Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Ranmaru]

Hello Shea, Gamma, Postie, Action Dan, LQ, CES, nice to see you all again. Nice to meet everyone else. I will catch up tonight after work. I am glad to be a part of this.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Page 1-10

Huh, that was pretty easy.
VOTE: Postie
I'm a little curious if you're intentionally obvscum
Might be worth lynching even if intentional though

I don't like the beginning for Llamarble, but I can understand it if it is what I think it is, trying to get things rolling.

that's posturing if i've ever seen it.

VOTE: llamarble

I can see why you would think that.

To be clearer: why is your reaction not a) asking Llamarble what he's talking about, or b) voting me to put extra pressure on me?

This is where I think you start to go wrong, Postie. His post doesn't seem genuine at the start, I would have voted him for it, without asking a question. I think it's situational, sometimes you ask a question to clarify an issue, sometime you feel strongly about the post that you just skip that part and simply vote and state a suspicion. Question to you here is, why should it be either of option a) or b) rather then c) Voting with reasoning. I do like your effort though, it is genuine and it reminds me of our previous game. I kind of check out from that conversation between NSG and Postie after that, not as interested. So far, I did like NSG's reaction to Llama.

Two votes instead of one creates more pressure and more focused pressure.

Again, I felt there was no reason to. Why add a vote to a player who you feel scum might be lazily voting already. I do agree that two votes is better so there could be early wagons, but you didn't deserve that many at the time. If you feel you have a better lead, go for it instead of just bandwagoning. Now if there was no better lead, sure bandwagon to help scum have incentive to join so you can sniff them out later.

Agreed.

Vote: 'marble

Why did you vote Marble here?

Don't like this post. In general, town is best served by existing the RVS as quickly as possible. So often times town pushes in RVS ARE ridiculous on face and ARE forced. I would expect a town player who is earnestly attempting to create information to read much the same as a scum player who is trying to "fake it" because definitionally we have no information to attack.

I don't see why voting Llamarble over Postie in that situation would stagnate RVS, allowing her to hide if she wanted. Is bandwagoning a priority to voting someone you feel has a slightly better chance to be scum then the bandwagon target? I like to shoot from the hip, so if I see a post like Llama's, I attack hard and that can also gain reactions and progress the game, no?

LQ is it weird that I responded to a thought you had and then you stated you were caught up and that you were open for questions but completely ignored that like the LAST POST had been a thought directed at you?

Or is it just me that I think that's weird.

Asking for four friends.

I like this post. It shows that LQ was more interested in focusing on my slot rather then consider your anecdote with Llamarble. Which, he should care about and consider if he thinks Llama's post had no point. He tells you your thoughts but it's too late, it's after you implied that he didn't really care to consider it.

Don't like how fast the Marquis wagon got going, especially when not everyone has even checked in yet (as far as I am aware).

Making it harder for scum to just ease into the game seems like a good thing to me. What downside do you see to the Marquiswagon?

So, I start to notice this trend you are having. You are focusing on debating with LQ here instead of pushing for your scumread on Llamarble, which I still don't know why you are still pushing.

i think her forced line of questioning is more likely to come from scum than town, so she's a scumlean for now.

I have seen her do that as town lover. That's her playstyle, I think. I haven't seen her play as scum though, yet I feel she is being genuine here, just wrong.

Pretty confident on Eddie Fenix and lq being town

Why?

tchill are you scum dude? I don't want to let nsg go because they just disappeared without doing anything to dispel that read but also I think you might be scum.

I think you are wrong on NSG. Earlier on I noticed you voted her for wifom but that's null to me. Plus I disagree with the other reasoning in that same post, since I can understand her mindset. With Tchill, I notice he is responding to people which is easier then fleshing out his stances on who he believes is scum. He hadn't really gone into that, nor did he seem to care to. Sort of like he's posting in thread with easy things to have a presence, while not really doing much. It's similar to CES, who lacks presence, and isn't pushing his scumread either. (Note that they both respond to LQ's sentiments about Marquis's wagon taking off too quickly, which is another comment that seems easy to do)

Let's us know early she's voting weurgts but moves it to marquis shortly after voting weurgts a second time.

The post about the 2 reactions you "should" have pinged me.

I don't understand why this deserves a vote. If I ever feel my lead is exhausted, I move on to lurkers and pressure them to post, next best thing, until I find a stronger lead. This is more null to me. I already explained that the second point seems more genuine, not fueled with scum intent.

Going here to see what happens:

VOTE: chill

Like Eddie, I'm wondering why you voted Chill here.

Was planning to just vote LQ despite Marquis still being a decent place to hang out, but these two give me enough pause not to bother yet.
Still, LQ is an approved wagon for now, I'm just not confident enough in it to push it.
Sell me on these from LQscum. It should be easy, I've halfway sold myself in pedit.

I don't really see much of a direction from LQ. He is missing good questions. See no point in his post on Marq having a wagon grow, no purpose behind that can progress a town win-con.

You don't think his catch-up-style entry to the game felt forced? I'm assuming he's used to a spammier meta than we are and catching up on a 4/5 page game seems weird to me. Achieving a natural game entry as scum is generally not trivial, especially given the Marquiswagon, and this seems like an affectation that would let him sidestep the essential difficulty.

Why are you arguing with Llama instead of voting Tchill here if you think his catch up is forced? I don't really feel you have any solid ground to be voting Llama here. Seems like you are being reserved. Why are you lacking presence this game?

Llamarble is obviously putting all the attention on himself to rile up opportunistic scum. CES immediately jumps on it. I don't like Llamarble talking himself up on a personal level - it's pretentious - so why does he post it? It's because anyone that would actually raise an issue with it is crippled, reaching for low hanging fruit.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

I only really like the vote. CES does not feel like opportunistic scum to me, more like conservative scum that lacks presence, that isn't really scumhunting.

Also I'm not wild about the fact that your first instinct was to attack me instead of trying to figure out what I meant. As town when someone says something to me that on face doesn't make sense my first reaction is generally to try to clarify, not to fos them.

I find it to be more misguided then scum, and it's sort of what I expect from Gamma. What I have found is that as scum / anti-town he would not be as interested. I'm not for lynching Gamma at this point.

Here is pages 1-10. I am going to continue with the next 20 pages. It will most likely take me double the time, expect two more posts from me tonight.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: 11-20

I disagree I guess. Frequently when I'm reading through a game I note things and end up with a list of things that bear no relation to each other. Its not because I'm "switching methodologies" or whatever, its that my methodology is reading the posts and seeing what things stick out to me. For instance, if I player I know well is playing very differently from how I would expect them to I take note of it, but I would also take note of posts by that player that seem to have town motivation behind them. I think most people play this way? I don't want to get too far down the theory rabbit hole but this is game relevant so I do want to talk about it

I agree with you here. It's exactly what I'm doing now, responding to what sticks out to me.

He also notes that LQ is quick (heh) to pump the breaks on marquis when there isn't really any reason too

(wagon deflation? buddying? Genuine town alarm at the growth of the wagon? could be any of these.)

He likes CES calling it out.

I noted the statement, I felt it was more of him trying to say something he thinks town would say. Again, I feel there was really no point to it. I don't think CES was calling him out.

Tell reck I don't have the signature I have fo no reason. And there's no way he can understand that quote by Nacho because reck has never played a single game with me.

This isn't really a response. How does being a non-traditional player relate to what Reck accused you of, pumping the breaks on Marquis when you had no marked reason or progression to?

I am so confused. You said you had a problem with me and said you thought I was shifting the goal posts and then I wrote a response to that to try to explain where my head was at. I would have thought you to at the very least be interested in that response? Idk. I have a hard time figuring out what you're doing most of the time so fuckin' just ignore me I guess I'll be over in this corner babbling like an idiot.

Tells me that he has no interest in sorting you, only in giving you shade. You state issues with him not responding to you earlier, so this feels like he is omgusing you (not really, more like pre-emptive omgus), which is similar to my scum play in Mafia on the Run. (Where I have no idea where to really push, so when Vecna pushes me I push back much harder and somehow get a stance out of that) He doesn't have a pro-town mindset because he wants town to see you shifting the goal posts but doesn't care to talk about you stating that you are just not sure how to discuss his confusing play.

Postie is leaning entirely too much on "my teammates think this and this" It's like she's detaching herself from the game. Also, this is totally what she would be doing as scum here I bet. I'm scumreading her.

Why scum and not town? Do you have meta with her scumwise? I disagree with your Postie vote.

Unpopular opinion: I think Gamma's town.
The vote here and the way he questions TSQ's motives in this post and the ones following feels like it comes from a place of genuine frustration at not being understood.

I have seen him burst into frustration as town before. It sometimes gets him lynched, like in The Thing Mafia (which I repress into my brain). I agree with this sentiment.

Having

CES

, TSQ, Postie all be town, seems lucky but I guess it's not far from 50%

Why is CES Town to you?

VOTE: EddieFenix

Also can we take a moment to discuss the hot garbage that is EddieFenix's ISO
It's just a bunch of sitting back and saying things from the sidelines or am I missing something here

Nothing really pinging me for him, he's sort of null to me. Wouldn't bat an eye if he died though, but I'd rather others die over him.

'Marble, why do you consider Marquis to be the towniest of the three lurkers {Dunnstral, wgeurts, Marquis} when his posts have a) been scummier and his lurking has been more in the style of a scumbag?

Vote: Marquis

Can you elaborate? I don't see it.

So what you're saying is the fact I picked it out means I should have noticed what you thought I should? I guess that's fair, but I guess I was just in tunnel vision.
As for Sauce, I feel like it's a general thing about the way he posts. Another person I feel is one of those "annoying but readable" types is Ramcius.
wrt TSQ, Are you saying the missing of the unvote was towny or that it helped you sort him?

Also Dunn I kinda want to know why you're voting Postie, which is kinda a faded wagon, over me, who has been more contentious currently.

I like the tone of this post, and his willingness to concede.

Didn't Marquise say they were going to be around today? What happened there? And their wagon is now collapsed. I expect some good posts from Marqu.

I would understand your feeling here if you were having trouble generating reads, but it seems you already had some leads. You didn't really do anything with your Tchill vote.

VOTE: marquis

So this vote, it shows me you aren't really trying to sort people. You stick

I think Chill is still very much within his Scum range, is the TL;DR version.

Chill is good at blending in as Scum and tends to make his reads match what benefits him at the time he makes those reads. If someone is TRing him, he may TR them back. If it looks like a Townie is taking pressure, he may throw shade on them. Basic Scum play 101, but he does it in a way that doesn't look too opportunistic and generally gives just enough reason for the reads so people don't question his reads. I said as much in a different game I played with him.

This is the most I have seen you talk about Chill's play here. Yet in your #199 you don't state Chill in a reads list. You then FOS Shea, then you wonder where Marquis is at. Then this:

VOTE: marquis

You vote Marquis, but don't give a reason for leaving Tchill. You never really attack Tchill, you only interact with him after he responds to you. I want to know why you haven't gone into his actual play this game, rather then hedging around him.

Marquis is actually just in danger of being straight up replaced.

That wouldn't be the first time that's happened to a lurkerscum I was wagonning. (It could reasonably be the last time but that's neither here nor there.)

Marquis

is scummy

and I'm certainly not going to let the fact that he's lurking work to his defense. Scum do it and they do it often. Because it works.

CES, it seems like you are responding to this to dissuade people from letting a replacement come in for people to get a read on him instead of just straight up wagoning and lynching him.

Honestly I have seen so many Scum use the argument "No, don't go after lurkers, it's pointless" This is not a Town mindset to have because at what point DO we go after lurkers? If we don't go after lurkers today, then when? Because lurkers hurt Town really really badly late game.

We lynch scum. Lurking is null. If you have any content to read them by, use that. I don't see anything suspicious from Marquis. Also, better to go for lurker D2 if you have suspicious leads D1, for information and connections.

Can you trim down the fucking quote walls guys

I agree, please trim them, Gamma and LQ come to mind. Gamma I have told you this before too.

TChill + Lycan + AD
Will check if they've done associative tells tomorrow. Now sleep.

I'm not feeling Lycan or AD. Although I would like a vote from AD.

Well I just iso'ed her. I just missed that interaction tbh. Plain and simple truth.

Not reading closely enough.

I think Marquis wagon didn't really have a reason to fall apart and I'm not swayed either way by any of their posting, I'd get that going again (I don't really agree with the wagon on tchill either)

VOTE: Marquis

I don't really think he's scum. He's like a mirror version of you except you are now starting to get your feet wet. Also there's the self meta / stress thing.

Gamma - Bad vote aside, it reads like a machine shit out 253. A HUMAN BEING would

show dejection

of being so obviously wrong- they would feel silly, frustrated, or otherwise upset, and from that alone we could observe that

all actions

that came from that premise were as so. Instead Gamma sits there and writes "

I

see that

you

are right

, and

I no longer FoS you

." Compare this to Shea who has real moments of pausing and doubt, real flaws that he doesn't admit and may not even be conscious of. The "bus vote" thing being more likely over Dunnstral choosing a name and going out for lunch feels pretty nefarious in motive. LQ points this out, and I don't feel like they're a viable team despite trying to outscum one another on the same page. There's no proverbial lion in the room that necessitates outrunning your fat friend here. incidental.

Llamarble - He may be Llamarble, but I'm not sure if he is righteous...

No actually he can be quite stubborn, he embraces it.

what were your motivations for that conversation with me? it felt like you were trying to see if you could poke around and find traction to start getting a wagon on me, but no one jumped on it so you abandoned it and moved on. you've thrown a lot of shade my way but have avoided attacking me directly. I think that's kind of what lycan was getting at, and I think its pretty clearly true.

so I'll ask you this: are you scum reading me, and if so: why arent you voting me?

Agreed.

@cogito ergo sum, who are you scumreading and why?

---

I like this. I know CES is a concise player, one I want to emulate in the future, but she has to repeat herself and he doesn't respond. Shows he isn't really scumhunting as I would expect.

You realized you've put your own spin on my motivation without considering things like how I approach the game in general right? Does no one read wiki's anymore? You know I go by Quick, go read that wiki to find out why I am pressing you.

I am not necessarily SRing you, no. I am trying to get a read on you and poking you is one way to do that. I consider you Null at this point in time. Last time I gave you a TR you ended up being Scum so I am not as quick to label you as Town this time around. I'll have to review what people said after I threw some accusations your way.

Lycan uses a lot of colorful wording, but there is a disconnect between what he is representing with enough solid backing that I think he is just creating stories for motivation instead of looking at all possibilities.

It doesn't read like you are trying to get a read on Shea. If you were you would have completed the earlier conversation he asked you about re: Reck and his separate methods of coming to reads. I don't think referring us to your wiki is a valid defense, you haven't really explained your actions in game.

lol i've put off reading this game to the point where i still want to play but know if i say i don't want to read ppl are going to be like "replace out then" w me being too selfish to care

skrew is the only teammate who's been trying to follow along and has most ppl null, llamarble aggressively null, and gamma slightly scummy for ??? (which i agree with based on skimming and sparse content memories but again want to re-sort the whole thing). will ask him to follow up

some1 ask me qs / point me to things to look at so i can get a jumping off point. diving > bellyflopping

At this point I don't really get any scum intent from Marquis's posts. He isn't really contributing, but he doesn't seem to be progressing a scum win condition either.

I am going back here for the time being:

VOTE: Chill

Why are you going back here again?

Mostly how this is working is that I am kinda doing my own thing with this game and the others are working on their games together. It's just the way it worked out. I have asked them a couple questions about this game, but for the most part, I am working alone here and my teammates are working together on the other ones. I am mostly there to take care of keeping things in context so they don't get carried away with going too far off course in thinking about being strategic in how to approach things. I am basically the guy who is taking a big picture, stand back approach and just trying to keep them on course.

What is the point of you guys being in a team in team mafia then if you are playing solo? It's like playing solo q when you are in a team, which means no synergy.

I think this game has become too lopsided. Lots of people voting a single lurker for being a lurker (Marquis) with most people on the wagon having little demonstrated reason for being there. Then you have most of the active players who are fighting amongst themselves mostly and a lot of people who have very little content who are getting by with not doing a whole lot of anything. The state of the game isn't a good one for Town currently - especially considering that a lot of people have expressed that they are Scum read me, whom I consider myself to generally be a Town leader when I am Town. I cannot yet tell who or how many Scum players are going to try and actively push my lynch, but there will most certainly be Scum on my lynch if it happens, so look at those on my wagon upon my lynch.

Homie you were literally voting for that lurker ONE PAGE AGO. With NO EXPLANATION YOURSELF. Literal naked vote. Then you jumped on another wagon without demonstrating or explaining any sort of scum read there. WHY are you voting TChill? WHY did you vote marquis? People aren't scum reading you because you're mechanical, they're scum reading you because you don't seem to care who is lynched and because you're not telling us what your reads are and not explaining them. In the absence of information, what the hell else am I supposed to think?

This is a good post.

And I know why people are Scum reading me. I think Lycan hit on this point and so did Postie a bit.

It's because people are interpreting my play as "mechanical" and for some reason they thing this means I am Scum. Instead, I would say I am trying to play in a logical way with a big picture outlook on the game. That means I am not going to get into specifics of relating what Player X did at point A and compare that to what Player Y did at Point B. I have never played that way so if people expect me to play that way, I am sorry to say that they will be disappointed.

How I play is looking at posts in isolation and seeing if they are internally logical insofar of what I know to be logical comparing this to what I think is the correct way to play

. I sometimes compare a post they made somewhat recently to what they are saying, but I am not going to remember something that someone said on page 5 at this point. I will, however, ISO players occasionally and I will usually do this if someone asks me to.

Bold Underlined, what have you ISO'd about Tchill and Marquis?

VOTE: tsq

Did you ISO TSQ here? This seems like omgus again. He has a problem with your play, and you seem to misrepresent his argument. If you misunderstood and explained why you misunderstood, it would be fine but you ignore the fact that it may have been, and you vote Shea.

Here's the next ten pages (with a few quotes from previous pages because I had to go backwards to understand things better). I'm going to catch up with the next ten pages, then give reads and a vote.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: 21-30

You are impressing me with how stupid you are.

Why are you resorting to insults here? You are just sniping him with insults to undermine his position as universal town read.

LQ still looks town to me. Lots of posts I've glossed over admittedly and I probably could use to recheck my read there, but I don't see the scummitude others do.

Can you do that please? Also can you move your vote from Gamma. I don't think he's scum. Give me two scum picks bro.

I still don't know where CES stands in his reads this game and don't know why he thought Marquis was scummy to begin with earlier before the lurking.

Yeah, things aren't really going quite as planned; I thought things would develop more helpfully. The main reasons I found Marquis scummy very early on were 1) his general awkward tone early on and 2) the whole "representative" affectation. I think Signs and Void from last Team Mafia is pretty important context here - his early posts here feel really similar. I think both of those things are more significant than his lurking although his lurking has also felt scum-motivated (but I'd be more hard-pressed to explain the nuts and bolts of that feeling).

You never really explained your early scumread on Marbles. 1) I don't see how an awkward tone would mean it leans towards scum indicative. 2) I thought the representative thing was funny, but don't understand why you find it suspicious. Can you explain those two points?

VOTE: wgeurts

yeah i should have took my vote off postie apologies for that.

This shows that you aren't really caring to scumhunt, just give the appearance that you are.

Eddie, GE, why aren't you voting?

I wonder why you don't ask this question more often. (A good question to ask though)

any particular reason for voting the person being replaced? by the way, tchill has been active elsewhere on site but not here.
VOTE: tchill

As I was following the game I noticed this too. I wondered why he wasn't getting back to defend himself, while I constantly see his posts in other mafia games.

CES -

50/50 on Town/Null

Why is CES town/null?

"6 suspects" / "no CES" in post 430.

Nobody gets upset with someone that gives 11 towns 2 nulls in a mini. They might get upset with which reads fall onto certain people. Saying I can't find >3 people scummy at any given time is disingenuous. I placed a big-ass disclaimer at the beginning of my post that I didn't care about calling a team, working with a theory, and that I was going to put town or scum on everyone. Deal with it. Regarding the lack of CES, if you look closely I spell out "Vote CES" if you apply the Fibonacci sequence to every paragraph.

.... No, seriously, CES is clearly on my mind when I put Tchill in scum territory just for discounting the possibilities of CES. My first point was something I couldn't make heads or tails of, so he landed there purely as a result of my second point. All I was doing was making reads off of interesting developments within 3-4 pages. Deal with it.

:good posting: CES is also on my mind. I have nothing new to add, still lack of presence, not really scumhunting as much because he feels the thread hasn't developed, when it has developed plenty. The game state has been pretty laid back and I am to assume scum are playing it safe.

@lycanfire 606: I was engaging ef,not defending him. shade noted though.

VOTE: LQ
At this point I believe LQ is trying to make the people on his wagon look bad by challenging their opinions.

I agree, good vote.

the way you're challenging them feels like you just want to make them look bad, not that you care to help them

I like this too.

I feel I am doing that by showing them they are wrong. Look, this is pretty standard behavior for me as any alignment. I fight my SR's on me. You can look at pretty much any game and if I am SR then there is a really really good chance that I operate exactly how you are seeing me operate in this game.

It doesn't seem that way to me. You aren't trying to sort them, nor try to get them to see that they are wrong. You are trying to get them off your back, and then when it doesn't work, you vote them. Otherwise, you insult them. That doesn't work if you want to show people that they are wrong.

above post seems like a pretty bizarre overreaction. Forced?

Not beyond the norm for Gamma.

I assume you're asking about the second sentence since the VC should be self-evidently bad with the votes spread across 9 different people.

With Tchill, I see like 2 things that feel definitely scummy to me (the faux catch-up at the start, #212), some big picture "lack of scumhunting"-scumminess but then you also have his off-the-wall theory about Postie being coached (especially in the context of him disavowing team mafia-based theories) which is a nice town tell. It looks to me like a wagon driven by relatively crude heuristics.

What do you think of Tchill avoiding this game and posting in others right now? How does that affect your read on him?

Unvote, vote: Postie

No.

I'm going to hard no sir a postie lynch today.

Same.

Yeah ok.
VOTE: Tchill
My guess going into Night One is Tchill CES AD. Gamma has done a few things that do me a concern but overall is still probably town.
(although AD's "I doubt Chess would give a different read on Eddie" gives me a reservation there, so probably just CES next if Tchillscum)

Let's let Tchill say something before hammer, maybe he's just waiting for his moment to obvtown, but I don't see a better lynch for today.

I don't see scum in AD. More like AD being wrong.

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

No.

Sup Ranmaru.

I can't begin to express how happy I am that you are not vonflare.

Thanks. Nothing much. Nice to meet you.

Spoiler: Reads

Ranmaru

TSQ - Good presence in thread, most active and scumhunting.

POSTIE - Consistent scumhunting since early game, even though some of it is misguided, it is also what I have experienced with town postie.

Gamma - I like his recent contributions to the thread. His frustration seems normal to me. As scum he loses interest and doesn't put that much effort into cases, he kind of lurks until he's wagoned for not doing anything at all, and then makes excuses. He also has good tone here.

Llamarbles - I like his presence as well, although not not as present as TSQ. Yet it compliments him and I can agree to some of his reads. Hey look see Llama, that last game we played in years ago was a fluke.

Lycan - I liked his analysis on CES, and his reads. I only really like his push on CES, though.

NSG - I like her persistence in questioning CES on his scumreads, and I liked her early game response to Llama, it would be similar to what I would have done.
Dunnstrals - I like that he is getting into the game at this point. Don't know why he was less present in early game.
AD - I kind of need a vote from AD to get a better feel on him.

MARQUIS - null, I don't see scum intent but want a bit more from him
WSGEURTS - null not even here
EDDIE - null but can see what postie is saying, just doesn't stick out to me as much as T L C. Don't want no scrubs.

Tchill - Seems to post in thread for the appearance of being present, without any solid analysis. Weird vote on WGEURTZ and weird apology, which signifies guilt. Avoiding the game while playing others, and gives no indication of why.

CES - Lacks presence. Isn't scumhunting in early to mid day. Most recent votes are bad. Trying hard to avoid Tchill wagon, doesn't comment on the fact Tchill is avoiding the thread pretty hard.

LQ - Scum for omgusing Shea, and developing a read on him without being proactive. Instead he was being reactive, and isn't trying to sort him. He also misses important questions and does not try to answer them. His votes don't make sense.

[LQ > CES > Tchill > Eddie]

Vote: LQ

[Ranmaru]

I think we should lynch LQ today, and we can get good connections to others like CES and Tchill. Again, LQ has omgused shea and developed a read on him in a reactive manner, not a proactive manner. He isn't trying to sort Shea, and he hasn't analyzed Tchill when he voted him, he resorted to meta instead. He's been hedging around him, falling back on his vote on Tchill, Marq, Tchill, then Shea, etc. I don't believe that his team mates are also not helping him, because this is also a team game, doesn't make sense to go all solo. I think anything else right now is a distraction, and I really dislike CES's votes on Postie and Gamma.

Lynch LQ Today

, and sleep soundly. I work evenings most of the week but luckily I have off Thursday and Friday. We don't have much time left, let's not flounder around. I am going to sleep, sorry for quadruple post.

[Ranmaru]

PLEASE PbPA. I love walls, just ask Gamma in my response to their GIANT. SPOILER.

I hate you. Your wall destroyed the previous page, I don't think your wall is healthy and you should stop making it so long.

Not Voting (3): Davsto, EddieFenix, LicketyQuickety

I want you guys to keep your votes in play.

Also Ranmaru a quick update to help you stay with the times: wgeurts got replaced by Davsto

Thank you, I'm going to re-read what he said. Care to vote LQ with me? Thoughts on CES and AD?

[Ranmaru]

Quote for emphasis

I think we should lynch LQ today, and we can get good connections to others like CES and Tchill. Again, LQ has omgused shea and developed a read on him in a reactive manner, not a proactive manner. He isn't trying to sort Shea, and he hasn't analyzed Tchill when he voted him, he resorted to meta instead. He's been hedging around him, falling back on his vote on Tchill, Marq, Tchill, then Shea, etc. I don't believe that his team mates are also not helping him, because this is also a team game, doesn't make sense to go all solo. I think anything else right now is a distraction, and I really dislike CES's votes on Postie and Gamma.

Lynch LQ Today

, and sleep soundly. I work evenings most of the week but luckily I have off Thursday and Friday. We don't have much time left, let's not flounder around. I am going to sleep, sorry for quadruple post.

---

@

Marquis

: Can you move your vote? It's not really doing much on NSG. Give me a read on LQ, Eddie, and CES. Then tell me how you'd feel joining a LQ wagon.
@

ActionDan

: Can you re-check LQ for me? After reading my #819 and his ISO, would you care to join his wagon with me?
@

CES

: Why did you vote Marble in your #68? If you answered that, can you quote/link? Also, can you respond or quote/link answer to my response to your #526?
@

TSQ

: I want you to join LQ with me if the wagon builds up, since I know you also find him suspicious.
@

LQ

: The thing is, I don't get any pings from players like WGEURTZ or DUNN, etc. I am not going to force a read simply to have a unique view point. What matters is that we are on the

right

track, not that I abandon it simply to better my image of 'having a unique' read. Why aren't you voting? Also, give me your two most recent town games and scum games. You state I misrepresent your intent, tell me what your actual intent is and how I am misunderstanding it. I also asked you some questions in my catch up, those are also helpful for me to sort you. Please answer them. (Like, why is Ces Null/Town?)
@

Tchill

: Vote LQ.
@

Postie

: Can you give a case on Eddie, short and sweet? Also, recent thoughts on LQ?
@

Llamarble

: Talk to me a bit more about LQ. Why is he like, null-scum to you (since he's like right after your null line).

[Ranmaru]

LQ, I would expect a town player to back up what they are saying, and you don't seem to want to. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on whether or not you should answer my questions. You say you want people to understand you, answering my questions is a great way for me to have a better understanding of your slot. I'll leave it at that.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you, I'll read those. Why aren't you voting right now? Why is CES null-town? Finally, how am I misrepresenting you?

[Ranmaru]

@

LQ

: Can you explain how the motivation I am ascribing isn't there point by point? I don't see CES shaking things up. He seems more conservative/reserved until recently. How do you feel about his early Marble vote? Finally, where have you actually posted your reasoning for scum reading Tchill?

@

TSQ

: Fair enough my dude.

[Ranmaru]

LQ I will respond after work. Why are people voting Gamma for one post when I am seeing him post pro-town posts like the above two.

[Ranmaru]

I've said Chill is a meta read. I've played (I think) back to back games where Chill was Scum. Then Dunn dropped the bomb that Chill is a lot more active as Town and that made me feel better about Chill being Scum. But I am still torn on Chill because there is pretty much zero resistance to the Chill wagon. What Llama says about the wagon being primarily Town motivated doesn't make sense if Chill is Scum with the consideration that there is not hardly even a competing wagon to Chill as of last VC.

TBH, I would have to look up where CES voted for Marqu because I don't remember that. The way I see CES shaking things up is in that he has a different perspective that the "dominant" players in this game. He is going up stream instead of going with the flow. So while he has not been a prolific poster, he still has enough content that I would say is "different" than what everyone else is saying to where I think this gives Town +EV if ECS is Town, which is what I am leaning towards.

Why are you only focusing on his meta, and not the in-game play? Also, if you read him by meta, why did you unvote him and come back to him? I said CES's vote on Marble, not Marquiz. Can you look at that and tell me your thoughts? Why is being different and unique enough for you to give a read? Is it that easy to determine alignment? That seems a little too black and white when it comes to reading.

Responses to LickitQuick:
---

#850

1. If Llama's methodology was wrong, why did you insult him instead of just giving him understanding?
2. Thank you for answering, responded above.
3. Note that he said you are trying to shade the people attacking you, which goes back to the omgus point.
4. Again, it doesn't seem that way, when you care more to throw shade at Shea but when he explains his mindset, you don't continue with that conversation, you just want town to react to your play.
5. I've omgused a player as mafia so I could develop a stronger (fake) read on them, and that is what I'm seeing here. #97
#111 Shea's post here is one example of your reactive play. You focus my slot and don't respond to Shea's question when you said you were open to questions, and your response in 111 should have been one that came without prompting. Again, when I was scum, in Ircher's mafia game, I was trying to play pro-town but wasn't proactive trying to buddy, and town leader Grapes, noticed this and asked why I wasn't talking to him even though I was defending him from MaganaofIllusion. Simply, I didn't care, that is the pure reason why I didn't, and that is what I see in you. Examples here: #246 and here: #247 Basically, I was unguarded and he caught me scumming it up.
What tells me you aren't trying to sort him is that you aren't proactively trying to do that, you only do it after the fact. I said your votes don't make sense on Tchill when you weren't being very direct with him, you only gave a meta example and that's it.

#878

1. The thing is, you don't specify who exactly you have a problem with on the Marquis wagon, it's a general statement. Here is the link #121 You also don't give a read on Marquis. It's easy to talk about the wagon but you don't commit to a read on Marquis or anyone on the wagon. Just reads as something you said to seem town, that is all.
2. I bring that up because it seems like you are setting up the opportunity to vote Marquis when he doesn't show up. I don't know why you consider voting him if you didn't like his wagon taking speed originally.
3. I can understand having a hard time gaining reads in the early game, that happens to me sometimes too, yet eventually I find leads and build off them. You haven't really been doing that. Can I have your updated full reads list?
4. Isn't your read on CES black and white, in that you find him null-town simply for being unique? Anyway, it just seems odd that that is the only thing you do say about Chill, and when you vote him, twice, it's without reason. It's fine to give meta but that is all you do here, you don't talk about his play at all, when others have.
5. You can't read scum simply by lurking, though. That's why you pressure them to talk, or wait for a replacement. (Or lynch them, but already stated it's better to do that D2) Correct approach is to vote suspicious players, example would be Tchill who looked suspicious, and had been playing and posting in other games besides this one. I didn't say leave it unattended, I said leave it for D2 and I gave a good reason for why that should be.
6. Since I'm town I know I'd care to finish a conversation to understand the person's mindset, not simply attack them. I'm asking myself if you not responding to Shea in that case is either town motivated or scum motivated, and I lean towards scum motivated because town would try to come to an understanding while scum will simply want to shade, which is what it seems like you were doing.
7. My apologies, that and Splatoon 2 is the only things I can think of when it comes to teams. Even Smash Bros teams. Any team, there is no 'I in team', is what I'm focusing on. I find it odd, but I'm going to drop this point. I can't really read you based on that, but I want to know if they have said anything since then?
8. I don't get why you say you play that way, and then don't actually do it.
9. I already explained why I feel your omgus comes from a scum mindset over a town one, above.

[Ranmaru]

MOD NOTES

Srceenplay and Tchill13 are swapping their respective games.

Why the Swap instead of replacement, Screenplay?

HOW DO YOU KNOW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO KEEP THE SAME READS ALL GAME!!!11!!!1one1

What is the purpose of you yelling here?

#824 is impressively long given that it has ~0 pro-town content in it.

@

CES

: Why did you vote Marble in your #68? If you answered that, can you quote/link? Also, can you respond or quote/link answer to my response to your #526?

I didn't want to place a sixth vote on Marquis at that time and if I wasn't going to place a serious vote, I figured I'd might as well needle 'marble.

As for #526, 1) awkwardness is scummy because townies can just say whatever they're thinking whereas scum have ulterior motive (e.g. don't draw too much attention) straight away. Not the strongest scum tell in general, but pretty solid when applied to early posts before scum have a chance to get their bearings. 2) Re: the representative thing, I think scum do occasionally force some sort of gimmick just to elicit the "why would scum do that?" response; on its own it wouldn't be that scummy but knowing that he did the same thing in the previous Team Mafia when given a Mafia role PM makes it a hell of a lot scummier.

Thank you. Fair enough on the marble vote, how are you reading him now? On Marquiz, is his tone this game similar to other games, or is that more his personality? When it comes to awkwardness, how do you feel about Tchill voting WGEURTZ? With the representative thing here, why is it more likely he does it as scum then town, even though he has done it as scum before?

[Ranmaru]

Not Voting (4): Davsto, Marquis, EddieFenix, LicketyQuickety

Keep your vote in play, or explain why you aren't voting.

@

Ces

: Why are you still voting Gamma? Move your vote.
@

NSG

: Where you at girl. I see you posting in other games, you catching up?
@

Davsto

: How's the catch up going?

[Ranmaru]

Questions about Team Mates

:

CES

: Has Singer said anything about the game? I'm interested in her thoughts.

NSG

: Is KMD saying anything about the game? I really want to know his thoughts, I have played with him before and he's a great neighbor.

LQ

: Has Mulch said anything about the game?

[Ranmaru]

I knew you were going to drop a wall. Anyway, please don't answer questions not directed at you. Instead, let me rephrase. May you please explain why you are not voting? Thank you.

[Ranmaru]

I should re-phrase the question to LQ. Please tell me

why

you yelled in #888.

[Ranmaru]

@

Gamma

: He can answer your question too, alongside mine.

[Ranmaru]

Screenplay

: Are you finished catching up? Also, why did Tchill and you swap instead of him having a replacement?

[Ranmaru]

Got it, I just want you caught up as soon as possible, since we have

4

days left in the day.

[Ranmaru]

Screenplay, have any other reads at the moment?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma talk to me more about Screen play.

[Ranmaru]

I agree, my read hasn't changed either. I just keep getting reminded of Tchill's play and I don't think it can be salvaged.

[Ranmaru]

Tchill was posting in other games while he was still lurking here.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma don't forget, I want you to talk to me about Screen Play.

[Ranmaru]

Alright. My mind hasn't changed, I just want to see his reads list.

[Ranmaru]

Tchill is still posting in other games at this time.

[Ranmaru]

When I say he was posting in other games while lurking in here, I say before I replaced in. NSG noted it too.

[Ranmaru]

LQ can I get a reads list?

[Ranmaru]

I mean an updated reads list. If it hasn't changed, please post the link or quote it.

[Ranmaru]

@

LQ

: Can you talk to me about why you feel WGEURTS 98 was flat?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, what's your read on WGEURTZ/Davsto?

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Updated Reads List

Ranmaru

TSQ - He remains town to me for his consistent pushes, activity, and pro-town posts.
Llamarble - Same, remains pro-town overall, and I like him wanting to stick to Tchill.
LYCAN - I still like Lycan for town. His #430 is a really good one. I do like that he is asking Llama about the absense of choice. Would like an updated reads list.
Postie - She still seems townie to me, the only thing is that she's stuck on Eddie.
Dunnstral - His #587 is good, and his #646 is good. His #793 is good.
AD - I do like Dan's #374 and his #927. Slight town.
NSG - Again, I liked her persistence in asking CES about his scumreads, and her response to Llama. She's lacking presence now though, which is concerning.
Gamma - Gamma, I put a bit lower due to his switch to LQ here. Still overall find him townie and can see a townie reason to switch to LQ but not too sure about his feelings on Screen play.



Marquis - Marquis remains null here for me.
eDDIE - Eddie remains null. Also I hate his avatar too.
LQ - In reviewing, LQ's #98 and #104 are good posts. So, if he is town, then he is playing it sloppy. His play looks like mine in a previous scum game but overall, it seems more like he got off to a bad start.


CES - I still have CES as scum, I don't find his last few votes pro-town. I can see it as him not being able to find scum this game if he is town, as it is likey scum are trying to miss the radar.
Davsto - WGEURTS doesn't seem suspicious, but he did lurk out. Rather WGEURTZ early posts seemed null to me. Davsto seems to be stalling with his catch up, making excuses. As I read his catch up, I don't get any town tells from it. I don't get much scum tells, I just get the feeling him and his predecessor aren't trying to be as present, rather trying to be under the radar. Also, Tchill's vote on WGEURTZ is probably a link between the two if Screenplay/Tchill flips scum.
Screenplay - Tchill remains the overall most suspicious and awkward.

[Screenplay > Davsto > CES > LQ]

Vote: Screenplay

[Ranmaru]

I'm voting Screenplay because I don't think his slot can be salvaged. I still think T-chill was overall weird and apologetic, and his posting seemed like he was posting to have the appearance of being present. I'm down with him being the lynch. Just want to see Davsto, Postie, NSG, and Marquis catch up.

[Ranmaru]

You can catch up while my vote is on you.

[Ranmaru]

Screenplay how far are you in your catch up? Any updated reads?

[Ranmaru]

I stated I wanted you caught up as soon as possible, and that remains the same now. Can you expand on real time being more relevant for you, I'm curious why you prioritized that instead of catching up.

[Ranmaru]

Llamarble, look into WGEURTZ / Davsto and talk to me about the slot.

[Ranmaru]

Screenplay, respond to my #1050, thank you.

[Ranmaru]

Shea, talk to me about WGERTZ/Davsto as well please. What's your overall read on that slot?

[Ranmaru]

Screenplay is still scum, yes. Still down for this lynch.

[Ranmaru]

I say keep an eye on Gamma. I wasn't too fond of his reasoning to go to LQ over Screenplay.

[Ranmaru]

Who is Mike and who are you asking?

[Ranmaru]

That makes me feel a bit better, I really find this play here the towniest in comparison to other games I have been in with him, the two previous times he was scum and wasn't as townie. (One of which I caught him red-handed, but note that he states he has learned from it, so I'm keeping that in mind, I'm not underestimating him)

[Ranmaru]

llamarble why are you ignoring me?

He responded to you in his #1075 in the pedit.

[Ranmaru]

Shea what's your overall read on WGEURTZ/DAVSTO, please respond.

[Ranmaru]

Yes I would like a re-read, thank you.

[Ranmaru]

I said I didn't think you could salvage your slot.

[Ranmaru]

Finish catching up and give a full reads list.

[Ranmaru]

Hey Postie I'm glad to see you again.

[Ranmaru]

Then ignore Dunn. I encourage you to post your team opinions.

[Ranmaru]

Llamarble what's your read on Marquis right now?

[Ranmaru]

If there is anything you'd like to talk to me about, Llama, let me know. Eddie feels like he is being null on purpose. While Marquis feels like he's being null by not getting into the game yet.

[Ranmaru]

If scum:

[Screenplay, Davsto, Marquis]

If town:

[Davsto, Marquis, ActionDan]

Mostly on the basis that scum are trying to avoid the spotlight. Dan has a few nice posts, but he has only voted Postie and then Gamma, then no one, but also has a ton of town reads, which are easy to give out as scum. Marquis was posting in early game, and then makes an excuse for not being to get into the game, people give him the opportunity to, but he doesn't really, get into the game. (Especially after being wagoned) If I were scum and know how important early game is for positioning, I'd be around for it. Marquis feels like he did that, and now is lurking since he was wagoned, to avoid a lynch rather then help town find scum. Davsto seems scum to me in either scenario. Just stalling, and RC's point also supports this. Now I'm less confident about ActionDan because I remember in our last hydra game, that he didn't have as much time to post and let me handle the game. WGEURTZ did seem flat like LQ said, and just seemed as null as possible. He also just lurked out just like Tchill did. So now, my reads have changed. CES I can see town if Marquis is scum, and is probably wrong on the other scum.

Ranmaru
Llamarble
TSQ
Lycan
Postie
Dunnstral
NSG
Gamma
CES

Eddie
LQ

AD
Marquis
Davsto
Screenplay

[Screenplay > Davsto > Marquis > AD]

[Ranmaru]

Rather, I think CES might be town if his scum read on Marquis is correct, and his other scumreads are wrong, since I expect scum to try to avoid the spotlight so town can eat itself. So even though I don't like his last two votes, at least he is sticking his neck out for town, unlike Marquis.

[Ranmaru]

A weak connection, Tchill explains he doesn't get why Llama is making associations to Marquiz in his #161. His #163 shows he wasn't reading thoroughly, and might have been pseudo defending a buddy.

Tchill states in his #416 that he is still scum reading Postie or WGEURTZ, yet he never mentioned a scumread of WGEURTZ before. He responded to a post of WGEURTZ, but it doesn't match progression wise. His
#568 is the strongest connection to WGEURTZ, because it's a weird vote when you consider that it doesn't have pro-town motivation [He doesn't wait for the replacement to get a read on him, and he doesn't have a progression on WGEURTZ]. This is different how I and others are treating Screenplay, who's predecessor has given enough content for us to read, and we are reading it as scum. With WGEURTZ, he was null at best at the time, and he didn't have a reason to vote him in his progression. He most likely decided to push WGEURTZ early on, but forgot to and slipped up by saying 'still scumreading wgeurtz' when in fact it was the first time mentioning a scum read on him.

[Ranmaru]

Oh and Srceenplay is hardtown to RC something something don't make Whemestar an orphan.

Tell him I'll need a bit more than that to justify his hard town read on Screenplay. I'll read this later today.

[Ranmaru]

Postie, have you ever given a read on T-chill when he was still in the game? Just curious.

[Ranmaru]

@

Davesto

: Fair enough Davsto, your pushing back your catch up seemed like stalling to me, but I admit it's a weak point. I will retract it.
@

Screenplay

: You go before Davsto because of your actions, nothing more. I'm not on you due to POE.

[Ranmaru]

Postie, can I get a full reads list? Also interested in you answering Gamma's question.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you Action Dan. I still believe Screenplay is the best play today.

[Ranmaru]

Thanks Llamarble. I think we need to take a closer look at Marquis.

[Ranmaru]

Thanks, but I'm actually starting to think I'm wrong on Davsto. Still right on Screenplay and Marquiz though.

[Ranmaru]

The scum are [Screenplay > Marqus > Postie]. Let me break it down.

Marquis

:
Marquis enters voting North following Postie, with weak reasoning in his #24. This is in response to Postie asking why he voted North, not a good response. Marquis states he is having a hard time getting into the game in his#381 but lurks for quite a bit and doesn't try to get back into it, which he admits to in #631 . He talks about who is scum on his wagon, LQ in his #455. He is sidelining while not really pushing anything, like in his #877 and then unvotes in his #879 and nothing else. He has progression for LQ but he never follows up with it. In general, he seems more interested in getting a good position in town, fails and gets wagoned, and then lurks out to survive and dodge the lynch.

T-chill

:
A weak connection, Tchill explains he doesn't get why Llama is making associations to Marquiz in his #161. His #163 shows he wasn't reading thoroughly, and might have been pseudo defending a buddy. Tchill states in his #416 that he is still scum reading Postie or WGEURTZ, yet he never mentioned a scumread of WGEURTZ before. He responded to a post of WGEURTZ, but it doesn't match progression wise. His #568 it's a weird vote when you consider that it doesn't have pro-town motivation [He doesn't wait for the replacement to get a read on him, and he doesn't have a progression on WGEURTZ].

T-chill voting WGEURTZ may have been a red-herring

.

Postie

:

Postie's early game looks good, that I can say. She votes WGEURTS (probably for lurking), and then votes Marquis on a re-read and rolls with it. She then moves on to #204 LQ, stating he is more capable then he has been this game, and also states her team mates don't think he's being townie. She questions town why T-chill is scum in her #344 Then she votes Eddie in her #346 for sitting back and saying things from the side lines. She's been scumhunting, so that's good. She has a good position in town, and I felt she was town, and wouldn't have thought any differently until lately. She focuses on tunnelling Eddie. She posts that it's scummy that T-chill sits on his hands after voting Postie, in her #586. She says she is only held back by why he would pick scum. In her #769 she states she has a reads list but would rather not state it, which is as stated by Shea, is anti-town. She hard town reads Screen play via RC team read in her #1133, which makes me concerned she is making this big push on Eddie to save Screenplay. If he flips scum, there is reason to look in her direction due to that post. In her #1137 she states she didn't find anything readable from T-chill yet above, she already stated that she did find him scummy, just was held back by his preference. She wouldn't expect him to take it. She feels LQ wagon is more inspired then Marquis or T-chill, and feels Eddie is the true lynch in her #535 535.

So in general, she plays an overall good seeming town game, yet at the same time she's trying to block town's progress in finding actual scum, while having the appearance of being town. This is supported by her declining the request to provide her reads list. She is in the right position to try and move votes to Eddie, and she's put a ton of effort into it, to help counter the push on Screen play. I find it disingenous that she states T-chill has no readable content, when she herself had stated he was scummy but she was held back due to what she thinks or knows he would choose. She distances Marquis by voting him on a re-read, doesn't mention him but does ask him to look into Eddie in her #463. So she rolls with the wagon, leaves it and never talks about her read on Marquis ever again. So upon Screen flipping scum, Postie is scum. We only need to lynch 2 scum to win, but I feel it's good to know who all three scum may be so that we can see who else is correct and therefore town [CES, for example]. If Screenplay flips town, I will have less reason to believe in Postie being scum, as I would then find her counter as town motivated.

[Ranmaru]

So, that means my reads list changes a little bit.

Ranmaru
Llamarble
TSQ
Lycan

Dunnstral
NSG
Gamma
CES
Davsto

Eddie
LQ

AD
Postie
Marquis
Screenplay

[Screenplay > Marquis > Postie > AD]

[Ranmaru]

So once again, Screenplay is the best play for today.

[Ranmaru]

I also really like Gamma's #1138.

[Ranmaru]

I am also enjoying this game and am ready to end Screenplay. I would like NSG to finish catching up though, as her lack of presence is a concern.

[Ranmaru]

You just need to catch up and give reads but you have avoided that for the longest time.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma come back to the Screenplay wagon please.

[Ranmaru]

Wrong post CES. What do you think of my #1153?

[Ranmaru]

I really want NSG and Marquis to post.

[Ranmaru]

Welcome back, Gamma.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you CES.

[Ranmaru]

The scum are [Screenplay > Marqus > Postie]. Let me break it down.

Marquis

:
Marquis enters voting North following Postie, with weak reasoning in his #24. This is in response to Postie asking why he voted North, not a good response. Marquis states he is having a hard time getting into the game in his#381 but lurks for quite a bit and doesn't try to get back into it, which he admits to in #631 . He talks about who is scum on his wagon, LQ in his #455. He is sidelining while not really pushing anything, like in his #877 and then unvotes in his #879 and nothing else. He has progression for LQ but he never follows up with it. In general, he seems more interested in getting a good position in town, fails and gets wagoned, and then lurks out to survive and dodge the lynch.

T-chill

:
A weak connection, Tchill explains he doesn't get why Llama is making associations to Marquiz in his #161. His #163 shows he wasn't reading thoroughly, and might have been pseudo defending a buddy. Tchill states in his #416 that he is still scum reading Postie or WGEURTZ, yet he never mentioned a scumread of WGEURTZ before. He responded to a post of WGEURTZ, but it doesn't match progression wise. His #568 it's a weird vote when you consider that it doesn't have pro-town motivation [He doesn't wait for the replacement to get a read on him, and he doesn't have a progression on WGEURTZ].

T-chill voting WGEURTZ may have been a red-herring

.

Postie

:

Postie's early game looks good, that I can say. She votes WGEURTS (probably for lurking), and then votes Marquis on a re-read and rolls with it. She then moves on to #204 LQ, stating he is more capable then he has been this game, and also states her team mates don't think he's being townie. She questions town why T-chill is scum in her #344 Then she votes Eddie in her #346 for sitting back and saying things from the side lines. She's been scumhunting, so that's good. She has a good position in town, and I felt she was town, and wouldn't have thought any differently until lately. She focuses on tunnelling Eddie. She posts that it's scummy that T-chill sits on his hands after voting Postie, in her #586. She says she is only held back by why he would pick scum. In her #769 she states she has a reads list but would rather not state it, which is as stated by Shea, is anti-town. She hard town reads Screen play via RC team read in her #1133, which makes me concerned she is making this big push on Eddie to save Screenplay. If he flips scum, there is reason to look in her direction due to that post. In her #1137 she states she didn't find anything readable from T-chill yet above, she already stated that she did find him scummy, just was held back by his preference. She wouldn't expect him to take it. She feels LQ wagon is more inspired then Marquis or T-chill, and feels Eddie is the true lynch in her #535 535.

So in general, she plays an overall good seeming town game, yet at the same time she's trying to block town's progress in finding actual scum, while having the appearance of being town. This is supported by her declining the request to provide her reads list. She is in the right position to try and move votes to Eddie, and she's put a ton of effort into it, to help counter the push on Screen play. I find it disingenous that she states T-chill has no readable content, when she herself had stated he was scummy but she was held back due to what she thinks or knows he would choose. She distances Marquis by voting him on a re-read, doesn't mention him but does ask him to look into Eddie in her #463. So she rolls with the wagon, leaves it and never talks about her read on Marquis ever again. So upon Screen flipping scum, Postie is scum. We only need to lynch 2 scum to win, but I feel it's good to know who all three scum may be so that we can see who else is correct and therefore town [CES, for example]. If Screenplay flips town, I will have less reason to believe in Postie being scum, as I would then find her counter as town motivated.

[Ranmaru]

Wrong post CES. What do you think of my #1153?

Oh yeah, I meant to link #1010, not #1110.

I think your analysis of Marquis is pretty on point; the Tchill part doesn't really sway me; with the Postiepart I like the holistic read that she's seemed more town on some level than her play has been (if Eddie is town at least, which to me is the crucial question there) although I've got slightly different views on the nature of it, I think (e.g. #446 is, I would argue, her scummiest post). I'd like to respond in more detail (to this and some other comments) but I just haven't had the time this week, sorry. E.g. I have to go right now.

[Ranmaru]

Marquiz read on T-chill and Postie? Why are you not motivated?

[Ranmaru]

#1153 #1185

Please look at these two posts.

[Ranmaru]

Also, timing of Marquis's vote on LQ is bad.

[Ranmaru]

Screen: Mind melds can come from town too so I don't see your point.

[Ranmaru]

Ah, makes sense. I don't know what a saving vote throw is haha.

[Ranmaru]

Ah, thanks. NSG, you gonna post at all?

[Ranmaru]

Hey Llama. Let me know if there is anything you want to wrap up before night arrives. Still confident in Screen flipping scum. People should look at Marquis and his LQ vote timing.

[Ranmaru]

#1153 #1185

Please look at these two posts.

[Ranmaru]

Postie made a case on Eddie but dissapeared.

[Ranmaru]

Marquiz I don't know, I can see my avatar on my phone and desktop but not my laptop.

[Ranmaru]

Vote: Marquis

[Ranmaru]

This is my only solid lead right now. I'll re-read on the others. Shea is still town, Gamma is still town. Postie is lean town.

[Ranmaru]

Listen I know you're either new or scum but I would hope everyone else who knows me enough knows this is shallow at best.

Why did you address Gamma here but not myself? I agree with his assessment. Also you have me high in your reads list but you don't mention me. Can you go into your reasons why you town read me?

[Ranmaru]

Here is what I want for people to work on. I want full reads lists. (Postie) I also want everyone to keep their votes in play. This includes Marquis and Action Dan.

[Ranmaru]

Postie, can I get a reads list from you? (Not right now, when you have the time) Also, I want to see you replying to Davsto's #1139 and #1140 if you are pushing Eddie.

[Ranmaru]

RC, your yelling doesn't endear me to you. I've given a reads list, and plan to give more. I'm asking Postie for a reads list so I can sort her better. Also, Shea isn't scum.

Postie, can you give a reads list now?

[Ranmaru]

Eddie, why are you voting Marquis over myself if you suspect me?

[Ranmaru]

Fair enough. Later on, yes. LQ, I want a full reads list from you too.

[Ranmaru]

LQ you are focusing a lot on Postie right now. I want a reads list.

[Ranmaru]

Eddie, don't dodge the question. Answer.

[Ranmaru]

Trying to draw away from Postie.

What do you mean by this?

[Ranmaru]

Why did your read on CES change?

[Ranmaru]

LQ, you had Screen as Null/Scum in your #999. Why didn't you vote him?

[Ranmaru]

When did your read on Postie change and why?

[Ranmaru]

What was your read on Postie at that time?

[Ranmaru]

I'm thinking the team is [LQ > Eddie > Marquis].

LQ

:
LQ's post is force in his #888. LQ tries to shade my replace in his #829 Shea asked him if he why he didn't think my catchup was genuine, and responds saying that he laughed at me misrepresenting him, and fence sits his read on me. Yet, this has nothing to do with his point that I had no 'unique' reads. Seems like a slight back track of his original position. LQ throws shade at Screen in his #1058, and while null scum reading him in his #999. Yet, LQ doesn't join the wagon on Screen, he avoids it while poking at him. He then votes Postie, who he read as null in his #999, but has not stated a read change nor did he have any progression. My assumption is that he saw my case on her, and took the opportunity to place his vote on Postie to A) Draw associative between her and him, and B) To stay off the ScreenTOWN wagon. LQ's #1299 shows that he prefers to muddy the connection between himself and Postie, to drag her down in his eventual lynch.

Eddie

:
Eddie's #1315 Shows he scumreads CES for hammering. Then, he votes Marquis in his #1320 while scumreading myself for no reason at all. In his #1336 he states I'm trying to draw off pressure from Postie (LQ v Postie), which contradicts his initial read of CES MARQ RAN. It shows that he has no genuine reads here, and is applying the same tactic LQ is, muddying his connection with myself to drag me down in his eventual lynch.

Marquis

:
Marquis enters voting North following Postie, with weak reasoning in his #24. This is in response to Postie asking why he voted North, not a good response. Marquis states he is having a hard time getting into the game in his#381 but lurks for quite a bit and doesn't try to get back into it, which he admits to in #631 . He talks about who is scum on his wagon, LQ in his #455. He is sidelining while not really pushing anything, like in his #877 and then unvotes in his #879 and nothing else. He has progression for LQ but he never follows up with it. In general, he seems more interested in getting a good position in town, fails and gets wagoned, and then lurks out to survive and dodge the lynch. Then he comes in late with with 1226 voting LQ. It is badly timed, it does not seem genuine.

LQ and Eddie are both trying to muddy connections between universal town reads, since they seem to have no other option, or little options available to them. Today, we lynch either LQ or Eddie. Then the other the next day.

[Ranmaru]

Vote: LQ

[Ranmaru]

Eddie, Why did your read on CES change?

[Ranmaru]

[LQ > Eddie > Marquis > | AD > Dunn | NSG > CES > Davsto | Lycan > Gamma > TSQ > Ranmaru]

[Ranmaru]

[LQ > Eddie > Marquis > | AD > Dunn | NSG > CES > Davsto | Lycan > Postie > Gamma > TSQ > Ranmaru]

Forgot to add Postie. I think we have this game in the bag. Seeing LQ and Eddie make desperate plays seems like we have cornered them.

[Ranmaru]

I asked CES because I wanted to know his reasoning. It may not be the same reasoning that I had for considering his entrance post bad. CES was being reserved, and his interactions didn't really seem like he was suspecting him, just being along for the ride. You state why I was not feeling Marquis, I was null reading him at the time. If I agree with something in the catch up, that is all there is to it. I'm not going to try to regurgitate things that have already been said. I don't see how my catch up did nothing, I commented on things that stuck out to me, and I voted suspects. I interacted that way with Postie because I was town reading her then. CES's #870 shows he was simply on Llama to needle him, since he didn't want to be the seventh vote on Marquis. I was reading TM 2012, seeing him confident stating his scum team over and over again. Here, not as much. (He linked the game to me a while ago, which got me interested in TM)

[Ranmaru]

Since when did you scumread CES, and for how long did you have that scumread?

[Ranmaru]

Hey Shea. Let me know if there is anything you want to talk about read wise.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, I am more confident in LQ right now.

[Ranmaru]

LQ: What was your read on Postie at that time?

[Ranmaru]

Why do you feel Postie is bussing Eddie in White Flag?

[Ranmaru]

Also, are you saying you read Postie as town at some point? If so, when?

[Ranmaru]

Quote or link it for me, I am mobile.

[Ranmaru]

Your read on Postie during D1 that you refer to in your #1377.

[Ranmaru]

LQ: You state in your #1351 that you first realized RC was playing through Postie in your #324. Yet your reasoning for voting Postie in your #1210 is that everything Postie writes is scripted by RC for her, which you already noticed in your #324. So the question is, why do you vote Postie so late in the day if you have already noticed RC being scripted since your #324?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, please snip the quotes to the relevant parts you are responding to.

[Ranmaru]

Shea, I would like to talk reads.

CES, I want two more scum reads.

[Ranmaru]

I'd like to talk about your CES read, Shea. I'm good with the rest of your reads. I'm at work so will go over it in a bit.

[Ranmaru]

Here's something to consider looking into: Yesterday's wagon, those voting on it and off it, and what was happening around that time. Then look at what happened D2, and tell me your thoughts. Finally, tell me why you were putting this game on the back burner.

Also, talk to me more about CES and Lycanfire. What's your reasoning for scumreading them? Thoughts on this post: #1356

Shea, will respond to you soon, I'm home now.

[Ranmaru]

Marquis: Read on Eddie and Ces?

[Ranmaru]

Shea, the case is solid. It translates to here, I like the point Postie brings up about Edd voting Gamma and unvotes later and sits on his ass. The point that he doesn't follow up makes sense, and he had this obtuse way of not answering to a request, and then just leaving. This case lines up with my own reasoning for suspecting him. The biggest ping I have on Eddie, is that his tone has changed from Day 1 to Day 2. He goes from doing nothing Day 1 to placing bad votes, and having fake reads Day 2. His tone goes from funny Day 1 to malevolent Day 2.

[Ranmaru]

#1451: CES, When you get back, comment on why you scumread Gamma too. I am also curious as to why you haven't voted Eddie at all through out the game. CES am I still feeling that you lack presence this game. Is this a usual thing for you? I know this is technically the second time we have played together, and I have only read the TM 2012 you gave me. You were town there and kept on pushing your scum team list. Can you explain why there is a difference here? If you could confidently push a scum team there, why haven't you done so with your three scum reads here?

Ok I feel better about Marquis now. I wonder why only I and Marquis noticed that. Eddie's is more blatant then LQ's, though.

[Ranmaru]

Shea: Postie is town and Gamma is town. Note my [##710] from Family Mafia. I cased Postie on the same things CES and others are casing her for. Seeming town, asking questions that seem to ignore good intentions. Now that I remember, her first question to me was "Why aren't you town reading this person" or "Why are you town reading this person wth". (Lol at her saying that about her own mason) Alongside that, I do feel her push on Eddie is solid town, even though her not wanting to release a reads list is anti-town. Reading through her ISO, she didn't give a reads list there either. Also, Gamma was scum in that game and I killed him as soon as I saw him jump at me. I played with Gamma a few more times and noticed a lack of interest in his Mafia / Third Party games. He was either bussed or lynched as third party. I think here, he genuinely believes in his push. With CES, I was more curious about your take on him, but since you note the middle is more of a null (I think) then I'm fine with it how it is for now. If it wasn't I would have suggested to lower CES. Do you get the same feeling as myself, that he is being reserved? I can't offer much more right now, but I'd like to talk more later in the Day. I can't really help with NSG or AD though. Cheeky did say NSG was locktown via meta, so you know. Anyway I just wanted to talk reads so we could see eye to eye with reads.

[Ranmaru]

Marquis: WGEURTS has evolved into DAVSTO a while ago just so you know.

[Ranmaru]

LQ, what is your read on CES now?

[Ranmaru]

Also note that LQ didn't follow up with a reason. He dropped it without explanation.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, move your vote to either Eddy or LQ. Also talk to me about CES.

[Ranmaru]

Questions about Team Mates

:

CES

: Has Singer said anything about the game? I'm interested in her thoughts.

NSG

: Is KMD saying anything about the game? I really want to know his thoughts, I have played with him before and he's a great neighbor.

LQ

: Has Mulch said anything about the game?

[Ranmaru]

What do you mean another dichotomy? Talk to me about that. Also talk to me about Marquis. Also, I want you to look hard at CES.

[Ranmaru]

Marquis: I said after your reads post I am feeling better about you. I've explained why I scumread LQ and Eddie in my #1356. So I currently null-town read you, and hope for you to continue the activity. Reason for LQ is my original reasoning, he comes off as playing re-actively rather then proactively. He has no progression of Postie and votes her for being scripted even though he stated that much earlier in D1. His opening play reads almost as desperate as Eddie's, while Eddie's is blatant. Now, why would two players play desperately in a white flag set up? Think about that for a second. Eddie's tone is white and black from D1 and D2. Between funny and malevolent. Why would his tone change? He is showing his true colors, it is not a pro-tone change of tone. I think the reason for their desperate plays is due to town being too townish, which will lock them out via PoE in the future. I can think of no other reason. Ask yourself how a player can believe Postie is bussing Eddie, and push the person she is pushing first, while Eddie does the same thing with myself early D2.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma does tend to play by the book, in general. When I say he's scummy as scum, he's scummy. Here in comparison, he's pretty townie to me. If he's scum, this is the most townie I have seen him be and I applaud him, yet I think he's town. So I want you to try to work with him. Your response towards Gamma at the end of D1 was a bit snarky, so I could understand why he's miffed at you.

[Ranmaru]

Marquis: I also have a third scumread I'm reserving, since it's still developing. Any other questions?
LQ: I still want your reasoning for your CES read.

[Ranmaru]

LQ: You stated you dislike this post: #1458. I'm wondering how that affects your read on CES and what the read changes to.

[Ranmaru]

You didn't answer how it affects your read. Please do that.

[Ranmaru]

LQ: You told me other reasons why you are reading CES as town, you never said how the post you didn't like affected it. Completed this sentence: "The post I didn't like makes me read CES as ____ now for [reasons]." Also, I still scumread you, and I have been asking more than just you on CES. If I find something questionable from you, I will question you.

[Ranmaru]

You are playing desperate by pushing Eddie (Postie's top scum read) when you scumread Postie, and you state she's bussing. I think both you and Eddie are scum, trying to split wagons, so that you create connections between others instead of each other, which makes sense in a game where scum are discouraged from bussing. I'm shocked that Gamma doesn't see it.

Peddit: Just answer the question instead of dragging this out.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, tell me more about that.

[Ranmaru]

i have some thoughts from kmd, gotten secondhand from math – he thinks marquis and quick are both super town and he's disappointed with the suspicion on eddie, postie and tsq. although i know that until recently he hadn't seen the flip and still thought llamarble might be scum, so not sure how modern these are.

Can you have them give reasons why? Also, can I see a vote from you? Or an explanation for why you aren't voting? I especially want to see KMD's thoughts, and I know he'd be the type to give good notes.

[Ranmaru]

I'm noting that you don't want to answer the question then. I'm dropping this, as this isn't productive or helpful.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, I think that's what is happening here. I'm trying to wrack my brain around it. How is this situation different from Open 660? (I'm looking for the game now)

[Ranmaru]

Gamma

: I should make myself clear. I think LQ is bussing Eddie, to drag down Postie. Eddie votes Marquis while having me as his top scum read, to drag me down. (Postie and I are universal town reads, they are trying to muddy our townieness with their deaths) LQ pushes Eddie, Eddie flips scum, LQ is semi-cleared for pushing since we wouldn't expect people to bus. Both of their reasoning for voting Eddie/Marquis are weird, and seem desperate. I think Marq is null-town, so Eddie's push on Marq doesn't seem like a bus. Go back and re-read the beginning of D2. Notice Eddie only focusing on my

catchup

and none of the rest of my play. Notice both their votes, then tell me what you think of their votes. Please look at them again. I'm coming from a mindset where I don't know what to expect, this is my first White Flag.

[Ranmaru]

I'm not sure. I'm just telling you what it feels like. Maybe it's not to drag myself and Postie down, but rather to make a disconnect between each other. I can't know the exact reasoning scum would do this, I can only guess. On LQ being aware of it: Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. What do you mean desperation is in the air for you? I liked Marquis's vote on Eddie, his reasoning that was similar to mine. I liked that he made stances and was actually interacting quite a bit. Originally I scum read him based on him being in early game, and being less present during most of D1, which would make sense coming from scum. If he becomes active D2, most of that problem goes away for me. Especially since there are other slots that are much more under the radar, like AD or Dunn.

[Ranmaru]

No, my read changed when he started posting when I said "I'm feeling better about Marquis now." I think you don't like my move because of your conf-bias of Marquis. You kind of agree, so doesn't that make sense for me to move to one of Eddie / LQ? Who has more reason to be desperate, town or scum?

[Ranmaru]

I'm going to sleep Gamma. Just check this post: 1305 to see at the time, Marquis was my only lead at the time, but I was re-reading to find better ones. I didn't think my read on Marquis was strong enough. In my #1356 I still scumread Marquis, still haven't posted, but LQ and Eddie out prioritize him, because they seem more suspicious. Then in my #1479 I state I feel better about Marquis after he posts content that seems similar to my mindset. Please let me know which alignment you think would be desperate at this point in the game. Night.

[Ranmaru]

LQ, this is what I think. If you are town, you are playing in a way that causes confusion and wasted posts when we could move on with other things. If you are scum, you are being easy to read as scum and using that as an excuse so you can survive, except being excessively reactive. Having a progression that you don't remember, is an issue. Voting Postie, while throwing shade at Screen play and being off his wagon, seems like scum. If you are Town, I want you to stop this reactionary play. It's not helping us find scum if you are town. If it is helping you, please provide the results now. Also, your entrance post for Day 2 is bad. You are pushing Postie's scum read, while voting her on gut. That's not enough for a read. Essentially if you are town you are being a distraction. Also, Postie is town. If you town read me, why not discuss the read with me?

[Ranmaru]

Lycan

: Why are you voting CES without interacting with him, nor casing him? Why aren't you pushing for his lynch? How is your reads list looking like now?

TSQ

: In your #1400 you say that you think LQ is less likely scum now that Chill/Screen flipped town. Your read on him seemed more of an individual scum read rather then an associative. Can you explain how his actions fare better with a Chill town flip, and explain how it makes you feel better about the rest of his Day 1 play? How are you reading LQ now?

I'm still at work, will get to other things later tonight. I might post short posts in the mean time though.

[Ranmaru]

Postie

: LQ is currently my top scum read (yet it's waning), so I would push for him over Eddie, simple as that. Just as you would push for Eddie over another scum read. Before this, I'd be asking him questions so he could clarify his actions. That post is asking him to provide what results his reactionary play style has produced for him. I'm saying

if

LQ is town, that he should stop that, as I'm trying to reconsider him (and have once already when I voted Screen). This is all because he asked me about this post: 1532. I'm waiting on his response.

Lycanfire

: Can you specify who you think is TvT and why? Alright, when you next get a chance can you give me a few reads? I don't see how Dan is obvscum, can you walk me through that?

LQ

: Is RC bussing in every game the basis of your read on Postie?

[Ranmaru]

NSG: A50 is following the game, and he says he wants to work with you and your team if possible.

[Ranmaru]

I will let you know when he responds.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire

: In your #932 you declare Eddie and Dunn as lynchbait. Yet, at no point during Day 2 do you talk about him or the cases brought up on Eddie. Why is that? What is your read on Eddie?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma

: If you are lost, I suggest you re-read the thread. Day 1, specifically.

[Ranmaru]

CES

: What is your read on TSQ and Lycanfire? Now that you feel better about Postie, how does that affect your read on her and Eddie?

[Ranmaru]

TSQ: Thank you. What's your read on Lycanfire at the moment? NSG, I'll get to you later after I get home from work.

[Ranmaru]

LQ

: When you said 'does anyone notice he's shying away with his scumread on me'. Your play has made me question why scum would continue to put themselves in the spotlight, and I feel most of your posts drown out the good gems hidden within. On a re-read, I have noted even more good posts. With regards to the progression, you state you don't remember when your read on Postie changed, yet you had her as null in your #999 and didn't expect for her to change, but then you voted her at the end of Day 1. I think you are town. In addition to the posts I said were good, your posts don't seem to have scum motivation. (To survive) I now understand that the way you are voting seems to be your 'thing'. That was another big problem of mine initially, as Postie states. I don't think scum!You would do that. Reads list incoming.

Now, I ISO'd you, to see, and your #1380 is the closest I can find to answering this question. So I can see it as possibly close to what RC said, still not exact though. Even so, I think that helps me understand your push on Postie in the beginning as well.

Unvote

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Game Winning Reads

LQ's #433 and#434 are good posts. I fail to realize that LQ has some good gems in his ISO like these two posts, yet it's drowned out by other posts which cause distraction. I will re-quote my read from #1082: "In reviewing, LQ's #98 and #104 are good posts. So, if he is town, then he is playing it sloppy. His play looks like mine in a previous scum game but overall, it seems more like he got off to a bad start." I tried reconsidering him Day 1, then he opens up with the Postie vote Day 2 which seems odd. Seeing RC point out that it makes sense for him since it actually is drawing from meta I am not aware of, I can actually feel much better about LQ's entrance, and can revert back to a town read of LQ.

Shea's #435 seems like he is trying to distract from LQ bringing up good points on LQ. In a way, he taints the reactions LQ could have gained from Lycan responding to that so he could read LQ v Lycan. He mentions LQ doesn't finish the conversation with him, which is a good point, but Shea does the same thing this game. In Gamma's #256, he wonders why he doesn't realize what Gamma did was a mistake. Shea in his #257 states that we got our first, which isn't understanding at all. At first I thought he didn't understand in a townie way, but I realize he doesn't even

try

to understand. Shea ignores my #1064 first, and I have to repeat my question to get him to answer. On Day 2, I try to ask Shea on reads so we can make sure we see eye to eye, as being top town reads, I'd want us to be able to get things right. Yet, Shea doesn't seem to share this same desire as I do. Shea isn't initiating any questions to me. He did once to Llama, asking him to reconsider NSG. He hasn't asked me a thing. I realize that Shea has been less present in the thread, and that is also a concern. In Shea's #1400, he votes Eddie stating that he doesn't think LQ is as likely now that Chill flipped town, but I felt his push was more of an individual push and not just an association. (IE: If Tchill flips scum, LQ is scum) It feels like if Eddie is town, he's just joining for an easy push since Postie is pushing that hard.

I liked NSG's questioning towards Lycanfire and her contributions towards Gamma v TSQ. I like her #306 for asking Lycan's town reads and CES's scumreads, as CES was lacking presence and scum reads especially. Lycan only had five reads and I understand why she asked, trying to probe for more opinions from him then the few he gave. I also really like her #441. She asks Shea why he didn't consider Lycan within the pool of Tichill/LQ/???. If Shea and Lycan are scum it shows Shea wasn't considering him in the pool, when there is reason to consider him to be in a team pool. Shea later on states in his #672 that he isn't willing to vote Lycan (and Sauce/Postie/Llama). Yet, he hasn't really shown a good reason to not consider voting Lycan.

Lycan's #430 has 5 reads, and has no mention of CES when he is voting him, and has had progression with CES earlier in the day. In Lycan's #932, he posts saying that Eddie and Dunn are lynch bait. He has gone over this with Postie a little bit on Day 1. One thing townies do is they block lynches or scumreads from people onto their townreads. Lycan tries to emulate this during Day 1, but during Day 2, he doesn't really comment on the wagons of LQ and Eddie. He mentions that he read the previous pages and thought they were TvT, so he has been reading. This shows he doesn't truly care about the Eddy wagon. On Day 2, he votes CES in his #1369. He makes a joke about a sofa being a wagon, that he needs six people to life. Yet, he doesn't try to push people to help him lift it, he just sits on his hands.

CES's post here #368 shows he is trying to dissuade people from waiting for a replacement instead of straight up lynching him. Which he admits to in his #820. He explains his lack of presence with #526 and another excuse in his #1557. In his #665 and his #728 he is voting town. He voted Llama. None of his votes have been landing on scum, or at least it seems. I just think he's being reserved and isn't really trying that hard to lynch scum.

Due to A50's analysis, I feel it's less likely Eddie is scum here. I still dislike his tone change from D1 to D2, and dislike that he focused solely on my catch up to base his read on. Yet I don't think his wagon would grow to this point if he were scum. His tone is forced in his #1547 as well. The only thing that gives me pause is that I don't think scum would be that blatant, even newb scum. If we had the opportunity to, I would help support Postie with this, but with this game, we cannot focus on a possible town. We need to find scum. He's null-scum, in that he still feels very off. Yet I'd rather lynch who I really are the true scum before him.

Marquis I like has gotten into the fray a little bit, and I only really looked at his early game and assumed that's what scum would want to do. I was thinking at least one scum may have wanted to post in early game to take a good position in town, which is what caused me to read Marquis like that. Nothing else really changed, I hope to see him continue his activity.

For anyone else, my read hasn't really changed. Gamma still remains town, and note that he's been having some paranoia of myself, which also seems townie. AD, I haven't seen really do much yet this day phase. Dunn, same thing. Davsto has had some good posts, making sure that Postie is using enough evidence, yet I don't really feel stronger about him.

Vote: Shea

[Shea > Lycan > CES > Eddie | AD > Dunn | Davsto >Marquis >LQ > NSG | Postie > Gamma > Ranmaru]

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: Almost50 is thinking that team 9 got 2 or 3 scum pms, and that team 1 got 1 or 2 scum pms. He thinks it is likely that team 9 is scum in two games, and that our own team, team 15, is being eliminated from all games due to his method. He say precisely in this game, that he took a closer look at Eddie and Davsto and decided they are not scum. He thinks that the three scum in this game have come from teams with 1 scum pm each, and has cleared NSG, Davsto, Gamma, which I agree with. He came up with a pool of Lycanfire, CES, Dunn, Shea, and Marquis. I then looked at that pool and tried to see who was the most likely scum.

His reads are based on (in order from 1 to 3):

1. In-game association and behaviour
2. In-game VCA
3. Global VCA

He says Mastina has come up with a way to mess with the VCA by forming a

3-Player Wagon (all scum) voting a slot early game

, and he doesn't believe it is the case with Eddie. Make sure your team reads this post and please have them return a response soon. He thinks we should be working with teams 4,5,13,14 and possibly 10 but 10 is not a hundred percent. (Although I want to work with AD since he's my hydra buddy)

NSG, here is what A50 thinks are the most likely to pick scum:

1) Annen/Tbone, 2) Lycan/Eddie Cane, 5) ??, 6) CES/CDB, 7) Implosion/Marquis, 9) All of them, but Mastina and Thor already flipped, so Gingie/Bulb > Eddie, 10) AD/CK, 11) GL, 12) TSQ, 13) Chara

[Ranmaru]

I'm most confident Shea or Lycan should die today.

[Ranmaru]

Shea hasn't been trying to work with me as much as have been with him. Note that he asks Llamarble to reconsider his read on NSG but he doesn't try to ask me anything. As I re-read I noticed that LQ was giving good points on Lycan yet Shea started attacking him a few minutes later, ignoring the content LQ posted. Shea also doesn't have a good reason to not vote Lycan yet he's hesitant to put him in a pool. My biggest problem with Shea is that he is happy to push Eddie and isn't trying to reconsider his reads, and it seems odd for him to be pushing Eddie over LQ when he had big problems with him the day before. If Eddie is town then Shea is just letting Postie push Eddie and he's along for the ride, win-win for him. He also wasn't considerate of his push on you, Gamma. You were explaining that you were making a mistake but he continued to push on you without actually considering it.

[Ranmaru]

Notice, between myself and Shea, who has more presence this day phase? Does it seem like he's trying to win it for town as Llama's selected town leader (alongside myself).

[Ranmaru]

Please re-phrase that, I don't get it. Also talk to me about Lycan.

[Ranmaru]

I'm saying if TSQ is scum, Eddie is town. Team of [Shea, Lycan, CES].

[Ranmaru]

Please do ISO Lycan. Then look at his votes. Then look at how he is pushing his scum reads and tell me what you think about it.

[Ranmaru]

I like the simplicity of it.

[Ranmaru]

I've already explained that, you can find that in my posts above. Talk to me about Lycan or Shea.

[Ranmaru]

He's null-town.

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: Be sure to read my #1631 if you haven't.

[Ranmaru]

Eddie: I want to see what Thor has to say about the game.
NSG: Sweet.

[Ranmaru]

Shea

: On day 1 I asked you for your thoughts on Davsto and I had to repeat myself before you actually responded to me. I was thinking since you and I disagreed on reads, being the most top town reads, you would be interested in asking me to reconsider any reads, like you did with Llama. Today you never

initiated

a conversation with me, your strongest town read. So my question is this: Why haven't you made the initiative to ask? Of course if

I

ask you to talk reads, you'll talk, I am not disputing that. Why don't you agree on Lycan, do tell. Why did you ignore LQ's #434, and attack him a few minutes later? Why did you never comment on LQ's #434. I also did not like your treatment of Gamma on a re-read. I want an updated full reads list from you with reasons. I felt that you should have considered LQ before simply voting Eddie this phase. I expected your assistance on LQ so it was odd that you preferred to support the Eddie wagon instead at the time.

[Ranmaru]

VOTE: EddieFenix

I think that LQ being scum mostly makes sense from the perspective of tchill being scum.

If tchill isn't scum a lot of LQs actions on that wagon look a lot better

.

I didn't really get the feeling that you only considered LQ bad solely due to his interactions with T-chill (which certainly was part of it, but you seemed to have more on him). So this felt out of place. Fair that you'll get to it after sleeping, I must sleep as well. I am also tired from work.

[Ranmaru]

Dunnstral

: A50 also wants you and your team to read my #1631 and comment on it as well.

[Ranmaru]

I need to think about the flips because a

part of what made LQ scum was the tchill associations

. Not all of it, but some part. I think my votes going to end up there but I want to reread postie's eddie case and think about what the tchill flip means for LQ before I do.

Alright when you get back I want you to show me where you show this thought process during Day 1. Also, if you were thinking of it like that, why were you fine with killing

either

LQ

or

T-chill then?

[Ranmaru]

Tell RC to talk to me about Lycanfire and Shea.

[Ranmaru]

I've had problems with you when I replaced in, and those still remain. You are a hard to read player, I have little to go off but gut and the votes you have, and your lack of presence. I'll read your latest town game. #1596 your reasons for your Shea and Lycanfire reads are not really convincing. I need more than that. Tell me what you think about what I said on Lycanfire and Shea.

[Ranmaru]

I think I paraphrased it. If I'm being force replaced, so be it. My reads remain. My CES read is weaker then Shea/Lycan. If anything, Lycan is a good wagon to go to. I've done this because I'd most likely be night killed N2, so might as well swing hard. If I'm force replaced, I want to say that I enjoyed playing with you guys. If not, I'd be glad to stay.

[Ranmaru]

LQ: Why are you still voting me, and why haven't you talked to me about Lycanfire and Shea?

[Ranmaru]

I also want to note that Lycanfire has been online and has posted for a while. Please people, I highly implore you all to ISO Lycanfire, and ask yourself what he is doing to help find scum.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire

: I was telling people to look at your votes so they'd see you voting CES and not doing as much from my perspective. I've looked at your meta and it checks out. I think that interaction means they are not aligned. It's possible he didn't care about it since he town reads you, though. CES explains the #466 in his #1451. I liked your response, so I'm retracting my scum read on you.

Shea

: I thought it was AI because I've done it before as scum, that's the simplest way to explain it. Fair enough on reconsidering reads. That is a good point, actually (the informal thing). I didn't consider that. 4) makes sense too. Fair on number seven, if Eddie is scum then I'll have no problem at all. Fair on pushing gamma for reactions. Fair enough on the T-chill/LQ association.

---

I've decided I'm wrong on this entirely, including CES if he's right on Postie/Eddie. I'm now willing to help with the Eddie wagon. I'm concerned about LQ's actions as I pushed for Shea/Lycanfire.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Eddie

[Ranmaru]

Can you talk to me about that?

[Ranmaru]

I'm thinking the team is [Eddie > LQ > Postie].

[Ranmaru]

Is there any long term benefit for Postie bussing Eddie? Why is Eddie lying down and taking this?

Shea, talk to me about what LQ was doing these recent pages.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma I think both may be scum. Eddie was playing null Day 1 but she was already attacking him since then, when others have been doing the same. It is possible that it was an intended push to gain town credit in the long term. Although, that makes LQ's opening post less likely to be as scum, I don't think all three scum would connect themselves that way. I will re-order it like this for now: [Eddie > Postie > LQ]. LQ may be replaced.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma is town.

[Ranmaru]

Davsto, can I have a readslist?

[Ranmaru]

Action Dan I'm not sure why you are commenting on the wagons being alarming without first taking a deeper look into each individual's actions.

[Ranmaru]

Yet you know enough to see that Eddie has a Mastina case on me. I want you to catch up in depth and give a full reads list, Dan.

[Ranmaru]

Why did you feel compelled to express your snapshot feelings?

[Ranmaru]

When I say catch up and full reads list, it means read D2 fully,

then

give an updated full reads list

with reasoning.

[Ranmaru]

Postie I want you to post your reads list today.

[Ranmaru]

I want RC's full reads list too.

[Ranmaru]

LQ

: Why didn't you read his list thoroughly? Why do you find him suspect for having non-unique reads?

[Ranmaru]

What are your updated reads? Why didn't you comment on Ran v Shea / Ran v Lycanfire / Ran v CES?

[Ranmaru]

Davsto, can you talk to me more about your Postie, Gamma, and Action Dan read?

[Ranmaru]

LQ: Post your updated reads.
NSG: Any reads and or vote now? Still wondering why this is the back burner game for you.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma what do you think?

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: What is your read on Shea? Can you talk to me more about Eddie. Do you have meta on him?

[Ranmaru]

LQ seems to have missed Shea and Lycanfire in his reads in his #199. It's interesting because he discussed Dunn and Lycanfire being either town or scum when responding to Eddie. Here in his #267 LQ FOS's Shea for hesitating, and bringing up points and dropping them later. He still believes in it after Shea responds, stating that he's waiting for town to react to his play in his #290. LQ's #598 is a superficial re-evaluation of TSQ after his vote and push. He states that Shea is town via trusting Llama in his #1342. So this shows that his progression isn't genuine, he only cares to make a push on Shea and Lycan to seem town, which he drops at the drop of a hat.

His Lycan read also seems like a superficial re-evaluation. In his #999, Lycan is null, and in his #1342, Lycan is town for well thought out posts. In his #437 he states that Lycan is using colorful wording to create stories for motivation instead of looking at all possibilities. Now you see that, and then see a null read with no progression from LQ, and then it changes to town with the reasoning of 'he has well thought out posts'. There is a disconnect here. LQ's #437 actually seems good, it seems deeper then the superficial re-evaluation he gave, and I think that isn't genuine, it's a farce.

LQ votes Postie in his #1210, while having her as null in his #999. He never had a progression on her before then, no stated town read, and he himself had admitted to not knowing what it was. This comes after I posted a read on Postie being scum trying to seem town. I agree with Davsto that LQ's #1721 was over-eager, and he didn't intend to read the content, but rather just vote him as he glanced that it was weak. My biggest issue is his vote on me in his #1604. He votes me after RC states he'd want me lynched if Eddie is scum. This seems like LQ trying to fish for support on me without really trying to ruffle feathers. His explanation #1682 is that he wanted to see who would follow along, which is a weird way to go about voting a town read. Then he has silence when it comes to his previous reads on Shea and Lycan, which he FOS'd Day 1. It seemed odd that he did not comment during this phase of the day. In general, it feels like LQ is caught scum who continues to live longer then needed, and posts things to push for scum win condition rather then town win condition.

1. LQ's reads are not genuine. He has some good gems, but reconsiders them with superficial thought.
2. LQ isn't reading thoroughly, and snaps quickly to discredit rather then to determine alignment.
3. He has no progression for some of his reads, which shows he is hiding the truth (ie: he has no conclusions, but reads change anyway)

LQ is scum

.

Unvote; Vote: LQ

[Ranmaru]

Davsto, Dunnstral, NSG. Come aboard the Lick it Quick wagon.

[Ranmaru]

CES

: How confident are you in Eddie? Can you try harder with your reads on Shea and Lycanfire, your reasoning didn't sound convincing. What's your read on me?

LQ

: I see no stated read of Postie in the beginning. I just see a null read on Postie from you in your #598. You should explain your missing Lycanfire read.