Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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I haven't kept the biggest tabs on this game (generally just like replacing), but I would say my gutcheck on Lunar was town. They have a certain alertness in their posts that doesn't feel manufactured or has partners in mindIn post 819, Papa Zito wrote:Lunar does the scum thing of throwing shade, presuming intent in the worst light possible. They're either scum or exceptionally bad town, and either way need to be removed before endgame.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Without looking at Hayker fully (not that it's a hard ISO), is the consensus made on him based on lack of activity? The 22 posts when I clicked the ISO button stuck out like a sore thumb. 827 posts into D2 actually doesn't seem that bad, but if I were assuming our disposition it would be that most people are presuming a lurkscum and the proclaimed apathy is assuming scum is lowballing
I can tell you right now that I think this is a bit short-sighted, based on my own previous experience and just in general. While this game didn't have a No-Lim, Innocent Things was largely driven by scum and we found ourselves in a position where it was increasingly hard to latch onto things or even manipulate townies, with the clause being that..the townies weren't there to manipulate. Do I believe that is what is happening here? Not really, but I think discussing perspective is what engages meStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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From a replacement standpoint I think the Hayker aspect is solid, but the Papa Zito one required more of my actual presence in those instances. I think it's pretty much unlikely that a wagon gets flipped if the IC is calling for a death and writing a case on them either way. My vote will probably stay for that reasonStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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I kinda wanted that [perspective] but I'm sure I'll get it on flip. If Hayker does flip scum however I agree with the methodology that scum is aware their partner is fucked. Your own experience has left you that could be Zito, but is there anyone on this wagon you could suspect for getting towncred? And by chance of Hayker just being doctor (which to me feels pretty implausible purely going off your own role, I especially agreed with that paragraph), where would you look then? I'm someone who is really interested in considering the gamestate which is why I don't ever bother with rereads. I like figuring out the agenda of scum and what it means based on overall feelStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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So everyone was just sorta like 'yup Hayker is scum'? Your case clarified My slot, Gamma and You all voted for Hayker. I could read Gamma and provide my own thoughts about him, I consider myself pretty good at reading his alignment based on the games we've playedIn post 839, Dannflor wrote:Well, no one else has really tried to reposition themselves greatly this day phase,Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Tonalcheck and I'd disagree with you on Gamma, lot of his responses to me are pretty flat and posts like #615 in regards to his own attention span feels attributed to a guilty conscience where he knows he'd post more as town but instead is sorta listless. That's the definition I would ascribe to based on his content purely from ISOStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Post more btw not necessarily being postcount, rather the content of his posts. His trajectory this game so far seems like an intentional means to not upset anyone, where-in his responses are very measured. I tend to backspace a lot more as scum because I'm really careful about the way I explain my thought process as I don't want to leave any holes for townies to pick up on. In that sense, I feel the restraint is intentional.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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The instance of Alchemist's death that you described to me is the most telling of my own thoughts, where it seems like in #662 is a stopgap instance and what follows is basically him trying to forcibly convince himself of a lim he knows is wrong. It's not that saying 'hm' or thinking about things makes you scum, it is everything surrounding that empty thought. Just a lot of mundane responses and mostly attuned to what is going around him instead of going out and seeking answers. I understand that you think Zito especially is sorta in that realm of thinking-too-much-but-not-really-productive, but for me Zito has either committed himself to a ludicrous degree (almost like inverse-bussing, where someone is SO convinced someone is town and ends up being scum), or they're going to eat a huge amount of crow.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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What they're doing IMO is either
1) Aware that (Hayker) is bound to die and trying to accredit themselves in ways that will make them look townier
2) Ignoring what's going on and trying to play fool as town will likely be more cautious about those who are inhibiting 1) behavior
I think that your thought on scum being on this wagon regardless likely remains true from a wagonomics standpoint, but it's not me and I think I townread lunar so things just sorta started to line up in my head. I think both realities can exist that I explained, and right now this wagon doesn't seem too heavily coordinated. If hayker is scum he probably just claimed an appealing role, and which mates he slightly touched base with probably centralized their opinions around his claim either by separate play or involvement. Gamma is the one I think is involved if that makes senseStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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If you interpret them as vague there's probably a good amount of truth into that. Very often I will just let my mind wander and let my fingers do the work. Meaning, I just say shit and see how people interpret my own thoughts. You seem to disagree which in turn is a reaction that I consider in the broader view of the game. I'd like to see what Gamma himself thinks about my takes regardlessStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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OK, I'm willing to respond now
I think we can both agree that the degree in which Mafia is played (especially for town) is to make convincing arguments. I try to accentuate behavior and paint a picture of what I see. To be honest, I am very lazy and choose a roundabout way of getting people to see my arguments. Flat could be replaced with "Stale", "Boring", "Inoffensive", etc. As for what response I typically felt were flat? My statements made towards Gamma were at a cursory glance, so after I saw a few of his posts that's the overall conclusion I've made. In terms of..what wouldn't be flat? I think someone who seems more engaged/willing to take risks. I would be lying if my read on Gamma right now was not a bit confbiased in terms of what I figure is more in line with his towngame, there being (engaged/willing to take risks).In post 858, Papa Zito wrote:I don't really understand this point. What are "flat" vs "non-flat" (?) responses? Can you give examples of which particular responses you consider "flat" and why?
Why do you attribute 615 to a "guilty conscience" vs ... I dunno, anything else?
When you're scum you have to be more careful about the things you say. I guess in some sense you'd be right re:confontation/arguing. Do you think that scum enjoy getting into arguments? Or that they enjoy being a point of contention? My personal take on this is really when it suits them. Or they're forced into it. I don't think many scum actually enjoy being the center of attention therefore even otuside of Gamma I consider the people who are always sorta in the conversation but not enough to ever be about it.In post 858, Papa Zito wrote:I don't really understand this point either. Are you saying you think he hasn't been confrontational enough? Or that he hasn't argued with enough people? Can you explain what you mean here?
No I think they're different, townies have to figure out the game. Scum only has to pretend to. In that regard, he doesn't need to go out and seek answers, he can just pretend to have them.In post 858, Papa Zito wrote:I think this is a restatement of the 2nd argument unless I'm mistaken.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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I'm no hyperposter so let me know if my stream-of-consciousness thoughts become too overbearing thanks
Looking back and seeing that this day hasn't gone on that far and Hayker got himself run up pretty quick. I almost thought Hayker was slowly built into a case but literally he hasn't even made a single post this phase I think?Stop-
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And this is not just 'well he's the leading wagon so I should vote him', based on a few things you seemed pretty convinced that Alchemist was scum. That's what I mean by grievances. When I'm wrong it makes me re-assess my thoughts, but instead your most recent post is basically saying that we should hammer the guy
Don't get it twisted, I think Hayker is scummy but now that I realized this day actually hasn't been going on that long I hesitate to think why you believe it's a good time to just call it hereStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Like, explain what this means?In post 878, Hayker wrote:3) Force an easy town lynch on the scummy looking town doctor.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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I'm not trying to provoke you hayker but I'd really like if you moved onto different things. I wasn't even in this game until now and I know that your PZ read is the only substantial take you've made. Dannflor believes you could be defending him as a mate and he is being subservient to you (and your claim) because of this.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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So the activity is telling to you in terms of what's going on? I could possibly see that, but right now I think the only people who have truly engaged are me, you, PZ, and maybe Kazyan. Scum aren't usually prompted into activity, it's all based on aligned self-interest. You were mentioning in your small thoughtrant that you worry Gamma's activity would be telling, but I don't know if scum are just cornered. It doesn't feel that simple to me, rather I believe they're just waiting for their next best move. This is why I mentioned the game I was in (Innocent Things). I was scum there and I found myself having nothing to hide behind. Both me, FL and even nopoint were the most active posters on D1. The activity in that regard is telling to me that scum is not exactly directing the game, rather just finding comfortable ways to force content. We may have posted a lot but I don't feel like we necessarily controlled who was living or dying, rather our MO was mostly what I described.In post 892, Dannflor wrote:Honestly, unless I'm all sorts of wrong about this game and like the NPOM/unwnd slot is scum it feels like mafia have given up. That's part of why I was so quick to jump to the Zito as scum theory simply because he was one of the few attempting to do *something* this day phase. But maybe the simpler solution is just that scum don't want to touch this day phase with a ten foot pole.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Gamma you're giving me Mini Normal vibes lolIn post 896, Gamma Emerald wrote:hello
I'm still thinking we should push Elements or unwnd, scum 100% was sheeping the IC I feelStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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I mean
I agreed with PZ(?) when he mentioned that you being IC is kinda screwing with things. If you're on the wrong track then I imagine they'd just let you drive yourself into madness. It makes me wonder however on the end, because there should be only be about 3 scum in this game, and I know for a fact there are more than 3 people who are simply not posting or contributingStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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The one you were scum in if that helpsIn post 909, Gamma Emerald wrote:
did you mean to include a number there?In post 899, unwnd wrote:
Gamma you're giving me Mini Normal vibes lolIn post 896, Gamma Emerald wrote:hello
I'm still thinking we should push Elements or unwnd, scum 100% was sheeping the IC I feelStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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I don't understand where you see this, could you explain a bit further?In post 907, Lunar Martian wrote:Gamma/Hayker/Papa. GG.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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I feel like I should be taking the whole '3rd agenda' as some kind of joke lolIn post 911, 2ndchosen1 wrote:unwnd
While I like the consideration of the scum agenda I see no reason why you didn't cover Hayker's 3rd potential agenda, however unlikely it may be.
Is gamma's response or lack thereof in line with what you read on them?
It's telling in ways that feed into my confbias and nothing elseStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Yes from where I'm sittingIn post 937, Gamma Emerald wrote:
There’s only one recently where I wasIn post 910, unwnd wrote:
The one you were scum in if that helpsIn post 909, Gamma Emerald wrote:
did you mean to include a number there?In post 899, unwnd wrote:
Gamma you're giving me Mini Normal vibes lolIn post 896, Gamma Emerald wrote:hello
I'm still thinking we should push Elements or unwnd, scum 100% was sheeping the IC I feel
Does it look like that one?
Just wondering where your head is atStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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..Is this typically the notion you would take as town? I never took you as someone who plays his cards close to his chestIn post 957, Gamma Emerald wrote:you to actually explain your read without force-feeding you any linesStop-
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I'll try to condense my thoughts without completely borrowing from things already said
Why are you being so hesitant in your words Gamma. Even now it feels like you're waiting for me to take the first gesture. Which is funny to me, because I already did that not even two or three pages back. If you don't want to read it: Fine. It just seems like you took everything I said and went 'well it's just meta' when that isn't even close to the truth. I'd scumread your behavior independently of (you), but it just so happens that (you) are in this game, and I would expect a lot more.This is all the meta I would have on (you).This is a bit vague so I'll be more direct. I don't think your efforts thus far are scumhunting. I think that you're just biding your time with the thread, and to me it looks like you're struggling to even fake content at this point. As for why I feel that way? It's your attitude and the way you've seemingly brought yourself to conclusions. A lot of your responses to the thread read to me like someone who doesn't wanna put the effort in as scum, so to compensate they try not to make disputable claims. Everything you've said and done isn't out the realm of town, but I don't see where it's taking you and I'm starting to think it's fake for that reason alone.Stop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Ah try not to join so many games then? I can slightly empathize but I can't do it for the sake of this thread.In post 966, Gamma Emerald wrote:I'm being reserved because I'm that way across p much all my games since I can't put in the exact effort I want to put in for all of them, so I'm pulling my punches in all of them. I'll put in a concerted effort to sort the entire game if I get a good chance, but I don't want to push myself into focusing on X game when I have others I feel might deserve my time more.
This game is becoming a bit flat which leaves me slightly uneasyStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Are you sure that you can't see that here merely because I've suggested your head?In post 996, Gamma Emerald wrote:
This is what I’m doing to try and form reads right now, at least for the second post. I don’t want to start at square one just yet so right now I’m probing stuff that sticks out from recent posting in order to see how people respond, which will make my reads develop.In post 988, Dannflor wrote:Gamma, this is the exact type of posting I do as scum. I understand you are strapped for time, but you need to be spending your precious time in thread stating your own reads, defending stances, pushing people. Right now, you're simply making vague stances and asking other people to fill in the gaps. That's not towny, that's scum trying to create the illusion of content.
Focus less on asking other people what their opinions are when you need to be looking at the thread and generating content yourself, at least if you're town and want to win the game.
Also I really really feel 2ndchosen1 is town but I also think he's one of the easier miselim targets in the game so be aware of that
Since thread is gonna close soon I wanna state unwnd is a bit of a pocket SR because I don’t like how he presented the meta point against me and he is low key obvtown in his town games and I can’t see that hereStop-
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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unwnd Jack of All Trades
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Let's just
Not focus on meta. #965 is my condensed thoughts on you. I do not believe meta to be a complete tell, rather something to consider. What I dislike of you is your own hesitance in your words. Even now, you only have a 'Pocket SR" on me instead of a full scumread. If I'm scum, then I want you to give it your all instead of this half-assed nonsense you've been doing so far. If I have to provoke you, then so be it.Stop-
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Looks kinda like thisIn post 1018, Dannflor wrote:unwnd what are your non-gamma reads
{Dannflor, unwnd}
{Lunar, 2ndchosen1, PZ}
{Elements, NSG, Kazyan}
{Gamma, Hayker}Stop-
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The most confident reads in the upper brackets are Lunar and PZ. Most confident lower is a bit more trifling, but I still think Gamma is scum and I'm pretty sure Hayker gave up. That would only leave one hypothetical partner to figure out. I just got done with a game against Lunar so I can verify their behavior for you. It's vastly different, and he was really scummy (I literally made a too-scummy-to-be-scum call on them) and this game looks nothing like that. The meta here is valid because it's a new player who hasn't established nuance in their behavior. 2ndchosen1 looks fine, though I do admit that's more of a sheep. I think PZ's hesitance and consideration for the lim is striking, and the more I sit with it the more I think that Hayker wasn't trying to distance his mate by accrediting a townread on him, rather was just forcing content. PZ's response to all of this to me doesn't feel like they're trying to make an audience around their interaction, which is definitely something scum are more prone to do.
The {Elements, NSG, Kazyan} area to me is the one I need to sort the most. They're lower not because they are verifiable scum, rather I have less reason to townread them compared to everyone else. Elements is placed here because I'm biased towards myself and so far I feel like I'm being given shitty reasons to be considered scum. It slightly tilts me, but not enough to where I'd start thinking 'everyone who is against is my enemy' way. I just wonder for (Elements) why they're choosing to hold onto NPOM and not interact with me when I've proven that I'm more than willing. I also just feel a sense of...complacency in their posts. A lot of confbias but it doesn't feel particularly townie to me, because I don't know how they got there. NSG needs more content and I think Kazyan was surprisingly OK with Hayker's death, and if I were tinfoiling a slot It'd be him, because his responses seemed the most prepared.Stop-
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Yeah I'm tinfoiling him a good amount too, even if our reasons aren't fully similarIn post 1023, northsidegal wrote:oh, kazyan has sunk down a bit more to null for me since 940. i think a lot of my read was based on the idea that he actually was hectic, and he made a comment that seemed really hectic-town-indicative to me in 215, the "reactions more important than the act itself" point. given that he (as i now believe / know) isn't and given some tonally kind of scummy posts like 632 he's droppedStop-
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He literally self-voted and gave up, I kinda think his mates are just lying low after the fact to avoid spewIn post 1038, northsidegal wrote:oh yeah and in case i haven't said anything on the subject yet which i'm not sure if i have i think we're green light on hayker dying todayStop-
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Reading elements+Hayker right nowIn post 258, Elements wrote:
*theyIn post 249, Hayker wrote:I'm very comfortable with my vote on elements right now. He pushed someone elses vote, opportunistically hopped on the lunar wagon, OMGUS voted me. I feel the pressure is where it is needed for now.
Can you explain your last two votes elements?
The LM vote was the same reasoning as asking for Ben to vote NPOM
The vote on you was an "I ignore your opinion of not liking naked votes"
There's a strong interaction between the two early, but then it mostly peters out. Hayker retains a decent amount of skepticism towards them but Elements doesn't seem to comply all too well, and actually switches over to Gamma despite what you highlighted DannStop-
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