, RedFlavor}
{LUV}

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature I'm really not used to you having zero input on the direction that the town goes.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sunlit, what's your read on creature in as much detail as possible?

Vice versa as well please

[RadiantCowbells]

I do actually think it could easily be scumteam behaviour.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sunlit please promise me that you're town

[RadiantCowbells]

@RC

RC, why are you reading creature as scum again? Because he usually provides more town input?
So there is some agreement that Red is scummy. LUV is just MORE scummy. Right?

I actually want some time to think right now since I've been pretty tunneled myself. I will get back to you with a clearer answer.

Sunlit will you still be around in like an hour and a bit?

[RadiantCowbells]

It's weird but I don't think it's necessarily scummy read if you understand that he's coming from a place of trying to find moral superiority over me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sando you're conflating me actually appealing to authority with me talking like I have authority. Which I feel like I do, but obviously that view of myself doesn't resonate well with you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Did you ever promise me that you were town?

[RadiantCowbells]

That doesn't mean that you're town though, unless it spreads like an STD.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sunlit if you're town there's not many people who can be scum. You're the only one of my townreads I have any real paranoia of atm

[RadiantCowbells]

Sando, in the same way that you feel that I am appeal to authoritying but I am actually not, you have not expressly stated that you feel that you think you're better because of your playstyle.
But you have repeatedly said things that indicate that you feel that way and looking at your progression on me it's fairly clear to me, whether you recognize it in yourself or not, that your scumread on me comes from a place of trying to prove that you're better than me. You have made a point of indicating several times that you do not respect my authority, you do not want my approval, etc., and what it comes across to me and others as a summary rejection of the 'kids these days!' with our newfangled AtE and whatever. I am not telling you that I am considered one of the best players on this site because I'm trying to change your vote directly, that would be appeal to authority. What I did rather is point out that with my behaviour as it is I am still considered a solid player on site; that the stuff you reject from my play as anti-town adds up to a player who is rather highly respected. And I've gone out of my way to try to bridge the gap with you and explain to you that the stuff you insist is anti-town isn't but I think that in the end you have a sense of innate superiority over me because you feel that 'your way' is better. Do you think everyone who thinks that your read progression is made up is scum or do you think that it's possible that your reads aren't actually borne out of content in thread as much as they are your own personal feelings about things, and that everyone else is picking up on the holes and saying yeah this doesn't make linear sense as a read?

[RadiantCowbells]

So to me, I posted content reads, you completely ignored that, denigrated my reads based PURELY on the fact that they're not the same as yours. And now you're saying that my reads aren't borne out of content? Seriously?

They're not the same as yours plus I have a strong reason to believe that I'm right when your strongest scumread is someone that I know for a fact to be town.
Yes, I do not think your reads are borne out of content.

I made a massive couple of content posts where every read was content driven, which I think is unquestionable? I mean I hadn't interacted with anyone, and the only person I said anything negative about in terms of playstyle was Sheep. Go re-read those if you don't believe me.

I did read those and holes keep being poked in them as I just mentioned and I feel like there is something top down screwing with your reads.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I believe that you believe that your reads are borne out of content, if it helps? Or I wouldn't be scumreading you. But I think you have a chip on your shoulder and its screwing with your interactions with everyone.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like assuming that you're town? Put your self in my point of view as town. Is it not true that I should be immensely skeptical of your reads given that you scumread me?

[RadiantCowbells]

I am townreading you. I have thought that your read was based on what I'm saying here since the very beginning and I think if you follow my posting on you I have made that clear.
Based on what I've said before: I don't see the scum motivation in your play, but your play doesn't exactly make sense, but there's hints that you have a weird complex about playstyles that explain it.

So the simplest answer is what I've described and given how many experiences I've had similar to this I'm willing to say this is one of them.

I don't know how to explain this to you. It'll either make sense to you when you know that I'm town or it won't.

[RadiantCowbells]

In the end it comes down to that you seem to feel that it's impossible that I am a good SE while doing the things that I've done. I can't argue with that.
If you cared enough to dive my past games you would see that nothing here is out of character for my town game.

[RadiantCowbells]

You have a view of the game that's far too simplistic for me. I don't think I've done anything to earn a scumread, does that mean I should think that you're scum?
And regardless of where I was on your list when you started, I figured you would end up voting me and you ended up voting me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm a great townie and a great SE in my opinion.

[RadiantCowbells]

And again, it's pretty forward of you as a self described basically newbie to think that you can make the judgement that I would have to be a bad SE to be town.
Do you really think that you're the arbiter of what a good SE is?

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm aware. I've tried to remove myself from it but I keep getting caught up in it. It's really hard for me as a player to just ignore someone who is voting for me.

[RadiantCowbells]

possibly just vi

also this makes it clearer that he was considering it.
He also townread me and Sunlit, for the record.

Sunlit dies tonight if not protected I guarantee you because she's the only town player who can get some sort of cohesion going tomorrow so protection on her

[RadiantCowbells]

I trust you the most to get Sando and Inferno off of each others throats and onto scum tomorrow if I end up getting lynched.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think that I can change your reads, Sandro, so I don't think that I'll try. This game is 40 pages and it's still day 1, that's too much.

[RadiantCowbells]

Spoiler:

Are you saying that you have me pocketed or that I'm pocketing you?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that the way mafia often works is that people remember things the way that they feel they are.
That is, I think that Inferno feels frustrated by the amount he's been pushed this game and based off of whatever meta push sticking with him feels that meta has been a larger part of the push on him that it has.
Which is another way of saying something that I see as the cardinal rule of mafia: disagreements, even if one person is demonstrably correct, are not scummy.

He feels he's been unjustly pushed and targets meta mentally, he remembers you as pushing him off meta a lot, you say no I didn't push meta at all, he finds you pushing meta and throws it at you.

[RadiantCowbells]

p-edit @ RC's quote: oh I see. Don't know why you think that?

I don't think that leading town requires you to play like certain people do and lead a glorious charge, necessarily. As long as you have the right reads and gradually convince people you're doing your job. I don't see you as a hard leader but I do see you as a person who adds a lot of town win equity, as evidenced by me immediately trying to team up when I joined the game

[RadiantCowbells]

When I say I'm worried about you I mean that I think there's a 10% chance that you're scum whereas the rest of my townreads I'm like pretty damn certain are town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Saul was never lynchworthy and you're just trying to find an excuse to leave your vote on me and refuse to engage with the game.

[RadiantCowbells]

In no universe can what you've been doing be called engaging.

[RadiantCowbells]

Because leading town requires both being town and being able to get town to lynch scum and I don't trust anyone else to be able to do the latter even if they have an 100% chance of being the former.

Do you think that there's some sort of scum play here revolving around me flattering you until I get a scum win?

[RadiantCowbells]

That's true! But I also, as town, flatter people either that I like or when I want them to townread me, and in this case both of the above are true.

[RadiantCowbells]

go tell everyone you meet about how I'm kinda obvious mafia

[RadiantCowbells]

Mod note: deadline will freeze if thavneet hits prod range in four hours

[RadiantCowbells]

No, we'll get it extended to like 3 days or something.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why would you die fucking lol

Okay I can lunch redflavour as well I think

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature come the fuck on.

If you're scum you're scum but you as a player have one of the lowest standards for townreads in existence and you can't even put that into this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

If he's scum with me then my being town makes him not scum, correct?

Just making sure we agree on that.

[RadiantCowbells]

Navneet: I've noticed that you've only got reads on the people who contributed a significant amount to the thread.

Do you not think it's possible that you don't have reads on LUV and Redflavor because they've contributed less because they're scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

LIke and this is really huge: you're focusing on making reads on the people who have advanced the gamestate. You're comparing me and Sandro because we're the big players.

But don't you think it's likely that we're the big players because we're town and that LUV and Redflavor, whom you seemingly have no read on, have contributed absolutely fucking nothing of value to the thread because they're scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you're doing town a massive disservice if you're town by deciding that me and Sandro need to be removed. We have 3 votes for LUV. If you saw desperate townie in me, you and Sunlit is a lynch on LUV.

When we get a scumflip Sandro will fall in line.

[RadiantCowbells]

You'll never get scum making the easy play because scum make sure they aren't the easy play. I didn't have to claim VT, it did nothing besides hurt my standing. I am not inexperienced enough to know that; I claim PR when my slot is at risk as scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

You seem to think that lynching me as town is better than lynching town LUV. does the fact that he is going off of a scale read on an 11 poster with no real contribution to the thread not say that he's a low risk Lynch? What do you think the real risk is, me and Sandro continuing a one way fight or getting rid of the person who has spent the entire game trying to scumhunting?

Because it's insulting for you to say that lynching me is the safe play.

[RadiantCowbells]

I can't really say anything other than that your approach is horrible and I'm not just saying that because it suggests lynching me. Don't do it in the future

[RadiantCowbells]

Sandro you've chosen at every turn to believe that I'm scum lying as opposed to knowing things you don't know. And that's understandable.

But learn from what I've said.

[RadiantCowbells]

And given your reads versus inferno, you should not be calling anyone's play horrendous.

[RadiantCowbells]

I responded when you asked for my opinion. Your last post was incredibly snide and arrogant, please stop projecting.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I have talked to you so much.

You cannot fault my effort to reach you.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'll ask the game mod as well how they feel about my lynch in postgame.
I could justifiably say a lot harsher things about this game than I have.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not lashing out at anyone. I'm explaining what your issue is and trying to make sure that we win later in the game despite my Lynch.

You're taking it personally and seeing me lashing out because you see me being correctly critical of your play as me being critical of you as a person. My wincon involves making you play differently so I will try to make you play differently. I am sorry that that upsets you but I don't think I have done anything remotely untoward and in fact think given how much vitriol you've thrown at me I have dealt with you extremely cordially.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're 100% ignoring content and going straight for the emotional response now RC, I'm done engaging with you. Even with thenav you completely ignored his actual post and went straight at what he hadn't posted.

I cannot argue with his content in the sense that based on the assumptions underlying his play his move is correct. Instead I am criticizing the ideology that leads him to support a mislynch.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you don't think my presence is helpful then vote me.

[RadiantCowbells]

And dude I see my obligation to be a good SE as higher priority than doing the optimal play. Someone got upset by my play so I changed it. I don't know what you think you want.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you feel like I'm talking down to you,?

[RadiantCowbells]

*sigh*

Yes the extra time made town play better. Please stop encouraging newbies to hammer people who have 11 posts.

There is no way in hell that you sincerely feel that a player who made 11 posts over a reasonable timeframe merits being lynched.

[RadiantCowbells]

It hasn't helped

your scum wincon

at all, no. But if you think this isn't a game that a lot of people are going to learn a shit load from then you're out of your mind.

[RadiantCowbells]

Rofl.

If I was scum how do you think it's even remotely imaginable that the experience of successfully lynching Scum!RC on the merits of RC's play rather than a random predecessor isn't going to be something people learn from?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think there's a lot of broadly applicable things to be learned here about how wagon development works, how legitimate reads work vs scum pushes, even just through comparison

like the fact that I am so controversial as a read strongly suggests I'm town. The people defending me are way defending me, the people against me are way against me. Scum are usually on the middle for their buddies; no one really fits as my scumpartner. And this is generally applicable to a lot of games because rarely do scum actually bus or hard defend their buddies in the newbie queue.

Also how profoundly wrong it is to lynch the proactive players early in the game, the whole interaction between me/Sandro being TvT, Sandro specifically everything he'll learn from my town flip, the process Aviqf and Inferno went through in terms of learning to recognize I was town, even just how I've approached the game in terms of trying to sway people to my side and maintaining pressure on you/Creature/Redflavour. Despite you as an IC doing your best to discourage any real discussion for people to recognize each other, which while absolutely supportive of your wincon is still super gross!

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay. Then vote LUV and let Creature decide the day. Lynch Creature if he votes wrong, he has more than enough information to not mislynch me here.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why shoot the other?

1st of all: you know full well there is not a vigilante in the newbie setup and if you don't you shouldn't be ICing.
2nd: why are you saying shoot the other like you know I'm going to be lynched and flip town? If I were to flip scum, why shoot you?

Unless it's not a mislynch. I'm fence sitting because I want to vote you out based solely on the self vote WIFOM maneuver, but if I'm wrong it'll be a disaster for the game. I haven't actually said that so far because frankly if you went after me like you went after Sando, I would replace out.

I'm sorry but I expect better of you.

[RadiantCowbells]

AtE won't work right now. You can criticize my play post game.

Is this a scumclaim?

[RadiantCowbells]

No, it's a straight forward knock it off with the "I expected better of you."

I don't know what else to say if you're town.

If it's what it takes to get you to vote LUV, can you do it as a personal favor to me?

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not willing to say I willing to say that I would never ask that as scum but I have never done so in the past and don't expect to do so in the future.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sando, I have a question. Do you have any relatives of different political affiliations than you?