Newbie 1707 - Game Over

[Simoyd]

VOTE: Raskolnikov

[Simoyd]

Hey, the forum is back! Yay!!! \0/

Raskolnikov reminds me of Rakanishu who always kills me with his damn chain-lightning.

[Simoyd]

I didn't read SethYazura's first post as forced. What part makes you think it's forced, wgeurts?

[Simoyd]

Totally wrecked it, nice.

Honestly it doesn't seem that suspicious but is the only thing going on, and only meant to note that it different than others and a thing I'm noting in my mental list of things about this game, and as i said didn't want to be silent. If it is a poke at an acquaintance, a noobs game with newcomers to the forum and or game isn't the best place for that.

@wgeurts: Since you asked about P20: I can understand not wanting to be silent, but I think that RQS might have been a better approach rather than sheeping. Or even if he brought up a secondary reason that you didn't bring up could have been okay. Could be new player-ness? I'm new too though, so I dunno. The second sentence really feels like a poor excuse. I think that friends/rivals often poke at each-other in the mafia games I've read (or any game for that matter).

I'm going to point my finger of suspicion at Murph too. He reduced attention on KaladinStormblessed's sheeping and redirected to Seth. Murph and KaladinStormblessed: possible scum pair? I agree with Murph that reading KaladinStormblessed sheeping as scum on page one is very far fetched, but no more far fetched than reading Seth's post as forced, and no more far fetched than my FoS.

[Simoyd]

@ Kal and geurts

Why do either of you have suspicions about a single D1 poster ?

Seems more like Seth was acknowledging/poking an acquaintance with a throw-away D1 vote.

If you think it's more nefarious, please share why.

@Murph: You downplayed both posts in your first sentence, then you encouraged other people to talk more about Seth with your second and third sentance. I have like 15 bottles of this weak sauce, and I need to get rid of it somehow!

[Simoyd]

It's not as random cause it's the second vote on a person, with no real reason, but follow up votes are more suspicious than the first vote. Also you have a reason, joking revenge vote, he doesn't. I don't like to bounce my vote around so I wait to vote. Yes, I have done mafia before, a few games on gamefaqs, unsure if I'll be able to find links. Almost didn't post it for fear it'd be suspicious but didn't want to be silent.

analyzing because wgeurts asked:

Word on the street is that putting a second vote on someone in RVS is bad form. I don't agree with that. I've seen the accusation several times in games that I've read, but a lot of the time people who do the second vote end up town, so I don't see it as a good reason. I think that can play into the meta, so an alignment indication might depend on things that happen in the future.

I agree that there's not really much evidence on anyone to justify switching from his RVS vote at this point. I think switching would probably be more scum indicating if anything.

I'm skeptical of him not being able to find links to his game, although I don't want to force him to do anything because it may give an unfair disadvantage to him (as both town and scum) compared to other newbs. I'd ask how long ago they were as evidence, but he can just lie so I won't bother.

and I already mentioned my opinion on fear of being silent in a previous post.

Also Sim, I'm liking what I'm seeing from you so far. Don't try and piece together any associative tells not based off cold hard flips or a mod-confirmed investigation result, they will collapse on you and it will hurt your game. Basing someone's alignment on someone's else's when you don't even know for sure the first is what you think he is, is a very weak construction and you'll find yourself making many mistakes as a result. You may also accidentally biasing yourself to see someone as a certain alignment which doesn't help either, basically don't do it.

...

Thanks for pointing this out. I feel like I had a good understanding of associative tells coming into this game, but I'm really grasping at straws at this point. It was certainly not a strong opinion. Gotta start somewhere.

So, that FoS you were swinging about, how about IT ? Your reasoning is unjust and quite actually confirms my statements.

I think that the words you used, and the effects of those words are two separate things. A liar can use the words you did to try and direct attention to Seth. Yes it's associative, and yes it's weak.

[Simoyd]

I think fear of being perceived as sheeping only happens when you know you have nothing of substance to post. If you're posting substance, then there is nothing to fear to begin with. At the same time, people are crazy and I'm on the internet, so I dunno...

chase the fear.

@KaladinStormblessed: Why does siding with wgeurts make you scared? What did you think we would think was happening? How would you not posting your opinion benefit town?

@wgeurts: What do you think about post 19?

We need more people posting. I'd like to hear everyone else's (not murph and wgeurts) opinion on the second half of post 33 and on post 34 (KaladinStormblessed just ur opinion on 34).

[Simoyd]

why do I need to have a problem with them?

[Simoyd]

If you have something to weigh in about, then let me know. I assumed you didn't, am I wrong?

My intent is to judge other people's opinions on said posts.

[Simoyd]

why not these two posts? What do you think those posts expose?

[Simoyd]

:fritos:

[Simoyd]

I see those posts as interpretable, so that other people can post and I can read their opinions. I don't have any substantial problem with them at this point that I haven't already raised.

[Simoyd]

How about you, Raskolnikov? Thoughts so far?

[Simoyd]

@Raskolnikov: What do you mean when you say Murph is "definitely thinking"? I feel like all he has done is hate on yogurt's accusations and defend himself against my accusations. Not saying I've done much more, but I'm not quite understanding what you mean here?

[Simoyd]

I'm having trouble understanding why you deflected from my question and repeated the far fetched nature of my previous accusations. I'm not sure I would quantify anything you described about murph in your post (80) as "definitely thinking". Perhaps you can speak more to that? Do you think others are definitely not thinking?

[Simoyd]

@Hoppic: I would love to hear your opinions on everyone so far. What do you think?

[Simoyd]

@Hoppic: why do you read redcoyote as scum?

[Simoyd]

@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?

[Simoyd]

Same. Let me know.

[Simoyd]

I've noted that Sim likes to answer questions by turning the question back into a question.

Yea I do that. I understand the pattern is selfish, but I justify it as selfish for town. In my opinion the alignment indication depends on the context of the pattern. Ultimatly I think I answered your questions though, in the end.

My first post wasn't forced, it's not an attempt on humor either, I made it sound strange on purpose.
If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there.
VOTE: MurphVOTE:
UNVOTE: wgeurts

Not to devalue what others have said about this post, but incomplete vote tags don't count right? Is that intentional? Baiting for reactions maybe?

What do you mean by "I made is sound strange on purpose".

It was to attract attention and immediately get the game going, but it's more than that, sadly I can't tell you my secrets.

I'm also not sure how I like your positioning, the way you've jumped into murf seems terribly suspect

How does that make me terribly suspect? A suspect is one that acts like scum, a scum pretends to be town, what I'm doing is the total opposite of that.

Also know that if you are town, flash-lynching is never a good idea especially for the reasons you gave.

Sure

I think that secrets can be okay to try and corner someone later. If it drags on and secrets are kept long term, then I would be very concerned.

@Seth: How do you define the "total opposite" of "one that acts like scum, a scum pretends to be town". I don't understand your explaination. Can you explain how flash-lynching can be good for town? Also your opinion on other people?

@ Sim

Don't be shy about it. Get to the point.
What is it about 19 & 34 that you have a problem with ?

I think that the reason this seems overly defensive is because of your phrasing. You could have asked "Do you have a problem with these posts?" or "Why do you keep poking at these?". But your phrasing "what is it" implies that it certainly exists. This is another minor thing I think. I also think that I continue to point out minor things for you because you're good at defending yourself.

I'm trying to pressure everyone at this point to create more things to attach content to. Maybe my opinions below will do that.

---

Null reads: AlpacaAlpaca, RedCoyote, Kaladin, and even yogurts need to post more

In order from least scummy (top) to most scummy (bottom):

Murph seems very driven both by defending himself and by asking questions on things I agree with. Only minor scum tells so far.

Raskolnikov's posts seem very scattered to me. I don't like the quick changing of opinions on RedCoyote and Murph, but ultimatly the reasons appear to have good motivations. No real acusations or drive to push others.

Hoppic I think is under the fire now. Seems really wishy washy, but might be the player. Need more in-depth analysis from him on any topic. No real acusations or drive to push others.

Kaladin needs to post more, but start of game was questionable

Seth - see above

:McDonalds:

[Simoyd]

VOTE: SethYazura

Since he doesn't have a vote on him and certainly deserves one. No intent to lynch at this point.

[Simoyd]

He hasn't posted much, and what he has posted appears very scummy. I am pressuring him.

Hypothetically if no-one were allowed to post more, I would lynch him. If a town jumps on my wagon followed by two scum and he hasn't posted back, then I will remove my vote and wait for later in the day to give him an opportunity to explain.

I don't think votes are universally synonymous with lynch intent.

[Simoyd]

so.... AlpacaAlpaca, what do you think about Raskolnikov?

[Simoyd]

I'm glad you're being honest

[Simoyd]

i catch myself doing that a bunch too. I'm not sure if it's a tell or not :S

[Simoyd]

I think what Raskolnikov was saying was to use the "post" bbcode tag instead of the "quote" bbcode tag. The code in his post was just to demonstrate the usage of the "post" tag so that you could see it without the forum parsing it into what it ends up looking like, like this: 97

[Simoyd]

I've got to have fun before getting night-killed for looking the most imposing (my gray name makes me look more experienced, lol. little do they know)

I'd like to hear more about exactly how this generates fun for you.

[Simoyd]

I'm trying to lure scum to jump on the Murph lynch train, unfortunately the situation changed and turned against me, it's not for the bad though.
UNVOTE: Murph
I'm not surprised I'm at L-2 now, no one wants a person who hides information from town and suggests flash lynching with a lack of reasoning.
The reason I made that first post was to try to distinguish scum from town, how a scum and town would react to an odd doublevote post, this will be useful for me in the future.

So what exactly are the specific results of your experiment?

[Simoyd]

Hypothetically if Seth is lynched and flips town then we can analyze the wagon, but that applies to any townie so I'm not sure how that provides value to town. I remember reading some things on the wiki about martyrdom being a poor strategy too... Not sure how I feel about this explanation.

@Seth: What is your previous experience with mafia style games? How much have you played before this?

[Simoyd]

By martyrdom I only meant intentionally acting blatantly as scum, I don't mean voting himself.

[Simoyd]

I knew I read that somewhere on the wiki =D thanks!

@Seth: Are you intentionally performing a Slayer's Gambit? If not, how does your experiment differ from said gambit?

[Simoyd]

ya im here

[Simoyd]

I think that people have plenty of conflicting opinions at this point, so it doesn't have to be unique at this point necessarily. Just posting your opinions so far on everyone I think would be valuable for you and town.

[Simoyd]

Why do you think that?

[Simoyd]

redcoyote has posted less than KaladinStormblessed I think

[Simoyd]

I wonder if Alpaca might make a good D1 lynch.

Why do you think that?

I was hoping some live back-and-forth may be a refreshing change of pace for the game, but perhaps not. I'd rather have discussed why Alpaca was or wasn't a good lynch.

Sounds good. Lets talk about why you think Alpaca would make a good lynch?

[Simoyd]

grouping players together in the way with which I'm attempting to do?

Can you elaborate more on what you're attempting to do?

[Simoyd]

This is interesting.

[Simoyd]

I like to form my own opinions

[Simoyd]

@RedCoyote: What do you think about Seth?

[Simoyd]

yea I wasn't really a fan of 111 either.

[Simoyd]

@RedCoyote: So do you believe Seth's "slayer's gambit" explanation? How is that less newby than 111? Why chose Hoppic over Seth?

[Simoyd]

@KaladinStormblessed: What do you think about Raskolnikov?

[Simoyd]

@Hoppic: Do you believe Seth's "slayer's gambit" explanation? What is your read on him?

[Simoyd]

Really I sometimes why he never voted murf so I'd like an explanation there.

Sorry, read this at work and forgot to respond later. I didn't vote murph at that point because my evidence was all crap and I knew it the whole time. I think that it's clear now how intensely I'm trying to move the game forward. Murph isn't jumping out and driving but I'm hard-pressed to find scum in his posts.

I'm thinking now that RedCoyote took my "Murph hate trane" kinda seriously in 70 and continued by parroting "phrasing" in 203. I'm not liking his recent posts either...

I need more explanations from Seth. He has ignored many direct questions from different people. I'm not sure if I like him more or less than RedCoyote at this point.

I'm liking Raskolnikov's and Hoppic's recent posts more than their previous ones.

I've seen almost no scum behaviour in yogurts.

@Alpaca & KaladinStormblessed: I'd really like to see a post with your reads. Even if it is just an order of names with no reasons. We have to start somewhere and people can ask questions from there.

[Simoyd]

What do you think about what I said in post 227? Is it a scum slip?

I really liked that one! I missed that when I first read it but I completely agree!!! Very nice catch!

I almost changed by vote because of it, but I want to keep pressure on Seth for more explanations. I like your thinking that if he was really going for it, he would have committed. It kinda leaves him with no outs other than VI or scum.

[Simoyd]

SethYazura is at L-1

I think a hammer vote with almost 12 days left would be considered a scum claim. At the same time, that's what Seth appears to want, so I'm leaving my vote.

[Simoyd]

NOPE im drunk. forgot rasko changed his vote. I think he's at L-2. My bad

[Simoyd]

I don't want to make that claim now, though an RC flip may end this game day 2.

Sim may not know any better than to this, but you ought to know better than this.

@Seth: What do you think about RC's comment here?

[Simoyd]

Just wondering why would you vote someone without intent to lynch, I mean you have said that you think that he is the most scummy out of everyone and than you voted him because he doesn't have a vote yet but you don't have any intent to lynch him? Shouldn't voting for people be reserved for actually wanting to lynch them. Like its open to change the vote later but why vote without intent.

This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town.

In what universe is this a scum slip?

This universe. What universe are you in?

If you would wonder the same thing as town, then why didn't you wonder that? The wording demonstrates that you think you're separate from town. You could have said "I missed that and agree". You could have said "I think the same thing [as town]". But you said you WOULD wonder the same thing as town implying that there's a condition, as if to say "I would wonder the same thing as town, if ...". I think the "..." here is what I've asked above: why didn't you wonder that? What is the condition? True, this could just be ego ("I would wonder the same thing as town, if I was a filthy pleb like you guys, but I'm amazing at this game"), but I don't really find the rest of your posts to be notably egotistical. I'm trying to understand what a town motivated condition here would be. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth by adding to your sentence, and I'm not trying to over-focus on one sentence. I'm just providing this big explanation because hoppic and I see it and you seem to be missing it. I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you chose that wording?

[Simoyd]

So I have some concerns about you, hoppic:

Weak Sauce

Alpacalpaca's only made one post so far, so it's hard to get a read just from that but it seemed strange to me that the post would be all about assessment and have no questions. Also, idk. It's easier to read people when you know what they're like a bit.

Why do you think it is wierd that alpaca has no questions? It seems that you only have two posts so far with questions about other people (125 and 232). 124 and 306 are defensive clarification questions, so not the same thing. 231 appears to be rhetorical as there was no follow up? I'm not trying to say you should ask more questions. I'm wondering what makes you think Alpaca's post is wierd?

Lurking / Not taking a stance / Feeling out the crowd

In posts 104, 107, 108, 109 - you really seem to be goin back and forth on your opinions. 109 explained this as a typo, but the wording in 107 "actually" demonstrates that the view posted here is different than 104. This series of posts gives me bad vibes. Additionally:

@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?

I can't really understand what she (?) is saying. A few players in this game are like that for me: raskolnokiv, you a bit and Murphy. Maybe others. I can understand individual words and sentences but overall I don't get it.

I think murph and I were very clear. It really seems like you were lurking and scared to take a stance at this point. What is the town motivation here to not understand when asked to provide an opinion? I'd say it could be newbishness but later (227) you demonstrate that you can make a pretty solid deep read, so I'm a bit curious about this inconsistentcy. More evidence of lurking and fear of taking a stance is shown here:

I haven't gone back and reread the game yet so I haven't quoted particular parts.

that's post number 229! I feel like that's pretty far in. I don't think it's valuable for town to be posting opinons and analysis without having read up at that point. Sounds like it's really just more fear to take a stance, and trying to feel out what opinion will draw the least attention. How do you think this helps town?

This mostly is clear, but some things are hard to understand, such as, murphy definitely thinking and being a tiny bit scary...

Lets face it. The murph trane was crap at the start, and was still crap at the time your post here. This seems like parroting to me. Basically your analysis was that you agreed with a shitty trane and then you posed a rhetorical question (which I also mentioned above). The focus here wasn't that you didn't understand what raskolnikov said, but more that you demonstrated you didn't value understanding what raskolnikov said. Your response to parrot his opionions and post the rhetorical question still doesn't really take any kind of stance. What is your read on Rasko?

What do you think about what I said in post 227? Is it a scum slip?

Although I agree with your read, this again seems like you're feeling out the crowd and seeking validation before really jumping on it. I don't think I'm an authority in this game, and if you have a problem with something RC said, then why do I need to agree with you? Is there a reason other than more pressure on RC? There was no question from you in 227. Why didn't you just clearly outline the issue up front to him to potentially get his response instead?

One last thing: In post 231 you analyse the first part of Rasko's post 72. Then you have some revelation in post 233 about it. What made you chose this part (not the second half of 72) to analyze? How is this valuable to town?

The seth trane

My first post wasn't forced, it's not an attempt on humor either, I made it sound strange on purpose.
If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there.
VOTE: MurphVOTE:
UNVOTE: wgeurts

What do you mean about Murphy sounding dangerous? Dangerous how?

You jump on the seth trane, but only after rasko, murph, alpaca, and yogurts. So it's a pretty safe bet this won't draw attention at this point right? You also agree with his RVS seeming forced in post 103. I don't think your RVS vote is any more or less forced, as you provided two distinct reasons for your RVS vote. What exactly do you think is forced in his post? What words or topics sound forced? What really bothers me is:

From what I've observed so far only the ppl who has made the analysis of scum so far are town.

Who do you mean and why do you think they're town?
Does it bother you that a lot of people see you as scummy?

The first question is ambiguous. I'm getting vibes here that you're asking how to be a better town. Only scum is concerned with pretending to be town. The second question though is way off. If the answer is yes, then what? If the answer is no, then what? How does this help town? Why did you ask this? It sounds like "does it bother you that you're town, your strategy is crap, and you will be lynched instead of me?"

Your very next post after 127 is 227. During this time the seth trane derailed and exploded into the "slayer's gambit" junk. And your first post is to step away from seth in fear, which continues in post 228 (Note that I'm not sure I would agree with what seth says in 244. I think the whole thing is WIFOM. Scum could do either; be scared, or wagon on). But when I ask about it you gave me this:

Nothing Seth has said has made any sense to me and he seems really anti-town. I think he's probably scum, but redcoyote is a stronger read right now.
No, the slayer gambit explanation makes no sense. If you were doing that, why would you say so? Everyone's voting this early in the game, and the votes are not too serious so it doesn't make sense for timing either.

So if you don't believe the slayer gambit, then how do you explain seth being less of a read than RC? Why would a townie act like scum, and say he's doing the slayer's gambit and not be doing the slayer's gambit? How is that a worse read than what you have on RC?

---

@Hoppic: I'd like to hear your thoughts on the above

[Simoyd]

I have some stuff on hoppic for when I'm not on my phone.

@wgeurts: Is this still incoming? Also, like murph, I would like to hear your opinion on 111.

[Simoyd]

yes

[Simoyd]

If I were in Alpaca's shoes with a town alignment

I guess this explanation is okay...

[Simoyd]

I think the scum are apt to get rid of an IC early on in the game if they think they can swing it.

Assuming you're town I agree with this.

[Simoyd]

If I were in Alpaca's shoes with a town alignment

I guess this explanation is okay...

Frankly, I don't see how you could read it in any other way unless you were intending to try and sway a quick, foolhardy lynch. I'm disappointed that you'd give Hoppic so much credit as to apply his obvious framework on me without having the independent sense to question either him or myself first.

My credit shouldn't matter to anyone. I expect people to form their own opinions. I think the wording implies a condition, which you've provided. I'm still getting bad vibes from hoppic, but I'm not sure I would describe it as obvious.

[Simoyd]

do you want to talk about anything one-on-one

Yes. a couple things maybe. I'm concerned about yogurts. I'm wondering if hoppic and him are partners. Hoppics fear of taking a stance near the start kind of seems to me like he's distancing from yogurts. What do you think about that or is there anything on your mind?

[Simoyd]

alpaca is still on seth which I like

[Simoyd]

I've went out on an obvious limb to call you town very early on in this game, much to detriment

My credit shouldn't matter to anyone either. People should form their own opinions. Not hostile, maybe just my opinion, but I think it's most effective for everyone to maintain independent thought, even if they may settle on a wagon for some time.

(still reading rest of ur post)

[Simoyd]

I think that considering an arrangment of players where I'm in a townbloc with you is okay. But I consider many different arrangments of the players and am constantly weighing them between each-other based on reads. I'm re-reading ur old posts now to see if I have any issues with u (I'm on page 7). I forget if I asked, but maybe it's changed since someone asked you: what is your full insight on the seth situation?

[Simoyd]

another arrangement I'm considering is you and rasko scum. He jumped on you poorly as if he wasn't a good busser, then switched and you guys are kinda friendly now.

[Simoyd]

or you and seth

[Simoyd]

Sim may not know any better than to this, but you ought to know better than this.

What do you mean by this? If we lynch two town then we're in lylo, is that it?

[Simoyd]

I feel like you're holding onto your opinion and tunnelling instead of reconsidering based on peoples arguments. I feel like you're doing in disproportionately more than others.

[Simoyd]

Frankly I need a lot more data on Seth, otherwise I don't see any reason we shouldn't kill him today. The way it stands right now, he is either scum, or a complete VI (to the point of breaking the rules because he's not playing to win). I could see him waiting a couple days more, but he would need to do some serious contributions with no scrum tells whatsoever next week for me to even consider leaving him alive.

If he's town, then he should be capable of sitting down by himself and thinking through the possible reactions to his performance. It is very obvious that the output data is 100% WIFOM. I don't see why town would be too lazy to think through this. So he needs to stop at some point and clear up the doubt against him by showing no scum tells after a specific reveal point. I can respect stirring up the pot at the start of the game, but wasting the full day and consuming the day 1 lynch just for some WIFOM is crap. Who knows, maybe he's got a PR and that is his big reveal point? Again exposing your PR for some WIFOM is crap. I think we're well past the point of stirring now.

I think that both scum and town are capable of thinking through this, and pending significant contributions from seth town should be on seth. scum will want to be like town, so they will go on two. but we know that so they wont. What I'm saying is the scum reaction to this crap is WIFOM.

What really bugs me is he's getting a free pass on any scum reads. Oh he's doing that on purpose, then people's final disposition is more towny towards him. Again scum knows this blah blah WIFOM. so again this doesn't help town at all!!!

He's still got an out, and I intend to use the full day to stir the pot and find scum. I'm leaving my vote on seth. If he flips town then it's his fault, not mine.

@seth: just end it or die. It's that simple. There is no value here for town.

[Simoyd]

wgeurts has been on this website longer than you and ought to know better than to mak

I don't want to manipulate you. and I don't want you to sheep me. It's an observation and I feel you've gone past the point where I can target specific things that I think are incorrect or inconsistent. I think I've been pretty clear on things that I disagree about with you, and I think you've tried to be clear about your perspective as well. I think that other people should just review your stuff with tunnelling in mind and come up with their own opinion and contribute it.

[Simoyd]

that quote didn't come through fully. I was referring to the entity of post 334

[Simoyd]

entirety*

[Simoyd]

sorry, by trane I mean wagon. my brain is funky.

[Simoyd]

What do you mean by end it? Be more specific.

Not understanding at this point feels like tunneling to me, which is a scum tell.

Try to put yourself in the scum's shoes

I'm trying to say that I don't see how it matters who's shoes I view it from. Even if you're town I don't see how your actions provide any value for town which couldn't also be obtained without risking your (in this case town) life. Risk for no reward is not a town motivation. It's not a scum motivation either, you're right! So this argument is just noise.

For someone whose intention is to stir the pot and find scum, you are contradicting yourself, how can the desperate attempt of leaving your vote on me on hopes that it will flip scum be "stirring the pot and finding scum"? Don't make any attempt to lynch someone based on luck and feelings, only attempt it when you have solid evidence.
Simoyd wrote:

I'm doing my own stirring: read my posts. Stirring doesn't universally require voting. I have solid evidence that you're intentionally behaving as scum:

What I'm doing is exactly Slayer's Gambit

explain it in simpler detail

You're still behaving like scum. If people believe your slayer's gambit, then this explains your scum behavior. If you're scum then you don't have to try at all to act like town. I see this as a free pass. Not sure what you mean by riddles...

You're voting me up yet you admit you have vague information, what's this? This is unreasonable.

You're doing a slayer's gambit, so you're intentionally acting as scum. So you havn't presented your town self to the group. So I have no data on your town self, only on your scum self. I am voting accordingly.

My scum partner will be so shocked and confused to find out I am attracting this much attention

It seems like a basic first layer psychology that you won't be viewed as scum if you vote the person that everyone thinks is scum.

I for one would happily bus my partner to pulp.

scum will want to be like town, so they will go on two. but we know that so they wont. What I'm saying is the scum reaction to this crap is WIFOM.

I think AlpacaAlpaca and wgeurts are saying the same thing I am: This reasoning is WIFOM. It doesn't work at the start because town doesn't flash lynch, and it doesn't work at the later because people can see what's happening and think forward however many steps they randomly choose. How can scum appear as town at that point? Flip a coin, done... I don't see how that helps us.

---

You're defending yourself, and the reads you're providing are motivated by defending yourself. I haven't found any scum hunting in your posts. This experiment is not scum hunting. I think tunnelling on you provides you the opportunity to explain and show if you're town, but you don't seem to be doing that yet. Thinking about this more, this is really a policy lynch. If someone is behaving intentionally like scum, then they should be lynched. Can you imagine seth being around still hurting town on day two? Sounds like a good policy to me. Seth, you need to start scum hunting...

[Simoyd]

I for one would happily bus my partner to pulp.

I like this a lot from you wgeurts

[Simoyd]

From town (top) to scum (bottom). Groupings are about the same, no order within.

{ Murph, Alpaca }

{ Yogurts, Hoppic, Rasko}

{ Kaladin }

{ RedCoyote }

Policy lynch:

Seth

[Simoyd]

I've went out on an obvious limb to call you town very early on in this game, much to detriment

My credit shouldn't matter to anyone either. People should form their own opinions. Not hostile, maybe just my opinion, but I think it's most effective for everyone to maintain independent thought, even if they may settle on a wagon for some time.

(still reading rest of ur post)

Your credit*

[Simoyd]

I'm a bit scared of wgeurts. If you're playing us all, then you're doing a VERY good job keeping everything under control. Respect.

[Simoyd]

what is a scum bloc. Do you mean {hoppic, RC, Seth}?

[Simoyd]

@seth: I don't see the value in responding to ad hominem or strawman fallacies (misrepresenting my arguments, then debating the misrepresentations), and I don't see the value in repeating myself any more. I trust people are capable of reading both our posts and coming to their own opinions, which I would like to hear from everyone.

[Simoyd]

Nah, I'm sarcastically referencing the post where Seth calls us both his two top scum-reads while you are my top town read.

Ur in my head. It's scary. hehe.

I'm completely new to Mafia. Only knew about the game's existence like a couple weeks ago, so I dunno, maybe my arguments are crumpets. I feel like I've done a good job being clear. I'm a senior software developer, so logic and technical communication are my strong suits. Although this is more about motivation discovery and less about production requirements, I feel it ultimately still boils down to root cause analysis. I'm not seeking validation, but I would like to hear everyone's updated opinion. The weekend has been kinda silent (not complaining, just hoping it will pick up again during the week).

[Simoyd]

that rules clarification in 363...

[Simoyd]

@Kaladin: post more. Don't care what, just do it.

[Simoyd]

What will you gain if I flip town?

Can you imagine seth being around still hurting town on day two?

I'm willing to policy lynch Seth due to that readslist alone, someone playing like that is going to coast to lylo and lose us the game.

yup

[Simoyd]

looking forward to the 2nd half of ur post

[Simoyd]

Doesn't matter anymore, it won't change the outcome.

So, you're admitting that you're scum? I think town would want to help the other town even if they die. You would still win if town wins after you die, if you're town.

I'm done talking about you. Sorry I shouldn't have even posted this.

[Simoyd]

Simon is fine

[Simoyd]

I have a hard time differentiating between ego and scum motivation.

[Simoyd]

he still has almost a week to drop the ego if he chooses... If he's scum then he can't really choose to do that, because the motivations aren't ego.

@hoppic: what makes you think he's town?

[Simoyd]

@murph: do you think he's town?

[Simoyd]

@murph: do you think he's town?

stupid question - forgot about your previous posts - ignore this

[Simoyd]

Try to get more data to engage people. I think these should all be relevant...

@Murph: What do you think about hoppic?
@Rasco: What do you think about alpaca? What about hoppic?
@Coyote: What do you think about alpaca? What about murph?
@Kaladin: what do you think about murph? what about hoppic?

[Simoyd]

I just see text for . I don't think @ does anything special, just to be more specific that a response is requested. Not a rhetorical question I guess. Don't need to do it I suppose...

[Simoyd]

@Kaladin: Do you think hoppic has said anything scummy?

[Simoyd]

RC: What don't you like about Murph?

[Simoyd]

Policy is because He's intentionally behaving as scum, which he has openly confirmed and admitted.

I can't tell the difference between his ego motivation and scum motivation. It's entirely possible he has both. I don't see any town motivation in any of his posts.

Yes it would be stupid for scum to behave like this, but it's also stupid for town to behave like that, so I don't understand that argument...

[Simoyd]

Maybe you're town and you're just ridiculously arrogant.

Is there anything specific that you think is arrogant? or just 336?

I don't want to manipulate you. and I don't want you to sheep me. It's an observation and I feel you've gone past the point where I can target specific things that I think are incorrect or inconsistent. I think I've been pretty clear on things that I disagree about with you, and I think you've tried to be clear about your perspective as well. I think that other people should just review your stuff with tunnelling in mind and come up with their own opinion and contribute it.

This post is little more than buzzwords and phrases. If you have a question for me, ask it. This grandstanding does nothing for me.

Yea sorry I was just trying to tactfully say that I disagree with some things. We had already talked about said things, but I didn't have any questions for you that weren't just banter/noise. My intention wasn't to posture.

[Simoyd]

Also I really dislike this logic of let's lynch him for being a bad town player... in a beginner's game on day 1. A policy lynch? I don't think so.

My reasoning is that I imagine playing scum, telling everyone that I'm town but intentionally behaving as scum, then making sure every post of mine shows blatant scum motivation. How would town detect that that player is scum? I don't see how you would. I think that players need to defend themselves. I don't see Seth doing that.

[Simoyd]

I like shawarma

[Simoyd]

I'm 60% sure that you're being sarcastic.

[Simoyd]

anyone who likes Tuesday is obviously scum

[Simoyd]

Is anyone else bothered by Kaladin lurking? Like closer to the start it was like, whatever. But now I'm really worried about it.

[Simoyd]

something like that

[Simoyd]

From town (top) to scum (bottom). Groupings are about the same, no order within.

{ Murph, Alpaca }

{ Yogurts, Hoppic, Rasko}

{ Kaladin }

{ RedCoyote }

Policy lynch:

Seth

Regarding RC: Really bad

[Simoyd]

I have a hard time justifying not lynching Seth tho. I dunno, I just don't get it.

[Simoyd]

yea iono lurking then parroting a random person seems like an easy scum strategy

[Simoyd]

What is Seth doing to find scum? Other than the gambit...

[Simoyd]

I just don't understand how people see town there...

[Simoyd]

True, RC is manipulating and posturing, but I find scum in every statement in every post that Seth makes. At least some of RC's posts appear to be scum hunting, and I wonder if some of the reads are just carelessness and knee jerk responses...

I feel like I've stepped back and thought about it a lot. Like seth's last post, it's just so... What would possibly motivate him to write those things as town?

[Simoyd]

post 353 still reflects my current order

Hoppic - playing the newb card really hard, but defends it confidently and rationally
Wguerts - I'm a bit scared of him. Sensing a bit of parroting, and a bit of manipulation.
Kal - I have nothing to read. He's working his way pretty high on my list from the idling, but RC and Seth are still higher scum reads

regarding wguerts and I being scum: I'm a pretty intense guy. I think I made it pretty clear people should form their own opinions and not sheep.

I know I post a lot cause I'm ADHD, but more doesn't equal accurate. Don't mean to set up a crutch for myself, but it is what it is.

Seth is an obvious train, but I believe that I've clearly outlined what I believe on that. Is there any other motion you think him (wguerts) or I or both are pressing that might be scum motivated? I can only really defend something more detailed... Not sure really what I can say regarding that accusation.

[Simoyd]

So, earlier I made a big wall about hoppic, then he responded plentifully. I specifically didn't post my detailed judgements on it, instead only posted the updated order of my reads. I think that this behaviour is certainly different than the leading you're talking about, but yes I certainly have loud opinions and clear rational communication skills. I'm not sure I would call that a scum-read in and of itself though.

[Simoyd]

Also that wall on hoppic happened before post 368. Also as I've said, I only even heard of Mafia like 3 weeks ago, so I'm certainly not experienced at this game.

[Simoyd]

like wguerts said early on, it would probably be hard to keep pace as scum and not trip up on MANY minor things. That being said, when I'm scum in a future game I will certainly try, and probably fall flat on my face.

[Simoyd]

yea, that's what I was talking about earlier as far as getting a free pass... It's an interesting strategy...

[Simoyd]

I"m gunna get night killed day 1 aren't I...

[Simoyd]

You mean hoppic? Why rask?

[Simoyd]

well hopefully more people will respond to ur wall. I has to sleep, it's 10PM here and I work tomorrow.

[Simoyd]

I feel left out

[Simoyd]

I've got nothing specific. Thanks for the analysis, though!

[Simoyd]

I'm here, but I have nothing really to say. I guess I want more people on the seth wagon and not so much on the RC wagon... Does anyone have anything else to say before we lynch? or is it etiquette to just use all the time regardless?

[Simoyd]

@Seth: Can you please post a bigger wall. I want to see a post of yours that fills at least two full screens.

[Simoyd]

I have a 4k monitor, and I have a good reason.

[Simoyd]

My friend showed me this forum a couple weeks ago.

[Simoyd]

See, Murph can post bigger walls than you too. C'mon Seth, let's see what you've got!

[Simoyd]

still Seth, that post was kinda small. I really think you could do bigger if you tried. I really think bigger is better in this case.

[Simoyd]

SETH

[Simoyd]

@wgeurts: why is hoppic so low in your list?

[Simoyd]

I can't think of any reason Seth would be fabricating false arguments this intensely as town. I'm good with Seth hammer, but yea I think wait until everyone else says their piece too.

[Simoyd]

lol