Open 670: Near Vanilla (Over)

[Hawk]

[Hawk]

Imma just put this over someplace else.

VOTE: Toto

[Hawk]

VOTE: Hawk

He asked for a wagon on him so I'm obliging.

I did what now?

[Hawk]

Information.

Why are you trying to look busy?

How else would you suggest that I attempt to understand the rationale behind an action? I most likely would not have to keep asking questions if you were simply forthcoming with your reasoning. Your one worded response would lead me to ask "What information are you hoping to derive from a starting wagon"; however, you do not need to answer since I do not expect a helpful response.

Hey didn't ask you why you're inquiring into his thoughts but why you are trying to look busy. Isn't it obvious that a an early wagon can draw out information? Whether it's helpful or not it's still information.

Do you think early wagons are detrimental to town?

[Hawk]

Hey didn't ask you why you're inquiring into his thoughts but why you are trying to look busy.

Hi.

Did my response not address this? Apologies if I was not clear, but I was inferring that I was not trying to look busy; rather, I was asking questions to gain a better understanding of his thoughts on why my wagon was "fantastic." If asking questions comes across as me attempting to look busy, than how else would you suggest I proceed?

Isn't it obvious that a an early wagon can draw out information? Whether it's helpful or not it's still information.

It is apparently not obvious to me. Was this meant to be rhetorical?

Do you think early wagons are detrimental to town?

Aside from the fact that they are statistically more likely to be on someone who is town, I cannot think of why they would be.

It's not that asking questions nesscarily looks busy it's that asking questions which might be fairly obviously answered look busy.

You saying it's not obvious to you and then not seeing why it would be detrimental tells me you clearly understand that they draw out information.

Questions are fine but they should lead somewhere.

What did you hope to understand or learn from asking the questions you did? Does BBT's explanation give you a better read on BBT or anyone else?

Pedit: Magna outlines some of what I'm trying to say here much better than I can from mobile.

[Hawk]

I did what now?

Your vote seemed too considered. Which could mean that you wanted either to avoid being on a town wagon or to switch attention away from a scum wagon. Or it could mean that you wanted to see who reacted to your vote. Your comment suggests it probably wasn't the second one.

Are you drawing all of this from my post on p1? Cause damn that's some serious WIFOM right there... my motivations for my vote are purely RVS. I didn't want to be on that wagon cause I didn't want to play this game apart of an early wagon? If you think you can find something alignment indicative from that go for it cause you won't lol.

[Hawk]

@Sesq This is where the logic is. I snipped out all of the non important stuff.

Isn't it obvious that a an early wagon can draw out information? Whether it's helpful or not it's still information.

It is apparently not obvious to me.

Was this meant to be rhetorical?

Do you think early wagons are detrimental to town?

Aside from the fact that they are statistically more likely to be on someone who is town,

I cannot think of why they would be.

I bolded the contradiction. This is why I say he knows exactly why early wagons wold draw out information.

One second he says it's not obvious. Next he's saying he doesn't see or cannot think of why they would be detrimental.

So if they're not detrimental how is it not obvious that they could bring about something useful for town?

[Hawk]

UNVOTE: Toto
VOTE: Music Box
I don't mind Sheeping your vote Toto. If Music was able to draw that much from my RVS vote I'll like to hear what else he has to say.

At music box. What do you think about LUV's naked vote? What about Nebula?

[Hawk]

Note: I looked up RVS in the MafiaWiki, and the third paragraph mentions "a wagon on someone may cause them to panic." So, perhaps there is some utility to a random wagon, but why not simply start questioning other players?

@Nebula you are correct that some things that aren't nesscarily detrimental aren't nesscarily positive however don't ask redundant questions when you know that there is Utility to early wagons.

Also to answer your question, The psychological component from someone being questioned versus someone being pressured and possibly lynched creates a different dynamic and reaction. That's why starting and wagon versus simply starting questioning are different and produce different results

[Hawk]

@Nebula you are correct that some things that aren't nesscarily detrimental aren't nesscarily positive however don't ask redundant questions when you know that there is Utility to early wagons.

Fair point, and I will concede. I should have used past tense in that statement.

Also to answer your question, The psychological component from someone being questioned versus someone being pressured and possibly lynched creates a different dynamic and reaction. That's why starting and wagon versus simply starting questioning are different and produce different results

To question this - though perhaps this may not be the place and time - I can understand the intent of the psychological component, and the potential results from reaction. However, does not the fact that the majority of the player base understanding that we are in RVS, and thus votes amounting to almost nil in terms of sincerity, negate the intended outcome?

I don't mind talking theory.

Not always. Each game is different. Some players don't react well under pressure. As well as players develop they generally develop subconscious tells when under pressure in a situation that is familiar (being town under pressure versus being scum under pressure) And even in RVS it's important to note these and look for them. Sometimes you randomly get lucky and snipe a scum d1 because they're very uncomfortable under pressure and can't handle it d1 and make slip ups. It's just a variable. Also after a few flips revisiting RVS and quick gut and early reads can draw associative tells fairly easily.

Note I chose not to place a vote on the wagon because I didn't feel like a wagon off of a P1 would result in anything. Because while early wagons are fine it can make players firm up a read or do some scum/town hunting in response to pressure if it's page 1 there's literally almost nothing a player can draw from to do any of that and the pressure stagnated most of the time IME.

Let's try and not get sidetracked talking mafia Theory.

[Hawk]

Any starting wagon is fantastic. It just happens to be you this game.

Hey BBT would you perchance forgo your Nebula wagon and partake in my Music Box wagon???

@LUV I have a feeling I know why you naked voted Music Box and I'm fairly certain it isn't RVS but would you enlighten me a bit? Do you like his explanation for why he voted me?

@ the four people who haven't posted.

LURKERS ARE SCUM AND WILL BE ELIMINATED IF YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE QUALITY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS GAME!!!! I mean... uhhhh please get in here and post. I know some may not have gotten an message like for some reason I just got the email letting me know I had the message for this game lol

[Hawk]

nebula - This guy is interesting, to say the least. At first he looked pretty suspicious but after looking over his responses they're fairly solid. The one thing that sticks out is his inconsistencies about early wagons, which I would partially attribute to him being at the butt of it.

Oh, hi, Sesk. Could you point out the inconsistencies, and I can try to explain them?

I think you are town.

It's in Hawk's above post. As for them, your logic seems to be more solid but I just really have a gut feel towards you. Toto's sheep play is sort of alarming to me. I don't see why MB is scum beyond using bad logic.

Anyone voting my townreads is getting murdered in this game. Fuck logic.

You said murdered instead of lynched.

Oops. Better fix that.

Maybe it was a Vigi slip

[Hawk]

nebula - This guy is interesting, to say the least. At first he looked pretty suspicious but after looking over his responses they're fairly solid. The one thing that sticks out is his inconsistencies about early wagons, which I would partially attribute to him being at the butt of it.

Oh, hi, Sesk. Could you point out the inconsistencies, and I can try to explain them?

I think you are town.

It's in Hawk's above post. As for them, your logic seems to be more solid but I just really have a gut feel towards you. Toto's sheep play is sort of alarming to me. I don't see why MB is scum beyond using bad logic.

Anyone voting my townreads is getting murdered in this game. Fuck logic.

You said murdered instead of lynched.

Oops. Better fix that.

Maybe it was a Vigi slip

[Hawk]

Strategy for what!! All ya get is people YELLING AT YOU for having naked votes!!! The only time you should be naked is in the shower!!!

Naked votes are not naked people. Also, I disagree with being naked exclusively in the shower, unless that's just your kink. As for your vote I've considered voting Toto as well, though you haven't convinced me, as there's no Vig in this setup as Hawk proposed. It's 3 Goons, 9 Townies, a doc and a jailkeep. It's like, 8 votes to lynch so I don't feel like I have any reason not to vote this man for fear of quicklynch (as I'm not 100% sure).

VOTE: Toto

OMG YOU'RE RIGHT THERE IS NO VIGI!!!
Duh... I honestly don't think that was a scum slip. but you do you.

I mean at least you're paying attention

[Hawk]

Strategy for what!! All ya get is people YELLING AT YOU for having naked votes!!! The only time you should be naked is in the shower!!!

Naked votes are not naked people. Also, I disagree with being naked exclusively in the shower, unless that's just your kink. As for your vote I've considered voting Toto as well, though you haven't convinced me, as there's no Vig in this setup as Hawk proposed. It's 3 Goons, 9 Townies, a doc and a jailkeep. It's like, 8 votes to lynch so I don't feel like I have any reason not to vote this man for fear of quicklynch (as I'm not 100% sure).

VOTE: Toto

OMG YOU'RE RIGHT THERE IS NO VIGI!!!
Duh... I honestly don't think that was a scum slip. but you do you.

I mean at least you're paying attention

[Hawk]

My phone really likes to double post. If the mod doesn't mind cleaning that up by like deleting it it would be much appreciated. Not even sure how that happens.

@Musicbox. So you'd rather I just sheep the wagon vote when literally 4 people had commented yet? (It was just me, BBT, Lowell who hasn't said anything since, and Magna) I mean sure watching how everyone else played around that wagon would have been interesting but I just chose to spread the votes instead.

@LUV I thought you might be voting him cause his vote seemed less of an RVS vote and more an attempt to scum-hunt which felt really weak and misrep'd my p1 statement.

pedit: Why is Riley scum Lowell?? Why is Uzi scum?? Can I get some thought process behind those accusations.

[Hawk]

Nice read Magna. But unfortunately still off track. Im liking that earnest scumhunt from Magna.

The LAMIST comment I made was intended to be a joke but I guess it wasn't funny to you :/. People have said before I have a low tolerance for Lurking so I was poking fun at myself.

I still want Lowell to explain his reads. Also note I said Riley when I meant Sesq in my question to Lowell in my earlier comment.

[Hawk]

The LAMIST comment I made was intended to be a joke but I guess it wasn't funny to you :/. People have said before I have a low tolerance for Lurking so I was poking fun at myself.

Link to any completed game where anyone other than yourself as said you have a low tolerance for Lurking please.

I actually don't have any to reference sorry. Fairly new to MafiaScum. If that's the case I guess just throw out my argument since I don't have anything but my own personal playstyle and anyone who wants to vouch on how I play :/.

Lowell that is oppurtunistic as fuck of a vote. Please just respond to my question.

@Lowell Why did you read Sesq and Lil as scum??

[Hawk]

If I can make a correction to what I said in part to my reference. I do have reference points but neither game is completed.

[Hawk]

@Musicbox. So you'd rather I just sheep the wagon vote when literally 4 people had commented yet? (It was just me, BBT, Lowell who hasn't said anything since, and Magna) I mean sure watching how everyone else played around that wagon would have been interesting but I just chose to spread the votes instead.

And what did you gain from that?

Engagement from you, who took my RVS vote for a bit more than that. (I can see the effort here it doesn't) gives me a softer townlean on you. Conversation with LUV and Magna also kinda came from my actions. I'm town leaning Magna for legitimate attempts to scumhunt.

And we got people mindlessly Sheeping (Ala Lowell) Who hasn't contributed to much but some 1 to 2 sentence answers to some questions and "Agree" when referencing Magna going over my ISO.

So some soft townleans and a scumlean so far from what I've done. I mean I'm sure this will all be more insightful as the day goes on but it's just how I chose to start the game? Why did you choose to engage me rather than throw and RVS vote? Why not engage Nebula who was being Wagon'd or someone else?

[Hawk]

Soooooooooo forced. lol That Nebula slip has me rolling.

Anyway my scumlean is actually more on Lowell than anyone else.

VOTE: Lowell

Soft town leans on

Magna, MB, and Nebula(can I call you Nebbie :p)

Scumlean on Lowell.

Here's my reasoning. Magna and MB both decided to pick apart and hunt for something scummy in my statements. Shows some effort and some town motivations. Lowell on the other hand has given some rather loose 1 to 2 liner reads and a sheep vote because Magna pressured me. (Note He also sheeped Magna's RVS vote but this point is irrelevant till people start flipping)

Other players I have rather nullish to soft reads for but I need to a bit more to firm them up.

Reserving actual reads on Sesq, LUV, and Toto basically.

If I'm forgetting anyone please let me know.

Also no KT I'm not forgetting you.

Kaintepeslean on Kain Tepes. Fairly certain that KT is KainTepes :p

[Hawk]

Oh realized I left out Riley and BBT. Yeah those are null too. BBT gave real soft reads and I have no idea how to read Riley yet.

Also for everyone who is reading LUV based off his behavior being different from prior games understand that Meta is pretty fucking NAI for good players. I mean just look at Nebbie :p

[Hawk]

Nebbie, or Nebs, is cool. I like your reads.

I've only played one other game with Lowell and he was lurky/sheepy in that. I would like him to actually provide some content this time around.

Also, I cbf'd to make any more walls. God, I hate walls.

P-edit

F'you.

I didn't mean it in a bad way just that people can slip in and out of a meta with effort.

Also I like that you like Nebby.

[Hawk]

I'm very confused as to his formation of the townbloc as well. He just ignored my other town reads and included you and Frederick who hasn't even posted yet right?

[Hawk]

@Magna there's a difference between not actively engaging a slot and not wagoning them. I engage Nebula fairly well I thought. I agree Nebula's inclusion of KT and Frederick makes me very confused. Also I don't see why we would be forming a townBloc like that so early. I do find it discomforting that my town reads are opposed in some spots right now.

@Magna what do you think of Lowell's minimal explanation for his sheepy read and vote?

[Hawk]

Can I get a VC??

Two questions.

Sesq: Where exactly where you persuading other people not to vote Nebula cause I don't see it...

@Lowell can you give me a bit more insight as to why you just seem to be Wagoning? Do you just prefer to scum hunt reactively? Also walk me through why Riley was town again?

[Hawk]

Nah, I wanna lynch you.

Why?

[Hawk]

41 and 47 look like town to me. I think he is genuinely trying to figure nebula out, and not trying to do so for the looks or to trap them. That was the most town like interaction I had looked at so far.

Hawk, would you agree with this assessment that your 41 and 47 are 'town' posts?

Considering I'm town yes? If you're asking whether or not you can draw alignment from those posts. I'd say nothat entirely but I can see how Toto could see them as town. I didn't like Nebula's original answer in 41 so I questioned further and then in 47 I clarified some theory and asked more questions.

@Toto can you point out where he scum claimed? Also point out his breadcrumbs cause I only saw where he said "Lynching me would be bad" which isn't exactly a claim but I get where you're coming from and think that's a pretty scummy answer to give if he's not soft claiming anything.

[Hawk]

It might have been a bad argument, but had you replaced into a town slot, I don't feel like you would have entertained the post.

Normally, probably not. But with the forced playstyle I was using at the time, you'll notice I responded to pretty much everything.

That playstyle was forced tho, so you can see how it's hard for us to draw a conclusion on how you were actually thinking when you responded too it. As well even with that forced playstyle you could have said something along the lines of.

"Hi, Magna. I don't think the replacement regardless of it forced due to banning or requested by Hellfire is Alignment Indicative."

Like if you know you're town why get defensive? The replacement being a scum slip because it was requested and not forced doesn't make sense if the slot is town. That seemed like a better way to phrase it in stone cold robotic Nebula persona.

Not feeling Nebula so much anymore :/

[Hawk]

I'm obviously asking you to look at it from a non-biased perspective.

I thought a lot of it was theory talk and therefore NAI, so I'm interested to see that you do think they're town posts.

I feel like Toto is trying to pocket you. This isn't saying I think you're town, but looking at Toto's posts wrt you I can't help but think it.

Right sorry, I think I answered it but let me be clear.

No I would not find my posts in 41 and 47 to be alignment indicative. The questioning is good but engagement and some slight theory talk does not a town post make.

I would probably like those posts if anyone else had made them because I feel like it's good activity and that usually leans town for me but that's subjective not objective really. But that's me and I might be biased. However I like Magna for similar things. Activity and good questioning of logic or reason feels town to me.

I could see it as Toto trying to pocket me but I was saving that judgment for later once Toto contributed more.

Pedit: I agree with Toto here. How about you BBT??

VOTE: Nebbie

[Hawk]

Double checked I think vote makes it L-3

[Hawk]

@Creature Pepchoninga, VeeGee, and Fredrick haven't even posted and we're over 48 hours in... Just thought I'd point that out.

[Hawk]

Theater with who Nebbie? Am I misinterpreting theater here? I've always used that as Scum and scum putting on a show to look TvT.

I for one don't like this Sesq distraction cause it feels like we are trying to pull away from Nebbies wagon (which is still at L-3).

Also Nydus's catchup feels pretty forced... While it might just be me multiple post after post as you notice things feels very inorganic buy maybe it's because I take the time to write notes out in a word doc for my reference like important posts for people and other stuff.

[Hawk]

Touche' but I'm not buying it being fake. What's off about there interaction for you?

[Hawk]

Hey guys I'm still here. Will post a catchup later today. I've actually been really sick IRL and haven't had much time to post.

But from just skimming the last two pages this game with both Riley and KT might just drive me insane

[Hawk]

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

SELF VOTING IS SCUMMY!!!!!

What I'm seeing here is riley doesn't want nebula to die and also doesn't want to be one of the last on the wagon when sesq does. The "too obvious" conclusion here is nebula/riley scumpair. I'm going to try not to get all spun up about this, but this is a terrible terrible derailment when there's a L-2 and L-3 at play.

Of course, for that matter, so is Kain Tep's.

But I'll hammer sesq too if ya put her at L-1

I think the part about Riley not wanting to be last on sesq's wagon is moot here.

Pedit: I'm still gonna do a catchup but why are you town reading BBT? Elena I kinda understand from the little I've skimmed her she seems pretty townie but I'll give better reads later when I get caught up with everyone.

[Hawk]

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

SELF VOTING IS SCUMMY!!!!!

What I'm seeing here is riley doesn't want nebula to die and also doesn't want to be one of the last on the wagon when sesq does. The "too obvious" conclusion here is nebula/riley scumpair. I'm going to try not to get all spun up about this, but this is a terrible terrible derailment when there's a L-2 and L-3 at play.

Of course, for that matter, so is Kain Tep's.

I think you're taking both of them too seriously.

I know Riley, and she does just kind of act like this, I haven't seen anything suspicious. Hawk brought up a point with Kain's meta I thought was interesting though.

Also @Lowell, why are Elena and BBT town? Back up your reads.

When did I say anything about KT'S meta?

Also I Riley is new and unless you know her Alt you shouldn't saying things like this. Also you should take everything KT and Riley say seriously. Despite there posting style being ridiculous ignoring it or getting aggravated by it is exactly what they want you to do as doing so is detrimental as both Town and scum. Makes them more dangerous so you shouldn't dismiss them for no reason.

Also hold on just a second but I think I see a Grammar mistake that is incredibly important to your thought process sesq...

[Hawk]

Music Box - I thought he was voting me as a counter to nebula but

seems to think I'm scum with again,

seemingly no reason behind it.

What did you mean to say in the bolded bit?

As for reason, you've been evasive in your responses to me for a start; 84 seemed too defensive and too careful about your vote for Toto, but without actually saying why you voted him; 129 using the 'look, he did it too' diversion tactic. Not going to write out a full case as I think most of it has already been covered in the thread.

And there's a difference between him voting me as a counter to neb (but placing me at null or something) and voting me for being scum.

I wouldn't have voted you if I had you as null. Not unless we were close to deadline, which we aren't.

Yeah right here in 402. MB bolded the important part. Notice you say "seems to think I'm scum

with

again"

note the with. It almost seems like you were pointing MB as having an associative scumlean on you and one other but changed your mind halfway through and then missed this part...

Am I reading into this too much guys?

[Hawk]

Wait what why am I sesq's buddy? I haven't even caught up? Also why would I point out this associative tell if I was his buddy and thought he was scum? I really am sorry I'm not caught up let me. Atch up as to what's going on. I literally only noticed that because of MB's post I don't even remember/know to who he would be referencing.

Pedit: I see your post Sesq but I need to catch up last time I read Elena had just joined us and I wasn't truly caught up then.

[Hawk]

I like Riley, she is a like cute version of Kain.

ThIs game with both of them isn't giving my headache any relief


So let me get this straight. Our two wagons are.

Nebula V Sesq.

Hikari is soft TR reading Nebula and wants Sesq lynched and after pages and pages of noise feels like there is an associative scum tell between Toto and Sesq cause of distancing?

And Toto is convinced that Nebula and Hikari are an associative scum pair because of the defending. Also lining up lynches which really is NAI but it does feel rather odd that this game has devolved so quickly into focal around these 4...

I mean so far I actually think the associative tells are bullshit and it's just two TvT arguing on the behalf of a TvS.

so yeah I'm staying on Nebula guys. Hikari seems a bit short with his words but I don't disagree with how he's approaching the game even if I don't buy his defense of Nebula.

[Hawk]

Despite there posting style being ridiculous ignoring it or getting aggravated by it is exactly what they want you to do as doing so is detrimental as both Town and scum.

HEYY!!! I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO IGNORE ME OR GET ANNOYED WIF ME!!!!

I'm just an honest person so I write the way I talksies

Alrighty sorry if I offended Riley. But will you answer me this? Do you honestly think Sesq and Nebula are both scum? Also I know you think KT might be scum but don't you feel your vote is better served on one of your scum leans that has a wagon going rather than a lone vote on KT?

[Hawk]

Kain is just too strong and too aggressive.

No, I meant that Riley seems to be engaging with the game in a weird kinda way, while Kain doesnt.

They're do like the same thing only one of them is cute and uses words like snuggles, oopsies, and baddsies while the other just goes around CAPS LOCK ENGAGE I AM KAINTEPES AND I AM A POWERFUL TOWN PLAYER KAINTEPES!!!

like the difference is just the words they use they're both still deceptively good players as far as I can tell.

[Hawk]

I don't really like a Hiraki wagon I do feel like nebula is scum Sesq seems to just feel like clueless town to me with the early claim and the way he's defending himself

I'm leaning more this way as well. Also not to defend his early claim per say buy Riley did drop intent to hammer if he does reach l-1

[Hawk]

Hey guys, I'm still here just had a bad crisis IRL that I had to deal with. I will be back sometime tomorrow in the evening my time. I've never had to do this.

@Mod VLA till Tuesday 1900 CST?

[Hawk]

Okay So I need to catchup but both Magna and Toto seem to think Hiraki is scum and I was heavily townreading both those slots last time I checked so I'm okay with lynching Hiraki here if thats where we are going. Still don't think Sesq is a good lynch but if we have to lynch her I guess I'll look at the case later but not liking it.

VOTE: Hiraki

Also I still don't like Nebula.... But let me get caught up. I got 3 other games going and this one is the one I feel the most behind on suprisingly but I remember quite a bit of what was going down and feel confident in at least my TR's on Toto and Magna. Well Maybe not Toto... I have to go back and look and see if he was pocketing me. Sorry guys if this post isn't very helpful I've had a lot go on this weekend but trying to get back into a regular schedule so I can post.

[Hawk]

So you decided to vote...without catching up?

Not entirely. I'm just not entirely caught up as to why Magna suddenly switched votes. I know before Toto didn't like you for your defense of Nebula among other things but I do know that I shared a fairly similar mindset on Nebula to Magna and if Nebula's wagon is losing so much traction that it's just me and Elena left I don't mind voting you since I haven't so much cared for your posts either. I just haven't caught up enough to give a full read on the game as of right now.

[Hawk]

Hikari seems a bit short with his words but I don't disagree with how he's approaching the game even if I don't buy his defense of Nebula.

I don't really like a Hiraki wagon I do feel like nebula is scum Sesq seems to just feel like clueless town to me with the early claim and the way he's defending himself

I'm leaning more this way as well. Also not to defend his early claim per say buy Riley did drop intent to hammer if he does reach l-1

So again - let me get this straight. Your catch-up pushed that not only should you abandon your own logic but that you should go

against

your own previous thoughts and vote based on someone's claims (most of which were posted WAY before Post 676) because another wagon was forming and yours was falling apart? Please let me know if any of that is incorrect.

What would you I do elsewise? You're trying to make it sound like I'm stuck hammering/lynching you. Im just following my previous train of thought and catching up on what I've missed. You even quote where I don't exactly town or scum read you and I don't like your defense of Nebula. I mean sure I say this is probably TvT in defense of a TvS. This is me giving you the benefit of the doubt. If people aren't willing to lynch Nebula why should I just sit with my vote on him?

You're not my optimal lynch today but even if I think d1 associative tells are bullshit there is always the possibility you are partnered with Nebbie.

I'll finish catching up today with a full reread of the thread and get back here. Maybe I'm wrong and switch back to Nebbie for now my vote can sit here.

[Hawk]

I think it's funny that you think one vote is a wagon.

But, yeah.

nope fuck you

VOTE: Nebula

Ya'll get of Hikari and get back over here --;

[Hawk]

nope fuck you

Piss off, jackass. There was no reason for that.

You're right that was rude. Still I felt the need to move back here because I really do feel like this is my top lynchtoday even if it's just me and Elena here.

[Hawk]

So I've been here trying to catch up but I'm not entirely sure on everything and there are a lot of questions I want to ask.

Lowell do you have a case against Magna besides OMGUS? Because Magna seems to have punched some pretty big holes in your arguments. As well I don't buy the I forgot Elena as being simply that. If you are town and even if you're overwhelmed in another game (I can vouch he's in a game with a player named Chaos Im in that game too) And got confused for a second shouldn't your redux of why you left Elena off the list be I didn't. My post right above makes the assumption she is town these are just after thoughts I posted in addition. Instead you say I forgot Elena... no you didn't forget Elena.. you forgot that your line of thought included Elena anyway so you fix that post as a town list instead of an after thought which is how I read it the first time.

VOTE: Lowell This lynch makes sense.

[Hawk]

Lowell it's pretty simple why does Town!Lowell says

I forgot Elena instead of no I townread Elena one post before I didn't think she needed to be included.

Like you didn't forget Elena in that 1 minute you had included her already. This is a scum slip to me because you were perusing your ISO trying to remember what you were saying and messed up.

So like I asked. Why does town!Lowell say I forgot Elena instead of I townread her one post prior?

[Hawk]

Why does town!Lowell say I forgot Elena instead of I townread her one post prior?

I don't understand this question

Why not...?

[Hawk]

Rephrase question in a more understandable way, I don't understand what you are asking.

Lowell makes a catchup post in 889 Where he states Elena is clearly town. In post 890 he adds on that he has Strong town reads on Toto and MB.

in 916 he says he forgot Elena.

If I was town. I would go back and look at the post I was referred too to make sure things werent cut out. And then respond "I didn't leave her out. I townread her in 889 Toto why would you ask this?"

I forgot Elena is indicative of him not recalling his train of thought for post 890 and instead just being like oh yeah Elena should be there too.

So why does town alignment Lowell say "I forgot Elena, she's town too." instead of anything else?

[Hawk]

I have never seen such safe opinions in my entire life.

I know right he literally picked only the people who have been wagon'd/had pressure on them -_- and said I'll lynch anyone not named Lowell that other people were okay lynching.

Also nydus isnt Nydus he was replaced just recently for Fitz??

[Hawk]

VOTE: Magna
The fact people have said they'd lynch this but haven't voted here is just outright strange so let's see if people put their money where there mouth is

Who said they would lynch this?

[Hawk]

Sorry guys, I won't be able to play this. I have to take a break from Mafia. I have no time to play. I will be requesting replacement on all my games (only this one), but anyway.

It's a difficult situation. I'm really sorry.

Creature, can you replace me out

I'm really sorry.

Slot is cursed. Also it was Lucca not Fitz. Fitz replaced into another game with me and Lowell lol

[Hawk]

Okay So I need to catchup but both Magna and Toto seem to think Hiraki is scum and I was heavily townreading both those slots last time I checked so I'm okay with lynching Hiraki here if thats where we are going. Still don't think Sesq is a good lynch but if we have to lynch her I guess I'll look at the case later but not liking it.

VOTE: Hiraki

Also I still don't like Nebula.... But let me get caught up. I got 3 other games going and this one is the one I feel the most behind on suprisingly but I remember quite a bit of what was going down and feel confident in at least my TR's on Toto and Magna. Well Maybe not Toto... I have to go back and look and see if he was pocketing me. Sorry guys if this post isn't very helpful I've had a lot go on this weekend but trying to get back into a regular schedule so I can post.

I THINK HAWK MIGHT BE SCUM!!!!

there's no way he votes hiraki without even checking the reasoning just cos the people he townread say that hiraki is scum!!!!! what if they're wrong?? or scum??

grrrr!!! that's not how a real townie thinks!!!

I didn't think I needed to answer this. I wasn't caught up but if nothing else Nebula's Wagon had lost ridiculous amount of steam and I wasn't hammering/putting Sesq to L-1 so putting my vote on Hikari seemed to be fine while I caught up. People so mad about this :/ I don't have to keep it there for the lynch.

I don't like BBT instructing Hammers. while I think he's document the only reason to be crying for hammer right now is to avoid a NL situation.

Also not sure if Sesq is trying to buy town points for not hammering here or honestly believes we can get momentum for a Nebula lynch after this with just 2 days left.

[Hawk]

NK has some ?? marks for me but I'll try and put a better finger on that in a second.

I definitely think Elena looks like a good candidate for scum sitting on the outside of that wagon. :/

But let me do some digging some things ping'd me because of this NK I just gotta figure out why

[Hawk]

I'm feeling Nebula is scum, he is lacking logic with Magna's derailment. Magna spent most of d1 pushing Nebula to no avail and for a large majority of the day except near the later half Sesq was not the largest wagon nebula was. Hiraki derailed that wagon with his stance against Toto that drug votes off of Nebula. This led to a lot of moving of votes but overall town not staying on Neb. Sesq remained the largest wagon mostly from idle sitting votes by MB, Uzi, and Lowell.

So yeah not really buying it Nebbie :/

[Hawk]

KT jumps off of Nebula wagon Hiraki comes in and defends pushing Sesq. These two votes flip the wagon for however long we leave Sesq at l-2 and then l-1 for and making Sesq's wagon stay consistently higher as town looked for other wagons.

Makes me think that Hiraki Nebula are never not together. I think Hiraki is fine but I'm unsure of Nebula because of his logic. Walk me through why Mol is scum with Sesq Neb. Because I'm not sold on it. :/

[Hawk]

VOTE: Elena

Sesq and Nebula can be TvT for now I'd rather sit here. Sorry if my post earlier didn't make sense I had read the situation in correctly from VC.

FoS on Mol and Elena one scum here somewhere seems reasonable.

Will post reads later. I'm at work.

[Hawk]

Elena do you read both Mol and Nebula as scum aka they could be partners??

[Hawk]

Does it bother you that Mol still scumreads Nebula and did so all day one then flipped onto Lowell?

Because that would bother me if I was SRing both of them. That's some class A distancing if you believe that.

[Hawk]

Get to this another time

What'd you mean by this Elena?

[Hawk]

I'll explain my reads in my next post after my league game but as I said I didn't know the Lowell wagon was a thing or I would've tried to stop it I voted Magna thinking the votes were on neb/sesq and then went back to work. When I came back Lowell was lynched

Lowell was a leading wagon when you made your vote. Not sure I understand this.

Pretty sure it's not gonna make any more sense except she just didn't check the vote counts and assumed that Sesq or you were being run up.

I don't see why this defense is good tho. If you were TRing Sesq why vote MoL instead of Nebula as possible especially since you SR neb. Are you SRING Neb solely from today then?

[Hawk]

I'm gonna voted cause of my work now jeez If I was scum I would've just made up a dif reason

I'm not voting you because you didn't see the Lowell wagon.

Why vote MoL and not Nebula yesterday? Why avoid both wagons you thought were there and push one elsewhere?

[Hawk]

*eyebrow* fairly certain that comment is NAI and ya'll need to stop reading into tonal comments. Frustrated town or scum would make that comment.

[Hawk]

Well I want to believe Elena, I find it odd the BBT and Hapu both come into d2 and point towards Elena but didn't say anything d1 about it. BBT instructed/requested a hammer on Lowell which I can see being scum motivated but that makes me question whether MoL was derailing Sesq or not. Sesq meanwhile questioned the lynch end of d1 near the end despite having moved his vote much more than his counter wagon Nebula. This combined with Nebula holding hard on Sesq till it seemed like Lowell's wagon was gaining actual traction makes me feel uncomfortable about the Elena situation as its indicative that she was either distancing or actually well and truly not paying attention to the game state :/

So maybe that kinda makes sense why I feel like somewhere between the two of you there should be scum? I'm not ruling out T on both of you but if that's so it doesn't make sense for one you to push through on Lowell's lynch so calmly while multiple people SR you slightly ignored Elena for some reaching logic about Lowell not remembering Elena in his TR's. Like I don't mind that Lowell got lynched. I followed that logic because it seemed sound enough and his play besides that pinged me as coasting scum but like everything is lining up weirdly...

[Hawk]

Okay maybe I give Elena a pass. I still feel like the interaction at the end of yesterday is off but MB makes a good point her vote had been on Nebula and the day had stalled.

VOTE: Nebula

I'm still preferring Nebula to Sesq as scum. Neb's arguments against Sesq and in general have felt very dodgy and he doesn't put a large amount of text towards scum hunting outside of players actively pressuring him.

BBT bothers me too but I need to go over d1 and his ISO again to get exact reasonings. Unfortunately Hapu's slot replaced so many times its hard for me to tell what is Hapu and what is the slot and which way it's leaning for me. Hapu made some really good points about Elena that I was already thinking (awkward posturing and refusal to answer questions straight.) But I've been in that situation in games before where one player hounds another for straight reads and the alignments didn't match up as scum v town or vice versa so Im gonna give Elena benefit of the doubt that she thought she actually answered those questions properly enough and that she missed Lowell's wagon.

Of note the hammer on Lowell's wagon concerns me quite a bit, because KT came in and just hammered without a claim from Lowell and BBT had even instructed prior for someone to hammer. KT flipped town so maybe KT's NK was to pull pressure off those who would be questioned about the end of the wagon? (BBT, Nebula, and Riley?)

[Hawk]

Anyone want to play "Spot the evidence showing that Lowell is scum" in this post.

IIRC, you wrote a post saying that you usually need a couple of flips/days before you can read Lowell accurately.

Why is this game different?

Oh my.

VOTE: Lowell

This needs to happen.

VOTE: nebula

VOTE: Nebbie

VOTE: NEBULA

Don't like this guy
VOTE: Nebbie

same,, VOTE: NEBULA

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Getting some bad vibes with these two.

This sequence of posting makes Sesq town for me.

He votes Nebula after their discussion. Soon after, both Kain and Toto jump on the Nebula wagon. Now, the way I see it is like this. Sesq!Scum just sits back and enjoys the growing wagon on the person he is voting. It's exactly what he would have been hoping would happen when he voted.

However, he doesn't do this. Instead, he questions

both

people who just jumped on the Nebula wagon with him - it's a town paranoia of 'Woah, why did they both just join so quickly'. Scum don't pick up on things like that, unless Sesq/Nebula are both scum - and I'm like 95% sure they're not.

Sesq voters should move swiftly over to Lowell.

Thanks.

A good point and she also doesn't follow up by pushing on either Toto or Kain.

VOTE: Sesq

Sesq, why was there no push on Toto/Kain after disliking their jump onto the Nebula wagon?

But you ISO'ed yourself and then produced the wrong names...

You can't have got games mixed up right after ISO'ing yourself...

VOTE: Lowell

Lowell is at L-1...someone hammer please.

@Hikari BBT is pretty flip floppy here. was primarily absent for roughly 500 posts and so yeah I don't think BBT was sold on Lowell's case but buys into it from Magna's explanation and then today calls for Magna to help lynch Elena because BBT stood with Magna on Lowell's case like BBT wasn't convinced but did so off his read of Magna.

Yeah I know I'm not being super consistent on the Sesq Nebula debate but I'm having a hard time with getting solids on Nebula. Sometimes when I read his ISO I feel town other times it see scum.

I'll pull some posts here in a second.

[Hawk]

UNVOTE: Nebula

Okay well that's unfortunate I think unless someone CC's we should just let that go for now.

Moving right along I still don't think Sesq is scum but I'll review further. I feel MB might be on the right track with Riley not following up on Sesq and instead choosing to go onto Lowell.

Town:
Neb
Toto
Sesq

Townish
MoL
MB
Hapu

Null
Elena
Riley
Uzi
BBT

Pedit:

Nvm VOTE: Nebbie
One of the two is scum if we miss on this just lynch the other.

If Nebbie flips scum can we look back at BBT and Elena? Somewhere there I think might be scum. Elena stayed on Nebbie all d1 but then jumped off onto MoL for "reasons" and and BBT backed Nebula after a long hiatus d1 and was apart of the initial flip wagon onto Lowell with MoL. So it might have been oppurtunistic scum there.

Ppedit:

This is why I can't keep up I start working through a post and ya'll just steam roll me with more content to sift through lol. I'm fine with Nebbie today if we are wrong MoL tomorrow.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Magna Seems like a natural course of action.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Magna

Sesq for one partner. I think Riley might be the other based on her voting.

... and MB has been lurking the whole game.

Not lurking. I just can't post as often as some of you seem to be able to.

Echo on Riley if Sesq is scum. Remember when Riley said she'd hammer Sesq d1?

[Hawk]

Hey guys I'll be back tomorrow my wife just had a baby.

Of note not that I think Toto is scum but Toto is on both those Wagons too.

Also I understand that it's PoV lists I would have done the same thing.

[Hawk]

Hey guys I'll catch up in a second. I'm town don't throw our ML away on me because you guys will be in a world of hurt tomorrow if you do that.

Hapa I understand my logic was very poor and my reasoning wasn't solid. Unfortunately as town I have a very bad habit of second guessing myself mid post and so my analysis comes off very lack luster. Just check here in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69733. I have similar problems d2 when I have a good feeling about scum bussing and then second guess myself and end up leading town down a mislynch. It doesn't help things compound later that led us to a f3 where me, one other town read player and a confirmed townie are stuck and we lose because of sloppy play on my part.

Honestly I'm not sure where scum are and need to revalue. I was fairly certain Nebula was scum d2 but I was trying to be open minded that maybe Sesq and Nebbie were both town because it wouldn't have been the first time I was fooled by TvT.

[Hawk]

Why won't we lynch Sesq today? Riley I also don't like.
I'm okay with Riley or Sesq at this point.

MB and Elena are still ? marks for me but I need to go over things from before and make my case against them.

VOTE: Sesq

I'll post again soon.

I promise you guys if you lynch me it will bring you guys no closer to finding scum. I am town.

[Hawk]

Well I want to believe Elena, I find it odd the BBT and Hapu both come into d2 and point towards Elena but didn't say anything d1 about it. BBT instructed/requested a hammer on Lowell which I can see being scum motivated but that makes me question whether MoL was derailing Sesq or not. Sesq meanwhile questioned the lynch end of d1 near the end despite having moved his vote much more than his counter wagon Nebula. This combined with Nebula holding hard on Sesq till it seemed like Lowell's wagon was gaining actual traction makes me feel uncomfortable about the Elena situation as its indicative that she was either distancing or actually well and truly not paying attention to the game state :/

So maybe that kinda makes sense why I feel like somewhere between the two of you there should be scum? I'm not ruling out T on both of you but if that's so it doesn't make sense for one you to push through on Lowell's lynch so calmly while multiple people SR you slightly ignored Elena for some reaching logic about Lowell not remembering Elena in his TR's. Like I don't mind that Lowell got lynched. I followed that logic because it seemed sound enough and his play besides that pinged me as coasting scum but like everything is lining up weirdly...

Gonna try and make this easier to read for Hapa since he asked.

I want to believe that Elena honestly missed the Lowell wagon near the end of d1.

Hapa coming into the game and immediately pointing at Elena makes some sense, BBT coming in and pointing at it also makes some sense but it bothers me a lot that these two players said nothing about this d1 when we mislynched Lowell.

It bothers me most from BBT because he requested a hammer on Lowell, which could associate him with MoL and I was reevaluating if MoL could have been scum derailing Sesq's wagon which got very close to lynch multiple times d1.

This along with how Sesq didn't immediately jump on Lowell's wagon and the fact that Nebula stayed hard on Sesq until Lowell's wagon truly picked up steam made me question if that was TvT or TvS and I was wrong about Nebula.

But this all plays back to Elena and her missing the Lowell wagon. If Nebbie was scum Elena would not have wanted to be on that wagon near the end with Nebula if she was partner (reason I was having a hard time with Elena cause I thought Nebbie was scum). But if she's town and she honestly just missed the wagon then I don't know if Nebbie is jumping to that wagon as scum or not.

Now that we've gone through the days and MoL and BBT have flipped I'm fairly certain that I was correct in giving Elena benefit of the doubt meaning my top scum pair is

Riley Sesq. And I and my fine lynching either of those.

I don't think Sesq's wagon was going to be stopped unless it was derailed. even if both scum were off it eventually one would have bussed or something could have stuck out. Lowell just got caught by MoL playing sloppily and we fell for it.

The counter claim was brilliantly setup by MoL but that's something we couldn't account for d2. So this makes me think that all this just bought a lot of breathing room for Sesq.

The problem I have with Riley is her saying she'd hammer Sesq but never voted him. It's like I think this guy could be scum but I don't want to mess up and accidentally get a townie lynched. Which is too self preserving as a town mindset considering she wasnt scum hunting d1 like at all.

So yeah can we lynch Sesq? I don't see MB or Elena having anything associative towards MoL that makes me think they're scum and I'm fairly certain there should be scum here with Sesq and Riley.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Lowell

Screw it. Flash wagon this scum. BBT I am counting on you to move your vote.

coaching "Hey buddy can you vote Lowell now!" Funny how I don't see a BBT townread anywhere in your iso so that was kinda random on you "counting on bbt to vote Lowell"

I made the coaching accusation because it was the first thing that came to mind reading that. I asked if scum had daychat to see if it was a valid question or not.
Pedit: I could answer your responses but then we'd be going around in circles clogging the thread so why waste my time you clearly have one outlook and I have mine I doubt anything I or you say would change it

1) I didn't see him having votes at all I voted and then went back to work I came back and Lowell was lynched to my shock

So you dropped a vote close to deadline without even checking the gamestate?

Didn't check the deadline I voted and went back to work yes.

I agree very much with Hapa's reasoning. These also stand to me as strong cases of town and not scum. Town tend to have an act first think second so some of these simple mistakes by Elena don't seem to be scum caught. Her strong hold against each counter argument also avoids WIFOM which is something scum I don't think would do. Elena presents defense as this is how it is if you lynch me for it well fuck me I'm not gonna argue about it cause it doesn't help this situation. I think her frustration with town arguments was genuine.

Music might be scum but I have reasons to point towards Riley first. I think if we lynch Sesq here we can sort out Riley Music tomorrow.

Pedit: Yeah but why does she stick to that gun and read D2 instead of pushing Nebula or BBT who arguably looked much worse at the end of d1 and had been scumreads for her. Why push MoL?

[Hawk]

Mkay. Those interactions do look genuine. What's your case against Music?

I don't really have one... I think i was misremembering the amount of associatives i thought there were between MoL and MB.

So I said I have reasons to point towards Riley first. On review of MB's posting the only thing that truly stands out is he is Parallel with MoL for most of d1. But his reads line up very well for Sesq Riley being the scumteam.

PoE says that if Sesq is scum MB is not Scum. Only came for MB being scum involves Sesq being town and Elena being scum I think.

[Hawk]

PoE says that if Sesq is scum MB is not Scum. Only came for MB being scum involves Sesq being town and Elena being scum I think.

Can you explain this PoE?

Which part?

The first part makes sense to me. MB'so read were Parallel with MoL on the d1 lynch. He went to Sesq and MoL to Nebula. so if Sesq is scum I don't think MB is scum with him with how planted MB was day one. I recall at some point MB even said he wouldn't be voting Sesq if he null read him at the time and it wasnt as a counter to Nebula but purely because he scumread him. That's some pretty deep distancing and I don't think MB would have done that if Sesq was really his scumbuddy.

Parallel to that MoL pushed Nebula and derailed a Sesq wagon so if Sesq is town then MoL had no reason to flip onto Lowell besides he us to fester over this later in the day (it's unlikely if you think about it). Elena's attacks on MoL would buy her interesting amounts of town cred because no one else despite saying they would vote MoL votes him before Elena. This mix of town cred gained here and the very subtle non engagement between MB and Elena makes me think that maybe they could be scum buddies because I don't see one of them being town and the other scum but this is more gut than logic. I don't think either of them are scum but I can be proven wrong by flipping town on Sesq it just doesn't make much sense to me otherwise but I'm probably missing something.

[Hawk]

MB Riley still requires Sesq as town. Which I don't buy. I'm at work but if you give me a little while I can try and figure this out.

I don't think MB is scum like I said before I don't really have a case but for me I only need to consider that case if Sesq flips town, which I do not think he will.

[Hawk]

Also, isn't it funny how nobody has voted Riley yet

THAT'S COS I'M TOWN!!!! GRRRRR!!!!!!!!

No it's not.

That's never the reason, as we don't know.

Unless there partners?

I was about to say the confidence that Sesq is portraying being pressured and forcing on to Riley feels like bussing to try and buy a day of town cred between the two of them :/

[Hawk]

Riley why are you voting Hawk? What do you think about sesqs case against you?

Riley, mb, hawk, and sesq who is quiet today. At least 2 of you are town. You need to start participating in the conversation so we can you out. Scumhunt a little biy.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy! I townread Toto the cutie dog, Hiraki the cutie anime guy, and Sesq the cutie girl!!!! I won't lynch them, no matter whatcha say!!! Hapahauli seems town too!!! So that leaves Elena and Hawksies!!!


Hawk has a bigger wagon, so I wanna vote him!!!! He does nothing a lot!!!

AND SESQ IS WRONG!!!! She says I'm an evil MAFIA MEMBER for not yelling at magna... BUT I DID THAT COS MAGNA'S POSTING LOOKED LIKE TOWN!!!! grrrr!!! Just cos I was wrongsies doesn't mean I'm evil!!!

For someone who would never lynch Sesq you sure are super angry with him. If you really are town why wouldn't you vote Sesq who seems to be shading you when he's the one being ran up, why are you so confident that Sesq is town?

[Hawk]

If I were scum with riley, why would I be making the first move on her?

Seriously, you guys are ignoring everything I've brought up about her thus far and are just forming her reactions to get a scumread on me (currently the largest wagon), which makes me think scum are on my wagon right now. I think scum are pushing me for the same reason they were pushing nebula, because a lot of people's reads depended on them being scum, and their townflip lead to town being kind of lost, and I'd argue their intent is the same here. Then again, this hypothesis might be a bit too much formed by my own perspective, but I think it's important to bring up. Oh yeah, and if I am lynched, you're going to be in LYLO. Not Good.

Fucking. Push. Riley. Sorry I'm kind of angry, but I've actually been able to do some helpful scumreading for once, which isn't something I'm particularly skilled at, and people are trying to push partner bullshit.

PUSH. RILEY.

To buy Riley town cred if we flip you today? to buy town cred yourself if we flip Riley and she's scum? To push a mislynch cause your real partner is Elena? like there are lots of possibilities where scum you shoots at Riley first Sesq.

I'm not ignoring your case against Riley. I'm just more confident you are scum than Riley is. I'm fine lynching either or of you today but I would definitely prefer you over Riley.

Sesq if you think Riley is scum and you are town then who is Riley's partner. What possible thing did scum gain from MoL chainsaw ingredients you all day one pressing Nebula and then Lowell.

[Hawk]

Ingredients is because my phone likes to correct chainsawing to that. Also upon review of the early game knowing who was town that have died and that Magna was scum it seems fairly obvious Magna was chainsawing for you the whole time pushing Nebula otherwise at some point I'm sure Magna could have flipped onto your wagon. Are you saying that scum were on your wagon when you were L2 so that Magna or at least the other two couldn't flip onto you? you were L-2 for almost the entire day. If I was scum you really don't think we could have misLynched you if you were town? Riley was even scumreading you then flips to town reading you for the rest of the day despite listing plenty of good reasons to scumread you d1.

I'll be honest if Riley flips scum I'm more inclined to believe that you are Riley partner and not MB. MB was very quiet d1 and sat on you all game long, so long in fact he didn't even jump on the Lowell wagon. So yeah PoE for me is that

I'm town, Strong townreads on Toto, MB, Hapa.

Scum in Riley, Sesq, Elena.

And I really don't think Elena is scum either so yeah... like I said before I'm okay lynching you or Riley. If we lynch Riley today fine. If she flips town I want your head on a pike tomorrow whether I'm alive or dead.

I really would feel better if we lynched Sesq today tho guys. Riley is almost obviously tied to MoL Sesq is tied to them both if you take into consideration MoL chainsawed for Sesq and Riley not only was dropping mad associatives with MoL but also refused to vote Sesq unless it was a hammer.

[Hawk]

AHA! Toto got caught in my trap!!!

If it's a joke, then you have no NOT JOKE reason for voting Music Box!!

Sesq is my friend but she is suspicious as well she clarifies way too much! I think it may be cos she's over explaining herself as scum!!

Sesq.... tell me honest... are ya scum? I be starting ta think ya are....

VT.

Grrrrr!!! It's suspicious that yer claiming so early!!!

And those are arguments!!!! Tell me where ya tried to catch scum!! It's nowhere!!

I claimed early because you asked if I'm scum. I suppose a VT claim wasn't necessary to answer your question, but oh well, it's done.

NUUUU!!! IF YOU'RE TOWN WHY'DJA SAY YOU WERE VT INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING YOU WERE TOWNIE? HURH?

that just helps scum find the secret powers easier! or are you mafia? I think ya are!! I'll gobble ya up right after I eat kaintepes!!!!!

But I'll hammer sesq too if ya put her at L-1

Early claim doesn't mean I'm scum. This is a very juvenile way of looking at things.

'cos I'm a juvenile! but even then! I'm not sayin' early claim means yer scum, I'm sayin' town has NO REASON To early claim!!! so, if ya really town, you gotta EXPLAIN WHY YOU DID IT!!!!

AND IF YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THEN YOU'RE SCUM!!!!

Because I tell the truth, and like why not.

Why not??? 'cos it makes it easier for the mafia to find the PRs, that's wynaut!!! you should know this!!!!!



THIS WYNAUT SAYS SESQ IS PRETENDING NOT TO KNOW!!!!

Alrighty sorry if I offended Riley. But will you answer me this? Do you honestly think Sesq and Nebula are both scum? Also I know you think KT might be scum but don't you feel your vote is better served on one of your scum leans that has a wagon going rather than a lone vote on KT?

i dunno if they're scum together!!! i am bad at finding huuge teams of people! BUT!!! I think that EACH AND EVERYONE OF THEM is scummy!!!

and the vote on KT is a flashwagon!!! I am ready to sneakily hop back onto sesq anytime I want!!! hehe

Townread from the start?? huh... That's not what that looks like ^^

[Hawk]

I mean if Sesq really is town this is like a double chainsaw scum gambit mislynch so I guess this is fine first.

VOTE: Riley

But I swear we are coming back to Sesq I just think Riley is flailing now so might as well get this out of the way.

[Hawk]

Ingredients is because my phone likes to correct chainsawing to that. Also upon review of the early game knowing who was town that have died and that Magna was scum it seems fairly obvious Magna was chainsawing for you the whole time pushing Nebula otherwise at some point I'm sure Magna could have flipped onto your wagon. Are you saying that scum were on your wagon when you were L2 so that Magna or at least the other two couldn't flip onto you? you were L-2 for almost the entire day. If I was scum you really don't think we could have misLynched you if you were town? Riley was even scumreading you then flips to town reading you for the rest of the day despite listing plenty of good reasons to scumread you d1.

I'll be honest if Riley flips scum I'm more inclined to believe that you are Riley partner and not MB. MB was very quiet d1 and sat on you all game long, so long in fact he didn't even jump on the Lowell wagon. So yeah PoE for me is that

I'm town, Strong townreads on Toto, MB, Hapa.

Scum in Riley, Sesq, Elena.

And I really don't think Elena is scum either so yeah... like I said before I'm okay lynching you or Riley. If we lynch Riley today fine. If she flips town I want your head on a pike tomorrow whether I'm alive or dead.

I really would feel better if we lynched Sesq today tho guys. Riley is almost obviously tied to MoL Sesq is tied to them both if you take into consideration MoL chainsawed for Sesq and Riley not only was dropping mad associatives with MoL but also refused to vote Sesq unless it was a hammer.

I don't know what chainsawing is either, but I'll try to answer your other questions.

Chainsawing is the act of defending someone by attacking the player who was attacking the player you're defending. MoL spends most of day 1 attack Nebula and any case he has on you because you are "town"

"Are you saying that scum were on your wagon when you were L2 so that Magna or at least the other two couldn't flip onto you?"

Umm... I don't understand this question? I don't really know where this is coming from at all, you are extremely difficult to follow, but if you're wondering where I think scum was in terms of wagons, I know Magna was on neb, riley I think switched back and forth a bit, third scum I'm becoming more confident is you (although in terms of associative reads it doesn't necessarily fit well with Magna), and I don't remember what side you were on. I don't know.

Also, you left a little scumslip there, when you said "the other two" scum... don't you scumread me? Well, based on your language and weak case on me and weak defense on yourself, I find you highly suspicious.

Learn to read properly. I'm talking from your perspective that you are town and I am scum since you are so inclined to think so before hand. You are stating a case where you aren't scum meaning Magna or the other two couldn't have flipped on you. You're also trying to imply that for some reason it makes sense if I was scum that I didn't mislynch you d1 Especially if my buddy is Riley. You pair doesn't make sense because D1 we had ample time to flip the me and her onto you if that were the case. -_-;.

It's not a scum slip if I'm asking you a question from your PoV and you keep implying that I'm scum and you are town.

Basically if you think D1 scum weren't going to mislynch you or Nebula and that's why Lowell got lynched then you think one scum was on you when you were L2 which is only Hikari and MB. Because if me and Riley were off your wagon we could have flipped onto you and lynched you without Magna.

"you were L-2 for almost the entire day. If I was scum you really don't think we could have misLynched you if you were town?"

the use of "we" here... I can't tell if scumslip or confbias, I'll let others input. As for the actual point of people going on my wagon, I think riley was there, and so were you, and magna was attached to me like a leech that entire day and it would have made zero sense from a town standpoint for him to flip over, so he didn't. I'll have to look at that day more.

OMG learn to read. There is an IF there this is a hypothetical in which case I am scum. I'm asking if you really think I'm scum does it make sense that we didn't mislynch you d1!

"Riley was even scumreading you then flips to town reading you for the rest of the day despite listing plenty of good reasons to scumread you d1."

Again, this is a reason to scumread riley, not me. Stop diverting attention from your scumpartner.

Also, congratulations on the baby, I never told you that :p

I am scumreading you both! I'm trying to figure out why you are insistent that I am scum when it doesn't logically make sense for me and Riley to he the scum pair!

[Hawk]

Messed up my quote tags but inbetween those last two blocks us me.

[Hawk]

Is it possible that Me and Nebula are both town, and that scum decided to push nebula more as it was the more reasonable-looking lynch?

Maybe but I think it's very unlikely. I do know that if you are town one of Hikari and MB is almost 100% scum because otherwise at some point the two scum besides Magna (especially if it is Riley+1) would have and could have flipped and lynched you d1 leaving Nebula to get lynched d2 and be CC'd to death just the way he was before. Only difference being is we have Lowell instead of you here. But if thats the case it doesn't make sense to me for them to sit on Nebula all d1 like they did.

@Riley I don't have a reason to scumread MB. I like the constant pressure he applied to Sesq all game and I don't see him partnered with Magna. Should I have a reason to scumread MB?

Pedit: I can spin the rest of the possibilities but if you're town I highly think that the reason you didn't get misLynched d1 was because Magna was too invested in Nebula to switch to the counter wagon and Riley never had the chance to hammer and didn't want to put you L-1.

[Hawk]

Wait... Sesq were you ever at L-1 D1? If you were pull it up because the VC's don't reflect it and I need to know who had you at L-1 and who was off the wagon still at that point. It's extremely insightful if you do in fact flip town today.

Also MB I got a question for clarification from your ISO if you would.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Magna

Sesq for one partner. I think Riley might be the other based on her voting.

... and MB has been lurking the whole game.

Not lurking. I just can't post as often as some of you seem to be able to.

Yes, it's quite likely, and I think it might be Riley in both cases. During Day 1 she was pushing both main wagons but voting neither for most of the time, before putting Lowell to L-1, and then Day 2 she again didn't commit until putting Nebula to L-2 (although I think she wasn't around so much that Day).

Sesq is also on the second wagon but I suspect it's either/or, not both of them together.

It was posts like 306, 310, 884 that made me think they weren't partners when I originally read them and it was those rather than the later posts that I was thinking of when I wrote that. But there's other posts like 885 that could be either coaching or buddying so they could just have been distancing.


But while going through their ISO's to check that I spotted this:

Riley Cake - acts in a way that's kind of... well, an act. Probably someone's alt, I don't really care.

She's a friend on Discord, me and a few others told her about this place. I don't want to say anymore as I don't want game stuff ending up there at all.

In the first quote Sesq is trying to disassociate herself from Riley. In the second she admits knowing her. I don't see any reason for her to do the first unless they are both scum.

Why did you keep flipping between Riley is partnered with Sesq and not. Particularly considering this back and forth back and forth in a 17 post timeframe..

[Hawk]

Why did you keep flipping between Riley is partnered with Sesq and not. Particularly considering this back and forth back and forth in a 17 post timeframe..

Who makes more sense to be disorganized with their thought process, scum or town?

Town. I was just trying to sort his 1532 where he says either/or but probably not both because surrounding it he seems to think partners is likely. Am I misreading MB?

[Hawk]

Sesq, your wagon analysis doesn't include an actual analysis. What's your conclusion based on the facts?

Good point. That said, I don't really have one. Is there really much to go off of there?

BBT (town), LUV (town), lowell (town), hiraki (town), mb (undetermined), nebula (town), toto (undetermined).

Why is Hiraki town?

Editing mistake. He's "undetermined" obviously

Do you think Hiraki is town? Why/Why not?

So when you're L-1 the people off your wagon undetermined were

Elena, Me, Hapa (nydus att) and Riley

Yeah I don't think Scum was on your wagon Sesq.

Both Music and Hikari had just gone from not voting to voting you one post count prior. I don't think they're scum otherwise the 3rd non Magna scum buddy would have just lynched you. (aka Riley since she did say she would hammer, Elena stays on Nebula and then switches to Magna as her next change of vote, and if I was scum I could have just sheeped Toto since I was town reading him early game and as scum if you were both town I shouldn't have cared which way it went.)

So if you're town give me most likely scum pairs at that time from the remaining people left. It most likely means that one of the four off your wagon and one on your wagon were scum team at the time otherwise you should have gotten mislynched. I have a hard time seeing two scum off your wagon and I have a hard time seeing two scum jumping onto your wagon since Hiraki, Toto and MB had all jumped on there one after another putting you to L-1 for a little bit.

[Hawk]

Riley's post on TRing Sesq isn't scum aligned.

Is this regardless of Sesq alignment?

Yes. Can't really tell the other way around.

Doesn't matter. The more opinions and perspectives the better

If I wanted your perspective, I'd ask for it.

Instead, I asked for Hawk's perspective. Now I don't know Hawk's actual answer because he might just take yours. So again, thank you!!!!!

Hikari if it helps I would have 100% said town with or without Sesq's input I feel like rereading or upon evaluation it's easier for me as town to get disorganized and actually post things like that. As Scum I would be a bit more meticulous so it's less likely my reads should be disorganized as such.

Elena do you think lynching Riley is best today?

@ Toto I don't think scum was on the wagon because

1. You're not Scum from my PoV, You would have just sat on Sesq's wagon at l-1 much longer than 2 hours especially if Riley was going to hammer.

2. If Sesq is town I don't see why MB taking such Parallel reads as Magna. He could have sheeped onto Nebula.

3. Hikari for similar vein.

I could be wrong.

[Hawk]

Votecount 4.5

Votecount 4.5

[0] hapahauli
[0] Hiraki
[3] Riley Cake - Sesq, Elena Fisher, Hawk

[L-2]

[0] Toto
[1] Sesq - Music Box
[0] Music Box
[0] Elena Fisher
[2] Hawk - Hiraki, Riley Cake

[0] Nolynch

Not voting: Toto, hapahauli

8 players are alive, therefore 5 votes is the majority.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-07 19:15:00)

2. If Sesq is town I don't see why MB taking such Parallel reads as Magna. He could have sheeped onto Nebula.

3. Hikari for similar vein.

Hmph.

Wouldn't scum want to take different sides to fuel more fire in TvT, and also distance themselves?

Yes but Nebula went all the way l-2 before music voted Sesq...

Okay Toto I'll concede that's not a bad point let me go reread between those vote counts. I still don't see them being scum. Also if Sesq flips scum it basically town confirms Hikari and MB right? Why would they forgo Nebula to sit on a buss wagon?

[Hawk]

Hapa, it's time to vote. I'm not voting Riley.

Why is it time to vote?

Yeah wtf is this we have 8 Days left

[Hawk]

Elena do you think lynching Riley is best today?

100%

Any chance it's Riley Hikari and not Riley Sesq or Riley MB?

I mean my top team is Riley Sesq...

@Hikari are you town reading Riley? can you give me reasons as to why?

[Hawk]

Hiraki has been acting strange but I just think he's wrong not scum

Cool that's what I'm thinking too.

@Hikari follow up question if we're not voting Riley and you think Sesq is scum, excluding me since I am town who is Sesq's partner from the remaining. (eg. if me and Riley are green who's red with sesq)

[Hawk]

Hiraki has been acting strange but I just think he's wrong not scum

Cool that's what I'm thinking too.

@Hikari follow up question if we're not voting Riley and you think Sesq is scum, excluding me since I am town who is Sesq's partner from the remaining. (eg. if me and Riley are green who's red with sesq)

Well... what if he thinks it's you? Even if you are really actually 100% town, which I am not sold on, you're still asking for his opinion who a certain person is, that certain person potentially being you.

Sesq I know he thinks it's me. He said so earlier that he SR reads me. I'm asking him to look past that and give me a read outside of me that could be scum since I know I'm town so I'm asking him to give me some benefit of the doubt here.

[Hawk]

@Hikari follow up question if we're not voting Riley and you think Sesq is scum, excluding me since I am town who is Sesq's partner from the remaining. (eg. if me and Riley are green who's red with sesq)

This question is worthless.

@Hikari are you town reading Riley? can you give me reasons as to why?

As stated many times in this game, I will not build a town case. There is nothing bad about Riley's play if you take the time to read it. Not the most active player but not a bad one.

Here's a better question - since you wanted to be honest:

Hikari if it helps I would have 100% said town with or without Sesq's input I feel like rereading or upon evaluation it's easier for me as town to get disorganized and actually post things like that. As Scum I would be a bit more meticulous so it's less likely my reads should be disorganized as such.

If this is your answer and Riley has called out Sesq-scum for the entire game and then is now calling Sesq town based off of a gut read, can you give me any reasonably good scum rationale for pulling off such a move?

I didn't say Riley has scumread Sesq all game, just early game. So your question is already poor. She spent most of the game posturing around Sesq anyway.

Sure there are lots of scummy reasons to call Sesq town now. Buy credit if it is a ML. Conflicted reads looks more town to some people. WK a scum buddy going down. There are lots of reasons SCUM Riley Town reads Sesq here. Flipping either of them will give a better idea as to what's going on.

Her play is sub standard with very gut based intuition with lack of actual scum hunting and posturing. She is scum in my book if you don't want to defend her fine, but I'm not going to listen to you saying you're not voting her as if it matters if you won't build a towncase.

[Hawk]

Hiraki why are you sorry??

[Hawk]

Oh page top. Right.

Okay Hikari if you won't Lynch Riley will you lynch Sesq still? I don't know of were getting much more out of people today unless ya'll want to wait for more from Riley?

[Hawk]

Sesq, your wagon analysis doesn't include an actual analysis. What's your conclusion based on the facts?

Good point. That said, I don't really have one. Is there really much to go off of there?

BBT (town), LUV (town), lowell (town), hiraki (town), mb (undetermined), nebula (town), toto (undetermined).

Why is Hiraki town?

Editing mistake. He's "undetermined" obviously

Do you think Hiraki is town? Why/Why not?

So when you're L-1 the people off your wagon undetermined were

Elena, Me, Hapa (nydus att) and Riley

Yeah I don't think Scum was on your wagon Sesq.

Both Music and Hikari had just gone from not voting to voting you one post count prior. I don't think they're scum otherwise the 3rd non Magna scum buddy would have just lynched you

. (aka Riley since she did say she would hammer, Elena stays on Nebula and then switches to Magna as her next change of vote, and if I was scum I could have just sheeped Toto since I was town reading him early game and as scum if you were both town I shouldn't have cared which way it went.)

So if you're town give me most likely scum pairs at that time from the remaining people left. It most likely means that one of the four off your wagon and one on your wagon were scum team at the time otherwise you should have gotten mislynched. I have a hard time seeing two scum off your wagon and I have a hard time seeing two scum jumping onto your wagon since Hiraki, Toto and MB had all jumped on there one after another putting you to L-1 for a little bit.

It's in this bolded it for you. I don't think Music sits on Sesq all fucking game long and is scum either by the waybRiley but that's besides the point.

[Hawk]

Yeah, but if they lynched me that fast everyone would suspect them, especially Magna who had been defending me up to that point

Why did they have to lynch you quickly? Nebula was a perfectly good counter wagon also MB didn't jump to Lowell. Hiraki did.

Question is how much of Lowell's wagon was scum and how much was town. 4 players left on that wagon are still alive. I can tell you alignment of one (hint it's me I'm green) But the other 3 idk. I think Toto is town. Chance of scum being Riley or Hiraki but both seems slightly unlikely as that means all three wagons d1 were town which doesn't exactly sit well. I still don't think you and Nebula have the big 1v1 d1 and you're both town and MoL chainsaws you for a third town lynch. Like all of that seems way to unlikely.

[Hawk]

i'm pretty sure all of lowells wagon was scum. i saw an opportunistic hop by riley in there, the third probably did it just out of it being a good position

Okay so in that case third scum is me Toto or hiraki. Still should clear MB for you.

I know I'm not scum. Toto doesn't make sense cause he could have just sat you at L-1 let Riley come in and lynch you if you think Riley was scum. Hiraki would make sense if you don't consider Hiraki initially upon entry avoids both town wagons to engage Toto and doesn't really scumread Nebula d1 so yeah I don't see why scum was all over the place. I mean I guess from your PoV I'm scum but I know that's not right so yeah I'm having a hard time seeing you as not Scum Sesq sorry.

VOTE: Sesq

I'm okay with this. Riley says she doesn't have anything else to add.

[Hawk]

Hikari did vote sesq upon entry.

Magna was saying that nebula is scum and sesq is town.
Hiraki said neb was town and sesq was scum. He sounded very certain abouth both.

Music just said that he didnt want to vote nebula today, and voted sesq instead. That was the l-2 vote.

Hawk, not to say that your conclusion is wrong, but you seem to make too many assumptions about how scum will play and how coordinated they actually are, specially on D1. That narrow thinking looks a bit forced. Have you ever played as mafia?

Not on this site nope.

Are you saying you think Hikari could be scum and Sesq town? I mean yeah sure I make a few assumptions but is there a simpler solution than Sesq is scum, MoL chainsawed for him, Riley is associative with MoL and Sesq that's my scum team?

I am slightly concerned the longer this day goes on the more wary I'm becoming of a Sesq lynch flipping town and putting us in Lylo because at that point I'm very uncertain if we could back to back lynch.

[Hawk]

Like I said before I'm okay either way. However either Hapa and Toto have to agree to lynch Riley or MB or Hikari need to jump off and idk if they're willing to do that. Hikari already said he won't lynch Riley today.

[Hawk]

You got it Toto. Powerlynching Hikari if it's green.

You really don't think it could be Riley Sesq and Riley is refusing to bus?

[Hawk]

Lynch me regardless!!!!! I'm sure this is all about Toto's reads rather than his wants!

I really don't think you're scum. Are you serious here?

[Hawk]

In fact, I'm not feeding you anymore. I'm not going to check because I

know

that I have.

You're right you voted me and then Sesq again before voting that way again.

[Hawk]

Why hasn't the thread been locked yet? Longest twilight ever.

[Hawk]

VOTE: no lynch

[Hawk]

yo

[Hawk]

Hapa could you weigh in here please... I'm feeling like it's gonna be versus Riley at this point.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Riley

[Hawk]

Is that game MB? don't slowplay us MB or Hapa. I know I'm not scun.

[Hawk]

It's okay. Sorry town :/. I feel like I played horribly. I didn't pick up on Hapa being bad and thought maybe it was Riley MB... I feel like I messed up...

[Hawk]

Sorry Toto I guess I didn't pay attention well enough... If I hadn't stuck with my gut I would have voted MB first.

[Hawk]

MoL fantastic Scum game.

Gg everybody else.