Open 609: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[PantherPunt]

Hi all! (Hi Lizard - sorry about pushing your lynch in n1628. not sure if I ever got to tell you that)

Will catch up now. Full disclaimer - This is my first open setup, so pardon anything that sounds derpy. It is not an intentional derpclear attempt (although saying this is redudant since I called attention to the possibility in the first place).

Let's have fun. Let's lunch scum.

[PantherPunt]

So I've only played a few games in total, but have really tried to start honing my ability to tone-read. Its helpful when we are this early in a game, as there isn't much to analyze.

So, I have a good feeling about Flow, Max, and Bella being town to start the game out.

I have a bad feeling about Alchemist, Varian, and TTH.

And I just skimmed Joraman's completed newb game. If I played in that game, I would have no confidence in my reads either. Seems genuine enough to me. I'll go town for him too.
Who was it that said they looked into him and he didn't have any completed games? That will need more explaining than "didn't count marathons" or whatever it said.

[PantherPunt]

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

scum aren't looking to gain anything. just cast shade and suspcion that they hope others latch onto

VOTE: alchemist

[PantherPunt]

Finally! I thought this game would never get here.

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

did this game take an unusually long time to start?

[PantherPunt]

:S

Bella, why are you being super weird?

@tth: Define 'Super weird'.

She's flip-flopping a lot on TTH. Seems weird to me.

Alch - why did you feel the need to step in and answer for TTH here?

[PantherPunt]

So, I have a good feeling about Flow, Max, and Bella being town to start the game out.

I have a bad feeling about Alchemist, Varian, and TTH.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the IC/SE's from your newbie game were scum.

are you really going out on a limb? tell me about why that's going out on a limb?

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: JoramvanVught

Unless I get some concrete proof he makes these kinds of commets as Town, I think this is the most likely to turn up scum atm.

Did a little stalking on this and he doesn't have any completed games and I'm working from the assumption that he's a newbie. What, specifically, about Joram is bothersome to you?

and can you tell me about how everyone else saw Joramvan's newbie game and you didn't? just kinda weird....

[PantherPunt]

@panther's 130: What do you find suspicious about Alchemist? I'm not seeing it.
Also, how did you catch up on this game and skim another and still form proper reads in >25 minutes? I'm jealous.
pedit: @vedith's 132: That was posted just minutes before mine. I didn't see it until the preview and I couldn't be bothered to change it.
Alch seems to be scumhunting perfectly fine and doesn't really catch my attention as scummy. I have a townie feeling on him.

see my posts since. reading a 2nd time and calling up quotes now.

I got better than I was when we played. played a 32 player and an 85 (role madness/mishmash) offsite since with players from many different communities. opened my eyes a bit.

[PantherPunt]

X|
You're now the second person to miss it, Panther. Please read.

X/

I saw "Day 5" in the thread title and assumed it was still ongoing...

It is way too late at night for me to be doing this.

fair enough. I'll null that point for now. So now that you've seen his newbie game, what do you think of him?

[PantherPunt]

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved? I can't really find the right word right now. :S

I think it's pretty analogous to the role an SE or IC would fill in a newbie game, thus my guess.

I don't understand at all. Why would people who are "involved" with similar "writing/playing styles" remind me of an SE/IC?

You are correlating your play style and involvement with experience? As a general rule?

[PantherPunt]

@Alch. you don't. You read the thread while you are logged in. And you ISO people who are pinging for you. No chance i could have hoped to read all 15,000 posts that went up in the 7 day span of the game

@Alch - what do you think of TTH? What do you think of her assumption that I'm reading you, Varian, and her as scummy because she thinks it's likely that I had SE/IC scum in my newbie game?

[PantherPunt]

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

scum aren't looking to gain anything. just cast shade and suspcion that they hope others latch onto

VOTE: alchemist

You must pay for voting Alchemist!!!
VOTE: PantherPunt
Take your vote of Alchemist, he is town!

I can't tell if you're still being jokey or if you have that strong of a town read this early in the game. Can you enlighten me?

[PantherPunt]

@TTH - do you still think Bella is being "super weird"?

[PantherPunt]

@TTH - do you still think Bella is being "super weird"?

Has she even posted since this? If not, then that's not a valid question really.

*checks* no she hasn't. you're correct. ignore that question for now

[PantherPunt]

No. Though there is a more confident Jormvan in the other game, I think the explanation from Jormvan can also reasonably come from Town, so overall I have the slot as null for now.

Your posts towards Jormvan give me some concern you may be buddying him.

VOTE: Vedith

Well, its nice to have someone that defends me this happened last game to. I was gonna be lynched day 1 but got defended by 1 player and he got all attention of me. when he turned scum day 2 i was once again the one being questioned. I dont want a repeat of that situation. i dont want another scum to start defending me and then people turning onto me.

I townleaned you in 130. you could call that a defense. am i scummy for it?

[PantherPunt]

I can't tell if you're still being jokey or if you have that strong of a town read this early in the game. Can you enlighten me?

This is Alchemist town style man, granted I haven't seen him play scum.
I don't know how much that differs from scum style but I don't see his tone/approach being anything that is raising a red flag.

I mean, if you don't know the scum style, why be so sure he's town?

In my experience, the better playing scum are able to match their town style/tone when playing as scum. That makes them good players.

So with no knowledge of Alch's scum game, are you still pretty sure?

[PantherPunt]

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved? I can't really find the right word right now. :S

I think it's pretty analogous to the role an SE or IC would fill in a newbie game, thus my guess.

I don't understand at all. Why would people who are "involved" with similar "writing/playing styles" remind me of an SE/IC?

You are correlating your play style and involvement with experience? As a general rule?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes. I guessed you had "post newbie game paranoia" because I did myself. It's actually making me think you're more likely town here since the reads seem more natural coming from a paranoid mindset and it has an internal consistency.
When I said "I'm going to go out on a limb" I wasn't just trying to be cute. I was actually completely serious. I don't say things just to waste people's time.

You didn't answer any of my questions. You just said I probably had post-newbie paranoia. What if told you that my newbie game had 2 newbscum? How does that change things? Do you think I'm less likely to be town in that scenario?

And back to my original question - *HOW* can involvement and style correlate to experience? Have you not seen very experienced players with very different playstyles than you? The correlation doesn't add up for me.

[PantherPunt]

I'm gonna go ahead an say TTH is looking worse than Alch, although Alch still on the scumlean side of null.

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

[PantherPunt]

@TTH are you a WVU/PSU person? please say no

[PantherPunt]

@TTH are you a WVU/PSU person? please say no

didnt see your spoiler until just now. It's not a big deal. I was accepted to CMU along with many other more prestigious schools. I went to Pitt because they decided I didn't have to pay anything to go there:)

hope you're not in debt. sicnerely

[PantherPunt]

Well

now

I'm dying to see if I was right or not.

Are you asking me for a truthful answer wrt my newbie game and who was scum? I'll provide one. You just never asked. Just started with an assumption

[PantherPunt]

Well

now

I'm dying to see if I was right or not.

Are you asking me for a truthful answer wrt my newbie game and who was scum? I'll provide one. You just never asked. Just started with an assumption

No it was more of a out-there musing I was planning on checking later, but you forced me to drop what I was doing and look now since you're being a doodyhead.

So you assumed that about me because you said you had a similar experience? Scum IC in first game?

Such a mindfuck for my subsequent newbie games, tbh

[PantherPunt]

I've been hardcore slacking at work. I'll check back in tomorrow morning EST

[PantherPunt]

I have a hard time adjusting to this site after being in 12 hour day phase mode. I almost just said "dead thread, dead villager." Then I looked and realized there are 11+ days left in this phase.

Blah

[PantherPunt]

wut

what wut

[PantherPunt]

@Flow - it's null. You can speculate all day, but speculating about OOG things is shitty play by town, IMO. We will judge his replacement by their in-the-thread game.

[PantherPunt]

tbh, it makes me wipe my gut townread of you, Flow, completely out and put you back to null

[PantherPunt]

is there an echo in here?

[PantherPunt]

I'm glad everyone after me agrees it's null. I don't like the compulsion to post the same thing over and over again. That = fluff. If you just did this, and you're not scum, you're just making it easier for scum to blend in.

I might be biased because I was already scumleaning Alch, but he made the scummiest echo. Because it said literally NOTHING different.
ika - I've actually seen your name tossed around elsewhere in this community, which makes me assume you're experienced and/or good. so your "half-echo" was a tad surprising

@Lizard - I see you are out to rock the boat again. I kind of like it atm

[PantherPunt]

Because that's a way of trying to understand players, their thought processes, and their motivations. I think he's trying to get a good handle on the game to form his reads. I can't see much scum motivation in the way he went about it, particularly in the aggressiveness of it. Maybe I'm giving too much Towncred to his playstyle, but I don't think scum are going to poke around as hard as he has.

I already said I disagree, both town and scum can interrogate everything, it pretty much depends heavily on the player and their playstyle as each respective alignment, it's easier to paint yourself with actions that look townie, it's harder to hide the motivation behind such actions.
What do you think of my points regarding Panther?

Well if you don't like aggression and are trying to *guess* (read: fabricate) motives for things I'm doing, you are going to scumread me all game long.
I find that aggression leads to game solve. When I push aggressively on someone, I find that their responses are what help me really get a read on them.

@Luna Fox - any take on the reasons people thought your predecessor was scummy? Any of them seem reachy/stretchy? Or do you think they were valid?

[PantherPunt]

And how i think he's being disingenous with his "oh i thought we had 12 hours" post.

lol not what I said. Are you sure you're reading?

I said I just came from playing on a site with 12 hour day phases. Hence, two week day phases feel like a quagmire. It's an adjustment.

[PantherPunt]

131 Panther's shoving suspicion onto a perfectly reasonable post made by alch, scumlean. 136 i don't understand, because TTH went and replied anyway and the reply was different from alch's it's not like TTH was hiding behind Alch's reply.
147 gives me the same vibes as 131, mostly because TTH's acusing panther of shoving suspicion onto the "more experienced players" just like newbies do in newbie games, looks like a misrep.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally misrepresenting me or are just having a hard time with comprehension. Can you please let me know which it is?

In 136, I was asking Alch why the need to answer a question not directed at them. TTH's answer after the fact cannot be a *point* in your arguement because it came after I posed that question to Alch.
In my experience, this is something scum will do when a question is aimed at a scum partner.

I'm very confused about your point wrt 147. I don't think TTH was accusing me of shoving suspicion onto more experienced players. That makes it sound like TTH was scumreading me. TTH just said I might be subject to bias. Why do you think I was misrepresenting anything?

On the contrary, I find you to be misrepresenting things with haste in your short time in this thread.

[PantherPunt]

I have a hard time adjusting to this site after being in 12 hour day phase mode. I almost just said "dead thread, dead villager." Then I looked and realized there are 11+ days left in this phase.

Blah

^
Yes this.
Considering you have a completed newbie game, if you supposedly have a hard time adjusting from the 12 hour day phase, why would you still have this issue?

Because I played here for a bit. Then I went and played with 12 hour day phases for a bit. Then I came back here and had a hard time adjusting to the slow pace.

WHAT are you having trouble understanding?

[PantherPunt]

@Luna Fox - what's your forum mafia experience look like? Like how many total completed games would you say you have?

I don't understand how you haven't seen aggression from a townie before.

[PantherPunt]

@Alch, how do you know so much about the hydra?

Lizard, I like your style.

People who are still voting me - I'm finding the early stages of the game difficult, can you throw some questions my way?

I'm not voting you, but I'll ask you a question anyways.

What do you think of me? Luna thinks I'm misrepresenting people and being aggressive in a scummy way.

What do you think of Luna's entrance to the game in general?

[PantherPunt]

136 was a null point, is more of "i didnt understand what you were going for there".
About 147:

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved? I can't really find the right word right now. :S

I think it's pretty analogous to the role an SE or IC would fill in a newbie game, thus my guess.

I don't understand at all. Why would people who are "involved" with similar "writing/playing styles" remind me of an SE/IC?

You are correlating your play style and involvement with experience? As a general rule?

Look at TTH's post, she says that You're scumreading ppl with very similar writing/playing styles, and goes and labels them as "more involved"
She makes an analogy towards ppl scumreading SEs and ICs in newbie games.
You misrep her with the bolded.

lololol I'm misrepresenting her with the bolded part? Even though I'm asking a question? And even though she answered my question in the affirmative?

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved? I can't really find the right word right now. :S

I think it's pretty analogous to the role an SE or IC would fill in a newbie game, thus my guess.

I don't understand at all. Why would people who are "involved" with similar "writing/playing styles" remind me of an SE/IC?

You are correlating your play style and involvement with experience? As a general rule?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes.

I guessed you had "post newbie game paranoia" because I did myself. It's actually making me think you're more likely town here since the reads seem more natural coming from a paranoid mindset and it has an internal consistency.
When I said "I'm going to go out on a limb" I wasn't just trying to be cute. I was actually completely serious. I don't say things just to waste people's time.

Who is misrepresenting who now?
Admit the error of your way or be prepared for me to death tunnel you.

[PantherPunt]

I don't understand how you haven't seen aggression from a townie before.

I have seen townie and scum aggresions.
My issues with you isn't the aggresion however, i've already outlined why i think you're scum in 3 bullet points.

But how many completed games? This is something I ask in almost every game. Why did you snip that part of the question and ignore it?

[PantherPunt]

but the only reason I get why you're voting him is the way he pulled his vote away from me. What do you think makes Panther scum?

Not for how he pulled his vote away from you.
But for how he tried to throw suspicion on a perfectly reasonable statement made by you.

That is your read. My read is my read. I'm scummy because you don't read a post the same way as me?

And how he misrepped TTH.

Wanna take this one back? Or stick with it?

And how i think he's being disingenous with his "oh i thought we had 12 hours" post.

Wanna take this one back, too? Or stick with it?

[PantherPunt]

@luna, I can't say I agree with your assessment on Panther. See alch's point. Panther is interrogating everyone, which probably wouldn't be worth the effort as scum, and could possibly be dangerous for their partners. I can't see many scummy things that panther would do that warrant a vote. Also, this play lines up with my experience of townie Panther. Overall, I don't like your entrance.

I take what people do on the surface with a grain of salt, and look more into what possible motivations their actions might carry behind, see re:his initial scumread on Alch. His play lining up with meta is another matter altogether tho, i didn't read the game that TTH linked (or at least not yet), since i was more focused on getting content in the thread that my predecessor lacked, would you say that if i read this game i'll find a town panther doing the same things he's doing here?

The linked game is not a game of mine. I'm going to write you off as a very lost and misguided townie right now. Literally everything you say is an incorrect interpretation of what you've read, and for that I am choosing to give you a do-over.

Wanna reread and come back in with some fresh reads?

[PantherPunt]

Hmmmmm I don't know. Maybe I didn't agree that it was "perfectly reasonable"

I don't even know the post in question at this exact moment. But the fact that you are voting me because you read one post differently than I read it is laughable. I will be paying zero attention to your reads/votes if you keep this up. If you're town, you're actually a huge detriment to solving this game. If you're scum, good job. Keep it up though, and we'll probably lynch you.

[PantherPunt]

The linked game is not a game of mine.

It isn't?
I see your name in the playerlist.

Ya that's me. My first game. The aggression level has only skyrocketed since, but that's an appetizer for you.

I thought you were referring to this:

@Lizard - I'm not sure if there was any point to your comment, as I'm not sure if you wanted me to follow up or not? Or was your just trying to look productive with minimal effort?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=63011

That's the game though.

Sorry for that point of confusion on my part.

[PantherPunt]

No. Though there is a more confident Jormvan in the other game, I think the explanation from Jormvan can also reasonably come from Town, so overall I have the slot as null for now.

Your posts towards Jormvan give me some concern you may be buddying him.

Here was the post in question. I agreed with Vedith's assessment that Alch just laid down some shade on Vedith, but didn't ask any follow up questions.

In my experience, scum like to throw shade around so that they can later point to those things as a justification for why they are hopping on a ML wagon. They quote that old "suspicion" post and say, "See! I've been calling him scummy since day 1!"

[PantherPunt]

facepalm. I think Luna is town.

But will be keeping an eye on her.

[PantherPunt]

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

scum aren't looking to gain anything. just cast shade and suspcion that they hope others latch onto

VOTE: alchemist

Wait what the hell i thought you were quoting alchemist u.u

Apologies

I was talking about Alchemist?

Holy shit. I'll give you the do-over. Try again.

[PantherPunt]

Either way imma sheep my townreads for now

Vote: Bella

that's not what I meant by do-over

[PantherPunt]

@Alch, Panth,

I think Panther is town, for obvious reasons. Also, this is similar to their style in their first newbie (lizard, you agree?). I think TTH is town because of the series of posts around tone to Panther - it read as genuine to me. Lizard also might be town because of the relaxed style and the cheekiness, seems odd to come from newb!scum.

On the other end, Maxwell's response to the early wagon on me was o.0, varian's jump on to me, rather than asking questions seems unlike the town-games we've shared and ika's town-blocky thing is making me jumpy.

Luna's entrance is interesting, and the aggression from the slot is more alarming because of the slight pressure their slot was under.

@luna, what were your page 4 reads based off?

The town-blocky thing was indeed very strange for so early in the game. But I don't scum read it....yet. I hope they don't shy away from questioning one another.

[PantherPunt]

@luna, how is that less of a stance than 'gut' and 'I like them'? I'd argue it is substantially more.

@Panth, agreed. Any more thoughts? Response to Luna's vote?

Luna's vote was, and is, terribad.

@Luna

- just FYI, if you want to vote a wagon, you need to give a reason for thinking that person is scum. Like a good reason.
If you are saying that you are sheeping your townreads, then you need to have a good reason for thinking those people are town. Like several good reasons. "Gut" "Feel" "Tone" are hardly good enough to put faith in others' reads and votes. Having empty townreads smacks of scum TMI.

Otherwise, you look

very

scummy if that slot flips town. So, I'll give you another chance to explain your townreads who voted before you on the Bella wagon.

[PantherPunt]

And sparrowbird has gone back to scumlean. Doesn't even check the vote count and puts Bella to L-1 without apparently reading anything.

Your reads are utterly and completely meaningless to me at this time, FYI

[PantherPunt]

Welcome to Shitfest 2015!

Vote: Bellaphant

This is so I have enough time to read shit without it growing so fast I never catch up!

You implied the L-1, but it would be better if you posted the L-1 (as Luna alluded to). I need to catch up too. Look forward to your thoughts.

Bella is at L-1

Changed color from ModBlue. ~~PB

[PantherPunt]

@Panther, what is it about TTH you find scummy? You said you had a bad feeling about her, and even looking back at your exchange I don't get why you're voting her.

Couple things...

My vote stems from Post 33. Complaining about the gamestate when there wasn't anything particularly annoying to complain about feels like an awkward space filler.

UNVOTE:

TTH heart naked voted rather than asking questions. Hmm.

"Hmm." indeed. I'm a little interested in why you would think that's scummy given how Bees went (reference).

This sounded off. Like she already planned to naked vote Bella because she did so in Bees and TTH was town there so obviously she must be town now. The self meta is always a scum red flag for me.

So, I have a good feeling about Flow, Max, and Bella being town to start the game out.

I have a bad feeling about Alchemist, Varian, and TTH.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the IC/SE's from your newbie game were scum.

You can call this a tinfoil if you'd like, but I think she already took a look at my first game and knew that. And she was trying to deflect attention from those that I mentioned with this "guess" of a reason. But in reality, that makes no sense. In that post, I said I had a good feeling about Bella. Bella is an SE/IC. So how is her argument consistent? And it just straight up doesn't make sense that I'm associating a playstyle/posting style with SE/IC players. There is ZERO correlation. Knowing that she attends CMU, I would think she's smart enough to realize there is no correlation. Thus, I believe it was a very weird, manufactured point.

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved? I can't really find the right word right now. :S

I think it's pretty analogous to the role an SE or IC would fill in a newbie game, thus my guess.

"can't find the right word" is flaily as a response to me saying the correlation makes no sense.

To add to it (and this is slightly reachy)...

Well

now

I'm dying to see if I was right or not.

So at this point she implies that she has not in fact checked my first game. Then 3 minutes later...

You turd! I was right!
Graffiti

Vedith called her on it, but I will re-iterate. She was dying to know if she was right. She clicked my name, went to my topics, got to the OP, checked the Alive/Dead spoiler, and posted in this thread with a link to the game that she edited to read "Grafitti." It's tinfoily, I know. But the fact that her "suspicion" that I played a game with SE/IC scum was coincidentally correct, and that she somehow tried to defend herself, Alch, and Varian on the basis that I'm paranoid about a playstyle that is somehow universal among SE/ICs (which is nonsense), while also ignoring that I said I had a town feel on Bella, makes me think she was doing a whole bunch of lying and manufactured/nonsensical dismissing of my post.

If she's scum, it may have been a good play on her part. It was early and if it was another player, they may have dismissed their suspicions and moved on. But she picked the wrong person to try that shit on (if she's scum) because it only made me much more skeptical bc the argument was nonsense. My vote stays and I encourage others to consider this point, despite the fact that it is a bit reachy. I feel it's more valid than any other scumreads. Certainly more valid than the scumread on Bella.

[PantherPunt]

Otherwise, you look

very

scummy if that slot flips town. So, I'll give you another chance to explain your townreads who voted before you on the Bella wagon.

Except you're assuming that I care how I look if Bella flips town, I haven't liked Bella's response, Gut reads is because i have a hard time explaining them, so i call them gut. I don't need a strong reason to townread someone to sheep them, specially with the low info i have on D1, you're assuming too many things, and none of those are scum motivated.
If you had an issue with my vote which had "sheeping townreads" as reason, why dont you have any issue with sparrowbird's vote which never implied any reason at all?

1. I'm assuming you give a damn about lynching scum. Sheeping weak gut townreads does not sound like you give a damn about lynching scum.
2. I've seen your posts this game and they are wholly underwhelming. You either tried to manufacture a false case on me and packpedalled hard when you realized you picked the wrong townie to do it to. Or you seriously had a bad case of "can't-read-English-itis". So I'm going to wait to see what Sparrowbird has to say in the thread before full blown scumreading them, if you don't mind?

[PantherPunt]

If you had an issue with my vote which had "sheeping townreads" as reason, why dont you have any issue with sparrowbird's vote which never implied any reason at all?

Your also putting words in Sparrowbird's mouth. They didn't say they were sheeping townreads. They said they are putting that vote down so the thread slows down and they can catch up.

This is another case of you misrepresenting people and it's going to send you to the noose if you don't stop doing it.

[PantherPunt]

*ebwop: ok you said "no reason at all"
still, there was a reason. so you're still misrepresenting

[PantherPunt]

Confess Bella! Tell us what you know!

what does this mean?

[PantherPunt]

I'm assuming you give a damn about lynching scum. Sheeping weak gut townreads does not sound like you give a damn about lynching scum.

Bella's scum tho, so i don't see how me voting Bella = me not giiving a damn about lynching scum.

wut? I thought you were just sheeping gut townreads? why say it so decidedly?

[PantherPunt]

Confess Bella! Tell us what you know!

what does this mean?

I'm pretty sure it means "Claim"

I didn't ask you. I asked Vedith. Please don't do that again. I've already expressed that I scumread one person asking a question directed at another person. if you come back with "well you didn't say @Vedith" then I'm voting for you.

[PantherPunt]

wut? I thought you were just sheeping gut townreads? why say it so decidedly?

For someone bashing me for my reading comprehension, you sure aren't reading my posts:

I Initially voted Bella because my townreads were voting her, now she's not making her stance wrt me clear, which gives her a lot of openness to switch to either side wherever the wind blows so im happy leaving the vote there for now.

So since she didn't explicitly say she is leaning you town or scum, and because she asked some questions, she is 100% lock scum for you?

[PantherPunt]

**320 should read "one person *answering* a question directed at another person

[PantherPunt]

ugh...ok then.

@Vedith - is that an intent to hammer then? Why else ask for claim?

[PantherPunt]

So since she didn't explicitly say she is leaning you town or scum, and because she asked some questions, she is 100% lock scum for you?

I asked her about her stances, she said my stances were gut and liked posts which were worse than her stances, those arent stances, those are the reasons for my stances, she's avoiding declaring a read on my actions and is waiting to see what happens.

Cannot follow this. Can you try again, please? Maybe a quote or two to help me understand the issue

[PantherPunt]

Bella asked me here where my reads were based off, so i answered:

@luna, what were your page 4 reads based off?

ika was gut.
Alch because i liked his posts.

Then i ask her because she took a pretty much non-commiting stance towards my entrance, so I poke her to take a stance:

Luna's entrance is interesting, and the aggression from the slot is more alarming because of the slight pressure their slot was under.

Interesting in what way?
Alarming in what way?
Take a stance instead of saying words i can't understand what they stance mean.

And this was her reply, which addressed the reason for my reads and calls them "stances" while still not commiting to a stance wrt to my entrance and avoiding the question:

@luna, how is that less of a stance than 'gut' and 'I like them'? I'd argue it is substantially more.

@Panth, agreed. Any more thoughts? Response to Luna's vote?

Her response is clear to me. "Alarming" is not a word used to describe someone you are townleaning.
I would side with her that "gut" and "I like the posts" is substantially more hollow than her calling you "alarming."

Why do you have a complain about her not elaborating, yet you fail to elaborate on your townreads? After she's asked you and after I've asked you to as well?

[PantherPunt]

I've edited post 309. Please make sure you've read the rules.

my bad PB... thanks for not modkilling me

[PantherPunt]

@Luna - Agree as you like, I don't need to answer it if it's out there... It's obvious I wasn't asking her what she's having for dinner tonight...

@Panth - I don't know her meta (only played her Hydra's) well enough to be voting and I haven't really been paying attention to her in the game.
The only thing I will go by is either Bella or Ika is most likely scum.
I've not got a strong enough case to vote yet. But her response will make my mind up.

(To clarify, I am not intent to hammer as of yet).

From what I've learned, it is not good town play to suggest a claim before intent to hammer is declared. People get run up to L-1. It happens, but claiming without intent to hammer only helps scum.

[PantherPunt]

You can call this a tinfoil if you'd like, but I think she already took a look at my first game and knew that. And she was trying to deflect attention from those that I mentioned with this "guess" of a reason. But in reality, that makes no sense. In that post, I said I had a good feeling about Bella. Bella is an SE/IC. So how is her argument consistent? And it just straight up doesn't make sense that I'm associating a playstyle/posting style with SE/IC players. There is ZERO correlation. Knowing that she attends CMU, I would think she's smart enough to realize there is no correlation. Thus, I believe it was a very weird, manufactured point.

Bella is

not

posting like an SE/IC.

She's very much taking shots from the hip and leaving the thought processes relatively opaque.
I think we're working from two different frameworks and you mistrust me because you don't understand me. This is a problem that should correct itself in time.

Can you elaborate on how you, Alch, and Varian

were

posting like an SE/IC, then?

[PantherPunt]

@Luna Fox - so can you give me some elaboration about the "gut" and "I like the posts"

Specifically point to which posts you like about your town reads

[PantherPunt]

Right now, I have scum:

Luna Fox
Alchemist
TTH

Town:

Max
Vedith
Lizard
Bella

slight town leans on

Firebringer and Flow

lack of content ??? on

ika, Varian, SparrowBird

nailed it? nailed it.

[PantherPunt]

ika, well i can't explain gut.
Alch sure:

Fire, what makes Ika Town in your opinion?

Have you ever played a game with ika before?

A few. He was Gif's Tohou 2 game iirc, but that was so long ago I don't remember much. He was in a Matrix-14 game with me and he was SK. There was also HU2 where he hydra'd with Mollie.

Why did you like this post, in particular. Seems rather null to me.

[PantherPunt]

Do you have independent scumreads on all 3?
Because if not I ask you where will you go when I flip town (in case you lynch me first).

sure do.

Well, why would you assume you're being lynched? You don't have any votes atm, do you?

[PantherPunt]

In the future, could you use a darker color than what you used for ika, varian, and sparrow? It's nearly impossible to see on the mafSilver theme.

Sure. I'm on the black skin, so I was unawarez

[PantherPunt]

@Bella: I see you talking in site chat, I hope you are reading the thread.

I actually hope she's reading the thread of the other game I'm in with her.

You only have 1 vote. It's weird to start talking about how you'll flip town........

[PantherPunt]

I actually hope she's reading the thread of the other game I'm in with her.

Don't talk about ongoing games btw.

Thanks. I didn't.

[PantherPunt]

You only have 1 vote. It's weird to start talking about how you'll flip town........

What's weird about it?
You're assuming a whole scumteam already.
Ironically all your scumreads were voting bella at some point (one of them unvoted now).
1) Do you literally think the whole scumteam is pushing Bella?
2) I know one of your scumreads is town (me), I'm asking you a question of where will you go after i flip town, it's not an illogical case.

I'm assuming a whole scumteam? I posted my top 3 scum. As it happens, there are 3 scum in this game. Have you not seen people post their top 3 scum reads? This is making me think I might have nailed it lol.

1)idk...why not?
2)I'll go after whoever else is scummiest to me at that point in time (if you do happen to get lynched, and you do happen to flip town. which I don't believe atm)

[PantherPunt]

might have

[PantherPunt]

@Alch, how do you know so much about the hydra?

Lizard, I like your style.

People who are still voting me - I'm finding the early stages of the game difficult, can you throw some questions my way?

I forgot that Flow was actually confirmed hydra. Move them from slight town lean to ??? in my previous read list.

It is definitely weird an oddly coincidental that Alch "found" the hyrda offiste.

Why have none of the Bella voters taken her up on this and asked a question? Or have I missed them?

[PantherPunt]

Right now, I have scum:

Luna Fox
Alchemist
TTH

Town:

Max
Vedith
Lizard
Bella

slight town leans on

Firebringer and Flow

lack of content ??? on

ika, Varian, SparrowBird

nailed it? nailed it.

[/spoiler]
How exactly is Lizard and Vedith town? Also Bella?
Bella has done pretty much nothing.
So has Lizard and Vedith (well vedith is contributing more I guess)
Your town judgements are bad!

lol earlier it was my scumreads are bad with the Alch vote. now my town reads are bad, too. oh Firebringer, we will have fun I think.
it's a read list. I've played a game with Lizard, and I like her for town so far. Bella's stated reasons echo my own unstated reasons.
I like Bella mainly because my scummier reads all voted for her, and I haven't had a single problem with her posts that others are "super weirded" out by.
Vedith's contributions have seemed townie.

If you want me to quote stuff for townreads, I will. But that's kind of annoying.
Why are TTH and Lizard your top scumreads?

[PantherPunt]

spoiler failllllllll - obvious scumtell

[PantherPunt]

Do you have independent scumreads on all 3?
Because if not I ask you where will you go when I flip town (in case you lynch me first).

Seemed worried before when you had 1 vote. And seemed awfully worried about associatives too. Weird.

[PantherPunt]

"If people somehow buy what the scum are saying"

But you're town reading me now. Who is the "scum" you're referring to? Just Bella?

[PantherPunt]

I'd vote you now but I wanna wait for tth to answer my last questions posed toward her

[PantherPunt]

378 is valid. Asking for a claim without intent to hammer looks like role fishing. You didn't have to jump in and answer my question to vedith but you did. That's on you.

That's the reason for your full blown scumread? 378?

[PantherPunt]

So alch, who on Bella's wagon (at any point now or earlier) are you scum reading? If you've come to that conclusion, I hope you can justify it with a read on someone

[PantherPunt]

So alch, who on Bella's wagon (at any point now or earlier) are you scum reading? If you've come to that conclusion, I hope you can justify it with a read on someone

Luna and Sparrow. It would be odd if all 3 scum were interacting this way, but I've seen early distancing before. At this point, I'm more confident in the scumread on Sparrow than Luna, but I still have a scumread on her.

@alch, wrt sparrow- Ive double voted just because I forgot I had already laid my vote..genuinely, as town. Anything outside of that? Jc. That can definitely be a disingenuous derpclear attempt, but I was wondering if I may have missed anything else that you thought could be scummy.

[PantherPunt]

Cool to know

why

that you're scumreading me, but at least i'd like to know why.

EBWODP

I'd be more interested in hearing someone's case why you're townie, tbh

[PantherPunt]

ugh...ok then.

@Vedith - is that an intent to hammer then? Why else ask for claim?

Panther's whole exchange with Luna makes them lean scum to me. This post (made after Vedith confirmed Luna's assumption being right,

and Panther had to stop using it as a point of attack) looks like 'shit, I can't push that anymore'?

Actually, multiple times I saw Luna responding to Panther in an honest way

and Panther either pushing differently (i was really asking you

this

or moving on to something else.

I'd thought I grabbed the posts but I guess not. I just remember not liking Panther during the discussion.

Well that's one way to read that. But the "ugh...ok" was in response to Vedith saying "well you didn't say @Vedith so it could have been construed as a question to everyone".

If you want to take my aggression for scuminess, I can't stop you. Some people just read aggressive play as scummy. I guess I would just tell you to pay more attention to my reads, votes, etc. The pushes in and of themselves are for me to be able to make reads and subsequently, votes.

So alch, who on Bella's wagon (at any point now or earlier) are you scum reading? If you've come to that conclusion, I hope you can justify it with a read on someone

Luna and Sparrow. It would be odd if all 3 scum were interacting this way, but I've seen early distancing before. At this point, I'm more confident in the scumread on Sparrow than Luna, but I still have a scumread on her.

@alch, wrt sparrow- Ive double voted just because I forgot I had already laid my vote..genuinely, as town. Anything outside of that? Jc. That can definitely be a disingenuous derpclear attempt, but I was wondering if I may have missed anything else that you thought could be scummy.

Continues to defend sparrow. Why?

If you want to construe it as defense of Sparrow, I guess I can see that skepticism. It really was me saying that Sparrow was still null for me because I needed to see more. The vote park wasn't enough for me to scumlean. You can verify this in my readlist, but it's certainly not me saying I think Sparrow is town. It's me saying a Sparrow lynch will be pretty void of info, so I'd like to see more from Sparrow.

pedit- I like the color use for responding to multiple points. Hadn't previously considered it until ppl here started posting in color with regularity.

[PantherPunt]

VOTE: tth for reasons above, just hate phone voting.

Ika, your vote is bad. Come find scum with me.

its ont bad when you have ignored me all this time. only now you have mentioned me. whats up with that?

So I just ISO'd you ika. This question by you is kind of weird. You ask Bella why she has ignored you up to that point. In looking at your ISO, I think it's because all of your posts to that point were jokes and null fluff. If you can point out one post that you think should have made Bella mention you, please do. Just a weird thing to say since you hadn't really contributed to game solving at all to that point.

i'm not sure it was TvT, ika. But feel free to talk with someone if you'd like a more productive discussion to happen.

i dont really need one, i already got a sloic enough town bloc right now

And I'm going to go ahead and say you still haven't really contributed to game solving. I know you said you find it easier to PoE town reads early in the game, but at some point, you have to have a scum read on somebody, no? This is why I still have you as null. Your town reads don't have any explanation behind them. And you haven't really made a scumread that I can see (I mean you voted Bella, but come on, that was just the easy thing to do).

I don't know your playstyle, but it's odd to see someone make it to post 465 while saying almost nothing whatsoever.

im using a mixture of both.

normally whn i town read someone i jsut kinda dont quesiton them anymore and put them on a "ok your town i dont need ot hunt you anymore"

So when do you question someone and not put them in the town bucket? Looking forward to it.

I encourage others to ISO ika and tell me if I'm missing this person actually trying to solve the game. Seems pretty content to just sit back while there is no suspicion on them and casually throw town reads about.

[PantherPunt]

lol @Lizard. Extra aggressive. I gotta look back at Graffiti now bc I don't remember this level of aggression and it's beginning to sketch me out

[PantherPunt]

skim of Graffiti ISO checks out. Still leaning town on Lizard atm

[PantherPunt]

@Ika, shut up about your townblock. This just seems like a cop-out now. All you've done so far is say you're townreading X and leaving it there. If you don't want to play the game, just replace.

actually after rereading just this page, I find Lizard's comment to be a piggyback/parrot of my post. It was unnecessary. Lizard loses townlean and goes into ???/null

@Lizard - let me see you DO WORK

[PantherPunt]

and sorry to be clogging up thread. I'll probably pull back on the throttle big time until Monday. again, something I blame on playing 12 hour day phases and being used to posting 40-100x per IRL day

[PantherPunt]

one more thing - if @Flow is actually a 4 person Hydra - wtf? let's see some activity from you folks

[PantherPunt]

Tbh I think there is a high chance it was a joke about the hydra

See:

hardclaim 4 headed bulletproof lynchproof quintuplevoting vigilante cop with a medical degree hydra

This is not a role in Pick Your Poison, but would mafia know this? I think this is called WIFOM

It's just us saying we're a 4-headed hydra, with personality added.

This slot is indeed a hydra, and at least 2 of the heads are experienced Town of Salem players (I should have realized the ToS background by the Lenny face). If these folks are Town we're probably in good hands.

It weirded me out that Alch confirmed it was a hyrda. Awfully (and self-admitted, tbf) coincidental explanation when he gives it. 193, 195, 225

[PantherPunt]

You can call this a tinfoil if you'd like, but I think she already took a look at my first game and knew that. And she was trying to deflect attention from those that I mentioned with this "guess" of a reason. But in reality, that makes no sense. In that post, I said I had a good feeling about Bella. Bella is an SE/IC. So how is her argument consistent? And it just straight up doesn't make sense that I'm associating a playstyle/posting style with SE/IC players. There is ZERO correlation. Knowing that she attends CMU, I would think she's smart enough to realize there is no correlation. Thus, I believe it was a very weird, manufactured point.

Bella is

not

posting like an SE/IC.

She's very much taking shots from the hip and leaving the thought processes relatively opaque.
I think we're working from two different frameworks and you mistrust me because you don't understand me. This is a problem that should correct itself in time.

Can you elaborate on how you, Alch, and Varian

were

posting like an SE/IC, then?

@TTH - I would like an answer here. What's posts of yours at that point in the game were indicative of an experienced player?

TTH is a good vote folks. Someone tell me why they have a townread on her. Please.

[PantherPunt]

@Panther, what is it about TTH you find scummy? You said you had a bad feeling about her, and even looking back at your exchange I don't get why you're voting her.

@Alch - why do you read TTH as town?

[PantherPunt]

@Panther, what is it about TTH you find scummy? You said you had a bad feeling about her, and even looking back at your exchange I don't get why you're voting her.

@Alch - why do you read TTH as town?

Generally, she's

seeing a lot of the same things I'm seeing

, and I take that to be a pretty good sign. I haven't seen much from the slot I would consider scummy.

@Alch
I have to push you on this. Her contribution to scumhunting has been putrid.

Here's what I've gathered that she "is seeing:"
Bella being weird (that I don't get at all)
I'm being a paranoid little newb (I'm not paranoid, and I'm not a newb)

Her biggest post of the game was mostly a defense post in response to me pushing her about arguments that I consider COMPLETELY NONSENSICAL. And she tacked on a little Alch defense at the end.

If she's seeing what you're seeing,:
Do you see me as getting scumvibes from TTH, Varian, and you to start the game because I'm somehow scarred by SE/ICs? And you agree that TTH, Varian, and you are the embodiment of SE/IC play? And thus her opinion is justified?

[PantherPunt]

TTH is scum here folks. As soon as I started turning up the heat on her, she disappeared from the game. Popped back in to place a terribly opportunistic vote on the Lizard wagon because she "liked the composition of the wagon" (I hate that reason for a vote on D1. Most reads are pretty weak and often wrong on day 1, or these games would be much shorter. Popping in to sheep a vote is BAD).

Maybe she's busy, maybe she's just posting every 48 hours now so she can stay under the radar for the rest of D1. Somebody help me get this wagon going so we can make TTH talk!!

[PantherPunt]

Hello. PP vs LF looks like classic tvt that logs up the thread. Alchemist is reasonable and seems town. So there are three townreads while I catch up!
WHAT, THERE'S AN L-1?

VOTE: BELLA

<3 alts

Sparrowbird
ika
Firebringer
Vedith

PantherPunt
Luna Fox
Flow Alpha
TellTaleHeart

Alchemist21
MaxwellPuckett

Lizard_Buttock
Shiro

Bellaphant

What plummeted Alchemist from being one of your three initial townreads, all the way down to that yellow position?

[PantherPunt]

@Panther, what is it about TTH you find scummy? You said you had a bad feeling about her, and even looking back at your exchange I don't get why you're voting her.

@Alch - why do you read TTH as town?

Generally, she's

seeing a lot of the same things I'm seeing

, and I take that to be a pretty good sign. I haven't seen much from the slot I would consider scummy.

@Alch
I have to push you on this. Her contribution to scumhunting has been putrid.

Here's what I've gathered that she "is seeing:"
Bella being weird (that I don't get at all)
I'm being a paranoid little newb (I'm not paranoid, and I'm not a newb)

Her biggest post of the game was mostly a defense post in response to me pushing her about arguments that I consider COMPLETELY NONSENSICAL. And she tacked on a little Alch defense at the end.

If she's seeing what you're seeing,:
Do you see me as getting scumvibes from TTH, Varian, and you to start the game because I'm somehow scarred by SE/ICs? And you agree that TTH, Varian, and you are the embodiment of SE/IC play? And thus her opinion is justified?

Well she was right about your IC being scum in your Newbie and could relate to the experience, so I would say the opinion is justified. I can't really say if the three of us looked like IC's since I've never actually played a Newbie game myself.

Well the whole reason I have a problem with her is that she dismissed my suspicion of her (and you) because somehow it relates to me being prone to think SE/IC's are scum.

The bigger problem I had after that is because the justification is nonsensical. TTH and you entered the thread just like anybody might. There was no indication that it was a *typical* experienced player interest. And calling herself a *discussion leader* is bunk because she hasn't discussed a damn thing besides throw shade at Bella.

TTH is scum. There is no town motivation to dismiss my suspicions with a pulled-out-your-arse reason why my suspicions aren't valid.

[PantherPunt]

*it was a typical experienced player

entrance

[PantherPunt]

Right now, I have scum:

Luna Fox

Alchemist
TTH
SparrowBird

Town:

Max
Luna Fox
Vedith
Bella
SilverJaws(Lizard)

slight town leans on

Shiro(Varian), Firebringer,

Flow

lack of content

null/??? on

ika, Flow,

Varian

,

SparrowBird

Revision to move Luna Fox into my town pile. I liked all of our exchanges after she settled into the game a bit. And her contributions since this time have seemed very town motivated to me.
I'd probably replace that scum slot with Sparrowbird.

I like the TTH lynch the most, if you all haven't gathered that yet by my pleading to get that counterwagon going (counter to Sparrowbird would be ideal).

I'm not interested in a SilverJaws fka Lizard lynch, today.

[PantherPunt]

Panther's actually making me rethink my TTH read.

good I hope my other stronger townreads are also at least willing to consider giving her a reread and tell me if it looks like a town player interested in hunting and lynching scum. or someone just looking to deflect attention from themselves and skate through D1.

@Bella
@Max
@Vedith

[PantherPunt]

Sorry, guys. There is not one person townreading me. Everyone is scumreading me.
If that rings no alarm bells of impending mislynch, I'd rather we lynched town today than, say, tommorow, or the day after.

Vote: Sparrowbird

My read on Alchemist has gone into null because I feel scum movitation in spamming up the thread and think Panther and Luna are far more towny than Alchemist21.

Then why not take me up on my plead for a TTH wagon? I hate the self-vote. You say it's town motivated, but if you're town, you're the ONE person who should know it. As town, you should never knowingly vote town. So please take that vote off of yourself. A self-vote does not make you look more town.

I'm proposing you and TTH as wagons. If you're town as you say you are, then this should be ok and your vote naturally be on TTH, at least out of self preservation.
If you're scum, then *handsup* I don't care what you do

[PantherPunt]

Sorry, guys. There is not one person townreading me. Everyone is scumreading me.
If that rings no alarm bells of impending mislynch, I'd rather we lynched town today than, say, tommorow, or the day after.

Vote: Sparrowbird

No one is townreading you because you haven't contributed. You posted a "gut" read list but multiple people asked for some reasoning behind your reads and you've failed to give any.

Maybe a little contribution, eh?

If you're an alt, I imagine you understand why nobody is townreading you atm. I can't wrap my mind around your self vote.

[PantherPunt]

I would prefer to lynch Silverjaws than TTH.

Good start. Now some reasons and you'll be on your way to being a clearer read.

[PantherPunt]

I will be mislynched.
It will happen.

Nobody is townreading me.
The damage is better to happen d1 than later on.

Unvote

Talk this through with me. I don't see a logical fallacy.
If there was ANYONE townreading me, I wouldn't do the selfvote, but everybody is scumreading me. My lynch is inevitable.

The logical fallacy is that you WILL be mislynched. You can't possibly know that. The only way to prevent that, which is in town's best interest if you are, in fact, town is to post your thoughts on other players. in other words, DO SOMETHING

[PantherPunt]

Sorry, guys. There is not one person townreading me. Everyone is scumreading me.
If that rings no alarm bells of impending mislynch, I'd rather we lynched town today than, say, tommorow, or the day after.

Vote: Sparrowbird

No one is townreading you because you haven't contributed. You posted a "gut" read list but multiple people asked for some reasoning behind your reads and you've failed to give any.

Maybe a little contribution, eh?

If you're an alt, I imagine you understand why nobody is townreading you atm. I can't wrap my mind around your self vote.

I've been trying to contribute, but this has gone too long.
I really don't see why I wouldn't be lynched eventually.
Also, please do not spam up the thread and then mock someone for "not contributing"
Pedit: Silverjaws has been throwing shade way too much.

Vote: Silverjaws

Pedit: Nobody is defending me, so it's very likely. Exaggeration, not a fallacy.
Also I

have been planning to release reads into our thread.

Lynching me doesn't advance the town's wincon, no, but it hurts it less than me being a mislynch in a situation when we need to lynch scum.

If you think I'm mocking you, I apologize. I was just stating the facts. You've been around longer than me and you have a handful of posts with no support to back your reads.
I would love to see the reads you're planning to release.
Do you think TTH is town? Or scum but think SilverJaws is just a greater likelihood of being scum?

[PantherPunt]

tinfoil that SparrowBird is scum and is trying to get himself lynched before I can get people to see TTH as scum. hoping scum can NK me, get my voice out of this conversation, and have a better likelihood of TTH surviving longer. recanting self-vote and putting SilverJaws at L-1 does nothing to derail this theory

TTH and SparrowBird look like excellent competing wagons.

[PantherPunt]

Interesting to note, Sparrow/Mario keep avoiding mentioning anything related to why they wouldn't prefer to lynch TTH over Silver, despite being asked multiple times by panther.

There are more scummy players.

Can you help me out and give some semblance of support for any of your reads? I don't understand why you keep refusing to do so, tbh. I mean- unless you are scum and are trying to avoid spewing your team since others have meta on you.

[PantherPunt]

Apart from the self vote, he's not playing different to an extent.
I've been in a few games with him now and read a few others of his. His scum is more pushy/involved.

I'm sorry but how have you seen enough to even know that?

Prior to the selfvote bull and altswitch, all he had done is scumleaned Joram (now Luna) based on 1-game meta, voteparked on Bella L-1 to "catch up," and posted a reads list that has yet to have one reason of backup with it.

You're saying the lack of involvement makes you think he's not scum? After he already admitted that he was going to try something new (hmmm...maybe that's lurking as scum?)
Half with posts start with "Sorry..." (minor scumtell for me) and nothing in the way of reads or takes on the game really even exists to be a basis to townread him.

And while I keep asking for some reason for reads (as others have asked him before), he keeps dodging giving an answer.

[PantherPunt]

inb4 TTH shows up right at her 48 hour prod dodge. / inb4 TTH requests replacement

[PantherPunt]

I've been trying to contribute, but this has gone too long.
I really don't see why I wouldn't be lynched eventually.
Also, please do not spam up the thread and then mock someone for "not contributing"

Btw, I haven't been spamming the thread. Spamming is posting content-less things to obfuscate the game. I've been driving the game solve.
Saying I was mocking you is blatant AtE.

I'm going to look through your games now. I bet I see town!Mario giving some semblance of justification for reads.

[PantherPunt]

Because as I said, when he's scum he is pushy and involved... When he's town he sits back a lot.
I can draw a picture if that helps?

Where do you factor in that he admits to have been intentionally trying something different than his usual meta? Draw me that picture, and don't leave out that part. Thanks!

[PantherPunt]

Alt. Yes. The looking through mario!town is so I can judge your going-forward posts. I'm not judging your previous posts on your meta. I just got done telling Vedith that we can't look at your previous posts to read your alignment because of the alt.

SETTLE DOWN AND STOP YELLING DUDE. I don't have infinite free time either. All I've asked you to do is give some justification for your reads. I'm glad you've BEGUN to do that.

It's AtE because saying I "mocked" you is a misrep and I think it's meant to garner pity. You shan't have it.

[PantherPunt]

town!Mario* ofc

[PantherPunt]

The reason I made a fucking alt is that I'm fucking tired of meta.
And my reads are actually mostly gut. Silverjaws has slanged mud at everyone, so I'm scumreading him. You and Luna reads as classic TvT to me. Ika is ika and he basically has an activity tell that is basically never broken. I see scum movitation in clogging up the thread, and Alchemist is the only one apart from you and Luna, who are townreads, to do that. Plus Alchemist's post 435 almost seems like guilt/fustration that he helped make his buddy replace out.
Apart from that, yeah, mostly gut. (And gut adds to the reads I've mentioned anyway.)

Silverjaws slanged mud everywhere? Or wanted to publish what he found scummy for the best interest of the town in case he got hammered anyways & would flip town? Idk at this point, but I lean to him not being scum. At least I'm not interested in voting for him today.
Alch started out as a gut scumread for me too, and he hasn't done anything to make me feel like he's town. So we see eye to eye there.

You think my case against TTH is no good? You are gut townreading that slot from what I can tell.

Glad to have you engaged. Sorry it took you freaking out to get there.

[PantherPunt]

I got my prod. My life picked up after this game started, unfortunately. Sad, because I was looking forward to this game.
If I still can't do anything by tonight I'll go ahead and request replacement. I only want to do that as a last resort.

Sorry to hear you're so busy. Too bad you didn't have time to check in this game on Sunday when you spent 1 hour+ on Micro 523 and Persona 4 Mafia

[PantherPunt]

So, someone want to post intent to hammer and request a claim pls?

Kind of getting annoyed with Silver right now.

I'd call you scummy if it wasn't idiotic for scum to repeatedly ask for a claim when nobody has intent. So since I assume you're not an idiot, you must be town.

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler: Wagon Progressions

Votecount 1.04

Bellaphant - 4 - TellTaleHeart, Varian-, ika, Alchemist21
JoramvanVugt - 1 - Flow Alpha
PantherPunt - 1 - Firebringer
TellTaleHeart - 1 - PantherPunt
Varian- - 1 - MaxwellPuckett
Vedith - 1 - JoramvanVugt

Not Voting: Sparrowbird, Vedith, Lizard_Buttock, Bellaphant

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Votecount 1.06

Bellaphant - 5 - TellTaleHeart, Varian-, ika, Alchemist21, Luna Fox
Luna Fox- 1 - Flow Alpha
PantherPunt - 1 - Firebringer
TellTaleHeart - 1 - PantherPunt
Varian- - 1 - MaxwellPuckett

Not Voting: Sparrowbird, Vedith, Lizard_Buttock, Bellaphant

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Votecount 1.07

Bellaphant - 5 - Varian-, ika, Alchemist21, Luna Fox, Sparrowbird
Luna Fox- 2 - Flow Alpha, Bellaphant
Lizard_Buttock - 1 - Firebringer
TellTaleHeart - 1 - PantherPunt
Varian- - 1 - MaxwellPuckett
Vedith - 1 - Lizard_Buttock

Not Voting: Vedith, TellTaleHeart

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Votecount 1.08

Bellaphant - 4 - Shiro, ika, Alchemist21, Sparrowbird
Luna Fox- 2 - Flow Alpha, Bellaphant
Lizard_Buttock - 1 - Firebringer
Sparrowbird - 1 - Luna Fox
TellTaleHeart - 1 - PantherPunt
Shiro - 1 - MaxwellPuckett
Vedith - 1 - Lizard_Buttock

Not Voting: TellTaleHeart, Vedith

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Votecount 1.09

Lizard_Buttock - 5 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, Luna Fox
Bellaphant - 2 - Alchemist21, Sparrowbird
Luna Fox- 2 - Flow Alpha, Bellaphant
Sparrowbird - 1 - MaxwellPuckett
TellTaleHeart - 1 - PantherPunt
Vedith - 1 - Lizard_Buttock

Not Voting: TellTaleHeart

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Just as a note (totally not binding), if you're posting in color, you may want to use the VOTE: tag, or bold your vote in black. I almost missed a purple vote.

Votecount 1.10

Silverjaws - 5 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, TellTaleHeart
Bellaphant - 2 - Alchemist21, Sparrowbird
TellTaleHeart - 2 - PantherPunt, Silverjaws
Luna Fox- 1 - Flow Alpha
Sparrowbird - 1 - MaxwellPuckett

Not Voting: Bellaphant, Luna Fox

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Votecount 1.11

Silverjaws - 5 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, TellTaleHeart
Sparrowbird - 3 - MaxwellPuckett, Luna Fox, Alchemist21
TellTaleHeart - 2 - PantherPunt, Silverjaws
Bellaphant - 1 - Sparrowbird
Luna Fox- 1 - Flow Alpha

Not Voting: Bellaphant

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Votecount 1.12

L-1 Silverjaws - 6 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, TellTaleHeart, MarioManiac4
TellTaleHeart - 3 - PantherPunt, Silverjaws, Luna Fox
MarioManiac4 - 2 - MaxwellPuckett, Alchemist21
Luna Fox- 1 - Flow Alpha

Not Voting: Bellaphant

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Votecount 1.13

L-1 Silverjaws - 6 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, TellTaleHeart, MarioManiac4
TellTaleHeart - 4 - PantherPunt, Silverjaws, Luna Fox, MaxwellPuckett
Luna Fox- 1 - Flow Alpha
MarioManiac4 - 1 - Alchemist21

Not Voting: Bellaphant

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

(For my own [later] reference in self-ISO) to see how the Bella wagon unloaded and the Lizard/Silverjaws wagon filled up and then sat stagnant. Also interested in ISO-ing the vote parkers to see just how much scumhunting they are doing or if they are along for the thread consensus ride.

[PantherPunt]

The TTH wagon overall is bad. Panther's vote stems from a paranoia that TTH even sourced back to their Newbie game, and I don't know whynp that's suspicous to anyone. SilverJaws took that reasoning and ran with it. Luna and Max just sheeped Panther onto the wagon, and from what I can tell Max isn't even scumreading her, just thinks she hasn't been "terrible Towny."

Well since TTH couldn't explain how my vote stems from paranoia, maybe

you

can, since you

agree

. Why does my suspicion of her correlate to the fact that I had scum IC/SE in my first newbie game? Why/how is there any correlation?
To that point in the game, these were her posts:

Spoiler: All TTH posts prior to me saying I had a bad feeling about her

Hi Alch, ika, Bella! ^_^/~

VOTE: Bella

My vote stems from Post 33. Complaining about the gamestate when there wasn't anything particularly annoying to complain about feels like an awkward space filler.

UNVOTE:

TTH heart naked voted rather than asking questions. Hmm.

"Hmm." indeed. I'm a little interested in why you would think that's scummy given how Bees went (reference).

Fire, what makes Ika Town in your opinion?

Have you ever played a game with ika before?

:S

Bella, why are you being super weird?

@tth: Define 'Super weird'.

She didn't directly acknowledge what I brought up about Bees! but did indirectly (and vaguely) concede that I tend to "votes [her] within a few rl days of the thread opening." It's a point that doesn't really have any relevance and certainly doesn't reveal anything about why she's scum reading me for my vote. The preceding sentence about Alchemist (also with little relevance to the current discussion) just makes it come off as trying to force a casual tone.

Hi ika! ^_^

All things considered, I'm doing OK. With the school year starting there's tons of stuff to do so I guess I can never say I'm bored. XD

VOTE: JoramvanVught

Unless I get some concrete proof he makes these kinds of commets as Town, I think this is the most likely to turn up scum atm.

Did a little stalking on this and he doesn't have any completed games and I'm working from the assumption that he's a newbie. What, specifically, about Joram is bothersome to you?

P-edit: See my previous post about him. However, you say he has no completed games and Lizard said he has 2 Town games... I need to see what's going on here.

I'm not counting dopey marathon games. -.-

X/

I saw "Day 5" in the thread title and assumed it was still ongoing...

It is way too late at night for me to be doing this.

so now the town block has {me, alch, tth and varian}

tth/varian: do you guys want to reject or add players?

pedit: its never too late

Add me on that list and you're set!

Do you have any scum reads?

Where does she look like a "prototypical" (if there is such a thing) SE/IC player who is also a "discussion leader" (in her own words)?


I agree that SilverJaws took the reasoning that I voiced, but he went into greater depth and explained it better and expounded upon it. Of course they are 99/100 NOT both scum in this case, but I HIGHLY doubt that they are both town. If the hammer on SilverJaws is going to happen, I can't stop it. And if he flips scum, you can give me a big fat "I TOLD YOU SO" but based on how these stagnant wagons have been sitting, I'd bet SilverJaws flips town.

Saying TTH would likely, for strategic purposes, be more involved as scum is not enough to justify a town read.

[PantherPunt]

I got my prod. My life picked up after this game started, unfortunately. Sad, because I was looking forward to this game.
If I still can't do anything by tonight I'll go ahead and request replacement. I only want to do that as a last resort.

Sorry to hear you're so busy. Too bad you didn't have time to check in this game on Sunday when you spent 1 hour+ on Micro 523 and Persona 4 Mafia

I really hate it when people say "You were on this game, but didn't post here"... Depending what you are doing on a game it can easily take an hour or so of your time. If you have limited time you can't always catch up in every game. That's my opinion on it anyway.

Ya, ya, ya. It's not a locktell, ldo. Good thing I asked her a bunch of questions about her dismissal of my suspicion that she gave up on answering, though.

[PantherPunt]

Seven days left to deadline so I'll start with a content dump first. Lizard was run up essentially for being a weak and awkward player. I want to give town the chance to read me first before deciding if they want a claim.

I don't understand how TellTaleHeart has been leading wagons let alone not garner much suspicion at all. The number of social psychology tactics she's using would put a police interrogator to shame.

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved?

This deserves votes.

Instead of asking PantherPunt what he found scummy about Alchemist, Varian and herself

, she does this dodge and deflect move where in one stroke:
1. She belittles him, portraying him as a wild, paranoid player suspicious of the "discussion leaders" which trivializes his suspicion and puts him in a box where he is treated as a wide-eyed newbie that's not taken seriously.
2. Subtly portrays herself as something positive (a "discussion leader").

@Shiro - like I already said, SilverJaws did expound upon a point that I made, but I think his point was valid because it addressed something I didn't.

SilverJaws points out that TTH doesn't even seem interested in what I found scummy. Instead, just dismisses me completely.

I've found that town (and scum in many cases) who are called scummy are inclined to ask for a reason and in turn respond to why those reasons might not be valid by explaining thought processes or motives behind posts that were called scummy. Furthermore, if the reasons are TRULY lacking in merit, they may even voice a scumread on the person who was suspicious of them. Because town would be leery of people trying to cast shade on them for bs reasoning.

I've found that scum (and rarely every town) who are called scummy just dismiss it without wanting to know more about that player's thoughts. It's a ploy to divert attention from themselves.

For all those loudly scumreading SilverJaws, can you tell me what the scum-case is? BEYOND calling 5 people's posts into question upon entrance? If that's the entirety of the case (which he has responded to and explained) then I think it's pretty lousy.

[PantherPunt]

@Bella - why are you not voting anywhere?

[PantherPunt]

You're right this is stalling, Silver flipping scum would also hint towards a TTH town, since she's his main scumread, i just dont think we'd get much info if he flips town and im not very sure he'll flip scum.

There's something I noticed in one of his posts that makes me believe he's more likely scum. I need an answer from him to 687 to be sure of it. Of course who knows when that answer will come and if he's scum he could just lie, but I think I already know what the true answer is and I just want to hear it from him.

We both know what the true answer is. He'd have to be really dumb to lie to you at this point in time regardless of alignment, now that it's had so much attention brought to it.

[PantherPunt]

I hear you on the Lizard thing. I played with her in my first newbie lobby game and I pushed for her lynch D1 because she looked scummy and inconsistent to me. She flipped town. I started the game thinking she was town, but then pulled that back to null after she parroted me right before the replace-out. Maybe she thought it was same old story all over again where folks finds her scummy and she just didn't want to be a part of it anymore (still weird bc there was no REAL pressure on her at that point).

It is actually true that she /out'ed from the queue, so I can kind of believe that she never really wanted to play this game to begin with.

WRT disappearing, it sounds like you're describing TTH as much as SilverJaws. People were quick to jump to TTH's defense about having things going on IRL and the lack of activity being null (Alch even called it townie). So we can't treat them differently. It's either scummy or it's null. People who want it both ways look fishy to me. Which is why I asked if there was a case on Silver outside of the "mudslinging"

[PantherPunt]

Hey Bellaphant!

Also, hey Mario, and PantherPunt LOL. It's a small world after all. I have my eye on you, PantherPunt.

Gotta be Plotti Plot? no?

[PantherPunt]

unless someone from MafiaUniverse, then it could be a number of people

[PantherPunt]

The TTH wagon overall is bad. Panther's vote stems from a paranoia that TTH even sourced back to their Newbie game, and I don't know whynp that's suspicous to anyone. SilverJaws took that reasoning and ran with it. Luna and Max just sheeped Panther onto the wagon, and from what I can tell Max isn't even scumreading her, just thinks she hasn't been "terrible Towny."

Well since TTH couldn't explain how my vote stems from paranoia, maybe

you

can, since you

agree

. Why does my suspicion of her correlate to the fact that I had scum IC/SE in my first newbie game? Why/how is there any correlation?
To that point in the game, these were her posts:

Spoiler: All TTH posts prior to me saying I had a bad feeling about her

Hi Alch, ika, Bella! ^_^/~

VOTE: Bella

My vote stems from Post 33. Complaining about the gamestate when there wasn't anything particularly annoying to complain about feels like an awkward space filler.

UNVOTE:

TTH heart naked voted rather than asking questions. Hmm.

"Hmm." indeed. I'm a little interested in why you would think that's scummy given how Bees went (reference).

Fire, what makes Ika Town in your opinion?

Have you ever played a game with ika before?

:S

Bella, why are you being super weird?

@tth: Define 'Super weird'.

She didn't directly acknowledge what I brought up about Bees! but did indirectly (and vaguely) concede that I tend to "votes [her] within a few rl days of the thread opening." It's a point that doesn't really have any relevance and certainly doesn't reveal anything about why she's scum reading me for my vote. The preceding sentence about Alchemist (also with little relevance to the current discussion) just makes it come off as trying to force a casual tone.

Hi ika! ^_^

All things considered, I'm doing OK. With the school year starting there's tons of stuff to do so I guess I can never say I'm bored. XD

VOTE: JoramvanVught

Unless I get some concrete proof he makes these kinds of commets as Town, I think this is the most likely to turn up scum atm.

Did a little stalking on this and he doesn't have any completed games and I'm working from the assumption that he's a newbie. What, specifically, about Joram is bothersome to you?

P-edit: See my previous post about him. However, you say he has no completed games and Lizard said he has 2 Town games... I need to see what's going on here.

I'm not counting dopey marathon games. -.-

X/

I saw "Day 5" in the thread title and assumed it was still ongoing...

It is way too late at night for me to be doing this.

so now the town block has {me, alch, tth and varian}

tth/varian: do you guys want to reject or add players?

pedit: its never too late

Add me on that list and you're set!

Do you have any scum reads?

Where does she look like a "prototypical" (if there is such a thing) SE/IC player who is also a "discussion leader" (in her own words)?


I agree that SilverJaws took the reasoning that I voiced, but he went into greater depth and explained it better and expounded upon it. Of course they are 99/100 NOT both scum in this case, but I HIGHLY doubt that they are both town. If the hammer on SilverJaws is going to happen, I can't stop it. And if he flips scum, you can give me a big fat "I TOLD YOU SO" but based on how these stagnant wagons have been sitting, I'd bet SilverJaws flips town.

Saying TTH would likely, for strategic purposes, be more involved as scum is not enough to justify a town read.

@Panther, it makes sense if TTH thought you were scumreading people that looked like IC's because of your past experience. People who had your experience may mistake traits characteristic of experienced players with traits of scum, because those characteristics are what they recognize. I can't really tell you what those characteristics are specifically, as I've never played a Newbie game myself. If TTH was in the same situation in the past, then I trust her judgement on the matter.

Since you asked, I'll just say it about SilverJaws. I'm pretty sure he's another alt, and he should know that it's good scumhunting form to try to have as many scumreads as there are scum in the game, so when he tries to justify suspecting 5 people vs. 3 because "scum can tailor their reads," it looks like someone who would just rather hold onto suspicion on as many people as possible.

Well you skirted the issue that I take. The issue I take is that she--TTH, you, and varian didn't *look like* any particular type of player. You had all posted next to nothing so how could it already look like some characterization? If she can't explain that logically (and she has failed to multiple times), then it was a fake/fabricated statement on her part that would only come from a scum-motivated place.

I'm pretty sure he's an alt or just has experience offsite, because of join date and the quality of posts. And I am suspicious of probably about 5 people. I think it's valid to scumread more than the set of scum so you can see how they react/how others in the thread react. You calling that bad form is a foreign idea to me. Do you see why it could be productive for town?
My mind isn't made up on SilverJaws... I just really don't like them for a lynch today. It's a very thin reason to have someone at L-1 (even in conjunction with Lizard's awkward exit).

[PantherPunt]

I also disagree with your statement that we had posted next to nothing, as TTH and myself had posted quite a bit by the time you came in.

Next to nothing was a relative term there. Sorry I didn't detail that. Next to nothing from the standpoint of her assertion that you/her were "experienced-looking" or "town leader." Just an asinine assertion on her part and her inability to elaborate on it is pretty cut and dry.

And actually ya SilverJaws must be an alt to come into a non-newbie game I guess. Doubt he will say his main, though. Or would have played on that.

[PantherPunt]

@Performer I can't tell if you're being vague because you're truly a performer and are bs'ing me. Or if you're being vague so only I can figure out who you are. But based on what you said you could be a few people, so if it's the latter, one more hint please.

[PantherPunt]

Nvm performer I don't care who you are. I may know. I may not. But whatever the play style is you are going to emulate, do me a favor and make sure it's a good scum hunting version of that play style.

[PantherPunt]

Can we get a reads list please, from the following:

Alch, Bella, ika

Can I get an updated reads list from the following:

Max, Silv, Pant

"Pant" lol. I updated my reads in post 602. I'll probably have another update when a lynch looks imminent.

[PantherPunt]

Hey Bellaphant!

Also, hey Mario, and PantherPunt LOL. It's a small world after all. I have my eye on you, PantherPunt.

What makes you want to keep your eye on me?
I'm mad at myself that I'm hung up on you. You want me to think you're someone and I don't think you really are who you want me to think you are.
You nominated me for some kind of award, I saw? Thanks, I guess.

[PantherPunt]

I also disagree with your statement that we had posted next to nothing, as TTH and myself had posted quite a bit by the time you came in.

@Alch. you don't. You read the thread while you are logged in. And you ISO people who are pinging for you. No chance i could have hoped to read all 15,000 posts that went up in the 7 day span of the game

@Alch - what do you think of TTH? What do you think of her assumption that I'm reading you, Varian, and her as scummy because she thinks it's likely that I had SE/IC scum in my newbie game?

I think TTH is Town for their posts regarding Bella.

I don't really know about the IC/SE thing, I just know a lot of newbie players tend to tunnel the ICs out of paranoia, so I guess if your IC or SE's were scum in that game

you might confuse a more experienced style as scummy.

@Alch-

Can you give a little bit of an explanation on how TTH looked town based on their early posts re: Bella?

Can you also elaborate on how TTH conveyed an experienced playstyle? As she asserted and you've agreed with on multiple occasions?

[PantherPunt]

It's killing me that TTH can't garner votes from town here.
And I think TTH, Alch, and Shiro (@Shiro - desperately holding onto that SilverJaws wagon, huh?) make complete sense for a scum team (I know, I know, pre-flip associatives aren't the best. I fully expect to be reminded of this. Likely by those I'm associating).
Though I wouldn't hate a Mario lynch bc I'm not sold on Alch and Shiro.
If SilverJaws is scum, it'll become more apparent. I just don't think the case is good as it stands.

[PantherPunt]

Hey. I wouldn't be opposed to a tl;dr from a kind soul. I'll start reading as soon as I can.

Oh, and UNVOTE:

I have no clue what's going on yet, I can't risk a hammer yet.

tl;dr You're scum. What do you have to say for yourself?

[PantherPunt]

My vote stems from Post 33. Complaining about the gamestate when there wasn't anything particularly annoying to complain about feels like an awkward space filler.

UNVOTE:

TTH heart naked voted rather than asking questions. Hmm.

"Hmm." indeed. I'm a little interested in why you would think that's scummy given how Bees went (reference).

@tth: Define 'Super weird'.

She didn't directly acknowledge what I brought up about Bees! but did indirectly (and vaguely) concede that I tend to "votes [her] within a few rl days of the thread opening." It's a point that doesn't really have any relevance and certainly doesn't reveal anything about why she's scum reading me for my vote. The preceding sentence about Alchemist (also with little relevance to the current discussion) just makes it come off as trying to force a casual tone.

VOTE: JoramvanVught

Unless I get some concrete proof he makes these kinds of commets as Town, I think this is the most likely to turn up scum atm.

Did a little stalking on this and he doesn't have any completed games and I'm working from the assumption that he's a newbie. What, specifically, about Joram is bothersome to you?

These posts from TTH have

direction, confidence, and helped get the game moving

. That's about what you'd expect from an experienced player.

1st post - Self meta to show that she naked votes Bella when she is town (I find this scummy, not experienced-player play)
2nd post - Says that the self-meta post that she asked Bella to acknowledge does not have relevance. Says it does not explain why she's scumreading her (despite Bella's post being a semi-retraction of her scumread). This is not a post with direction, confidence, game advancement. It actually looks like quasi-self-contradiction, misrepresentation, and redirection to Bella.
3rd post - A post where she *incorrectly* states that Joram had no completed games. That's oversight at best and blatant misdirection at worst. How does it show direction, confidence, game advancement?

She was on the early Bella wagon, but the specific reasoning was different than what others were saying about Bella at the time, which indicates to me she had legitimate reasons to scumread Bella rather than just joining a bandwagon.

Her reasons were just as thin if not thinner than anyone else who had early votes on Bella.

Ugh.

TTH and Alch are my strongest scum reads.

I smell a SilverJaws ML and a Panther NK coming here. But what can I do other than explain my scumreads as well as I can? I guess I will construct a more thorough case on Alch now...anticipating this will be a short-lived game for me.

[PantherPunt]

inb4 quick hammer now that I (probably stupidly) voiced that I will have a case on Alch upcoming...

[PantherPunt]

So Alch really wants SilverJaws to go because of the mudslinging. If the TTH wagon isn't going to get steam, I propose an Alch counter wagon.

VOTE: Alchemist

Max
Luna
Vedith
Bella

Fire
SilverJaws

ika
Performer

Mario
Shiro

TTH
Alchemist

[PantherPunt]

@Panth to be fair all the counter wagon are on silver since he is the leading wagon

And you my friend are attempting to create the 3rd counter wagon to his. I doubt it will grow but yea.

Also scumreading both TTH and Alche is illogical. Scum have no reason to go that far to protect a team mate. What makes you think scumAlche would defend ScumTTH that much ?

Also i appear I am your third top scumread. Cool cool why?

Also you townread jaws. Again why ? What has he done that makes you think he is town ? <<<This question goes to your too performer cause you said my anylis about him was town yet you townread him. What has he done that can justify anything above a null. I do not get it.

unless Alch is committed to the idea that "of course nobody will think scum is harddefending their partner like that" just like you are voicing. At worst, I think 1 of the 2 of them is scum. And I'm not going to rule out both...not yet (esp since you're asking me to).

You are an additional scumread bc I didn't like your predecessor. Then I liked you for a bit...then you got really into the SilverJaws wagon... And I just don't see the scum case on Silver being strong enough to make him the clear lynch choice. Not nearly as much as TTH or Alch, personally. Silver case seems a bit forced/pushed for my liking.
Tbf, the groupings are not in order. They are just groupings mainly. And you might be interchangeable with Mario or either of the two in the null/white grouping (ie you might be null but I'm leaning toward the scum side of the line rather than the town side atm).

I townread Jaws because he called out TTH for similar things to me (I might be victim to buddying/being parroted -

maybe

) but because he

also

added to what I said with

original

analysis. By pointing out that TTH didn't seem to care to ask me *what* I found offputting about TTH, Alch, and Varian. She just seemed to care about dismissing me. That's something nobody else brought up (including me, embarrassingly enough) and shows me he's not *just* sheeping opinions, but rather analyzing all info.

@Max - for Vedith - I can't recall many specific posts that make me think he's town. I do recall one where he said something like "that should worry you" (when he was accused of buddying Joram iirc).
He's said some scummy things (another reason why I don't hate SilverJaws posts). But I've gotten the impression he has said some scummy things intentionally to see what kind of responses he gets. I'll ISO him and pull quotes if you want. All of these reads are dynamic, of course. That's why they need updating from time to time.

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler: Vedith posts I like

Never played with Joraman
@Joraman - there are possible riles that can give proof though. Here's a tip, if you see me in a game then enter. I always look scummy

So, Fire... Explain how Arch tried to look too towns?

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

@Lizard - Arch is town for you because...?
Any particular post?

Nice originality on your reason for me. Glad that wasn't said just before your post.

I wanted to see how you would react to the accusation, since I don't know if your buddying was Town or scum motivated.

It wasn't actually buddying, I was being sarcastic.
The fact that I questioned a very weak read is your reasoning for me buddying. That says it all about how you will be playing this game.

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?

scum aren't looking to gain anything. just cast shade and suspcion that they hope others latch onto

VOTE: alchemist

You must pay for voting Alchemist!!!
VOTE: PantherPunt
Take your vote of Alchemist, he is town!

I can't tell if you're still being jokey or if you have that strong of a town read this early in the game. Can you enlighten me?

Anything that FB says never makes sense.
However, he does set in his ways so I expect he is serious on the Alch being town part.

That took a whole 5 seconds to find...

@FB - if TTH is scum, wouldn't that make Bella most likely town?
I know TTH has unvoted (correct me if I'm wrong TTH) but it's only so he can catch up and look into the game more, right?
The thought of voting Bella is still there by him.

Why so worried about a wagon on you?

Is my english really that bad, or are ppl just not reading my posts

Your English is fine, your reasons are not...

Because as I said, when he's scum he is pushy and involved... When he's town he sits back a lot.
I can draw a picture if that helps?

Upon an ISO reread, I like Vedith a lot. If there are any questions about why I like any of these posts, feel free to ask. Unlike TTH - I will give understandable responses that fit the question that is asked.

[PantherPunt]

You just copied Performer with the saying scummy things intentionally.

Except I can give specific examples

[PantherPunt]

Like I said before, I can't stop silver lynch. And if you're right Shiro, feel free to "I told you so" as much as you'd like.

You don't think Alch and TTH are both scum, so gun to head, which do you think is more likely to be scum?

[PantherPunt]

Diego hasn't impressed me either

Glad to hear that since he hasn't posted anything of value yet..... -_-

[PantherPunt]

I was directing my -_- at Shiro for the "like duh obviously" statement. Not ripping sandiego.
Fwiw to whoever.

[PantherPunt]

I read mockingjay without getting off the toilet a few years ago

[PantherPunt]

thread devolution level = 8.5
@Shiro - I was just being a jackass

[PantherPunt]

thread devolution level = 8.5
@Shiro - I was just being a jackass

Damn I should have guessed so. Now I feel dumb. Also lighten up a bit. It is not like anything is happening at the moment ^_^

You right. You right. I'm just going out of the country on 10/4 and wasn't expecting this game to be so slow moving. But I'm enjoying it which is what matters most.

[PantherPunt]

Votecount 1.13

L-1 Silverjaws - 6 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, TellTaleHeart, MarioManiac4
TellTaleHeart - 4 - PantherPunt, Silverjaws, Luna Fox, MaxwellPuckett
Luna Fox- 1 - Flow Alpha
MarioManiac4 - 1 - Alchemist21

Not Voting: Bellaphant

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

I promise if somebody hammers Silverjaws I'll read this clusterfuck <3

Well, you changing your vote could speed things up!
I mean, your not really putting up a strong enough case for anyone to swap to Alch, and your vote is just being wasted.
Are you not voting Silver because you have a null Town read on him, or do you want a lynch on Alch more?

I *want* a lynch on Diego(TTH) but that wasn't going anywhere. I still find Alch to be very scummy.
I think the scum case against Silver is just very weak, but now that slot is very far past prod and looks like it may be another replacement. The replacements are KILLING the town's efforts on D1.
I'm not going to hammer Silver just to move the game forward. If scum are using the "disappear and hide" tactic, then they should be ashamed of themselves, imo. I'm not one to assume someone who disappears is automatically scum. If it turns out that way, I'll just blacklist them going forward.

[PantherPunt]

I've finally fallen victim to the accidental MQ. yay

[PantherPunt]

@Mario - are you around? What are your thoughts on the last few pages? I know you said you wouldn't catch up unless Silver is hammered (I really don't like that) but I assume you are least keeping up with the game since you've switched to your main after being run up?

[PantherPunt]

I'm, like, sort of around?
I didn't mean I won't catch up, I mean I won't read the tvtvs (IMO) that transpired over a few pages and changed pretty much naught.
I'm leaning Alchemist for the S, but it may well be you.

That is interesting.
I'm curious why you had an issue with me "spamming" the thread when all I'd posted is game content, but you haven't voiced any issue with people spamming the thread with pictures etc.
And I still don't like your AtE when you asserted that I was "mocking" you before. You actually said something like "How is that AtE Mr. Reasons?" and then I responded, and then you ducked and covered and didn't address it. Or did I miss that?

It's also weird that you were at 4 votes at one point (since down to 3 since Alch moved off of you) and you've basically gone dormant from scumhunting (have you ever, though?) in hopes of a SilverJaws hammer. Also weird that people had a problem with SilverJaws disapperance but no issue with your lack of scumhunting. As I look at your ISO, it's been pretty much defense. No scumhunting (just accusations of scumminess).

You said this before:

Interesting to note, Sparrow/Mario keep avoiding mentioning anything related to why they wouldn't prefer to lynch TTH over Silver, despite being asked multiple times by panther.

There are more scummy players.

So who are they

AND WHY

? Possibly me or Alch based upon 873 (but I had to pry that from you). Help give me an idea of why you find the players who you're calling scum scummy.

[PantherPunt]

Quick reread of Lizard is a pretty nice spew....sorry for your luck scum team.

Lizard spewed town:

Firebringer

, Ika, Vedith, Luna

And pretty sure spewed Alch scum. On top of my previous suspicions.
VOTE: Alchemist

all signs point to TTH/Diego being town, but not a lock. that slot should never survive to f3

also @vig - woah

[PantherPunt]

Votecount 1.16

Silverjaws - 5 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, MarioManiac4
MarioManiac4 - 4 - Alchemist21, Bellaphant, Performer, MaxwellPuckett
Diego1487 - 2 - PantherPunt, Silverjaws

Not Voting: Luna Fox, Diego1487

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

This was a good one to look at. The next vote after this VC was Alch voting Silverjaws. Can't give any townpoints whatsoever for that, because it was prime bussing time for towncred.

Also, unless Silver/Mario were competing scum wagons, which I highly doubt, then Shiro, ika, Vedith are never scum imo.
Also thinking Alch moved because it would look bad if both of the other scum were on the counterwagon. And I'm thinking Performer is the other scum.

[PantherPunt]

Right, that was a strange outcome.

Okay, so as it stands this is where I am going with.

Town
Mario
Shiro
Ika

Town Lean
Luna

Null
Panther
Diego

Scum lean
Maxwell

Scum
Alch
Performer

I'd like to see these both squirm today.

VOTE: Alch

Null
Panther
Diego

How do you have a null on Diego after silver's flip?

I'm more curious as to how Vedith has the same top-2 scumreads as me and has at me at null and also questioning others about me.
@Vedith - do you often scumread folks with the same scumreads as you?

[PantherPunt]

Well at least someone has the sense to realize Performer and I aren't scum together,

Oh, and Luna, this setup doesn't give scum daychat. The only way scum could have conspired against TTH was in the pre-game, and there's absolutely no way I could have known Silver was an alt just by being scumbuddies with him if I were scum.

@Panther, why do you think Diego shouldn't survive past D3 even if all signs point to them being Town?

I don't think that. Maybe you misread f3 as D3. Or you are trying to misrep and throw shade at me intentionally. Not sure.

[PantherPunt]

I told you I'd get back to you guys and now I see I'm on L-2. At least someone, namely Diego, has the good sense to defend me.

The only person who defended me correctly

, as I saw from the posts since I could last post. Thank you Diego.

959, 960, 963 – Thank you Diego.

First person to actually read me right after day 1, on this site.

Hold on hold on lol. Did you just thank Diego for "correctly" defending your play as just flat out

bad play

?

Like, you're thanking him for saying you aren't scummy because you're bad.

I've never seen that before......

[PantherPunt]

Is amazing how PoE works it's magic, don't you think?

Agreed

also

Vote:Alch

stahp.
performer is scummier than alchemist21.

WHY?!

You never replied to 885 prior to D1 ending. If you are going to keep saying so-and-so is scummier than so-and-so, you have to give a reason. You keep making declaratory posts without justification.

[PantherPunt]

Hi panther. We finally have someone I have some meta on. That's nice.

Since Alch looks like a pretty townish guy I'll UNVOTE: Alchemist

. I generally like to keep my vote blank near the start of the game and let everyone speak. With that being said, Here are my top scumreads:
Ika, whose posts can be summed up with *hops on easy wagon* TOWNBLOCK PARTY! Plus 66 seems a bit suspect.
Vedith, who seems to be trying to buddy up with Joram and did that classic reverse psychology move in 58 like that ever works.
joram, who hasn't stopped the 'I'm a huge noob' posts and hasn't done much else
Panther, who pushed my lynch in newbie 1628 (j/k, you're null)

Alch I think is probably town, everyone else is null.

@panther's 130:

What do you find suspicious about Alchemist? I'm not seeing it.

Also, how did you catch up on this game and skim another and still form proper reads in >25 minutes? I'm jealous.
pedit: @vedith's 132: That was posted just minutes before mine. I didn't see it until the preview and I couldn't be bothered to change it.

Alch seems to be scumhunting perfectly fine and doesn't really catch my attention as scummy. I have a townie feeling on him.

These two posts.... Lizard really didn't give townreads out generously. Yet, he opens the game with an "RVS" vote on Alch. But then unvotes as he says he finds Alch "a pretty townish guy." Then, for some reason, he ends the same post reiterating that Alch is probably town.

Another post, he starts out by asking me what I find suspicious about Alchemist, because he doesn't see it. Then decides to end the post by again saying that Alch is scumhunting perfectly fine and gives a townie feeling.

Does nobody else think this gives Alch an extremely high amount of scum equity? Keep it simple here folks... vote Alch.

[PantherPunt]

@Vedith you didn't scumread me - that's correct. You null read me, but said something along the lines of "if Alch or Performer flip town, we lynch Panther" which looks bad, and I don't understand the thought process there. Care to elaborate on that logic?

I town read you because you've been very blatantly town to me. And my vote wasn't a throwaway vote. My top two scum all of D1 were TTH and Alch. I just wasn't as confident in Lizard/TTH and wasn't going to hammer just to move the game along. We had an exchange regarding that iirc, no?

[PantherPunt]

Your town/scum reads mean nothing to me, sorry to say (That's not me being an arsehole, it's a case of I try not to go by others unless I am confident in them being town).

If you are scum you know who are town and could be buddying the stronger reads while throwing a partner under the bus

(I don't think that you are throwing a partner under the bus here as too risky, but you get what I mean I assume).

And lol at this. I was the first person to call Alch scum so idk how I'm buddying strong town reads. And I may not have been first but I was quick to the scum!Performer party.

I'm not so concerned about Alch saying SilverJaws was an alt. I moreso didn't like Alch confirming that FlowAlpha (now, Performer) was a hyrda. That was just weird, weird, weird happenstance if he actually discovered that bc people were talking about this site somewhere offsite.

[PantherPunt]

Why would I not say that? I doubt that they would both flip town but

you would be my suspect if they did

. Well, I would probably look at Maxwell first before you to be honest.
Everyone else I have a strong enough town read not to lynch. If we lynch Alch and he is scum, you do go into the town section though, as I said I can't see you throwing scum under the bus in the situation.

But why would I be your top suspect?
Can't help but tinfoil when you say things like this.

[PantherPunt]

@Panther

Lizard could have been trying to buddy alch, at least that is how I saw it from yesterday.


P.edit: Don't name call PP it is rude :/

Maybe. But it would be odd that he decided to buddy one slot and throw shade at many others at early stages in the game.
Where did I name call?

[PantherPunt]

954 ... has anyone had much experience playing with Mario? Does he troll like St. Constantine or is just obnoxious like RadiantCowBells?

I've been re-reading ISOs of people and I'm scratching my head over Silv's 523 as he mentioned TTH/Diego bussing Bellaphant. Diego and Silv voted each other by the end of day 1. Silv mentioned he'd happily vote Mario since he's at L-1. I'm thinking that post along with others, will be crucial in our analysis of the right lynch on d2, but not certain what else to make of it. If anyone has more to add in terms of interpretation of that post, please do so.

What are you talking about here? Like what is the point you are trying to get across? It looks to me like a whole bunch of nothing.

What made you scratch your head about Silv saying TTH/Diego was bussing Bella? Silv was scum. Bella was town. So TTH/Diego wasn't a bus no matter what when voting Bella. Silv was throwing scumshade at Bella. What are you confused about?

Thanks for linking that post though. There is that Lizard/Silv slot townreading Alch hard again.

[PantherPunt]

I don't think you understand my comment sadly...

You realise that the Hydra could have been confirmed on sign up? I don't remember seeing it but I join a lot of games so I don't pay attention to who is in until the game starts.

Which point do I not understand? All I want to do is understand.
And I'm referring to post 225 wrt hyrda conf

[PantherPunt]

1. My point is, I don't think you as scum, I won't vote you today. You will be my focus when it's you and all my townier looking people.
2. Ah okay, then yeah that is suspicious as anything. I'm not sure why he went into such detail there instead of just saying "He told me on ToS"...
3. If Alch doesn't claim a PR today I'll be confident in his lynch. Get that man to L1 I say!

1. Fair enough.
2. Agreed.
3. ...feels like an invitation for scum!Alch to claim a PR, no?

I mean, the scumteam knows which PRs

AREN'T

in the game and thus could be safely claimed without a counter.
Alternatively, they could also claim one that IS in the game so that the PR outs themselves by countering. But in the current situation, I'd suspect the former rather than the latter.

[PantherPunt]

I have no words for 1014 ....

[PantherPunt]

Yea performer. I think you just scum slipped.

point to it specifically. this is important.

[PantherPunt]

There's only three people left in the game who know if there's a cop...2 scum buddies and the cop(if there is one).

Fairly certain I have an idea of what Perf is misunderstanding, but I'll let him speak for himself.
And after that I'll weigh in.

[PantherPunt]

As I suspected, Performer thinks a 1-shot Cop means a vig shot.
Nope. Just means 1 investigation. This makes me want to think you might be town, as this would have been discussed in scum chat.
But I also am always skeptical at intentional attempts to be derpcleared.

Either way, all the more reason Alch should be the lynch today.

[PantherPunt]

@Vedith - I don't think he thinks town killed twice. He was saying that the fact there were 2 kills means "either a 1-shot cop OR a 2-shot vig with 1 shot remaining"

@Shiro - see what I said to Vedith. Not defending Performer here. I also think it could be a derpclear/dumbtell attempt, but the reasoning that you and Vedith are using isn't sound.

[PantherPunt]

I really want a Performer lynch now.
A scum flip will confirm PP as scum for me.
Pushing hard for Performs counter wagon and assisting in giving his buddy a reason for his scum slip.

lol

[PantherPunt]

No that is not what he said.
He even says that we have a chance for another investigation, so he knows that the cop is investigating.

He thinks the 1-shot cop is a cop who gets investigations every night and also has a 1-time shot.
To be clear as to why my mind went there immediately - I liked this setup when I subbed in, and I decided to run this setup myself on another site. I had 2 somewhat experienced players PM me and ask if 1-shot cop meant a normal cop who also gets 1 vig shot in the game.

[PantherPunt]

@Vedith - because if you read his post it's very clear that this is what he thought. Whether it was a genuine thought or an attempted derpclear I'm not sure about.

@Performer :

As I suspected, Performer thinks a 1-shot Cop means a vig shot. Come on , dude. I posted something regarding Silv's post and no one even commented on that, and you're still telling me there's nothing I'm doing while I'm doing my own research. Sometimes I wonder why I bother with certain people.

I responded to your post regarding Silv and said it made no sense. You didn't respond to that? You ignored it and said nobody wants to play with you. Don't do that.

[PantherPunt]

also @Performer, Vedith is a terrible vote. just straight OMGUS.

[PantherPunt]

No that is not what he said.
He even says that we have a chance for another investigation, so he knows that the cop is investigating.

He thinks the 1-shot cop is a cop who gets investigations every night and also has a 1-time shot.
To be clear as to why my mind went there immediately - I liked this setup when I subbed in, and I decided to run this setup myself on another site. I had 2 somewhat experienced players PM me and ask if 1-shot cop meant a normal cop who also gets 1 vig shot in the game.

also, those questions were asked during sign-ups. not a discussion of an ongoing game. no modkills

[PantherPunt]

Panth, how mad are you going to be at Performer when you lose because of him?

lol I really like you Vedith because I see myself in you.

I fear that you are going to tunnel me regardless of Performer flip - if scum, you'll say I defended a buddy. If town, you'll say obv TMI because how could anyone not think Performer was lockscum.

Either way, I'm going to try to lynch scum and you can do you, whatever that might be.

[PantherPunt]

@Vedith - because if you read his post it's very clear that this is what he thought. Whether it was a genuine thought or an attempted derpclear I'm not sure about.

@Performer :

As I suspected, Performer thinks a 1-shot Cop means a vig shot. Come on , dude. I posted something regarding Silv's post and no one even commented on that, and you're still telling me there's nothing I'm doing while I'm doing my own research. Sometimes I wonder why I bother with certain people.

I responded to your post regarding Silv and said it made no sense. You didn't respond to that? You ignored it and said nobody wants to play with you. Don't do that.

Pant I expected nothing less than you being patient , which I commend. But I'm not ignoring, I'm not caught up in replying to everyone yet. I'm planning on doing 2 more ISOs after getting some breakfast, on Ved and Shiro - they posted a ton, it'll take awhile to see what I get.

Odd that you expect me to be patient...not sure where you'd get that. I'm the opposite of patient.

I hope you have a good answer for me. I'll repost for you:

954 ... has anyone had much experience playing with Mario? Does he troll like St. Constantine or is just obnoxious like RadiantCowBells?

I've been re-reading ISOs of people and I'm scratching my head over Silv's 523 as he mentioned TTH/Diego bussing Bellaphant. Diego and Silv voted each other by the end of day 1. Silv mentioned he'd happily vote Mario since he's at L-1. I'm thinking that post along with others, will be crucial in our analysis of the right lynch on d2, but not certain what else to make of it. If anyone has more to add in terms of interpretation of that post, please do so.

What are you talking about here? Like what is the point you are trying to get across? It looks to me like a whole bunch of nothing.

What made you scratch your head about Silv saying TTH/Diego was bussing Bella? Silv was scum. Bella was town. So TTH/Diego wasn't a bus no matter what when voting Bella. Silv was throwing scumshade at Bella. What are you confused about?

That was your scummiest post by a landslide.

[PantherPunt]

hi ppl whats going on

When do you start playing mafia?

[PantherPunt]

Yea performer. I think you just scum slipped.

There's only three people left in the game who know if there's a cop...2 scum buddies and the cop(if there is one).

Do you typically find scum slips but then fail to vote?

[PantherPunt]

Buddy chill. I said I think I found a scum slip. Problem is, you answered for him and threw a case of wine all over the issue. Secondly, I feel that there is more that can be learned today before we end it with 12 RL days left.

Take a deep breathe, and step away from the keyboard.

Hey it's Mario all over again! As condescending and aresholish as "buddy chill" and "step away from the keyboard" are, I'll excuse you.

The only problem I have is when people take hard stances and don't vote that way. Or when people refuse to take hard stances all game long. Those are scumtraits. Pardon me for asking you a question about your play.

I agree I want to hear from everyone. I'm not trying to end the day early. I want to hear plenty more from you.

[PantherPunt]

Buddy chill. I said I think I found a scum slip. Problem is, you answered for him and threw a case of wine all over the issue. Secondly, I feel that there is more that can be learned today before we end it with 12 RL days left.

Take a deep breathe, and step away from the keyboard.

And did you have nothing to say about the conversation up to that point?
Looks mighty coincidental that you appear back in the thread to respond to my question to you. Glad you were able to come back at that time.

[PantherPunt]

You do realize that if I vote for him right now, I'll end the day right?

If you want to hear "plenty" more from me, you'll need me not to vote.

p.edit: I work. I do not have time to respond to everything at once. You asked me direct questions, so I prioritized that first.

Yes, I'm conscious and can read so I do realize that (there's my snark back at you, bro). I was questioning why you didn't vote when you thought you found a slip. In my experience, scum throw shade and withhold their vote.

I'm glad you prioritized your response to me. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the last few pages overall.

[PantherPunt]

final 3.

as in - Diego is most likely town bc of SilverJaws big TTH post, but if Diego is, for some reason, still alive as the herd thins, that wouldn't make much sense to me.

[PantherPunt]

Not sure what you're getting at here by adding the last part about me knowing the cop is investigating. Role cops do investigations at night, everybody should know this.

Oh! Now I get it... I thought that Role Cops transported 2 people, so I read this as a 1 shot Doc heal who sends a message every night.
You are town for me.

I somehow don't understand what clicked for you.

And how you cracked the whip on PR details when you now come and say you don't know what certain PRs do. Like, what?

What do you think of me now that you are back to believing Performer is town?

[PantherPunt]

Not sure what you're getting at here by adding the last part about me knowing the cop is investigating. Role cops do investigations at night, everybody should know this.

Oh! Now I get it... I thought that Role Cops transported 2 people, so I read this as a 1 shot Doc heal who sends a message every night.
You are town for me.

I somehow don't understand what clicked for you.

And how you cracked the whip on PR details when you now come and say you don't know what certain PRs do. Like, what?

What do you think of me now that you are back to believing Performer is town?

And how did Doc ever enter the conversation of this thread? WHAT IS HAPPENING

[PantherPunt]

ppl who make no sense today: Performer, Vedith
ppl making sense: Panther, Shiro

not sure about alignments, I just know I can't work with nonsense

[PantherPunt]

Is Shiro the only one who actually understood my comment?

Sheepishly realizing you were trolling. Ok retract you making no sense

[PantherPunt]

@Alchemist - thoughts on the slot you've been hard defending as town voting for you?

[PantherPunt]

When Silverjaws was being run up, Performer asked for no hammer. He asked for an extension. He was freaking out at the incoming lynch of his scumbuddy.
There's also the readlist thing I explained d1.
And his sudden voting me as soon as I voted him.

IMO, these are much better reasons than the whole PR confusion thing. Said it before and I'll say again that Alch and Performer are our likely 2 scum left. I wanted to get rid of Alch first, but it looks like Performer is coming up first. Nothing that Performer is saying is making logical sense, so I'm not opposed to this being today's lynch.

[PantherPunt]

I still don't get how anyone could think Performer and I are scum together.

For me, individual scumminess. And PoE of some others.
I don't get how anyone could listen to a scumread say there's no way their partner is X.

[PantherPunt]

Is Shiro the only one who actually understood my comment?

I got it too lmao.
And im laughing more at PP not getting it

oh no I'm the butt of jokes!

[PantherPunt]

No but we have a lot more to talk about. An Ika hammer will stop that.

Agree here.
And no way scum fake claim IC ever. Because without mod confirmation then it might as well be a scum claim.

[PantherPunt]

with the assumption that mod will confirm Alch as IC, my scummiest pile probably becomes Performer, ika, Diego.

ika because Lizard's last ditch post to distance from ika before replacing out. along with ika falling off the map.
Diego because Silver's first big post could certainly have been a TTH bus with the hopes that it would be clearing for TTH after his flip...which it kinda has been.

[PantherPunt]

Mario is indeed a troll. should probably make sure you're logged into the right account before you troll, though.

[PantherPunt]

(let me have fun for one second, gosh. it's not the same as being a troll. my intention on this site was not at all to troll. although i think you were also trolling by that last bit)

:p well of course - the only logical type of response

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Performer

Seriously, this guy's scum. I've given my reasoning and yet he continues to (unless i miss something) have me as his top scumread for the following convincing reasons:

I just ISO'd you Mario and I feel good about you being town. I agree that Performer is most likely scum. In that ISO of you, I see that you (like me) are skeptical of ika. (upon another reread of Lizard, the "f off" type of post he wrote to ika before requesting replacement felt disingenuous. like he was intentionally distancing from ika before he replaced out). If I'm wrong about Performer, I'm looking at Diego.

[PantherPunt]

I'll declare

INTENT ON PERFORMER

I do want a claim now. And I'm just beating Vedith to the punch in asking for it.

[PantherPunt]

ya I guess I should
UNVOTE: Alchemist

[PantherPunt]

I thought that we were friends Panth!
While you're at it though, care to remove your vote from Alch?

*Grabs his pitch fork and fire*
Tell us what we want to know Performer!

He's just too disappointed I'm not scum to let go. Lol

that was it! for real can't figure out the hard defense of TTH still

[PantherPunt]

Mario we call that the Panther and Luna effect.

I was thinking more about silverjaws and TTH and the more I think about it the more I think it WAS a bus. For silverjaws, it meant that a TTH lynch and scum flip is very clearing for silverjaws. For a silverjaws lynch and flip it would serve to look clearing for TTH. It was kinda a win-win scum read for the position that Silver was put into upon substitution.

If Performer flips town, please don't forget this.

[PantherPunt]

Shit even if he flips scum don't forget it. But ika is on the radar too. Sorry for double post

[PantherPunt]

lol. Mario loves those VCA curveballs