Open 838 – ISITMAINAC [Endgame]

[Jacket]

Hey.

[Jacket]

Skimmed the game. I have a handful of weak-ish townreads and exactly one scumread.

VOTE: RH9

[Jacket]

The generalized gamestate take is in a game as sluggish as this one there's probably a handful of scum in the low-content slots but sorting them is impossible unless they actually start contributing it's more or less a crapshoot. There are situations where it can be active scum while town is apathetic and lurks it out, but it feels like there's a little too much discord between the active players for that to be the case.

[Jacket]

The generalized gamestate take is in a game as sluggish as this one there's probably a handful of scum in the low-content slots but sorting them is impossible unless they actually start contributing it's more or less a crapshoot. There are situations where it can be active scum while town is apathetic and lurks it out, but it feels like there's a little too much discord between the active players for that to be the case.

Which one of the more inactive players do you think can be scum?
And how far have you read? I don't expect you to have read everything because you said that you skimmed. But then, who doesn't skim? I remembered that the first time that I replaced in, I skimmed and ended up with reads which are definitely one of my best. Thus, I'll take your reads as though it is 100% correct.

...you realize I'm voting you, right?

[Jacket]

I refuse to believe 374 is an authentic town reaction to my opening.

[Jacket]

Was the comment about taking my reads as though they're 100% correct supposed to be sarcastic, or what?

[Jacket]

Please elucidate, RH9.

My reaction to

Jacket

was heavily borrowed from the reaction of

Noraa

to

STD

in Open 833. But

Noraa

was a member of the groupscum and

STD

replaced into a slot which was part of the uninformed majority.

However, I'm not a member of the groupscum and hence my self-comparision to

Cook

when she was VT in Newbie 2080 with you and

Roden

.

(Now I'm starting to borrow from

Taly

and

Greeting

in regards to temporarily bolding names.)

...why did you copy the reaction of someone who was scum?

[Jacket]

Re 345 - there we go. That wasn't that difficult, was it.

I have... multiple issues with that post. First is that that kind of reaction test is very bad. Scum is likely to jump onto a weak vote, sure, but you know who else is likely to jump on it? Town. Because it was a weak vote. Voting someone because "I have the most posts, and they're saying they need more from me to sort me" is obviously flawed as hell - you have *the most*, doesn't mean you have *enough*. And most posts =/= most content.

Then, you said that scum is likely to make a case out of a weak vote... which is something I never did. I just mentioned in passing how your reasoning for voting Greeting was horrible (which you admitted) and I didn't even vote you for it. And also you never did end up voting me, you just unvoted Greeting.

That said, I think most of my problems with you now are that of playstyle, not necessarily alignment.

VOTE: A Dreary Saturday Evening

I remember thinking some of their reads were lazy at

some

point. I probably can't be fucked to effort if half the game isn't playing.

I'm following along but not saying anything.

Nothing worth commenting on?

[Jacket]

Skimmed the game. I have a handful of weak-ish townreads and exactly one scumread.

VOTE: RH9

What did you skim to get exactly one scat read?

...the game? It's not that long. I have more than one read. I just don't talk about stuff right away all the time. Right now I'm more interested in poking at things and seeing how people react. And why is it a shit read if you didn't like RH9's posts either?

[Jacket]

I’m not allowed to reference the slimy buildup on soap by it’s true name, so I’ve been experimenting with other ways to refer to it.

You said your skimming yield exactly 1 read of an evil doer. What was it that you skimmed that led you there?

Oh, nevermind. You can say scum. You don't have to be a weird boomer about it.

Sarcastic response to being named as a scumread by RCE in 116 felt off, too over the top a response to very mild pressure. His one serious push has been essentially just parroting Nathann's suspicion of StrangeMatter with 111, but it doesn't feel like there was any real grasping of the reasoning, just aimlessly copying it to look like he had something to do, since he backed almost immediately 126. And since then...he hasn't pushed anywhere? He's just been kind of floating and calling people like Nathann and Galron town, and those reads are...unobjectionable, they don't really advance the game much and they don't really give me any sense the guy is interested in finding scum at all. In contrast to the

inactive

players not advancing the game, he's

active

but only really giving the appearance of being here while not doing anything to move the game out of the stagnation it's experiencing.

[Jacket]

Bells go off in my head when I read “skimmed”. The fact that you are ingesting the game whole and not coming at us with a “read” from a skim makes me lean town on you and scum on Jacket.

I mean, I've read the game. Don't know why you're being a pedant about my word choice. I'm just holding back a little.

Preconceptions from before I replaced in was that between A50 and Salsa, A50 read as more town to me so I wanted his slot. Not because of anything he did that was pro town, I just thought his posts were funny. Salsa's tone always just reads as scummy to me though. I want to see what Jacket does since I think I'll have a better chance of correctly reading him.

Past track record says I'm skeptical.

Funny though, A50 was one of the slots I didn't like. Figured based on the last game with him it'd be obvious when he's town, and he was...not that, for the time he was in this game. I'll wait and see on you, though.

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That last pop-in from Greeting is...not great.

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Don't really see the Greeting or Strange townreads that Three does, think Cupcake is probably town (suspicion on my slot, even if wrong, felt real and not like a shitpush). Felt like Scorp['s been okay.

Eh. It's an okay list, not really blown away.

[Jacket]

I think Jacket replaced in. Got his red pm, and was totally lost because SF had like 2 posts. So he skimmed looking for any mention
Of SF and much to his dismay, found nothing, and is having a tough time generating content because of it. This slot feels… sus, but I’m just a boomer trying to talk like the cool kids.

I've read none of salsabil's posts. And I'm hardly lost.

[Jacket]

Do you really think I got "lost" reading 15 pages? Do you really think that's a thing that would happen?

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Why would I read the posts of the person I replace? They mean literally nothing to me. They don't help me solve anyone. I skipped all of them.

[Jacket]

I seriously can't fathom where Scorpious is coming from with this push.

[Jacket]

That last pop-in from Greeting is...not great.

Which post do you mean?

423/424 - a single question to RH9 who is getting a lot of attention, and a clarification of something he was saying to Three.

Is that all you have to add to the game right now? Do you have any reads, at all?

[Jacket]

Wait...for what, exactly? It's 4 and a half days to the deadline.

[Jacket]

What made you think A50 can make himself obvtown so early into the game?

I remembered him being fairly obvious town right away in 2242, but I went back and checked and he replaced into that game, so probably not the best comparison, but still, his content here was entirely fluff/trolling, with basically no real attempts to solve, and making weirdly self-conscious posts about not doing anything rather than...actually making game-advancing content, which he had no trouble doing in that other game.

[Jacket]

Uh.

UNVOTE:

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Not really happy with how the game is playing out, need to change things up, will try to do a reset tomorrow.

[Jacket]

I'm not sure I like this post, coupled with the vote on RH9 in the previous one. It seems like he's saying that he feels like this isn't the case with active scum and apathetic town, but then he votes one of the more active slots? Not saying that he can't have scumreads inside active players if that's his general view on the gamestate, but it feels odd considering he didn't elaborate on it at all.

I think you're misinterpreting my point here. Which is probably my fault for not being explicit enough.

I would characterize the following slots as not doing enough to be readable, as of the time I replaced in:

A50
ADSE
Not_Mafia
STD
StrangeMatter

Now, they obviously can't all be scum. But there's probably scum in there, because it does not feel like a game where scum are running the show, and I felt like the people talking were townie enough. (hopefully, anyway - bit me in my ass in my last game, but that was a case where scum were active but just letting the town eat itself alive).

To me those slots were basically all a dart throw. Acceptable compromise but pretty much a blind guess when it comes to whether or not they're scum.

The one player I

did

have a scumread on was RH9, so I chose to push there, rather than someone who was more inactive and nullish.

As it is, I'm doubting myself on that push anyway.

[Jacket]

Also, Jacket, why the unvote?

He said a thing I don't think comes from scum.

[Jacket]

Spoiler:

Skimmed the game. I have a handful of weak-ish townreads and exactly one scumread.

VOTE: RH9

What did you skim to get exactly one scat read?

...the game? It's not that long. I have more than one read. I just don't talk about stuff right away all the time. Right now I'm more interested in poking at things and seeing how people react. And why is it a shit read if you didn't like RH9's posts either?

If the game isn’t that long. You shouldn’t have to skim. Your replacement counterpart said he was reading specifically. It concerns me that you are also making me repeat why I’m using different “s” words. I’m not going to explain why I’m doing it again. You can look and read. I’m not calling your read shit even though I think it may be.

I think Jacket replaced in. Got his red pm, and was totally lost because SF had like 2 posts. So he skimmed looking for any mention
Of SF and much to his dismay, found nothing, and is having a tough time generating content because of it. This slot feels… sus, but I’m just a boomer trying to talk like the cool kids.

I've read none of salsabil's posts. And I'm hardly lost.

Why not? Wouldn’t that be the first thing you do?

VOTE: Jacket

Do you really think I got "lost" reading 15 pages? Do you really think that's a thing that would happen?

I seriously can't fathom where Scorpious is coming from with this push.

I can’t for the life of me remember how to snip quotes. Sorry

Re: Nathann’s question about using site mechanics to know who’s online.

In other sites I’ve played on, it’s blatantly against the rules. So it struck me as off. I don’t think it’s AI,

As far as skimming goes. Depends on the context. I would think a replacement would want to read as critically as possible.skimming to catch up in a game you’ve already been active in is much different.

Hot take: I think this is scum distancing from each other. Scorpius' aggression towards Jacket doesn't read as natural; the moment Jacket replaced in, Scorpius immediately had a bone to pick with him. The attacks he's made feel very over the top, and Scorpius' reasoning for scum reading him feel too weak and manufactured VS how he's actually treating Jacket. Jacket also is barely fighting back and doesn't seem to be showing even a hint of suspicion towards Scorpius despite thinking that the case on him is unfathomable.

Furthermore, Scorpius has decided to further put suspicion on Jacket and is tunneling the "skimming" argument, but doesn't have much else to say about everything else going on in the game. He hasn't even acknowledged mine or anyone else's scum reads on him.

So much for being able to read me. If you're expecting me to blow up in response to getting pushed, that's just not going to happen.

The thing about Scorpious is, his case on me is terrible, nitpicky, and based on a ridiculous theory (I don't read my predecessor as either alignment), but I had sort of liked his posts before that. I have a hard time telling when someone is scum making bad faith attacks on me or town who has the wrong idea. Still trying to work that out.

[Jacket]

As it is, I'm doubting myself on that push anyway.

Okay, fair enough. Mind telling me what's got you doubting this push now? In my readthrough of the last few pages, I got the feeling RH9 has gotten worse, not better.

I didn't like most of his responses either, but the self-assuredness of 468 didn't really feel like it came from scum.

[Jacket]

Also, Jacket, why the unvote?

He said a thing I don't think comes from scum.

Alright I'm back, I've been way too disconnected from this game much like last time.

Can you walk me through what you think doesn't come from scum, and why?

See my above answer to Nathann. Is that the only thing you have to talk about after being gone for three days?

[Jacket]

What's wrong with the current game state? It's not particularly active but I think the leading wagons have a good chance of flipping red. Do you town read them?

I think about the moment when Greeting basically point blank refused to give reads is when I realized things aren't working the way they are. I'm all for minimalism but there's too many people who are holding their cards close to their chest or refusing to do anything, and the whole game ends up as a staring contest.


Right now, Nathann, Galron, CB, Scorp, RH9, and Three are people I don't want to elim, for various reasons. I'd vote any of ADSE/Greeting/N_M/STD/SM.

[Jacket]

VOTE: StrangeMatter

Testing a theory: multiple low-impact posters but they're the one who is getting talked about the least. (Well, besides Not_Mafia, but, well. That's to be expected)

[Jacket]

Also, Three suspecting me is probably town-indicative, annoyingly, because their read on me was similarly bad in my other game and they are clearly falling into the same traps.


I'll believe Greeting has reads when I see them.

[Jacket]

VOTE: StrangeMatter

Testing a theory: multiple low-impact posters but they're the one who is getting talked about the least. (Well, besides Not_Mafia, but, well. That's to be expected)

As someone not familiar with them. Could you explain why this is expected? Is this just their play style?

Nothing to do with playstyle, don't know them at all. Theory is that when there's a lot of low activity players, the town ones tend to get pushed to the forefront of discussion because scum will avoid calling out their inactive buddies.

[Jacket]

why does scum do what i've done so far

Alright enough of this. It was mostly getting the ball rolling very very early with a meta read, but you've done this (trying to just stay out of everyone's radar) in two of the other games I've played with you. I think it's well within the possibility here still that you would still try to do that as scum in this game and just go under people's radar until later.

Links to the two games here as well.

viewtopic.php?t=86874&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=87863&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Do you think he's playing similarly to those games? It feels like from a quick look at both of those he was a lot quicker to get the ball rolling/provide content as scum than he has been here.

You also only linked scum games. Have you compared it to his town game at all? Do you think there's a difference?

Also, is STD literally the only person you're going to have a read on this game day?

[Jacket]

I don't think ADSE's style is inherently scummy, mostly I just have a hard time seeing where they're coming from with a lot of their takes. Like, I didn't understand why they thought Galron was pocketing Greeting.

[Jacket]

I'll believe Greeting has reads when I see them.

The ball's in your court, mister. Anything on my readslist that piqued your interest?

Grateful to see my skepticism was unwarranted. I'm still chewing on it, don't expect an immediate response.

[Jacket]

Kind of dumb, but I actually townread Greeting demanding engagement with his read list more than the list itself. I mean, A for effort regardless, but the fact that he's not content to just throw that list out and bask in approval for it. Granted, it might have been easier to get conversation if it were done a little sooner, but whatever.

@Greeting:

FWIW, someone reading into their predecessor before replacing in like Three did isn't all that uncommon. Of course, talking about it ingame isn't really alignment indicative.

Your read of CB feels like it should be a scumlean, you keep listing a bunch of stuff that comes across negative but then cap it off by linking two posts and saying "they come from a townie point of view". Do those two posts outweigh the other stuff that much? What is it you actually like about them?

I should probably try to actually explain my read on Scorpious in another post, I haven't really agreed with the reasons people had for suspecting him.

Eh. I feel like this is kind of a lame response, I read most of the stuff and just want to go "yeah, fine". I could nitpick the RH9 read but it's not worth elaborating on.

[Jacket]

I'm kind of shocked anyone could have me as top town right now.

With regard to Scorpious: the big brain Slayer's_Gambit of 345 is the type of play I almost never see scum making. People always end up paranoid of it and scum usually end try to justify their actions in a conventional way, rather than claiming "I was being scummy on purpose!!". His earlier posts had good questioning and a healthy dose of paranoia toward other players, they weren't bad by any means, so it's honestly hard for me to believe he'd make a weak vote "accidentally" and then try to cover it up with that excuse as scum. I don't really get the hate he's getting for that. I didn't like his push on me, but I feel like he could have just been legitimately misinterpreting the post I made when I was entering the game and getting hung up on my word choice.

[Jacket]

Kinda hate the AtE in bold. No I'm not expecting you to blow up and I'm not sure why you think I would.

I think your responses to both of our cases feel extremely muted. You're just saying my read is bad and Scorpius' case is bad, but you're not really explaining why. This is especially egregious with Scorpius, because you both answered each others' questions towards each other with further questions that attack the legitimacy of what the other person is saying. You say you're not sure if Scorpius is acting in bad faith, but in the posts I quoted your responses seem to imply that you do think so.

Why do you think he scum reads you more aggressively than anyone else off of something you yourself think is ridiculous if he is town?

You have a poor understanding of what an emotional appeal is. I'm mocking you because you came in talking about how you think you should be able to read me based on one game of experience, even though you misread me pretty terribly in that game, and now you're wrong on me again (assuming you're town).


You're saying I have a "muted" response to your cases. Why do you think that makes me more likely to be scum? Your read on me is based largely on trying to tie me to Scorp, which I know is both wrong and completely ridiculous. The idea is that because I'm not responding aggressively to him, I must be scum with him. But I just don't respond to pressure aggressively, and you

should

know this. You're right that I felt like his attacks on me were trash, but I try not to reflexively OMGUS people, because I feel like that leads to bad reads. I try to work past the frustration of being accused to determine if the person believes what they're saying. Sometimes this ends up being to my detriment.



If Scorp's town, he misinterpreted me saying I "skimmed" as me not really reading the game and analyzing it. I did read the game, I was waiting for a few hours for the mod to actually confirm me. He seemed to be caught up on some theory about me not reading what my predecessor said, which is an expectation of how to play the game that is completely different than how I actually play. Could he make those attacks in service of a scum agenda? I suppose, but right now I doubt it because his posts that are not about me don't feel scum motivated.

[Jacket]

Why aren't either of you looking at the case I presented?

I'm not "looking at the case" you presented because any argument that I am scum because of my interactions with Scorp is

prima facie

wrong, and there's no actual rebuttal to give. I know I'm town, so I can't be scum with Scorp. Having to make arguments in the form of "If I was scum with Scorp, I wouldn't be playing this way" are almost completely useless. Although it's funny to me you seem to be so confident scumbuddies would act this way, given that I have never seen scum interact the way me and Scorp have.

If you're town, this is an incredibly unproductive tunnel to be heading down. Pre-flip associative reads on Day 1 are almost never right. If you want to make a case for why I'm scum independent, go right ahead and try, and I'll tell you why it's wrong.

I see. So then Strange should go if not Scorpius?

Interesting that both of you shade RH9, and then Strange as well after RC brought up that point about Strange and Salsa. This all feels very weird.

I do not want to eliminate Scorpious. Strange would be my preferred vote, although most seem to disagree. I don't like that they're hyperfocused on STD to the exclusion of the rest of the game. I'd probably vote ADSE over Scorp if necessary for the deadline.

I didn't "shade" RH9, I outright scumread him when I replaced in, although I've changed my mind since then. I have no idea what RCE's point about Strange and Salsa was supposed to be, or why it matters. What are you trying to imply?

[Jacket]

Shading my read on you here again isn't good, like I have no idea what you mean by saying I'm "clearly falling into the same traps" because this isn't even close to how I read you in Opossum Mafia. There I fake argued with you about a playstyle thing try to get scum to think I would tunnel you so they would leave me alive, here I'm seeing associations with my biggest scum read and weird interactions between you two.

...okay, I didn't realize that was actually what you were doing in that game. I still think your guilt by association reasoning is really bad.

[Jacket]

You say I have a poor understanding of what an emotional appeal is then immediately admit to mocking me.

I didn't say I should be able to read you off of one game I played with you. I also didn't misread you there. And you're not really explaining how I'm misreading you here either.

If you think I'm wrong about your ties to Scorpius, explain why, because you haven't done that. You don't have to respond aggressively to his accusations, or mine either. But saying nothing more than "your read is bad/unfathomable/ridiculous" doesn't tell me anything and I'm just left with trying to read your tone and interactions.

This is responding to literally almost nothing I actually said.

[Jacket]

I am not scum with Scorp, because I am not scum, period. I do not need to disprove myself being scum with a player who has not been flipped. Why is that a hard concept to grasp, Three?

[Jacket]

I'm kind of shocked anyone could have me as top town right now.

With regard to Scorpious: the big brain Slayer's_Gambit of 345 is the type of play I almost never see scum making. People always end up paranoid of it and scum usually end try to justify their actions in a conventional way, rather than claiming "I was being scummy on purpose!!". His earlier posts had good questioning and a healthy dose of paranoia toward other players, they weren't bad by any means, so it's honestly hard for me to believe he'd make a weak vote "accidentally" and then try to cover it up with that excuse as scum. I don't really get the hate he's getting for that. I didn't like his push on me, but I feel like he could have just been legitimately misinterpreting the post I made when I was entering the game and getting hung up on my word choice.

Not sure how I feel about this, and the general townbinning Scorpious for doing that gambit. Like, he's an experienced played, and he said himself he likes doing that gambit to sort. Which means it's not a one-time thing he came up with here, it's something he's used to doing, so it's more likely he'd attempt it regardless of alignment. I don't see what's stopping scum from doing a "gambit" there, in hopes of a townie correctly calling out what was a terrible vote in order to seem proactive.

Maybe this isn't that signifcant, considering he never did end up voting me, but eh.

Occam's razor. I've never seen scum attempt to make that kind of justification for their play. It's possible one

could

do it, but in my estimation unlikely, because those types of plays tend to backfire. If his other posts were terrible I might reconsider, but I had felt, for instance, that 231/235/239 was a strong interrogative sequence that showed he was really intent on sorting Galron.

[Jacket]

Guilt by association...? I just thought your interactions were fishy.

Saying "these two people have fishy interactions, they must be scum be scum together" is a guilt by association read. The problem with that read is, if Scorp's town, your reasoning for me being scum falls apart completely.

[Jacket]

You say I have a poor understanding of what an emotional appeal is then immediately admit to mocking me.

I didn't say I should be able to read you off of one game I played with you. I also didn't misread you there. And you're not really explaining how I'm misreading you here either.

If you think I'm wrong about your ties to Scorpius, explain why, because you haven't done that. You don't have to respond aggressively to his accusations, or mine either. But saying nothing more than "your read is bad/unfathomable/ridiculous" doesn't tell me anything and I'm just left with trying to read your tone and interactions.

This is responding to literally almost nothing I actually said.

This is a direct response though...?

You have continued to ignore the points I am actually making in order to demand I disprove your case about my interactions with Scorp making us scum together. This is in spite of me repeatedly explaining why I believe trying to address such arguments are beyond useless. I find it increasingly harder to believe that this is coming in good faith, that you are that unable to comprehend what I am saying.

[Jacket]

Guilt by association...? I just thought your interactions were fishy.

Saying "these two people have fishy interactions, they must be scum be scum together" is a guilt by association read. The problem with that read is, if Scorp's town, your reasoning for me being scum falls apart completely.

Are you serious

Guilt by association requires a flip. I'm pointing out your interactions and giving thoughts on them and explaining my reasoning behind my thoughts. I've made it very explicit that it isn't a "guilt by association" read. Why are you even arguing this?

And obviously my reasoning falls apart there. Because I'm going by interactions. I'm not sure what your point is by saying that.

Great. So you're full of shit.

[Jacket]

There's not enough time left in the day, but if I'm alive tomorrow I'm thunderdoming Three.

[Jacket]

Which, BTW, there's only 15 hours left.

[Jacket]

What did I ignore? Why is this not in good faith to you but a random death tunnel because you said the word "skim" is?

You have never actually explained why me having a "muted" response to pressure makes me more likely to be scum.

I have tried to explain why I responded to Scorp the way I did, and how this is a trait of how I play, rather than anything alignment indicative. You refused to even touch this point.

I have also already explained why I didn't push back on Scorp right away - when someone pushes me I try to question them to see if I can determine their intentions.

Scorp pushed me for reasons, I explained what I was doing and why his reasons were wrong, he realized this was likely a clash of playstyles between us and backed down. I did not get the sense he was pushing me just for the sake of pushing me. (I can already see you citing this as evidence that we are obviously scum together). Again, this is something I keep explaining.

I have also explained why trying to rebut arguments about interactions can only result in "a bunch of wifom garbage", as Nathann put it. You ignore this to keep claiming I'm refusing to give you a rebuttal when I have repeatedly explained why I believe it is bad reasoning that is worthless to respond to.

I do not believe you could be so dense as to not comprehend what I am saying despite me making the points repeatedly. That is why you are not arguing in good faith.

Complete 180. Wow lol.

You've been adamant that I'm town though? And said you dislike OMGUS? Is this supposed to make me town read you?

This is willful misrepresentation. I said that I do not want to eliminate you and that your suspicion of me was

probably

town-indicative. This was in part due to a faulty assumption on my part that you had misread me entirely in 2242, which is apparently untrue. I was never strong on you being town and I think it's pretty clear my opinion of you degraded over the course of our interactions as you repeatedly demanded I prove myself to not be scum with a player who hasn't been flipped.

Acting like I was confident you were town is a ridiculous distortion to try to discredit my push back against you. It's also verifiably untrue.

[Jacket]

Nathann
Scorpious
Galron
Cupcake Butterfly

Greeting
RH9

Save The Dragons
A Dreary Saturday Evening
Not_Mafia
StrangeMatter



Three

[Jacket]

Thinking about it, CB might be a tier too high, although that's splitting hairs.

[Jacket]

Which way is this list going?

Town to scum, obviously. Names only loosely ordered within tiers.

[Jacket]

UNVOTE:


I don't actually feel great about Strange as scum anymore.

[Jacket]

Also, Newbie 2084 (the second game I played with

StrangeMatter

) just ended and

StrangeMatter

won the game as part of the scumteam. That means they can emulate their null-ish and neutral playstyle well as scum too.

I feel like they're playing completely differently from that game compared to here.

[Jacket]

I'm kind of shocked anyone could have me as top town right now.

With regard to Scorpious: the big brain Slayer's_Gambit of 345 is the type of play I almost never see scum making. People always end up paranoid of it and

scum usually end try to justify their actions in a conventional way

, rather than claiming "I was being scummy on purpose!!". His earlier posts had good questioning and a healthy dose of paranoia toward other players, they weren't bad by any means, so it's honestly hard for me to believe he'd make a weak vote "accidentally" and then try to cover it up with that excuse as scum. I don't really get the hate he's getting for that. I didn't like his push on me, but I feel like he could have just been legitimately misinterpreting the post I made when I was entering the game and getting hung up on my word choice.

What do you mean by "in a conventional way" here?

As in framing it within conventional reasoning, "oh I thought this was scummy because xyz", not "a ha you thought that post was scummy but I did it on purpose AS A TEST". People are much more likely to call bullshit on the latter.

[Jacket]

Strange in Newbie 2084: More willing to give opinions on a broad array of topics, more willing to interact with people, but unwilling to be at the forefront of the game, lets the town murder each other while they hang back appearing reasonable.

Here they're more aggressive, more singularly tunneled on one particular player. They won't even give reads on others when pushed to and I feel like as scum they'd be perfectly content to just fabricate reads. I had thought they might have been a frozen newbie who had trouble faking reads but that is self-evidently not the case.

[Jacket]

Intention to vote ADSE. We're running close to deadline and I don't want to vote Scorp. ADSE saying they had been solving in their notes but only outing a limited number of reads and promising more later doesn't sit right with me.

[Jacket]

If there's a vig, please shoot not_mafia.

[Jacket]

VOTE: Three

[Jacket]

What a mess. I assume we're left to our own devices to figure out how did each of them die.

If there's a vig, please shoot not_mafia.

That probably explains

Not_Mafia

's death.

And well, the mafia wouldn't kill one of themselves, so

Cupcake Butterfly

must have been the night kill.

So we have at least two vigilantes?

Do we know how many scums are there? Is it even public knowledge? I'm looking for this information, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

C9++

Roleblocker flip means at least three mafia. Possible one of the kills was an SK, rather than a vig.

[Jacket]

Galron flip messes me up. Went completely under my radar. Going to reread that ISO.

[Jacket]

I’m leaning town on Scorpius.

Can you elaborate on that because I wasn't then I was then I wasn't and now I think I am. I want to hear someone else's analysis to help me think that through.

Please explain who’s analysis brought you from here to this:

More votes on Scorpious please

Because I'm waffling on you and I want to know what everyone else thinks of you.

Scorpious isn't mafia. Whole exchange with Galron is basically clearing, was Galron's only real push the entire day.

[Jacket]

I can barely get anything else from that ISO. Only thoughts are he asked some questions to Greeting/RH9/Strange that were mildly critical and could be distancing. Interactions very limited.

[Jacket]

M = Innocent Child (Confirmed at start of Day 1 by mod)
D = Doctor
V = 1-Shot Vigilante

MDV ????

Three kills, so we know there's at least one more non-T letter. Could be VV and it was an SK skill, could be VVV and both were vig shots.

I think we should probably mass claim to figure out the setup, but I'll let RCE decide.

[Jacket]

C9++

Roleblocker flip means at least three mafia. Possible one of the kills was an SK, rather than a vig.

At least three including or excluding

Galron

?

I think I'll follow my earlier hunch and

Scorpious

' idea of putting some pressure on

RH9

.

VOTE: RH9

Sorry, meant at least three mafia (including Galron), plus possible serial killer

[Jacket]

Greetings, do you have any actual thoughts on people's alignments? Same question to Scorpious, actually.

I have two, maybe not

per se

about alignments.

Not_Mafia

is a jester and I know that from another game I've been in with them. Plus, they were scum in this game. But we apparently also have a second jester, who seems really more invested in distractions and diversions and not the actual game.

I'm really, really distrustful of jesters.

And that is, VOTE: Save The Dragons. Until they show me otherwise.

This seems to me a lazy vote. You are or are not scum reading him or are you just waiting for him to town tell?

Could easily be a chainsaw defense, actually.

[Jacket]

RCE
Jacket
Nathann
Scorp

Greeting
Strange
RH9
STD
Three

[Jacket]

I was pushing them but then I looked at their recently completed scumgame and doubted it. Three is blatant scum for their bad faith arguments against me yesterday and insisting I refute their argument that I'm mafia with Scorpious. Since Scorpious blatantly isn't scum with Galron, it completely falls apart and makes it a transparent shitpush.

[Jacket]

Jacket: "how dare you accuse me of being scum with Scorpius"

Also Jacket: immediately coordinates a mislim on ASDE before I can even respond to shut down discussion, then tells the Vig to shoot NM for literally zero reason before we can even get a claim out of him and thus gets our Doc killed

HMMMM I wonder who needs to die today

VOTE: Jacket

There was a deadline approaching. I didn't "coordinate" shit - I would have hammered ADSE even if N_M hadn't because we needed to get a flip and I didn't want to elim Scorpious.

N_M deserved to be vigged because he wasn't playing the game. Trying to blame me as if that was antitown is horseshit.

You continue to out yourself as blatant scum with every post.

[Jacket]

I can barely get anything else from that ISO. Only thoughts are he asked some questions to Greeting/RH9/Strange that were mildly critical and could be distancing. Interactions very limited.

Asking questions is distancing but voting someone isn't.

So you think that Galron was distancing from StrangeMatter or Greeting? Interesting. Nathann just mentioned SM's lack of content. What if Galron was distancing?

No, that was sarcasm.

Great.

I can't recognise sarcasm and when I try to be sarcastic, it also can't be recognised.

Sorry, I should've been more clear. I think it's ridiculous to dismiss someone parking their vote on a player and say that can't be distancing, but then claim that asking another player a question is a sign of distancing.

But then again, Jacket is also saying Scorpius can't be scum for making a bad faith argument against him while I am scum for making a bad faith argument against him. So ridiculous statements should be expected.

I am saying Scorpious misunderstood the things I was saying as a result of playstyle differences, and you are scum making a shitpush.

[Jacket]

I can barely get anything else from that ISO. Only thoughts are he asked some questions to Greeting/RH9/Strange that were mildly critical and could be distancing. Interactions very limited.

Asking questions is distancing but voting someone isn't.

Scorp was literally the only person Galron pushed to elim and Scorp reacted in a very non-partnery way. Are you seriously still trying to argue that Scorpious is mafia? Because there is no way anyone looking at the game from an intellectually honest point of view could think that.

[Jacket]

Also as far as the Galron kill goes, I'm fairly certain it has to be a SK who had him as a town read. ADSE was the only one who correctly deduced that Galron was scum and even noted that he was pocketing Cupcake. Galron was otherwise in the null-to-town range for everyone else.

Town better apologize to ADSE in the post game btw. They actually caught scum and got voted out for it for no good reason at all.

LAMIST

[Jacket]

I was pushing them but then I looked at their recently completed scumgame and doubted it.

Mind giving me the tl;dr when you can?

Strange in Newbie 2084: More willing to give opinions on a broad array of topics, more willing to interact with people, but unwilling to be at the forefront of the game, lets the town murder each other while they hang back appearing reasonable.

Here they're more aggressive, more singularly tunneled on one particular player. They won't even give reads on others when pushed to and I feel like as scum they'd be perfectly content to just fabricate reads. I had thought they might have been a frozen newbie who had trouble faking reads but that is self-evidently not the case.

You could say Strange has been in the background this game and you wouldn't be wrong, it just felt like in the newbie game they were actually more "present", just riding off what other people were doing, while here they're doing their own thing. Looking at their other games they seem to be elimbait as town.

[Jacket]

Town better apologize to ADSE in the post game btw. They actually caught scum and got voted out for it for no good reason at all.

What? This is preposterous. Sure, we were in the wrong with this wagon, but I believe they got voted out for pretty valid reasons. I'm not going to apologise.

That is scum trying to blame town for miseliminating a player who was a reasonably justifiable day 1 vote. It's not a remotely honest sentiment at all.

[Jacket]

i think ADSE is town

Slowly coming around to this. I'm getting the sinking feeling that they're mislim bait.

This is the only thing Three said about the ADSE wagon. Just scum trying to distance themselves from what they knew would be a green flip.

[Jacket]

You got two players killed over playstyle and both flipped town. Not only were you wrong, you went after LHF and didn't let either of them claim. I refuse to believe you're town here. You don't get to fuck up this badly and hide behind "but they were policy eliminations!" without actually putting in the effort to actually try to read those slots.

I didn't even vote ADSE. I announced my intention yesterday, and scorp voted and N_M hammered before they had a chance to claim. Blatant distortion of events on your part. And they were never a strong scumread for me. They were voted

because deadline was approaching and we needed an elimination

. Not_Mafia dying early is protown in all instances, I have zero regrets there. You trying to pin blame on me in particular for this shit is why you're blatant scum - I'm far from the only player who was okay with them dying, but you want to pin it all on me because it fits your awful preexisting narrative for me being scum.

[Jacket]

If people cannot see how blatant obvscum Three is being with this push, this game has absolutely no hope.

[Jacket]

Yo I don't really want to play yet another game where scum gets caught but town listens to them anyway and acts shocked when we lose. Like this shit seems really obvious to me but it's already becoming clear pushing out obvscum is going to be such a needless struggle.

Town Doc and Mafia Roleblocker are both dead. Vig 100% can't be stopped today. I will just volunteer myself as today's elimination to stop this bullshit in its tracks, Vig just needs to shoot Jacket today. This is just preferable to me at this point, because I really don't want to have to argue for however many days we have that Jacket is obvscum just for me to get mislimmed anyway and then everyone forgets Jacket got caught after I'm dead.

Desperate.

[Jacket]

Intention to vote ADSE. We're running close to deadline and I don't want to vote Scorp. ADSE saying they had been solving in their notes but only outing a limited number of reads and promising more later doesn't sit right with me.

Intention to vote ADSE. We're running close to deadline and I don't want to vote Scorp. ADSE saying they had been solving in their notes but only outing a limited number of reads and promising more later doesn't sit right with me.

I don’t see any urgency in many as deadline draws near, I’m not about to leave securing a lim to chance.

I would not shy away from hammering. But I will have about an hour window after e-1.

If there is no movement in 20 mins past this post. I will be putting ADSE on e-1.

It’s 3:21 pm local. I will be making the vote at 3:45, unless things need to be said.

Can we elim tryhard scum Scorpion?

Cute…

VOTE: ADSE

ADSE IS NOW E-1

VOTE: ADSE

I announced my intention to vote and went out for a run. Scorp went and put ADSE at E-1 and N_M hammered. I came back from my run in twilight and said N_M should be shot. Three is trying to claim I'm responsible for ADSE when my intention was to wait for them to post a claim.

[Jacket]

Go for it. Not going to be scared off by your shitty bluff.

[Jacket]

People go "oh wow would scum really selfvote here" and big brain themselves out of it. You're not a newbie so you shouldn't be pulling this type of shit as town, It's totally premature and makes no sense from that perspective. Getting mis-elim'd here is potentially game-losing for town. That's why it's a bluff.

[Jacket]

I think this is time to say halt to this and wait for others to weigh in. I’m not exactly the person to be lecturing others on self-hammer/self-vote play, but I am calling for some restraint here.

Three

’s attempt at that might be townie play, and I can say that, because I’ve done this before in mafia games as town, naively hoping I would be the hero of the game. Spoiler: I wasn’t, and one of the two games where I did this was lost.

Three's not a newb. I'd be reading the play differently if they were. That's why it's a bluff.

[Jacket]

Almost half the players alive havn't even posted yet, and Three is supposedly throwing in the towel because it's totally hopeless to elim me and they need to die to make it happen? Fake. So fake.

[Jacket]

I have exactly zero fear of getting vigged if Three flips town, because it would mean their reads were gamethrowingly bad and the game was unwinnable anyway. They're not own though.

[Jacket]

Are we not playing the same game here Jacket? We're at an impasse: you think I'm scum, I think you're scum. We want each other eliminated. Unless you think we're going to somehow find each other as town, what would be the point of keeping us both alive?

Furthermore, why did you tell the Vig to kill NM anyway? He voted the player you wanted to eliminate. Why not ask to have me Vig'd if you think I'm obvscum? I feel like that just makes it obvious you want me around as mislim option.

I didn't suggest keeping us both alive, what are you on?

If you're not paying attention, there's more than one scum. N_M was plausibly scum, and if he wasn't, was playing anti-town. That's the ideal use of a vig shot because it saves you a day voting him out. In what world are you more mislim bait than N_M? That's complete nonsense, if I was scum I'd want him alive as long as possible.

Absolutely awful post, completely disingenuous reasoning.

[Jacket]

Almost half the players alive havn't even posted yet, and Three is supposedly throwing in the towel because it's totally hopeless to elim me and they need to die to make it happen? Fake. So fake.

How is "here's a plan to guarantee scum elimination" throwing in the towel?

I have exactly zero fear of getting vigged if Three flips town, because it would mean their reads were gamethrowingly bad and the game was unwinnable anyway. They're not own though.

You literally read the game so poorly that you got two townies killed on a whim, one of which was our Doc.

Saying I'm reading the game poorly implies that you know I'm town, which is a perspective slip. I'm not "reading poorly" if I'm scum. (And anyway, I don't give a shit. Being wrong happens in a game of mafia. It doesn't make someone scum, and anyone who isn't a disingenuous scumfuck like yourself knows that)

[Jacket]

Also has nobody else noticed how over the top Jacket's reactions and attacks on me have been? He's gone from town reading me to scum reading without changing the actual reasoning for his read on me. And the attacks themselves are very shallow; the contents of his attacks consist almost entirely of either trying to guilt me for "misreading" him, or making personal attacks against me/my skill at the game to make me doubt myself.

And finally, his reaction to the deal I'm offering betrays just how terrified he actually is here. There is no reason for him to be so confident that I'll flip scum but then hesitate and say I'm bluffing. Like what? Just vote me lol, pre-emptively defending yourself even though he supposedly "knows" that I'm scum proves he's really just full of shit. It's possible he thought I was SK and that voting me out today would buy him time, but then realized he's fucked since SK would care more about self-preservation.

Also generally makes no sense for him to get upset at me if I'm scum since I'd just be playing to my wincon. Yet he's somehow offended by what I've said, yet also believes that I'm obvscum. The math isn't adding up here.

The reasoning for my read absolutely has changed, you lying trash. I started off thinking you were wrong!town tunneling me like you had before. Then, I both found out that that you weren't actually tunneling me in that other game, by your own admission, and you continued to push me for disingenuous reasoning that is completely nonsensical. There's eventually a breaking point where it becomes clear the person trying to attack you in these games doesn't care about anything you have to say and will invent whatever ridiculous lie they have to to get you eliminated, and you crossed that threshold.

If there's anyone here being shallow it's you, with your constant awful logic and misrepresenting of easily verifiable facts. The notion that I'm scum because Scorpious voted me and I didn't push him back is horseshit. The idea that I refuse to "disprove" you awful case makes me scum is horseshit. The idea that I'm getting pissed off at your absolute bullshit makes me scum is nonsense, you're throwing out nothing but cliches saying I'm "defense" and "terrified" but the whole of your argument is completely hollow, there's no foundation for it whatsoever, you're just making shit up and hoping it sticks.

I am already voting you, dipshit. I did it at the start of the day. I'm calling it a bluff because it's meant to intimidate other people into not voting you.

This is one of the worst fucking cases I have ever seen in a game of mafia.

[Jacket]

Or just vote Jacket because he called me obvscum but then demanded ADSE get mislimmed and NM get Vig'd.

Again, flagrant istortion of the truth. You're obvious scum. We also had barely any time left before deadline and very little activity. Even if I could have convinced people you were 100% mafia it was unlikely there would be enough time to get a wagon on you. It's better to have an elimination day 1 than none. This is basic stuff. Of course, it's convenient for scum to sit on their own on a vanity wagon and then blame town for the mis-elim.

Again, you're being absurdly fucking disingenuous right now, I swear to god, if no one else sees this the game is an absolute disgrace.

[Jacket]

So much for being able to read me. If you're expecting me to blow up in response to getting pushed, that's just not going to happen.

Well...

It happened.

Turns out I have a breaking point.

[Jacket]

Let's talk about Cupcake being the scumkill Target which is more alignment and gamestate indicative than vig/SK's targeting.

No clue. He was actually falling in my reads at the end of the day because he wasn't doing anything memorable. Most of his last posts were pushing the wagon on ADSE and didn't mention much in the way of reads besides that. Probably a PR hunt kill rather than anything reads-based?

[Jacket]

We have the core of your arguments (three and jacket) so at this point it's probably best for you both to step back for a bit or focus elsewhere for a moment and come back.

I have an idea of where I stand on both slots but the AtE makes me want you both gone and I don't feel that's the best way to go about it

I keep getting hammered by Three using outrageously terrible logic and then accusing me of not being genuine when I call them on their outrageous shitpush. Almost no one else is even talking, so I don't have a lot to work with. Gave my reads but not strongly confident on anyone besides Three.

[Jacket]

How much of this game's important content will I lose if I skip all of Jacket and Three's shitfight? I'll probably end up reading it anyway, because I hate myself, but it's nice to dream.

I don't think there's any actual content besides that, honestly.

But if you want

something

else to look at, take a look at 223 231 235 239 and tell me if you think it makes sense as being partnered with Galron.

[Jacket]

In Three-world, apparently Galron voting for Scorpious and Scorpious voting for me on day 1 means we are all mafia together, as if that makes any sense whatsoever. As if that's how scum play. Three is continuing to push a worldview that doesn't really make sense based on Galron's flip, because Three does not care about trying to solve the game. They only want to pursue a narrative that is convenient for them.

[Jacket]

(I could totally see Scorpious as being the one who shot Galron, though. Or possibly StrangeMatter, because while I don't think they're groupscum their play kind of fits the profile of an SK trying to go under the radar)

[Jacket]

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

What do you mean by less opportunistic, and especially what do you mean by mechanics? Also, what pings you as less opportunistic?

Strange never actually talks directly abut Galron, only has this post in their ISO asking RH9 about him. Doesn't do a whole lot for me either way.

[Jacket]

i think galron's town

i think galron's town

Enlighten me?

i played a game where galron just asked banal questions and was scum

i played another game where galron was actually invested and played kinda more like this and was ubertown

meta is bad

that's why i said "think"

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=87844 - ubertown game

can't find the scum game

Meh. Most people were wrong on Galron in a look through ISOs, so I'm not sure what to actually think about this. I think the read combined with 178 is potentially partner-indicative.

[Jacket]

So what's your read on Scorpious, Greeting? And if you don't have one, what will it take to get you to have one?

It's neutral. There is nothing that worries me and nothing that makes me think that they're town.

Post 208 can be interpreted in various ways. I'm choosing to interpret it as a good way to find some harder clues on anybody, but I keep it in the back of my mind to see which way the game will progress from this. What I mean is, only time will tell if overreliance on meta turns this game into a bizarre twist. But so far, the progress has been quite slow, and the impact of this post has been small, even though 13 hours passed since that post was made. The only player whom I really feel like I can compare-check, knowing them from past games is

StrangeMatter

, but I still think it's too early for me to draw any definite conclusions (see post 218).

I understand that you're relatively new here so like with the jester thing I want to make sure I understand you. What do you mean by bizarre twist?

Let me paint a picture.

Scorpious

makes a post which leads to players pouring out their experiences with others in the game. Players start pouring their thoughts. Two, maybe three posts align in content and players find some common points. This starts to carry the game, with players getting obsessed with meta and, indeed find someone who's acting differently. That becomes the sole reason why they're being voted out. This is what I would call a bizarre twist and could be used easily to frame someone.

And here's what I say to this picture: meta can be useful, but personally I would never vote out a player just because they act differently to another game. To me, it always comes second to actual reads which I see as: content (obviously), voting record, tone of posts. Meta in my eyes can support a townlean or a scumlean.

Oh and what will it take me to get me to have one? More time and more posts from them.

Who is this about?

You.

Galron

I don’t want to eliminate Galron today.

I can characterise their playstyle as being open - open to suggestions, open to thoughts, open to investigation. And this more often occurs amongst town than scum. They’re fairly relaxed and their pokes toward other players (110, 178, 359) make sense, are logical and warranted. I’m sort of thankful for them, because they generate content from other players for me to analyse. And this is actual content that moves the game forward.

Nonetheless, this cannot also be a townlean. What this slot lacks is more conviction, and stronger reads than posts with few sentences and words. The only longer read by them I found is that on myself (mistakenly labeled as „Cupcake”, although it’s sweet being called „Cupckake”!), in 327. I need more analytical thinking and more effort to comfortably elevate this to a soft townread.

Greetings, do you have any actual thoughts on people's alignments? Same question to Scorpious, actually.

I have two, maybe not

per se

about alignments.

Not_Mafia

is a jester and I know that from another game I've been in with them. Plus, they were scum in this game. But we apparently also have a second jester, who seems really more invested in distractions and diversions and not the actual game.

I'm really, really distrustful of jesters.

And that is, VOTE: Save The Dragons. Until they show me otherwise.

This seems to me a lazy vote. You are or are not scum reading him or are you just waiting for him to town tell?

So what's your read on Scorpious, Greeting? And if you don't have one, what will it take to get you to have one?

It's neutral. There is nothing that worries me and nothing that makes me think that they're town.

Post 208 can be interpreted in various ways. I'm choosing to interpret it as a good way to find some harder clues on anybody, but I keep it in the back of my mind to see which way the game will progress from this. What I mean is, only time will tell if overreliance on meta turns this game into a bizarre twist. But so far, the progress has been quite slow, and the impact of this post has been small, even though 13 hours passed since that post was made. The only player whom I really feel like I can compare-check, knowing them from past games is

StrangeMatter

, but I still think it's too early for me to draw any definite conclusions (see post 218).

I understand that you're relatively new here so like with the jester thing I want to make sure I understand you. What do you mean by bizarre twist?

I think we're on the same page, Greeting.

This also doesn't really do a whole lot for me. I think the questioning leading to "I think we're on the same page" could be pocketing as ADSE theorized but there's nothing here that makes me say these people are definitely not partnered. The read on Galron seems to split the difference a little neatly and avoid actually calling him town, which I could see an inexperienced partner doing.

However, I think on individual play Greeting has still shown a strong effort level in his analysis, which for a newbie is typically town-indicative. Shrug.

[Jacket]

Sorry Galron! Don't worry, you are my townlean!

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

How does that add to me being town?

Forgot about the SK.

RH9, I'll try to make this clearer:

You said you think Galron is town, and as per 211, it's because he's not talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic. While I don't think that's really a good way to read someone, I'm not sure I get why town!you, who's allegedly townreading Galron, posts 194 - this post seems like you agree with my scumlean on them and are trying to encourage me. Why did you post it?

It was a misinterpretation.

What does 266 even mean??

I forgot that the SK could exist.

I guess I'm having trouble how SK relates.

I forgot that even though I find that you aren't Mafia, it doesn't mean that you can't be the NK-Immune Miller Vig (if that exists).

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

What do you mean by less opportunistic, and especially what do you mean by mechanics? Also, what pings you as less opportunistic?

Galron would be more into pocketing the first person he sees as Mafia as well as talking about the underlying mechanics of the game instead of solving.

What does 266 even mean??

I forgot that the SK could exist.

I got that you were saying you forgot about the possibility of an SK, I'm just not sure how that relates. The explanation for "I think you aren't Mafia, but I don't know whether you're SK" is... fine, I guess, but my problem then is why you're pointing that out with Galron, while you don't seem to be pointing that out with your other townread. What makes you think Galron might be SK, that you don't also extend to me?

If you want, I could.

The question wasn't whether you can; the question was why you didn't. I'd like if you answered it. And do you often evade answering questions by making evading comments like these?

OK. I just think that your scumhunting felt more Town than SK.

OK. I just think that your scumhunting felt more Town than SK.

...What about it felt more town than SK? How does one's scumhunting even feel SK-like?

IDK. It's just vibes.

Now that Nathann has answered, I want to explore this a little more. "Just vibes" can you talk about that more? In practice there shouldn't be difference should there?

Like the feeling of his posts. There is kind of a difference in that Town wants to solve and SK wants to survive to endgame. I feel like he was SK, which I don't think he is, he would just be more passive. Aggression comes up to me as Town solving and wanting to sort, while being passive could be either SK, Mafia, or a PR. However, I'm not going to PR hunting.

@Cook VC please?
Thank you in advance.

Why are you holding on to your vote?

Also, Jacket, why the unvote?

I need a definite scumread. I currently just have loads of nullreads, who I need to sort.

You should know. Galron voted you in D6 for it. I don't want to be misread or misinterpreted. I want the truth to be revealed.

But RH9 you said you were afraid to sound ott defensive. When I voted Taly in that Ronald Reagan game, he sounded ott defensive, and he was, indeed, scum. Really if you're town you shouldn't be worrying about what you're sounding like.

Will take this advice to heart.

I...hrm. Wouldn't say any of this is great. But...

203 would be a pretty cringey thing to say to a teammate. That last post, 501, doesn't feel like something a partner says? Galron is shading RH9 and RH9 just goes "okay I will listen to you". Normally with teammate interactions there's some kind of deliberate pushback. A lot of what RH9 says is very weird, I lean toward just being wrong on a shallow meta read?

I don't know. I feel like I'm throwing darts blindfolded trying to make sense of this stuff.

[Jacket]

Before I really delve, I will say this.

I was not a fan of Jacket claiming to have intent of initiating an E-1 and then just sit of abandoning the idea.
How much time were you planning on letting elapse before the vote.

I waited. Then waited again. No word from you at all. Can you explain this.?

And maybe you have but I have not read much past me being unfunny.

The intention was to wait and give ADSE a chance to post in order to claim/give reads. I don't know what you think my nefarious plan here was supposed to be, exactly: say I'm going to vote and then not, and rub my hands evilly as we no-elim day 1? Hardly makes sense.

[Jacket]

Full disclosure: I interpreted that post as a PR softclaim.

[Jacket]

"The truth will come out and I will watch the downfall of all those who misread" seemed to be implying that he'd be able to confirm himself as town with a claim and so people would face consequences for being wrong about him. Didn't think that was a threat he'd make as scum.

[Jacket]

I'm not sure I like this post, coupled with the vote on RH9 in the previous one. It seems like he's saying that he feels like this isn't the case with active scum and apathetic town, but then he votes one of the more active slots? Not saying that he can't have scumreads inside active players if that's his general view on the gamestate, but it feels odd considering he didn't elaborate on it at all.

I think you're misinterpreting my point here. Which is probably my fault for not being explicit enough.

I would characterize the following slots as not doing enough to be readable, as of the time I replaced in:

A50
ADSE
Not_Mafia
STD
StrangeMatter

Now, they obviously can't all be scum. But there's probably scum in there, because it does not feel like a game where scum are running the show, and I felt like the people talking were townie enough. (hopefully, anyway - bit me in my ass in my last game, but that was a case where scum were active but just letting the town eat itself alive).

To me those slots were basically all a dart throw. Acceptable compromise but pretty much a blind guess when it comes to whether or not they're scum.

The one player I

did

have a scumread on was RH9, so I chose to push there, rather than someone who was more inactive and nullish.

As it is, I'm doubting myself on that push anyway.

I find it slightly curious there is no mention of Galron on this list. He’s not on the “unreadable list”. But there is no read on him, same with me and others. But just an observation.

Why make a non readable list then offer a read on exactly one person? Complete with hedge.

Then, In the very next post we have their only direct interaction with each other this entire game

Also, Jacket, why the unvote?

He said a thing I don't think comes from scum.

Something off here

Pretty sure I expressed that I thought he was town later. I was wrong. It happens.

[Jacket]

Galron didn't post that much after my replace in, go and check for yourself. Wouldn't have been much opportunity for interaction. Should have realized at the time he was coasting. Sucks, but that's how it goes.

And "I'm doubting myself" isn't a hedge - that's me actively deciding I might be wrong on RH9 and dropping the push.

[Jacket]

So for whatever wild reason, I'm being lead to believe that Scorpius, Jacket, and myself are likely all town. That seems to be the consensus right now, correct?

I do not remotely think that is true. Most people are just avoiding taking a side.

Jacket thinks RH9 is town

I am not expressing that read with a high level of confidence (and if that post I highlighted wasn't a PR softclaim, it's ++scum).

[Jacket]

So for whatever wild reason, I'm being lead to believe that Scorpius, Jacket, and myself are likely all town. That seems to be the consensus right now, correct?

So with have three consensus town reads...

Are we reading the same game? I can see Scorpious and Jacket being consensus townreads, but I don't remember you being townread, let alone that being consensus.

Also, why are you supposedly fine with Jacket being considered town here? Why are you trusting his RH9 read?

Are we really going to pretend I'm not obvtown

I'm not fine with Jacket being town here but nobody's fucking listening to me. So going by the logic that is being pushed, I'm completely wrong and the PoE is instead so miniscule that we still basically auto win. This really isn't a hard concept. And I don't understand the point of getting mad at me for tunneling Jacket and then questioning why I'm coming up with alternative elimination routes.

"But you're not a town read!!!"

Then fucking vote me like I told you to several days ago. Holy shit. Why are we even arguing this?

This game has been the very definition of players wanting to have their cake and eat it too, and it's severely killing my WIM. To the point where I genuinely just prefer to get voted out here so the Vig can kill Jacket, because I don't see any other way to save town from themselves other than through brute force solving.

You're getting ignored because your logic is terrible and you're falling back on empty AtE to try to get what you want.

[Jacket]

So for whatever wild reason, I'm being lead to believe that Scorpius, Jacket, and myself are likely all town. That seems to be the consensus right now, correct?

I do not remotely think that is true. Most people are just avoiding taking a side.

Jacket thinks RH9 is town

I am not expressing that read with a high level of confidence (and if that post I highlighted wasn't a PR softclaim, it's ++scum).

It was not a PR soft claim. I am not a PR.

I didn't ask you to claim.

[Jacket]

I'm torn between following this plan...

Jacket if you're town this should be the easiest vote of your life. If I flip anything other than town, you won't get Vig'd. Seems like a pretty good deal to me, you get to eliminate me without any further argument here.

VOTE: Three

and pressing to see whether RH9 is shielding the ADSE wagon.

You can scumread me now.

Because I'm not lying about not being a PR.

To me, the miselimination was unlikely scumcoordinated because we know that RCEnigma, N_M, and CB are all Town. I know that I'm Town and I TR Nathann. Greeting and Scorpious don't seem like they are groupscum. Therefore, scum was trying to coordinate another wagon and to me, that feels like the wagon on Scorpious. We know that Galron who is scum, started it and likely tried to get his teammates to get Scorpious eliminated. It fails though. I think that scum is somebody on that wagon.

Questions/suggestions/concerns/engagement are all welcome. Also, a votecount.

...what are your reads?

[Jacket]

This game has just straight died..

Probably the upcoming holiday taking away people's attention.


I'd be okay with voting Looker if he continues to offer basically nothing.

[Jacket]

I don't have thoughts on RH9 premature claiming here. It doesn't make a ton of sense as either alignment. The "you can scumread me now" feels like a dare, though. Don't care for that line. Mostly find it strange because he seems to agree on the popular townreads but isn't pushing anywhere.

[Jacket]

The fact that even now, when Jacket continues to take pot shots at me and call me obvscum, he refuses to follow the plan to vote me and got scared when Looker suggested going through with it should speak volumes. But whatever. My WIM is dead and I'm ready to end today.

I have literally been voting you all day and still am.

[Jacket]

I don't think you guys know what you're doing. "Give me a gamesolve or you're scum" isn't a legit tactic, neither is "Everybody's quiet so they suck". What are your questions? This is a discussion, not a homework assignment. No one's going to talk to you if you're rude or combative...or boring.

I'm also cool with flipping as long as there's retribution. STD voting me with no reasoning is odd and worth looking into post-flip, as is Nathann if RH9 is adamant there were no scum on ADSE's wagon (which I think is a peculiar take).

I'm literally just asking if you have reads, and you're not really giving any.

[Jacket]

That doesn't take into account jacket/three could be Sv3p or Tv3p but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

Scorpius/looker/std as today's pool

Worst case tomorrow is 3v2v1 but if we do have a vig their shot is probably best served within this pool of the remaining two not elimmed.

I'd vote looker or STD. I don't think Scorp is mafia because of Galron.

[Jacket]

Especially since Jacket refuses to shut the fuck up? Like for real my dude, if I'm dead wrong and you're not scum or even SK, I'm embarrassed by your behavior.

I've barely even said anything to you the past couple days. You're flailing.

[Jacket]

I said your case is bullshit and called you scum for it. Keep crying about it.

[Jacket]

That was probably too harsh. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but as part of this game I cannot assume good intentions on everyone's part by default. You have continued to make illogical and even outright dishonest arguments for me being scum and ignored everything that contradicts your reasoning while continuing to repeat the same bad arguments ad nauseam. I find it hard to believe someone who is actually trying to solve the game could believe the things you do. And nothing right now tells me you aren't flailing scum who's getting emotional in the hopes of using it to escape elimination.

[Jacket]

Last I checked, you're the one who's doing the self vote and AtE routine while complaining about the game. But I'm the one crying and screaming.

[Jacket]

You know what? This isn't worth it. I was perfectly okay talking about the rest of the game and ignoring you until you came in. You're just baiting me to try to rile me up again. I'm done with you.

[Jacket]

VOTE: Looker

Three sucks. Obnoxious player. Not dealing with them again.

[Jacket]

VOTE: Looker

Weren't you thinking the slot isn't scum? Is that for the hammer, or should I stop being lazy and actually read?

I was changing m mind toward the end of yesterday seeing as he was providing almost nothing to the game, and the hammer sealed it.

At least there was only one death.

[Jacket]

RCEnigma, is massclaim a good idea here? Considering the shortened deadline, we should get to it if we're planning to.

Yes, it's MeLo so we lose on a miselim. I mean I'm kinda ready to lose this game already but if you want my input I'll give it.

We do not have a Vig but we do have at least 1 more pr for the town.

SK with roleblocker means we rolled T 1 or 3 times.

I also have a loose order I'd want claims in I think. But I see some merit in massclaiming by role and not by slot.

Has to be a vig because of 3 deaths N1, right?

I just wanna like elim jacket and if we lose we keep it moving.

But I'm out right now so I'll give some attention to the game maybe later tonight.

I would recommend not throwing the game just because Three got stupidly tunneled.

[Jacket]

The next posts from {looker/StD/jacket/Scorpius} should be VT/ Not VT claims. Then RH9 and Nathan.

VT

[Jacket]

Don't think Looker/STD are ever s/s here, means it's highly likely I'm misreading someone.

[Jacket]

Dragons as confirmed town makes me feel significantly better about my vote on Looker.

[Jacket]

You would have to show me the soft.

If there's a vig, please shoot not_mafia.

This, followed with Not_Mafia dying from what really seemed like a Vigilante shot. It made sense in my head.

I don't think I'd have ever overtly called my shot like this as vig, FWIW

[Jacket]

I think it's really super obvious to anyone that's not Three that Scorp wouldn't try to bus his teammate immediately on replace in. But maybe that's because I'm biased.

[Jacket]

Thoughts last night were that I might be being overly generous to Nathann and really need to refresh my read there. Still don't think Scorp is likely to be groupscum. If we're in a SK setup (which I think is confirmed now?) he could potentially be SK. Although that statement could easily apply to anyone.

[Jacket]

Sorry, holiday weekend then returning to email hell at work.

RH9, and Nathann are my scum reads .
STD could be whatever. No ideas how one would read that.
Looker and Jacket are my towns.

VOTE: RH9

Why looker?

[Jacket]

Would kind of assume Nathann would just shoot me if he really thought I was vig. But maybe he's copying me thinking RH9 was softclaiming. Would be cheeky.

[Jacket]

Thoughts last night were that I might be being overly generous to Nathann and really need to refresh my read there. Still don't think Scorp is likely to be groupscum. If we're in a SK setup (which I think is confirmed now?) he could potentially be SK. Although that statement could easily apply to anyone.

Ok. If Scorpius is SK who do you think he plays toward in this endgame?

I don't really know - the absolute level 0 read was that he'd shoot Galron because Galron's one main push was on Scorpious. It didn't go deeper than that.

[Jacket]

Scorp having me as town now is weird given previous days but don't see why he lets up on the read unless I'm stupidly pocketed.

Reread of Nathann says I don't have any great reason to townread him here, doesn't have anything anti-asociative with Galron. Posts are fine but nothing unfakeable. Still more confident on Looker, though.

[Jacket]

Trying to imagine what it'd be like if you'd have to read the ISO of someone you replaced in a 200+ page large theme game. Would suck a lot.

[Jacket]

Can you explain the Looker townread?

[Jacket]

Can you explain the Looker townread?

Scorpious, answer this. It is a very good question.

Not a town read, no read.. 50/50 on looker and std.. coin flip for me at this point.

Sorry, holiday weekend then returning to email hell at work.

RH9, and Nathann are my scum reads .
STD could be whatever. No ideas how one would read that.

Looker and Jacket are my towns.

VOTE: RH9

?

[Jacket]

Agree that Scorpious being oblivious about the claims is null. Still think the more likely answer here is that he's stubborn town.

[Jacket]

No, the key piece I was suspicious of was the "A PR wouldn't be claiming VT here". I think that's the only difference in our initial approaches. Lol having to trust people's words is exciting. If it's not STD, then I think it's Jacket - coming for me for not contributing when STD previously had no justification for such a lackluster ISO is madness.

I said it was between you and STD. STD claimed PR. You also had the "accidental" hammer yesterday.

[Jacket]

I'm getting basically nothing from Nathann and Scorpious arguing.

[Jacket]

I think you guys are putting more stock into Galron spewing Scorpius town than I am. That said I'm fine with flipping jacket today.

You shouldn't be.

[Jacket]

You should be voting Looker, or, failing that, Nathann. I' not sure about all of Scorp's case but the way he called out Galron a bit but didn't really push it does look like distancing.

[Jacket]

Still haven't heard an actual reason why RCE seems to think I'm sum beyond Three's shitty case pairing me with Scorp.

[Jacket]

Accepting STD's claim without scrutiny feels like TMI to me.

There literally has to be a vig, that's not TMI. Awful post.

[Jacket]

Does

anyone

think there is a reasonable chance Looker is town? We have 5 non-clear people, 3 antitown in that group, no one has given an actual reason to townread him but people are dancing around giving a read on him and pushing elsewhere

[Jacket]

You or RH9

[Jacket]

Kinda funny how Jacket sees me and Scorpious in a pretty much locked 1v1, and goes "we could yeet Looker tho". The fact that he'd sooner put me as Looker's buddy than Scorpious, even when that would mean that I have been bussing for no reason for The Whole Game, is concerning. If I'm wrong on Scoprious being not mafia, that's his partner right there.

FMPOV there's only one other town among you, why would I not want to go for my most confident read?

[Jacket]

If I had to decide though I vote Nathann over scorp every time here, though. I guess it'd be pretty funny if this was a mafia vs SK fight, though.

[Jacket]

If I had to decide though I vote Nathann over scorp every time here, though.

Cool, why?

Gut.


I guess I can't shake the feeling that although you're out-arguing him here, you've played a "safer" game than him, which makes more sense as coming from scum here.

[Jacket]

Would like to note at this time that there are roughly 2 days left until he deadline.

[Jacket]

Yu realize there are only 4 town left, right? There's no "leeway" for others, you're a deciding vote here, otherwise it's just town and scum getting in a shouting match and no one budges. Mafia/SK aren't technically aligned but are going to only be voting in their own interest.

[Jacket]

Std's stance is known, my stances are known. There was an entire day for the two remaining town to move towards a resolution and instead it was spent with a back and forth between the two slots that the confirmed town don't want elimmed here.

SKs interest is to vote against scum. Especially if their BP was struck already but that's only a minor issue compared to losing town majority to scum who have agency with the nightkill.

and I'm sitting here fucking begging them to vote fucking Looker and neither of them budges. What the hell are you expecting to happen?

[Jacket]

I think that STD fearkilled Greeting.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

He's the vig.

VOTE: RH9

[Jacket]

There's no CC and there had to be a vig because of three deaths night 1. This is the third person this has had to be explained to.

[Jacket]

We lost anyways because the SK will just kill RCE while the Mafia kills STD.

...you calling out your plans?

[Jacket]

UNVOTE:

Feel like that was a low-key scumclaim but if it is we actually need to try to vote the SK today

[Jacket]

Yeah that's a super weird post.

[Jacket]

VOTE: Jacket

@Mod: Can we get a slight extension for the holiday?

Worthless

[Jacket]

Awful clear AFKs the whole day and refuses to engage with anything I say then votes at the deadline

[Jacket]

One of the worst excuses for a player I've ever seen. Stay out of my games, thanks.

[Jacket]

Assume this is essentially unwinnable but will put my vote elsewhere if there's actual will for it

[Jacket]

Why even sign up for a game if you're not going to try at all, RCE? Piece of shit.

[Jacket]

Had the whole week to actually engage me on why you think I'm scum and wouldn't say shit. Not_Mafia tries harder than you.

[Jacket]

Can see why the mafia left you alive since you're so bad at this.

[Jacket]

VOTE: scorpious

I don't give a fuck anymore.

[Jacket]

VOTE: scorpious

I don't give a fuck anymore.

All that and you vote the VT?

I have to vote somewhere.

[Jacket]

Only thing I know is that I'm town so anyone else has at least a chance of being right.

[Jacket]

I don't get why scum aren't jumping on me, actually

[Jacket]

Only thing I know is that I'm town so anyone else has at least a chance of being right.

It’s like a car mechanic. You gotta trust someone. I’m going with you. I believe you. I am also town.

Who else would you bloc right now?

Pretty sure there's only 2 VTs left + the IC + the Vig

[Jacket]

I guess nathann+looker mafia and RH9 SK isn't impossible

[Jacket]

UNVOTE:

[Jacket]

Just frustrating to have the game come down to a day where half the players are doing nothing.

[Jacket]

I guess nathann+looker mafia and RH9 SK isn't impossible

But I'm the VT. I promise.

Then why have you not tried to find scum at all today

[Jacket]

Too late. Deadline's already passed.

[Jacket]

Hilarious bit, though, waiting until after the deadline to vote

[Jacket]

I didn't mean to.

Oh,for sure man.

[Jacket]

....god

[Jacket]

I think we no vote today and leave it in the hands of the SK? I don't know, I'm sick of this game and want to lose already.

[Jacket]

i'm wondering if people could post readlists for my benefit, would be nice to see where everyone's at

scorp
nathann
rh9
looker

least to most willing to vote. RH9 moved down because of his voting stunt last phase.

[Jacket]

Jacket, what about Nathann says not scum to you?

I don't not scumread him. I'm still willing to vote him.

[Jacket]

Well.

VOTE: Looker

[Jacket]

I don't think anything of him hammering. The SK was outed and any vote that wasn't him was a good one. Why did you not vote?

Pissed that the SK scumsided there.

[Jacket]

Honestly, StrangeMatter mentioned Salsabil Faria too in 80, but is just focusing way too much on STD. (Salsabil Faria, can I just refer to you as Salsa, like StrangeMatter does, in the future in case I misspell your name?)
P-edit: VOTE: StrangeMatter
StrangeMatter, please explain your focus on STD over Salsabil Faria.

I have more experience with STD than Salsa if that’s what you mean. Also I haven’t changed because I don’t want to. Explaining further ruins this as I’ve stated a lot more, and I’m focusing on people one at a time then moving on when I think I have a good read.

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

What do you mean by less opportunistic, and especially what do you mean by mechanics? Also, what pings you as less opportunistic?

StrangeMatter, you mentioned only one towngame for STD? Have you seen his other towngames? I don't think that using only one towngame and two scumgames for comparison is fair to STD.

Have you considered that STD can change and that his towngame is no longer like it was before.
I think that you might be confbiased. I have seen confbiases and experienced confbias. It has hardly ended well except when the confbias is dropped.

I'm not really confirmation biased just focused on STD right now. I've had games where after a few couple of games (though this is off-site) I pretty much understand what their scum gameplay is and what they prefer to do as scum from what I know of them. So while I normally don't normally put a lot into meta, this is one of those times I (personally think) have a good track record of actually getting right and something I go to on whenever I can with people I actually know.

As for not being fair, I'm fine with going through again. And that last question I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at. Yes, people can change (in fact this definitely happened to me at one point) but it lines up with what I currently understand about STD's scum gameplay.

Looks scum/scum

[Jacket]

Honestly, StrangeMatter mentioned Salsabil Faria too in 80, but is just focusing way too much on STD. (Salsabil Faria, can I just refer to you as Salsa, like StrangeMatter does, in the future in case I misspell your name?)
P-edit: VOTE: StrangeMatter
StrangeMatter, please explain your focus on STD over Salsabil Faria.

I have more experience with STD than Salsa if that’s what you mean. Also I haven’t changed because I don’t want to. Explaining further ruins this as I’ve stated a lot more, and I’m focusing on people one at a time then moving on when I think I have a good read.

Where are you in terms of completion of your focus on STD and what have you yielded so far in terms of information.

Also, what will satisfy you to “move on” to your next person to question. And what decides who’s next?

I've stated what I think means I should move on, otherwise, if nothing happens with the slot and there's no way to get anything out of it then that's also when I just move on.

As far as reading STD, I really don't have much other than what I have right now, which is he's more likely to be scum here if I'm right about what I thought. But that thought's a bit hasty for right now, and I'd like to get more out of him.

@STD what is your reads currently? And can you please be thorough?

Feel like I need to say this. Scorpious, I know that you're the highest poster. However, I would like to say that my highest townread is Nathann. Literally, every post he's made has shown high solving intent. He's been trying to sort everybody and has been acting in a progressive manner. I know this might seem pockety but I am saying this genuinely. I don't care, Nathann, if you don't TR me but I would like to point out how much I am liking your actions.

What is this, really? I’ve never seen someone be so enamored with a slot, and be so unabashed in saying so.

It’s just weird.

I'm wondering though, by what this said here, what's your opinion of my pushes on me pushing STD? Because you haven't addressed that and to me and it bugs me by that kind of feeling I get from potentially (theoretically you as scum here) scum trying to set up partners interaction/who they haven't interacted with later if you flip.

Doesn't look scum/scum.

[Jacket]

VOTE: RH9 He's either SK or scum. If STD is the last PR, there's no reason for RH9 to play the way he's played. Jacket is untrustworthy and pulls people down to his level in arguments, so I'm not pulling a Three with his deathtunnel. STD is dead regardless of 1-shot if she's town. Scorpious vs Nathann is unresolved, but I feel it's devolving into playstyle critiques instead of case-building. I'm with my family, so I don't anticipate changing my vote before the end of the day. Good luck guys and Happy New Year.

Also, there are people jogging shirtless outside and it's December 30th - wtf. Are we all going to die for real?

For me it was moreso waiting to see if you guys would say anything damning. We just had a cockfest with Three and Jacket and it didn't really end well, so I was curious if one of you was aligned with Jacket and trying to repeat the process. It doesn't really matter now, though, because whether one of you is scum or SK, I'm pretty confident in RH9 being the complimentary anti-town. It's really difficult picking a 'victor' when OMGUS is involved.

Edit:@1205

Jackets gives me NoPowerOverMe and Battle Mage flashbacks.

if scorpius is spewed not mafia by galron too, that leaves {jacket, looker, nathann} for mafia

In what way is Scorpious spewed not mafia by Galron?

I want to believe that Nathann is scum (due to Jacket not being hammered with two votes on him), but I feel that would signal the SK. Scum could be not voting right now (or Jacket could be scum). Hitting scum only helps if the SK will collaborate - hitting SK pushes endgame back and gives us more time. I feel RH9 is a good bet for both.

Eh. Not sure actually.

[Jacket]

Seeing as lookers account is older than Google, I’m assuming they replaced in as a favor, and not intending for n being a beacon of activity.

Anything stand out to you Looker about this game?

Sorry, I missed this. No, not really. It just looks like a bunch of strangers arguing over nothing. Do you feel there's something clarifying that has assisted your formation of suspicions?

p-edit Jesus lol

Three seems unnecessarily hostile.

That’s why I asked if it was an alt. Which was promptly ignored.

I’m ok with pressure here

VOTE: Three

That’s E-2 btw

I'm guessing it threw Scorpious off as well, because this vote came after yours

So, i’m not even close to anyone here in mafia theory apparently.

Reading the above makes my head hurt..

I am VT.. however that changes anything. Base your figuring off that and you will figure it out..

You are loved, Scorpious.

I tried to go through the different roles but had to step away. Spoilered are the different elements I see from NKs. I'll return to it later.

Spoiler:

DD = Doctor, 1-Shot Doctor
DDDD = 2 Doctors, 1-Shot Doctor

TTTT = Goon, Goon, Roleblocker
TTT = Goon, Goon, Roleblocker, Serial Killer
T = Goon, Roleblocker, Godfather, Serial Killer

M = Innocent Child
MMM = 2 Masons + Innocent Child

VVV = Vigilante, 1-Shot Vigilante
VVVV = 2 Vigilantes
VVVVV = 2 Vigilantes, 1-Shot Vigilante
More than 5 V's = 2 Vigilantes, 1-Shot Vigilante

I said it was between you and STD. STD claimed PR. You also had the "accidental" hammer yesterday.

I remain skeptical. Accepting STD's claim without scrutiny feels like TMI to me. And insinuating the hammer was dropped on purpose despite the E-2 claim is kind of meh. You're all over the place.

Spoiler: 872/873

VOTE: Three

That’s E-2 btw

if scorpius is spewed not mafia by galron too, that leaves {jacket, looker, nathann} for mafia

In what way is Scorpious spewed not mafia by Galron?

I want to say he doesn't post 1134 if Scorpious is his teammate. But I think from day 3 on he might have been expecting to die.

[Jacket]

You tried your hardest to win Gate as scum but Tanner wouldn't hammer.

Tanner's continued indecision despite your best efforts to make him hammer me made your buddy Luke panic. Luke thought he'd better take out Ari before she not only solves you for the second time and shifts Tanner into deciding you're scum, but also figures out what you're up to at the Wall.

If I were scum Luke wouldn't throw Keep because he sees it's likely I lose Gate. Luke wins Keep, I probably go down against you at Gate, and then it's down to my buddy at Wall. And who's my buddy? I don't have one, I'm town. I already told Tanner who I think yours is, I don't need to tell you who it is because you can just look at your role PM to see.

Please remind me when you mentioned a possible candidate for the buddy of Baltar. It might help remind Baltar and Tanner too.

@RH9: VP Baltar doesn't need reminding who his buddy is.
But for you and Tanner, I shared my thoughts on it in post 1654

Thanks for the reminder. So you think that implosion is likely scum while Baltar thinks that it's likely numberQ?

post 1650

RH9 please unvote because if Tanner mislims me implosion is gonna insta-hammer numberQ and win for scum. I don't want to risk the game on the smaller chance numberQ is the scum.

What if Baltar is right about you being scum with numberQ or you know that if Wall flips before Gate, Tanner will look for associatives? I think that you're just scared because if anybody but implosion flips scum in the Wall, you will be incriminated. What makes you think that implosion doesn't have the possibility to be Town and that he's going to win for Town. I think that my vote on numberQ definitely got reactions from everybody but numberQ. Once I get his reaction, which I can use to sort him, then maybe just maybe I will unvote. However, for now, I'm going to wait.

Tell me if these looks S/S.
I'm avoiding meta but I hope that these pieces of meta help you.

Why are you quoting another game?

[Jacket]

To see if you can tell if this is S/S. This was me and my scumbuddy talking.

I don't get what your point is supposed to be.

[Jacket]

I also have no idea what any of the posts you quoted are supposed to indicate.

[Jacket]

Really?

[Jacket]

If you're town, unvote.

[Jacket]

I don't think you're scum.

[Jacket]

I think it's RH9, when I came out suspecting him, he only gave irrelevant-self meta and quoted stuff but didn't say anything about it, just put it out there. He's not actually trying to find scum or even make an argument, he's only interested in deflecting scumreads on him.

Seriously, if you're town, you need to unvote.

[Jacket]

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's no hammer until there is. Anyway, it's 7 AM in Australia right now. Probably isn't awake.

[Jacket]

Oh he's online

[Jacket]

Don't say I didn't warn you if he quickhammers.

[Jacket]

Well.

If you're scum just end it.

[Jacket]

...


VOTE: Scorpious

[Jacket]

He posted and didn't hammer when he could have.

Why unvote now?

[Jacket]

That doesn't make sense but okay

[Jacket]

My reads sucked this game.

[Jacket]

Which is nothing out of the ordinary, I guess.

[Jacket]

I will be annoyed if this is a slowroll.

[Jacket]

I don't think the timing of the votes on Looker matters. When the vig voted him everyone had reason to follow it, regardless of their alignment.

I think the biggest point in my favor is that on Day 3 when Scorpious was tied up in a 1v1 with Nathann, I kept trying to go outside that and get a wagon on Looker, but no one would follow. Zero reason to do that if I'm scum. Easily could have voted on Nathann or Scorpious to force people to choose between them.

Scorpious going after Nathann like that is probably a sign he knew Nathann was the SK, in hindsight.

[Jacket]

Seeing as lookers account is older than Google, I’m assuming they replaced in as a favor, and not intending for n being a beacon of activity.

Anything stand out to you Looker about this game?

Softball question. No purpose, no follow up, interacting for the sake of forcing an interaction.

Sorry, holiday weekend then returning to email hell at work.

RH9, and Nathann are my scum reads .
STD could be whatever. No ideas how one would read that.
Looker and Jacket are my towns.

VOTE: RH9

Can you explain the Looker townread?

Scorpious, answer this. It is a very good question.

Not a town read, no read.. 50/50 on looker and std.. coin flip for me at this point.

Calls Looker town even when that's technically impossible, then when asked about it, backpedals it to a "50/50"

Also leaning toward Looker over STD as scum based on your vote.

Scum team is Nathann,Looker and idk wtf RH9 is but he isnt town.

Distancing. Starts calling looker as scum but remains with his vote firmly planted on Nathann.

Top of my list of scum is Nathann. He keeps exhibiting scum behavior and has pretty much gone through the checklist of scum being pressured. No doubt he’ll jump on this post.

RH9-has bothered me throughout the entire game by being so reliant on talking about past games. Like scum struggling to find content so using an unlimited supply of meta from other games would make sense to draw off of. Has also been very reluctant to do anything since the day started. Also, the elephant is the late vote. To me

Jacket might be really good scum, but his logic is tight and doesn’t seem like, I’m most hedgey on this one but that sucks cause I think he’s the most pivotal . I’m just going with gut and trusting him

Looker is null, but I’m not going to figure out a player like that this fast. Maybe votes can tell us more.

Town on STD.

Scum will either have a good knee slap at these or be impressed. I’m probably wrong. But that’s where I’m at.

Then suddenly null for some reason where before he was calling him scum.

Whole play pattern is from someone who wants to call looker scum and look unaligned but doesn't actually want to bus.