Mini Normal 2173 | Bending | Game Over

[Marky Mark]

Good morning all, this ought to be a good laugh.

I am assuming the whole daycop thing is am in-joke, but if this is actually a legit thing then please tell me

For the time being...

VOTE: NDMath

<insert hilarious quip here about the moral and grammatical superiority of British English 'maths' to the Americanism of 'math'>

[Marky Mark]

Finding it quite hard to pick through the in-jokes and chumminess (not a bad thing or anything - I'm glad everyone is having a good time ) to work out what is actually meant seriously atm

Yeah

VOTE: infinity

Presuming this is RVS, but feels a little thin for mid-page 3

VOTE: shelleyc

VOTE: NDMath

<insert hilarious quip here about the moral and grammatical superiority of British English 'maths' to the Americanism of 'math'>

<'Englishes'. Math is sometimes considered a language, and one doesn't pluralize languages.>

Hello all. I can do maths. 2+1+7+3=13

Is this a soft?

Probably. 7*7-7=42

Hello all. I can do maths. 2+1+7+3=13

I would eliminate this slot if all I had was the information we have right now.

Why? Are you jealous of my addition abilities?

This also feels like a bit of a cuff off to avoid the topic at a more meaningful level

VOTE: GeraintM feels like a reasonable direction to go in

Off to bed now and on longish shifts Sat and Sun so won't be super active. Will try to stay afloat and then contribute more during the week

[Marky Mark]

Thank you mod for the birthday wishes, it is my honour to spend the dying minutes of it catching up with all of you and this game.

So after trying to catch up with everything and filter out all the meta discussion for games I haven't played in, Geraint hasn't given me any reason to stop voting him - I can understand the busyness on his part and hopefully we will get a chance to hear his take on things soon.

Alright I’m just going to put this out there. @Koba I’m not getting Townyvibes from you. I really didn’t like your attempt at a derp clear with the Scum not having Day Talk. In fact, anybody who made a direct reference to that should be under some suspicion (I don’t really have a read on VPB but I also noticed a reference there from him). Until it was highlighted, I didn’t even check whether this was the case. Yes, I initially assumed that Scum could speak privately during the day. But the Scum are far more likely to have wanted to communicate and strategize early, only to realize that they couldn’t (as included in the rules). So anybody who realized this probably felt it would be something they could use to clear themselves by making a point out of it. Paranoid? Perhaps. But something to think about.

I don't think this logic really works and I think you're reading way too much into this. I do think that dk seems to be going pretty strong on shelly on earlier pages based on her posts in

this

game - I'll leave the meta assessments for people who know her better - but the angle andres takes over the whole daytalk thing seems fairly contrived.

TBQH I've skim-read the thread today after a long day at work but will go through people's ISOs etc more methodically when time allows - probs my day off on Monday. I did, however, enjoy the runescape meme. Have a good night all

[Marky Mark]

Afternoon all, got off work early

Ref people asking why Geraint wagon is a thing:

sup whats the gerain wagon all about

catching up now

btw the andres SR was kinda a meme so UNVOTE: Andres

oh wait i misunderstood that

you're telling me to stop saving gerain
gerain's iso is basically the same as all the other lurker isos, i completely don't get this cw at all
confidence in scumflip when we're 48 hours into d1 cant plausibly come from town imo

the gerain wagon seems to be of someone whos low activity + made a weird maths thingy in rvs

don't get how that is scummy at all
this is a trash cw

I am amused that people find my method of generating a random vote, which i have done in many previous games including games which people in this have been in, has caused such a fuss.
I vote whomever posts that many number posts after mine

I'm not gonna speak for others who find him scummy (still have not seen a justification from VP for his vote and would like to see one) but its the following from me:

VOTE: shelleyc

VOTE: NDMath

<insert hilarious quip here about the moral and grammatical superiority of British English 'maths' to the Americanism of 'math'>

<'Englishes'. Math is sometimes considered a language, and one doesn't pluralize languages.>

Hello all. I can do maths. 2+1+7+3=13

Is this a soft?

Probably. 7*7-7=42

Hello all. I can do maths. 2+1+7+3=13

I would eliminate this slot if all I had was the information we have right now.

Why? Are you jealous of my addition abilities?

The jokey brush-off of the suspicion rather than engaging more meaningfully is a classic deflection move. Furthermore, have not had anything meaningful from the slot since in terms of content/analysis/reads so that's why my vote went there and is still very happily there.

In other news...

I'm not sure what DK's posting frequency has been like in other games - there's a decent amount of proactivity in there but also a lot of fluff. Scum me is all about stacking the post count high to make it more of a faff for the town to pick up the important stuff, so I could totally see someone pulling this as a scum move.

VOTE: jackson ill explain in a bit when i can type it up. I believe i hinted at this move earlier but i was hoping to see more info before i transitioned over

I don't think you ever did explain this - yes, you've mentioned the "scumclaim" in #296 but that was way after this post so clearly not the original reason for the post.

Of what we've had so far, Infinity sticks out as a TR for generally solid analysis in their posts.

Stating the obvious, but excited to see what our replacement's take on all of this is and hopefully hear more from TayTay and Maths too I appreciate how rich this is coming from me with my equally low levels of activity

[Marky Mark]

Which particular part of the above do you feel is being misrepped?

Also interesting format of response - if I was factually incorrect in what I was saying about you surely the more straightforward thing to do would be to disprove/correct me rather than just throw words like misrep my way and see what sticks?

[Marky Mark]

Which particular part of the above do you feel is being misrepped?

Also interesting format of response - if I was factually incorrect in what I was saying about you surely the more straightforward thing to do would be to disprove/correct me rather than just throw words like misrep my way and see what sticks?

What are you on about? U said something untrue idc if u wanna believe it or not its on u if you trust me lmao??

You were saying that I was misrepping you without giving explaining how. You still haven't explained what I've actually said that you think is a misrep - I'd like to know please as currently you are just throwing unsubstantiated shade .

I just find all of this a bit odd because if it was the other way around and you were saying that I said XYZ and I hadn't, then my default reaction would be to just correct you rather than making some opaque statement.

[Marky Mark]

lol ok my guy whatever floats your boat
im high as shit rn and dont care

And still you deflect. I'm not sure if you're doing this to get a reaction out of me!? I've highlighted a couple of things you've done and rn it kinda feels like you're trying to soft undermine/discredit me over them without actually making a coherent argument for what I've said that you disagree with :S

[Marky Mark]

not sure how yo expect me to react?
my original post creating my random number to generate my random vote was clearly a joke ("I can do maths")
so replying in a joking fashion was entirely in character and consistent

Andres was saying that you were the best option to vote for off the info we had so far - my initial reactions to this would be to a.) ask them why they were scumreading me or b.) point out some other meaningful thing that was clearly more AI at that point of the game to discredit his point that your opening post was the scummiest thing that had happened so far. Either way, if someone was trying to paint me as scum I would want to dig into it and try to expose their reasons to see if it was scum flinging mud.

This is definitely a subjective point, but the brush off felt like scum trying to avoid getting engaged in discussion - which also chimes with the low amount of content from your slot.

I can understand being busy, looking forward to hearing some more from you once you get the chance.

As a mild aside, I've been finding this game fairly heavy going due to the sheer quantity of fluff compared to the previous games I've played (which have tended to be newer players). My heart sank that little bit further when I saw Not_Mafia's intro.

[Marky Mark]

Mark, reads on anyone other than gerain?

So, there's a lot of noise and in-jokes to wade through but here's what has stuck out to me thus far:

I'm finding DGB somewhat scummy - their ISO is a bunch of "XYZ is town/scum" posts with no further explanation or analysis. They've not actually done anything to further the game in that sense or generate meaningful discussion.

Bad thing about no daytalk is that scum are just gonna spaghetti all over themselves trying to stop their buddies from eating a yeet.

Shelly, if you're town, I'd prolly stop trying to save geraintm bc it's going to look bad when he flips red

Nah, trust me, if they feel like they have a weak partner, they are going to help us yeet it.

Also feels fairly chummy and knowing - could genuinely be cocksure town but is also a great scum post to subtly make people perceive them as town

I found DK accusing me of misrepping her and then brushing me off x3 a bit scummy too - this will probs sound OMGUSy but I don't see why town!dk would try to make someone look scummy and then not provide an explanation when directly asked three times.

There's also been a few slots that have been pretty quiet in terms of meaningful content, as I have alluded too before. I'm voting geraint, because I genuinely felt the brush-off was scummy, but I also more generally don't want to give anyone (including him) a free ride to day two without at least contributing stuff that we can use to get some sort of read on them tomorrow retrospectively in the light of flips etc.

[Marky Mark]

Hey DK

I have never played with you before - hence my point earlier about not knowing if your high posting frequency was AI or just how you roll.

Ref town!you, I was referring to how you would hypothetically act as town in a general sense, rather than your specific town persona/tone. Ie, I think most town-aligned players would if asked to give an explanation for something they have said, be happy to do this. When making claims about another player, it seems in the town's interests to provide an explanation for those if requested, so that the other players can make an informed judgment about whether that claim is reasonable.

"I don't see why

town!dk

dk, if town aligned,

would try to make someone look scummy and then not provide an explanation when directly asked three times." might be a more accurate phrasing.

Hope that makes sense?

Ref shelly, no strong reads. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, I noticed the early scumreads on her and thought these seemed inflated, but the basis of these was fairly meta-related, which is not something that I am qualified to wade into as I have no recollection of playing with her before.

[Marky Mark]

TS, is infinity scum JUST because they have differing opinions than you? It's quite often that town have differing opinions and I don't get that in itself is enough to SR people?

@Mark why do you think naked "XYZ is scum/town" isn't furthering the game - they're opinions. Furthermore, some of the reads have actually been explained in further posts

The only reads explained in further posts were the dk/andres ones, and that was because DGB was specifically

asked

to explain them.

Ref opinions - there's some conceptual overlap here with what I was talking about ref dk - voicing your opinion about how you perceive someone is inherently of more value to the rest of the town if you explain your reasoning so that they can evaluate this for themselves. It's also a good way to generate a discussion. It allows the rest of us to develop our reads on both the person making the assertion and the person who is the target of the assertion. No real downsides that I can see from a town POV of taking the time to justify reads/assertions

[Marky Mark]

I'm town btw

Thanks. Thoughts on the game so far?

[Marky Mark]

Good evening all

Marky what are your thoughts on the Jackson slot so far

Tbqh I didn't really have any strong reads either way on the slot prior to the last few pages. I do think that him calling out dk over discrediting and hypocrisy is valid/helpful and chimes with my own earlier posts ref dk. I thought him calling out VP earlier in 275 was fairly valid.

Speaking of dk....

mark frankly

I dont care.
If u have anything substantial to ask me feel free but when im stating factual information i dont care to accept the premise that im wrong thx

Claiming someone is misrepping you with 0 explanation of why they are is not stating factual information. This is so patently obvious that I can only assume you are reaction fishing or deflecting.

Also they still haven't said shit about why I was scummy about the reaction test when they said they had a whole heckin' case on me

holy fuck because clearly ur intentions were to not get scumread for fakeclaiming lmfao

i have a feelign ur just bad town because ur takes are just so astronomically bad i feel like as scum being informed u would never actually say things these bad.

Stuff like this (I picked this one, but there were plenty to pick from) is really quite abrasive, especially when it is cmpletely devoid of any evidence or reasoning. Let's respect each other please

Here's what is on my mind atm:

-DK is not acting in the town's interests eg deflecting direct questions from other players, discrediting other players with completely unsubstantiated accusations. I think part of this is playstyle, but not all of it.
-Geraint's logic ref d1 being pointless is evidently not true, as has been pointed out by others but I'm finding it hard to get a feel for his slot more generally. Despite not being a fan of meta, I've had a look at a couple of his other games where he's acted similar to this game as both alignments. This is starting to make me start to question my scumread on him. I am also not loving DGB being on his wagon (see below)
-We have a decent number of lurky players in this game - while some may well be scum, it seems unlikely they all are (stating the obvious here I know). Of this subgroup, having revised my read on Geraint, I think DGB is probs the scummiest imo, for reasons I've gone over before. As I've said before, I don't want to give people a free ride to d2 without being an active participant today.

For the time being I think VOTE: DGB is the best option. This is primarily intended as a vote based on the fact I find the slot scummy but will also hopefully as an incentive for them to engage more. While there has been a fair bit of fluff in this game, I think 553 is an oversimplification - there is enough going on to be able to pick things out worthy of discussion.

Fwiw, I also want to

FOS DK

. This has kinda been covered above, but the way she is playing is too far from the town's interests, even given her posting style.

[Marky Mark]

how is it far from town interests? do u know what words mean?

Avoiding/deflecting questions aimed at getting you to explain your reasoning is not in the town's interests as it prevents other players from understanding where your reasoning was coming from and deciding for themselves whether it was reasonable. What legitimate motives could a town player have to deflect a reasonable question about their reasons for making a particular claim/accusation?

ur literally pushing someone whos LHF(scum or not) and ur trying to talk to me about going against "town interest".

what is ur point?

ur fosing ppl for activity levels and yet ur avoiding zdenek?



once again i am being held to higher standards than everyone else bc apparently i have to explain literally everything and everyone else gets a free pass!!!!!!! sick of it!!!

Not familiar with LHF as an acronym sorry?
Again, I feel like you are being deliberately false here. I've explained why I find you scummy and have FOsed you and it's pretty far removed from zdenek. If zdenek refuses to answer a direct question 4x in a row while simultaneously undermining/discrediting people in a completely unsubstantiated way then I may consider laying an FOS on him too.

This isn't personal and I can see you feel frustrated over this :S - I don't think expecting people to explain their accusations when asked repeatedly is a massively high bar to hold people to.

mark be real with me do u actually fos me bc thats hilarious if u do for the reasons u listed like ur trying to twist that me being annoyed at being blatantly misrepped is scummy.

can there be 4 scum in a mini?

That question is clearly asked in bad faith - I've made it pretty clear it was a serious FOS.
If me allegedly misrepping you was that blatant, then you could've just explained it one of the many times you were prompted
Would love it if you could watch the tone of your posts too please - I can see you disagree with me and are frustrated but there's no need to be so abrasive - we're here playing a game

ZDenek - what's an 86?

[Marky Mark]

Ah right. Makes sense - as does the logic of holding onto a more active/engaged player over a lurker should they be even in terms of scumminess otherwise.

[Marky Mark]

ok maybe consider what ur asking is nonsense and u should move on? Bc clearly im not gonna elaborate unless u make a more concise question that i havent answered bc i feel ive answered it efficiently with my actions already.

I refute your point that I haven't been being concise - the question is simply this (and always has been): In what manner do you think I'm misrepping you?

honestly im stressed a lot irl and not in the mood for this kinda dumb fight over semantics so drop it unless u have a point bc the more u push it the less i feel ur town

I'm genuinely sorry to hear you are stressed. I'm not in the habit of picking fights for the sake of things, but I hope you can understand why I would continue to push a point until I get a straight answer if you keep on deflecting me. Ref "the more u push it the less i feel ur town" in particular, why are you telling me this directly, other than to try to get me to back off by threatening to scumread me if I don't?

I'm heading to bed, but happy to pick up any points people want to throw my way tomorrow. Goodnight all, and thankyou for the pleasure of your company

[Marky Mark]

Morning all, quick phone post before I rush off to work - more this evening.

DK explaining what misrep means != explaining what I said that she believes to be a misrep. I've pursued this fairly doggedly, because I'm not a fan of people just flinging stuff to see what sticks without having to justify themselves, but I realise I am in danger of missing stuff in the wider game by trying to chase down dkisms at this point.

I can see why the wagon on math is a thing. It's true that they are coasting a bit and that they are the type of player likely to respond to pressure, but there's deffo scummier and lurkier players out there imo. I don't think math will win any awards for scumhunting (sorry!) but there has at least been some deeper scrutiny in their posts eg them picking up on infinity changing their reasons for voting BP.

Thanks Taylor for your post encouraging common decency - let's do right by each other

Cross posted with geraint but probs ought to go do some work so will mull over what he's just said

[Marky Mark]

DK explaining what misrep means != explaining what I said that she believes to be a misrep. I've pursued this fairly doggedly, because I'm not a fan of people just flinging stuff to see what sticks without having to justify themselves, but I realise I am in danger of missing stuff in the wider game by trying to chase down dkisms at this point.

wait mark do you SR koba or just dislike their playstyle

Yes.

To explain that in slightly more detail:
-I think

part

of her deflection/evasion of scrutiny and discrediting of others is potentially playstyle, but I think the extent to which she is taking it is scummy, along with some other tells, such as threatening to scumread me if I didn't back off her.
-I find some of her posts quite abrasive as many are quite personal/emotive, but I am not scumreading/FOSing her for that reason.

DK explaining what misrep means != explaining what I said that she believes to be a misrep. I've pursued this fairly doggedly, because I'm not a fan of people just flinging stuff to see what sticks without having to justify themselves, but I realise I am in danger of missing stuff in the wider game by trying to chase down dkisms at this point.

wait mark do you SR koba or just dislike their playstyle

Also, co-sign this. Vote or shut up about Koba's play style.

I hope I've been fairly clear that I find them scummy and FOSed them in 631. I can only vote for one person at a time and at this stage, I think the DGB vote achieves more (there's certainly no shortage of posts from dk).

[Marky Mark]

There is certainly scum in the pool of people demanding wagon LOGIC, regardless of Math's alignment.

D1 is stagnating and a flash wagon was definitely called for. People crying it's not a wall case are not convincing.

Infinity, what's your take on Taylor's reaction here?

This is valid - not the wagon I'd have chosen but Math is certainly not a townread right now (I would sort him as nullish) and it's already served a purpose of generating some discussion/disagreement.

[Marky Mark]

Like, I want andres to be town here, but I'm not seeing as much fire in the belly as I might expect. I don't know what his D1 play is usually like though.

Have you only experienced playing with him from D2 onwards (eg via replacement)?

[Marky Mark]

I think DKKoba is scum

Why? Any reads on the other players?

[Marky Mark]

@VP - fair enough that makes sense. I shall look forward to the fireworks from him later on then

I've not seen anything from andres that is giving me major cause for suspicion, although I would find it useful to understand why he finds zdenek scummy in particular rather than any of the other low-activity slots.

[Marky Mark]

I think Mark is way over focused on how Koba brushed him off. And I can’t say that I TR that.

@Marky Mark, can you maybe defend your original point a bit more? As in what posts from Koba specifically make you think that Koba is trying to overpost to “hide the important things”? And have you considered that another player might not approach Scum the way you do?

So in 348 I raised a couple of observations: the one you have mentioned ref generating high volumes of fluff and also the fact that she voted jackson while promising to follow up with an explanation, but that explanation never came.

When dk claimed I was misrepping her it wasn't clear which of the above two points she was referring to, or even how it misrepped her, as they were both observations. I was keen to understand this. This could've been answered in a sentence, so when she decided to deflect the matter it seemed worth pursuing as it was interesting in itself that she had decided not to answer what seemed like a very straightforward question.

As a side note, I am not suggesting all or even any scum play the same way as I do (and if they did they probs wouldn't get very far as my scum game is pretty lacking ). I thought it was a useful observation to point out the behavior though, as it might not have been an angle that others had considered. Posting high volumes of fluff is rarely in the town's interests IMO as it makes it more difficult to grasp the important stuff, but that doesn't mean anyone who does it is auto-scum. Correlation but not necessarily causation.

[Marky Mark]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

Some people were SRing math since his first reads post, iirc shelly called it out as consensusy but others were certianly also SRing the slot. As I've said before, wouldn't be my first choice for a wagon but I think the reasons people were SRing him had been fairly well articulated by the time the wagon formed.

[Marky Mark]

@Marky Mark but Koba did say that they thought that Jackson’s retraction of their test was off yeah? I mean I caught it, and I agree. So they might not have provided tremendous detail, but they did explain it. I’ll give you some background - Koba is not the type of player from my experience that will spend a great deal of time putting everything down. And that’s a play style thing. I understand why some players look for detailed explanations. As you can already tell, I tend to provide them. But not everybody plays like that and it doesn’t mean the play is less effective.

Cross-posted with you, yeah I raised the point as I was kinda expecting a more thorough explanation (or at least that was how I understood her post when I read it) and I then wasn't sure if this was what she thought I was misrepping her over. At any rate, the key thing from that interaction was not the initial point but the fact she then went to far greater lengths to deflect then to provide a simple answer to the question.

[Marky Mark]

@Andres Idk - I think it's worth being fairly dogmatic sometimes if someone is going to great lengths to avoid giving a straight answer to a question. At the expense of repeating myself, it felt like a reach and I wanted to get to the bottom of it. It led to some interesting responses including the "if you keep pushing me, I'll SR you" (I'm paraphrasing here) threat, which strengthened my SR on her.

Obviously it's a balancing act and what I see as being dogmatic, others might see as tunneling or getting bogged down. There's definitely a balance to be had and that was why I started to look into other stuff very recently when it became clear I was not going to get any further with it

[Marky Mark]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

Some people were SRing math since his first reads post, iirc shelly called it out as consensusy but others were certianly also SRing the slot. As I've said before, wouldn't be my first choice for a wagon but I think the reasons people were SRing him had been fairly well articulated by the time the wagon formed.

I do recall there being multiple people that were asking for paragraphs to try and understand why Math was being SR. And as Math actually correctly pointed out, shellyc was SR’ing Math for something they did as Town as well. I would have liked to see folks putting votes down perhaps reinforcing their reasoning a bit. That would have created some real pressure. Semi-naked votes all bunched up don’t tend to have the same effect I feel.

I get it, but due to the inherent nature of why people were SRing him, eg being consenus-y and lurky, I can't see people being able to write tonnes on stuff on why he's been scummy. It's one of those slots that you pressure to try to get a response out of and use that to make a more meaningful read.

[Marky Mark]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

Some people were SRing math since his first reads post, iirc shelly called it out as consensusy but others were certianly also SRing the slot. As I've said before, wouldn't be my first choice for a wagon but I think the reasons people were SRing him had been fairly well articulated by the time the wagon formed.

I do recall there being multiple people that were asking for paragraphs to try and understand why Math was being SR. And as Math actually correctly pointed out, shellyc was SR’ing Math for something they did as Town as well. I would have liked to see folks putting votes down perhaps reinforcing their reasoning a bit. That would have created some real pressure. Semi-naked votes all bunched up don’t tend to have the same effect I feel.

I get it, but due to the inherent nature of why people were SRing him, eg being consenus-y and lurky, I can't see people being able to write tonnes on stuff on why he's been scummy. It's one of those slots that you pressure to try to get a response out of and use that to make a more meaningful read.

[Marky Mark]

Yup, so my internet hung and then kicked back into action. Apologies for the random duplicate post

[Marky Mark]

Good evening all and Happy Birthday JV!

Welcome Gamma Emerald, thank you for stepping in to keep the game going

831 from DGB is much appreciated and looks like there is plenty there to unpack - I've had a brief look over it for now and will look through the links more thoroughly at the weekend when I have time.

The point Andres makes in 845 ref the large pool of hard to read players is on the money -> to me, finishing D1 in a good place includes having more engagement from that pool so that we are able to make a more informed read on those slots going into D2.

The interaction between Geraint | Not_mafia is noteworthy here, as is other players' views towards the pair of them:

I've not played with SCum Not Mafia. I have a hige fear the game they are scum, their playstyle will just let them coast through the game for ages and ages

I'm not sure how self-aware this post is (it may be deliberately ironic), but Geraint is basically also describing himself here.

Geraint is locktown

Why? Having looked at a couple of his previous games, I certainly don't find him as scummy as I initially did as I can see the lack of engagement in D1 is in character, but I don't see anything in his posts that marks him as town.

@DGB - what differentiates Not_Mafia (top of your townreads) from Geraint (in your scumreads)? Other players' reads have varied for those two, but those that I have been able to find tend to have read both of them as being in a similar place in terms of alignment. IMO they are both in a similar place of engaging with the game in a very limited manner and being very blatant about it although Not_Mafia takes this further.

[Marky Mark]

not mafia isnt actually playing the game they just purposefully post the bare minimum to annoy ppl and yet we still allow them to play like this (((:

I'm not opposed to yeeting them because I really don't like condoning shit behavior

I'm all for reducing the amount of guesswork in the game and would favour an elim on a less active/engaged slot over a more active one if all other things were even in terms of scuminess.

That being said, we have over a week of time left in D1 should we need it so we don't need to be overly worrying about this at this point (I'm not saying you necessarily are )

[Marky Mark]

Generally no

So how does someone read this slot? I mean I guess we can wait a day for a cop or a vig. But that's annoying

Relevant to the above ref hard-to-read players - I would've thought using PRs (vig especially) would be more effective on scummier but more active slots rather than high variance slots. Idk if there's an accepted meta on this though.

[Marky Mark]

And on that enlightened note from N_M, I'm going to call it a night. Will have limited availability tomorrow but will try and stay afloat and then will look through things more thoroughly at the weekend.

[Marky Mark]

Hey all, hope everyone's well

So I've had a longish day at work and have now checked the page to find another 10 pages have sprung up

Tbqh this game has been a massive step up in terms of post count/frequency from the games I've played before and I'm struggling to stay afloat during the week due to work etc. I'll have a thorough look at the game tomorrow and try to get my head around the new developments.

[Marky Mark]

*clarification - As in tomorrow IRL, I'm not planning on waiting until D2 to do any further analysis

[Marky Mark]

Hello all

So I've caught up to the present, I'll drop my immediate take on what's gone down over the last 10 pages and will then leaf over things a bit more slowly over the course of the weekend.

Pages ~35-40 is a lot of reminiscing and fairly thin on actual game stuff, and I totally get that, as I'm sure for many of you here that is a big part of the appeal of playing, but it does make it harder to pick through the game and find the important stuff.

Welcome to FL and thanks for replacing in.

DGB posts of note

@DGB - what differentiates Not_Mafia (top of your townreads) from Geraint (in your scumreads)? Other players' reads have varied for those two, but those that I have been able to find tend to have read both of them as being in a similar place in terms of alignment. IMO they are both in a similar place of engaging with the game in a very limited manner and being very blatant about it although Not_Mafia takes this further.

I'm soulmason with Not_Mafia.

Geraint is a one-note whining machine moping about playing the game he signed up for, it's all excuses. Just lazy scum AtE.

DGB has made it clear she doesn't believe in meta, so I find her TRing N_M on the basis of being soulmasons (ie relationship outside of the immediate game) a bit off.

Ok you guys can just eliminate me straight up day 1, I hope that'll shut you all up forever about neta

I can the nonchalance about being lynched coming from a place of scum trying to look town. Obviously subjective tho

That Gamma vote on N_M

I think Gamma parking their vote on N_M as an initial act was fine. It served a purpose (pressure on an inactive and hard to read player) and N_M was not remotely close to being hammered. As a result, 899 from DK and 906 from Taylor look opportunistic where they call it out as scummy/bad.

Further to the above, DK claims in 909 that she is on the lookout for people trying to push LHF...

Im always on the lookout for whoever is trying to push LHF

... but she herself voted Geraint a couple of pages earlier, which is a wagon based on very similar principles (ie pressuring an inactive & hard to read player)

lets try this VOTE: geraintm

Additionally, VP made it clear in 882 that he was not against a N_M. DK did not comment on this, but then called out the Gamma Emerald vote, which shares a similar sentiment.

I'd be keen to hear from DK and/or Taylor why they felt a vote on N_M was bad in the circumstances. Taylor has also spoken out against a geraint vote, so she is at least consistent in her attitude towards low activity/engagement players, but would love to know why DK felt that voting Geraint was ok, but Gamma voting N_M wasn't.

[Marky Mark]

Some other thoughts

-1034 by Taylor asking what vote # the JV wagon was on feels like scum trying to look town (JV was nowhere near hammer so I'm not convinced she was legitimately worried that her vote could put him dangerously close)
-1094 where FL claims to be a 2-Shot doc -> I'm presuming you aren't actually claiming here but that it's some sort of in-joke?
-That page where JV talked us through his mental state inc his relationship with death-tunnels felt town, as many others have already said.
-I feel like FL is reading way too much into the fake informed claim, but NAI

Zdenek's contribution and others' reaction to it

Around page 28, I think that Taylor is scum telling us Math is town.

This is not a remotely new argument, which makes me question DKs assertion in 1157 that his tone comes off as independent, especially when it was an argument that DK herself made earlier:

weird bc ur sudden defense of math gives me scum vibes from you instead

DGB also TRing the slot after that post doesn't fill me with confidence, but that bit is a bit more circumstantial

[Marky Mark]

EBWOP

Additionally, VP made it clear in 882 that he was not

against a N_M

. in 1185 ouught to have read "a N_M

elimination

"

[Marky Mark]

In terms of where my reads are at RN having caught up to the present:

Towny:

Andres
Gamma

Weak town:

JV
Infinity, to a lesser extent. He is nullish for me in terms of alignment, but he is clearly trying to facilitate the game state progressing.

True null, ie active/engaged but I don't have a strong read on them either way (ie I really ought to look at these slots more thoroughly as not a great deal from them has stuck out to me):

VP
Taylor
FL/Math

Null due to inactivity/not enough to form a read from

N_M
Geraint (somewhat scummier than N_M, but I have realized from looking at his other games that his behaviour is consistent with how he behaves as both alignments elsewhere).

Scummy:

DK
DGB (scummier, but with less certainty as there's less to go off for her).

Zdenek I am finding hard to place in the above, he shares some similarities with DGB in that he lurking in plain sight and not a N_M/Geraint style lurker. Tbqh, I am very wary of people coasting through and forcing us to guess their alignment later on off a limited pool of info, which makes me wary of the lurker slots including him.

I am happy to listen to the more experienced players here in terms of what has historically proven to be effective, but I think we need to have a coherent plan of what we are going to do about low activity slots (ie N_M, Geraint, Zdenek, DGB) that are currently coasting as we could quite conceiveably get to D2 and have 4 players in the pool that have very little for us to make a read off. I am voting DGB due to scumminess and my vote on her will hopefully also provide some utility in terms of encouraging her to engage more, but I am happy to be pragmatic and collaborate to apply pressure on another low-activity player like Zdenek

if we think the pressure would actually lead to something useful

[Marky Mark]

In terms of where my reads are at RN having caught up to the present:

Towny:

Andres
Gamma

Weak town:

JV
Infinity, to a lesser extent. He is nullish for me in terms of alignment, but he is clearly trying to facilitate the game state progressing.

True null, ie active/engaged but I don't have a strong read on them either way (ie I really ought to look at these slots more thoroughly as not a great deal from them has stuck out to me):

VP
Taylor
FL/Math

Null due to inactivity/not enough to form a read from

N_M
Geraint (somewhat scummier than N_M, but I have realized from looking at his other games that his behaviour is consistent with how he behaves as both alignments elsewhere).

Scummy:

DK
DGB (scummier, but with less certainty as there's less to go off for her).

Zdenek I am finding hard to place in the above, he shares some similarities with DGB in that he lurking in plain sight and not a N_M/Geraint style lurker. Tbqh, I am very wary of people coasting through and forcing us to guess their alignment later on off a limited pool of info, which makes me wary of the lurker slots including him.

I am happy to listen to the more experienced players here in terms of what has historically proven to be effective, but I think we need to have a coherent plan of what we are going to do about low activity slots (ie N_M, Geraint, Zdenek, DGB) that are currently coasting as we could quite conceiveably get to D2 and have 4 players in the pool that have very little for us to make a read off. I am voting DGB due to scumminess and my vote on her will hopefully also provide some utility in terms of encouraging her to engage more, but I am happy to be pragmatic and collaborate to apply pressure on another low-activity player like Zdenek

if we think the pressure would actually lead to something useful

[Marky Mark]

No idea how my previous post got posted twice - apologies

we can do better than gerain, especially since gerain should be come more sortable on later days.

How would you ever know they'll be more sortable than anyone else.

cross-posted with this -> having looked at a couple of their games, it seems like they were somewhat more engaged on later days, but I agree that it would be good to have a plan in mind for what we are going to do about geraint/N_M as a town, especially if they do not kick into gear later on

[Marky Mark]

... but she herself voted Geraint a couple of pages earlier, which is a wagon based on very similar principles (ie pressuring an inactive & hard to read player)

That whole "on lookout for lhf" thing is just plain contradicting everything, as I remember calling out in my wall on them.

As a side note, I'm presuming LHF is "Low, Hard, Fast" ?

[Marky Mark]

we can do better than gerain, especially since gerain should be come more sortable on later days.

I'll just chip in that id rather not die today. But I don't mind being run up for a while until people decide to vote someone else off.
Putting pressure on me isn't going to alter my posts today for what it is worth. You aren't going to generate a reaction from me.
But if you want to see how others react, be my guest.

You could not have been possibly a single bit more conspicuous, I hope I am wrong though.

Why do you hope you are wrong? Have the courage of your convictions

NB - I personally don't think it is massively scummy as they seem to play like this as both alignments from the two other games I looked at

[Marky Mark]

Scummy:
DK

( :O I'm not alone!)

I'm not massively convinced by a DK wagon at this point in time (ie mid-day). It would be a wasted opportunity to pressure the lurkier players and get something out of them we can use to stop them coasting and also make a more accurate read. I've outlined why I find them (DK) scummy, but I feel like they'll post plenty of stuff to help refine that read regardless of any vote pressure.

[Marky Mark]

hey mark whats the difference between your infinity tr and my scumread? Just asking for a friend

I'm sorting them as more town than scum as they haven't done anything that stuck out to me as scummy, but they have been engaged in the game, facilitated discussion and made an effort to unpick stuff.

As far as I can tell based on 1144 (please correct me if I am mistaken) a major part of your scumread on them is their involvement with the wagon on math.

For ref, 672 is where the flashwagon on math starts. Shelly started it, infinity jumped onto it and then after a response by math, VP and you then also subsequently also jumped onto it. What was it in particular about Infinity being involved with the wagon that you found scummy as opposed to any of the other participants?

[Marky Mark]

... but she herself voted Geraint a couple of pages earlier, which is a wagon based on very similar principles (ie pressuring an inactive & hard to read player)

That whole "on lookout for lhf" thing is just plain contradicting everything, as I remember calling out in my wall on them.

i am calling to elim taylor not gerain rn but go off

You were voting geraint at the time of making post 909 where you call the vote on N_M out as LHF

[Marky Mark]

ok so?

So you calling out Gamma voting N_M (ie a non-active hard-to-read player) as being LHF seems inconsistent when you yourself were voting for another non-active, hard-to-read player at the time you made the post

[Marky Mark]

I don't have a problem with either Gamma's N_M vote or your Geraint vote, but I hope you can see why they are quite similar and why its weird you would call another player out for doing something

very

similar to what you were doing yourself at the time

Infinity isnt only scummy for their activity around the math wagon idk why ppl keep trying to make me out as a 2 dimensional player its getting rly annoying game after game

I apologise - I had a look back through your ISO to try and find other things you were SRing him for and couldn't see much. Care to enlighten me?

[Marky Mark]

Just dragging the light back on DGB for a sec:

Also I called not_mafia my soul mason after ONE POST how is that meta you fools

I am slightly confused now - claiming you were reading N_M as town due to being soul_masons implied meta reasons to me, but I accept that it is an ambiguous term.

Let's really try to nail this down - when you posted your readslist, why did you have N_M and Geraint as Town/Scum respectively, when functionally the two slots have acted very similarly?

[Marky Mark]

Just dragging the light back on DGB for a sec:

Also I called not_mafia my soul mason after ONE POST how is that meta you fools

I am slightly confused now - claiming you were reading N_M as town due to being soul_masons implied meta reasons to me, but I accept that it is an ambiguous term.

Let's really try to nail this down - when you posted your readslist, why did you have N_M and Geraint as Town/Scum respectively, when functionally the two slots have acted very similarly?

[Marky Mark]

+1

also im getting some oblivious townie vibes from mark atm

Lowkey discredit? I'm presuming this is relating to my above post on DGB

A fair few people seem to be TRing DGB but if you look at the slot objectively, it's actively lurked, made some inconsistent reads (eg the disparity between N_M/geraint) and made a couple of posts that try to sound townie ie 356 1162. What is it that you are seeing in the slot that makes it feel towny to you?

We need to find a solution to deal with N_M/Geraint who probs won't respond to pressure, but I think we also need to be shining the light on DGB (and Zedenek to a lesser extent) here so that they can't coast.

[Marky Mark]

u literally just see which faction nm it seems is actively trying to throw against and then read them as that alignment. I've played with the type before

I admire your optimism

[Marky Mark]

I've been doing a bit of ISOing on VP as its a slot that hadn't really stuck out to me this game. I think Andres has already put across the key points on the previous page that he has been primarily focussed on going after low-activity slots, which is behavior that is aligned to the town's interests but is also unlikely to cause any great controversy, making it hard to sort him either way off the basis of that.

Hmm, this isn't a terrible argument against infinity. Still interested in Taylor's take on whether indecisiveness fits infinity meta D1.

This is NAI IMO but just generally would be keen to see people doing their own homework if looking for meta reads so that if we miselim they don't have the easy excuse of "player XYZ said this was a meta tell"

UNVOTE:

No.

Sorry, but FL has definitely not shaken Math's scuminess just yet. FL is clearly a better player and needs to catch up before we just move on from this wagon.

This line of inquiry has been fairly quiet recently - @VP has FL changed your mind on this slot?

Good luck with work tonight DK (side note: I'm curious to know what you do that has you work long hours on halloween). I'd love to hear more from you on your other reasons for scumreading infinity outside of the math wagon when you have a chance.

[Marky Mark]

Timely cross-post with VP's 1300 -> VP suggesting infinity's reads are broad and uncontroversial, while I am making a similar case on VP

I have also previously voted Geraint (before I did more homework on his previous games) and am voting DGB so I'm totally doing this as well - I'm not saying its bad or wrong, especially when it comes to pressuring low info slots, it just makes it harder to sort people

[Marky Mark]

The previous votecount doesn't look right to me - unless I am missing something andres was voting infinity

[Marky Mark]

</busywork>

[Marky Mark]

Timely cross-post with VP's 1300 -> VP suggesting infinity's reads are broad and uncontroversial, while I am making a similar case on VP

I would say the difference is I'm doing more pushing to actually yeet these slots.

I'm not massively convinced of that atm. Infinity was #2 on the math flash wagon and you were #4. Outside of that, I see the geraint vote, but I can't see him responding to pressure. I do agree with your sentiment of narrowing the pool though and leaning towards a low-info slot over one we are likely to get more out of, all other things being equal.

[Marky Mark]

Goodnight all and thank you for the pleasure of your company. Please try not to write

too

many pages overnight

[Marky Mark]

Last post for now - I promise

The previous votecount doesn't look right to me - unless I am missing something andres was voting infinity

Disregard this - infinity is listed twice seperately in the count. I just saw him on one vote and did a double take

if we miselim they don't have the easy excuse of "player XYZ said this was a meta tell"

That's not what I'm doing fwiw. I was asking for Taylor's take. If she had disagreed with infinity, I would have checked myself to see who was being more accurate.

I was just making the more general point that if people are going to use meta reasons to make a push, I want to see them have the courage of their convictions to put their own name behind it

[Marky Mark]

I don't know which one to vote for. Zdenek is being replaced, no one wants to eliminate geranium, NDmath's replacement is OK, and there's you.

This is a good spot - I hadn't realized that Zedenek's ultimatum had run out. Hopefully we will get something out of their replacement prior to the end of the day as otherwise that slot is kinda in limbo

[Marky Mark]

The scum doesn't want to bus geranium.

Which slots are you referring to here? Taylor has been reasonably vocal about not being in favour of a geraint elim, and I guess N_M has townread him too fwiw but I can't think of anyone else who has been against a geraint elim

[Marky Mark]

Just dragging the light back on DGB for a sec:

Also I called not_mafia my soul mason after ONE POST how is that meta you fools

I am slightly confused now - claiming you were reading N_M as town due to being soul_masons implied meta reasons to me, but I accept that it is an ambiguous term.

Let's really try to nail this down - when you posted your readslist, why did you have N_M and Geraint as Town/Scum respectively, when functionally the two slots have acted very similarly?

@DGB - please can you clarify this? Especially relevant now that you are pushing Geraint.

[Marky Mark]

More generally, I am concerned about the general gamestate of having 4 lurker and/or low-info slots atm (N_M, Geraint, DGB, Zedenek). This is all conjecture so take it with a pinch of salt but I could definitely see 1 or even 2 scum coasting in that bracket, which makes me a bit twitchy about pushing for an elim on an active player at this point unless they are scumtelling hard. Eg if for sake of argument there were 2 scum coasting in that lurker pool and a scumteam of 3 then we have effectively 1 in 9 chance of landing scum if we go after an active player (ie 13 players - 4 lurkers).

Zedenek is being replaced so that is out of our hands. I'd like to see DGB be a bit more proactive and also explain the disparity of her reads on geraint and N_M. I would lean more towards a N_M elim than a geraint one right now tbqh as I have more confidence in Gamma on the N_M wagon than I do with DGB on the geraint wagon (FL and VP I'm fairly meh about rn).

I'm going to keep my vote on DGB - the slot is coasting and has some inconsistencies to explain, but I am on board with a n_m elim.

--Sidenote - I am scumreading koba but I think the slot has been so active that as the game progresses her alignment will become even clearer through the interactions they've had. They have objectively discredited people and acted inconsistenly, but it is now a case of working out if this comes from a place of scum (reasonably likely IMO) or misguided town

[Marky Mark]

I'd be keen to hear from DK and/or Taylor why they felt a vote on N_M was bad in the circumstances. Taylor has also spoken out against a geraint vote, so she is at least consistent in her attitude towards low activity/engagement players, but would love to know why DK felt that voting Geraint was ok, but Gamma voting N_M wasn't.

DK would you mind clarifying this? We never quite got to the bottom of it yesterday.

Ref DGB's activity, have a look at her ISO. Outside of the wall post, it's all one-liners which tend to either be off-topic, narrative or "I think player X is alignment Y". There's no real signs of scrutiny or deeper engagement. Perhaps inactive is not the best way to phrase it - coasting might be better. She's basically done enough to look like she's making some sort of effort (ie the wall post) but has done no more than the minimum.

[Marky Mark]

my vote on NM is literally just a votepark tho??? Like you should probably check the reasoning for the vote over if you trust who is voting. Or, even better, use both at once.

So let's be clear here - the primary reason for me being happy with the elim is that both slots are willfully low-info and represent a risk to the town. Of the two, I think N_M is a better candidate for an elim as my main suspect (DGB) isn't voting them but someone I am TRing (you) is.

Agreed your N_M vote may have been a votepark, but clearly you were comfortable enough with the idea of a wagon on that slot to vote them, even in a parking capacity.

[Marky Mark]

i think u dont know what actual scumtells are @mark.

or ur purposefully avoiding reading previous games so u can keep pretending it is a scumtell for me

if u think im gonna sit here and let dumb theories be peddled ill be damned.

Imma be real with u that my townread on u has weakened significantly. And with ur scummy choice to vote sit on a slot that u are misrepping, i cant keep that to myself anymore.

I mean you have objectively been inconsistent in this game (eg 909- you are very welcome to respond to the question I have asked you on this twice btw) and have sought to discredit people. I have not looked at your meta in any great depth tbqh but I find it difficult to see how this could come from a place of being town.

wait mark is uborinically trying to push nm lmao.

ok theyre actually openscumming now VOTE: mark

I mean I've been fairly open about favouring a low-activity slot in many of my previous posts. Do you have issue with N_M in particular?

mark panicking bc theyre scum pr and attracted attention that they werent expecting

LOL - I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this is a reaction test. If this is meant at face value, it's a massive reach

I could be amenable to that, I think Mark's way of approaching NM vs. geraint feels a bit sketchy, as I said I think it's off to pick based on who you trust on a wagon, because bussing is possible, and I also think the way the rest of the geraint wagon got handwaved is suspect.

bussing is possible on the geraint wagon for sure but that was my assessment on the balance of probability. The other two players on the geraint wagon are nullish for me, so if there's a choice between two functinally very similar slots, one of whom is being voted for by a TR and the other has two nulls and a SR then it seems logical to me to pick the former

[Marky Mark]

could I not be scum who is trying to weight the pressure towards NM? Like yeah that's a good reason to expect me and NM aren't scum partners, but not reason to trust me and sus NM.

Why do you distrust DGB, btw? I get that maybe she hasn't posted a lot but her posts seem to have good content. Is there something in that content you find scummy?

Yeah, it is ofc possible you two are partners. I don't see a massive amount to choose between N_M and geraint based on the content of their posts, so I've made a judgement call based on the balance of probability. Of course any of these hypothetical scenarios you suggest could potensh be true (and a bus is a realistic thing that could happen), but feels like a bit of a reach to imply my agreeability to elim somone is sketch because I could be wrong in some scenarios. The converse logic could just as equally be applied to those favouring geraint

Re DGB:
The initial vote on her back on Tues was for coasting and lack of scrutiny, since then this has evolved. She is still coasting as mentioned above, in addition, I found the disparity in her readslist on N_M and geraint to be really off, which she still hasn't explained, and things like 356 1162 felt like her trying to look town. As I've mentioned above, I find her off and it feels like willful coasting.

[Marky Mark]

More generally, I am concerned about the general gamestate of having 4 lurker and/or low-info slots atm (N_M, Geraint, DGB, Zedenek). This is all conjecture so take it with a pinch of salt but I could definitely see 1 or even 2 scum coasting in that bracket, which makes me a bit twitchy about pushing for an elim on an active player at this point

Lol wasn't this the point you were trying to use to call me scummy? Saying I was going after the lurkers.

Glad you've come around to the correct point of view.

Point of order - I wasn't calling you scummy. To quote earlier!me:

Timely cross-post with VP's 1300 -> VP suggesting infinity's reads are broad and uncontroversial, while I am making a similar case on VP

I have also previously voted Geraint (before I did more homework on his previous games) and am voting DGB so I'm totally doing this as well - I'm not saying its bad or wrong, especially when it comes to pressuring low info slots, it just makes it harder to sort people

I have been on board with running up a low-info slot for a while. I was just saying that it's hard to sort you (or anyone tbh) who has been focussed on pushing low-activity slots as it's a generally sensible thing to do and unlikely to invite any controvosy, so it makes sense to do from either alignment

[Marky Mark]

me, not reading marks long bs posts anymore

That's rude and there's no need for that tone :S

So I've asked you multiple times to explain your inconsistent behaviour in 909, you've deflected this and instead flung a bunch of accusations my way. When I've worked through and responded to them methodically you now decide to discredit them by saying they are too long to read. I hope you can see how this massively constructive for anyone involved.

--Side note, I am totally open to constructive feedback if people are finding posting style/length/etc difficult to digest, but let's please treat each other with respect

[Marky Mark]

Seeing as POEs are the hot topic rn...

{gerain, koba, DGB, andres, zdenek} is my PoE atm

Is this still your POE given you now claim to be light TRing DGB and Zedenek is being replaced ergo the slot is in limbo?

VOTE: Marky Mark

I am not low info. Trust me when I get a bee in my bonnet, I'll spam harder than DkKoba.

Then prove it by pushing the game forwards and responding to the question I've asked you a couple of times about your inconsistent reads on N_M/Geraint

Threatening to spam me harder than koba because I'm voting you is not making me think you are town rn. Actively scumhunting, applying scrutiny and backing up your posts with justification would though.

[Marky Mark]

me, not reading marks long bs posts anymore

That's rude and there's no need for that tone :S

So I've asked you multiple times to explain your inconsistent behaviour in 909, you've deflected this and instead flung a bunch of accusations my way. When I've worked through and responded to them methodically you now decide to discredit them by saying they are too long to read. I hope you can see how this massively constructive for anyone involved.

--Side note, I am totally open to constructive feedback if people are finding posting style/length/etc difficult to digest, but let's please treat each other with respect

stop gaslighting me thx

Cross-posted with this. Please explain, clearly, how you feel I am gaslighting you. To avoid an earlier misunderstanding we had, I am not looking for a definition of the term gaslighting, but for you to explain how my actions are gaslighting you.

[Marky Mark]

im not interested in interacting with u anymore

So that's twice in an evening that you've accused me of something, I've taken the time to respond to you and then you've just changed the subject.

[Marky Mark]

mark: asks 50 million questions and cherrypicks those that dont answer every single one of them as their scumread.

sorry but no.

If you accuse someone of something with no explanation then I feel it fairly reasonable to want to understand why. Including the gaslight question, there's been three main questions I've asked you this game (misrep accusation waaay earlier, clarification on the inconsistency of 909, and why you think I'm gaslighting you) so this is a bit of a stretch. It's also just how the game works - we ask each other questions to try and understand where each other are coming from

[Marky Mark]

{gerain, koba, DGB, andres, zdenek} is my PoE atm

Is this still your POE given you now claim to be light TRing DGB and Zedenek is being replaced ergo the slot is in limbo?

Pretty much. I didn't mention n_m, who I believe VP townreads for meta reasons, so I was trusting that. I do think he pretend to contribute a bit more as scum. To be more clear:

I doubt scum is here: {VP, JV, gamma, mark}
Not really feeling scum, but could be wrong: {n_m, taylor, DGB, flavor}
The rest: {andres, koba, zdenek, gerain}

Ok, that makes sense. You've been over your koba read and I'm assuming gerain/zdenek is from a place of inactivity but I don't remember you discussing andres in any great detail? He seems to be pretty actively scrutinizing the game imo. I had kinda assumed zedenek was off the table atm due to being replaced (seems foolish to lynch a slot unless they're stone dead scum when the replacement might help us get a better read on it) so was surprised to see them in your POE still?

I kind of want Marky to be scum here because his posts look so smooth if he is.

I don't even know what to say to this - this is kinda like reverse pocketing I guess?!

[Marky Mark]

@Infinity - thanks for the clarification. I still find it weird that you have andres in the POE as he's clearly been making effort to scrutinize things and come up with original thinking. Not impossible to do as scum I guess but certainly from the limited info we have right now is not someone I would want to gamble on losing as if he is town, it will be a big loss to us.

Goodnight all, thank you as ever for some enjoyable (if spirited) discussion

PS - I've been playing the whole 'too scummy to be scum' thing over in my head with koba too. We clearly have very different playstyles so I am trying to be open-minded ref this, but even so her refusal to engage in meaningful discussion as we've seen this evening just does not seem to remotely sit in line with the town's interests. At a personal level, I find this very frustrating to deal with but will give this some mulling over so that I come at things with a level head tomorrow.

[Marky Mark]

Good evening all,

I'm not gonna lie, I am currently 7 pints down, so take the following with a pinch of salt:

So my main concern atm is the three lurker slots (Zedenek now being replaced seems positive) that are being allowed to coast fairly easily. For those who are arguing against an elm on a low-activity player (eg TAykor, FL), I'd genuinely like to understand how you plan to deal with those slots going forward. I am open-minded on this but I think it's important that we have a coherent plan going forward.

In particular, I'm concerned/worried about DGB - they are clearly a competent player who is currently being allowed to coast and avoid scrutiny. Nobody else seems to be SRing them particularly, which makes me wonder what others are seeing in them that I am not.

[Marky Mark]

anyways im coming back to this post and just getting rly annoyed ppl wanna let ppl like mark deepwolf easily on d1 when they've been slipping the longer they've been talking.

I'm not familiar with 'deepwolf' - would you mind elaborating? Ty.

Oh hey, it's jackson and geraintm everyone, posting weak sniping and IIoA, respectively.

Look, we need to come to a consensus wagon today. We have roughly 3 days and still need to get through the claim process. Late tomorrow and Wednesday will be a loss for me because of the election in the US (soft VLA warning for about 24 hours there), so I'd rather we move this forward today if possible.

I'll be switching my vote to infinity today unless you all come to your senses and see what a pile of poop you're letting skate into D2. Scum are going to try to keep the wagons as divided as possible up to deadline so any yeet is a rush job. Don't let them.

Preach. We need to start gathering consensus before we end up rushing into anything.

I'm not feeling a Mark yeet today. Like, on a personal level, I hate that posting style to some degree, but that's NAI.

At a pragmatic level, if there are things I could tweak to make my posts more digestible please let me know

Dkkoba is VERY town.

Why?

almost all u need to know is that infinity and mark are pretty much conf scum

Chat shit, get banged,

[Marky Mark]

In particular, I'm concerned/worried about DGB - they are clearly a competent player who is currently being allowed to coast and avoid scrutiny.

I've played a good amount with DGB in olden times. This is just her play. She definitely will get more active later. If I had a scum read on her, I'd be all in with you, but she's null to town for me atm.

Happy scumday mate.

I don't know DGB super well but they are clearly an experienced player and imo they are coasting right now. For those TRing DGB right now I'd ask them how they think sucm!DGB would be playing differently because right now I see a whole deal of coasting and trying to look town.

This being said, I am keen to be pragmatic and as I seem to be alone in finding DGB highly sus, I am content to look at other scumreads or low-info slots for today's elim, ie {DK, N_M} and maybe Geraint as a compromise if neither of the above are agreeable with other players. DGB is getting away with a lot right now, so I am just keen that they are held to account - especially as they still haven't responded to questions raised earlier, eg their inconsistencies between their reads on N_M and Geraint

I am going to VOTE: DK and this is me going back to back to first principles - as I have explained at reasonable length already, their unsubstantiated discrediting, inconsistencies, and deflections is not remotely aligned with town interests. If they feel there is a meta defence to be had here, they are welcome to articulate it (just as they are welcome to articulate their reasons for 909)

[Marky Mark]

Anyway I welcome some input from others on this and you can all yell at me for focusing on the wrong thing if that’s what I’m doing. This could also be confirmation bias on my part.

The infinity elim here feels like a low % play

I get the argument for their POE being off (I am less convinced by the Taylor argument of them playing differently to prior games), but I am not particularly convinced at this point that their POE being off => they are scum

If I were a gambling man, I would put dosh on there being 1+ scum in the lurker pool

As such, I am leaning towards either an elim on someone who has objectivley acted against town interests (ie DK) or someone in the lurker pool (ie DGB, NM or Geraint at a push).

[Marky Mark]

Did a lim happen?

Nah mate, 3 on Infinity and 4 on DK afaik

Catching up is looking like a greater and greater chore with every spammer that replaces in

Preach.

[Marky Mark]

Goodnight all

Almost50, its a pleasure to have you join us.

[Marky Mark]

Evening all

We are getting reasonably close to deadline and I like the fact that VPB is actively trying to facilitate finding a consensus so that we don't rush the elim and make a sub-optimal play (eg his 1756). This is all in the interests of the town, so points to him for that. I am less keen on his using this to try and steer people toward the infinity wagon (eg in 1837), which feels like one of the more controversial wagons of those currently having traction and not one that I would have said feels like it has the most consensus.

Could see DGB as scum actually, lots of consensus votes and no one pressuring her.

This is what I have been saying for a fair while now and have not heard a compelling argument to the converse. She is a capable player who is clearly coasting and has deflected off reasonable questions rather than answer them (eg her read disparity on N_M/Geraint). I think we are letting her get away with far too much here, but I am also starting to doubt myself on this slot as I seem to be pretty alone in this POV.

@infinity - when you say you get townpings off geraint's posts in 1752, is it anything in particular? I would prefer N_M as an elim candidate if we are going to go after a low-activity slot (as explained earlier), but would accept Geraint if that was the only way of finding consensus as a town

[Marky Mark]

oof thats too much pressure. i think id go for gerain cuz infinity is playing and i kinda ish think inifinity could be town atm.

This is on the money in general terms, although I'd take it a step further and say if geraint, then why not N_M?

[Marky Mark]

this is such a fluffed up bs post LMFAO
I dont do meta defense. If u dont care enough to read my previous games thats bc u are nkt trying to actually read my alignment.

The thing is, you're kinda half right here, I definitely agree that putting in the effort to do detective work is townish as scum have no need to try and work out people's alignments. I do actually care about sorting you and that's why I've been scrutinizing your actions this game and asking you questions to try and further understand your motivations, which repeatedly refuse to answer.

Fwiw, I don't just blindly think you're scum because you have a different posting style to me. I'm actually trying to get a quality read on your slot and work you out here. I've looked at some previous games for N_M and Geraint as there was little to go off in this one, but I hope you'll forgive me for not having the time to thoroughly research every slot's game history, which is why I invited you to put some points across on why you think I'm reading you wrong.

[Marky Mark]

oof thats too much pressure. i think id go for gerain cuz infinity is playing and i kinda ish think inifinity could be town atm.

This is on the money in general terms, although I'd take it a step further and say if geraint, then why not N_M?

well i can think of one reason for not going for NM

Pray tell?

[Marky Mark]

oof thats too much pressure. i think id go for gerain cuz infinity is playing and i kinda ish think inifinity could be town atm.

This is on the money in general terms, although I'd take it a step further and say if geraint, then why not N_M?

well i can think of one reason for not going for NM

Pray tell?

[Marky Mark]

If you'd vote gerain and infinity does, then we are really talking.

I will keep an eye on this. I've got a day off tomorrow so will have time to go over stuff and work to find a consensus choice if needed.

Speaking of preferred choices though:

i agree with that but my line is at gaslighting basically. hate when ppl just start blatantly lying to your face abt things u did just to win. i.e. stuff that can be proven within the same thread.

With your post in mind, can you see how it can be fairly frustrating to try and work with you when you throw out accusations about other players without any justification and then refuse to explain them when questioned. Ironically, one of said accusations was actually about gaslighting too.

We've touched on the meta side of things above but I think it's also important to apply some first principles in terms of objective behaviours within the scope of this game. You have consistently not acted in the interests of the town today in terms of discrediting, throwing out unsubstantiated accusations, and refusing to engage in meaningful discussion on any of the above. I find it really hard to see how these are coming from a place of being town

[Marky Mark]

Another thing that stuck out to me when flicking back through:

VOTE: DkKoba

Obvscum

people will literally do anything to avoid using facts to update tbeir reads bc they dont want to admit they are wrong and this game is just more proof of it

i think u dont know what actual scumtells are @mark.

or ur purposefully avoiding reading previous games so u can keep pretending it is a scumtell for me

if u think im gonna sit here and let dumb theories be peddled ill be damned.

Imma be real with u that my townread on u has weakened significantly. And with ur scummy choice to vote sit on a slot that u are misrepping, i cant keep that to myself anymore.

I've pointed out several times how your behaviors have objectively not been in the interests of the town - I'd love for you to respond to my questions and provide a logical/objective defence, instead of which you tell me my scumreads are invalid because I don't know tells for you based on previous games. I feel like I've largely dealt in facts here rather than tone/flavour reasons for voting you but you keep moving the goalposts on what you consider a legitamte reason to suspect someone

[Marky Mark]

I'm heading off so that I can get up early and catch up with the back end of the US election - my thoughts are with any US players in this game and I hope you get the result that you want

[Marky Mark]

Couldn't resist one last quick post...

Pray tell?

nope. its in the thread though

I've had a quick scan and couldn't see anything obvious. Given that you were earlier leaning more towards N_M than Geraint:

If they’re scum together, it’s a hatchet. He’s discrediting you, but he isn’t pushing you

ok sure. but thats what i mean when i say VPB is being manipulative.

and gerain is a dumb wagon since the slot becomes increasingly solvable with time. if you want a policy lunch, go push NM. but im not voting for a policy lunch except maybe as a deadline compromise.

I'm guessing the reason is something you'd rather not blurt out, which is fine I guess. I'll have another scan tomorrow and try to wrap my head around this

[Marky Mark]

Hey all

Meant to get on here earlier today but have been glued to the radio listening to the election coverage.

Sorry to hear you're not well JV - I hope you're feeling better soon

[Marky Mark]

@JV: Since when do you post walls???

Also I called not_mafia my soul mason after ONE POST how is that meta you fools

That is the EXACT SAME POST he opens with LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE GAME. I feel this is more like TMI of you're serious (I initially took it as a joke on you part)

P.S. Turned to skim-mode again, but I need to finish catching up before I log off.

So to provide context to this, I have asked DGB a few times now to explain this as she had the N_M slot as her top TR but was SRing Geraint, who functionally has a very similar playstyle. Her response was that she and NM were soulmasons, which explains very little and I have had no joy since getting any more out of her.

[Marky Mark]

I wasn't really feeling an Infinity wagon but

Yeah I'm pretty sure all these wagons are on town but

has definitely made me SR him more.

A little while back his reads were at:

{gerain, koba, DGB, andres, zdenek} is my PoE atm

Is this still your POE given you now claim to be light TRing DGB and Zedenek is being replaced ergo the slot is in limbo?

Pretty much. I didn't mention n_m, who I believe VP townreads for meta reasons, so I was trusting that. I do think he pretend to contribute a bit more as scum. To be more clear:

I doubt scum is here: {VP, JV, gamma, mark}
Not really feeling scum, but could be wrong: {n_m, taylor, DGB, flavor}
The rest: {andres, koba, zdenek, gerain}

I appreciate reads change over time, but it seems odd that the top two wagons are Koba and Geraint (ie people in his POE as of 1401) and he has now come round 180 degrees to thinking these are wagons on town.

It also feels rare to be "pretty sure" of a player's alignment on D1, let alone multiple players (although this may just be poor word choice) - @Infinity, if you really are that confident these slots are all town then why are you sitting on geraint rather than trying to push elsewhere or N/L?

[Marky Mark]

also marky continues to be proven they have scum motivation. They continue to push my elim, told me to show meta reasons and say im acting a"anti town "(lol seriously this is such an extreme reach like ur actually so scummy trying to force a lynch onto the most likely player to solve other than andres)
Its always the scum who have never played with me who think im an easy elim. I know they havent read my meta despite asking fkr a meta defense bc as town they'd realize their argument js bullshit and as scum they'd see that im a bad push

Hey DK

Let's try and work through this together. I'd love to understand how you feel I've "proven" scum motivation as the points you've provided here seem to be opinion rather than fact.

"They continue to push my elim" - I believe you to be scum. As I've said before, I have asked you questions multiple times to try and understand the motivations for your actions this game (and in doing so get a better read on you), but you refuse to answer these.

"Told me to show meta reasons" - After I pointed out the several things you've done this game that I SR you for, you said

"or ur purposefully avoiding reading previous games so u can keep pretending it is a scumtell for me
"

in 1345 ie using meta as a defence. As

you

were the one so keen to use meta as a defence, I offered you the opportunity to do that. I'm not going to read up on the past game history of every single slot as I simply don't have the time/capacity, but I am open-minded and happy to give slots the opportunity to articleuate key points if they think they are important (which you then declined to do).

"and say im acting a"anti town" - I have explained and justified this POV due to your discrediting/undermining, refusal to answer reasonable questions (eg about your inconsistencies like 909) or justify/substantiate the many allegations you have made this game. If there are any of these points you feel are incorrect you are more than welcome to refute them. Whether or not you are most likely to solve this game, is ofc not something we can tell objectively right now, but as you are baying for my blood from my POV you're not off to a great start.

[Marky Mark]

once again ppl ignore obvious slips i catch and go on to miselim town weeee

You're starting to sound like a certain well-known US president right now (I say this 100% in jest and only mean in the way that you both make completely unsubstantiated allegations as your modus operandi)

[Marky Mark]

Y'all. Force a damn claim already. The time to debate wagons has passed

Agreed. We need to wrap this up before we rush into a poor decision.

Currently 4 DK 4 Geraint 3 Infinity with FL and A50 not voting.

DK just looks really scummy here to me IMO and I'm reluctant to compromise on geraint rn. I think infinitys recent post that I've gone over is pretty scummy but they are still overall a distant 3rd choice.

As A50 and FL aren't voting ATM, I think the priority is for them to put their vote down and we can then solidify around the leading wagon after those two have voted and go through claims etc

[Marky Mark]

Hey DK, I'm sorry you feel upset about how I've interacted with you :S This is meant to be an enjoyable game and I'd never want anyone to feel upset as a result of my actions.

I'm voting/pushing you because I genuinely believe you to be scum. I've tried to make it clear to the rest of the town why I believe this, and have asked you for your reasoning on many occasions, to give you the right of reply. you keep saying that I'm misrepping and gaslighting you, but when I ask you to explain this you deflect the conversation away, so I'm finding it genuinely really hard to interact with you or understand why you feel this way.

Let me try to illustrate this from my POV:

im hungovrt and we should still lim mark the openwolf

Here you make an unsubstantiated accusation against me (btw I still have no idea what 'openwolf' means, I have asked you to explain it before)

ur actually pretty grimy and im a bit upset but ill let it slide cause its a game but consider not borderline gaslighting someone just to get them limmed bc its not ok

..but then you go on to make a borderline personal attack on me by claiming that I'm making unsubstantiated accusations against you, which just confuses me as it makes me feel like you're attacking me on a personal level for things that you yourself are doing.

I genuinely want everyone to enjoy this game and I'm really open to chatting through what it is in particular that I'm doing which you are finding upsetting. I know we have very different playstyles but I just really hope you can see that my push on you is based out of my perceptions of your behaviours in this game and not on some personal level

[Marky Mark]

I'm heading out for a bit - I'm going to wait to see where the A50 and FL votes fall and will then switch across to Geraint if it is clear that wagon has more votes than DK, once A50 and FL are included.

[Marky Mark]

Evening all, in a fun plot twist I went to visit friends on the last night before the new UK lockdown and then had a mahoosive drive home due to a bunch of road closures. Just hopped on super quickly to get up to date.

I’m likely going to hammer if Nm doesn’t and if nobody switches to DK

This is basically my position too. I still favour a DK elim today. That seems to be looking increasingly less likely. At any rate, I would like to see FL weigh-in prior to hammer if possible. We still have 24H to put this through so I am content to leave this overnight (ie overnight UK time) and will look at this tomorrow and, if necessary hammer geraint. I agree that a claim would be helpful here but he seems unlikely to change his mind as I am not the first to say this.

[Marky Mark]

Intent to hammer in next 10 min or so

[Marky Mark]

preferably mark but whatever

Your constant attention is flattering

[Marky Mark]

I appreciate FL providing their thoughts, even if they were a bit wishy-washy (ie "I think I’m okay with Gera." [2070]). Let me try and provide mine preflip for transparancy.

I think the geraint elim is ok here. It's not the slot I find the scummiest (ie DGB/DK) but its a null read for me and, as I've explained already, at this stage in the game I don't mind an elim on a low-info slot as I genuinely worry about how we sort multiple low info slots going forwards.

sure then hammer gera. because i wont do it myself. im tired of trying to explain that my reads are actually good wrt finding town in inactives :/

This is making me a little uneasy - if dk is scum here then the geraint wagon feels like it has too much traction to stop so I find it unlikely that they're both scum and she is trying to save him, but I can see a

possible

scenario where geraint is town and dk is trying to get towncred by protesting against the elim at this late stage.

But to help the game along, if people are expecting me to claim if I get closer to being eliminated I am not going to

Read my sig

Oh this is scum alright.

This is also not filling me with confidence as this feels fairly in-character for geraint (ie NAI), which combined with my SR on DGB, and her presence on the wagon, worries me.

For these reasons, I would prefer an N_M elim to geraint as the low-info slot of choice, as I've previously explained, but this is not an option so let's not dwell on that.

I also think that at this proximity to the deadline and the vote split (6/3/3), I can't see any other wagons realistically going through (or certainly without being rushed to the point where a town misplay becomes v likely) so the alternative to geraint would be No Elim, which is strictly worse than losing a low-info null slot IMO, even with the caveats above.

So basically the TL;DR is I think this far from the best option, but it's still OK (ie I'm not town-leaning on Geraint), and is better than the realistic alternative available of No Elim

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Geraint

That's the hammer.

[Marky Mark]

And with that civic duty discharged, I shall head to work and check back here this evening. Have a good day all

[Marky Mark]

Evening all ,

My reaction on catching up with D2 so far



I've just worked a 12-8 shift, so pretty frazzled but will provide some quick thoughts and then more tomorrow.

[Marky Mark]

The dead player was a danger to

To whom? I don't quite follow what you are trying to say here (sorry!)

@mark whats 2x2+25-9?

20 I guess if we apply the conventional operator order. Why do you ask?

Will say, weird Koba didn't die after soft claiming power.

Pure WIFOM IMO - I don't see what the value is of bringing it up at this point in proceedings

VOTE: infinity

nice scummy early claim

Why is that scummy? - I'm not experienced with PR optimal plays but it seems like this is good for transparency (ie he's not waited for DGB to ellaborate and then claim something that fits with the detail). I'm not defending him either, I just think its NAI.

[Marky Mark]

u are so fucking bad taylor if u are town here like really terrible. grudge tunnels are not a good look

I don't want to minimod here but this is a naked personal attack. This is supposed to be a game and there ought to be no place for posts like this on this forum. Let's all respect each other

[Marky Mark]

Let's not get bogged down in who said what - can we all just try to get along going forwards and take the personal stuff out of it please? Will be a lot more fun for all parties that way

So infinity has claimed, the logical thing here seems to be for DGB to elaborate on whether his claim could be plausible (eg she was a tracker and tracked him to FL) or whether what she knows solidly proves him to be scum.

[Marky Mark]

DGB literally never claimed. why are ppl even bothering assuming they did

I'm not sure anyone did - afaik they just revealed that they had a result on infinity that led them to believe infinity was scum

[Marky Mark]

Assuming 2155 was a joke btw but as far as I can tell from the wiki, it doesn't look like paranoid cop would be a Normal role

@A50 - we don't need to theorycraft at this stage IMO - we can see what DBG wants to share in response and go from there.

[Marky Mark]

i think its a very long reach to think its a report claim. town pr(or town in general) would ask for verification of result if its actually a guilty.

You could potentially be right TBF - IMO if it was a reaction test then DGB doubling down on her vote in 2131 doesn't make much sense though.

Would be good to hear from DGB herself on this to clear it up

[Marky Mark]

Evening all, another day and more excuses from me for not being as active as I'd like to - got called into work to sort out some IT dramas, which ended up consuming most of my day.

So I thought DGB was coasting hard yesterday and trying a bit too hard to look like chummy town. The fakeclaim on infinity is not something I would see newb-scum doing, but for an experienced player I could see it coming from either alignment.

I was not willing to eliminate DkKoba yesterday, but today, I might.

What has changed from your POV - you seemed pretty against this yesterday

[Marky Mark]

I claim I was desperate for attention, I am on mobile now but when am on desktop I will analyze reactions.

VOTE: DGB

And I don't care if you're revealed IC on demand. Drawing a PR claim "for fun" is no way to play a Mafia game.

On the other hand, while DGB is a SR for me, the reasons behind this vote feel thin - it's a borderline policy vote.

[Marky Mark]

The people on the gerain wagon not even bothering looking on the wagon and going straight for me esp when the logic was that gerain was my partner so imma need some explanations there

Is this in reference to DGB? I can't think of anyone else who is voting you or openly SRing you at the moment who wasn't on your wagon when it was at its peak late D1.

[Marky Mark]

Just been looking through the votecounts from the end of D1

Geraint wagon was

Gamma Emerald

, DrippingGoofball, VP Baltar, Infinity 324, Tayl0r Swift, Almost50, Marky Mark

I would count FL on this too as he said in 2070 that he was ok with the elim and didnt give any preferred alternatives. I would also count JV as he was in the same situation as me ie preferred DK elim but was content to hammer geraint

Of the above, JacksonVirgo, Not_Mafia, Flavor Leaf, Marky Mark, Tayl0r Swift were on DK wagon at its peak ie they wanted DK as primary elim choice

This leaves

Gamma

, DGB, VP, Infinity, A50, FL who were first-choice geraint voters

Clearly, there's more to catching scum than reading votecounts, but I think it's a useful piece of the puzzle to be aware of. I mean, geraint was a low-info nullish slot, so I don't think the arguments used to justify votes on him were necessarily flawed, but I reckon choosing a null low-info slot as a first choice elim (rather than as a compromise, which later happened) is moderately opportunistic. In other words, I don't think everyone on this wagon were scum, but I can see scum getting on board to ensure it got pushed through as the primary choice

[Marky Mark]

So I am going to try and go with my head, not my heart here and park my DK suspicions for the time being. I would be surprised if there was not at least one scum in the pool of people who voted geraint as their primary choice D1.

But to help the game along, if people are expecting me to claim if I get closer to being eliminated I am not going to

Read my sig

Oh this is scum alright.

VOTE: DGB is where I'm at right now - in addition to the reasons I've already articulated, I think the above was a stretch as the non-claim was reasonably inline with typical geraint play ie was NAI, so this felt like a stretch at the time and justification in hindsight (this is massively wifomy ofc, but I would give her the credit that she would know how players with playstyles like geraint tend to behave)

I'm interested to hear more from her and will be keeping an eye on Infinity and A50 too

-- Crosspost with infinity: arguably DK wagon was at E-2 so that was probably a more plasuible alternative, but yeah, I can see how that would make sense in terms of town!you

[Marky Mark]

To elaborate/clarify on the first para of my above post, I mean for the time being I am going to try and focus on my SRs who are also in the pool of primary geraint voters as this seems objectively more likely to lead to fruits

[Marky Mark]

Rereading Gamma's iso, he was going at infinity pretty hard at the end of D1 as well. Earlier in the day, he was after Jackson pretty hard.

A few slight jabs at Andres and mark, but nothing as serious there.

I absolutely think there was scum on the geraint wagon, but possibly later in the day. I'm a bit skeptical that both geraintm and infinity were town being run up because it just felt like a lot of resistance. Obviously without daytalk, scum are going to have a harder time coordinating their actions...but why the heck would they slow walk two town wagons?

Mark, I'm not following your logic that scum is most likely in the people who wanted geraintm as a primary choice. Hell, gamma wanted him as a primary choice.

@VP - Clearly not everyone (or even the majority) who wanted geraint as a primary choice is scum, but there are likely IMO to be a subset of >= 1 people in there that were. It was a nullish, no info slot so I can understand people voting it but for that to go through as the primary option ahead of some arguably juicer and more tangible wagons on dk and infinity suggested to me that scum were likely involved in pushing it.

Put another way, being a primary geraint voter doesn't make people automatically scum, but it does give them in a general sense a higher liklihood of being scum, so it seems more fruitful to give more focus to looking for potential scum in this subset

[Marky Mark]

I mean by my own logic you could extrapolate this to say that anyone on his wagon full stop or who voted him earlier in the day is more likely to be scum than average and that is totally legit logic, even speaking as someone who hammered him

[Marky Mark]

I don't think the number of votes on me matters if there's a guilty

It matters if you're the town's primary form of investigation. I mean, I would expect that play from a noob...

Not

really

sure why you're pushing so much on this point since I'm not getting limmed as an un-cc'ed investigative, but sure. The claim was bad.

Am I missing something? We don't know the setup so nobody ccing you doesn't rule out you being the scum

[Marky Mark]

@Infinity - I don't want to get too bogged down in mechanics discussion but is your logic basically that there's usually only 1 investigative TPR therefore if nobody else is claiming it then it must be you? I'm genuinely struggling to follow the logic here, although that could just be because its late, and I have spent way too much of today trying to make computers work

@VP - yeah, it's not the be all and end all, but I thought it was a useful tool for trying to hone my reads a bit

Goodnight all, thankyou for the pleasure of your company

[Marky Mark]

Morning all,

I've just done a very rough skim of the stuff from overnight on the way to work. I'm inclined to believe dk's claim and it should be easy enough to mechanically confirm.

As for infinity, I was mulling over this last night and I reckon it's worth giving him a pass for now on a risk/reward basis ie if he is actually town then he can give us really useful info and if he isn't then we can still look at him on future days eg if he mysteriously isn't being nked

[Marky Mark]

well i dont think the claim makes koba town. i do think the claim means we wait a day to see if we can confirm koba's claim. i also dont see why the role has to be a town role. so maybe it doesnt change anything and its still a good elim

i dont think that they're a simple town mailman though.

Why in the bloody hell would they publicize a result then? Wouldn't they just wait till night and then ice Mark?

Yeah, so I didn't get a message last night, but I'm a town PR. I don't think there's any point holding this back now as it's obvious that if I was VT I would have CCed koba.

[Marky Mark]

Forgot to annotate the top quote, but basically I thought was shady of Taylor to say let's wait and then in the same breath say its maybe still a good elim

[Marky Mark]

Yeah, it's been a bit of a mission catching up the last 10 pages due to how much of it is excess heat

[Marky Mark]

Any of the more experienced players know how common mafia mailmen are in normals? Seems unlikely to me on initial impressions

DK's role ought to be easy to confirm via future night actions so just seems v unlikely to be scum

[Marky Mark]

FL hit the nail on the head that dk and infinity slots will become easier to sort over the game anyway due to what they've claimed so I'm suspicous of anyone voting/heavy SRing either slot atm but esp those on DK eg JV

[Marky Mark]

Btw I am not going to claim any more info on my PR than I've already given unless there is clear town consensus as it just gives info away to the scum. As it is, I don't have any extra knowledge on alignments, but I may be able to CC a fakeclaim if it overlaps with what I know

[Marky Mark]

me d1: scumreads mark heavily. is aware of no daychat going into n1
me n1: decides to check mark bc a scumread sometimes is just a pr read. knowing if someone is vanilla or not is useful in analyzing their play better(vanilla/pr tells)
me d1: outs my code towards mark for him to confirm. infinity claims. i scumread infinity and leave mark alone for the meantime because they could just be town pr esp with an infinity scum flip. im pretty sure >2 town pr would not be balanced with no daychat. i then start to townread infinity more despite their panic claim and i end up claiming bc i feel this implicates mark as a scum pr.

So your SR against me basically boils down to speculation on # of PRs in the setup to an extent?

[Marky Mark]

i dont vibe with ur reads at all

I mean we were voting each other D1 so I can see how I might look scummy fypov because I was SRing you

I've articulated why I was SRing you at reasonable length, so I hope you can see my pov in an objective sense

[Marky Mark]

@DK That sounds productive ref moving forwards

My plan to use the pool of 1st choice geraint voters yesterday (DGB, VP, Infinity, A50, FL) has been slightly undermined by the fact that the secondary wagon was also probably on town (dk) and even the infinity one is now iffy

DGB still an SR from me rn, and the change of position on dk almost immediately before dk claimed doesn't do them any favours here

Off the top of my head if town!dk is a thing (seems likely) then Taylor/JV are more in the mix than they were before. I will give FL a moderate amount of towncred for the infinity no result on him (doesnt prove anything but makes him less likely to be scum on average) and the fact his posts feel on the money today.

Based on all of the above, some other potential scum suspects atm are Taylor/JV/A50/VP tho not in any particular order (I would probably lean towards A50/VP being the scummier end, but this is all very loose)

Infinity I will park for now as if he is scum then there's a decent chance that having to make up results every day and mysteriously not getting nked will make him easier to read later on

Yes, I realise 5 players is like half the game at this point but I am just trying to apply some structured thinking to this as keeping up is exhausting rn

[Marky Mark]

I'm calling it a night there - please try not to generate another 10 pages tonight - we brits might be in lockdown, but I still have other things I need to do with my life!

Take care all

[Marky Mark]

Good evening all

Some thoughts:
@DGB - I've asked you before what made you change your mind overnight from refusing to being on the Koba wagon to being ok with eliming Koba pre-claim today. Would love to hear an answer

@Taylor - Why are you giving A50 a free pass? I'm reasonably prepared to believe that you've seen my scum game and know how poor it is, but would like to know why you TR A50 as "A50 is just always town." in 2325 isn't massively informative

2623 is another DGB trying hard to look town post (similar to 356, 1162)

[Marky Mark]

The more I look at the A50/Zedenek slot, the more I think it has the potential to be scum. Zed lurked and avoided making too many hard reads or saying anything controversial and then A50 at the end of day 1 was fairly consensus-y in saying he was ok with the top 3 wagons. If you look past the loose theorycraft, jokes and mechanics discussions, his posts are fairly vanilla.

I am very wary of DGB right now and one of the key reasons is it feels like she is coasting atm. I would rather see the day evolve by her stepping up and developing some of her reads in discussion with us, as I don't think a quick elim is helpful here. Ref her reaction to Geraint's lack of claim, I get that she might not know geraint's individual meta but I believe her to be an experienced enough player to see not claiming as being fairly NAI for that

type

of player, so her outrage at it feels like vote-justification

[Marky Mark]

The more I look at the A50/Zedenek slot, the more I think it has the potential to be scum. Zed lurked and avoided making too many hard reads or saying anything controversial and then A50 at the end of day 1 was fairly consensus-y in saying he was ok with the top 3 wagons. If you look past the loose theorycraft, jokes and mechanics discussions, his posts are fairly vanilla.

I am very wary of DGB right now and one of the key reasons is it feels like she is coasting atm. I would rather see the day evolve by her stepping up and developing some of her reads in discussion with us, as I don't think a quick elim is helpful here. Ref her reaction to Geraint's lack of claim, I get that she might not know geraint's individual meta but I believe her to be an experienced enough player to see not claiming as being fairly NAI for that

type

of player, so her outrage at it feels like vote-justification

[Marky Mark]

Just been having a look at a couple of the other slots that feel like they could be potential scum based on voting patterns yesterday (yes, I know correlation does not imply causation ). Let me braindump here:

Taylor I find it fairly hard to get a read on. In hindsight, the push against Gamma for putting a placeholder vote on N_M looks bad. One of the things about her that I find hard to sort is that she threw her vote around a decent bit yesterday between several wagons, including the DK and Infinity ones (the geraint vote looks like a compromise but even after voting him she still circled round infinity and koba again). Given those slots imo are either conftown or proven town, I'm just confused why scum in that spot would flip their vote around so much, but this is heading into the realms of deep WIFOM and making my head hurt

VP hasn't changed much from what I said yesterday - he has largely been after low-info slots other than his push on Taylor, which makes getting a strong read on him tricky.

Andres felt very town yesterday but will have to wait and see what we get from him today. JV I need to go back and ISO again

IDK even what we are going to do with N_M.

Right now, A50 would be my second choice elim after DGB

[Marky Mark]

^That was yesterday mate

[Marky Mark]

^That was yesterday mate

You said I haven't changed much from yesterday, implying I'm still doing that "other than taylor"

My

read

on you hasn't changed much from yesterday - ie you've not said anything that has stood out to me since as strongly AI, so I've not been able to refine it much further

[Marky Mark]

Like 2238 feels sus, but that's mainly scummy by association as you are defending what to me seems IMO like a very scummy player

Equally 2252 and 2600 feel townish, so rn I'm just genuinely finding it hard to sort you

[Marky Mark]

Let me actually tag 2252 and 2600 properly for the benefit of my fellow players #markyMarksMarkdownIssues

[Marky Mark]

Evening all

@DGB - I've asked you before what made you change your mind overnight from refusing to being on the Koba wagon to being ok with eliming Koba pre-claim today. Would love to hear an answer

There were some scummy posts but I'm back thinking they're town.

It just seemed like quite a change of position overnight so was wondering if it was a particular thing that made you reconsider.

I also don't feel much point engaging in a back and forth with Scummy Mark because there is nothing I could say that would make him realize I'm town.

The confbias in his posts about me is so thick and viscous that I find it hard to believe it comes from a townie trying to solve player's alignments.

He might have been egged on by another scumpal who wrongly think I

always

self-vote.

The confbias thing is a great discredit here and hard to objectively refute. I am actually trying to read your slot though, which is why I have been asking you questions such as the one above to try and understand the motivation behind your actions.

I also asked you a few times on D1 about the disparity in reads between N_M/Geraint for you and never got anywhere other than the soulmason jokey answer, so I hope you can see a.) that I am geniunely trying to sort you and b.) that the deflection of my question when I did so yesterday looked scummy fmpov

[Marky Mark]

Whatever thoughts you have. Right now I'm thinking about how scum would be behaving in a gamestate like this. I'm thinking the scum are doing a good job at not being suspected and/or controlling the discussion, explaining why town is kinda all over the place. That would point me toward you being scum. But I could be wrong and I wanna know what you think.

I genuinely think the opposite case may be true where there are 1-2 scum coasting in the background and allowing the town to dismantle itself. DGB/A50 would be prime examples of this. N_M I guess could kinda fit in that bracket as well, although that slot is just null for me bc I don't know how to read it

[Marky Mark]

Part of it was you bringing up the gerain tunnel again. It makes perfect sense as a scum tunnel because there wasn't really anything to trigger it and he was going after an easy target. Also his view that you and I are controlling the gamestate doesn't match up with his confidence in e.g. 2202, 2268, and 2271. It reminded me of when in haunted village I asked isis what her view of the gamestate was and she said "Scum are probably lurking but I'm gonna hammer noraa anyway". I feel like scum (esp. stronger scum) are likely to pretend they have a coherent view of the gamestate but it doesn't really make sense. Sometimes I just get strong scumvibes after I engage with people and they're usually right. I think town is more likely to do the think where you bounce reads off each other/float ideas and it feels natural whereas VP feels like he's just trying to convince me.

This got me thinking and looking back through VP's day 1 posts ref Geraint and N_M

Just thinking this though - VP says in 891 that he's ok with N_M as a last resort yeet (ie for low activity), but seems to be making the case on geraint being actively scummy (eg 1180)throughout the day, although he acknowledges in 474 N_M's point that geraint was just being his usual self (ie his lurking is nullish/NAI)

This just makes me scratch my head on why he found geraint actively scummy as opposed to simply in the nullish low-info bracket like n_m (it is very possible that he has explained this somewhere and I have missed it)

Like I also found geraint scummy initially, but then when other players explained that was par for him I went and read his gamesd and moved him to the null/low-info bin so I'm just curious why VP kept on active scumreading him in contrast to someone like n_m

[Marky Mark]

yeah VOTE: vp

I mean the immediate vote from Taylor off the back of my post is making me feel uneasy here (esp as she eaflier called me oblivious town). I still think DGB / A50 have a greater chance of being scum in the scheme of things but would like to hear a response from VP

[Marky Mark]

yeah VOTE: vp

I mean the immediate vote from Taylor off the back of my post is making me feel uneasy here (esp as she eaflier called me oblivious town). I still think DGB / A50 have a greater chance of being scum in the scheme of things but would like to hear a response from VP

i mean if you want my justification look back two pages.

Like I get that you were already SRing him, it just seemed quite quick to upgrade that to a vote off the back of what I'd mused, without waiting to hear VP's explanation first

[Marky Mark]

This just makes me scratch my head on why he found geraint actively scummy as opposed to simply in the nullish low-info bracket like n_m (it is very possible that he has explained this somewhere and I have missed it)

I don't remember if I explained it before, but very happy to now. Some of what bugged me about geraintm was that a) his postings were much more on the IIoA side of things. I didn't feel like he was genuinely scumhunting. b) he didnt really respond to pressure at all. It felt like he was ignoring my calls for his yeet, which is something I might do if I was scum being low activity. Try to wait it out.

Thanks for explaining - I agree that he was displaying the behaviours you mentioned, it just felt to me like this had been pointed out by others (N_M, taylor) to be reasonably NAI

[Marky Mark]

1-2 scum coasting in the background and allowing the town to dismantle itself. DGB/A50 would be prime examples of this.

This is the confbias again, you think of a bad thing and then you auto-claim I do it.

How was I coasting in the background when I was the most constant vote on geraint? Yes I wasn't around much at the beginning because of a publishing deadline that has now passed and as you can see I am very present and active.

I agree you're definitely way more active today and my gutfeel that you're lurking is somewhat subjective so I get that its harder to quantify, as opposed to other things I SR you for like your disparity of reads on geraint and N_M

I also get that you had irl stuff on d1 and I'm not thinking primarily in terms of postcount #s but more in terms of who was actively driving the game forward and posting new scrutiny/analysis. Eg Andres is a great example of a player whose postcount isn't that high but is definitely not coasting (based on his D1 play)

[Marky Mark]

Man, out of the 4 of those wagons, VP is like the actual worst one, Not Mafia.

I disagree

I genuinely don't know how we are going to sort this slot other than infinity targeting it every night in the hope they kill someone (obviously this isn't a legit plan and that is assuming town!infinity too)

[Marky Mark]

also i still have a massive headache hi

Yuck, sorry to hear that :S

[Marky Mark]

I don't suppose you fancy articulating why you are voting VP, N_M?

[Marky Mark]

eh, gut. note when he posts, where he pushes, why he thinks that. Not Mafia is a tone reader. Also the position of where everyone is reading him. People are ??? him. I don't think he's that much of a weaker read than anyone else is at this point.

I'm diving more into his VP vote, and yeah,he could actually be the scum on the wagon there. I can't read him correctly, who am I kidding. But he is more readable than people think is the point I was getting across.

I mean I guess some people find it easier to read based on tone/feel but I have ISOed him recently and am genuinely struggling here.

I get that like any slot it will become more readable as the game goes on, but I'm also cautious about giving potential scum!him a free pass

[Marky Mark]

Anecdotally, the problem that I have with "he just feels kinda off reads" (and I know I'm guilty of this too) is that its all to easy to use this as a safe motive for pushing an elim as if the target flips town it's not like you've stretched or made a logical error of deduction

X Post with A50 - I'm reasonably inexperienced (played a handful of games in 2014 then took a 6 year hiatus until COVID killed my social life) and the idea of TR hunting was a new one to me this game, but I can see the logic in it.

[Marky Mark]

Mark, how are you feeling about A50?

pedit: A50, didn't I ask you a question a short bit ago?

2656 by me is probably the best summary - they've not posted anything crawling in scumminess but a fair few bits of circumstantial evidence like first-choice geraint voting and a posting style from them and the player they replaced that make me feel like they are actively coasting. Like they've been reasonably active, but a great deal of that has been jokes/hypotheticals/mechanics related stuff

[Marky Mark]

I fully admit three is a reasonable amount of gutfeel in there - a good question to think about with a slot like that IMO would be 'if they were scum here, what if anything would they be doing differently?', which in their case I would currently posit would be 'not much'

[Marky Mark]

If I was scum I'd make up a better justification for my read

I'll bite here - wouldn't town you think that
a.) their own reads are not 100% infalliable, so explaining to the rest of the players their justification will help develop the read communally and flesh out whether it seems reasonable
b.) other players might not be seeing what you are seeing so it makes sense to convince them of your POV and win them round by justifying/explaining it

[Marky Mark]

If I was scum I'd make up a better justification for my read

I'll bite here - wouldn't town you think that
a.) their own reads are not 100% infalliable, so explaining to the rest of the players their justification will help develop the read communally and flesh out whether it seems reasonable
b.) other players might not be seeing what you are seeing so it makes sense to convince them of your POV and win them round by justifying/explaining it

I did explain my read

I mean explain it more thoroughly, you are correct, you did explain it (after prompting) so we are fighting over semantics here

[Marky Mark]

I'm going to call it a night there as Netflix/bed are calling my name. I largely agree with those who are calling to try to build up a bit of structure and consensus, this is kinda why I have been trying to be methodical today (d2) in narrowing down my pool of scumspects to focus on. I'm open to any reasonable(ish) ideas

Cheerio all - always a pleasure, never a chore

[Marky Mark]

Good evening all

You lot seem to love spewing out 10+ pages overnight (I guess my night is probs evening for anyone in the americas), which is adorable but also a bit of a mission to keep catching up with.

Bear with me while I try...

[Marky Mark]

I appreciate the discussion has moved on somewhat but I'm just going to post my thoughts/responses as I catch up and people can respond to them if they wish to or come back to them later

Seriously though; Marj is using the fact that I voted gera over Infinity/DkK on D1 as a reason to suspect me. Not only did HE also vote gera, but in order for his reasoning to have any merit there needs to have been a SCUM WAGON on the offer (so he can say I voted Town over Scum). Now if -hypothetically speaking- DkK/Infinity were both to flip overnight and they are both green, then I was being offered to vote a TOWNIE on D1 no matter where my vote went (of the 3 on offer).

It thus makes it a bad argument on Mark's part, unless he is Scum who KNOWS there to be scum between Infinity/DkK 9in which case his mind is projecting that my choice was bad because he already knows it was on the "wrong one" of the 3).

So I'm giving you townpoints here for your initial reaction to my 2384, which was articulated poorly by me and deserved the reaction it got. I agree that koba's claim seemed to come from a towny place and means that the secondary wagon may also well have been town. Infinity I am less sure of, but may be town too.

I articulated this in much greater detail than I have here in 2592, where I also added Taylor/JV (first choice DK) to the pool of potential scumspects based on this.

So yeah, first-choice voting geraint isnt as bad as it wouldve been if the other wagons were on super-scummy peeps, but voting a conftown over a townlean still seems like scummier behaviour on average

My point earlier still stands, just not as strongly as before now that dk seems likely to be town:

@VP - Clearly not everyone (or even the majority) who wanted geraint as a primary choice is scum, but there are likely IMO to be a subset of >= 1 people in there that were. It was a nullish, no info slot so I can understand people voting it but for that to go through as the primary option ahead of some arguably juicer and more tangible wagons on dk and infinity suggested to me that scum were likely involved in pushing it.

Put another way, being a primary geraint voter doesn't make people automatically scum, but it does give them in a general sense a higher liklihood of being scum, so it seems more fruitful to give more focus to looking for potential scum in this subset

[Marky Mark]

How does Mark seem to

know

there's scum between the two? And why did he vote gera himself if he thought one of the two was scum? And if it's a "new read" that he only developed on D2, then why is it not the same for me (or anyone else he put on that pool based on this bad reasoning)?? It's kinda hypocritical to claim "a group of people did this and I suspect them for it" when I myself have done the exact same thing at the exact same time frame.

Up to this point the line of questioning is fairly town++ from A50, but this is where it turns the corner into reaching

Ofc I don't know who scum is and I certainly didn't think that exactly one of the two of dk or geraint were scum, which is what you seem to be implying.

At the time, I thought dk was scum and geraint was null. I hammered geraint because it was preferable to a No Elim with <24h left but I certainly didn't find the slot actively scummy in the way that you seemed to, so my vote on him was coming from a different place for a different reason. It just really feels like you are misrepping here to present your vote and mine from the same place

-- predit : 10ish posts in the time it takes me to respond to one. This is not going to end well lol

[Marky Mark]

Btw please don't hammer while I'm catching up (not sure what the gamestate is at, but just seen mention of hammering on this page)

[Marky Mark]

More assorted catchup stuff

You can all go ahead and yeet me out of sheer boredom if you must.

I am vanilla and not optimistic about the town winning this.

So I am now starting to doubt myself somewhat on the DGB tone because i can't tell if she's genuinely disaffected or making 'trying to look town' posts

That's how

I

feel about Marky Mark. He's obsessed with shading me and hasn't noticed there are other players in the game.

I mean you are welcome to ISO me and see for yourself that I have been looking at other players too. Your slot seems scummy to me, and I worry that it will slide under the radar if I don't point it out

Infinity's logic that we shouldn't yeet him on the basis of setup is fairly poor, but I also think that Andres is pushing too hard. From a simple risk/reward perspective, we can look into infinity later if he mysteriously isn't NKed and the potential reward of town!him catching a scum in the act is massive.

2949 is good from FL, and I'll come back to that interaction to have a think about it once I've managed to avoid drowning in posts

2999 is potensh a look at how town I am post from FL. Just calling it out, although I'm still townleaning him generally and even more so if infinity's result is legit

Hasn’t Infinity been on Gamma, Koba who is clearly Town, and Geraintm? Why is Marky Mark concluding that Infinity is iffy on 2592?

I mean infinity's general posting seemed townish for most of day one and was iffier at deadline d1 and into d2, but the claim seems reasonably believeable and is something that will become clearer as the game goes on hence iffy rather than solid scum

Koba is Confirmed. The above is preposterous.

Towny but not confimed, unless you have information that the rest of us don't? Mailman can be any alignment under normal rules, altho I suspect it is liklier to be town on average

I'll deffo have to revisit pg 124 as there's loads there to unpick

[Marky Mark]

I'm a detective, vig claim was a joke

And your claim is useful how? As in what use is their in keeping you around? You’re never going to get a positive result I’m pretty sure.

What??

Alreay been said but good post. Andres push on infinity feelsbad in terms of general gamesense. I am also confident that the truth behind infinitys claim will come to the surface over time

[Marky Mark]

Currently trying to work out what ATE is and also who is on the Taylor wagon. Feel free to help me out here.

Off the top of my head I am not a big fan of Taylor wagon, but I am still trying to digest all of this

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Flavor

I’m not giving up on this entirely.

So we don’t waste time, I have a confirmable PR, that someone in this game is already aware of.

Move on.

This is a plot twist, if true

pedit -- cheers FL. Like I say, I will digest stuff (although probs more at the weekend) but going into today IRL I was nullish on Taylor

pedit 2 -- @DGB yeah, you are totally right, it's subjective. Scum!me would probably say this too but for different reasons

pedit 3 -- the repeated taylor wagon ramping up and diving down is really confusing me here

I also want to keep my PR powder reasonably dry, but I also have a plan that can confirm or deny infinity's claim overnight, as long as we are able to coordinate it before the end of the day and neither of us are NKed

[Marky Mark]

At a mechanical level, can DK confirm you're a FN rather than just that she received a message from you, which could (for sake of argument) be from mailman of either alignment?

Don't get me wrong I'm not SRing you here but just want to understand the situation.

I suspect JV may be a prisoner of timezones somewhat in terms of his posting frequency as he doesn't usually seem to be on at the same time as the action is going down

Andres was like a super solid TR for me until this IRL day, but the push (specifically the fact he was pushing him and not the fact he was SRing him) on Infinity, in particular, looked bad IMO

[Marky Mark]

Andres or DGB goes down today. I’d prefer Andres because it feels like DGB is more likely to go down.

Are we playing the same game? I've been highlighting why DGB feels scummy from me since D1 and struggling to get people to see things from my POV

Like I get the confbias thing and it is definitely possible to tunnel/confbias in this game, but I feel like its way too easy for a slot like that to sneak through in the background if not treated somewhat dogmatically

--pedit: cool, that makes sense. If infinity and I can coordinate actions for tonight ahead of time, we ought to have a decent pool of cleared players (FL, Infinity [assuming he isn't lying]) and at least one likelytown player (DK)

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: taylor

This hasn't changed as the right play despite the drama.

I disagree, but at any rate, I think we benefit here from having some time to revaluate things in light of the new alignment info

[Marky Mark]

I'm going to head to bed reasonably soon - all I've done today is a long shift at work, cook dinner and try to wase through the monsoon of posts - bleurgh

Let me just be super honest here, I don't feel like I'm confbiasing DGB but I'm just gonna call it how I see it and let the rest of you decide if I'm off my rocker:

She is on the Taylor wagon and climbs off as soon as it is clear that it is starting to lose momentum. She then votes FL, which she retracts when she realises he is conftown, but the fact that she was planning to pivot there before she realized there is circumstantial evidence, given that we now know FL's alignment

Andres has definitely gone up in my scum estimations over the course of this irl day, but I would like to (try) and keep some focus /scrutiny on DGB and A50 to an extent rn because I worry that if either/both of those slots are scum, they could easily be slipping past us rn while the town fight it out

Bonus point - now that FL/DK outed as conftown, I feel less worried about being nightkilled so what I propose tonight is this - @Infinity, tell me who you are going to target and I can use this info and my own PR to confirm or deny your claim. Yes, it tips scum off who you will be targetting, but will be worthwhile IMO to get your claim confirmed/denied

[Marky Mark]

Bonus point - now that FL/DK outed as conftown, I feel less worried about being nightkilled so what I propose tonight is this - @Infinity, tell me who you are going to target and I can use this info and my own PR to confirm or deny your claim. Yes, it tips scum off who you will be targetting, but will be worthwhile IMO to get your claim confirmed/denied

Scum can NK you, but revealing who I'm gonna target is fine since I can still find whoever killed on n1. I'll think about it, probably want to target A50 or DGB

I totally misunderstood your role - I thought you could target someone and it would tell you if they'd performed the NK that particular night.

Yeah totally scum can NK me but I am down with that, as it would keep the FN alive, and they would have bigger problems. Just let me know!

Good night all - please try not to get too overexcited with the posting lol, it is genuinely a struggle to stay abreast of everything being written, much less have the capacity to scrutinize it all

[Marky Mark]

So I've skimmed this in the bus on the way to work.

I am starting to wonder if I'm miles off on my DGB read because nobody else seems to be seeing what I'm seeing eg her backing down on Taylor when it was clear the wagon was losing momentum to pivot to JV felt scummy to me but FL is townreading that post.

I will go back over Taylor's iso tonight but I'm just not really seeing scum!her other than circumstantially (eg her wagon has now died off twice when it got too much heat) RN

If it's clear there's no will for a DGB elim then Andres would probs me my next feasible choice at this point based on the hardpush of infinity yesterday irl and the push on FL preclaim. The tmi stuff idk he could genuinely got the role wrong in his head (having done exactly the same thing with Infinity myself)

[Marky Mark]

And yeah, me verifying inf doesn't clear me, but at least if I wind up dead you'll know I was telling the truth on inf

[Marky Mark]

I am not voting JV, he is bleeding green.

Apologies, I am clearly getting things muddled. You pivoted to FL and then to me when you saw FL was conftown.

I mean there's a fine line between tunneling and treating a SR dogmatically to stop them slipping under the radar. I feel like I'm the right side of that line, but that's one for the other players to decide

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Marky Mark

After JV’s rant there, I’m thinking that vote is off.

I'm not voting or even SRing JV

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Marky Mark

After JV’s rant there, I’m thinking that vote is off.

I'm not voting or even SRing JV

Oh wait, I get it - you're saying that

you

are no longer SRing JV, ergo you have decided to plonk a vote on me

Not particularly AI but amusing: that's 4/4 claimed PRs that you have now pushed this game

[Marky Mark]

@Andres, apologies, you are correct ref Koba, I had it in my head you voted her D1 for some reason

Pedit - I have explained at great length why I SRed Koba D1 and a good dose of that was her discrediting and refusal to answer simple questions. Yes, I was incorrect but I followed up my points with her because I didn't want her to avoid scrutiny by deflecting (eg the repeated refusal to explain the inconsistencies in 909)

[Marky Mark]

Like this is why I'm finding it hard with DGB ATM - if I pursue a slot that keeps deflecting I get painted with confbias/tunneling and if I don't then they slink back under the radar

[Marky Mark]

@Andres - I can see how that kinda makes sense fypov, although the point I made D1 was that while Koba may naturally be an aggressive player, clearly she is still going to be scum some of the time, and her posting looked like she was on this occasion, ie it went beyond just simply being in-your-face. Clearly, I was wrong.

-- pedit: After the mailman claim, she seemed very likely town for a few reasons
-Town mailman seems a more likely role on average than scum mailman in terms of setups
-She was SRing me and her reaction seemed to very much be of a townie who thought they might have caught scum
-I just don't see why scum!dk would benefit particularly from revealing their hand there (I guess you could argue to let them scumbuddies know bc no daytalk, but what are they going to do with that info during the day?)

I am now reading dk as pretty much conftown as it seems v likely that they and FL are legit re FL's FN claim

[Marky Mark]

Apologies for the wrong pronoun use in the pedit above. DK's avatar keeps throwing me, but I will try to get it right in future

[Marky Mark]

@VP - Both are slightly nuanced.

Infinity was towny for most of D1 but has said some stuff late D1 onwards into D2 that seems quite scummy - an example of this would their logic that they are likely town because they are the only claimed major investigative. As I have articulated before though from a game sense risk/reward POV though, it makes sense to keep them alive right now, especially as I can verify them tonight.

This is why I can understand Andres SRing infinity, but the fact he was actually pushing him seems scummy because it just doesn't feel in our interests right now

Taylor I am nullish on - I thought her criticism of Gamma's placeholder vote on N_M was opportunistic and she flipped between several of the main wagons yesterday but the wider general feel of her posts is townish and it feels like she has been trying to actively scumhunt (certainly more than some others rn) so I just don't think its a good elim choice compared to some others (DGB, A50, Andres)

[Marky Mark]

Let me try and get across where my reads are at RN

Conftown{FL, Koba}
Could well be town{JV}
Middling{VP, Taylor} | Low-info {N_M}
Potentially scummy{A50, Andres, Infinity} - A50 is more gutfeel here based on posting style, the other two are more based on tangible things they've said/done
Scummy{DGB}

Infinity is a special case where due to PR mechanics it just does not make sense to elim him today

[Marky Mark]

I feel like I am definitely not currently understanding all the connotations of the Taylor/VP interactions, and that will be a bit of a job for the weekend. There's just a lot to keep up with.

[Marky Mark]

im home but im assembling a chair

As excuses for busyness goes, this is definitely the most random one I've heard lol. Genuinely snorted the sherry I was drinking in reaction

[Marky Mark]

Evening all

i mean theyre pretty much conftown based on claims.

That looks even worse, the conftowns are conftowns, he has no actual reads, then DGB-DEATH-TUNNEL

Let me try and get across where my reads are at RN

Conftown{FL, Koba}
Could well be town{JV}
Middling{VP, Taylor} | Low-info {N_M}
Potentially scummy{A50, Andres, Infinity} - A50 is more gutfeel here based on posting style, the other two are more based on tangible things they've said/done
Scummy{DGB}

Infinity is a special case where due to PR mechanics it just does not make sense to elim him today

Conftowning the two most vocal players

Everything else is a wash

DGB scum wah wah wah wah wah

I love the initiative of trying to shade me based on your original understanding of my DK/FL reads and then shading me from a different angle when it was pointed out to you that you'd misunderstood my reason

You accuse me of confbias but then have literally tried to interpret multiple explanations of the same read here to make them look scummy regardless

[Marky Mark]

My vote is on Marky Mark isn't budging and I will not join any of the hundreds of flaccid failwagons that are going to pop up.

Marky Mark is scum and probably and Iecerint alt.

I literally have no idea who Icerint is other than the context in this thread. Your assertion that I have no reads is also clearly false; you are welcome to check my ISO to see this for yourself

[Marky Mark]

A50, your nonvoting is starting to bug me actually.

At least my vote is static. Everyone else has vote-hopped like a dozen times which is confusing the hell out of me. I dare anyone to use "X wagon was getting resisted which indicates they're scum" as an argument in this game, because EVERYONE'S wagon is/had been resisted fiercely.

By post content; everyone looks more townie than scummy to me. By VCA though; everyone looks more scummy than townie.

If I am to sheep someone it'd be N_M (at least he isn't FoSing the whole game and the players of neighboring games too!!)

I get that excessive vote-hopping isn't helpful as it makes it hard to see the patterns when going back over things later on but I think its helpful to declare intent. I've seen your posts with some of your key TRs and I've seen your pushback on me pushing you, but it would also be good to understand who you think is scum here

[Marky Mark]

I am content to vote Andres (or possibly A50 but as that is more of a feel-read, I'd rather refine it by hearing more from him (eg on his scum suspects as requested)) to reach a consensus if there is no will for an elim on DGB but it's hard to look past here when she slings stuff like above eg insinuating that I have no reads - I genuinely don't understand how other people aren't seeing this !?

[Marky Mark]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84658
^mark's scumgame

I think the best way to describe my scum play in that game would be to say that the scumteam won in spite of me, rather than me having any active involvement in our success

You have no reads Mark, just a bunch of nebulous, shapeless positions.

This is half true. There are definitely slots (eg VP, Taylor) that I am struggling to get a firm read on, which is partially because there is just so much to wade through. It's an interesting line of attack from DGB though as
a.) At one end of the scale, I think I've articulated why I suspect the people I do at reasonable length
b.) At the other end, I think it would be weird to have a bunch of stone cold reads on D2 - eg contrast with her stating earlier today she was firmly going to elim either Taylor or I (2616)
c.) I would argue that my reads and who I have voted for have flip-flopped significantly less than most of the playerbase, so while you could argue that is scummy in and of itself, it does seem to be a bit of a stretch to say that my reads are nebulous/shapeless

[Marky Mark]

@VP & @MM: EVERYONE is a suspect from my PoV. (That's probably an exaggeration, as I TR Taylor and I 100% buy Infinity's claim). HOWEVER, I don't

really

SR anyone. (as in "being confident enough that I want to eliminate them today").

Suffice it to say I would rather vote Jo Jorgensen (which I kinda am).

Let's try this from a slightly different angle - if you had the casting vote, which player(s) would you choose to elim today?

[Marky Mark]

Like this is why I'm finding it hard with DGB ATM - if I pursue a slot that keeps deflecting I get painted with confbias/tunneling and if I don't then they slink back under the radar

Why do you have an issue with deathtunneling who you think is scum. A 1 for 1 is against scum.

I think deathtunneling is not quite the right word here because:
a.) I don't know for sure that DGB

is

scum, it just seems likely to me. I remain open to being convinced otherwise by her actions
b.) I am probably going to have to vote elsewhere to help reach a consensus elim as few other players seem to SR her (which is making me second guess myself somewhat)

The post you are quoting was me voicing my frustration that I was getting shaded for tunneling, while if I hadn't pressed the issue with her she would've happily continued to deflect and coast

[Marky Mark]

c.) I would argue that my reads and who I have voted for have flip-flopped significantly less than most of the playerbase, so while you could argue that is scummy in and of itself, it does seem to be a bit of a stretch to say that my reads are nebulous/shapeless

Very consistent and stable nebulous reads - can you scum more????

How can you call me scummy for having consistent reads with a straight face while making posts like 2616/3508?

As to nebulous, is there a particular read or reads you could use as an example of this?

[Marky Mark]

Flip. Right, regardless of alignment this isn't good that we've rushed this. without being able to organize ourselves.

Infinity - I really need to know who you are targetting tonight or I can't verify you

A50 - I would really really like to know who your preferred elim choice(s) would've been before we have any sort of flip to provide some accountability

[Marky Mark]

2173

I don't quite follow sorry

[Marky Mark]

that we've rushed this.

Looks at page count. Looks directly into camera.

In the sense that we have not coordinated PR night actions (ie infinity hasn't told me who he is targetting so that I can verify him) and also in the sense that we've not had a claim. I agree in terms of post #s that it's been a marathon today

[Marky Mark]

2173

I don't quite follow sorry

You dont have to (;

I mean if your point is that you think infinity is scum anyways (which he could well be) then being able to verify this will prove it, so its in our interests whatever his alignment is

-- pedit thanks - that's useful

[Marky Mark]

I suspect FL would be the obvious NK choice due to his PR, but in the unlikely (IMO) case that I die here then it could well mean infinity is scum and was in danger of being verified.

[Marky Mark]

esp cUse they weren't on this wagon

Lmao - assuming Taylor is telling the truth here and is legit town you're basically shading me for not wanting to elim someone who turned out to be town

Also - I now keep getting spammed with ads for gaming chairs after clicking on the link you sent yesterday

[Marky Mark]

Have a seat. You are not "open to being convinced" because you are scum and DIE SCUM DIE.

You may have to work a bit harder than making nonsensical attacks like this to convince me

[Marky Mark]

She's town.

She can't read Marky Mark though.

Hey Mark don't forget to NK me.

Let's posit the (seemingly) unlikely scenario that you're actually town here and are misreading me as scum. What do posts like this even achieve?

I have pursued you dogmatically today based on my suspicions, but I have tried to articulate why I SR you along the way so that you can refute my points if I am mistaken. You seem pretty determined to hard tunnel based on half-baked conjecture while simultaneously shading me for tunneling you

[Marky Mark]

She's town.

She can't read Marky Mark though.

Hey Mark don't forget to NK me.

Let's posit the (seemingly) unlikely scenario that you're actually town here and are misreading me as scum. What do posts like this even achieve?

I have pursued you dogmatically today based on my suspicions, but I have tried to articulate why I SR you along the way so that you can refute my points if I am mistaken. You seem pretty determined to hard tunnel based on half-baked conjecture while simultaneously shading me for tunneling you

Mafia isn't about "refuting points" that are, in your case, not even points. I wouldn't even dignify your so-called points with the label "moon logic" - moon logic is too good for you.

Congrats to your non-bus'ing scum team. You'll probably win without personnel loss at this rate.

Please can we play the game with a level of respect? You have every right to disagree with me, but there's no need for personal attacks.