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Post #1941 (isolation #200) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:40 am
Postby Andresvmb »
The same point you are making about Noraa with Johnny, you could make about me with Flavor (I suspect you don’t believe Flavor and I could be the Team, but I’ve seen crazier things being thrown out there). With Flavor under pressure, I said this:
In post 406, Flavor Leaf wrote:Also, you were saying I don't run games as town, but I specifically run games as scum (one because it helps) because I have a tendency to powertown.
I prefer playing troll town, then popping out of nowhere late game and solving, but I never get to do that anymore.
Yeah that’s what I’ve seen from you, is true. Look I don’t know what your alignment is, but provided I don’t get overly Scummy vibes from you (and I haven’t), I think bouncing my thoughts off of you is helpful.
I’m not ready to stick my neck out completely for Flavor. But you would agree that Flavor is a good player as Town and not just Scum yeah? So I am of the opinion that we should at least try and give Flavor some time to actually show their alignment and not just execute there because of a self-vote. We have enough players with a sufficiently strong reputation I think that we can quickly turn against Flavor if necessary.
I find it hard to believe that there’s this many people that are quite certain that Flavor is Scum when I’ve literally come out of several games where Flavor was impossible to eliminate even when Flavor was openly pushing a narrative that defied several events that had occurred throughout the game.
Yet you give me no credit for any of it, because it doesn’t fit your narrative.
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Post #1942 (isolation #201) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:43 am
Postby Andresvmb »
The point is that Scum can and do look to pocket players, and do make arguments about why certain Town players should be kept around. So your point about what Noraa did to Johnny can’t be coming from Scum is bad. Noraa leading the charge against Johnny would also make Noraa look bad I would point out. So maybe you want to keep the shade going to discredit, but not push too hard not to put yourself. Like it’s entirely possible, yet you insist on seeing Noraa’s actions under the best possible light, and mine under the worst one.
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Post #1944 (isolation #203) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:16 am
Postby Andresvmb »
One thing I would point out is that Noraa keeps saying that their meta is hard to change. And they are highlighting that their results should indicate that this is not their Scum game. But I can point out a few things that they’ve done this game that absolutely fit their Scum meta.
For instance, they came out and accused me of OMGUS’ing, while arguing that I am Scum.
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Post #1949 (isolation #204) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:44 am
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 1944, Andresvmb wrote:One thing I would point out is that Noraa keeps saying that their meta is hard to change. And they are highlighting that their results should indicate that this is not their Scum game. But I can point out a few things that they’ve done this game that absolutely fit their Scum meta.
For instance, they came out and accused me of OMGUS’ing, while arguing that I am Scum.
How about using someone’s join date against them? Also in that game. Oh, or laughing at someone else’s reasoning? viewtopic.php?p=12164223#p12164223
Do I need to keep going?
I’m not putting myself in the Team because I’m Town. This is like elementary stuff. I don’t have a problem being included in someone else’s POE - I would argue that makes sense. But if you expected me to argue that I myself should be considered as part of a Scum Team... I have nothing to say to you.
I’m going to stick to my guns and my vote here. The idea that the Scum never intended to bus is ridiculous. It’s also something that Noraa is perfectly capable of doing btw.
Also, is Noraa really saying that Insano and I are tied, but Insano has “very good tone and seems super Townie”? Sure. Inscrutable arguments seem to be Noraa’s specialty.
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Post #1955 (isolation #206) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:56 am
Postby Andresvmb »
Well you know at least I’m flattered. You’ve decided I’m such a threat that you had to try and straight up bury me in a game. I respect that. You’ll also never going to be able to get away with it now. You’ve made such a big fuss about it that if I do flip, you won’t get to live it down as an honest mistake.
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Post #1957 (isolation #207) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:58 am
Postby Andresvmb »
This post is terrible! Terrible reasoning! You use the SAME words as Scum without understanding what it is you’re actually arguing.
Scum theater isn’t typically associated with someone making a game state comment about a slot. It would be if we fought hard against each other as Scum both, or if we went for the full we’re an alliance that can’t be beaten.
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Post #1962 (isolation #209) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:00 am
Postby Andresvmb »
I never voted Flavor. Not once. Not even threw a SR in that direction. I did say I would consolidate there if forced to, but that I remained skeptical at the idea that Flavor was Scum. If I was looking for someone to give me permission to vote there, I sure did it wrong.
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Post #1966 (isolation #210) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:05 am
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 1964, unwnd wrote:Is there anything based on your push of Andres that you're uncertain about? Don't get yourself into a tunnel where you just start confbiasing everything they do as scum.
Andres you too, I can't believe I have to say this at all lol
Have you even read my progression on the slot? It’s like you refuse to pay attention to what’s immediately in front of you to avoid confrontation.
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Post #1968 (isolation #211) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:07 am
Postby Andresvmb »
And when I flip Town, you should get executed. This bad faith attempt at painting everything I’ve done as Scummy or terrible should get you executed. If not because it would confirm the obvious, to teach you a lesson.
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Post #1970 (isolation #212) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:12 am
Postby Andresvmb »
I’m pretty sure Noraa is Scum. Too many bad faith arguments being made against me for it to make sense as anything else.
And Insano’s position is untenable. I will flip Town. And Insano will be forced to confront the reality that the Scum bussed. Just watch the reaction when that’s the case. Insano can’t openly argue that Flavor and I are the Team, because then their hypothesis that the Scum did not bus collapses. So they have to push a very narrow reality that geraintm and I are the Scum Team. This idea will have to be discarded one way or the other. And Insano not even being open to that possibility until one of geraintm/me being executed should be a red flag to you.
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Post #1972 (isolation #214) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:20 am
Postby Andresvmb »
For example, I directly stated that I would not push for a policy execution of shellyc because that’s not how I play, and that I look to evaluate players in a game based on the merits. Noraa’s interpretation? That I was looking for a policy execution of shellyc. So regardless of what I actually said (or the fact that I gave shellyc a TR early) I was *looking* for a PL because well, it fits the narrative. It’s a bad faith argument.
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Post #1973 (isolation #215) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:23 am
Postby Andresvmb »
You’ll also notice that I am being shaded for giving geraintm some crap for their Day 1 play (which was an attempt to encourage them to post and not shy away from putting their views out there). If geraintm is confScum, as Noraa has declared, why does my shade there count against me? That’s, again, absurd. If you want to argue it’s theater by all means. But the actual argument put forth doesn’t make sense.
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Post #1974 (isolation #216) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:25 am
Postby Andresvmb »
And now all of my solid reads are TMI? That’s not how TMI works btw. Noraa is completely ignoring the actual progression behind a read, and arguing that any read she supposedly agrees with is based on too much information. But how convenient is that?
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Post #1976 (isolation #217) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:30 am
Postby Andresvmb »
Here is what Noraa fails to understand. When you ask someone else for reads, it’s not necessarily to replace your views with theirs. It’s to see how they’re viewing the game, and whether it makes sense to you. You’ll notice for example that I asked Johnny for his solve too, and he provided it. I questioned it at first, trying to figure out if it made sense. Then Johnny modified it a bit, and was NK’ed. That helps inform my own reads of course, but it never fully replaces what I’m seeing.
Painting all such interactions as just me looking to hide behind others is pretty rich, and is being done in bad faith. This just isn’t Town. It can’t be - that would be awfully sad.
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Post #1979 (isolation #218) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:32 am
Postby Andresvmb »
The explanation Noraa is providing for my shift on shellyc is obviously incomplete. More bad faith. Go read how I explained it at the beginning of D2. A lot of it is just being ignored because it doesn’t fit.
In post 1972, Andresvmb wrote:For example, I directly stated that I would not push for a policy execution of shellyc because that’s not how I play, and that I look to evaluate players in a game based on the merits. Noraa’s interpretation? That I was looking for a policy execution of shellyc. So regardless of what I actually said (or the fact that I gave shellyc a TR early) I was *looking* for a PL because well, it fits the narrative. It’s a bad faith argument.
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Post #1986 (isolation #222) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:37 am
Postby Andresvmb »
And yet I was TR’ing there. Being careful against players with good reputations is done by everyone. It’s like you forget that the same argument was made against Flavor by others. But if it doesn’t fit your narrative, just ignore it right? Not useful?
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Post #1992 (isolation #224) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:07 am
Postby Andresvmb »
Noraa you should make up your mind about my interactions with plus. Because if I recall correctly, you shaded me for disagreeing there. And now you’re saying I was too agreeable?
There’s one thing about plusJOYED that I’ll say. I recall feeling very disconnected with plusJOYED when we were both Town, and we exchanged SRs, and I also remember thinking that they were very wrong. I was partly right, but overly harsh. I’m finding myself this game wanting to trust plus. Which maybe should give me pause? Like plus is making some sense, but it’s also a decently strong defense of shellyc/Noraa that I’m having trouble fighting against. Though it’s also based on an interpretation of the NK, which isn’t reliable.
I’ll agree that if Noraa flips Scum, then look at plus and Johnny is probably Town. I think you’re Town.
I don’t trust nopoint’s attacks on your Claim in particular. I would be fine with nopoint making arguments about your playstyle more, or how your perspective doesn’t make sense. But it’s a very narrow focus, and one which helps avoid contradictions or too much scrutiny.
uh no. you don't shade conftown.
It’s like you say whatever you think will stick, even if it directly disagrees with whatever you said previously. And mind you, this is about the exact same interaction.
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Post #1993 (isolation #225) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:08 am
Postby Andresvmb »
I’m not trying to prove I’m Town. I don’t give a crap about that. I’m demonstrating why you’re Scum, and how your arguments are not based in reality, or from a Town perspective.
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Post #1996 (isolation #226) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:11 am
Postby Andresvmb »
Yet I directly questioned it, and ended up fighting it. Again, you fail to actually apply what’s happened, but just morph the facts to fit whatever it is you feel like saying. I’m sorry to have to say it again, but it’s not true.
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Post #1998 (isolation #227) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:17 am
Postby Andresvmb »
@unwnd you’ll notice now that Noraa has been forced to change their narrative about how my read of shellyc changed, without directly addressing it. Instead, now it’s a story of how I didn’t have the guts to push shellyc, even when confTown plus was disagreeing with me.
This is a great example of the bad faith I was talking about. If it doesn’t fit one way, it sure fits some other way.
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Post #2000 (isolation #228) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:24 am
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 1997, Noraa wrote:My point is that u barely have moments where ur just like "no that's not true"
you normally say "I believe this but I COULD SEE THAT"
its agreeing.
the end result doesn't particularly matter otherwise we'd never catch scum as long as they bus one member.
In post 488, JohnnyFarrar wrote:Main 3 (Nopoint notmaf Hank) with flavor and you as distraction or potential scum if i'm wrong about one in main 3
I really don’t see this solve so I’m very intrigued by it. You have a completely null slot in Hank, Not_Mafia (who I will grant you could be Scum, very difficult to tell for me this early), and nopoint? Huh.
I’m not seeing it, so I’m trying to get more than justifications based on the self-vote play. Flavor clearly posted reads - anything that raised some flags from that?
Titus I might understand the context behind this, but do you have any reasoning you want to share for the vote?
No. I am still in RVS. I haven't read at all and want to get wagons going. Since rationing my meds, my reads have gotten worse too so I am letting others lead.
Claiming to still be treating the game as if it were in RVS when you’re pushing the top wagon closer to execution and there’s this many pages of content seems rather difficult to believe wouldn’t you agree? If you haven’t read, why would you put such a dangerous vote down? I’m struggling to understand the logic here.
In post 530, Dunnstral wrote:I think we need to stop townreading flavor for mysterious 'he wouldn't play like this' reasons and hold him to a higher standard, that means elimming him when his play is bad/scummy
I don't trust anyone's read on him that has him as town at this point in time
I don’t understand this post at all. Where has anyone uttered a TR of Flavor based on the fact that he wouldn’t “play this way as Scum”? Can you point me to it? Because off the top of my head, I don’t recall anyone really making that argument.
What specifically about his play has been Scummy to you? Outside of him obviously SR’ing you, how do you think his approach is not from a Town POV?
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Post #2001 (isolation #229) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:25 am
Postby Andresvmb »
You know what I think? I think you’re so dead set in painting me as Scum that you’re literally willing to say anything that’ll make me look like Scum. Even if it’s easily refutable. So I am going to stop arguing with you, because it’s pointless, and will just let others intervene.
In post 1998, Andresvmb wrote:@unwnd you’ll notice now that Noraa has been forced to change their narrative about how my read of shellyc changed, without directly addressing it. Instead, now it’s a story of how I didn’t have the guts to push shellyc, even when confTown plus was disagreeing with me.
This is a great example of the bad faith I was talking about. If it doesn’t fit one way, it sure fits some other way.
I didn't say that. don't lie.
I’m not.
In post 1975, Noraa wrote:There is no progression. And I have to say Titus dead really does not be shelly scum at all.
In post 1989, Noraa wrote:I mean this describes ur stance pretty well except you didn't have the guts to push so you shaded instead.
In post 1773, Andresvmb wrote:@plus I hate to say it but you should not have listened to me once nopoint flipped Scum. I am clearly off this game.
I was looking back in shame - I think unwnd is Town. I’m also not voting {plus, Flavor}.
VOTE: geraintm
my faith in you has been shaken quite hard after nopoint and fuzzy tbh
You’re shading me too hard about Fuzzy, and you failed to catch my updated read. If you had shot amongst the people I actually described as Scum and turned out Town, I would agree with you more.
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Post #2014 (isolation #232) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:32 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
Pfft that is a gross misrepresentation of your Scum game Noraa. All anybody has to do is go read the game I quoted, where you couldn’t get out of a tunnel and were supremely abrasive.
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Post #2016 (isolation #234) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:33 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
I don’t think you should Vig geraintm plus - if both Insano and Noraa are pushing there, and Noraa flips Scum, why would you trust them enough to shoot there? That doesn’t make sense.
In post 2014, Andresvmb wrote:Pfft that is a gross misrepresentation of your Scum game Noraa. All anybody has to do is go read the game I quoted, where you couldn’t get out of a tunnel and were supremely abrasive.
Which one was that?
And also I think I, a person that has written every single post I've posted and read every single post know better what my meta is that some random person that briefly skimmed a few pages of one of my scum games.
“Briefly skimmed”. I love it.
I didn’t briefly skim. I actually read your posts, and compared them to things you’ve done this game. Just look at my ISO.
In post 2015, Andresvmb wrote:Btw I agree I should be Vigged if Noraa flips Town if only to force the Town to look closer at what’s happening this game.
this is very dumb. wtf is this logic?
Why don’t you ask for the logic before calling it dumb? You’re like a fucking child.
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Post #2025 (isolation #237) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:41 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 2018, Insanoflex wrote:I just feel like your tenor toward me between last night and now changed really dramatically. I'm not inclined to totally rule out the possibility that scum bussed, but my FIRST INSTINCT on any scum flip is not to look for bussers, and interaction-wise, that seemed less likely. The idea that no other wagon could gain traction is a weird one to me, given you can see we had 3-vote wagons on me, nora, and johnny at one point (and that's 2 wagons on town fmpov, minimum).
3 votes when you need 7 and the entire Scum Team is alive is not much now is it? That’s my point. If I’m actually trying to protect nopoint, I would have coordinated a wagon with a Town person onto another Town and away from nopoint. I was voting for you by myself. Pretty stupid strategy if I’m trying to do what you’re arguing I was doing. It doesn’t matter - there will be clarity sooner rather than later. I’m just telling you, you’re wrong, and should re-evaluate.
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Post #2027 (isolation #238) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:44 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 2023, Noraa wrote:Town never thinks that they are fine with dying if their top SR flips town. That is not a townie mindset.
Again - you’re not even asking me about my logic. You just think you know better than anyone when... you don’t.
I want to be Vigged if you flip Town only to eliminate the possibility of wasting another day on this nonsense. If you are Town, I’m getting executed the next day out of some sense that this course of action is reasonable. It’s not and I’m Town but whatever I want to win. It’ll just be a distraction and we’re better off with me not in the game at that point. I don’t think it’s particularly likely, but I’ll accept it.
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Post #2029 (isolation #239) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:46 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 2024, Noraa wrote:Also stop trying to gas me up. The shitfight is over and continuing it is truly babyish.
You keep calling logic you can’t even grasp dumb, and every argument you don’t like terrible. The only person not actually engaging with the content but gaslighting is you. Stop accusing me of doing exactly what you’re doing.
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Post #2032 (isolation #240) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:52 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
That’s the most obvious pocket attempt I have ever seen.
plus you should absolutely ignore what either Noraa or I want, and discuss with the more obvious Town players in the game to lay out a strategy that’s sensible. I have made my suggestions but you can feel free to ignore anything I’m saying.
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Post #2044 (isolation #243) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:11 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
It’s almost what you’re doing here - just calling everything terrible or dumb, using a bunch of sarcasm to bash arguments that get closer to you or your Scummates. Arguing complete nonsense and twisting somebody’s posts to all look like Scum. You were directly called out for that in that game, or you forget?
Your definition of aggressive or abrasive is so narrow, it’s useless. So unless you directly rally others to vote a certain way, you can’t be aggressive?
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Post #2058 (isolation #249) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:36 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
Whatever I don’t even care all that much about that game. My point very much stands - you are trying to paint yourself as an agreeable, UTR Scum who always lives until the end and is never suspected. It’s just not the case. plus was in that game too.
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Post #2063 (isolation #251) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:41 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
Again, I’m not pointing to that game for the actual outcome. I’m pointing to that game so that others can understand how you react under pressure as Scum. You went whiny and aggressive. Just like you’re doing here. You’re overly focused on the result - not so focused on how you respond.
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Post #2066 (isolation #252) » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:46 pm
Postby Andresvmb »
Okay I got a bit confused with the mechanics. Yes, Battle Mage had you as their top TR. That caused a check that exposed you. So I take back my conclusion on Battle Mage.
But still, you keep focusing on the result. I am right about how you reacted under pressure, and the sort of arguments you make as Scum. You weren’t UTR. If you had been, nobody would have had strong feelings about your slot.
For example, had Fuzzy been Scum, you would call that UTR a bit. Or if geraintm flipped Scum.
In post 2063, Andresvmb wrote:Again, I’m not pointing to that game for the actual outcome. I’m pointing to that game so that others can understand how you react under pressure as Scum. You went whiny and aggressive. Just like you’re doing here. You’re overly focused on the result - not so focused on how you respond.
you did some jackshit skimming and come pointing ur damn finger at me. none of ur points stand even remotely cuz u fucking skimmed like hell.
I am using this game to show I'm town bc this game DOES SHOW IM TOWN. But u are trying so hard to say it doesn't when u can't even get some simple facts right.
I’m not really going to say much about your game overall here until after this is over. Once this game is done, we can discuss.
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Post #2085 (isolation #258) » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:20 am
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 2082, Dunnstral wrote:Our gameplan:
9 people alive today' insaneo protects plusjoyed. We lim and shoot and mafia shoots, and we're at 6 tomorrow. With plus alive we repeat and go to 3 alive
So protecting plusjoyed tonight is important because we get 4 town kills, 2 mafia kills. But is plus dies we have 3 town kills 3 mafia kills
We won’t get that far unless we hit Scum. But yes the plan should be to protect plus tonight. That’s the only part that should be completely fixed.
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Post #2105 (isolation #259) » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:12 am
Postby Andresvmb »
In post 2102, unwnd wrote:I think killing Gera now would be a more peaceful solution with letting the vig decide between Noraa/Andres tonight. I think Noraa feels like everyone is against her and if she's scum then she's just going to continue to turtle and do the same things she's doing. Andres so far doesn't seem interested in doing anything but defending himself and accusing Noraa all the same, and I am quite tired of it and not willing to entertain either lim.
I’m sorry but you’re not reading my posts if this is what you actually think. I’ve done more than just defend myself. I had a productive back to back with Insanoflex as well, which reveals some insistence on interpreting the game without Scum bussing despite the points I’ve put forth.