Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Roden

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This is some high effort theme bianco, I like it

[Cat Scratch Fever]

HURT: Bureau of Investigations

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Can we only choose two, or can we choose as many as our budget will allow?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

sorry but uhm why dont we try talking about why we want what we want
it seems some of us are split.

i think cenus and something else are currently most useful but who knows :shrug:

Bureau of investigations sounded like it could give us invests shrug emoji

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Printing press seems kinda useless unless I’m missing something?

Though there may be merit to the general idea of augmenting the budget either by sacrifice or trading outpost

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Code: Select all

[hurt][/hurt]

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I agree, it seems to only delay getting access to better actions by a day

Let’s just gamble lol

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah printing press doesn’t give us more $$$

I don’t like jury >_>

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Games with mid alignment changes have to be called out in the queue, no?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm getting town feels from Marci and aureal

[Cat Scratch Fever]

On second thought the aureal read may have been a bit premature, but I find myself nodding to a lot of her posts

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Mm since we can only do 1 of the projects under "developments"

My preference is for either the Bureau of Investigation or Trading Post, I'm not going to get really fussed over which

And neighborhood watch or election security, maaaybe intelligentia as the other

Thoughts?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

yeah thats what im saying! its good but since we can only do things once i feel like we need to save it

if we remove it now wouldnt it be an advantage to them to make them seem more townie?

We can do non-development projects twice, just not on the same day and not on consecutive days.

- Alianna

Saving our first Neighborhood Watch until Day 3 seems like the most effective choice. Maybe combine it with the Census that day? That seems like a combo that would panic the scum team.

Ooh I like this. Why day 3 though?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

"murderous cats"

I uh, didnt have anything to do with that

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't think it is. I think only assassination is flipless

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Sacrifice ($0)

-- if target Utopian is not an Insurgent, they die and town gets $20,000 more in tomorrow's budget.

vs

Trading Outpost ($20,000)

-- ups the daily budget to $70,000.

theres a difference in wording

sacrifice is a one time gain, trading post is not.

sacrifice is so beyond useless right now, why are we AIMING to get a townie killed when we should be preserving our numbers? sacrifice will be much more useful when we KNOW WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH THE $$

Are we just not voting for a lim today then?

Each project can only be used at most twice per game, so it's better to save it for when you actually need the money the next day

HURT: Election Security

I think this is the best non-development project. There's not much point in saving this one for later, because voting manipulation is disabled at ELO anyway, whereas Neighborhood Watch & Intelligentia could be more useful later.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

No, Census is the one with the 8 player requirement

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Spoiler:

Sacrifice ($0)

-- if target Utopian is not an Insurgent, they die and town gets $20,000 more in tomorrow's budget.

vs

Trading Outpost ($20,000)

-- ups the daily budget to $70,000.

theres a difference in wording

sacrifice is a one time gain, trading post is not.

sacrifice is so beyond useless right now, why are we AIMING to get a townie killed when we should be preserving our numbers? sacrifice will be much more useful when we KNOW WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH THE $$

Are we just not voting for a lim today then?

My point is sacrifice can just be the regular lim but we get paid for it.

But ehh I’m not gonna argue more for it

HURT: trading post

I find this line of thinking so odd, it's the second time you've brought up not using our lim. Which we could still do even IF we went for sac. VOTE: RCEnigma

Why do you think this is more likely to come from scum versus town with a different opinion on mech?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I agree that Cakez hasn't done much aside from a couple of mech posts that I remember, but if we were to handwave away everyone's mech posts, I suspect most people haven't done much either

Drew's line of questioning feels a bit strange though like why does it matter if Cakez is experienced? I can see him making 92 as either alignment

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Pre Edit: That is my point Cat, what is AI about it?

Doesn't the last sentence in 190 answer your question?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

*Answer your question at least from Marci's perspective

I'm kinda eh on whether a "self-conscious" tell is AI - I feel like it'd vary from person to person more than anything - but saying Cakez is experienced doesn't really make sense unless you're saying he's too experienced to drop a tell like that

[Cat Scratch Fever]

bro even if you asked me rodens style i wouldnt be able to tell you when i say i have a failing memory, i have a failing memory

i think that what he did is scummy though and i stand by that. if you want i can put it in simpler terms for you though
"go king give us nothing!"

What does Roden have to do with your Cakez read?

not feeling anything AI from anyone yet so I'll sit on my rvs for now

and not pushing to find out info anywhere

Do you think scum would make a post like Cakez here?

Satan Dammit

-Drew

We will talk about this, do better

Drew

.

- Alianna

The irony

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Merlyn

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Merlyn

Not fully understanding the Merlyn votes.

-Drew

2 parts curious what about RCE made her want to vote there when lots of other people were also pushing things that were maybe mechanically suboptimal from her POV

1 part I don't feel like keeping my RVS vote and saw possible momentum elsewhere

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I... don't? I think it looked like that's what she's doing though, and I'm interested in why that particular disagreement stood out to her

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: high flying dwarf
who is this player?

Has no one else pinged you yet?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I actually can't think of anything else that I find mechanically suboptimal but the idea of a no lim for no reason. What's given you the impression there are lots of people I could be pushing for mech but aren't?

I remember you were pushing for increasing the budget pretty hard and several ppl disagreed with that

[Cat Scratch Fever]

basically, i think we want {bureau of elections or guildhall} and then {neighbourhood watch or intelligentia}

HURT: Bureau of Elections

I think what you said about the developments makes sense, but what do you think of the argument that neighborhood watch and intelligentia can be better served later in the game?

not a fan of csf's 120 - it feels a bit like, overly cautious? i mean, of course most reads this early are going to be a little premature, and 'town feels' isn't that strong of a statement anyway. i feel like it's self-conscious of giving out tmi townreads too easily, which is something scum do sometimes

no, I'm just aware that I can get confbiased on even early townleans sometimes, and on review, Aureal hadn't done anything except mech talk that could easily come from scum as well up to that point

VOTE: cat scratch fever

there can only be one

Spoiler:

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Mb you spent more time talking about it than neighborhood watch

[Cat Scratch Fever]

regardless i'd be interested if you have any examples of like, being cautious about early townleans as town in the past? or if you don't have that, when you've confbiased on an incorrect townlean early. i don't want to take too much of your time, so just going off memory is fine

My most recent towngame is linked here in which I only had one townread early (on someone who has a really polarized meta) and deliberately withheld other townreads

Before that there was Hollow Knight Mafia where I let Gimli coast off of an early towny feelings even though he did nothing towny the rest of day 1

[Cat Scratch Fever]

but i certainly wouldn't say you only had one townread early; or if that's true, your posting didn't seem to reflect that, with additional townreads given to adorable and wgeurts unless i'm misreading?

I don't think those were that early. The game was smaller and there was like no mech discussion so it moved out of RVS much faster than this one

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i'd also like to ask, given your merlyn push, do you think advocating for no elim is equivalent to a mechanical disagreement on something like the development abilities? additionally, do you think RCE was actually advocating for a no elim in those posts?

RC wasn't actually advocating for a no lim though? I think he wanted to use Sacrifice in place of the regular elimination, which is along the lines of project discussion. I think she kind of went "he's asking for no lim and that's odd," because typically asking for no lim is anti town, but I'm not sure why she thought that was scummy in this case exactly

and I guess part of the answer is that Merlyn just doesn't care as much about the other project mech stuff that was happening today, which is fair. But it seemed like jumping on RCE for saying "no lim" when that wasn't really happening

[Cat Scratch Fever]

based on this interaction, can you elaborate? i think the suggestion from him - to use the vig as a double elimination - would be a fairly reasonable way to use the sacrifice ability, and would counteract the issue you brought up (that mafia would control the council). it seems like a fairly normal discussion on mechanics, so i'm not sure what your thought process is here

Not really on topic but isn't double day like really low EV

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Hi Snivy, do you have any reads so far?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i agree rce wasn't actually advocating for a no lim, he was just using it rhetorically to question people's opposition to using the sacrifice. i think merlyn misunderstood what he was trying to say, and her push on him definitely wasn't good. but like, based on merlyn's interpretation of that post, that it was advocating for a no lim, i don't think it's strange for her to vote him for it, or to prioritise it over some other kind of mechanical disagreement. so when you're asking things like "why is she voting rce for a mechanical disagreement" and not addressing the core issue of merlyn's interpretation of that post, it kind of feels like you're more interested in pushing merlyn than sorting her. it's not like pushing merlyn for that post is inherently scummy, but i don't see why you go about it in this way that doesn't really address the elephant in the room that needs to be resolved. is there anything i'm misunderstanding about your side of the interaction?

What do you think Merlyn misunderstood? Based on 181, it seems like she understood fine?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Ok, I think I read correctly. Initially I didn't get the impression that RCE was using it was a rhetorical device, but was instead saying that you can execute someone regularly or execute someone via Sacrifice to similar effect except Sacrifice gives you cash, which I think he is affirming above

I guess my qualm with 181 is - why is this something worth voting over when at least one person was going to be yeeted out via Sacrifice anyway? Two day eliminations is quite punishing for the town (Double Day setup is 13 town vs 3 scum), but even assuming that Merlyn doesn't know that, what is the material difference between the two options? It seems like a fairly minor point of disagreement imo.

RE not an effective scum tactic, I don't think scum will always do what is most effective; sometimes they just do whatever to get by. I feel like she saw that someone was pushing no lim and decided to push them for it without really thinking about the merits of the argument

Note: fixed broken formatting

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i was trying to find a way to make sacrifice work, if not now then later so eh

What did you mean by this? Do you think Sacrifice should be used today, or were you playing devil's advocate?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't think I understand all the votes on Merlyn.

What part? And what's your Merlyn read?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

ok then lets wagon penguin now

lol why?

i don't like their votes

pedit rip penguin

can you elaborate on this?

You mentioned that you didn't like his Merlyn vote based on a misunderstanding, but then he later moved his vote after the misunderstanding was cleared up so is this still scummy in your opinion?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Flavor Leaf replaces HighFlyingDwarf

Welcome!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

But like why tho

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I need someone to tell me if this is me wearing the old tinfoil hat, but was this TMI that Devil Alianna is now ignoring?

I think the 20k is because scum get 20k if we only fund one project. Since assassination is 60k, it would take up all of our budget, and we'd only be able to fund 1 project

[Cat Scratch Fever]

But like why tho

because i think there may be more intent than simply a misunderstanding

that's the only ping I've gotten all game zzz

can someone tell me if roden is being voted for anything out of rvs

I think the Roden wagon is a pressure wagon from RVS

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Idk about Merlyn anymore, I think she's probably town. Her little tinfoil thing about Alianna on the last page felt like it was coming from a town mindset trying to spot TMI, and she seems to be reassessing with new info. Her tone felt a bit defensive but that could just be a personal thing

I think meowmeow and RCEnigma are town

I don't think anything Penguin has done so far is really scum indicative for him

VOTE: Cakez

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm a simple guy, I see RCEnigma, I replace in without realizing what I'm getting into.

Hey FL! Quick question, are you scum?

He's not gonna stumble at answering this question if he is

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Up!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

btw devil you seem to be pushing merlyn kinda hard but you're still voting me why is that so

Like I said to Marci, despite being a hydra we have only one vote.

And just because we are poking Merlyn a bit, doesn't make her a hard scum read.

That and you are the main read both Alianna and I agree on.

Not sure why you are so worried about our vote on you.

-Drew

This makes it seem like you're not really tr'ing merlyn, but I thought you were thinking town on merlyn because of meta?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

No idea

I still think Merlyn might've TMI'd you and Devil and I think her way of reading you is too clinical. Overconfidence is NAI for you, in my experience how townie you are depends on how hard you hit the slay button. But I can also tell that our back and forth was going nowhere and it's better if I just disengage and observe for now.

You/Aureal/Devil/RC are my town reads right now, CSF/Leaf/Meow/Nurse/Penguin/Cakes are in my null stew pile, Merlyn/Snivy are under my watchful eye.

Is that something merlyn would be expected to know though

[Cat Scratch Fever]

HURT: Intelligentia

I was originally thinking we could use Intelligentia later, but when "later' finally comes around, we'll probably have better developments available tbh and might not be able to use it then

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I did have a solid town read on her, but her posting last night/yesterday had me waivering some. Did you miss that?

-Drew

yeah I know you guys had a dustup about asking her to explain her Marci read, but wasn't that cleared up after she explained the read?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Cakez have you played with Penguin before?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I did have a solid town read on her, but her posting last night/yesterday had me waivering some. Did you miss that?

-Drew

yeah I know you guys had a dustup about asking her to explain her Marci read, but wasn't that cleared up after she explained the read?

Sorry looking your ISO, I realized i forgot about 441 - is this the reason for your continued doubts there instead of the (lack of) explanation of the Marci TR?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Guildhall seems a bit like a crapshoot tbh

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Suggests that the number of Insurgents is >2 because it finds if exactly two players are Insurgents and can be used if one Insurgent is dead.
Census/Intelligentsia is also a pretty good combo to use in the midgame when one Insurgent is dead. If the number of living Insurgents is 2, we either know both of them are in a POE of 5, which confirms a minimum of 3 people due to the restriction that 8 people must be alive to take a Census, or we know at least one of them is outside the POE of 5, which is still valuable information. If it's not 2, then this isn't quite as strong, but it's still somewhat informative.
Idk how I feel about maxing out the budget though. I'm thinking that since money we spend can end up financing Them, it might be good to try to get things done as cheaply as possible while still buying two projects each day.

This is an interesting idea. We'd have to do Intelligentia first though to get the feedback from that and then see if Census is worth it the next day

What did you think about choosing that today as our secondary choice because we might have other stuff we want to do later on?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'll second that

[Cat Scratch Fever]

marci, roden
merlyn
csf, snivy
cakez, flavor leaf, random nurse
devil, rcenigma
aureal, penguinpower

i think i'm here right now. i don't really get common townreads on RCE. none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

I'm surprised to see rodent so high

[Cat Scratch Fever]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

I figured you were sheeping me bc I remember I asked merlyn a question around the same time

Why is your motivation so low? What would get you more engaged

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Flavor how much have you read

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I did some ISOing to verify what you were saying and unfortunately for me and my lack of scumreads this game your claims about talking about votes every game early day one check out - it's more specific meta then just the lackadaisical Penguin meta I was thinking of

I remember you said you didn't care about his meta. What made you do this and reconsider?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Also what does lackadaisical penguin meta mean?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Basically my impression of Penguins meta is that he powers up later in the game and doesn't do too much early on which happens regardless of his alignment. But I was arguing that his post that pinged me was scummy regardless of that meta. But then he pointed out that he was very specifically looking into the votes on day one for his play and I went back and did ISOs and saw that ya it was NAI

ok so 585 is what made you go do some meta?

I think that's possible, but you also checked into the game two separate times (586 and 599 just going off of the timestamps) before unvoting. I know you're someone who catches up chronologically like me. Why did you unvote later?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

also what was the "ugh" in 586 in response to?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i failed in my quest to understand snivy, but i think his read on fl is probably +town? i mean, i still don't get it at all, but it probably makes more sense for snivy to have just struck a chord with one of the posts which i think are blatantly nai vs like, just blurting out a townread on fl for no reason and not being able to back it up when it was questioned. i mean, as scum i think you think about these things more and most people play it a bit safer whereas as town if snivy had that thought at one point he might have just gone all in on it and doesn't feel like he can walk it back now

i think flavor leaf's zealous crusade to prevent anyone from even asking about his weird relationship with snivy is scummy though. 'hounding' is such a melodramatic word to use for people asking questions about something that is obviously strange. how many votes does snivy even have here? most of the people he portrays as vultures looking to prey on the poor little snivy aren't even pushing him right now. and i think if you're being townread it's at least normal to be more cautious than... whatever this is. it feels like he decided this was the angle he wanted to take and then went much further with it than anyone ever would because he's flavor leaf and if anyone calls him out on it he can shout louder

@fl;
in your eyes, do you think a post like 466 or 468 would be particularly difficult to fake as scum?
and re 682 do you expect someone like snivy to be really familiar with your reputation?

i agree with a lot of this post

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I reread the last ~five pages, and I don't think the conversation was really centered around pushing Snivy to begin with. Like yes, people were asking Snivy to explain the Flavor townlean, but people were also talking about Aureal, RCE's vote, and meowmeow's reads

It didn't become a "thing" until starting from around 658 and then that's where most of the discussion went because all his posts were about Snivy

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It reads like a discredit, but Marci's case is nothing and you're pretty much saying it's nothing. So it's like...it feels like you're looking for an argument with her. I think it would make more sense to look at the other people on your wagon who either followed Marci or came up with their own reason for voting you.

And this, yes I am discrediting her push and saying it's nothing. I don't really care if I get in an argument tho, ig it could help me generate more reads.

Is she town bad pushing you or scum bad pushing you though

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You came around on Marci because... She loves cats?

This can't be as simple as Aureal protecting their buddy right?

-Drew

Aureal noticed the Cakez wagon has somehow become the big thing that is happening and thinks it'd be a good idea to know why.

Looking into a few other voters...

Marci, what's with all the pushing Cakez without voting him for so long? Like really what's with 285 in particular when you weren't voting anyone at all despite suspecting Cakez?

CSF, what prompted your Cakez vote?

I don't exactly remember the original reason I voted him tbh lol

My best guess is because he pressure voted someone who hadn't posted in the game and prolly just never picked up their pm instead of pushing the game forward, which pinged me a bit

I was also not interested in my merlyn vote anymore at the time and was looking elsewhere

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Aureal, what is your read on Cakez?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm not entirely sure (part of the reason I'm asking for explanations from the voters) but loosely leaning town. I haven't seen anything to scumread and have felt lost for scumreads like he has so I was kind of taken aback by this wagon being a thing. It's annoyingly reminiscent of our prior game which I've referenced.

FL might have something of a point in that I hadn't considered Cakez's read on him as a difference between the games; but I think it was reasonable for Cakez to TR him for his big wall posting entrance in dividing conner and not TR him for his not so big entrance here, so getting to a scumread here doesn't seem particularly weird to me. They've got plenty more history between them that could maybe explain things, but I'm not privy to it.

I get not having scum reads - some games are just like that - but some of what Cakez has done has felt like going through the motions. Why he re-evaluated Penguin felt strange to me and didn't seem the match up with his posting/frame of mind. I also remember he said he’s going to town hunt bc he didn't have scumreads, but then I don’t really remember him doing much of that. He threw one tr at Roden and that was kind of just it.

The reasoning behind the FL vote (“reactive/not taking initiative”) is interesting, because it’s actually the opposite to how I felt about FL’s posting and even if it were reactive, I’m not sure why that would be scum indicative for FL in particular. I'm curious what he expected FL to have done in the last “2 pages” when he wrote 758. I haven’t read Dividing Connor, but I might take a look later. I just don’t really have the capacity to read another game right now because hangover

Spoiler:

Speaking of scumspects though
VOTE: flavor leaf
Last couple pages FL has been super underwhelming. Feels like hes just kinda here reacting to stuff, there's not any initiative

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Also also Alianna defended cakes again with Marci pushing there in some capacity. I get hydra dissonance but I think the falloff would have been discussed at some point between you two.

This is a good point

[Cat Scratch Fever]

can we just vote cakez out pls

bcuz hes scum

what even was the reason flavor leaf flipped into pushing cakez? because this lowkey feels weird and makes me want to unvote if anything LOL

this trajectory is actually super scummy.

@Cakez - what's your read on Marcistar?

You wanted to talk and actually engage, I might be convinced to go on here?

Can you explain their push on you because this is a hilarious trajectory imo

I kinda agree actually

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@CSF - Dividing Connor basically I replaced in around same time this game, hard defended scum, town read Cakez, went on to get hard pocketed by Merlyn to the point I knew I was pocketed, and still pushed a misfade on Cakez near the end game.

I was more interested in whether it made sense for Cakez to scumread you based on your entrance here vs there

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@CSF - what’s your take on Marcistar telling me to read the game to get their reasonings? Because I actively posted every reason of theirs in their ISO.

Feels like they’re actively trying to avoid having arguments for Cakez scum.

It’s also weird because I was pushing Cakez as scum at the time, so it looks like they were trying to push Cakez while keeping me discredited, which is a super weird spot.

Because there really is just that one reason that Marci is wanting Cakez, and personally, I think there are many better reasons than the one they’ve posted.

I'm still reading, but I kind of think if marci is scum, I don't really see how it benefits scum!her to refuse to respond to you like this? Like why wouldn't she just answer you, you know?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Like why bother with all the antagonism. It just makes her look bad

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don’t have any lingering questions atm about meow town.
I also have csf town if I were to order reads. But they are in a null area in my head if that makes sense. I kind of just nod along to their posting because it looks and sounds good not that I necessarily agree with what’s being said. I’ve come across this before where CSF was town but I don’t know if it’s CSF!town indicative or CSF indicative. Would not elim today though.

Disagree on Drew’s hydra, if I had another vote it’s there.

This comes off a bit like you want to dissuade FL from townreading me, but if you tr me anyway, why bother writing it... am I missing something?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Also also Alianna defended cakes again with Marci pushing there in some capacity. I get hydra dissonance but I think the falloff would have been discussed at some point between you two.

This is a good point

It's really not. I said this...

bcuz hes scum

I'll rephrase then, why do you still think he's scum?
If it's the same stuff as before, then I'll just agree to disagree because I don't find any of that scummy.

- Alianna

...and I did have a slight townlean on Cakez at the time, but it was mostly "this stuff that marci finds scummy is not scummy." I never had a substantive TR there.
I then dropped off the face of the earth for all of yesterday (here and in hydra chat) and Drew pushed Cakez for completely unrelated posts that I hadn't even read yet because I wasn't around yesterday. I'm not saying people should have known I wasn't around or anything, but I was never TRing Cakez all that strongly and the posts being referenced are completely different.
I have actually come around to the idea of scum!Cakez, but now it seems the push there is fading. I'll see where Drew wants to vote.

- Alianna

All right

I do remember other instances of hydra dissonance as well though, and while there is always going to be some hydra dissonance due to both heads not being online at the same time, I feel like hydras that don't talk to each other are going to be more likely to be scum based on my own experiences in hydras

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Hi something came up, and Im effectively v/la for s few days. I might not be able to check into this game often before deadline with it imminently pending

I'll check in tomorrow to see if I need to move my vote

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I see we got a deadline extension but I'll do my best to catch up before bed

About sacrifice, I don't care to argue for or against it at this point, but it's not a public vote and if we insist on counting two separate votes today, someone needs to take that initiative (and it can't be me lol)

I kinda liked flavor proposing himself as the sacrifice. It wouldn't be very easy to weasel out of that one, I think, unless only scum were in it and even then they'd be outed I think? I guess I'll keep reading to see if he sticks with this proposal though

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think it's shady as fuck that I say "ok let's do resolve this and do it all today" and then see you get cold feet and then pre-flip six different slots

If I'm scum I don't need to do shit here if you Infinity and Marci are town because you're already planning to flip the three of you by Day 3. Scum!me literally just sits here and does nothing and my hands are clean. I gain literally nothing as scum by inserting myself into this cluster fuck and putting forward a plan to get more info today instead of waiting until Day 3.

No.

We SPECIFICALLY don’t do it all today.

That’s like the whole thing.

And if you are scum with Marci, this is absolutely incorrect that you get nothing.

I gain absolutely nothing from playing like chaotic toxic shit and isn’t stopping you from voting this way

Sacrifice happens at night btw as I understand it, so it's either a night 1 or night 2 sacrifice

But setting that aside for a sec- if the theoretical lim order doesn't change, why does it matter? I didnt understand

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: infinity

[Cat Scratch Fever]

the cakez one was out of panic

792 i was debating if i should turn my vote somewhere else but the only other wagon was marci and even though theyre town i just decided to go back

Why Penguin?

didnt like a couple of their beginning posts and then the rest of their posts were NAI from there on out

Since we have more time now, can you give us a reads list?

town: aureal? leaf
townlean: meow marci
null: everyone and STILL notably devil
scumlean: cakez
scum: penguin snivy

i believe csf you and nurse are in the middle because i barely got an influence from you 3

This list is really strange

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Well I guess the scum reads track if snivy thinks penguin hasn't done anything towny (believable)

Why is aureal so high though?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@fl yes, i do see why you scumread her, but we just have a very different approach to scumhunting. i'm well aware that we've been townreading a lot of level 0 scummy things, and we do need to decide on a lim pretty soon. we just have a feeling that people like you, meow, or devil are scum controlling the narrative and it's part of why we don't love the biggest wagons right now. we'll finish catching up and decide on a vote tomorrow.

What did you mean by those people are controlling the narrative? I feel like devil & FL have been pushing in different directions from meow

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I kinda liked flavor proposing himself as the sacrifice. It wouldn't be very easy to weasel out of that one, I think, unless only scum were in it and even then they'd be outed I think? I guess I'll keep reading to see if he sticks with this proposal though

What do you think about this if you've caught up? It's the only thing I really took note of in either argument that went on. My impression was that FL was offering to sac himself tonight, but from the argument he had with Roden it looks like he's saying he never meant for it to be tonight.

I think it's towny. I think FL didn't realize sacrifice was at night instead of during the day, and didn't want to be the first flipped because he wouldn't get a chance to solve with a flip

I think this is what a lot of the misunderstanding between him and Roden might've stemmed from. Otherwise I have no idea what that was all about

I guess I want to know if that sacrifice offer was conditional on him scum reading Marci because he ended up townreading there I think. Still think it was towny to bring it up in the first place though

[Cat Scratch Fever]

was that hammer?

I really hope that was hammer, I was gonna come in and hit y'all with another prod dodge lol, but at least now I don't have to feel so bad for peacing out of the thread for so long

(for context, my team at work is trying to get ready for a new feature release this week and I worked another 16 hours today my schedule should free up by the time the weekend rolls around though!)

[Cat Scratch Fever]

HURT: torture this seems like the obvious best choice for today

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Though we can't unlock the next level of investigative development if we do torture because the times are tough and we are strapped for cash y'all

Maybe the other can be trading outpost today? Or yolo gamble on guildhall

[Cat Scratch Fever]

4 maf makes sense with the no kill if scum can't always kill which I remember is what someone speculated yesterday iirc

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I actually think trading post or sac for the other. Open to hearing other suggestions though

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think flavor leaf is the best choice

It's plurality voting

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh you're right

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Aureal why did you vote Infinity yesterday?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i think 3 is the most likely answer, but the mod makes a point of making it ambiguous whether or not the mafia actually have a factional kill which i think implies it's more likely they *don't* have one

i think it could pretty easily be 4 as a result of that

it at least seems more likely that this is the case than the mod lied about projects funding the mafia

I don’t necessarily love the way that Meow talks looking back on Day 1.

This is an example of Meowmeow seeming kind of TMI imo.

There’s a lot of posts Meow makes where it looks like they’re wrangling the gamestate how they wanted with by using their reads, in a way that looks very townie early in the game, but reading their ISO back, it looks kind of like they’re trying to keep the game going the way they want it.

Does anyone have experience with ScumMeow? Are they normally decently town read as scum?

I believe they're a hidden alt

And I saw that post earlier but my initial thought was that it was almost too on the nose to come from scum

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Devil FL is your top townread yes? & you're voting for Torture as well - who do you want to see get Tortured tonight?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm still townreading both of you, so I'm not going to support FL being the target here. I think it's best used on a scummier slot. (Not that I don't have any flavor-related concerns about it. But I know nobody is going to care about that because mechanics.)

Who?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

im actually fine using torture on RCE too, but we should probably decide beforehand

Agree

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Can you explain your reads on Aureal and Marcistar, Merlyn?

Aureal had a lot of posts D1 that felt kind of reasonable and level headed, but when I went back and read them I noticed they're most about mech. She was on the Infinity wagon. She townreads you and expressed doubt that we should even check your alignment. She's played with you- she wasn't sure you were town in dividing connor right till the end. Why isn't she a least doubting your alignment or seeing reason in checking it today?

Marci has moved down on my list a bit because although I've read her tone as town (I thought it was awfully confident and carefree for scum, and I got authentic vibes from it rather than scum pretending to be confident and carefree), getting her to do anything today has been like pulling teeth. I could see her as scum hiding in the background today. But even her post a minute ago makes me want to move her back up again.

I really like this post

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Marcistar

I think this is good. She's skated by largely on tone so far, but I feel like she's just been coming in to argue against people's scumreads of her instead of trying to find scum

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Town

Merlyn, Snivy
Enchant, FL
Meowmeow*, Devil, Hu Tao
Aureal
RCEnigma, Cakez? Kinda forgot about him after day 1, Marcistar

Scum

I put a star next to meowmeow because I was kind of glossing over her posts and thinking they were obv town

but after she revealed she was Ausuka, I might need to put more brain cells to the read. She can definitely produce a lot of towny sounding content

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah, it’s good.

Still in their scum range, but i might wanna move off.

Looks like i might be heading towards Marcistar tbh.

If Aureal is scum, they’re pocketing me so hard, and it’s starting to work tbh.

VOTE: Marcistar

I read dividing connor and kinda thought she was lurkwolf tbh. She doesn't feel like that here

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah I know. I was referring to Merlyn there

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think there's a difference between thinking FL is towny and knowing FL is town shrugs

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I read dividing connor and kinda thought she was lurkwolf tbh. She doesn't feel like that here

It's definitely more reminiscent of my other game with scum Merlyn than dividing connor. She can definitely be active and townread and daring. It took me until elo to get her because she damn near bussed her rolecop partner on day one- it was townies jostling around at the last moment that saved them there while Merlyn sat on the wagon.

can you link? I have some time now

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Well she can definitely spew out some reasonable sounding analysis. But I think I might've found a possible scumtell that is present in that Newbie game and dividing connor and isn't present here though! I will keep it in my back pocket for safekeeping unless I need it though

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: marci

true i guess

What is this in response to?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: marci

true i guess

What is this in response to?

Do you think Marci is going to flip scum because the reason for scum reading her is strong in 1866 or because you think Fl is town and it's a town motivated wagon?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i'd like to hear thoughts about rce more since he seems to mostly be a consensus scumread and i'm a lot more like, ambivalent but would lean town if you pushed me

I put rce kinda low in my list because he's just been strongly townreading the Marci slot since day 1 and it doesn't feel like there's enough reassessment

[Cat Scratch Fever]

because if FL dies I would rather sheep them sooner

however, if they are scum and confess, i think it should be an ok deal

What's your read on Marci though?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I have a similar vibe that he's a little reluctant to be on the Marci wagon from 1867 and constantly saying he's willing to pivot elsewhere

I didn't really get the impression that he scum read Marci until his post on this page

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Wait what's the plan for recount tomorrow? How does it get used as a parity check if it only tells us binary y/n if there was a scum on the wagon but not how many?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Aha that makes sense. I'm on board

[Cat Scratch Fever]

the fact that CSF and Hu Tao are on the wagon makes me feel really good about it. inb4 theyre scum rollin me, but i still feel good right now lol

I won’t be in the council after the flip so thoughts on the wagon composition in the case Marci goes through and flips town?

What do you make of the wagon composition since you think Marci is town anyway?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

The Election Security part of the plan is just ensuring we don't get screwed over by any secret vote shenanigans.

- Alianna

yeah that's fine. If we pair Recount with Sacrifice, we don't need the augmented budget anyway

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh I get what Enchant is saying

But bruh why didn't you bring it up earlier

[Cat Scratch Fever]

aureal has been the counterwagon attempt for a minute.

i pushed aureal earlier and nobody cared, and then marci gets pushed and everyone starts to want aureal. thats scum indicative of marciscum imo

But... you were voting me earlier, saying Merlyn and marci were also candidates to push. Why would scum not go for it then and instead wait for you to change your mind? If you're thinking this is a scum defense of marci, that would implicate Merlyn with her. So it'd be quite odd for them to not strike while the iron is hot seeing as you were likely to turn against scum next- Merlyn at the least should know you're pretty fickle and that was likely to happen.

Why did you ask this question btw

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Honestly, Enchant's looking like a fade tomorrow bar a guilty.

I would argue that Merlyn is the fade if Marci flips scum.

-

I actually think Snivy. His vote felt like a clumsy bus to me, but let's see

[Cat Scratch Fever]

aureal has been the counterwagon attempt for a minute.

i pushed aureal earlier and nobody cared, and then marci gets pushed and everyone starts to want aureal. thats scum indicative of marciscum imo

But... you were voting me earlier, saying Merlyn and marci were also candidates to push. Why would scum not go for it then and instead wait for you to change your mind? If you're thinking this is a scum defense of marci, that would implicate Merlyn with her. So it'd be quite odd for them to not strike while the iron is hot seeing as you were likely to turn against scum next- Merlyn at the least should know you're pretty fickle and that was likely to happen.

Why did you ask this question btw

Because the situation confuses me and I don't think it's that simple.

It seems like a strange question to ask because it's like asking why didn't scum bus Marci pre-emptively

Is that what you think happened here?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh I get what Enchant is saying

But bruh why didn't you bring it up earlier

Counterquestion: Why you didn't figure it yourself?

Because I don't spend much time thinking about mech beyond a surface level

And you can't just reverse uno card me, you still have to answer my question my guy

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Like, I'm townreading the wagon and scumreading Marci so it feels like this should be getting resistance from scum. But not this sort of last minute, anemic resistance. Scum all staying off rather than bussing but also only putting up a token resistance just feels wrong. In a scum Marci world it feels like they should either be bussing for towncred or going hard trying to drive a counterwagon.

I see

My 2c is that scum probably don't want to be seen as super hard defending a slot that isn't towning it up anyway and leave a bunch of bad associatives. I wouldn't be super surprised if scum hopped on towards the end of the wagon either

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This site is really testing my patience tonight

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: recount

There's a decent list of folks I think might be best on the vote count because overall I think we should pick someone viewed as town by the majority and someone more controversial. I'm fine with being one of the voters. I'm thinking if it's me that meow or CSF would be good choices as the other voter.

For the lim itself I'd be good with Aureal or Cakez. Devil is on my ??? list these days but I'm not feeling confident about that.

I'm ok with being one of the voters for the recount

But do we still want recount? What enchant brought up at the end of day yesterday seemed to throw a wrench into the strategy

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think the newspapers are just flavor

No pun intended

... And aren't game impacting

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I am a big mech newbie, as no doubt evidenced by a bunch of things I've already said in this game. But if there was a billboard option of 50K right now that said 'guaranteed scum catch' we'd all pick it and not consider it a waste, right?

I don't think it is a guaranteed scum catch

It's more like this: if we end up voting out town, then we get to use Recount as a parity cop check. If we end up voting scum, then scum can self hammer and mess up the Recount result so the result isn't useful in this scenario -- we would have spent $60k on something not useful.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I meant that the mafia would self hammer close to end of day as possible, after it has been collectively decided they are today's lim (so they were going to die anyway)

Thinking about it some more, Recount is almost like an insurance policy... we would get more info if we mess up today, and I think that's not a bad thing

I also just looked at the billboard again and there really is not much else better lol

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Dumb question probably but why do we want 2 people on the recount instead of 1?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh do you mean votes?

Yeah I meant votes

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think i got poisoned.

I received something saying that ‘i am feeling terribly unwell.”

To be clear, this isn't related to the Torture flavor in 2169 is it?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm simultaneously getting shaded for my reads being too bad and my reads being too good. That's just lovely. :/

I don't really like how you're framing this... it's like framing it as if the points lobbed against you are somehow contradictory but I don't really think they are

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I am not sure why i still care.

Probably i should't.

Do whatever.

You've been pretty consistently voting Devil since yesterday - do you think they're scum?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i'm p willing to just say fl is town and just, if scum can sabotage torture, i mean whatever

VOTE: aureal

i'm sure fl is going to come in and push the votes wherever he wants but i like this for now

Did you reassess on your scumreads on Cakez and Devil from yesterday?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: aureal

[Cat Scratch Fever]

you can put me in the recount

In my onion, I think that Enchant, Aureal and Cakes should be the eliminate, sacrifice and recount in any order.

I don't hate this

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't really think Aureal/Cakez look that SvS based on how Cakez pushed Aureal as a counterwagon to Marci yesterday and also voted her right out of the gate today

I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts on this too as they're both kinda independently scummy

[Cat Scratch Fever]

RCE could also be scum bc his defense of marci yesterday seemed kind of thin

Enchant I was kind of townleaning bc I think he might not bring up the flaw with the Recount plan if he were scum. But it's also Enchant so

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I've been feeling a little about her lately because a few times now she's popped in with "why did you say THAT, it seems pointless" questions aimed at me that feel rather like she's trying to undermine me. I don't really know why my comment about the way the marci flip went down was supposed to be weird: it seems pretty obvious to me that scumflips with nothing but your townreads on the wagon are going to be vanishingly rare, especially in earlier stages of a game like this.

Which posts? & which comment about the marci flip?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

HURT: assassination

VOTE: no elimination

[Cat Scratch Fever]

HURT: Injunction

VOTE: No Elim

[Cat Scratch Fever]

gg all!

Enchant carried us with his mech

I'm interested in seeing the review thread. Game felt scumsided, maybe not numbers wise as Enchant pointed out but in terms of how much info Scum had over Town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

For now, I want to say that the game wasn't supposed to end this way; I meant for a n:n situation with no voting manipulation in play to result in a scum win, but I have messed up the wincons, sorry.

I wouldn't feel too bad. The setup was still fun, and I also really enjoyed the flavor

Thanks for modding!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I completely forgot about the gift tbh and didn't know it could be sabotaged