TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

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Post Post #23 (isolation #0) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:11 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

The leaves of the treetops transform piercing rays to modest radiance
and modest radiance to feeble glow
Layered on top of each other, they create a mosaic of shadow.
Further down the trunk, the wind tickles the underside of leaves
the ones bleached one too many times in the cool rinse cycle of early fall
and they cling and do pirouettes off of their compliant branch.
As they flutter, the strands that tether them to the wood above tremble.

Two weeks later, I see a naked brown sculpture by the side of the road
where there once was a tree
I line up my sole with the cracked exoskeleton of a leaf, and
crunch
.
Fascinated, I watch as the wind peels flakes one by one from the sidewalk
and the husk disintegrates into the winter air.

Hi I'm Infinity and I'm mad I rolled town

VOTE: super for liking town

PEdit: wagon time ig
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Post Post #43 (isolation #1) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:49 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 37, Super wrote: how active are these games normally? I keep refreshing this thread but I'm slowly realising I probably am too active already lmao and I won't hear from people as quickly as I'm used to
Depends on the player, but I wouldn't sit there refreshing the thread. On average I'd say people post a few times per day.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #2) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:51 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

There were only 10 people who could get into this game, does everything hate mountainous nightless games? The best kind of game? Sigh
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Post Post #51 (isolation #3) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:53 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I like playing mafia not listen to the mod tell you who's scum simulator
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Post Post #64 (isolation #4) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:08 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 61, DkKoba wrote:no the townslip was real its me being town :(
Ok but you do fake townslips a lot right
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Post Post #76 (isolation #5) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:12 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Feel like scum are more likely to notice that the setup is nightless

Koba, explain the vote
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Post Post #82 (isolation #6) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:16 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Depending on meta, it's NAI yeah
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Post Post #86 (isolation #7) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:18 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

If you find something that scum is unlikely to think to fake, then it's towny

Or if they do analysis based on the mech mistake that seems very genuine

Etc
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Post Post #91 (isolation #8) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:19 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Lilith I like it when you post

PEdit: depends on what the specific slip is though.
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Post Post #96 (isolation #9) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:21 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Koba are you scum?

PEdit: lol
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Post Post #99 (isolation #10) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:22 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Hi this is infinity did you not read my opening post

It had a poem I spent a long time on it pls read
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Post Post #102 (isolation #11) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:23 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Do you normally expect me to come out of the gate scumhunting koba?
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Post Post #109 (isolation #12) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:27 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 105, DkKoba wrote:
In post 102, Autumn Leaves wrote:Do you normally expect me to come out of the gate scumhunting koba?
thats not why im voting u bud
Ok, I do think you'd probably be a bit more cautious around me as scum, but I don't feel like I've done much AI yet
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Post Post #268 (isolation #13) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:12 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 110, DkKoba wrote:town: super(based on entrance post solely), lilith,
kinda town:firebringer
Interesting, I had these same vibes
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Post Post #273 (isolation #14) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:27 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

VOTE: auro

I'm still on page 7 but I wanted to do this, chenn's reason for SRing auro feels like it matches up pretty well, and I've gotten good mileage out of emotional tells like those, even very early.
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Post Post #275 (isolation #15) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:35 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 190, Auro wrote:
In post 174, chennisden wrote:85 - justifying said bloc

106 - prematurely attempting to force someone to take the position of the opposition to said block
85 was a response to someone asking me to justify my position. You're saying my response justifying my position is manipulative?

106 was a general attack on DkKoba's disdain for early reads and not specific to his read on Super. And my "agenda" here is to form a bloc with Super, then force DkKoba to oppose my bloc with Super?
God and he's doing the thing where he addresses the individual points and not addressing the feeling behind it

This is what scum do

(Obviously it's difficult to address the feeling behind it but town generally respond to things like this with "wtf are you talking about")
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Post Post #278 (isolation #16) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:42 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 242, Ampharos wrote:Autumn Leaves (or Infinity, or whoever) - Approach feels somewhat cagey, and if Firebringer is town then I like this slot's posting about koba's "slip" a hell of a lot less - I think there's a tendency for scum to legitimately want to call things townslips if the person doing them is town, and I think that sharing such a thought is an easy way to contribute to the thread without much effort
I mean, I said it was NAI, did it look like I was trying to get solvy points for it?

I was mostly arguing with lilith about game theory
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Post Post #280 (isolation #17) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:46 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

makes me think "hmm this post would be cool if it came from scum", which usually means it came from scum.
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Post Post #282 (isolation #18) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:54 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Yeah, like the idea that it came from scum gives me a good feeling. If amph feels the same way, it's a scumtell.
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Post Post #285 (isolation #19) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:03 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Tell hopkirk that his read on me can start to have some validity once he stops quicklimming me.
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Post Post #288 (isolation #20) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:48 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Hectic and hopkirk should absolutely know that I play differently from game to game, both of them were either in or modding one night stand and ss3 where I played differently from both matrix decipher and each other. I hadn't even tried to solve until this morning so what gives? I would definitely expect hopkirk to approach reading me cautiously after being confident I'm scum in one night stand and being wrong.

Agree with the lilith TRs btw, she was pretty obvscum in the last game I played with her, maybe she has a way better scumgame than I thought but idk. The way she immediately was worried about me pocketing her felt natural.

Super is either town or very good at faking being natural I think
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Post Post #291 (isolation #21) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:08 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I had a whole conversation in postgame of one night stand where I said that my playstyle varies based on mood, etc. Even if I was intentionally trying to stick to my town meta, there isn't really a baseline "town!infinity" that's consistent across all games. Why would I intentionally play differently from my town meta as scum?

PEdit: @flopz
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Post Post #298 (isolation #22) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:15 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 294, Flopz wrote: complaining about the set-up
I was the only one who said I liked the setup though?

I'm still not sure why hop and hectic would SR me here for having stilted posts (are they much more stilted than my posts in other games?) but fine.

is basically saying: when I read amph's post, the first thing that came to my head was "wow, this would be a nice scum post". Since scum try to make nice scumposts, the fact that I felt that way probably makes amph >rand scum. This tell has worked a couple times before but I don't have enough of a sample for it to be reliable.
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Post Post #300 (isolation #23) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:19 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 297, Auro wrote:What do you gather was my intent behind "addressing" said individual points?
Unrelated question: is your team reading the game and discussing it? (I actually think this is a great question for everybody to answer in general)
Uncrowned feels that super, chenn, and lilith are town, but koba is scum. Kanna feels that koba is town. That's all people have had to say.

I think your intent was to try to argue against chenn's SR on you, since scum like to argue against points against them. Besides the "wtf" response, another town response could be ignoring it/shrugging at it.

Do you think me/chenn are scum together or what?

PEdit: so they agree with my top 2 scumreads but also think I'm scum?
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Post Post #303 (isolation #24) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:32 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Fair enough on both points, but why do you expect chenn to be able to explain his read logically in a way that you can sort if it's emotionally based?
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Post Post #307 (isolation #25) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:54 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

(psst koba if you give reasons for your vote you're more likely to get a response)

(Also I responded to your earlier vote so I'm not exactly sure what your getting at here)

Auro: sure. What have you seen that's scummy from chenn so far?
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Post Post #312 (isolation #26) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:30 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Town would be more likely to either brush it off or question it in a way that helps sort you. Auro says he was trying to sort you but it didn't feel that way to me. Yea auro likes arguing but it doesn't feel super important for town to argue against SRs on them this early.
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Post Post #318 (isolation #27) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:19 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 283, Flopz wrote:Hopkirk is on my case to just go out there and say that Infinity/AL is
baaaaaaaaaaad
.
In post 299, Flopz wrote: Hop had a vaguely neutral gut-read on infinity
Explain this flopz?
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Post Post #325 (isolation #28) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:40 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Do you have anything useful to say about it or are you just gonna LAMIST

PEdit: @auro
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Post Post #328 (isolation #29) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:54 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I will laugh so hard if flopz is scum making up all these discord conversations
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Post Post #350 (isolation #30) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:19 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Super how are you distinguishing between townies that TR you because you're towny and scum that TRs you because...you're towny
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Post Post #357 (isolation #31) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:23 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 350, Autumn Leaves wrote:Super how are you distinguishing between townies that TR you because you're towny and scum that TRs you because...you're towny
Making sure you don't miss this
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Post Post #361 (isolation #32) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:26 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 336, Ampharos wrote:unwnd agrees with my reads on chennis and firebringer and disagrees on AL - he thinks that his caginess is towny
This makes me feel much better about this slot oddly
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Post Post #373 (isolation #33) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:38 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I actually defended you a decent amount in matrix decipher, flopz.
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Post Post #381 (isolation #34) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:43 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Super if it helps I have a decently strong TR on koba and I have a pretty good history of correctly reading them.
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Post Post #385 (isolation #35) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:48 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

They feel messier than they usually are as scum, and I can feel them trying to keep scum on their toes. I also think they would approach me more cautiously as scum, and I liked some of their early vibes.
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Post Post #391 (isolation #36) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:51 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

@flopz I feel like I have been pretty assertive, last night I was mostly chilling since the game just started but I've been pushing auro pretty hard and I've been pushing your slot about the read on me as well.

(Also you're wrong about matrix decipher, reread it)
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Post Post #393 (isolation #37) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:54 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Koba I feel like you should be TRing me by now though lol
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Post Post #398 (isolation #38) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:00 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

@flopz Lol I just recently reread matrix and you're wrong that I SRed you in that game. I thought your tone was towny and I argued with pooky and others who thought it was manufactured. Maybe you're mixing me up with someone else?
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Post Post #401 (isolation #39) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:02 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 397, DkKoba wrote:
In post 393, Autumn Leaves wrote:Koba I feel like you should be TRing me by now though lol
No
Well if I'm scum here, I'm at least playing a better than I did in metal covers. I think this game could possibly be within my scumrange though so /shrug
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Post Post #403 (isolation #40) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:03 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Dude reread the game I got limmed d1 after I replaced in and the only SRs I had were pooky and taylor at the very very end
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Post Post #412 (isolation #41) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:35 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

What changed to make flopz town?
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Post Post #416 (isolation #42) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:38 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Ok, I think I agree but I wanna see how he approaches me going forward.
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Post Post #428 (isolation #43) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:51 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I think koba is town, see
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Post Post #435 (isolation #44) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:58 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 432, Flopz wrote:
In post 385, Autumn Leaves wrote:They feel messier than they usually are as scum, and I can feel them trying to keep scum on their toes. I also think they would approach me more cautiously as scum, and I liked some of their early vibes.
From my experience Koba can be messy af as town, are you saying it get's ever more so?
They are less messy as scum I think.
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Post Post #449 (isolation #45) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:06 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 445, Flopz wrote:Now this chain is getting messy. What message were you saying you didn't disagree with?

My initial question was in regard to your reaction to Super's post, whose post you were saying you did not like there. As it seems Super's post agreed with what you were saying in terms of Koba's bad (read as lack of) reasoning that you referenced in 129. So I wanted to know why you didn't like it?
This felt towny to me, like he's really putting in the effort to try and sort chenn
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Post Post #455 (isolation #46) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:54 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Koba

No one gives a shit about your garbage SRs if you don't explain them
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Post Post #503 (isolation #47) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:32 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Sigh

Chenn can you at least talk to me? Because I was gonna try to convince you that auro is still scum, but the feeling around the read is a bit similar to when I've been wrong on strong SRs in the past. So idk. I'm already struggling this game because I don't do well when people SR me, or when they don't engage with me, and both have been happening a lot this game. I also have too many TRs. I am pretty confident super is town based on the lilith read and the interactions with koba, so that's a place to start at least. But yeah my teammates are all busy and I need people to talk to.

Koba you know that I struggle when people SR me as town and don't engage with me so you continuing to do those things is pretty awful play.
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Post Post #509 (isolation #48) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:39 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

@chenn Mostly just want to know who you think is scum. I'm trying to find where my TRs are that are most likely to be wrong, johnny was one place but uncrowned agreed with my townlean there. (Basically the reasoning was I didn't think he was trying to look town.) I'm also curious what you think of amph and flopz.
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Post Post #519 (isolation #49) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:44 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I need to go to sleep soon, but I can talk in the morning
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Post Post #563 (isolation #50) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:17 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Koba feels quite different to their scumgame, they tend to be more LAMISTy and don't really do tunnels on UTRs from what I've seen. Maybe they've gotten good at manipulating their meta, but the gut feeling is hard to manipulate and that's the main reason I TR koba.

I've gotten some input from my teammates. Kanna is also comfortable with a koba TR, and uncrowned still thinks koba is scummy. Kanna and uncrowned share my suspicions of auro, which I'm still paranoid might be wrong, but w/e. Uncrowned agrees, and thinks that auro is asking a lot of busywork questions and not coming to many solid conclusions. Kanna is saying not to trust super, which makes me paranoid, then I read super's posts and I stop being paranoid. Uncrowned still thinks super is town and will likely be easy to sort later on if not (@koba is this true? I sorta like waiting until ELo to sort super). Neither kanna nor uncrowned liked flopz's push on me, with Uncrowned saying that one of flopz and koba is scum. Uncrowned pointed out that flopz's recent posts trying to get koba to cooperate looked town though. He didn't like that flopz SRed amph's and johnny's entrances, it looked surface level. Uncrowned also thinks fb could be scum by PoE. Uncrowned liked amph's reason to SR me and didn't think scum would take that angle. He thought chenn's towncase on super was very towny (I must have missed this?) and he's worried about lilith's activity dropping off.

@Auro: Why did you SR chenn originally, and what changed your mind? You never really talked about your reasons.
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Post Post #565 (isolation #51) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:52 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Kanna says she doesn't feel like you were being straightforward, I'll ask her what she means exactly.

The thing that confuses me is why you didn't out your SR on chenn right away. Presumably, if he's scum, he'll be able to guess that his SR on you is likely to be a part of your SR on him. What did you think would happen if you outed the read? And why didn't you out the read when you retracted the SR, especially since I had asked you about the read earlier? It felt like you were being unnecessarily cagey because you didn't have strong reasons to SR chenn in the first place. I'd expect town to out their reads by default for the sake of transparency, unless you're koba.
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Post Post #567 (isolation #52) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:24 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

UNVOTE: and you did talk a bit about your reasons for SRing chenn when you retracted the read. Oops

Something feels off about this game, I'm gonna try talking to people until I figure out what it is.
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Post Post #568 (isolation #53) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:53 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Ftr, ydrasse has spectated a bunch of super games and thinks she's town here.
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Post Post #569 (isolation #54) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:59 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Auro, kanna says that she doesn't know you very well and she's confused why you were interested in her read in particular. She agrees with uncrowned's assessment and thinks you've been beating around the bush in some of your posts. She's unsure why you think she could read you well because her only experience with you, you were scum together.
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Post Post #575 (isolation #55) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:44 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Kanna is paranoid of you just because she trusts koba, since she has a locktown read on koba. I still feel like you're both town though.

Ydrasse says that she doesn't remember which games she spectated of yours, but here she feels like you are not trying to drown people out but are really just focused on solving. She is a bit worried that koba is your top TR, since she thinks scum!you would try to pocket koba, but the way you came to the TR feels genuine to her anyway.
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Post Post #581 (isolation #56) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:57 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Kanna doesn't seem to be using her past experience with you very much to read you here, she doesn't feel like it's a good comparison since she already knew you were scum in that game.

Auro, who do you think is scum? What's your read on me at this point?
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Post Post #606 (isolation #57) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:20 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

This is going to be a pure vibes post, don't ask me to explain any of it but when I get reads on the gamestate they're usually pretty accurate

I think auro is town

I feel like there's a deepwolf, so I'm down to reconsider super later

{lilith/fb} + {amph/johnny} somehow make sense too
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Post Post #607 (isolation #58) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:21 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

VOTE: amph wagon time
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Post Post #611 (isolation #59) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:24 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 608, Firebringer wrote:where is everyone at with lilith? i was high townreading her earlier but norwee makes me go ???? and now i want discussion on it.
Idk she needs to post. I have her as >rand scum because her activity fell off but obviously there are other possible reasons for that
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Post Post #618 (isolation #60) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:44 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Sorry lilith :(
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Post Post #642 (isolation #61) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:02 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 639, Firebringer wrote:
In post 637, Flopz wrote:
In post 632, Firebringer wrote:
In post 629, Flopz wrote:Coolio, so have your AL reads changed or do you still think that they are a bit scummy? (I'm ref 227)
my autumn leaves read is about at same state as was before. yeah.
What exactly is you Autumn read as I think that's the only comment you've made about them and that's not excatly giving much info
I think autumn leaves is scum. I thought their entrance and interaction with lilith was how he would go about it as scum trying to pocket her. That initial vibe hasn't died but it is quelled in that he hasn't done anything directly that makes me think he is working for townreads or appease anyone, but at same time i think well maybe his alignment dependent on if lilith is scum or town and i want to get a good read there.
I don't think I would try to argue with someone about a theory point that we both agreed was not relevant to anyone's alignment in this game, if I was trying to pocket them. Unless this is solely based on
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Post Post #647 (isolation #62) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:07 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 644, Firebringer wrote:this was like based on first 4-5 pages; so that probably included it but i don't remember that post being a huge factor.
Ok but nothing else I said to lilith remotely resembled pocketing so can you look at this again when you get the chance
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Post Post #649 (isolation #63) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:08 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Honestly it really bothers me how much people are focused on my entrance because I basically wasn't playing the game at that point
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Post Post #660 (isolation #64) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:14 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 652, Super wrote:
In post 649, Autumn Leaves wrote:Honestly it really bothers me how much people are focused on my entrance because I basically wasn't playing the game at that point
does it bother you because you're town or because you're scum and don't like that reasoning for their read on you :P?
It'd probably bother me less if I was scum, because being SRed would actually kinda be my fault and I could do things to try and get TRed. Also I got quicklimmed in my last town game for having a scummy entrance so it's kind of a sore spot.
In post 653, Firebringer wrote:infinity where do u think u actually started plying and when u want people to begin their read analysis from?
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Post Post #663 (isolation #65) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:15 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 657, Super wrote:VOTE: Vote: Autumn Leaves

first vote of the game idek if I'm doing it correctly... but ...damn I just read Leafy's intro again and it's bad. anything you have to say for yourself Leaf-o????
Ok but why
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Post Post #671 (isolation #66) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:24 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 663, Autumn Leaves wrote:
In post 657, Super wrote:VOTE: Vote: Autumn Leaves

first vote of the game idek if I'm doing it correctly... but ...damn I just read Leafy's intro again and it's bad. anything you have to say for yourself Leaf-o????
Ok but why
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Post Post #686 (isolation #67) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:35 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 680, Super wrote:
In post 671, Autumn Leaves wrote:
In post 663, Autumn Leaves wrote:
In post 657, Super wrote:VOTE: Vote: Autumn Leaves

first vote of the game idek if I'm doing it correctly... but ...damn I just read Leafy's intro again and it's bad. anything you have to say for yourself Leaf-o????
Ok but why
I just don't like it. it's stiff and fillery, why did you enter the thread so awfully???
Probably because I was excited for team mafia starting and usually when I get excited about something I'm also nervous. I'm not exactly sure how you expected me to respond here? I don't even know which part of it you thought was bad, the being mad about rolling town, or the poem, or something else
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Post Post #689 (isolation #68) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:39 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 687, Super wrote:you think your early posts had nervous energy to them?
I mean, I was nervous when I wrote them, so probably
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Post Post #692 (isolation #69) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:41 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 686, Autumn Leaves wrote:Probably because I was excited for team mafia starting and usually when I get excited about something I'm also nervous
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Post Post #696 (isolation #70) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:51 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Spoiler: a bit about me
I'm a nervous person. Idk why, but whenever there's a lot of stimulation, or I've been thinking about something a lot in advance, my first response is to be nervous. Maybe I'm worried that it won't go as well as I imagined it, like you said. Sometimes I really look forward to something and it only goes ok and I hate it when that happens. I also could be worried that I'll put a lot of pressure on myself and it will make me perform worse, since I don't perform well under pressure. I know it doesn't make a ton of sense because it's just a mafia game but I really wanna do well and I often put pressure on myself when it doesn't make sense to do so.


Ok that was a bit personal but I hope it helps
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Post Post #702 (isolation #71) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:01 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Honestly it did kinda look like a reaction test. But I try not to get upset at people if I think they're engaging me in good faith. Like my first thought was "ugh come on" but I don't think it's helpful to respond in that way
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Post Post #705 (isolation #72) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:07 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Tough question but I'd have to say amph
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Post Post #725 (isolation #73) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:24 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 717, chennisden wrote:This is also how I won a lot of my scumgames when I still played. I didn't try to create bad vibes early on, I just let town do whatever they wanted, bantered, and tried to create "good vibes" (and made sure I was part of the "group.") I am concerned that this is happening to the game right now.
Hard agree with this take, I'm voting amph right now because I don't know who's scum inside the townbloc/activitybloc and I think amph is the most likely scum outside of it.
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Post Post #760 (isolation #74) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:14 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I think partners could do what they're doing tbh
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Post Post #764 (isolation #75) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:28 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Tbh I kinda thought chenn's rhymes were better

Try TRing me next time fb, you might have better luck
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Post Post #778 (isolation #76) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:54 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Now is a perfect time to re-evaluate your read on me!
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Post Post #781 (isolation #77) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:58 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Idk but usually it's more of a process than that? And usually engaging with people helps
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Post Post #783 (isolation #78) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:02 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

No and I should've expected that to be something you would do.

Do you have any reads you want to talk about atm?
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Post Post #785 (isolation #79) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:14 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I went back and looked over his ISO quickly, there are a few things that make me feel good about him. One is which uncrowned pointed out and I felt it was very towny. Another is that he keeps pressing fb for giving content, and is really following up on his questions in general. Scum can do that, but when I played with scum!flopz before he didn't feel this intent on having his questions answered. I also liked that he backed off me to re-evaluate, but I'd like to see how he approaches reading me going forward. I'd call him a lean town.
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Post Post #787 (isolation #80) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:31 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

With me? Idk, I didn't get much out of it in the end. My teammates didn't like the push on me, but in the end flopz and his teammates re-evaluate, and a bunch of the reasoning for the push was based on misremembering from a previous game anyway.
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Post Post #790 (isolation #81) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:34 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Oh lmao I thought you were addressing fb/chenn lol

I don't think there's much AI from that, I could see fb as scum here but I'm not sure there's much concrete that he'd be doing based on alignment, but yeah I get vague scumvibes from him
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Post Post #799 (isolation #82) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:30 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I'm confused how anyone is getting anything AI from the 1v1 it's literally just memes

Also, I can't really explain my scumvibes on fb, I have this feeling that he's using his attitude/tone to try to get TRs
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Post Post #1124 (isolation #83) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1121, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 876, Auro wrote:However I'm expecting AL to adopt a more aggressive inquisitive style right now after his recognition that something's off and said he'll talk to people to figure it out, but his posts in recent pages seem to be laid-back.
Well given that I'm more unsure, I'm probably going to be less aggressive. I'm also hoping more people will post (johnny, lilith, amph)
In post 1122, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 968, DkKoba wrote:ya screenshot all u want ill put it in my sig when im right >.<
Ok but this isn't allowed
In post 1123, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 1070, Firebringer wrote:look at his post of 156; at tht point i think he waas trying to give too much on a read to say he had a read when he didn't haave anything. In other words tried harder to put words to postings to justify read when nothing existed. and when he dove more into it 174 i don't feel he believes u were scum originally or his interaction screams he is talking to an actual scumread.
Would it help if I said I had the same read as chenn at the time? To me it just reads as a gut read he couldn't articulate that well and I get those kinds of reads all the time
Wow those pages were useless. Except lilith is still towny, so that's good.
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Post Post #1133 (isolation #84) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:47 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

:O Hi murdercat! I'm impressed lol
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Post Post #1139 (isolation #85) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:08 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Murder you're silly because you played with scum!koba in student council but ok. (Ok yeah they did replace out d1)

Lilith was obvscum when I played against scum!her, though she was also suck for a decent amount of it, I still think it would be difficult for her to be so much more assertive here as scum.
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Post Post #1145 (isolation #86) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:48 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1142, DkKoba wrote:@infinity do you have any other conclusions with ur catchup?
I think fb might be scum, his heart really doesn't feel in the chenn SR, and I think if he was town and his heart wasn't in it he probably wouldn't bother posting it.
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Post Post #1149 (isolation #87) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:55 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1147, Firebringer wrote:
In post 1145, Autumn Leaves wrote:
In post 1142, DkKoba wrote:@infinity do you have any other conclusions with ur catchup?
I think fb might be scum, his heart really doesn't feel in the chenn SR, and I think if he was town and his heart wasn't in it he probably wouldn't bother posting it.
dude. do u ever know where my heart is. real question
No but I can tell it's not in that chenn case.
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Post Post #1156 (isolation #88) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:13 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Congrats johnny!

As far as a summary goes, koba has been tunneled on super for most of the game, me and chenn were SRing auro at the beginning but backed off, flopz and his buddies were SRing me at the beginning, but then backed off because part of the case was based on misremembering meta. Koba was also SRing me but lately they've been re-evaluating a lot of reads. Lilith hasn't really been here but she came back recently. I'm re-evaluating a bunch of reads since my early take on the game felt off. The game seems to be kinda resetting since a bunch of people are coming back and/or re-evaluating. Amph hasn't been here and we're wagoning her for pressure I guess. Chenn and fb got into a meme-y 1v1 which people are trying to get reads from for some reason. Most people TR koba and super.

Lilith, what are your reads on flopz and chenn?

I don't have a reason to TR auro except him being scum doesn't feel right, nothing he's doing has seemed particularly motivated by solving. So idk.
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Post Post #1158 (isolation #89) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:15 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

It was an accident
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Post Post #1210 (isolation #90) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:50 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Super do you still think you would be bussing in this setup where scum lose if they get down to 1 member?
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Post Post #1254 (isolation #91) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:33 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I'd also prefer if you condensed the early game stuff into one post and spoilered it
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Post Post #1272 (isolation #92) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:57 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Auro, can you link a scumgame of lilith's that was somewhat similar to this game?
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Post Post #1281 (isolation #93) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:08 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1280, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 1272, Autumn Leaves wrote:Auro, can you link a scumgame of lilith's that was somewhat similar to this game?
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Post Post #1303 (isolation #94) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:26 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1284, Auro wrote:viewtopic.php?f=54&t=82824 @AL: I'm not saying her play is similar but it's a nice read.
She has a lot less passion/drive/something here. I guess one of the towniest things about lilith's play to me was that you could see how her annoyance about being SRed while she was away showed in her scumhunting. She started SRing you, auro, and the way she's not letting it go also felt very towny to me. Anyway, I think it's very towny behavior in a vacuum, and in the absence of evidence that scum!lilith behaves similarly, I think lilith is just town.
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Post Post #1304 (isolation #95) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:28 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Chenn/koba/lilith/flopz are my confident townreads
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Post Post #1315 (isolation #96) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:41 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1307, Auro wrote:
In post 1304, Autumn Leaves wrote:Chenn/koba/lilith/flopz are my confident townreads
So do you still feel something's wrong, or do you have higher clarity now? What about scumreads, I'm more interested in them :P
I think I've decided that it's pretty likely that the "something wrong" is that super is scum. I'm not planning to push her anytime soon, or maybe ever, because black flag. I don't really have anything to base this off besides the fact that I don't see anyone else who could be a deepwolf (koba is the only other UTR, and I'm confident they're town). But yeah, I think I'm getting a bit more clarity. Besides that, my strongest SR is probably fb, and that's not really a strong SR. I'm planning to approach this game by PoE mostly.

Wrt lilith, I'm not sure why you're taking the attitude of "agree to disagree" here. I've convinced myself that lilith is a strong TR of mine, and you think my reasoning is faulty. I need evidence of that, whether it's games or some other argument. Part of why I'm still suspicious of you is that you seem pretty passive wrt things like this.
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Post Post #1319 (isolation #97) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:55 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1317, Auro wrote:Does the Super!scum universe lead to any associatives from her posts from your PoV?
Is your scumread on FB mostly that his Chenn push feels half hearted, or is there something else? No one else you moderately scumread?
I'm not confident enough super is scum to use associatives here really. That's the main reason I can articulate wrt fb, I also sorta felt like he was using his tone/attitude to look town, but I don't really have good evidence for that besides vibes. I guess I also had a slight scumlean on amph based on her opening post, but I really need more from her. Idk, I just don't have confident scumreads right now and I think PoE is going to be an easier way of solving this game.

Wrt lilith, ok I guess

From now on, I'm gonna attempt to post less in order to make it easier for people to catch up, and I hope other people do the same.
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Post Post #1331 (isolation #98) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:08 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Koba remember when in bending, I felt like something was off about the game and I didn't know what it was? And flavor ended up being scum that game? Same thing happened in student council. I really trust my ability to determine whether or not there is a deepwolf in the game and super is the only possible deepwolf fmpov.

@Koba What block do you think wins?

@Auro I absolutely would join a super wagon, I just don't think that will happen and have no way of convincing people super is scum. It's not passive because I'm actively pushing my other reads (mostly TRs).
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Post Post #1336 (isolation #99) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:11 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1333, Super wrote:@Leafy, why am I mafia other than being a...deepwolf? huh? do you have any reason to scumread me?
No, I just trust my intuition that much.
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Post Post #1339 (isolation #100) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:16 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I'm pretty good, I'm feeling motivated about this game again.
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Post Post #1543 (isolation #101) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:37 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1409, lilith2013 wrote:
In post 273, Autumn Leaves wrote:VOTE: auro

I'm still on page 7 but I wanted to do this, chenn's reason for SRing auro feels like it matches up pretty well, and I've gotten good mileage out of emotional tells like those, even very early.
what was your read on chennis at the time? did you have a read on auro or was this just sheeping or? this feels like you are just not particularly invested in this vote
I was townreading chenn at the time, but only for this mindmeld. I'm not sure the wording conveyed my feeling accurately, it was more like "I think chenn's reasons for voting auro are correct and I think auro is scum as a result". I was actually pretty invested in this vote.
Can you explain what you mean by "super is town based on the lilith read and the interactions with koba," and also explain how your read changed to where you think she might be scum?
Not sure why, but I felt that scum re-evaluating a read like that would seem more agenda-based, and when I saw super mention towny things of yours while doubting the townread felt +town to me. I also thought posts like read very genuine, the way super was approaching koba felt hard to fake. I started to doubt this read in , and kinda solidified it when auro drew my attention to it in . It doesn't make a lot of sense based on super's play, but I trust myself when I feel that there's a deepwolf.
In post 1124, Autumn Leaves wrote:Except lilith is still towny, so that's good.
What made you say this?
I explained it best in .
Can you describe what you've been doing up to this point in the game in terms of "re-evaluating"? What was the progressions of your reads/results of your reevaluation when you posted this?
A super!scum world had started to click in my head by this point, and I was TRing auro, which I think were the main changes from before the re-evaluation. I'm TRing auro a bit more strongly now for his efforts to get me back in the game emotionally. I was waiting for you, johnny, and amph to post more to sort those slots, and started to TR you again since I liked your posting.
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Post Post #1544 (isolation #102) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:40 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1410, lilith2013 wrote:so where exactly was this discussion on townslips going?? why keep discussing it if he thought koba would be a person who would try to fake it? how was continuing to talk about townslips going to help him sort anyone if he already knew/thought that it shouldn't be town-indicative of koba because koba would be someone who fakes slips?
I'm opinionated about mafia-related things, and when someone says something I disagree with (you basically said "townslips don't count as towntells") I feel compelled to argue with them. Eventually I said something like "depends on the type of townslip" because the engagement wasn't useful and I didn't want to get into it
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Post Post #1545 (isolation #103) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:45 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 406, Flopz wrote:
In post 403, Autumn Leaves wrote:Dude reread the game I got limmed d1 after I replaced in and the only SRs I had were pooky and taylor at the very very end
I'm so stupid, my bad. I've been mistaking you for Bell in that game in terms of pushing me. I'm gonna need to rethink a lot now so in the interrim
UNVOTE: Autumn Leaves
@Lilith This seemed to be important to flopz's read on me
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Post Post #1546 (isolation #104) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:05 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1443, Super wrote: WHY would you want to go for a deepwolf on d1 fucking one in black flag when you're saying there could be no other deepwolves MEANING even if I am scum this is so fucking bizarre of you to do since you can literally still lynch in your PoE and you'd win???????
I'm not sure what to say to this post besides I'm not going after you? I just feel like you're >rand scum because of vibes, I think you've played towny but there's nothing in particular that's stopping you from being scum. I'd vote for you because I trust my vibes, but you're right, I don't need to elim scum!you to win the game otherwise I'd be pushing you harder.
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Post Post #1547 (isolation #105) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:11 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Super what's the difference between your read on fire and my read on you?
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Post Post #1548 (isolation #106) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:29 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I get that it's hard to have someone SR you when they can't articulate their reasons, but when I have a gut scumread on someone I'm not gonig to drop it just because I can't come up with specific reasons when I've had so much success using gut in the past.

Ok except now you gave me an actual reason to SR you, because in that towngame you linked you have a much more all-over-the-place vibe that you have here.

I looked back and my reasons for TRing flopz and they didn't feel very good, so idk. I'll have to ISO him again I guess.
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Post Post #1578 (isolation #107) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:02 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1573, chennisden wrote:Maybe I havent played mafia for a while or Im not the most mechanical player but I dont know why people keep talking about how "it's black flag so we can just elect not to kill X/Y" or more commonly "its black flag you dont even have to kill me"

Is this actually setup optimization? Or are we just using it as another reason/excuse/etc to say not to kill someone
I mean, you don't have to elim every scum because of the setup. But super is saying that I shouldn't vote her, even if I think she's scum, because I can just find her partners, which is ??
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Post Post #1612 (isolation #108) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:49 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

VOTE: mena

Sheeping pre-replace-in mena
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Post Post #1616 (isolation #109) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:53 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1613, Firebringer wrote:
In post 1612, Autumn Leaves wrote:VOTE: mena

Sheeping pre-replace-in mena
what
Well, mena said that he thought he was replacing into a scumslot. Mena is a strong player and I trust his opinions about things. Therefore, I think he replaced into a scumslot.

Seriously though, I think mena is scum here
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Post Post #1626 (isolation #110) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:57 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1591, Menalque wrote:Chennis has been super reasonable and I’ve liked some of his posting a lot. He was playing peacekeeper at one point between koba/super i think, but he’s still in the active scumpool for a few reasons. One, he has a very good scumgame and being reasonable, while nice to have around, isn’t actually town indicative.
This stuff feels really fake, if it's not AI then why even bring it up

Your other reasons for possibly suspecting chenn are very weak and it doesn't feel like you believe them, it feels like you are making up reasons to keep him in the scumpool

PEdit: "I thought I was replacing into a scumslot" is actually something scum do quite a bit, though I really think they shouldn't.
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Post Post #1640 (isolation #111) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:11 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1628, Menalque wrote:Because it plays into how I perceive him and I think people who are TRing chenn are potentially mistaking the reasonableness of his posting for towniness?

What’s weak about my other reasons for suspecting chenn? And why are you starting off by treating me in bad faith here?
The first part, ok you could've said that. And also I don't think people are really TRing him for being reasonable but w/e

You wrote like a few sentences about how chenn is scummy for TRing both of our slots, which is really weak because it assumes that 1. I'm town 2. chenn wouldn't TR both of us as town (you acknowledge this but I think a better way to resolve it would be to question chenn on his reads) and 3. chenn would find it beneficial to TR both of us as scum (which I don't necessarily agree with, I think scum could try to take control of the game here because there's a lot of uncertainty)

Also, I'm approaching you in bad faith because you're scum :)
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Post Post #1642 (isolation #112) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:13 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Mena now that I know you're scum how do I get people to vote you? After PyP I've been working on my charisma. I've tried jumping up and down and waving my arms, but that hasn't been very effective so far. Apparently people can't see me through their screen or something.
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Post Post #1661 (isolation #113) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:42 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1660, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 1650, Menalque wrote:Okay soooooo what do you think people are TRing him for then?
Well lilith is TRing him for going against the flow, I'm TRing him for not trying to look town and mindmelding with me, auro is TRing him from the emotion he displayed in their exchange, idk if anyone else articulated a TR on him.
why is this the better way to approach things? Like I think it’s p noteworthy when someone is diverging in terms of their townreads from what consensus is, and it’s different to when someone diverges from consensus about a scumread. I don’t need to ask chenn about the reads to note that in terms of gamestate.
I just, don't think you would jump from "his reads are different and scum would likely have those reads right now" to "he's scum". Emotionally, I think you'd give more weight to a chenn who's town and right than "if you're right oops I'm sorry"
why do that when if super/koba are town then trying to take control of the gamestate causes a big conflict between you? Like imo it would be much better to wait for info, make sure you’re on the right side of the new info, and then contest for control. Also, there doesn’t seem to be that much uncertainty to me, rightly or wrongly. Like I feel as if super and koba are relatively consensus TRs, with a second tier of lili and auro and maaaaaybe chenn for some, and then the rest of us below that are the mixer of reads
I think scum could try to take control at this point because super seems pretty unsure about stuff, and no one is really listening to koba anyway. I get that you have an opinion about what it would be correct to do as scum, but I don't think you would apply that so confidently to chenn here when maybe he just disagrees with you. Also I feel like me, koba, and chenn are/have been in an uncertain spot where we're re-evaluating reads, super always seems to be re-evaluating, fire hasn't really given many reads. And neither has johnny.
And like re: bad faith... that seems radically different from anything I’ve seen from you before? And also profoundly unhelpful given that I’m not scum?
I didn't really approach lilith/S&M in good faith in PyP, I was confident enough they were scum that I was mostly just trying to get them limmed. Part of that was that she wasn't really posting, but I can link other examples of me just being confident enough in a SR that nothing they can really say will convince me since it's mostly a gut read anyway. I get that it's early to have such a confident read, but something just clicked for me. I'm sorry if you're town, I just...don't think that's the case.
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Post Post #1687 (isolation #114) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:09 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Super literally there were no other UTRs other than koba, lilith wasn't UTR at the time, neither was flopz or chenn. Koba I have experience with and know that this isn't how they play as scum, I considered chenn too but I really don't think chenn is scum because he's not playing with an agenda, and he felt the same way about the game and he expressed certain things that I really vibed with (ex. auro scumread) before I did

Also you're not all over the place in the same way in this game at all, your emotions have been smooth and sensible

The idea that mena is an easy target is absurd.

Calling me bad is pretty uncalled for, I'm making an honest effort to play based on what's been effective for me in the past and you don't have to like it but don't insult me for it thanks
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Post Post #1689 (isolation #115) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:12 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I think it's pretty clear you're gonna fight back against SRs at this point though?
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Post Post #1705 (isolation #116) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:24 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

https://epicmafia.com/topic/96118?page= ... ht=3411997
https://epicmafia.com/topic/96118?page= ... ht=3412147 (this is the best example, nothing you've posted this game is this awkward)
https://epicmafia.com/topic/96118?page= ... ht=3412251

These are example of how you're more "all over the place" in the other game, I don't even know if other people will see the difference I'm talking about but it's a very different vibe from this game

PEdit: mena I think you're making up bullshit because I don't think you believe scum!me, with the position I'm in in this game, would think I can get you mislimmed before you start obvtowning
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Post Post #1721 (isolation #117) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:32 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1709, Super wrote:Autumn answer my stuff about UTR
Oh sorry UTR means universal townread

Also, it's like your whole ISO that feels different to me? Like is one example, I thought it was genuine at the time, but it's like what I expect you to be feeling in response to koba if that makes sense. Whereas in the other game your emotions were different from anything I was expecting.

Kanna tells me she feels the same vibes as me on mena and he feels like one night stand where he was scum.
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Post Post #1729 (isolation #118) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:35 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Super I get that you clearly don't understand my reasons for SRing you, in some ways I don't really understand them either. I rely on them because gut is my best tool to find who scum is. But it can change. I feel like if you're town, you should try to understand my reasons for SRing you instead of getting upset and calling me scum for it.

Also ydrasse says mena is scumclaiming lol
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Post Post #1750 (isolation #119) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:43 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1730, Firebringer wrote:game aside i think super and nancy drew 39 would really get along
Lol now this is reminding me of something which is making me doubt my read

Super I'm sorry if I'm wrong about you being scum but also I wasn't even pushing you so I feel like your reaction isn't really fair

Also it's valid reasoning for me I don't really give a fuck if other people agree with me, I will scumhunt in the way I think is most effective
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Post Post #1797 (isolation #120) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:00 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1757, Super wrote:your scumhunting sucks though dude? having an intuition gut read ISNT FUCKING SCUMHUNTING AND IF THIS CONSTITUTES AS SCUMHUNTING TO YOU THEN I'M SO DONE WITH YOU THIS GAME - cos if you are town how will we ever win with you not reading my posts and just having gut shit to go by?
I mean of course I'd read your posts and I could reconsider. You can say my scumhunting sucks all you want, but you can look at my meta and it's full of example of me having a gut read that I can't really articulate, and it's often right. So that's why I trust my gut. I'm gonna think about the read some more, can you like, take a breath and try to see where I'm coming from?
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Post Post #1815 (isolation #121) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:08 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1804, Super wrote:its so low energy in comparison to this and is a bullshit comparison to have been made
He was sick and V/LA for a large part of the game, and when he came back he had a lot of energy
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Post Post #1818 (isolation #122) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:09 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1811, chennisden wrote:By the way I think the most important slot to sort right now is Auro, and I think in particular Auro-Super interactions are worth examining.
What does auro-town say in your opinion?
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Post Post #1886 (isolation #123) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:48 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Mena, is there a reason you think I'm scum besides that I have a strong SR on you out of the gate? It doesn't feel like you're trying to accurately sort me, and it doesn't feel like you're exercising any caution wrt my slot despite talking about how you were wrong about me last time. Especially because you're upset at koba for not being cautious around you in the same way.

I'm not really sure why people are talking about a me/chenn team, like wouldn't that be too obvious? The reasons we have agreed on so much are in the thread, from the time we both SRed auro early on, to the time we both had paranoia and were re-evaluating lots of reads at the same time. I considered that he could be pocketing me, but I think it's more likely we're just both town and have come to similar conclusions about the game.
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Post Post #1889 (isolation #124) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:50 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1870, Super wrote:just in my car about to drive but realised autumn has a player on their team that knows me

autumn what's ydrasse's read on me?
Last thing ydrasse said about you was that she was doubting her TR on you. I feel like my teammates don't really have enough time to keep up with the game properly so are trusting my reads to some extent, or are at least influenced by my reads a lot. But I will take into account her first instinct which was that you were town.
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Post Post #1916 (isolation #125) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:07 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1891, Menalque wrote:I mean it’s not just that you’re scumreading me it’s that I made a fair effort (i think) to try to engage you about that read and where it was coming from and I think you avoided that and tried to justify your approach to me by saying “well yeah I am kinda treating you in bad faith but it’s because I’m p confident ur scum” and I think u having that level of confidence about my slot is v unnatural based on what I/my predecessor posted by that point
Ok but I
was
engaging you, and
you
were the one who broke off the interaction. Yeah, sometimes I have confident SRs, and sometimes I can be stubborn about them. Usually they're on scum though. It's just a very scum thing to do to stop trying to sort someone and start pushing them as scum when you realize they won't change their mind. I don't think town!you got enough info to accurately sort me here.
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Post Post #1919 (isolation #126) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:10 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I will say that I didn't like how flopz said "scum is super/mena or chenn/inf" where that seems to easy to me. Scum aren't always people who defend/fight alongside each other, and flopz should know that.

Mena: I'm curious what unwnd's read on me is at this point
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Post Post #1938 (isolation #127) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:30 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Mena, if you're town and I'm town, you lose...a mislim by pushing me. So yeah I'd expect you to try to accurately sort me. If you want me to provide evidence of town!me both pushing confident scumreads early in the game and having difficulty articulating them, I can do that.
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Post Post #1941 (isolation #128) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:37 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1939, lilith2013 wrote:infinity, what would you say your degree of confidence is on super vs mena? can you articulate any differences between the two reads?
I'm significantly more confident on mena. On super it's very vague, it's still a strong instinct which I feel like I should trust but I've been doubting it recently. Whereas mena it's like, he had fake reads upon replacing in, he usually obvtowns when he's pushed on and hasn't done that here, and he didn't really make efforts to sort me despite being unsure about me at first. So I feel like I have a lot more concrete on mena.
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Post Post #1951 (isolation #129) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:59 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1942, lilith2013 wrote:Can you describe what “him usually obvtowning when pushed on” looks like and how he’s different here?
Full disclosure, PyP is the only time I played with town!mena, but like

Do you remember when he almost got limmed because of your guilty and went into super solvy mode at the very end and everyone unvoted? Another time I remember him obvtowning is when hoopla pushed on him a bit d4 and he basically went ballistic, yelling that hoopla was scum and needed to die. Best way I can describe it is that he feels like he's playing his town game except in 480p. You can see the basic idea, but it's not as sharp/clear as usual.
In post 1943, lilith2013 wrote:Also what about his reads seemed fake to you?
and talk about how I felt the chenn SR was fake, I'll talk about some other things later tonight
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Post Post #1977 (isolation #130) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:20 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Kanna just says vibes and you feel like one night stand

Ydrasse asks you to refer back to where she said you were scumclaiming
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Post Post #1980 (isolation #131) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:48 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Ydrasse didn't give any other reason lol. I think she's reading but idk how closely.

Kanna said that your replacing in reads didn't feel genuine, and putting me at null felt like a way to appease me while keeping me as a possible mislim later.
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Post Post #1984 (isolation #132) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:56 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I didn't hard TR you until lategame though, when you stopped pushing me

PEdit: idk I guess
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Post Post #1987 (isolation #133) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:16 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Ok I think I TRed you after the guilty and you did the solvy thing when you were about to die

Point being, I wasn't hard TRing you when you were pushing me, and I specifically remember being skeptical of you posting reads from before you replaced in
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Post Post #1990 (isolation #134) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:54 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I still didn't hard TR you, but I believe that you thought I did.
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Post Post #1992 (isolation #135) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:56 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Yes I treat townread!mena and scumread!mena very differently who knew
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Post Post #2000 (isolation #136) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:08 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I remember having you as a townlean, but it's possible I misremembered? Why the hell would I lie about that? I have my own solid reasons to SR you, I don't need to cling to kanna's like that. I also changed the way I approach SRs since then, especially once I get to a certain level of confidence. I think it's because I had a bunch of confident correct scumreads in a row.
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Post Post #2004 (isolation #137) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:13 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=85406 look at how I approach gimli here

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84991 and how I approach isis/gloria here on d2


You know my reads are largely based on gut anyway, and you know I have reasons beyond the chenn read to SR your readslist, I just haven't given them because you're not interested. I also tried to engage scum!flavor head on in one night stand, so clearly my lack of confident wrt tryharding scum has changed since then, you just chose to ignore that evidence.
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Post Post #2006 (isolation #138) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:17 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2002, Menalque wrote:WHAT are your “own solid reasons to SR [me]”? I haven’t even talked at all about kanna’s reasons in the past couple of posts, so why are you focusing on that and not on what I’m actually saying?
Kanna said that it felt like you were appeasing me when I put you at null. You said that I was hard TRing you in PyP for pushing on you, so why would you appease me like that. I said I wasn't hard TRing you. That's how the exchange started, and my question is why the hell I would lie about hard TRing you.

I do think this behavior is what I would expect from town!mena, I'm not sure why it only showed up after I laid it out explicitly, but I'll think over some things tonight.

I need to take a break for an hour or two.
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Post Post #2017 (isolation #139) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:23 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Last post to mena and then I'm done.

I have a problem with confidence. Specifically, how much confidence I should assign to my scumreads. I think my gut is a really strong tool for finding scum, but it's difficult to use properly. Obviously, it's not always right, and it's difficult to engage with the reasons why my gut pings when it does. What I haven't figured out yet is when I just need to trust my gut, and when I need to re-evaluate. When I'm wrong, and when I need to push scum until they die. For every wrong scumread I tunnel into the ground, I have at least one correct scumread that just sort of...dissipates (hoopla in PyP was a perfect example). The way I felt about mena when he replaced in was that he was absolutely 100% scum. It was a much closer feeling to my correct scumreads than to my incorrect scumreads, to the extent that I can tell the difference. It felt very different from the gimli and gloria scumreads that I linked above. I also happened to have a decent amount of evidence to support my point. But to be completely honest, me having evidence that I can cite for someone being scum doesn't correlate very highly with them having a red role pm. My gut does. In silent star 3 (linked above) I really felt that isis was scum, and she kept responding to my scumread with possible reasons why I could be wrongly scumreading her. Eventually, it got to the point where I gave up trying to explain the read and wrote a poem about it. Because to me, she was completely avoiding the core reason why she was scum, and that was my gut. And yes, gut is impossible to respond to, but at some point that's how it is. Sometimes, the best time to re-evaluate is in postgame.

Right now, I'm still debating whether to re-evaluate mena. To be perfectly honest, the last couple pages gave me doubt on my mena SR. He seemed to be using information that he knew about my playstyle to read me here, which is a towny thing to do. He also had a sort of fire in him that seems pretty difficult to fake. Then again, I do think mena would be very motivated here as scum, and I remember being impressed by the fire he had in him in One Night Stand where he was scum. Kanna, who has more experience with scum!mena than I do, is still convinced that he's scum here. I also have PyP!mena in the back of my head saying "don't townread me for that!". And given that I laid out a lot of what scum!mena had to do to get me to townread him here, I don't see why he isn't just scum.

More about mena's entrance reads later, for lilith.
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Post Post #2020 (isolation #140) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:15 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Ok I'll do other stuff tomorrow I need to go to sleep
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Post Post #2253 (isolation #141) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:16 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

This game is depressing, I though I had read up and then missed page 88 which was a S L O G

Super can you try to edit your posts to make them more readable

viewtopic.php?p=12498863&user_select%5B ... #p12498863
Starting from here, this is scum!mena being aggressive/motivated, though it didn't last as long as I thought
viewtopic.php?p=12499568#p12499568 this post is a good example

viewtopic.php?p=12293272#p12293272 Mena obvtowning under pressure
viewtopic.php?p=12347981#p12347981 Mena being very aggressive under pressure as town
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Post Post #2254 (isolation #142) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:23 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2191, Super wrote:can you explain your townread fully on Chen to me Autumn? I want to know where it comes from and if you can go deeper on it
Besides the mindmeld stuff, I have no idea what he's doing here as scum. He seems to be putting a lot of effort into thinking about the game, but not in a way that's likely to get townread (he's not coming to a lot of solid conclusions/not obviously being "solvy") and he's not taking control of the game in spots where (imo) scum could've come in and taken control since a lot of people were unsure about reads.
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Post Post #2255 (isolation #143) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:29 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Super I know this is WIFOM but I could come up with some bullshit reasons to SR you if I wanted, it would make me look a lot better but gut is the reason I think you're scum. And I'm still not 100% sure on it but it's frustrating that you keep saying I'm scum because I can't explain the read, even though I kinda get it. There's actually nothing I can do though
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Post Post #2257 (isolation #144) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:10 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Sure
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Post Post #2261 (isolation #145) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:23 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2019, chennisden wrote:1) If anyone interacted with me like this (picking little ends from past games or whatever), I would be screaming "who cares?? who cares!!!!!" I find it somewhat odd that you didn't do it here.
Yeah I think at some point I was just arguing and forgot the purpose behind it

I think it seemed important to mena so I felt compelled to respond
2) I kind of dont see how you got Menalque scum at the point you did? I mean you could say the same thing about me with Auro from page 5 or whatever, but I feel like a gutread wouldnt feel the way your read did?
Idk what to say, I had a very confident SR right off the bat.
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Post Post #2264 (isolation #146) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:26 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Why is flopz town chenn? I was starting to have doubts about him, uncrowned ISO'd him and thought he was town, specifically . I just am not sure exactly what's stopping flopz from being scum here, but he doesn't feel scummy to me
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Post Post #2265 (isolation #147) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:44 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 1576, Menalque wrote: I did the first thing I always do when I repped in which is check post counts to see who the dominant voices are, and saw koba and super standing out. I overall just think super has presented as v towny throughout, the only thing that really bothers me is her insistence on her fb townread throughout the game when I really don’t think he’s done anything that warrants a townread and has actually been actively scummy (gonna get to this shortly). I have some vague paranoia but basically I’m not super interested in going into it — she’s seemed like she’s been solving to me from early through until now
This doesn't feel like someone you'd have as your top townread, it feels like he's writing her off a town and I don't think town!mena would feel comfortable with that. In general mena's reasoning doesn't feel like it matches up with his conclusions

Talked about the chenn stuff already
In post 1591, Menalque wrote: Firebringer is i think my top pick for scum. I feel like there’s some real contradictions and some things that are very off here. Enters going on and on and on about having black flag and how it’s terrible but then has been a relatively active voice who has been (for him) tryharding the game. I think that’s weird for fire to do as town, if he’s an alignment he dislikes in a setup he dislikes.
Then there was the bit where he’s engaging koba on koba’s TR of my slot (bottom of pg 56) and it felt very agenda-y. Like yeah I don’t think koba looks ~good~ there but I also think koba is a competent enough scum player to not make posts like that regarding a buddy if he were scum. So I think that fire is going for things which just look surface level bad instead of really thinking about them, and that’s scummy.
I also dislike the way that he was sort of lightly shading my slot (his comment about amp’s rep out being a scumclaim) and my lack of posting (again, literally couldn’t until T-Bone introduced me), both of which felt like concern over a very null-to-scum and eliminable slot having me rep into it. I’m generally annoying to scum, so I can see wanting to undermine me/the slot pre-emptively being something scum!fire is interested in. I also have a decent amount of experience with fire overall, and he just seems off to me. I think that this is, again, the fact that he’s playing with what feels like more of an agenda than normal. Now, I’ve seen scum!him play /without/ an agenda before, so I don’t think he’s lockscum for having one, but it’s still iffy and I’ve played with town!fire more.
I get that mena doesn't have a ton of strong SRs, but this just doesn't feel like the argument justifies the conclusion. The bolded feels very weak and unconvincing, fire doesn't seem like the type of player to go into a ton of depth anyway. I also sort of doubt that mena feels like he has fire figured out this game, like yeah he has some experience but fire's play has mostly been confusing and he doesn't have a ton of content, so it feels like mena is forcing this SR rather than genuinely trying to sort fire
In post 1596, Menalque wrote:Seriously, the relief when I found out it was a townslot was unbelievable
This just feels...fake
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Post Post #2321 (isolation #148) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:17 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

If me and mena are TvT, I'd expect scum to be sitting back and watching. I don't really think they'd care so much about wagoning me since none of them are in danger and they can just compromise at deadline or something. I'm gonna find where I said I TRed those three.

If mena is scum, I'm not sure why scum aren't voting me. Maybe they can't get enough traction?
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Post Post #2324 (isolation #149) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:19 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2314, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 2311, Super wrote:@Autumn, if you're town do this: if not it's ok you don't have to :P I'm extending an olive branch (kinda) that if you are town here I need you to open up your perspective of a world where both Mena and I are town and for you to solve the game with that mindset. For a moment conf bias yoirself into thinking we are both town and then solve the game for me; who do you think is scum if we both are town?

I think a lot of your solving doesn't feel right but you come across as potentially "towny" when you post doubt about my slot and yes I can see a world where you are town and I'm wrong here so I need you to get on my level and solve it in that mindset for me; it'll help my read on you A LOT
Legit, I was about to write a post saying that I thought you were scum because you were acting so close minded towards me. So I think this is a good start.

chenn/lilith/koba are my most confident TRs. The first person that comes to mind to look at if you're both town is flopz, since he's been kinda fencesitting on this whole thing which would be TvT. I would maybe reconsider chenn too. I also think scum could be taking my side to try to pocket me, and I think fire is the most likely candidate for that.
oops

Also thanks fire :)
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Post Post #2331 (isolation #150) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:34 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 385, Autumn Leaves wrote:They feel messier than they usually are as scum, and I can feel them trying to keep scum on their toes. I also think they would approach me more cautiously as scum, and I liked some of their early vibes.
This is still true for koba + they've been re-evaluating their reads at random times which doesn't feel agenda-y
In post 1303, Autumn Leaves wrote:
In post 1284, Auro wrote:viewtopic.php?f=54&t=82824 @AL: I'm not saying her play is similar but it's a nice read.
She has a lot less passion/drive/something here. I guess one of the towniest things about lilith's play to me was that you could see how her annoyance about being SRed while she was away showed in her scumhunting. She started SRing you, auro, and the way she's not letting it go also felt very towny to me. Anyway, I think it's very towny behavior in a vacuum, and in the absence of evidence that scum!lilith behaves similarly, I think lilith is just town.
In post 2254, Autumn Leaves wrote:
In post 2191, Super wrote:can you explain your townread fully on Chen to me Autumn? I want to know where it comes from and if you can go deeper on it
Besides the mindmeld stuff, I have no idea what he's doing here as scum. He seems to be putting a lot of effort into thinking about the game, but not in a way that's likely to get townread (he's not coming to a lot of solid conclusions/not obviously being "solvy") and he's not taking control of the game in spots where (imo) scum could've come in and taken control since a lot of people were unsure about reads.
These are why my TRs are what they are, if you want me to elaborate I can try.

I feel like I'm getting a little deep into pre-flip associative territory, but I agree that I'm not sure what scum are doing if mena is scum. If you're town and scum isn't bussing, flopz/johnny are the most likely partners. I feel like scum!fire could get away with voting me if he was scum with mena. So the most likely teams fmpov are:

mena, super, flopz/johnny/auro
mena, flopz, johnny
3 of flopz/johnny/auro/fire
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Post Post #2333 (isolation #151) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:35 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2330, Firebringer wrote:Super ur too narrowly focused and should take 100 feet back to see the mountains. Ur in the brush.
Is super dragging me into the brush with her?
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Post Post #2339 (isolation #152) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:41 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In a mena/super world, scum cannot get any traction on any townie. I actually think flopz is a very likely partner because otherwise why doesn't scum push flopz? In a mena!town world, flopz is scum for fencesitting on the 1v1. In a mena!scum super!town world, flopz is scum by PoE.

Does this make sense to anyone else?
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Post Post #2352 (isolation #153) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:51 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

VOTE: flopz let's try this

@Super my SR on you isn't very confident tbh
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Post Post #2364 (isolation #154) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:59 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2362, lilith2013 wrote:why did yall pick now of all times to vote flopz when I was trying to wagon them yesterday
I, uh

I changed my mind
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Post Post #2372 (isolation #155) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:05 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

@chenn, lilith, koba What are your PoEs looking like?
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Post Post #2392 (isolation #156) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:21 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2389, lilith2013 wrote:re: flopz offer, I also didn’t actually want flopz, I was just trying to bait a wagon
Top 10 anime plot twists
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Post Post #2402 (isolation #157) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:27 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Lilith what did you make of ? Also at this point in the game I'm kinda ok sheeping my townreads because I don't need to elim all my scumreads if that makes sense
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Post Post #2409 (isolation #158) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:33 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mena
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Post Post #2443 (isolation #159) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:34 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2440, Firebringer wrote:stop making the game unfun
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Post Post #2485 (isolation #160) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:54 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2448, Menalque wrote:I frankly don’t give a fuck if it makes the game less fun, what makes the game less fun for me is the fucking incompetence that means that 2.5 votes are on scum
Good for you. I'm sitting here wondering if you're going to realize when I flip town that it wasn't worth it.

Me and others are trying to enjoy the game. Part of mafia is disagreeing. Given that I have access to my role pm, I happen to think that the people who disagree with you may be on to something. I also tend to appreciate when games of mafia do not give me headaches. I know you're going to say "blah blah it's a scum act" but it turns out that yes, screaming for people to listen to you or else they're terrible at the game tends to make it less fun.

UNVOTE:
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Post Post #2488 (isolation #161) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:56 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I'm also going to point out that mena's play is wildly unethical because there's no way he would be doing this as scum, so it basically makes him confirmed town, and he's aware of this, but I'm not complaining ig
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Post Post #2503 (isolation #162) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:08 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Mena I thought you were mafia and wanted to get you eliminated. You thought I was mafia and tried to get people to vote me and they didn't want to. If you think that justifies...what you've been doing for the past few pages then idk what to tell you
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Post Post #2651 (isolation #163) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:18 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Ok I respect fire for refusing to TR mena for AtE but I can't see mena as anything other than town now

I'm interested to hear joqiza's thoughts
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Post Post #2677 (isolation #164) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2675, chennisden wrote:you have said Zero Things that feel not fake and surface level

that's why you're getting voted, not because of activity
I feel like your confidence level has come and gone this game. Can I get a sense of where your thoughts are at and how they've changed since you were feeling unsure and looking at the keystone slots?
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Post Post #2683 (isolation #165) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:12 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Lilith I read your posts and you're my strongest TR
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Post Post #2684 (isolation #166) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:14 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2415, JohnnyFarrar wrote:
In post 2414, DkKoba wrote:
In post 2411, JohnnyFarrar wrote:We're actually searching for replacements because burnout and whatnot, so I'm weirdly the most active. Is there something in particular you want me to look at?
I'll take a look when i get home but can u just link me a scum game?

I've already seen ur town game so I don't need it.
boop
Chenn did you take a look at this game? I feel like there's some level of emotion/genuineness behind johnny's posts that doesn't exist in this game

I'm mostly not sure why you're so confident johnny is scum
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Post Post #2922 (isolation #167) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:11 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2920, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 2776, Menalque wrote:
In post 2773, Firebringer wrote:If you for a minute think i am gonna vote people YOU scumread just because YOU SCUMREAD THEM THEY ARE SO GOOD READS.
This is just a misrep, I don’t think I’ve ever said infinity is a good vote bc I scumread him

I think infinity is a good vote because of the incredibly bad faith he treated my slot in

I think infinity is scummy because

(1) he would be scummy for treating any rep in slot in bad faith from the get go

(2) this is particularly scummy for infinity who has a demonstrable pattern as town of behaving in very good faith

(3) it’s tricky concerning that he would decide to treat my slot in such bad faith given our recent past experiences with each other in JK9++

Even if you remove (3) because you think it’s too personal to me/self-meta-y, I think (2) and (1) are still very compelling

Even if you remove (2) as well, because you don’t trust meta, I still think (1) alone is enough to justify an infinity elimination today because I think acting in bad faith in mafia is one of the strongest indicators there is that someone is scum
I mean yes, I don't deathtunnel often as town, but there are definitely examples of it. And I never deathtunnel as scum. The idea that I would think you're an easy target after being beyond obvtown in when you were pushed on in PyP, and OMGUSing the shit out of people who pushed on you, is pretty nonsense. I think you SR me because you refuse to believe I would make such an awful play as town, without having enough knowledge about me as a player to know.
In post 2921, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 2798, Menalque wrote:I will admit that part of why I want infinity dead at this point is that I am very sold on this read and think I won’t be able to move on in the game without receiving confirmation one way or the other

I think it’s much more likely that he flips scum, but if he is town then my continued belief that he’s scum will continue to colour my perception of the game in an inaccurate way and make it much harder for me to actually get to correct SRs
Even if joqiza SRs me, there are at least 3 townies that townread me here, and don't need my flip to re-evaluate, so I don't particularly care about this
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Post Post #2923 (isolation #168) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:20 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2867, Firebringer wrote:
In post 2864, Menalque wrote:
In post 2856, Firebringer wrote:Which makes his soft distance push against me makes sense
Wait where was this again
He been calling me scum who is trying to pocket him for many pages.
Ok I said that once, I don't actually think you're scum, but it's something to consider is joqiza flips town
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Post Post #2924 (isolation #169) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:23 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2893, joqiza wrote:@Autumn as a start, I'd be interested in hearing Ydrasse's current view of this game.
Ydrasse...has not been keeping up with the game. Is there anything specific you want her to ask about?
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Post Post #2935 (isolation #170) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:28 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I'm liking that joqiza is transparent about being easy to read. First few impressions have seemed genuine as well.
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Post Post #2936 (isolation #171) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:55 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

@joqiza Ydrasse told me to send you this, and that she's feeling very demotivated but will try

Image
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Post Post #2942 (isolation #172) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:52 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

So far yes
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Post Post #2957 (isolation #173) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:49 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2946, Menalque wrote:(2) I wouldn’t necessarily describe your behaviour here as deathtunnelling on me so I don’t think this supports your argument
What do you actually mean by bad faith then? Yes I pushed you with the intent to eliminate you, without planning on changing my mind. I wasn't intentionally misrepping or fabricating reasons to SR you, I just wasn't really giving a lot of weight to your perspective since I was convinced you were scum. I maintain that this can be good play, obviously I made up my mind too early there though.

The rest is like, not stuff I can really argue against, I can see how there's a possibility fypov that scum!me makes that play, I think it would be pretty terrible play though and I probably wouldn't do it for my own mental state either. I don't like arguing.
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Post Post #2958 (isolation #174) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:25 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I will also say, mena, that this isn't the first time you've gotten a certain impression of me as a player and SRed me because I didn't match that impression. Yes you know more about me than you did when you spectated that one game, but the fact is that I have a very wide townrange and it takes some people a while to get used to that.
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Post Post #2980 (isolation #175) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:43 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 2974, joqiza wrote:Let's take a universe for a second, where we're both town. Let's add Mena and Lilith as town to this universe, too, since I believe you townread them both. Who would you look at as scum in this universe, of the remaining slots? Who would be your top suspect(s), and why?
I get that this is probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but the answer is "some combination of everyone else". I feel like I have weak reasons to townread a bunch of people in {flopz, johnny, chenn, auro}, but none of them stand out as particularly more or less likely to be scum fmpov, as I've been reconsidering my chenn read lately. I do think fire is town, I thought about his read on me and I think he was really trying to get in my head, and the way he was arguing with mena about whether I'm scum felt like he was trying to sort things out for himself when he wasn't sure, which felt genuine. Kanna is catching up with the game so I'll see what she thinks.
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Post Post #2983 (isolation #176) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:48 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Oh, and I have played with scum!flopz before, and he would've had to up with scumgame to be scum here, but it's possible. I also felt that way meta'ing him the last time I played against scum!him though. I'm gonna try to map out who I think is less likely to be partners later today, and maybe that will help give me clarity. (Also I forgot about koba but I think they're town, my gut tends to be accurate for reading koba. Kanna has koba at locktown.)

PEdit: possibly yeah.
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Post Post #2992 (isolation #177) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:45 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Ok ydrasse gave me some high thoughts last night so let me try to paraphrase

The reason she said mena was scumclaiming was during his interaction with super or koba or something (?), he felt overly aggressive to the point of being mean-spirited. She also TRed him when he started being toxic, which she told me not to mention but I already said I started TRing mena then so /shrug

She thinks koba is town

She thinks super was being pockety at some point (?) but she's not sure she SRs that slot

She feels like chenn is trying to set himself up in a good position rather than scumhunt, which is entirely a vibe read. Earlier I would disagree with this strongly but I guess I can kinda see it?

Johnny/flopz are other slots she suspects

Wrt the super stuff, I'm convinced that progression is either towny or scummy and I can't decide which

No matter what solve I come to in the game, something feels off about it
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Post Post #2996 (isolation #178) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:53 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I didn't paraphrase that well, I think she initially felt that mena was being aggressive in a game sense not a personal one. I'm interpreting it kinda like how some scum get really aggressive in Elo, when they just need one more mislim and can taste victory
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Post Post #3014 (isolation #179) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:36 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Unwilling to elim: lilith, mena
Not a preferred elim: fire, math, joqiza
Preferred elims: chenn, flopz, auro, johnny

Really not sure who my favorite elim is, and this could change pending joqiza content/talking to kanna
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Post Post #3016 (isolation #180) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:41 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Idk, he'd be at the top of the bottom tier I think

Mostly I had to re-evaluate based on joqiza being towny so far (and mena being towny before that). I don't think my reasons to TR chenn are strong enough for this point in the game. Ydrasse also is influencing the read somewhat.
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Post Post #3035 (isolation #181) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:42 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I'm infinity btw
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Post Post #3042 (isolation #182) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:51 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 3031, MathBlade wrote:Autumn Leaves just lists a lot of names and preferred but his not preferred is very tiny. This means either A) Autumn Leaves has a hero mentality which is bad for town or B) Is scum who wants those players in the bottom tier.
You're saying my PoE is too small? I guess, but I don't have a hero mentality, I just have too many TRs.

PEdit: hi math, you just quoted my readslist lol

I do think the townbloc approach is the right one for this game so yeah I'm gonna try to work with people
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Post Post #3107 (isolation #183) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:51 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Auro, I get that you like to argue, but what exactly are you trying to achieve here? Mena probably isn't getting eliminated today, and fire has already said he's not changing his mind.

@Chenn Why is your TR on me gone?
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Post Post #3109 (isolation #184) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:06 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Where are you at with reads right now? I feel like there's a lot more productive you could be doing right now, like figuring out or pushing towards your preferred elim. This engagement almost feels like busy work. Though if you really think it's worth arguing with someone who's being openly stubborn, I guess I just disagree with you?
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Post Post #3168 (isolation #185) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:22 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 3157, MathBlade wrote:
In post 3107, Autumn Leaves wrote:Auro, I get that you like to argue, but what exactly are you trying to achieve here? Mena probably isn't getting eliminated today, and fire has already said he's not changing his mind.

@Chenn Why is your TR on me gone?
And why exactly is Menalque probably not getting eliminated today? You buddies with him or something?
If you read up you'll know that mena I town (I think?)

There's not enough support anyway
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Post Post #3169 (isolation #186) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:24 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 3167, Menalque wrote:I would obviously prefer that order, but does anyone in principle disagree that the best 3 slots to flip until scum!hit are infinity/math/me ?
*raises hand*
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Post Post #3172 (isolation #187) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:40 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I want to stick to my TR on koba, he's mostly been normal math so far
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Post Post #3175 (isolation #188) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:46 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 3173, Menalque wrote:Thoughts on his reactions to me on this and the last page?
I have very little to say about it, it's certainly not scum-indicative for math
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Post Post #3179 (isolation #189) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:53 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Math's thought processes are mostly only going to make sense in his head, I think the approach of "let's see how many people go along with my townbloc strategy and use it to read them" is kinda self-centered in a towny way, if anything. It's difficult to explain but I don't think the things you're pushing math on are the right way to read him because yeah, his progressions haven't made a ton of sense to me but I'm pretty sure that's NAI
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Post Post #3195 (isolation #190) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:28 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I really hate being miselimed, but I think joqiza/lilith/mena are obvtown enough that we should be able to find one more town and win. So I'm not gonna fight this too much
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Post Post #3196 (isolation #191) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:34 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I will say that making up reasons to scumread people isn't that difficult, ajd from experience when I can articulate reasons for someone being scum it's much more likely to be wrong than when I can't. (see: my mena scumread from earlier). But w/e
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Post Post #3198 (isolation #192) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:22 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

My preference order is in . I guess johnny would be my #1 preferred elim, but only because everyone else has done townier things. Maybe at some point I'll summarize why that is, but for now that's all I really have to say.
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Post Post #3200 (isolation #193) » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:33 pm

Post by Autumn Leaves »

VOTE: johnny
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Post Post #3423 (isolation #194) » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:43 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

The thing is that I don't think koba's play is actually scum-indicative for anyone, especially not koba. Ultimately I think poking around randomly without a plan is town-indicative because it's from an uninformed perspective. Yes it's true that they could've changed their meta here, but occam's razor says they're just town. Most of the way I read koba comes from gut, and it's difficult for them to know what to do to make me townread them on gut.
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Post Post #3429 (isolation #195) » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:54 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I guess a lot of how I scumhunt is trying to find a difference between "this person doesn't have much of a plan, but is at least trying to get townreads" vs. "this person doesn't know what they're doing because they're the uninformed faction", and I do think I can tell the difference at better-than-random accuracy especially when I know how a player works a little bit.
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Post Post #3440 (isolation #196) » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:15 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

I also just don't agree with the philosophy of "if x is town, they played bad and therefore it's their fault". A lot of people play bad as town, and it's your job to distinguish between bad town and scum. I can link multiple games where koba played very similar to this as town, and if you're saying that's not a reason to townread them, fine, but at the very least it's not a reason to scumread them. Especially when they're not even in the game anymore.
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Post Post #3444 (isolation #197) » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:23 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

In post 3429, Autumn Leaves wrote:I guess a lot of how I scumhunt is trying to find a difference between "this person doesn't have much of a plan, but is at least trying to get townreads" vs. "this person doesn't know what they're doing because they're the uninformed faction", and I do think I can tell the difference at better-than-random accuracy especially when I know how a player works a little bit.
Just because it's messy/bad play doesn't mean it's unreadable.
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Post Post #3450 (isolation #198) » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:30 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

But that line of thinking makes no sense when we have a replacement for koba that you can use to sort the slot.
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Post Post #3454 (isolation #199) » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:36 am

Post by Autumn Leaves »

Joqiza why does scum!johnny imply town!koba?
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