Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: creature rvs wagon ho!

[jmo16mla]

Creature will be sorted by the end of the day, I guarantee it

Well, he wasn't lying.

[jmo16mla]

his last game with like four of us ended in us having a meta on him to townread such crappy behavior from him. I elect to not let that happen.

So you're voting him because you think he's trying to recreate his play from the late time you guys played together where he was town? Or is he still just the same player, still possibly as town?

[jmo16mla]

his last game with like four of us ended in us having a meta on him to townread such crappy behavior from him. I elect to not let that happen.

So you're voting him because you think he's trying to recreate his play from the late time you guys played together where he was town? Or is he still just the same player, still possibly as town?

[jmo16mla]

Oh, Welcome Almost! Your just in time for the fuckery that will be page 3!

Oh, love that the Moderator literally links the post in which the person voted. Makes it much easier to fact check.

Fact check what?

Well obviously most people explain their reasoning for voting someone in that same post, so linking the post with the vote makes it so you can't really have an excuse to not look back at it.

This post is meh. You're acting like this is a great advantavge for town so we can "hold people to their word" but in reality, you can iso someone and it would literally be more informative.

[jmo16mla]

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

[jmo16mla]

Yeah, big thing. You can't mention any ongoing games or even hint at it.
I suggest we not bring anything up about it again.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for their response.

[jmo16mla]

Ah, I assumed it was the game before this one and it may still be ongoing. I didn't want to ask questions about a potentially ongoing game. Sorry

[jmo16mla]

*crickets*

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

[jmo16mla]

I'm willing to let go of Jay right now.

[jmo16mla]

I'm not following who we are talking about.

[jmo16mla]

No I'm asking Jay, sorry. Take your time, just know there's a wagon on you lol

Can't take it seriously.

VOTE: creature again.

[jmo16mla]

Right, and I was responding to his origional claim then his reasoning. I'm justified in thinking he was trying to look town there.

I admittedly came out a little aggressive there against Jay. I still like my position there. I didn't read anything Jay said that says he was overly trying to act townie. I just read what he said as that he was acting in a similar way as he was last time he was town, and so now he is scum. Which obviously didn't make sence.

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: jmo

Feel better about my vote being here.

Woo!

[jmo16mla]

For pressuring Jays motives and reasonings? :/

[jmo16mla]

I'm an open book.

Putting pressure on a player who was already being pressured isn't a scum tell. I don't even think Jay was being pressured when I asked him about his motives for calling mutant scum.

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

Are you voting me purely because I wanted your wagon/creature wagon to get to L-1 or what?

[jmo16mla]

Oh, Welcome Almost! Your just in time for the fuckery that will be page 3!

Oh, love that the Moderator literally links the post in which the person voted. Makes it much easier to fact check.

Fact check what?

Well obviously most people explain their reasoning for voting someone in that same post, so linking the post with the vote makes it so you can't really have an excuse to not look back at it.

This post is meh. You're acting like this is a great advantavge for town so we can "hold people to their word" but in reality, you can iso someone and it would literally be more informative.

'

Meh

'? Are you actually trying to read his alignment based on a post praising the mod for putting links in the vote count?

I read it as him trying too hard to sound town. By saying it, it keeps players and me looking for other things like this throughout the game. He acted like it was a hard thing to do to go back and iso someone for their general case.

So, yep. Was it agressive? Sure. Was the game more stagnant than what I wanted it to be? Yep.

I hate RVS with a passion and pressuring just about everything out of the gate seems to help get the game off the ground. Hence me wagoning creature and then trying to get one on you.

[jmo16mla]

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

Since when did votes need a solid basis? Your vote on me had literally none, and yet you wanted to get me to L-1.

What is the basis behind your Creature vote?

I feel like I've already explained this:(

Vote on creature and your vote is explained above.

[jmo16mla]

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

Since when did votes need a solid basis? Your vote on me had literally none, and yet you wanted to get me to L-1.

What is the basis behind your Creature vote?

I feel like I've already explained this:(

Vote on creature and your vote is explained above.

I was kind of pointing out the contradiction/hypocrisy - you slate Jay for not having a basis behind his vote yet you have none for your own votes.

Jay tried to have reasoning behind his. I didn't think it was legit. I stated this.

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

Are you voting me purely because I wanted your wagon/creature wagon to get to L-1 or what?

I skimmed the thread and you stood out as someone just making comments that are actually pretty useless like the one I quoted above.

The fact you want to get me to L-1 not only based on nothing but when I wasn't even active at the time makes matters worse. You also drop that wagon at the first opportunity, which brings into question your motivation for doing it in the first place.

See my post above about generating conversations and getting wagons going. It worked. You weren't active, and now you are. Everything is going exactly (kind of) to plan.

[jmo16mla]

I'm willing to let go of Jay right now.

What is your thought-process behind this; why did you decide to let Jay go here, and what is your read of Jay at this point?

There really wasn't much going on with it, he and mathDino were being weird. I noted my reads and investigated elsewhere. I never even voted Jay.

Jay is puzzling. The whole spill about a past game really thew me off of him. I've gone back and tred to read through what looks to be a newbie game he replaced into as scum. I didn't really see anything that stood out to me about his play there. I believe he wasn't very agressive and didn't vote much. I want to do more investigating.

[jmo16mla]

Is there any particular reason you didn't want to get Mutant to L-1?

I don't think I said this. I take it you're looking at the mutant train and asking why i didn't jump on tI bring it to l-1?

[jmo16mla]

*begins to look for luca scum game*

[jmo16mla]

... no wiki page linking me to recent games. You make this difficult.

[jmo16mla]

Because pregame lasted 4 goddamn days, we can reasonably assume Jay doesn't literally think mutant is the worst at this point, and that slip was genuine

You know, that didn't make sense when you first said it, but now it does. Cool.

[jmo16mla]

@Luca: Like dude both of the people you're aggressively interrogating (and that your whole ISO is directed to) are the only 2 people who suspected you

I will look at 1974 pokemon mafia tomorrow. Something something about Jay being scum and having issues with people about voting him about RVS and reacting the same way as he is now... I'm not voting you yet, because that game may very well clear you, but we will see about it tomorrow.

[jmo16mla]

Jmo16mla's 110 "Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!" – that's a terrible idea. Oh wait, it is a good idea for scum who want to rolefish.

I already explained this was to get discussion. No one was at L-1 and it was not going to get to L-1.... as scum, I would just be like let's get everyone to L-1 so they can claim? Also, in b4 wifom. That just doesn't make any sense for scum to do at the beginning of day one.

I'm on my phone so I'm not replying to everything, but I'll see what I can do.

[jmo16mla]

I've been following along reading. Don't want to get too far behind on posting though. I want more from golden paradox, he voted me then hoped out of the game. I still need to look at lucas pokemon game even though he doesn't like to rely on and doesn't think meta is a good tell.
UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

[jmo16mla]

For anyone confused about the past games thing:

Jay-scum played a game I modded, against A50, NSG, and mutant, along with this guy named the worst. mutant got D1 mislynched, and the worst got mafia'd, vigged, and bodyguarded all on the same night.

Jay repeatedly mixed up mutant with the worst, arguing that mutant was a standout enough player to get the mafia AND town's attention, along with saying mutant is mislynchbait (which is true).

Because pregame lasted 4 goddamn days, we can reasonably assume Jay doesn't literally think mutant is the worst at this point, and that slip was genuine. They're not scum together.

The entirety of that conversation was me trying to pull that out of him. The rest is basically useless IMO.

This is why they aren't scum together.

[jmo16mla]

@gamma emerald ^

[jmo16mla]

So. You were following the game and this was the most important thing to add?

Yeah pretty much. I'm at work and want to stay with the game. If ive ever got too much to read, I lose interest. And if I don't post enough, you guessed it, I lose iterest.

[jmo16mla]

It's actually not that uncommon for scum to challenge townreads on themselves. I will accept this if you can make a specific explanation for this case otherwise you should drop the read.
Thinking you're town tho

If he doesn't have a good explanation, will you be thinking he is likely scum then?

[jmo16mla]

I don't like this, feels deliberately obtuse
FOS: Luca Blight
Would vote but not sure of wagon status

What's the wagon status have to do with him being scum or not?

Are you scared to jump on a fresh wagon?

[jmo16mla]

The scumlean on jmo16mla is because his first interactions with you, but it was just a gut read; I'll read that again if you want a better explanation!

Soft case. You haven't moved your vote from RVS. you're townhunting, but you have a scum read... that you aren't voting.

Yes, I'm looking at my first quoting post as emerald possibly coaching you and giving you a second chance to correct yourself.

[jmo16mla]

Why did you answer 250 first, 242 next and finally 245?

While replying to your post saying that I didn't contribute anything, I remembered a few posts that I wanted to bring to light. So I brought them to light.

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: gamma emerald

I like it.

[jmo16mla]

[quote="In post 291, Mathdino"]I still do not remember my role

[jmo16mla]

I still do not remember my role pm

Ebydp

[jmo16mla]

a50 is just a crazy person

I can only use so many emoticons, but this is like...

Spoiler: HILARIOUS

Hi, who do you think is scum? You haven't voted anyone yet.

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: Aneninen
I'm feeling this one

Because he voted you or?

[jmo16mla]

@Math:

Are you going to moan every time I question a scumread towards me?

It's becoming tedious.

I also do. Just not in thread.

[jmo16mla]

I haven't had any reads on north in particular. Math, you said she explained how to read her prior to this game. Do you mind going into that?

[jmo16mla]

I'm on page 19. Prod dodging for now. In laws are in town and I don't have much time. I will try to post tomorrow.

[jmo16mla]

Prod dodging again. I will devote time to this tonight.

[jmo16mla]

Reading now.

[jmo16mla]

I'm back. woo. Ive been busy IRL. lets see what I can do.

[jmo16mla]

Vig, please kill jmo.

Dino, at the very start of the game, says you are not allowed to scumread me and mutant for standard scumtells. That's literally what he's doing right now.

#hypocrisy
My lynch pool is {dino, A50, anen}.

I would disagree with this shit.

[jmo16mla]

Jay-Aneninen

I'm going to look at these guys.

[jmo16mla]

Jmo

65 - Wants to get me to L-1 before I entered the game. I want to explain why this pinged me - it's nothing to do with victimisation; I would genuinely be saying the same if it was someone else he voted. It's because wagoning a player who hasnt entered the game is inherently pointless - RVS wagons are to create info, but what info can be created by wagoning someone who isn't even present? It's picking an easy target, and the way he says

'let's get this to L-1

' obviously based on nothing makes it look as though he's trying to look proactive/aggressive, but why not pick a player already in the thread to do this to? Why not wagon Mutant, instead of questioning Jay's read on him? His motivations between wanting to wagon someone for info and wanting to defend someone for lack of basis to the suspicion against them seem to conflict here.

85 - Switches to Creature, despite the fact I still haven't even entered the thread. His wagoning of me was pointless, and his plan of getting me to L-1 doesn't seem genuine. Again it seems like he's picking on an easy target here to look proactive.

96 - Apparent happiness to a vote against him, which feels forced. It's a serious vote by NSG, and the natural townie reaction would be to question it and maybe try to ascertain if NSG's suspicion is coming from a genuine place. His faux-happiness at being voted seems to be saying

'look at me, I don't care if I'm voted

' - it serves no other purpose.

100 - Math then joins in the voting and suddenly jmo's happiness is replaced by ':/' which I would interpet as disappointment? Why question Math's vote but not NSG's?

110 - Back to his positivity at being voted - you can see how this appears forced.

He then defended himself a bit and then gradually disappeared.

I have Jmo as a scum-lean. There's no need for Math to comment on this as I'm already aware he disagrees with both my jmo read and my ISO'ing.

You were already voting math, while making a

great

case on me, why didnt you vote me there?

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: Jaydragonking

Nice post there.

[jmo16mla]

@jmo if you do decide to magically start contributing then please address my question I asked you a while ago

ill look into this

[jmo16mla]

@jmo, when you can, could you give some reads on a few people with, at the very least, brief explanations? I skim read your iso and you seem a little like a closed book in that aspect.

Yeah, so I'm going to be honest, I really don't have any right now.

Ive liked math for town the entire game, hes posting a lot and contributing to the game. I would like to see him later on in the game to see if I can really trust him.

Gamma is meh.

golden paradox could be scum, who knows.

Gamma just made a good post about jay vote hopping and thats particularly what i look for when looking for scum, so im down with that vote for now. so.

[jmo16mla]

VOTE: jmo

Feel better about my vote being here.

This looks like a serious vote TBH

Pedit.

Ah.

We played in a game together?

[jmo16mla]

golden paradox could be scum, who knows.

what makes you say this?

He voted me earlier and I didn't really like his reasoning. I dont have a case against the guy and have missed 20 pages of the game, so Who knows"

[jmo16mla]

jmo, i was referring to jay with that second line there.

Yeah, I don't know why I read that as if you were talking to me.

[jmo16mla]

@jmo: NSG's right about Jay, regardless of her alignment. If you're having trouble getting reads, then just sheep your strongest townread.

Yeah, ill be honest. Playing in bigger games is a little harder for me than micro games.

I'm pretty much sheeping you right now.

Can you link me to a post where you think aneninen is scum? ill look at the post where you voted them, but if youve got anything else you want me to see, link that to me please.

[jmo16mla]

Can we just get claims out of both of them?

How does this benefit town?

[jmo16mla]

mutantdevle(3): Aneninen, Gamma, Jay

Looks like a scum counterwagon.

I like this.

[jmo16mla]

I never said all three were scum either, actually...

But since you brought it up, I really wouldn't be superised if at least two out of the three were scum, ONLY because I don't think all three scum wold be on a wagon now.


Aneninen is (was?) The leading wagon for some time, I voted gamma earlier in the game, and finially, my vote is on you now.

Yep, looks good to me.

[jmo16mla]

Hello hello! Will read up later

[jmo16mla]

let's be honest here guys scum is no matter what in the set of people that heavily suggested not shooting pintu

plus by lynching in that set, we don't run the risk of running up the vig

I like this.

We can compare people that were on his wagon vs against his vigging and see if there are any people that swapped over.

[jmo16mla]

Looking back, I really want to analyze the wagon. I think it was luca bringing up the idea analyzing the VC first. I love vote analysis.

[jmo16mla]

Town read pintos reaction? I didiot read that part of the game if that happened. So I'm not sure what I'm looking at.

[jmo16mla]

jmo is the best jail, honestly. vig mutant.

I've got a better idea to not kill me (; buy honestly, if killing me would give you guys that many reads, I'm almost okay with it. But I don't think it's justifiable. I get progressively better as games go on. More on this later.

So. Jay is known for fake claiming as any faction.

We lynch him. He turns out VT, we all agree to vig someone. Before hand if this happens. We also have to find someone to jailkeep. We have to think though. We cannot vig and jail keep the same person. So we vig the most scummy person, then jailkrep the second most scummy person? That way we can clear someone that night.

The jail keeper must state who they are jail keeping also, if Jay is indeed scum, we will have one remaining scum. The JK must claim who they will protect. The JK comes up dead the next day, that person they protected are conf town.

[jmo16mla]

I meant to say Jay is a liability for claiming like this as town in prior games. Fake claiming rairly helps town. In this case it can't help town. Or at least I can't see how.

Math: lol you're right.

[jmo16mla]

jmo is the best jail, honestly. vig mutant.

I've got a better idea to not kill me (; buy honestly, if killing me would give you guys that many reads, I'm almost okay with it. But I don't think it's justifiable. I get progressively better as games go on. More on this later.

So. Jay is known for fake claiming as any faction.

We lynch him. He turns out VT, we all agree to vig someone. Before hand if this happens. We also have to find someone to jailkeep. We have to think though. We cannot vig and jail keep the same person. So we vig the most scummy person, then jailkrep the second most scummy person? That way we can clear someone that night.

The jail keeper must state who they are jail keeping also, if Jay is indeed scum, we will have one remaining scum. The JK must claim who they will protect. The JK comes up dead the next day, that person they protected are conf town.

If Jay isn't scum then Gamma has every right to choose whoever he wants to protect. He'll no longer be able to incriminate scum if there's 2 of them left.

You're right. We only decide for the "if Jay is scum" part. Guess I didn't make that clear. Phone posting.

[jmo16mla]

Oh I wasn't actually trying to read mutant there.

So at what point did you realise that the worst was actually the guy that got mafiakilled, vigged, and bodyguarded, while mutant was the D1 mislynch?

... Fuck.

WAIT LOL MUTANT IS CONFTOWN

MY BAD

Jay fucking forgot who mutant even was, and wrote paragraphs on how he'd advise mutant to not do what he did in Stack the Deck, mistaking mutant for the worst.

Okay, scum is in {Anen, Luca, jmo}.

Good catch. Provided all of your town reads are correct.

[jmo16mla]

At the point of we cannot vig and jail keep the same person would be where the if he flips scum part. That way we aren't vigging and jailkeeping the last potential scum.

[jmo16mla]

Continuously calling me claimed scum when you have seen me do this EVERY GAME as EITHER ALIGNMENT is horrible and you know it Dino. Get off your ass and have your back up plan ready for when I flip Village Idiot.

Uh, vig Gamma and proceed as usual?

WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF PLAN IS SHOOT GAMMA?!?!

OHHHHHH

Dude I thought you were still pretending to be jailkeeper. Right, my bad.

If Jay flips VI VT, Gamma jails whoever the fuck he wants and we still vig jmo or mutant.

Pause. Jay, give me just one reason you brought out the jail keeper. One town motivated reason if you're now clining VT?

[jmo16mla]

That makes no fucking sence.

[jmo16mla]

To hope the Jailkeeper would let me get shot by scum night 2. Simple.

But the jail keeper would counterclaim. So your plan falls through immediately.

[jmo16mla]

We're just waiting for Luca and Anen to chip in before we lynch Jay right?

Sure.

[jmo16mla]

Fuck.

[jmo16mla]

Cool beans. I struggle in normal games because of the amount of people which is why I stay in the micro forum.

I enjoyed this game and I'm sorry I got so far behind and wasn't as engaged as I needed to be.