Open 713: Jungle Republic [Game Over]

[Almost50]

Hi!
I was following the game since it started with the intention to sub-in whenever possible, but only to carry on with my "you were killed on N1" series.

Btw, I only unsubscribed the thread yesterday after I got bored with how slow this was going. I believe I was at page 9.

From what I can remember I had Beef as my top TR. I also had Town leans on Thor, N_M & TGP.

I only had two Scum leans, and -funnily enough- my own slot was one of them. The other one is Korina.

Because of my Scum lean on BuJaber I have had Town leans on Espeo. Fanta, wilky & Montosh, but now they're all back to null.

Any questions? None? Good!

[Almost50]

I usually soul read N_M. Granted I was wrong about him in one recent game (and the other HE messed it up), but generally speaking I kinda can tell his scum lurking from his Town lurking, and his wilky push feels like his Town tunnel game.

[Almost50]

If it's a soul read why is it only a lean?

Because I -obviously- can't provide you with hard evidence! And -as I said- I was WRONG about him in a recent game where THREE TOWNIES (including myself) defended him and he flipped Scum so it's not 100%

[Almost50]

The evidence bit doesn't have anything to do with anything, right?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Like "I have a Town READ on N_M" .. "Why?" .. "Because I

feel

his play is Town" .. "Awrright! I agree then!" (????)

My definition of a "Town Read": Someone I will DEFEND all the way and will probably SR those who push 'em.

My definition of a "Town Lean": Someone I wouldn't be voting myself, but I understand if someone else wants them lynched and won't fight it back tooth and nail because I don't have a good argument aside from my own feelings about the slot.

And while at it..

Scum Lean: someone I suspect but don't really have a case, so I'm willing to join their wagon if someone else has a case

Scum Read: I am convinced this is scum and won't be listening to anyone else's opinion on he matter

[Almost50]

The evidence bit doesn't have anything to do with anything, right?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Like "I have a Town READ on N_M" .. "Why?" .. "Because I

feel

his play is Town" .. "Awrright! I agree then!" (????)

My definition of a "Town Read": Someone I will DEFEND all the way and will probably SR those who push 'em.

My definition of a "Town Lean": Someone I wouldn't be voting myself, but I understand if someone else wants them lynched and won't fight it back tooth and nail because I don't have a good argument aside from my own feelings about the slot.

And while at it..

Scum Lean: someone I suspect but don't really have a case, so I'm willing to join their wagon if someone else has a case

Scum Read: I am convinced this is scum and won't be listening to anyone else's opinion on he matter

Have you ever explained this read methodology in any other game?

No one ever asked the way you do, so NO.

[Almost50]

Imo I think he's exhibiting incredibly similar behavior to that game and so I don't really get why you think his tunnel on wilky here differs from his tunnel on yankee/sky there.

Check again, and you might see a slight difference. Also check the other game I played with him between that game and this one (He was the Town Doctor, and I mislynched him bc .. oh, well.. go read D2 yourself. It's a very short read.)

[Almost50]

He ONLY popped out to say "yankee is scum" over and over again when he was scum. when he is town he still tunnels but adds "other reads". For example; here he has Montosh as a 2nd SR, and in that game he was tunneling Dino but also had Jay in his view, and later had Vax too. (He was correct about both Dino and Jay not being Town).

The only thing that may look suspicious here is him calling on the WWs to shoot Thor, which "could" be interpreted as him knowing Thor isn't a WW himself (i.e. N_M is a WW) OR N_M is Mafia and knows Thor not to be on the team. However, I', well used to N_M being his weird, so I -at least- want to keep him around for a couple of days before I reevaluate based on flips and associative tells.

[Almost50]

Also, I hardclaim Citizen rn. I'm a fucking citizen once again, and literally out of half the rolelist being non-citizen roles, I get citizen again. I really don't care if I'm ML'd d1, happens all the time, and idgaf tbh.

If you're this salty about being a VT, why not play role madness?

If she hates it so bad; she'd probably roll the ONLY pure VT in the setup.

[Almost50]

@wilky/Montosh: A soul read is when you get a string feeling about someone's alignment/role w.o. there being anything to support it. It's more or less a gut feeling, only a gut read would be based on the tone of the post or why it was posted in a certain phrasing. Soul reads are independent of that and I could peg you for scum on one occasion and town on another for doing/saying the exact same thing under similar circumstances.

[Almost50]

Laser Guy is probably scum

List all your suspects, please. Preferably in the order you would rather lynch.

Personally, I'm not happy with everyone who deserted the Korina wagon for one reason or another. I thought we had a good wagon there, both by reason and by composition. None of the justifications given to switch the votes off Korina looks better than the initial reason for voting him in the first place.

Oh, and that rage is almost enough reason for me to turn it into a PL, but I was already SRing the slot anyway, so I'm not moving.

@skitter: Get off Thor. I know Thor's a very good scumster, but I also have played scum!Thor as both his partner and as a member of the counter scum team, and I'm not feeling scum!Thor here at all.

Also you say you'd be willing to lynch "my slot", and I would appreciate it if you explained if you SR >MY< play, SR'd the slot solely on BuJaber's play, or both. Basically, am >I< scummy to you still?

[Almost50]

VOTE: Thor

Excuse me!!!!! Thor wasn't even in you 5-players lynch pool. What gives???

[Almost50]

Do you have issues with people scumreading your slots in general?

If they had good reasoning, or even acceptable reasoning then NOT AT ALL.

However, being pushed by silly arguments and/or false assumptions and misreps I usually DO have a problem.

[Almost50]

Ok, what changed from your outside scumreading on your slot to move all your leans to nulls?

I discovered my slot was town. Duh! It doesn't make anyone SCUMMY for having voted BuJaber, but it makes it likely that there was scum on my wagon and I can't decide which one yet.

[Almost50]

Why do you ALWAYS torment me with your .. erm.. not getting what I say EXPLICITLY.

If my slot was SCUM, then it would be likely that my wagon was formed by 4 TOWN players, since AT LEAST ONE SCUM TEAM would not have been on me (the team I belonged to).

Now I DIDN'T KNOW BUJABER'S ALIGNMENT (That's MY alignment) at the time, so I was SRing the slot, and consequently Town LEANING those who voted it (not an explicit TR bc the opposing scum team could have still voted the slot, but it significantly reduced the probability of there being a scumster on the wagon still because either 25% or 50% of the remaining scums were not on the wagon).

If BuJaber had got lynched and flipped I would have looked back more closely on the wagon all the same, and now that I KNOW the slot is TOWN, it's the same thing (as if it was lynched and flipped) and hence I AM reevaluating.

4 votes on Mafia would come from a pool of 7 T + 2 WW
4 votes on WW would come from a pool of 7 T + 3 Maf
4 votes on Town would come from a pool of 6 T + 3 Maf + 2 WW

DO THE MATH.

[Almost50]

Early on D1 scum are less likely to pile on any wagon at all. Both scum factions would be afraid of pushing one of the other faction, and especially so the Mafia (since only the WWs have a kill). If BuJaber was a WW it WOULD have been likely all 4 on the wagon were Town bc Mafia would wait to join in late (more likely in the 4th/5th/6th slot) and also late in the sense of "closer to deadline", so they don't appear like they're pushing it.

If BuJaber was Mafia then it's more likely a WW was on the 4-palyers wagon, but only one.

Since Scum didn't know either, then I would say Mafia are less likely to have been on the wagon still, while it is more likely to have had a WW on it.

THE BLOODY QUESTION IS WHICH ONE? And I don't know the answer to that, so everybody is null until further notice.

Now you may continue to converse with yourself here, cuz I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to a friggin' brick wall, just like it was in our previous game (and THANK GOD you're not a Vig in here and I'm not a BG, or you would have shot exactly the one townie I decided to protect who ALSO was the Mafia target, resulting in my kill, raising suspicion on them, helping the fake claimed RB shade another Townie, and outing yourself on the very next day, resulting in a total of 4 town deaths).

Mate, I would be hard SRing you now if I didn't see your play in that game first hand. You REALLY need to stop tunneling and start reading and evaluating stuff. Like, if you're scum here you're a likely NK (if you're Mafia), likely investigation target (if you're a WW), and if you're Town you're a detriment to Town regardless because you're likely to BOTH draw the NK AND the investigation, let alone the (mis)lynch if you're still alive in 2 days.

Sorry to bring back the memory of that game, but really .. you need to chill.

[Almost50]

Tbh this feels more like something you feel like you have to say rather than something you actually believe. Like the bolded feels posture-y and fake.

Right! So how would you go about it given the hypothetical situation you subbed into a game where your slot was heavily SR'd only to discover it's actually a town slot? More to it, how would YOU respond to that question if you were in my feet?? Teach me, please.

[Almost50]

tbh I'd ignore it and not be honest about my reads from before replacing in.

So, you're saying being honest makes me look scummy? If that's what you're saying then I really have nothing more to say.

@Skitter: So, you don't know how to do any other way, but it's still fake to you! And what capitalization? You bolded a certain/specific phrase that had no capitalization. Now you're going to tell me that's not what you were taking about??

What if I told you you response in 413 actually feels excessively fake to me? Because it does. You prematurely launched an attack that you didn't actually plan carefully, and received an unexpected response that put you is a disadvantage so you're fumbling for what to say and grasping at straws.

I hope you enjoy my fake and artificial vote:

VOTE: Skitter

[Almost50]

denotes a strong survivalistic mentality

Would you kindly point me to what exactly gave you the impression I was being survivalistic? Because the way I see it I haven't even bothered to respond to accusations made towards my slot before I replaced in.

But let me

hypothetically

assume that I somehow was being survivalistic. So? You think a Townie should lie down and die? Ok, let's take the hypothesis one step higher? Did it ever occur to you that I might be the Seer? Do you feel the Seer (being the only TPR we have in this setup) would go "Oh, well.. shucks.. I can eat rope on D1 if that's what they want"?

So, while I do not see how I was survivalistic in the first place, I also do not see how trying to survive earns me a scum read.

You're starting to sound like Skitter here.. he wanted me to say "I didn't do it" when all he said was "this sounds fake", and I can't for the life of me understand how a simple Bart Simpson phrase like "I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything." would have looked better than asking him to show me how he could have handled the situation differently.

You're both arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, and while I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because I saw that town!you can actually be like this, Skitter (in that same game) had much better reads and better arguments.

[Almost50]

I'm saying that there is no reason to reference it to distance yourself unless you have a need to survive.

So what "fake" reasoning should I have given for my reads? And I say "fake" because you obviously don't/didn't want me to tell the truth. Or do you think I should have also faked my read list??

[Almost50]

@Espeonage: I explained it in numbers and percentages already. I explained why it's more likely to have scum on town than it is to have scum on scum. If you don't see it still then that is your problem I guess. *Shrug*

[Almost50]

And that's the ahmished tell

What is? What post??

Also, @everybody: THIS is the game I'm referring to in my conversations. It should make a good read for you all, since it included me, Esp, Skitter, Montosh and N_M all in the same game. Montosh & N_M were Scum there, while I, Esp & Skitter were Town.

My main request is that you all go ISO Skitter and compare his arguments to those he is using here and see if there's a significant difference. I won't even say "reads" because we don't have any flips here yet.

You can also compare N_M's play in that game to this one and see if you agree/disagree with me, and while at it also ISO Esp and compare to his play here. ISOing me and Montosh is an optional bonus if you like, but it's Skitter that I do want you all to look at first. Any takers?

[Almost50]

Well then, I think we need to agree to disagree here. I don't see the

need

for me to eat rope just yet, and I think I'm better off eating a bullet for the town (I'm usually a hard lynch, but I've been quite popular as the N1 NK of late, and I'd like to keep it that way). Like, the day I'll accept being the D1 lynch is the day I (a) roll Jester, or (b) see a TPR or more inadvertently outing themselves that ending the day early looks like the town's best option.

[Almost50]

@Esp: Btw, have you tried to remind yourself of Skitter's town play and compare it to this game, or do you intend to spend the while day arguing with me and only me?

[Almost50]

@Skitter: Well, you never objected to THAT in Stack The Deck, and I'll give you ONE EXAMPLE of you interacting with me DIRECTLY in response to a POST where I used THIS SAME POSTING STYLE.

Spoiler:

Yes, he was active and logged in and posted elsewhere between the time he was prodded and the time he was replaced. Like feel free to check this for yourself if you don't believe me.

GDI. How many times do I have to point out THIS IS TOTALLY NAI for Creature. I already explained (perhaps I didn't here???) that Creature was in a game I modded. He was a N1 Cop. He didn't submit an action. I prodded him a good 2 hours before deadline. HE PICKED THE PM AND STILL DIDN'T SUBMIT AN ACTION. I opened the thread, and there he was POSTING IN THREAD.

Tl;dr: TPR .. ONE SHOT .. SPECIFIC NIGHT .. ONLINE .. TOTALLY AWARE .. NO ACTION.

Now this certainly NOT a defense of Creature/Jay. This is telling you FACTS. If Jay doesn't Town it up, we lynch him or Vig him. But the fact Creature is ignoring this game is totally NAI (like you could ask him post-game and he will just say "I forgot about this game" or something along these lines).

GDI. How many times do I have to point out THIS IS TOTALLY NAI for Creature

My point in posting that is that multiple people were asserting he was sitewide inactive between the time he got prodded and the time he got replaced, which isn't true.

I don't really have much else to say right now other than that I don't like the screen wagon and I don't get why he's being policied instead of basing a lynch on alignment.

And even if you don't like his posting style, it's not like he's being toxic or anything like that so I don't really get why he's being policied at all tbh.

Like why are we spending a lynch on this instead of telling a potential vig to shoot him if you're that concerned about him getting to LYLO?

[Almost50]

You were also a claimed PR from like page 2 that game.

There was a time I was going to shoot you night 1.

Thank you for proving my point that you're utterly bad even if you're town. I really appreciate it.

[Almost50]

@Esp: Try it. I dare you.

@Skitter: Same to you, my friend. Fake/awkward/void/defensive (did I miss anything?). Oh, yes I did.. and your vote is not only bad .. it SUCKS << serves to use the "shouting" once more.

Let's try something new. How about you call me.. erm.. an old fart? Would that make you feel better? How about MEAN. Yeah.. mean old fart. And I smell too. There you go.

[Almost50]

a) why would I do that? b) how is that like relevant to anything?

Because THEN I'd understand and can relate. And it's not an insult at all. I

am

almost 50 y.o., so I actually am an old fart (and a bald one too). I am occasionally mean in the sense that I lose my temper and become overly sarcastic at times. I probably smell too cuz I'm a heavy smoker.

Now any (or all) of these make sense and I can understand being called, but I can neither understand nor respond to "feels fake and void" or "your vote sucks" (especially coming from the target of my vote). Was I expected to send you some candy heart chocolate along with my vote? Was I supposed to be civil and ask for your permission to vote you? And am I supposed to introduce some sort of authentication certificate to prove what I say is genuine and not fake?

Anyway, I'm cool with you SRing me and me SRing you. Maybe we'll draw the same alignment in the next game we play together and we'll be getting along just fine. It's just the way the game is.

[Almost50]

I'm calling your entire manner 'fake' because it feels like you're overly concerned with getting across the idea about how *surprised* you were that you rolled town. Like you're going through the motions because you think it's something you have to say as opposed to something you believe. IE I'm basically saying you don't believe it cuz you know you're not in fact town.

OK. Cool. Let's find out. *Sigh*

[Almost50]

Btw, when I flip green, would you buy that I really did believe I was genuine and not faking? Or would you still think I was faking the shock??

[Almost50]

Am I looking into this too much or is the bolded part a slip? Seems to me like Almost already knows for sure that skitter doesn't have the same alignment as him.

I don't know about you, but I assume someone I'm SCUMREADING isn't the same alignment of me. If I thought they were I wouldn't be STing them, would I??

[Almost50]

How does this make sense? If he is Mafia, why would Werewolf kill him if his slot looks scummy?

OK. Why wouldn't they? WWs want to get rid of the

informed

other faction too. The more the Mafia lives and the townies die the more influential the Mafia "bloc" votes become. The more the Mafia votes become influential the harder it is for Wolves to push their agenda, and the harder it becomes to actually lynch Mafia.

It's a matter of "balancing" the powers for the WWs. Their only danger from Town is the Seer. Once that is gone no other townie really matters. Mafia know each other and will protect each other from the lynch and -probably- hunt for the Wolves too. Got it?

[Almost50]

I think the only way your logic here and in 409 makes any sense at all is if you believe that WW can tell the difference between Mafia/Town or Mafia can tell the difference between WW/Town. I suspect that this is probably not true at this stage of the game. But I don't know that I believe you would be making this assumption if you were scum.

Wait! You lost me somewhere. I'm saying he's overly scummy that the only reason I'm not all over him right now is because I know he could be this like town, and you tell me they can't tell the difference? Well, unless a member of the WWs has actually played Esp before I'd say they already suspect him to be a Mafioso, and probably suspect me to be his partner for this very reason. Obviously that's all just hot air if he is a WW himself, so him surviving for say 2 nights would force me to revisit him (if I'm still alive myself).

[Almost50]

@Pepper: I liked your argument in 486 very much before I got to read the subsequent posts, so let me ask you this:

You said:

if anyone tells you to get off a wagon because "we will never get a lynch if we're split 5 ways", you're probably voting scum.

So, how come you're saying Skitter is town when I & Thor were 2 of the 4 Laser plead to??

And how come you're still pushing Wilky when -by your own logic- there's a greater chance of there being at least one scum in Skitter/Thor (and by the way you've been going it's obvious you believe Thor to be that scum)??

This now makes me think you are probably scum WITH Skitter trying to scare us (myself and Thor) off that wagon. It would be quite ballsy if you were scum with Thor and doing this for distancing purposes because if someone does listen to you it could end up in Thor's lynch (not to mention I hard TR Thor by now).

Suffice it to say of I'm to move my vote off Skitter it would probably be to lynch you. If you -by some odd chance- flip Town I promise to forfeit my own read and sheep your on Skitter. I may even reconsider my read on Thor in that case.

Hey Montosh and Korina, I know you're both town, come lynch wilky with me and NM and then after he flips scum we can hit Thor okay? ;*

-Pepper

GDI, this even more fishier! You're calling for the two on the Thor wagon (whom you already SR) to switch off to a wagon that is -by your own logic- less likely to flip Scum bc nobody had called on you/N_M to quit it and vote elsewhere!

This move (if isolated on it's own) would make it 50-50 on my mind that Thor IS your Scum p and you are just trying to distance in a really bad way. Of course this still means it's 50-50 that Skitter is your p of the two. In sum, one of Thor/Skitter is scum with you.

However, Thor immediately switching his vote to Fanta in 507 support my read that Thor is TOWN and Fanta is trying to save Skitter.

VOTE: Dr Fanta

I think wilky and Fanta are probably both scum but Fanta's wagon composition is horrible

Why should that stop you from lynching SCUM!Fanta anyway? It's Multi-Ball, you know. Scum will also be voting Scum from the opposing team, and Town will want to lynch Scum regardless.

You've never misread me before. What's the matter?

-Pepper

Thanks for the confirmation. Not even N_M himself claimed he was good at pegging you, but you confirmed he is.

-------------
Fanta voting Thor at this point is a foregone conclusion, but doing it after N_M had said Thor was probably town is one more nail in Fanta's coffin.

Hey you want to start actually scumhunting or being useful to town or are you just going to be salty that people want to lynch you for being scum?

What??

1- N_M said Thor was likely TOWN for starters
2- You're calling Thor Scum, and you're asking him to be "useful to town"??

[Almost50]

OK.. Mafia team is likely Fanta/Skitter/Korina. WWs are probably wilky/Laser. Game solved.

[Almost50]

Paradox is a weird one there's not really anyone it implicates or points in a direction too.

Which os probably why he got shot, perhaps?

This is wolf

For once, please try to explain. What exactly is "wolfy" about it? (And you do mean "wolf" not "scum". Right? I mean, I know you are better than this, but the newcomers from other sites use the term "wolf" to refer to scum even in pure "mafia" games).

[Almost50]

*Sigh*

I'm of two minds. The first is N_M's reads are very much worth sheeping when he is Town. The second is, what if I'm wrong about him being Town?

OK, one more Q (and I apologize for being a pain): Let's say wilky is indeed a WW. What makes you think he has a say in who the WWs shoot? I mean, he's hardly going to the leader in about most any WWs pairing we imagine him to be in.

[Almost50]

Well, I'm not gonna argue much more. I had wilky pegged for a WW by the end of D1 anyway. I just can't get over my paranoia of having missed something obvious.

VOTE: wilky

[Almost50]

Suffice it to say of I'm to move my vote off Skitter it would probably be to lynch you. If you -by some odd chance- flip Town I promise to forfeit my own read and sheep your on Skitter. I may even reconsider my read on Thor in that case.

Much townreads, much reevaluation of Thor, much thanks.

I'm pretty sure that both Thor and A50 were trying to tie me to a scum!Fanta flip yesterday. (scum in a generic sense, not in a specifically mafia sense)

VOTE: A50

Cuz he already has a vote on him.

Damned if I understood what you want to say!

I said if they flipped Town I'd sheep their read on you, and that's what I did. Now what's your problem again?

[Almost50]

-> I wanted you to say you townread me. I don't really think that your read on me is sincere in any case, nor do I think that Fanta is qualified to meta me, but if it means you'll stop making bad pushes/votes on me, I"ll take it.

I don't "Town read" you. I'm sheeping a flipped Townie's read who claimed they can read you better. Now that you're telling me they're not qualified to meta you I take it back.

-> I want you to reevaluate Thor as well

I'll do that once everybody has weighed in for D2

-> I'm pretty sure that you and Thor were trying to tie to me to a scum!Fanta flip. IE if Fanta flipped scum, you were both setting the stage to go after me next as a partner.

First: This assumes I'm scum with Thor.

Second: Even if we were, we would have had a 7 in 10 or 7 in 9 chance Fanta was flipping TOWN (depending on whether you think we're WWs or Mafia), so "tying you to Fanta" seems ridiculous for Scum to do.

Third: It's evident you're a harder lynch today than you were yesterday, and if I were you I'd make use of that and do my very best to lynch actual real scum. I mean, even if you are scum you still need to lynch someone from the opposing faction, and if you're town we're better off lynching scum today or we lose control on the lynch for good.

Fourth: It seems to me you have an ego problem. If I was scum I wouldn't even bother getting rid of you in early game to be honest. There are more dangerous players in this game who also can read me better than you can.

-> I think your slot is scummy, both with Thor and also independently, and I want both of you lynched. Right now there's a vote on you so I voted you over him.

I'll send you my regards from behind the grave when you finally manage to lynch me. I won't be nearly as nice though. I already have to deal with one moron who is SRing me from the previous game still, and I really am close to exploding in a real rampage. Don't let the act fool you. I'm not as calm as I'm trying to sound here.

In sum: If you're Town.. buzz off. If you're Scum.. still BUZZ OFF!

[Almost50]

FTR, the reason I'm being extra self-restraint is I saw 2 good players getting themselves banned for being too emotional. I do not wish to be banned, so I'm playing it extra safe. I keep reminding myself it's only a game, and that being stupid is a privilege, although some abuse it to the max.

[Almost50]

I'm not scumreading you from the previous game?

I wasn't referring to you with that!

ESPEONAGE is the one who is SRing me from the previous game and is carrying it on into this one, and I neither was scum back then nor am I scum in here, but he still doesn't realize it's a play style thing.

Yeah, but you were trying to lynch them so you thought you were flipping scum. The fact that they in fact flipped town doesn't change the fact that you thought they were flipping scum before the flip happened.

Unless you're saying you thought they were going to flip town yesterday?

Again, you're confused and getting me confused.

1- If I'm Scum, I would have expected Fanta to flip Town more than I would have expected him to be Scum (the 7 in 9/10 thing)

2- Since I'm Town I was expecting him to flip Scum (it was 5 in 12 for me if I disregarded anything else, but with a few TRs excluded it was more like 5 in 8. which is by far better odds that what Scum would have had pushing the slot).

3- Now here's the trick: If I was Scum; the from (1) you know I wasn't trying to line you up for the next lynch because I would have expected Fanta to flip Town, but since I'm Town I was only going to lynch you if Fanta did flip Scum because I figured you would be their p, and since they flipped Town I concede that I was wrong in linking you to them and I have to work with the newly gained info.

Where you got it messed up is assuming Scum!me (who is assumed to be scum with Thor) were pushing on a SCUM lynch. If that was the case (me & Thor are scum) then it figures we were pushing for a TOWN lynch, because he Town is the bigger faction at the start of the game. But then that would mean I already knew (or very much expected) Fanta to flip TOWN, and linking you to them the way I did would have extremely dumb, because it would make you a MUCH HARDER lynch today, whereas as Scum my goal would be to make it EASIER to get you lynched.

Now why would I want you lynched if I were Scum? Simple. I already had a SR on you so it would've been easy to keep that independent from the Fanta flip. It would have been much easier for me than to be required to reevaluate on everything based on one flip (the TGP flip doesn't count bc I had a Town lean there anyway).

Town!me though doesn't want to lynch you for the sake of lynching you. I only wanted to lynch you because I thought you were scum with Fanta (and my scum hunting usually does include calling out the entire scum team on D1 and working off that).

Also, I apologize myself on the mini-outburst directed your way. It actually has nothing to do with you in person, but more to do with the globally floating idea all over MS that A50 is good at being scum "so he must've rolled scum here". EVERY SINGLE GAME I play of late I get SR'd by most of the players. It used to be only those who played me for the first time (my play style somehow alarms them), but it's now catching up to those who have played with me before as well for the reason fore-mentioned. I very much play my Town games to either survive or get NK'd. I don't like to be mislynched because then I would have failed to fulfil my duty, which is to eat a bullet for the Town (and in this game in particular where we are severely deprived of night powers).

[Almost50]

Fancy explaining how you had me pegged as ww? And if you had me pegged as ww why would you hop onto the wagon I started?

I did because I did, and it's documented in my D1 posts (towards the end), so please go do some reading.

As for why I joined the wagon on Fanta, it's because I thought they were Mafia, and didn't care whether we lynch Mafia or WW. We are required to eliminate both factions, so I'll gladly take a lynch on ant scum there is.

[Almost50]

So that's how easy it is to change your reads just tell you that you or the person who said it aren't qualified?

And this is why you are scum (among other things). OF COURSE if I'm "sheeping" someone on a TOWN READ of theirs that is BASED ON META, and the subject of that TR declares them unqualified to meta them then I will drop the TR. I would have liked your exclamation MUCH BETTER if I had actually kept the TR intact and to came to ask why if Skitter herself said Fanta were unqualified to meta her. THAT would have made sense.

[Almost50]

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

STOP POSTURING! If Skitter says they're unqualified they are UNqualified. Why would Skitter play down a TOWN READ on her? And -more importantly- what IS the point of your argument in this post, or even the previous one or the one preceding? What new material are you bringing into the game? Why shouldn't I be voting you? Who should I be voting instead? Why?? That's the kind of thing Town!You would be bringing, but Scum!You seems incapable of.

[Almost50]

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

STOP POSTURING! If Skitter says they're unqualified they are UNqualified. Why would Skitter play down a TOWN READ on her? And -more importantly- what IS the point of your argument in this post, or even the previous one or the one preceding? What new material are you bringing into the game? Why shouldn't I be voting you? Who should I be voting instead? Why?? That's the kind of thing Town!You would be bringing, but Scum!You seems incapable of.

The point of the posts are so that I can sort you better... So will you provide reasons on why I am specifically a werewolf??

Until then
VOTE: A50

You mean you're voting me BEFORE you sort me? And you have yet to sort me when we have had a WHOLE GAME DAY to do so?

[Almost50]

@Korina: Are you serious? Have you read the setup??

[Almost50]

@skitter: Do you think I'm a WW or Mafia?? Because..

- If I'm a WW I DO NOT CARE whether we lynch Town or Mafia. For the WWs the Mafia are just 3 other Townies (or rather 3 other VTs) because the Mafia has no NK.

- If I'm a Mafioso the pushing a WW on D1 gets me shot at night. The Mafia do not want to antagonise/provocate the WW at early game.

So, if I'm Scum (as either alignment) I would have been expecting a TOWN flip from Fanta, and thus NOT lining up a lynch on you.

Town!Me though

would

be lining up your lynch if Fanta flipped Scum 10 times out of 10.

Q: Have you ever rolled Scum in multi-ball before? If so how did the game go? I ask because it's now looking like you have no idea how to play scum in a game with multiple scum factions. Either that or you do and you genuinely believe I'm town here and still pushing me because you're scum playing it safe 9and I can't decide between the two options to be honest).

As for not wanting to lynch you, there's this thing called reevaluation. I did a full read on D1 and concluded your were Mafia with X & Y. X got lynched and flipped Town, so I was wrong on the team. I could still be right on one (or even both) of the remaining candidates, but then I have not much faith in those reads anymore. I'd rather lynch a WW today and hope we can catch the other one tomorrow (by association or with a Seer guilty), which will turn this into a nightless game. If the WWs are gone we have no use for the Seer checks anymore and nobody else has night actions, so the game goes on immediately after a flip AND (and this is the best part) lynching is the only way someone dies, so that would be good for town (but probably also for Mafia, which is why I wanted to lynch a Mafioso on D1, get the WWs to shoot another Mafioso based on associative tells, which would have pit us at 7v2v1 today)

[Almost50]

I also find amazing that we keep on taking bouts at each other and nobody ever cares to intervene. The most that people have done is pop on, place a vote and take a nose dive into oblivion. It looks like both Scum factions are happy with the status quo and want it to go on and on and on. Did you ever consider that possibility??

[Almost50]

@Korina: Are you serious? Have you read the setup??

Are you serious? Do you understand what a joke is?

Are you serious? Do you understand making the same joke twice is lame?

[Almost50]

maybe you should do some scumhunting rather than just tunnelling skitter.

I'm not tunneling her!! I'm not even voting her, and I was content with sheeping the TR on her from Fanta until she nullified it!

And how do you scum hunt when nobody's talking? Like, where the hell is LG??

VOTE: LaserGuy

This is now the most suspicious slot from being too quiet and floating under everyone's radar.

[Almost50]

I'd like Dr. Fanta and Korina's opinions on who I should think is the most probable scum and why though.

Well just Dr.Fanta. I replaced korina lol.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Almost50]

Check post #0

[Almost50]

wilky or TChill today

Agreed. (and it worries me much to find myself agreeing with someone all that much, tbh).

[Almost50]

And he finally gets it!

[Almost50]

1st: Tchill liked the Amished tell for a scum hunting tool, yet is continuing to use it. (1 scum point awarded. but not yet enough to justify a vote)

[Almost50]

VOTE: Beefster

I've played with him before in THIS game, and he was a WW.

Spoiler: This is his ISO from that game

VOTE: dave
For suggesting a vote based on activity

UNVOTE: davesaz
Gut town read on dave.

VOTE: Kotoko Utsugi
Because I feel like it.

Right now..if I were to choose a scum team from this list, I would proably take a50 and dave...they are both active, townread...trying to game solve (which could be faked within their playstyle), would have no prob bussing me (an expendable scum member) to stay strong...and are currently pretty widely townread.

For those asking about how I play scum... (WARNING: SELF_META....I AM TRYING YO BE HONEST) I haven't had a recent scum game..However as town, I am known for posting without thinking...I know that once, I have voted the previous days lynch (I corrected it in the next post but still)....As thoughts come, they get written down.

For scum, I haven't played in a while, but when I came back to this site, I bought a whiteboard to draft out ideas as scum....my posts will probably be more thought out.

I do this because I think it is the most valuable way to post for the different factions...For town, my posts may seem scummy, I may defend someone very hard, but it will always be because I believe it and I think that is what town needs.

As scum, I will put more thought because I need to hide, and that's just the way it will be.

This and #84 look a little bit off to me. I don't really follow the logic.

Meta defense (when there's nothing to defend) is strange. It's almost like he's trying to WIFOM with the gambler's fallacy.

VOTE: momo
Serious vote.

Honestly I'd be pretty cool with speedlynching in this setup. I have a strong suspicion that the longer the day goes on, the more scumsided it'll eventually get. Masons and monks are gonna get pretty obvious over time. Plus, ideal strategy is for mafia and wolves to shoot town (and not destroy each other). I'd rather not give them more time to figure out the entire setup.

So yeah let's speedlynch Beefster.

I don't follow this line of reasoning. The scumteams already have a pretty low chance of killing the other scum if done completely randomly. I don't really see how a short day makes things any different.

The way to win is to get 4 correct lynches in a row. Short days do not help achieve that.

VOTE: Mathdino
OMGUS, but I don't care.

I am thinking more clearly now. probably.

VOTE: momo
I think he's playing dumb on #100 and #127. wtf on #270. demands jay put their vote on me on #276
That's all for now.

fos: A50 for misrepresenting Archwing.
fos: JaydragonKing for being self-conscious about perceived alignment and voting/omgusing everybody like a force of chaos.

I'm fighting a losing battle here and I won't give you the pleasure of a longer day.

VOTE: Beefster

AWOOOOOO!!!
Go Werewolves!

Excluding the last vote (the self-hammer) he had voted 5 times on 4 different players, and none of them was his partner (Jaydragonking)

Spoiler: This is his D1 here:

VOTE: Beefster

It's a good policy lynch, and, hey, maybe a wolf or scum to boot.

Do I sense rage?

It's wellfounded tbh. My play over the last while has been lazy and aggravating.

VOTE: Espeonage
because I prefer Umbreon.

Looks like scum is already starting to come out of the woodworks. skitter, Korina, and Montosh are all pinging me.

VOTE: Korina

Paradox and wilky are town, I think. Very protown discussion coming from each. I'm more confident with wilky, but it's mostly gut at this point, so we'll see what happens.

It is opportunistic... because NM always plays like this?

What kind of answer is that? And why are you even answering for wilky?

I agree NM is null (though I'm still convinced there's a good chance of finding scum among the lurkers - even if people disagree) but how wilky jumped to that conclusion is beyond me. 2 votes is barely a wagon, and there were other choices with 2 votes too. NM can't possibly know that wilky would be the lynch today it's far too early.

I'm not answering for wilky. Where'd you get that idea? I can't really tell if the vote is opportunistic. And even if it is, I don't think it's AI in this situation.

You ask a lot of questions and I think Espeonage is onto something here.

VOTE: BuJaber

Now that's an opportunistic vote. Interpret it as you so desire.

Korina: oh come on. You've got a megapost (admittedly, I haven't really read it) and you've put most of us at null?

Seems like you're just spinning your wheels, but you clearly aren't going anywhere.

VOTE: Korina

It's real. At this point, I have played around 14 games. Excluding 4 of them, because one of them I replaced into confirmed scum slot, the other was a pure Jester game, the third one was late game, and VT wasn't a possibility that late in, and the last one because it was canned, I have rolled Citizen in over half of them. Probability would beg to differ at this point, that I would get a non-town role. I still haven't and that pisses me off to no end, because I want to finally play as fucking scum. 11H on ToS forums was the closest I've ever gotten to playing a legit scum game, and even if I played scum well that game, I highly doubt I would've won it. So, let's break down the rest of those games then: that leaves 10 games. 1 of them, I got BG. 1 of them, I got Arso (11H), 1 of them, I got vig, but because of someone else in thread, I got force-replaced. That leaves 7 games, this one included. I have played VT in 70% of all my fm games. You don't think I get sick and fucking tired of it, or at this point probability would be in my favor on a literal coin flip? I may be following the gambler's fallacy here, but I honestly think that probability would go my way at this point.

*Sigh*, I kind of believe this, at least enough not to want to lynch Korina right now. He's such lynchbait it's going to be a very low information flip regardless of his alignment.

I mean, he could be faking it, but without additional evidence, I think you're right about lynchbait.

Well then...

VOTE: Espeonage

He has a certain quality of lurkiness that I find suspicious. Also seems to be preoccupied with this being multiball IIRC.

Right, so i've just iso'd Laserguy and his iso does not read as active lurker at all so for now

VOTE: Dr Fanta

I agree. I'll sheep this.

VOTE: Dr Fanta

Again, 6 votes on 4 different people (Vote on Fanta replaces the self-hammer)

Spoiler: And this is hid D2 so far

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Also, I realized that kill associations would imply wolf in this game, so it's not necessarily scummy to faction-hunt in this particular case.

I will agree that wilky's opening comment is fishy. Fishy enough to vote? For now.

VOTE: wilky

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Eh... Too much skitter v Thor to sort out... At this point, I think they're both scum.

Oh man, Skitter set me up in an argument where people would have to choose sides!

Skitter is, once again, creating a case based around calling scumhunting scummy. Even in the theory world where A50 and I are scum - she's accusing us of thinking;

That Fanta was scum.

VOTE: Skitter

Thor has this tunnel thing going and is pretty much just going after low-hanging fruit aside from that.

VOTE: Thor

4 votes on 3 people already, NONE OF WHICH were voted by him yesterday.

Conclusion: Beefster is SCUM. His partner(s) is/are in Montosh/skitter30/LaserGuy

[Almost50]

I've played Montosh in THIS game. He was Scum with Jay & N_M, and he never once voted either. Seeing as he voted Beefster on D1 and is currently on him I'd say Montosh isn't Beefster's partner.

[Almost50]

I have only played skitter once (same game where Montosh was Scum). She was Town though, so I can't say I know how her Scum pay goes.

I believe this to be my first game with LG, so nothing to reference there.

[Almost50]

Since no one is particularly scumreading Beefster...okay?

I don't get it. I'm making a case on him and declaring a Scum read there myself.

[Almost50]

@Thor: Well, are you up for a wagon on Beef or what? You're sitting alone on Skitter and I was alone on LG, so let's make Beefster a competing wagon and see what happens. Shall we?

[Almost50]

@Tchill: What do you think of my case on Beefster?

[Almost50]

Benefits in lynching Beef:

1- If he flips WW; Seer checks one of Skitter/LG and if guilty we eliminate the WWs. If not we lynch the other and I'd say that elomonayes the WWs as well.

2- If he flips Mafia then BOTH Skitter/GL are his partners, so that's the Mafia eliminated AND the Seer checks outside those two.

3- If he flips Town (unlikely), well I get to take the blame and eat rope next, but that means if the WWs don't NK the Seer tonoght they won't be pushed to claim tomorrow and we may still have a winning chance after we lose the majority (well, technically we already did, but the Mafia will really need to lynch a WW next or they will lose with us).

[Almost50]

VOTE: A50
I'll sheep this. His slot was suspect before anyway.

How bloody OMGUSy this vote is!

You've had all the time in the world to revisit my case on D2, but you never did. You kept jumping from one vote to another to see what sticks. Only when I voted you for the very first time in the whole game did you remember I was "suspect before anyway"???

Guys, if Town wants to have a chance, vote Beefster. I'll repeat: IF THE TOWN IS TO HAVE ANY CHANCE OF WINNING THIS; VOTE BEEFSTER. Otherwise I GUARANTEE the Town will lose to either Scum faction (or possibly a combined victory for them both).

[Almost50]

We are already bloody 5 T vs 5 S already. NO LYNCH IS GOING THROUGH WITHOUT SCUM'S HELP. We need at least one Scum to vote WITH TOWN to get a lynch through, and in my case there will have to be TWO because I'm not voting myself, and that's assuming all other 4 Town players will be voting me.

So get you heads out of your behinds and SCUM HUNT. It needs only one bloody Townie voting another townie for Scum (combined) to get a mislynch, and the only reason they won't all vote at the same time is they don't want to out themselves to each other.

Also a word for/about the scum:

Mafia MUST try to lynch a WW today. If they lynch a Townie and the WWs kill the Seer it will be an uphill for them to win the game.
WWs MUST try to lynch Mafia today, because they need to be shooting the SEER at night (means they'll avoid shooting slots suspected to be Mafia), which keeps the Mafia in control of the day lynch.

IF I had a say I would have suggested NO LYNCH was the best option for Town (and we can force it if we all wanted and agreed to it). But that only works if the WWs manage to shoot a Mafioso tonight. Otherwise, we're still in a shitty situation. (Also, seeing as I look like the designated lynch it won't even be a popular idea coming from me anyway).

So, LET'S LYNCH SCUM today PLEASE. Thank you and goodnight.

[Almost50]

Wow, wasn't really expecting mafia!montosh or mafia!espeonage. You both played super well

Thanks mutant!

THAT is why I was having even more fun in the dead threat than the game itself.