Open 713: Jungle Republic [Game Over]

[Dr Fanta]

Hey hey! Pepper here, posting on behalf of myself and Fanta.

VOTE: Not_Mafia for the like.. two or three games we've played.

[Dr Fanta]

Yeah. Thor's just mad because of how I've been playing in the other game I'm in with him. His vote on me is not AI.

Please don't talk about other ongoing games, it's very very strictly against the rules...

[Dr Fanta]

Really feeling that Not_Mafia has been posting very anti-town posts and generally being stubborn in participating in discussions, I personally would rather remove him from the possibly scum/possible town pool than deal with his shenanigans for the entire game, so I'm partial to keeping Pepper's vote on him.

Also kinda feeling a scumvibe from beefster and bujaber, both are playing a majority of defensively with very slight scumhunting. BuJaber being very stubborn about tunneling somebody (136) on only D1 feels generally very scummy.
VOTE: BuJaber

- Fanta

[Dr Fanta]

I must have misread it.

Okay I'm day 1 lynch. Unforgivable mistake.

Also, saying this when you only have 2 votes on you is hilarious to me.

[Dr Fanta]

Wait guys, I've got the perfect way to find out who's a werewolf: Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy?? You are! You are!! I've got a bone!

No, but seriously, it's really hard to participate in this discussion because I'm seeing a lot of "maybe it's BuJaber, maybe it's Korina, maybe it's someone else entirely??" and BuJaber being super defensive alongside Korina only posting reasons/excuses for lurking instead of posting, y'kno,

useful

stuff.

I think Buj's frustration with beef and his desre to not be lynch just because no one cares is very genuine. Townreading him for it.

I'm partial to agreeing with Paradox, BUT could this be a scum player not wanting to be D1 lynch? At the moment they have a minority and if they lose one to lynch and possibly lose another one to NK, that could definitely give town a distinct advantage for the game's continuance. I don't want to give him an easy pass because he's doing something any (sane) player would.

-Fanta

[Dr Fanta]

bujaber: espeon, beefster, dr fanta, wilky
wilky: paradox, notmafia
korina: bujaber, laserguy
thor: skitter
skitter: thor
beefster: montosh

nv: korina

I got impatient -Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Also, I'm going to do this;

VOTE: skitter

Until he can describe how he isn't calling me scum for scumhunting.

Not even that far into catching up and I stumble upon this scumclaim. Too easy.
VOTE: Thor665

[Dr Fanta]

Caught up, still loving my vote.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Apart from the quote what else pings you about thor?

I can't decide who's more likely to be scum between thor/skitter.

I'll quote more from him on my computer, but to that last sentence:

In my opinion Thor is miles scummier than skitter. But on top of that, this is multiball. They could easily be opposite scum teams.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

@Fanta - considering your personal vote count, why did you get off a wagon with 4 votes to get on one with 1 vote? What's your current BuJabber take?

Actually, Fanta wanted to stay on BuJaber but I kinda stole our vote from them, so.

Mostly because the BuJaber wagon has built really quickly on a really flimsy "case" and I don't find any of his posts particularly scummy, so.

Also, I vote who I think is scummy, not who's most likely to get lynched. Only scum would want to stay on big flimsy wagons and hope they get to Lynch.

[Dr Fanta]

To be honest if you two are gonna have such wildy conflicting opinions it's gonna be tough for us to keepp you around.

We talked about this decision off-site before making it, I'm confident with Peppers scumreads (that is why we created this hydra after all, she's very good at reading people and I'm not so much.)
I stand behind her choices and reasoning, don't worry :>

Also sorry but it's nearly 4am and I've been out all day, I'd write longer but this is all I have energy for right now.
-Fanta

[Dr Fanta]

@mod: v/la from both of us until Wednesday

- noted

[Dr Fanta]

Okay, reading more. Sorry guys, Fanta and I just happen to have gotten pretty busy lately. Don't want to be a detriment though, so let's see if I can make up for it, hm?


-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

But as far as I am aware this is my first experience playing with a hydra so if this is pretty standard I'll adapt.

I like to think it's standard. Fanta and I are also very different players, it's part of why we decided to hydra, to kind of cover eachother's blindspots and whatnot.

Also Fanta is a newer player who I'm kind of teaching(?) so there's that too.

Though coming from me you should take this next statement with a grain of salt until you see me flip green, in my opinion hydra heads having different opinions from eachother is a good indication that they're town because then they (usually) genuinely don't know who scum is and have developed different opinions of the game just as different players would. Really good hydra cohesion and sharing identical opinions makes me uncomfortable because to me that says they are worried more about looking towny and are being very careful and not actually scumhunting.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Spoiler: big quote from skitter

So now the issue isn't that I created a conflict

, it's that I made it somehow bigger than I needed to, when I could have created a smaller conflict?
Do I have that right?

Yes, that's basically what I've been trying to say this entire time

But since you framed it as a you-vs-him,

you've made this into an *issue* and a *conflict* between the two of you and are implicitly encouraging people to take sides by presenting the two options. Like you're forcing people to pay attention and pick a side.

Bolded: Because you framed it as you vs him, you made it a bigger conflict than it needed to be.

Italics: I don't like this because doing so had the ultimate effect of creating sides -> people were starting to choose between you and him, and multiple people townread you because of it (I've already shown this elsewhere) -> they chose you over him.

I think that by framing it as a direct conflict (ie in the quote from you that I copied above, you exactly paraphrased what I mean by 'framing it as a conflict' or 'highlighting the conflict') you set up an environment where people would ultimately pick to agree with you *or* him (again, because it was set up as a direct conflict between the two of you), and when faced with the option, people were giving you townreads and calling paradox scummy.

So, I think that this was manipulative/oppurtunistic because you took the oppurtunity to get townreads/to make paradox look scummy by forcing a choice (ie by higlighting a direct conflict)

And that is why I think this differs from 'basic scumhunting'.

Like I've been trying to get this idea across every way I know how and I don't know how else to say it at this point.

Misrepping. In your quote at the start of this post, I bolded a phrase. You're misrepping me there because that was *never* my argument, but you're framing it like I've suddenly changed positions when that never happened. I've been arguing the same thing this entire time.

And I think you're doing it on purpose because way back when, you said:

1. I voted someone to get somebody to attack me.
2. I intentionally set up the attack on me to obligate people to react to it.
3. I knew they'd be more likely to agree with me than whoever I argued with.

This is basically my argument (as I said before, it differs from what I'm saying slightly in that I don't think you *set up* the attack but that when it happened you highlighted the conflict to obligate people to react to it and that you know they'd be more likely to agree with you than whoever you argued with. )

Which means you understood then what I was trying to say so where on earth are you getting the idea that I've changed positions?

I actually think i do understand what you're trying to say - and I'm saying it's scummy and am trying to paint you into a corner where everyone else understands it's scummy also.

-> Given the first quote in this post, either you don't understand what I'm saying (and that's why you're arguing I've changed positions), or you do understand me and you're misrepping me (because I haven't).

If you understand me but are misrepping me, this is scummy for obvious reasons, and this is what I think you're doing.

If you don't understand me, then I don't think you're actually using this argument to *try* to understand me because when you hit upon the main crux of my argument you're using that to argue that I changed positions. Like if you were trying to understand me and you think I suddenly change positions wouldn't that be a hint that maybe you finally figured out what I've been trying to say this whole time?

I don't even get what I'm supposed to have changed positions *from*.

Please show me how I'm re-framing your stance exactly rather than just generically claiming I am.

^^^^^^^

You've done it in this very post, as shown above.

You've been doing it elsewhere and if you need me to I can make a seperate post about it.

Look at your current answer - "

Thor asked the question in a way that was more setting up a conflict than a less setting up conflict answer could have been

"

is a pretty long stride from your initial call against me

, and also pretty much is now implying awareness that what I did is called 'basic scumhunting'.

Bolded: That's been a fundamental part of my argument this entire time so I have no idea where you're getting the italics from.

And again, I think this is scummy (ie and differs from 'basic scumhunting') for reasons outlined in 46 and again elsewhere in this post

I've been very clear about why I find it unsatisfactory, yeah? if not, ask for clarification.

I don't understand why you find it unsatsfactory.

You're complaining that I gave you no "out" before even trying to fulfill the "out" making your prediction self fulfilling (though I feel you went that way because you recognized that you couldn't back up your made-up scum case hoo-hah.

Q: how is what thor did different from basic scumhunting?

A: he highlighted a conflict

when he didn't have to

and in doing so he created an environment where people were likely to choose sides, and in doing so, he got people to townread him and scumread paradox. He took advantage of a non-issue to get himself townreads and to make paradox look scummy. It's manipulative (highlighting conflict when it didn't need to be framed that way) and oppurtunistic to get townreads and make someone look scummy.

I've already said this like four different times, and why on earth are you not considering this an answer?

I feel like you're setting up an impossible bar for me to reach (and like you've already admitted that you're trying to paint me into a corner) because I've answered the question already multiple times and you're telling me I didn't, and you're using my 'lack of answer' as a reason to votepark me and to call me scummy.

I'm ignoring it because it's requiring me to be either
a) a mindreader
or
b) as scum to think that what I'm doing is pro town and seen as pro town and therfore something I'd do as town making it not a valid tell.

a) You can gauge gamestates and anticipate how certain arguments will likely play out and what the reception to your posts will be without being a mindreader. In fact, I'd posit that this is an incredibly important skill to have in this game. You're like taking a fundamental part of the game (gauging how your posts will be perceived) and stretching that to an extreme that clearly isn't possible (mindreading) to discredit my position of 'thor anticipated that people would likely agree with him over paradox'.

b) I don't understand what you're trying to say.

For the tl:dr of why Skitter is scum.

Initial claim is the first quote.
Clarified claim is the second quote.

It's the same arugment. I even used the same wording/phrasing because I don't know how else to express what I'm trying to say. You're saying I changed my position when I didn't.

She has not actually shown me encouraging people to pick a side in any way.

You've already objectively won the argument, remember? You didn't have to actively encourage people.

She has not questioned anyone else for setting up any sort of disagreement.

My point is that you highlighted the conflict when

you didn't have to

, not that any sort of disagreement is bad or scummy,

She agrees I wasn't unfair in my question.

Where on earth are you getting this from? I've been saying that your vote/question are setting an ultimatum that I don't think is possible for me to satisfy. Or to translate, I think your question is unfair.

She has now agreed that there was already inherently conflict (indeed, it was created by the person she is claiming is town in this exchange)

I never said there wasn't ffs. I said you exacerbated/highlighted it.

She agrees that her best examples of how I could have questioned the player *also* caused conflict.
So her basic claim is, I asked a question that was a little more standoffish than it should have had to have been.

I didn't say that my examples didn't; my entire point with those examples was showing that it was possible to have a discussion (ie conflict) without making it into an explicit you v him type of situation. . Ie you framed it as a direct conflict ('I am right and you are wrong') when it didn't have to be a direct you/him thing (ie like the examples I gave). Yes, it was a lot more standoffish than it needed to be, and yes, I think the way you did it was scummy.

And she's doubling down on it as a valid issue to call me scum over this.
(and has now expanded to me misrepping her)

This entire post misreps everything I've been saying this entire time.

I would suggest that if she can't show me misrepping her that people should vote her more.

This post, repeatedly.

The above is TvS. skitter is explaining her viewpoints and why she thinks Thor is scummy without misrepresenting or lying about Thor's points, as well as clarifying where she's making assumptions about Thor's intent. On the other hand, Thor is blatantly misrepresenting skitter's points left and right, conflating what he thinks her intent is vs. what she's actually saying, etc. etc. etc.

So you can see I'm pretty happy with my Thor vote.

Korina: oh come on. You've got a megapost (admittedly, I haven't really read it) and you've put most of us at null?

Seems like you're just spinning your wheels, but you clearly aren't going anywhere.

VOTE: Korina

I like this from Beefster. Korina's readslist looked really uncomfortable from here.

How are you following Thor v. Skitter well enough to have an opinion and missed that Skitter and I had an exchange over pronouns already?

This little bit looks pretty genuine and also makes me think it's pretty clear that if Thor flips red, then BuJaber is in the clear.

1- If you are used to much shorter d1's then i'd expect more from you than the average player as you'd be used to cramming much more in.

wilky coming in and immediately setting off red flags for me. This (and most of the post this quote is from) looks like a lot of making mole-hills into mountains and claiming NAI behaviors are scummy. Don't like it at all.

@thor - pronoun discussion is irrelevant to the game I ignored it.

Actually really hate this response from BuJaber (and so does my other head, actually)... Why you gotta make me question my reads and shit??

Pronoun discussion is somewhat irrelevant to the game, yes.. But you're missing the point entirely. If you were reading thor vs. skitter, even if you found it not game relevant, did you just skip over reading it entirely? How'd you know it was about pronouns in order to skip over it without reading any of it? If you didn't skip over it entirely, did you like.. purposefully forget about it?

Everything is game relevant if it's posted in the game, in my opinion. I feel your reason for not reading that part of skitter vs. thor is super flimsy and almost definitely a blatant lie. This makes me really, really uncomfortable.

@thor - pronoun discussion is irrelevant to the game I ignored it.

So you started to read it, realized what it was, skipped it, and then forgot about it?

Thor beating me to the punch in a much clearer, concise way. Fuck.

Spoiler: thor v skitter some more

Don't facepalm me - there is *ZERO* in your first post that makes that clear.
Feel free to show how it's clear there and I'll immediately apologize - but you ARE changing your words.
There's a reason you had to admit that

conflict was inherent

.

You opened with I forced a conflict.
You've changed that to I turned a conflict into a (by some degree) bigger conflict.

No,the crux of my argument is the latter statement, and has been since the beginning of this.

/'hīˌlīt/ - verb - 'pick out and emphasize'.

You can't 'pick and out emphasize' something that isn't there, yeah? When I said 'highlight' I meant 'magnify and emphasize something that already exists'. 'Highlighting conflict' -> 'magnify and emphisize conflict that already exists'. So the notion that you were making an existing conflict bigger has been a fundamental part of my argument this entire time.

So now the issue isn't that I created a conflict,

it's that I made it somehow bigger than I needed to

, when I could have created a smaller conflict?
Do I have that right?

Yes, the versions that I wrote inherently imply that there's disagreement and conflict too. Your version

highlights

and frames that conflict

I think that you're deliberately forcing/

highlighting

this conflict

Like the fact that the conflict already existed has been an implicit part of my argument since the very beginning. My argument is that you higlighted it in that you made it bigger than it needed to be.

----------
bigger than it needed to be -> he didn't have to -> unnecessary

For starters, what you italicized and I bolded is *already a change from your last answer*.

A: he highlighted a conflict

when he didn't have to

I'm arguing that you highlighted the sides/conflict

when you didn't have to

.

I don't know if 'unfair' is the right word. Like it isn't that I think it was *unfair* of you to frame it like that, so much as I think it was

unnecessary

. Like if the two of you are having this discussion, it'll play out and people will think whatever. It might become a thing, or it might blow over.

The 'unecessary' idea has also been there in each iteration of this argument, so again, how did I change my answer?

--------

I've been saying the same thing this entire time.

At this point I don't know if I'm not articulating myself well or if you're purposefully not understanding me. You're like splitting hairs on my diction and that's the entire basis of 'I changed position'. Yeah I may have slightly reworded my point if I thought doing so would clarify what I was trying to say. That's a completley different animal than changing my position, which I haven't done.

Like if you're arguing that the notion of 'making the existing conflict bigger' hasn't been in my argument this entire time you're basically telling me that you don't think that the phrases 'highlight conflict' and 'making an existing conflict bigger' encapsulate the same idea. Or if you think I suddenly introduced the idea that 'he didn't have to,' you're telling me that you think 'unnecessary' and 'didn't have to' don't encapsulate the same idea. Like is that really what you're going with?

You either don't understand what I'm saying or you're purposefully not understanding me.

----------

And again, you're saying I changed my position from 'instigating a conflict' to 'making an existing conflict bigger'. And I'm saying this is a misrep because the notion of 'making an existing conflict bigger' has always been an implicit assumption of my argument. I can't mid-argument have changed my position from X to Y if Y has been a fundemental part of my argument since the very beginning.

I want that apology now, thank you very much.

--------

Please do.

I think this is going to be another *really* long post that's going to involve like going through our dual ISOs post by post which are kinda dense and like rereading the entire game, so I'm going to hold off sinking the time into writing this until after my midterm tomorrow, cool?

(Which because of weekend v/la might not be until Saturday night. I'm saying that me not posting it immediately doesn't mean I'm ignoring you, just that I'm giving a realistic timeframe on when I'll actually have the time to sit down and write it).

-------

I can't sustain an argument like this when I know I'm bullshitting; literally the last time I tried, it was against Thor, and I gave up after like two half-hearted rounds because I can't make up stuff to holistically satisfy that kind of sustained questioning.

For me to be scum here, he's positing that scum!me decided it would be a good idea to pick a fight with him after that because .... ? And given that game, the fact that he actually believes scum!me would do that and that scum!me can/would keep the argument up like this is kinda implausible imo?

Are you like ignoring this or ...?

--------

There is a claim I'm misrepping - by quoting a post of hers where she's explaining the case and bolding the opening line to the explanation.
Yet Skitter also claims she's never changed her story about what her case is.

I can't even parse what you're trying to say here. I *think* you're saying that you quoted me and I bolded my own words to indicate that you misrepped me?

So now the issue isn't that I created a conflict

, it's that I made it somehow bigger than I needed to, when I could have created a smaller conflict?
Do I have that right?

I quoted this, in which you claim to paraphrase the latest iteration of my argument after quoting it; I agree that you accurately paraphrased that. In this quote, ie with the bolded words, you also claim that it differs from what I said originially. I'm saying that the bolded words here are a misrep because you aren't accurately representing my original argument - the original argument is the same as the version in 182 because I haven't changed my position.

she's straight up lying in a wall and hoping people will buy it (which I believe she's doing).

Also I resent this on like a personal level because I'm not fucking lying.

Yeah this is just more blatantly cementing skitter v thor as tvs. Thanks for making me comfortable again, skitter.

laser:

Why couldn't I be scum and also honestly consider you a valid policy lynch?

Can you explain why you think Beefster is worth a policy lynch? I've never played with him before, but I'm getting Town vibes from him at the moment.

Do you care explaining yourself?

Beef's tone was (and still is) very townie.

@Thor: If it's a T v T, some scum might egg it on sure but I feel like scum are more likely to try and not get too involved with it Day 1,

given that a mislynch is generally pretty likely anyway first day.

In

this

setup? Mmm... This comment bothers me.

Why does it bother you?

Pretty sure I already talked about this. tl;dr is that mislynch is actually, compared to typical mafia games, much less likely, so it is very strange that somebody from Town would not recognize this. It makes more sense coming from scum, who might be mentally lumping the other scum team in with Town in their internal calculations.

Wait, you're in this game??? What the fuck

I mean I know I've been a ghost but jesus your posts read like blatant active lurking, full of fluff and fencefitting galore.

@skitter, @thor

I think you are both Town, but I am seriously contemplating pushing for a policy lynch on one of you at this point in time just so we won't have to put up with you bickering for the rest of the game. You are aren't getting anywhere and are making the thread more difficult to read and keep up with. Please move on.

"Waaaah people are giving us information by disagreeing with eachother and giving actually detailed arguments against eachother. This makes the game harder to read for me because I'm a lazy fuck. Boohoo."

While I think this opinion is stupid, it's town stupid.

Spoiler: moontosh

they're town that was easy

also if we ever have a hydra let's name it moontosh

@thor yes. I saw that it was a pronoun discussion so I skipped over it and forgot the names being discussed.

@mod I'd like to be replaced please. I'm sorry.
Clearly there is a language barrier that I can't penetrate or wilky is being intentionally thick.

Oof. This replace out makes my whole Bujaber on scumteam A and Thor+wilky on scumteam B theory I was starting to cook up feel like I was clearly wrong, at least about BuJaber. Gotta null read that slot now, I guess. Eugh.

Hi!
I was following the game since it started with the intention to sub-in whenever possible, but only to carry on with my "you were killed on N1" series.

Btw, I only unsubscribed the thread yesterday after I got bored with how slow this was going. I believe I was at page 9.

From what I can remember I had Beef as my top TR. I also had Town leans on Thor, N_M & TGP.

I only had two Scum leans, and -funnily enough- my own slot was one of them. The other one is Korina.

Because of my Scum lean on BuJaber I have had Town leans on Espeo. Fanta, wilky & Montosh, but now they're all back to null.

Any questions? None? Good!

No reads on me?

Okay but wilky is scum

Sweet, glad to have you on my team NM. How do you feel about Thor?

wilky/Montosh/Korina/Dr Fanta are in my scum pool

I forgot LaserGuy and Espe were in the game

Well, balls.

So, my entire thing about that, is that I honestly have never seen town trying to set up arguments where they know the exact outcome. It seems like something mafia/wolf would do.

How would I know what the outcome would be?
You're, like Skitter, accussing me of being a mindreader/master manipulator with zero evidence to support said claim, and then acting like it's a valid call.

@Korina - I knew the outcome would be you missing the question, but let's go with this a second time.

@Korina - third time's the charm?

You said so yourself.

Also, I hardclaim Citizen rn. I'm a fucking citizen once again, and literally out of half the rolelist being non-citizen roles, I get citizen again. I really don't care if I'm ML'd d1, happens all the time, and idgaf tbh.

So we policy-lynch this shit, right? Go replace out if you're

actually

this upset about being VT. And then enjoy getting immediately lynched your first scum game when someone brings this rage up. Or getting NK'd your first PR game for the same reason.

Because at this point probability would beg to differ.

No, actually, it wouldn't. It's the most likely role for you to get. Once you get VT in a game, it doesn't make you less likely to get VT in a future game- That's not how probabilities work.

I'm feeling kinda like this is fake frustration.

Agree. The entire thing from Korina is a fake reaction and it reads as a scumclaim.

It's real. At this point, I have played around 14 games. Excluding 4 of them, because one of them I replaced into confirmed scum slot, the other was a pure Jester game, the third one was late game, and VT wasn't a possibility that late in, and the last one because it was canned, I have rolled Citizen in over half of them. Probability would beg to differ at this point, that I would get a non-town role. I still haven't and that pisses me off to no end, because I want to finally play as fucking scum. 11H on ToS forums was the closest I've ever gotten to playing a legit scum game, and even if I played scum well that game, I highly doubt I would've won it. So, let's break down the rest of those games then: that leaves 10 games. 1 of them, I got BG. 1 of them, I got Arso (11H), 1 of them, I got vig, but because of someone else in thread, I got force-replaced. That leaves 7 games, this one included. I have played VT in 70% of all my fm games. You don't think I get sick and fucking tired of it, or at this point probability would be in my favor on a literal coin flip? I may be following the gambler's fallacy here, but I honestly think that probability would go my way at this point.

I mean, town makes the majority in most games, soo... yeah, you're going to be VT in 70% of your games. That's just how it is. Don't play mafiascum if you can't handle the game as a VT, because that's

most of mafia

.

Day 1 ends in 4 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes

Um, I didn't realize that deadline was so close.

K, here's where I'm at:

{Montosh}
{Laserguy}
{}
{beef, wilky}
{NM} ------ null
{Korina, paradox}
{dr fanta, A50-slot, esp}
{}
{Thor}

I very much want to lynch Thor, but if that's not happening, I could move to Dr Fanta or A50 or esp at deadline.

Ohoho, what the fuck is this?
Active lurker as your only other townread besides Montosh, fucking wilky

above

null somehow?

I would not be surprised by a skitter-Laserguy-wilky scumteam just because of this shitty readslist even if I'm currently TRing skitter for skitter v thor. In fact, skitter v thor might actually be SvS.



Annnd now I'm caught up.

VOTE: wilky as the easiest way to ensure no mislynch.

[Dr Fanta]

This little bit looks pretty genuine and also makes me think it's pretty clear that if Thor flips red, then BuJaber is in the clear.

Scratch this, still trying to get into the multiball mindset. Fml.

[Dr Fanta]

This little bit looks pretty genuine and also makes me think it's pretty clear that if Thor flips red, then BuJaber is in the clear.

Scratch this, still trying to get into the multiball mindset. Fml.

@Pepper
How would this change your read on BuJaber/Almost50?
Are you thinking you'd be left with no read or a townlean/read
Or could it perhaps be a MvW?

I don't exactly want to cause a head v head argument but I'm curious for the sake of the game what your thoughts are on this potential flip
- Fanta

[Dr Fanta]

This little bit looks pretty genuine and also makes me think it's pretty clear that if Thor flips red, then BuJaber is in the clear.

Scratch this, still trying to get into the multiball mindset. Fml.

@Pepper
How would this change your read on BuJaber/Almost50?
Are you thinking you'd be left with no read or a townlean/read
Or could it perhaps be a MvW?

I don't exactly want to cause a head v head argument but I'm curious for the sake of the game what your thoughts are on this potential flip
- Fanta

I'm pretty null on them at this point because it could've been MvW or just SvT and tbh there's not really enough substance between Bujaber and A50 for me to really dig in my claws, you know?

Also I think maybe we should chat between ourselves on this kind of thing mostly because it doesn't give town very much information to see us interacting between ourselves because we share a slot so like Pretty sure I'd rather leave room for interaction between different slots, and to not complicate / fill this game with informationless posts.

Oops, above post was me.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

@Pepper - still waiting on an answer about the wagon speed. Are you intentionally ducking that, or should I just keep asking?

You can keep wasting your time, like you seem to be so set on doing.

So you're whole read on Skitter has changed based purely on Skitter having different reads than you??

Aw, blatant misrep.. How cute!

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Fuckkk why is it so hard to avoid posting on main--
thesunisjustfine is me

[Dr Fanta]

@Pepper - still waiting on an answer about the wagon speed. Are you intentionally ducking that, or should I just keep asking?

You can keep wasting your time, like you seem to be so set on doing.

Maybe I do like to waste my time - do you find the question too difficult to answer?

Are you going to scumhunt at all this game or continue filling it with giant shitposts? I'd be happy to PL you.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Blatant misrep? You were townreading skitter but due to a readslist that you didn't agree with created a whole pre-flip scum team. Show me where the misrep is.

Guys.. is wilky actually this daft or is does he just play dumb when he's scum?

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Just as a heads up. I will not be around at 4am for deadline. So I'd like things settled before then especially if A50 is not the choice for the day.

Also, show of hands on people down to lynch NM as a policy compromise?

I think if we end up settling on a 3rd or 4th choice compromise lynch, 95% chance it's going to be on Town. I think we're much better off committing to pushing through a wagon on someone that is likely to be scum. It isn't going to get any easier to build wagons as the game goes on.

@Korina, Montosh, Thor, Almost50

: Neither Thor nor skitter is going to happen today. I would strongly urge you to join one of the other wagons. We will never get a lynch if the vote is split five ways.

I don't think wilky is going to happen either, but I don't expect NM or Fanta to listen to me

"You should fall in line and vote with me! wilky isn't going to happen (because I won't vote him), so just consolidate under us with what you know will probably be a mislynch! Because clearly, you're the one who's out of line for voting wilky, not me for voting otherwise!"

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Speaking of which, if anyone tells you to get off a wagon because "we will never get a lynch if we're split 5 ways", you're probably voting scum.

Laser, if you know 3rd or 4th choice compromise lynches are 95% chance to be town, why are you telling me to compromise?

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

@Korina, Montosh, Thor, Almost50: Neither Thor nor skitter is going to happen today. I would strongly urge you to join one of the other wagons. We will never get a lynch if the vote is split five ways.

So because you're asking those four and not me, my point is invalid?

[Dr Fanta]

This is 100% skitter's town meta. Like, to a T. Anyone on skitter right now is either obvscum or just.. really, really fucking dumb. Or both, in the case of Thor.

Speaking of which, can we lynch scum now? wilky or Thor are my acceptable lynches.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

OK, so where am I being daft?

Do you actually think me disagreeing with his reads is why I got red flags from his readslist? Or are you honestly daft enough to not know that someone's reads being wishy-washy-null on people that are being read very strongly by others, and having reads that make zero sense from a town POV, is scummy?

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Do you actually think me disagreeing with her reads is why I got red flags from her readslist?

EBWOP

[Dr Fanta]

They dropped the rebuttal stage or responded with sheer derp.

Oof, outright lie because I didn't answer your stupid question that didn't deserve an answer. You make this too easy.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

This is 100% skitter's town meta. Like, to a T. Anyone on skitter right now is either obvscum or just.. really, really Smurfing dumb. Or both, in the case of Thor.

Speaking of which, can we lynch scum now? wilky or Thor are my acceptable lynches.

-Pepper

Please describe Skitter's town meta for the really, really dumb amongst us.

So this site has this really cool feature where you can see other games a player has been in previously, and you can read those games and see what alignment they were. You could even draw conclusions from their behaviors as different alignments. Pretty neat trick, huh?

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Sassy Fanta is sounding scummy.

It's ironic you say this directly after I mentioned that meta-checking exists, because sassy Viomi is town Viomi. Nice attempt to make something scummy that isn't, though. Good job. Here.

[Dr Fanta]

Aw, rip my sassy image.

[Dr Fanta]

Aw, rip my sassy image.

There we go.

[Dr Fanta]

Hey Montosh and Korina, I know you're both town, come lynch wilky with me and NM and then after he flips scum we can hit Thor okay? ;*

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Actually not so sure about you Korina,

but if you are town

, you should totally come do that thing I said. And bring Laserguy with you, since we wouldn't want to split the vote five ways and risk a no-lynch, right?

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

They dropped the rebuttal stage or responded with sheer derp.

Oof, outright lie because I didn't answer your stupid question that didn't deserve an answer. You make this too easy.

-Pepper

So me saying you dropped it and you saying you didn't answer is a lie on my part?


Okay,let's dance.

VOTE: Dr. Fanta

This is 100% skitter's town meta. Like, to a T. Anyone on skitter right now is either obvscum or just.. really, really Smurfing dumb. Or both, in the case of Thor.

Speaking of which, can we lynch scum now? wilky or Thor are my acceptable lynches.

-Pepper

Please describe Skitter's town meta for the really, really dumb amongst us.

So this site has this really cool feature where you can see other games a player has been in previously, and you can read those games and see what alignment they were. You could even draw conclusions from their behaviors as different alignments. Pretty neat trick, huh?

-Pepper

No, I'm too stupid to do that. I'd like your reasoning, since people who can't see it are stupid it should be fairly simple to describe.
Go on, just 2-5 sentences and maybe one example.

I prefer not to pick up slack for scum.

Oh, and nice omgus.

VOTE: Wilky
Shameless sheeping, sorry.
Trying to avoid splitting vote 5-way.

Told you guys Korina is town!

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Okay,let's dance.

Oh, I forgot the part where I mention I'm not going to answer your stupid questions because I don't feel like contributing to more pages of you distracting and arguing with someone with no end in sight, full of misrepresentations and absolute bologna. It might've helped prove skitter is town, but I still think there are more productive ways for us to spend our time rather than listening to you throw a hissy fit because I called your questions dumb.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

yell and scream

Ah yes, more blatant misrepresentation. That'll definitely make your point of view seem more likely to come from town.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Thor, you realize that I'm now going to treat "You're better than this" as a legitimate scumtell I can use on you.

I think I'm going to go with Magua here and assume you aren't actually this daft or terrible at scumhunting, that you know for a fact arguing with skitter is a distraction and not leading anywhere, and that town!you wouldn't omgus vote me and blatantly misrepresent me at every possible opportunity.

I'm going to take this as Thor claiming scum.

@NM, Korina: Would you be fine moving to Thor? Tbh it's pretty obvious both of them are scum, it's moreso about which one do you want dead first.

[Dr Fanta]

By that I mean, which one do you think is a wolf?

[Dr Fanta]

I think wilky and Fanta are probably both scum but Fanta's wagon composition is horrible

You've never misread me before. What's the matter?

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

I think wilky and Fanta are probably both scum but Fanta's wagon composition is horrible

Also I asked for your opinion on Thor, not wilky and I.

[Dr Fanta]

VOTE: Thor

That's scummy as fuck but okay

[Dr Fanta]

Probably town, would lynch though

VOTE: Thor

That's scummy as fuck but okay

Hey you want to start actually scumhunting or being useful to town or are you just going to be salty that people want to lynch you for being scum?

[Dr Fanta]

Actually that a lie I was thinking Fanta/skitter wolves, wilky/laser/Korina mafia due to inexplicable resistance on wilky

Actually Fanta/Montosh

Lmfao, yes because my scum meta is blatant buddying and ordering around my scumbuddy. That's why I did the exact same thing to sheepsaysmeep that I'm doing right now in

what now
viomi is town so i want to wait for viomi to say smth because i dont trust myself to interpret claims

Vote NSG, clearly my read on her and texcat were both wrong.

LUV is still scum, not sure why texcat doesn't see it, and probably momo as the third.

Definitely my scum meta. That's why-

Sheepsaysmeep was killed Night 5. He was the

Town Jailkeeper

Viomi Town Nighborizer
KidAmn Vanilla Townie

Have Been Endgamed.

Mafia Goons:
northsidegal, Aster & Havingfitz Win

Oh wait..

[Dr Fanta]

The implicationbeing he's so obviously scummy that townreading him makes me his scumbuddy by default?

The implication being you haven't engaged him at all and in fact only ever refer to him for light, fence-sitty defense of him.

[Dr Fanta]

Why are we not lynching Wilky?

Cause he's scum but he's quieter scum than Thor?

[Dr Fanta]

@DrFanta- can you answer the question on how i'm daft and the vote on me wasn't for the reasons said?

I already answered you. How'd you manage to miss it? It's almost like you aren't reading my posts... And you know how I feel about that

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

OK, so where am I being daft?

Do you actually think me disagreeing with his reads is why I got red flags from his readslist? Or are you honestly daft enough to not know that someone's reads being wishy-washy-null on people that are being read very strongly by others, and having reads that make zero sense from a town POV, is scummy?

-Pepper

Here wilky, I'll even quote myself so you don't miss it this time. I know, pretending to scumread someone is so hard, especially when you don't feel like actually reading their posts. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll manage to not claim scum D1 next time around. Don't beat yourself up too much.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Fuck these wagons

Are you getting annoyed that the entirety of my wagon composition is more scum than can be on one team therefore making more likely to be town? I asked you earlier why you're scumreading me this time around, as you've never been wrong before and I'm honestly intrigued. Is it because I'm hydra'ing?

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

RIP... (not sure if lynched party is allowed to post after hammer, if they arent I won't be upset if devle wants to delete this message)
Well, it was nice playing with all of you! I've learned a lot through your posts, thank you for an interesting D1. <3

- Fanta, finally showing their face after 10 years

[Dr Fanta]

We were VT, actually. Not a big loss for town but I hope whoever the rest of you are can handle the number loss and pull through for a win.

Hoping you guys look into the wagon-voters, especially Not_Mafia.
I'll admit I don't know his meta very well (and boy is it a weird one), but the quote below feels just a little strange to me.

lol

VOTE: Dr Fanta

[Dr Fanta]

I'll admit I don't know his meta very well

By "I", I mean Fanta, the newbie. Pepper is much more familiar with his meta than I can ever hope to be