mini normal 2226; who won

[Datisi]

fear not, i am here!

so, as i was skimming the game earlier, flubber's 26 immediately struck me as awful. i thought it was obvious that seanzie disliked something alchemist wrote (and isn't saying what it is) rather than voting him purely because he "posted more". so i was pleasantly surprised to see umlaut's 29. i don't find the rest of flubber's posts to be better either.

VOTE: flubber

@flubber, what do you find ridiculous about 34?

another person that i kind of dislike right now is alchemist. something feels very scummy-nitpicky about his 39/41/43. like, it feels wrong that alch ia shading umlaut for not pressing seanzie while going for flubber just because umlaut didn't find coyness townie. umlaut found flubber's push to be suspicious so he went there, why would town!umlaut automatically have to be evaluating the pushee as well?

reading 36 and 42 was a mindmeld. by the laws of the mindmeld theory, i must now locktown umlaut, right? realistically, probably a bit too early, but i do have pretty townie pings from him so far.

[Datisi]

Datisi (2): Aristeia 9,

Lukewarm 10

VOTE: Gamma

@mod, i have questions

oops,

[Datisi]

you're free to elaborate.

[Datisi]

that is bad because...?

[Datisi]

saying i fully agree with two posts umlaut made, making a joke about a recent game that some of us here played in, reaffirming that i do townread umlaut = "dancing around" = ??? bad ???

t3, are you *trying* to take flubber's place at the top of my shitlist?

[Datisi]

while it's far from the first time i get some suspicion my way for my tone of speaking, i do kind of expect better from someone who's already played a few games with me.

[Datisi]

if flubber was reacting to something that wasn't rvs, then flubber's own post can't have been rvs either, right? so why are you suspecting umlaut for taking flubber's "rvs" interaction too seriously?

[Datisi]

if flubber was reacting to something that wasn't rvs, then flubber's own post can't have been rvs either, right? so why are you suspecting umlaut for taking flubber's "rvs" interaction too seriously?

VOTE: t3

[Datisi]

hate to be annoying, but... why are you voting umlaut then? >_>

[Datisi]

if that were almost anyone else, i'd start screaming for their head because they're obviously making it up as they go, but gut tells me this is not *completely* out of t3's townrange.

[Datisi]

i mean, that's not my issue here... my issue is that you said umlaut is scummy for "taking [flubber's] rvs interaction seriously" (57), and then later on saying that "flubber's reacting to something that wasn't totally rvs" (72) which makes it sound like you did actually think that flubber's post/interaction was not rvs, so.

and after i asked about it, you only then voted umlaut, saying you'd answered that already, then realizing you didn't, answering onl after being prodded about it again, and *then* unvoting umlaut after being prodded about it too? like uh. doesn't feel like a natural thought process at all.

[Datisi]

@flubber, what do you find ridiculous about 34?

[Datisi]

how is that wrong? at the time of him saying that his vote became serious, alchemist was making small talk and asking people how they were? like, it seems like making friends to me... (don't think he's scum for it, but i can see the thought process as plausible.)

[Datisi]

hm. i took 34 to mean that only a few of alch's posts prior to seanzie declaring the vote serious were "making friends"-y, but i see now what you mean.

[Datisi]

why?

[Datisi]

do you scumread flubber?

[Datisi]

then you can say something about that?

[Datisi]

i actually got some townie pings from his posting upon his return. my mind completely skipped over 12 at first, so upon that elaboration, i can see town!flubber going mad at someone "lying" about their push.

opening his iso, don't think he looks *great* exactly, talking only about seanzie and nothing else isn't a great look, which is why i'm fine with him being on y-1 to see what happens and i'm not losing my mind over a possible quickhammer.

[Datisi]

like how much "this is why the other posters don't ping me" do u want before it turns into thread clog

you've explained why other people don't ping you or what your read on someone (not named seanzie or umlaut) is exactly... zero times. i know absolutely nothing about your thoughts other than "seanzie lied" and "umlaut is chainsawing", and even with those, i'm really skepitcal you can genuinely lockscum someone that fast with that reasoning. the aggression, confidence, and anti-survivalism will only get you so far.

[Datisi]

i was planning on asking aristeia about her reads before alchemist beat me to it, and i would be lying if i said i'm not slightly worried that her praise of me is meant to get me to like her when i shouldn't. what posts of mine gave you that idea of me and why?

also, i don't have a *lot* of experience with t3, but my impression is that scum!him is everything but careful - can you elaborate on what you mean there?

[Datisi]

i just wish to talk to you. you're aware i might be a conspirator against this town, which of my actions give you the feeling that i'm not?

[Datisi]

hmm. aristeia, you're not wrong. i can be okay with that explanation for now. don't let me stop you from voting.

t3, i kinda... don't care for self-meta from the person i suspect? at least not such broad and vague self-meta. are you happy with your vote on flubber? why/why not?

[Datisi]

gamma, use your words please

[Datisi]

was there a point in posting 209 then?

[Datisi]

i currently have about 8 scumleans and 3/4ths of a townread

can whoever is town here start acting like it

[Datisi]

If anything I'm mildly paranoid about being buddied but that's not a behavior I would really expect from scum!Datisi toward me anyway (though my experience with scum!Datisi is limited so I'm really just guessing there).

ok i'm gonna ask

why are you guessing that there?

[Datisi]

VOTE: chaosomega

i cannot wait for us to yeet flubber today and he flips scum and then i look like an idiot tomorrow. anyway, 227 gives me bad vibes, kinda feels like scum nitpicking any miniscule thing just so they can stay on-wagon.

re flubber's 222 - i feel like there's been at least something that pinged me wrong on minimum half the slots here, that's why i said it. i could iso everyone and compile that, but... i don't feel like that's gonna be useful for me or anyone else.

flubber, do you have any townreads?

[Datisi]

Datisis

datsi

[Datisi]

aristeia, could you talk about why you voted chaosomega? i read his latest post, and something feels off about it, but i can't put my finger on why i feel that way. the only conscious idea i have is that it's odd he went for lukewarm and ignored my push on him, but... eh.

[Datisi]

VOTE: gamma

why is aristeia town?

[Datisi]

because i realized i couldn't remember a single solvey thing you've done this game

and the 10 second skim through your iso didn't disprove that

[Datisi]

assuming both of those are supposed to be town - one-shot vigilante, by far.

that is an odd question.

[Datisi]

uh, what?
(1) how does that post's content feel "grounded"?
(2) why do you think that i was one of those accounts?
(3) how does me allegedly being in that game connect to your read here?

[Datisi]

(1) i understood what you were trying to say, i don't get how you came to that conclusion. when the flowery language is stripped away, all 195 really says is "datisi town because tone". which uh, idk if i would call that "pretty grounded in the context of the game".

(2) lol. funnily enough, i was in gnr5, but on a different alt. i'm not gun nor rose from that game.

(3) as far as i remember, one of gun/rose was town the other scum, and they were both playing the game using flowery language and roleplaying. i don't think roleplaying is ai, but i'm not trying to read aristeia by it anyway, so.

[Datisi]

VOTE: meg

[Datisi]

if i've ever seen a "scum pretending to be present and solving the game" post before, it's 284

[Datisi]

do you agree with my hot take there, warmluke?

[Datisi]

i wonder if he knows what's going on becuse it was explained on the following page

[Datisi]

i definitely want to hear what he thinks is going on

(and will respond to you in a bit gamma)

[Datisi]

wukelarm

are you trying to

pocket me

[Datisi]

come on luke you can put a bit more effort into it

[Datisi]

ok i'm done bullshitting

luke, i do want you to elaborate on that townread bc i just searched "dat" in your iso and all i saw was mysterious "mindmeld" and i know you're supposed to be smart n stuff so like

[Datisi]

alright fine

as a whole, i don't think those are *great* reasons to townread me, but from someone who is encountering me as a player for the first time, i think it's a definitely plausible way of thinking

i don't think scum!luke would randomly make the "wow datisi is my top town" comment because i don't think i hold too much influence right now and not like luke is in any danger (other than being voted by omega, and like. meh.)

like it feels more likely to be town reacting to something they liked in the moment rather than scum seeing an opening and going for it

i feel like i saw something from luke earlier that made me go "hmm?" in a bad way, but i cannot remember rn what it was so maybe it wasn't that important, i'll give this game a closer look tomorrow, i don't feel like efforting tonight

[Datisi]

3 minutes after i posted that i thought "but what if i AM getting pocketed tho?" and ugh life is pain

[Datisi]

1) I think there’s a bit of subtle meaning in the post that you’re just not gonna get, which IMO is fine, I don’t think you’re SRing Aristeia anyway. Do you at least get where I’m coming from though?

3) yeah Rose was the town one, Gun was scum. I’d probably have to deep-dove that game to get more detailed but iirc there were differences in how each of them played that made Rose evidently town and Gun evidently scum. I think it boiled down to how much it looked like each one was trying to look useful.

maybe you're right and i don't get it. i can vaguely see where you're coming from, but meh, would be lying if i said i totally get it

and i don't think that's necessary, i was barely reading that game at the time so i don't remember much of it, and i am unsure the situations are directly comparable anyway, mostly bc idk who those people are

[Datisi]

titus doesn't really have a chance of being limmed today anyway so why would I move it?

this feels... backwards?

[Datisi]

oh come on, my scumgame is not *that* bad!!

also show your research >_>

[Datisi]

it was pretty obvious that t3 was trying to get out of having to say something about mech and i'm hmm at alchemist trying to force the issue >_>

i still wanna see the wall on my meta, though.

[Datisi]

hm. i feel like it's a bad idea to try to meta me by (1) looking at only one scumgame, and (2) looking at only a scumgame where i had a quasi post restriction for 85% of the game.

however, the effort seems townie, and the conclusions check out. i still insist that whether i wall or not is a result of my mood and not my alignment, but i *think* this checks out with those games? they're all linked on my wiki if anyone wants to see for themselves.

though skimming through my iso of c9++, i kinda feel like i was quoting people and making wallposts there too... still shelfing this as Town For Effort for now because idk why scum!t3 does this. i feel like i've heard somewhere that scum!t3 likes to do townreads on townies but this feels a bit unnecessary. idk.

[Datisi]

though for the next two-three weeks i will be super aware of every single post i make in every game i play, so thanks i guess

[Datisi]

I would like to point out that the initial push on me is due to factor's outside of the game itself. (I.e. the distance from me to the game due to V/LA)

i would like to point out that this is not the case. it's not just about you being v/la and not following the game closely, my issue is that your post seemed like textbook scum who isn't active making a post that seems vaguely solvey but it's actually ~air~. i had this tell come up in a recent town game of mine, i can find the links later if needed, it is still fresh in my mind which is why i jumped when i saw the post

also i'm not sure i like this when the case on you isn't even just that one post but /shrug, i'll focus energy elsewhere in the meantime

[Datisi]

Datisti Gamma T3 Lukewarm Flubber all being town.

The names I have listed are my locktowns.

uh. usually i would comment on the another iteration of my name, but this is more interesting - how do you have flubber as *locktown*? i'd understand being townie on him, but locktown?

[Datisi]

if titus flips red this game, we're yeeting flubber, no questions asked. and i'm thinking of jumping the ship here and voting there now anyway. titus here gives me a huge vibe of "scum realizing the wagon on buddy isn't going away on its own, jumping into action to try to save them", especially as i know she loves trying to protect her partners.

my only issue is that i want to get a better read on meg first, and i know i won't be able to do that for a bit here... sad.

[Datisi]

uhhhh why are we wagoning a v/la d1

because the v/la is scummy and they're off v/la tomorrow, why would we not wagon them lol?

[Datisi]

for the record, my 427 doesn't mean "being on v/la is scummy", it means "the person on v/la happens to be scummy, unrelated to their v/la", in case someone decides to try to shitpush me for that bad wording

[Datisi]

@mod

i believe chaos is voting lukewarm

mod: true!

[Datisi]

hi mathblade!!

Still reading tomorrow but those of you who consider yourself “champions” (however you define it) of the wagon please summarize your cases. Then I can use that in my catch-up tomorrow.

as the first vote on meg, i will answer this

i voted them because of post 284. they were v/la, they didn't post pretty much anything, and then they popped in with that post. it gave me the vibe of low-activity scum doing the ~bare minimum~ to appear townie, but not actually solving much of anything, because the post doesn't really say much of anything of value. i've had this "tell" come up in two recent games (can link if necessary) where there was a town player unable to post / low-posting, and they gave zero shits in appearing townie, and there was a scum player low-posting, and they gave an honest effort into doing to minimum to appear townie (i talked about this in 287 and 383).

now, i am fully aware it's possible that a townie vaguely skimmed the game and decided to throw something out, but. eh. to me, the act of "throwing something out after skimming" feels way more likely to come from scum who's more interested in keeping up the appearances of solving / not having the town turn on them while they're not posting, rather than town who's low on time and decided to throw *something* out to help, even though they admit to not being able to read closely. like, makes it feel like they're more concerned with looking like they're solving rather than actually correctly solving.

*however*, all of this may go in the garbage because flubber has been pretty scummy the whole game, and i was willing to write him off as loltownie, especially considering the wagon on him has been the one constant of this game so far. and then titus jumped in from the void to scream how flubber is locktown because she mindmelded with him on this one thing on like page 2 (420). this uh, made me paranoia a titus/flubber team (421), so would love your input there

(also while i'm here, something about flubber's "lol why we wagoning the v/la" post (425) rings very *very* wrong to me, but i can't consciously decide what it is, so idk.)

[Datisi]

My intent is more that independent of T3’s alignment he shouldn’t do it. That’s what policy means. It’s a vote that is policy until I catch up and I want to be able to do so.

What do you make of your chaos wagon and reactions or lack thereof?

I still prefer the Chaos flip, and feel like all of Dats, Ari, and Titus have voiced a scum read there, and honestly unsure why they all decided to jump to Meg over Chaos. But, I think that Meg also is looking like a scum flip, so not the end of the world I guess.

honestly idk. something about his response made me not want to vote him, and other slots currently have my attention, but i also wouldn't be *terribly* surprised if he flipped red.

[Datisi]

Maybe scum don’t have a PT and have a discord instead? I have played a smaller game where this was the case. Reading that in the OP made me think what if no scum have a PT at all and made me want to join to see if this is the case.

for the record, don't think either of these things are within the realm or normalcy.

[Datisi]

normal rules are also about the mechanics, and keeping the game standard. "btw scum have no pt lol" is a slap in the face to both of those, but we can ask.

@mod, is it possible that the main mafia team has no access to what the game would consider a pt?

sorry, made an edit rather than quote >_<

[Datisi]

@meg, when you're back

Flubber: doesn’t provide a lot of reads and doesn’t appear to be actively contributing, scumread

what's your experience in mafia, and why are you not voting the person you apparently scumread?

[Datisi]

aristeia, why are you making people have expectations of me, it makes me nervous >_>

[Datisi]

lol tris

[Datisi]

1) idk if that’s even the right term tbh, what I’m saying is despite being more poetic-sounding, the contents of 195 feel just as game-relevant as anything else. To put it in a poetic perspective, we write our thoughts in the dirt, while Aristeia writes hers in the clouds.
2) because you and Menalque played in EISAL 2 on a hydra that was titled “a Gun and a Rose”, and you both weren’t in G&R V on your mains
3) Because I would figure you’d see where I’m coming from better.

@Datisi
@Gamma

Can either of you tell me what kind of game this was so I can go to that forum or ideally provide a link? I feel I am losing some context here.

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=81945

everything is still a lie 2, though i think the important part of that post was the fact that mena and i have hydra called "a gun and a rose", and in GnR5 there were two accounts called "gun" and "rose". and they weren't us

[Datisi]

why is titus town?

[Datisi]

all i saw earlier was "titus has had bad reads so they can be tvt", i hadn't seen Actual Reasons for her to be town, but to be fair i have been skimming a lot too so

[Datisi]

he was dismissive yeah, but i think he brought up some valid points. most of your reads feel like they need some heavy elaboration.

[Datisi]

Wish I had more time today but something came up. Here goes my first batch of analysis. I probably will refrain from analysing Mathblade/seanzie slot for now. Hopefully, I can get the rest done today.

Alchemist: lots of posts, presses people for their reasonings, very reactionary, null read
Aristeia: posts little content, but still shows they are following the game closely in 184, strong townread
ChaosOmega: keeps posts long, fairly thoroughly analyses conversations, doesn’t actively push his reads out, weak townread
Datisi: tends to latch onto one thing about a player that they find suspicious and stick by it for long stretches, townread,
Flubber: doesn’t provide a lot of reads and doesn’t appear to be actively contributing, scumread
Gamma: reasonings seem to be understandable and seem to be thinking out their actions, townread

Mathblade: new sub in so chalk it up to a null read so far
Lukewarm: likes to move around their vote, clash with Chaos appears to be Town on town Imo, mainly coming from a disparity in approach to votes, slight townread
T3: is T3, slight townread
Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread
Tris: extremely scummy, lim on sight
Umlaut: mostly talks surrounding flubber, and not adding input on the rest of the game, posts intermittently but not often. Scumread
Vulture: on 2 occasions (me and flubber) added to a large wagon without providing thoughts of said wagon, very few reads given until very recently, Scumread

Honestly it feels like vulture hasn’t received enough pressure after their putting flubber at E-1. Especially after Chaos ended up doing the same before, with a much less meaningful vote.

VOTE: Vulture

okay then

- why is alchemist null? you listed things that seem like it should be ai (pressing for reasoning/being reactionary)? if they're not ai, why even bother to list them?
- why is "following the game closely" worthy of a *strong townread*? and what about her readslist made you so sure that it's genuine?
- why am i a townread for latching onto things for a long amount of time?
- what makes you believe that luke/omega is t/t?
- do you have exp with t3? why are they "slight townread"?

i also had a "provide examples" for pretty much every single one of your reads, but that got repetitive very quickly...

[Datisi]

math, i'm struggling forming a read on you too - could you give me a tl;dr of your views on the game/players? you jumped around a lot during your catchup, would be nice to have that in one post. a tierlist with maybe half a sentence for everyone would be grand

[Datisi]

no worries, i'm about to go pass out anyway.

[Datisi]

hm. meg's thoughts do seem more elaborate than what i was expecting. it does make me hesitant a bit, i'll give it some more thought once i get some sleep.

[Datisi]

Datisi => I don't think you post 512 as scum here. This shows an attentiveness to vote counts that you'd naturally have to keep up as scum.

there is a very specific reason i posted that, i was gonna wait until flubber reacted but he got replaced and prism did react so

there is a tell that i call "the iconeum tell" bc he taught it to me, the idea is that if you have two ~scummy wagons, and the two wagonees are playing around each other awkwardly, and/or are avoiding each other like the plague, they're more likely to be scum/scum wagons. (i used this in a recent c9++)

flubber's "lol why are we wagoning the v/la" struck me as possibly that, because obviously scum!flubber doesn't wanna die, but also doesn't wanna vote his buddy counterwagon. but i had to wait for meg. and once meg was like "flubber is scummy", *no vote*, and after saying they like having a vote on someone at all times? yeah it did no good things to that read

flubber dud end up voting meg, but ehhh his vote was... awkward at best. and prism entering with screaming about how dare we wagon meg, and immediately trying to discredit me based on ~tone~

will properly read the rest later, i skimmed a bit and this from math caught my eye so wanted to elaborate

[Datisi]

i will note that prism disliked my other post more than the tone, before someone starts yelling at me.

[Datisi]

okay so - re meg's 601

do you think alchemist is doing that in a scummy or townie way? why?

the explanation for aristeia feels off. you say how aristeia doesn't want to steer conversation in any given direction. then you note how scum *can* steer convos in a game, but then they would appear to have an agenda, and aristeia doesn't seem to have an agenda so she's town - but you just said that she's not steering the conversation? where would you expect that "agenda" to show up then?

*why* does my play come across as townie? like, what's making you sure that i'm town genuinely running around as opposed to scum looking to push through misyeets? especially considering you're currently my main target?

the luke/omega fight seems like a playstyle clash when you describe it that way, sure. but scum has a playstyle as well. so again, why is this t/t?

[Datisi]

Want to vote Datisi but will holdoff until catchup. Instinctually this page is enough for a dayvig between 600's weird tone w/ MathBlade & the sequence quoted in 601. Latter is more striking, comes off as playing hard with intent to shove through as opposed to legitimate questioning.

what about my tone is weird? and what is wrong with my questioning? or rather a better question would be, have you read the things i was questioning?

[Datisi]

My reason for defending the slot is very straightforward. The post asking to talk/discuss reads more before hammering is something I have a hard time seeing from newer scum despite the incentive existing.

you should maybe look at the slot's prior post before judging that one, because it was mostly getting grilled for providing poor/surface-level analysis, and it was obvious that people wanted "more proper analysis" from them - why is the asking for more time unlikely to come from a newbie? (and besides, i don't think meg is a newbie anyway, they said they played elsewhere and seem to be well versed in reasonings to read someone a certain way or the lingo or whatever)

[Datisi]

I do not appreciate the two posts from Datisi/Aristia calling me scum for dueling wagon speculative associatives. I will hold my more acerbic comments.

does this mean you don't like it or that you find it scummy? i can understand the first one, regardless of your/meg's alignment really, but i'm gonna need some very good justification if you're trying to say you find it scummy.

[Datisi]

re 691:

i can see my tone seeming like that, but that is just How I Talk and if this game turns into me having to dig ten billion meta examples of me Talking Like That i am gonna scream. though i'm not sure how you remembering a more paranoid datisi makes you ease up on that read? and sorry, what question was i avoiding there?

[Datisi]

here's a vague hot take so that i don't forget - if meg/prism turn out to both be town, umlaut's scum equity skyrockets. i used to read him as "him being lazy is probably townie because i've modded for scum!him and he went at it kinda hard", but then there was a game where he was a lazy scumfuck because the town was being stupid and his teammates were carrying. and he said it himself that scum!him doesn't effort too much if the circumstances don't call for it. so uh, keep this in mind i guess.

[Datisi]

prism, did you miss my 694 or am i blind?

[Datisi]

No one really championed the Flubber wagon so it’s pretty dead to me.

why is this an indication that the wagon is on a townie?

[Datisi]

also, uh, you talk about "good scum wouldn't do that", and maybe (maybe!) that's true, but i haven't seen proof that either flubber or meg are exceptionally good at scum (no offense, i'm shit at scum too). so i don't see how that invalidates what i said?

and besides, literally all i said was "if the two leading wagons aren't voting each other, they're more likely to both be scum", why is this suddenly someting that "decent scum" doesn't do?

[Datisi]

This means any scum voter doesn’t want credit for a bus.

this is a horrible assumption that scum only ever votes a partner with the intent of driving them into the ground, and that's not the case. there are *definitely* cases where scum sees a wagon building on their partner, jumps on (so that if the wagon goes through, they get some cred), but when it comes to vocally supporting the wagon, they shut the fuck up because they're silently praying the wagon goes away.

and re no townies being confident enough in their read... i don't see how that is relevant to the wagonee's alignment?

[Datisi]

Question was about Meg, which I wanted you to rehash to me specifically even though at this point I've kind of shown my hand.

er, i still don't understand what it is that you were asking? unless it was "why is meg being wagoned" which i feel like it has been explained, but my own specific reasons have been laid out in the first two paragraphs of 463

[Datisi]

also, uh, you talk about "good scum wouldn't do that", and maybe (maybe!) that's true, but i haven't seen proof that either flubber or meg are exceptionally good at scum (no offense, i'm shit at scum too). so i don't see how that invalidates what i said?

and besides, literally all i said was "if the two leading wagons aren't voting each other, they're more likely to both be scum", why is this suddenly someting that "decent scum" doesn't do?

My point is that there’s no difference between bad scum and bad town for that tell.
You specifically mentioned the wagons acting awkwardly towards each other as part of the tell and not speaking about each other as well. That is not “all you said”. For something to be a “scum tell” it has to be accurate a good chunk of the time. At best that’s a “you should look here and see if that’s the case”. When something doesn’t differentiate between newb scum vs newb town, you’ve found a newbie, congrats?

Having been scum a lot, I tend to ask myself if a player is scum why would they do something. What benefit do they get long term? Flubber iirc is good scum (I don’t have time to find a game sorry) so I don’t see a naked vote on Meg as something Flubber does.

I guess just call it “player who gets scum all the time intuition”. I know it’s probably not satisfying but it’s the best I got as I will have to get ready for work soon.

ye, but the crux of it is "not voting each other" (that is what i mean by saying "avoiding each other like the plague", if i need to back this up i will because i use that phrasing to mean "avoiding one another's wagon" constantly)

the rest (being awkward, not talking to eachother) can happen but doesn't necessarily, and it's non-specific reading of s/s interactions anyway. i added it because flubber *did* vote meg so you could easily go "but flubber did vote meg therefore u r rong" when that doesn't invalidate the fact that he tried really hard not to vote meg.

[Datisi]

But Ari has been contributing their own reads and thoughts into the game while making no effort to control the flow of the conversation at all. I don't think scum does that as it is almost impossible to distinguish it coming from a scum or a town.

not sure i fully get this part. like, why is that unlikely to come from scum because of that reason?

If you are scum you would know I'd flip green and how that would look so I don't think you'd go like that at a town on day 1.

ahaha, yeah, about that...

though this is more me-specific meta that i know you don't have, so i guess i can buy this as a plausible thought process?

[Datisi]

well well well, would you look at that

i say that umlaut is scummy if these two people are town because he's being lazy

umlaut appears from the void

pedit: prism is flubber

[Datisi]

anytime bb

[Datisi]

[Datisi]

[Datisi]

I am considering moving my vote to meg, which, I

know

.

I was the one saying Chaos>Meg, and now people are moving my way, but yeah.

x.x

what's your opinion on the newer stuff that meg's posted?

[Datisi]

@luke: i agree that meg's readslist is kinda. eh, bad. though i'm more interested in whether you have any opinion on meg's posting after 610?

oh man do i love reading multiple pages of sophie and star wars, really makes me want to try to meaningfully contribute to this game

@titus, why is vulture's vote there scummy?
@aristeia, why is alchemist scum?

and insert a complaint about how omega will probably get replaced

aight cool

[Datisi]

oh, something pings me as weird about lukewarm calling meg scummy earlier, but only voting them now. even though they made no new posts from back then to now. i dunno if it's related to the vulture rising wagon, it might be, who knows. moreso a note for me for later.

[Datisi]

@luke, i'm not worried about anything specific. i just noticed that and thought it was weird, because you had been talking about thinking meg is scummy for a while, even talking about them becoming your preferred vote, but you didn't vote them. one hour after the vulture wagon starts growing, and wth no new posts from meg/omega, you're suddenly voting meg? it's odd timing. yeah, luke/vulture scumbuddies + town!meg is what i thought of as the most likely cause of the vote switch, but it's not something i can figure out right now. as i said, more of a reminder for myself for later days when some of you have flipped.

mind answering my q from 908?

[Datisi]

...t3, what was 921 even supposed to say?

[Datisi]

It's opportunistic. He has one or two posts before riding the Flubber wave. Once it gets going as a wagon, he puts E minus 1 super early. He has no realistic comment on anyone else.

i mean... how is that opportunistic is my question? i definitely dislike early y-1's but i dislike them for different reasons (opens up room for ballsy scum to hammer early - nothing to do with the person doing the y-1 vote). what does scum!vulture except there to happen? that someone will just run with the vote and decide to hammer flubber on page <10?

don't get me wrong, i don't think this vote makes vulture town, i'm just saying i don't think it's scum!indicative.

[Datisi]

And even following that, it has taken questions for Meg to expound on things. And the way they have expounded, feels more like a conversation in abstraction then how they feel about each player they are talking about. Like, why each action could be read the way they read them in the read lists, as opposed to what they think about each player.

you're right, sorry i read this paragraph and then promptly deleted it from my brain for some reason

i think "conversation in abstraction" puts into words what i've been vaguely feeling about most of meg's posts but was struggling to express.

[Datisi]

even talking about them becoming your preferred vote, but you didn't vote them.

Also, about this. moment they were my prefered vote, I voted them.

I started with them being scummy, but chaos was my preferred vote.

Then, it got to the point where it was about equal.

Then, I saw the vulture counter wagon pop up from no where, and making sure one of my top scum reads was a viable wagon was enough to push my vote over

these posts, to me, made it seem like your preferred vote was meg rather than omega, but were holding back for ??? reasons:

Spoiler:

Just like, where I am at.

I still think that both Meg and Chaos are scummy, but I my preference for chaos is falling away.

Meg has gained some associatives recently, more in how other people (and not just prism) have interacted with the slot then just their recent read list, and the lack of meg associaives was the main thing pushing me towards flipping chaos first.

I am considering moving my vote to meg, which, I

know

.

I was the one saying Chaos>Meg, and now people are moving my way, but yeah.

x.x

however, i will say that that could've been a slight exaggeration of your wish to vote meg in my mind, so.

[Datisi]

@aristeia, why is alchemist scum?

[Datisi]

Well at least it makes me a little less consensus obvtown.

i feel like i missed something, because those are definitely not the words i would've used to describe titus in this game.

[Datisi]

working in abstracts makes you much harder to read. it's easy to point out *what* a player is doing and explain why it could come from town or it could come from scum because theory. and it's also a common scum tactic because it brings very little to the table but it looks like ~doing something~.

[Datisi]

meg, can you give updated concrete thoughts on vulture and the wagon on them?

[Datisi]

okay, you're then free to answer my question to titus - why is that vote scummy? and what do you make of vulture's recent posting? and in your own words.

[Datisi]

@Datisi - I already answered you.

i am aware, i was asking meg, not you.

[Datisi]

yeah, i don't exactly buy it. it feels more like meg is looking for things they can attack you for rather that organically coming to that read. which /shrug, i've seen it happen with confbiased town sometimes, but it doesn't give me a sense of security that meg is genuinely hunting here.

[Datisi]

Sort of want to put my vote on Meg by PoE (I think Vulture and Chaos have both looked towny to me at various points) but I'd be lying if I said I had reasoning for that

can you read meg iso and say what you think? there have been PLENTY points on why meg could be scum.

[Datisi]

That last point in particular is such an egregious misread that I don’t believe anyone acting with any good faith would think I was confused or interpret it as such.

yeah, i read that post, and i was wondering if meg was being serious.

vulture, your current take on me?

[Datisi]

titus, what's your solve again?

[Datisi]

have you explained why meg is town? link me if you have, possible i've forgotten.

[Datisi]

I would compromise on Meg to avoid a no elimination but I really think Meg's town.

have you explained why meg is town? link me if you have, possible i've forgotten.

[Datisi]

@Meg - The self-awareness and no effort to survive read townie to me.

are you telling me that the constant requests for more time and for them to prove themself by dishing out analysis "for after they flip" is supposed to be "no effort to survive"?

[Datisi]

@titus, because scum would never bluff about "being resigned to their own death" and constantly dish out the "woe is me, i will die, but i hope the rest of you get some use out of my analysis once i flip" in the hopes that whatever they put out makes their voters change their mind and vote someone else? like, what makes you think that this is supposed to be genuine?

[Datisi]

Don't you find it odd that it's virtually an all town wagon on Meg

have i missed 4 innocent child announcements somewhere?

also, if you think that the wagon on meg is currently mostly town, nobody is defending them, but they're not going through... how does that point to "meg is town, and scum doesn't wanna get their hands dirty (even though two of them are currently ~possible counterwagons)" as opposed to "meg is scum, and scum is stalling and praying that the wagon doesn't end up happening"?

[Datisi]

or hell, howcan you tell this situation is not "all three current wagons are on town, and scum is doing nothing and waiting around to see what the town ends up doing"?

pedit: this is still @titus

[Datisi]

anyone else get the feeling that alch went from actively solving the game to dropping off, doing a post or two a day, and not trying to advance the game at all?

[Datisi]

hm. with prism actually voting meg, i am this close -><- to calling for a flashwagon on alch

[Datisi]

meg/prism are somewhat more likely to be the same alignment than rand + i really don't think that vote makes sense as a bus + i've been thinking for a while now how alchemist has progressively gotten worse and worse = flashwagon anyone?

i'm... not trying to tilt you. i'm throwing ideas out as i get them.

[Datisi]

anyway, i'm not in the mood so i will try not to open this game until tomorrow morning, more likely afternoon. try to not kill anyone until i'm back. or do, i kinda don't care right now.

[Datisi]

VOTE: umlaut

[Datisi]

Datisi, did anything happen to you last night? Don't answer what.

as far as i am aware, no.

[Datisi]

VOTE: Umlaut

chaos, could you talk about this vote?

[Datisi]

umlaut is scum, and the fact that there hasn't been an intent on him yet is very sad

anyway. i don't think i've ever seen titus use gifs before, so page 49 is weird to me. not scummy, just weird. lol.

1224 is bad. you'd think townlaut would, after a 4 day night, knowing he's done jack shit and will be suspected, at least have something to enter the game with? instead he's nitpicking something math said? nah

Mostly cried and had paranoid thoughts about Datisi being a scumbag who's playing with my heart.

why? i hate being the one to say "why me", but you've given no indication that you thought i was scummy, other than "i'm throwing out all my reads" i guess, and even then that doesn't explain why you jump directly onto the possibility of me being scum, as opposed to. anyone else.

i'm getting townie pings on mathblade from the was he entered this dayphase and is trying to brute force sort out what is happening. anyone with more experience with him wanna tell me if this is likely to come from scum!him?

[Datisi]

re 1250:

i cannot explain how much this post pains me, because that is literally the exact opposite of how i approach partners in a scumgame - if i jump onto their wagon, i'm staying on it until either they flip, or i'm damn sure there's enough momentum elsewhere for them to not flip. but, in order to not turn this into a self meta argument, because i know how much the public loves those...

270 is a wild time to move away from chaos. If dats was worried about chaos enough to vote him in 230, why would he move the moment actual pressure started building up on the slot?

because i don't care about the "actual pressure" on the slot. unless i know a person and i know their specific town vs scum reactions to getting a lot of pressure (and i've never played with chaos before), other people pressuring a scumread with me doesn't help me. especially that early in the game, my votes do their own thing.

And his stated reason for moving to gamma? Because gamma called ari town in 252...

i have no clue where you're getting this, because this is a flat out lie. my stated reason for voting gamma is 272, which is "i couldn't remember a single solvey thing [he's] done this game". because at that point, he hadn't done anything solvey.

Prior to this vote, I cannot find a place where dats called gamma scummy. I also cannot find a place where he calls ari scumm, dats was not calling ari scummy. So a "not explicitly scum read slot" votes another "nonexplicitly scum read slot" and that is enough to abandon the chaos wagon? It kind of looks like Dats put a distance vote, and then was surprised when it turned into a real wagon, and was just looking for a reason to change course.

i did not call gamma scummy, because he wasn't "being" scummy, like nothing that he's done was scummy - it was the things he hadn't done. and when he posted 267-269, i realized that i've seen gamma post in the game before, but that i couldn't remember anything that he'd done. *that* is what prompted my vote.

again, no clue where you're getting the "non-scumread voted another non-scumread, and that is why dats unvoted" bullshit when i explicitly said two posts later why i was voting gamma, don't put words in my mouth.

and the "datisi tried to distance, but two other people jumped on the wagon, so datisi panicked because of a 3-vote wagon on page 11 and abandoned ship of the distance attepmt"? lmfao.

[Datisi]

The fact that he opened up today voting for Umlaut when there were already 2 votes on chaos further feeds in to the worry that dats and chaos are partners

it really doesn't. scumtisi with scumega there votes omega, then waits until inevitably some townie shits their pants and goes "but gaiz the wagon is too fast!! which means there's scum on it!! which means that omega must be town!!21!!" because that is what always happens with early day low content wagons.

[Datisi]

am i insane for thinking there is something Very Wrong about the fact that luke spent a lot of time yesterday pushing omega, then once he realized that's not happening, he was suddenly a firm believer in meg flipping red, brute forced the wagon through, then the person whose literally only strong read was "datisi is locktown" is dead, and *then* luke is back on omega while making a convoluted case on why i'm a partner when that case is half made up of literal lies and empty assumptions?

[Datisi]

An obvtown is someone who won't be eliminate but still could be scum. For instance, Datisi fits in that boat.

uh, titus, are you sure about that? >_>

why did you (seemingly) drop the vulture scumread? and why are you voting umlaut now?

[Datisi]

why? i hate being the one to say "why me", but you've given no indication that you thought i was scummy, other than "i'm throwing out all my reads" i guess, and even then that doesn't explain why you jump directly onto the possibility of me being scum, as opposed to. anyone else.

[snip]

Datisi first post D2 SS4
Datisi first post D2 Micro 988
Datisi first post D2 Mini Normal 2226

here are a few others of my first posts d2: (1) (2) (3) (4)

i was town in all those games. having a short intro to day two is nai for me. and i feel like it's a biiit disingenuous to be making an argument based on 2 prior games, and one of those being a towngame that had a much more exciting day 1 than this one, and in which i was on the front of a scum wagon, so i was naturally more interested in the game than here with the meg wagon (yes i know it ended up being that scum were playing like jesters and i was arguably the biggest anti-town person in doing that, but i didn't know that at the time).

Because it's really weird for me to experience no paranoia/doubt from you when we just killed a town player on D1 and I was one of the more vocal people killing Meg.

uh. i literally asked you to explain your sudden read on me which made no sense to me. i did not ask you that because i'm fearing for my own life.

[Datisi]

To those of you who are that sure Umlaut is scum, why not go look back and see what was scummy D1?

this is difficult, because it's not about what he *was* doing, it's about what he *wasn't* doing. meg flipped town, and arguably the biggest counter was vulture. i have a gut feeling that vulture is townie. it's not extremely strong but it's there. in that case, umlaut's scum equity goes WAY up, because he's being a lazy fuck, and that very much fits with scum!him not having to effort if he doesn't have to. (it also points at there very likely being a deepwolf.)

like, i cannot point at anything that umlaut has done day one and say "this is scum because xyz" because he hasn't. but with the wagon's that happened and the way they played out, i think there's value in running him up to claim at least and forcing content out of him that way.

[Datisi]

it was pretty obvious that t3 was trying to get out of having to say something about mech and i'm hmm at alchemist trying to force the issue >_>

i still wanna see the wall on my meta, though.

T3 clearly wasn’t saying anything mech related here. I think if Dat is scum then Alch is probably town.

someone saying things like "something is going on", "i will tell you later", "ask me later", "i will say after some flips" is almost always code for "this is something about town power roles that is anti-town to talk about right now". which is mech. lol.

VOTE: gamma

why is aristeia town?

Explain this vote please. I think this is probably the most damning point in the readwall. You seem to be okay with Gamma voting Umlaut now.

can you please read things first before asking questions like this? i explained the vote literal 2 posts later (272), and then i explained again in my response to lukewarm's "case".

and it was literally over 1000 posts ago. my read on him changed in the meantime. how is this relevant?

I see assumptions but what lies are present?

again. read my response to his case...

he said my stated reason for moving my vote from omega to gamma was because "gamma called ari town in 252". this never happened, my reason for voting gamma was because gamma was doing jack shit nothing in the game despite consistently posting (272).

then however he said that my reason for moving my vote was ""not explicitly scum read slot" [ari] votes another "nonexplicitly scum read slot" [gamma] and that is enough to abandon the chaos wagon", which again, had nothing to do with why i moved my vote.

[Datisi]

Also Luke got cold feet about Chaos after people started joining that wagon and it became more viable, so “realizing it wasn’t gonna happen” is an incorrect assessment.

and yeah, this is correct. for some reason i thought he jumped off when the wagon was dead. should probably check first next time.

[Datisi]

i don't particularly care - it still feels like shade, especially as aristeia is currently having similar thoughts, and by the time omega does flip town (if he does), you can come up with any other bullshit to push me if you need.

i have no idea, i was hoping he'd have more contributions today for me to read. before you ask, no, i'm not interested in voting him right now.

[Datisi]

my fos on you boils down to "i fucking hate the way you're trying to shade me". i'm not implying anything about your day one because right now i don't even remember all your stances on day one. if you're talking about your sudden shift into screaming that meg had to die right then and there... i again don't really care because i don't think i have to have a full out plan figured out for what scum!luke was doing at any time in the game in order to say that your shade on me is bad.

if you have anything specific to tell me about why i should think you're town here in that gamestate, feel free to point it out.

[Datisi]

we're flipping umlaut first, but sure.

[Datisi]

Datisi + Umlaut

chaos/umlaut being s/s would be the boring answer, but i could see it happening and i wouldn't be *that* surprised. them being t/t? don't see it.

[Datisi]

yeah, i know. but my argument isn't "umlaut inactive therefore umalut scum". it's "umlaut inactive, the rest of the gamestate/flips points at it being very likely that umlaut would be scum (based on what i know about him), therefore umlaut scum".

[Datisi]

you can (re)read what i've already written if you want, i'm not wasting time trying to convince you that you're scum.

[Datisi]

n_m would've been the hero we needed

[Datisi]

@Datisi >> Did a quick skim here of where you pushed Umlaut for inactivity and Umlaut was town. There seems to be a difference in tone here. This post also makes me nervous Umlaut wants to die.

cool. for what it's worth, i could definitely see a world where umlaut is getting bussed here, i'm no way saying that i think his wagon is 100% pure. omega's contributions are still weak, and gamma's... fidgetiness around his wagon feels weird. (not saying i necessarily scumread these people, just saying that i can see them being partnered.) titus and aristeia feel town to me, though titus more so, i'm just not sure scum!aristeia would be playing around me like she is.

[Datisi]

I don’t think you follow me here. I am wondering if how sure you and others are if you/those more sure are scum.

sorry, i don't follow. could you please rephrase?

[Datisi]

just because i have stopped writing anything out about it in-thread doesn't mean i've "stopped hunting for his partners", i'm observing what is happening. but i still think he's scum, and i don't see the point of spending too much time on scumlaut's partners if we're flipping him today - either we're right that he's red, in which case we've armed scum with info (who we suspect as his buddies) for no reason, or umlaut's green and then we've wasted time on a hypothetical that doesn't help us at all.

and uh, in that game you linked, they were "too sure" when voting town. not sure i see the point of being "too sure" on a buddy wagon.

[Datisi]

this is probably the first time i hear someone accusing someone of white-knighting for them while they are on their wagon.

[Datisi]

hm. titus, you that sure math is town?

[Datisi]

luke, how may i bribe you for an umlaut vote?

[Datisi]

i do this ari is more likely than not, but it's because of her reaction to something i saw in thread, which i don't think is worth bringing up today

pedit: lmfao i love getting pedited by a proper case when my post is "idk she prob town lol"

[Datisi]

i do think* ari is more likely town* than not

i cannot type apparently

[Datisi]

the only person that needs a prod rn is omega...

math, if you intend on voting umlaut, what's the point in making people "hunt around"? isn't that just giving away info?

[Datisi]

ari, do you directly suspect anyone other than alchemist? other than me and/or umlaut, i guess.

[Datisi]

mmm, that i can see.

[Datisi]

knock yourself out, math. i wouldn't mind getting some more omega content before eod anyway.

[Datisi]

hi gamma, do you have thoughts on anyone not named aristeia?

[Datisi]

Eh I didn’t like him kinda acting like I’d only really been focusing on Aristeia but it’s forgivable

but... you have? after unvoting umlaut, you made one comment about n_m probably being town, everything else you posted was about aristeia.

don't think that i'm calling you scum for it because i am not, i was just asking >_>

[Datisi]

raw post count is a horrible way to judge "how much" someone is actually posting. besides, i've seen scum!umlaut and town!umlaut under pressure. town!umlaut tends to *try* put content out to change people's minds. he's completely shut down here.

@gamma, how sure are you luke is town here (so much so you want to let him refocus) as opposed to scum pushing a townie?

[Datisi]

Now for some speculation. With the info that only 3 people have access to a PT, I think there is a higher than normal chance of a traitor being in the game.

actually no, the odds of a traitor, who doesn't have access to a pt, drop to zero. if there are three scum, two with a pt, where's the third player with it? can't be a townie, since they would immediately know what their partner is scum.

i think it would use you to rethink a little bit, i get you think umlaut is scum, but both his partners being that obvious in trying to save him would be a bit... unlikely, at least?

@math, i'll get to your q later, about to leave the house right now.

[Datisi]

yeah, but the issue is - 2 main mafia are 2 people witb a pt, town neighbour is the 3rd. because they know there can only be 3 people with a pt, they automatically know their neighbour has to be scum.

that's fair. is there anyone other than gamma/luke who you don't townread/scumread, associates aside?

pedit: i got distracted

maybe we should ask the mod if a neighbourized would count as having a pt, but i'm like 95% sure i read on the wiki they don't start with one as per the normal rules but also i'm tired right now so

also hi koba do you have any thoughts on the game

[Datisi]

...any alignment thoughts on anyone?

[Datisi]

huh. well okay then.

[Datisi]

But I already stated when we started down the setup spec road that the statement in the OP only went for the start of the game.

i am aware of that, i was discussing whether a neighbourizer starts in a pt at the start of the game or not. i thought they wouldn't, but i guess i was wrong.

[Datisi]

viewtopic.php?p=12817491&user_select%5B ... #p12817491

Can you explain the difference Datisi?

The only difference I find is with you than Umlaut here, but I am also horrible at meta reads so I am hoping you can go “Math you dumb dumb this is why” in a super nice way

ok so i skimmed the linked iso and purely from it, i cannot. umlaut is perfectly able to be low-impact / useless early as either alignment, and any difference in his d1 here and d1 in the linked game that i point out will be more my own confbias than anything. (d2+ in that game is not applicable because early d2 there he claimed a somewhat-confirmed roleblock, so obvious different play afterwards.)

if we were to talk about his response to pressure, which is kinda what is cementing him being scum here imo, that game is a bad comparison too because he was never in any danger. (i think i was the only non-rvs vote on him throughout the whole game.) i feel like i have seen town!umlaut be under pressure and actually Produce Content to try to get the wagon off of him, but for the life of me i can't find a Proper example.

viewtopic.php?p=12716478&user_select%5B ... #p12716478

this comes to mind as an example of what i'm talking about wrt scum!umlaut, lylo where we were aligning to vote umlaut, and what he did was make a post here and there to not get replaced, make a weak vote that he wasn't actually trying to push at all, and mostly just shut the fucc up.

compared to this: viewtopic.php?t=84074&f=52&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

(open 794, dual iso of town!umlaut with the mod so you can follow the wagons of the game and his posting amount)

not a Perfect example since, while he was a leading then competing wagon for a good amount of d1, he was never quite that close to getting yeeted, but i think it still illustrates that town!umlaut actually Tries.

again compared to this game, it feels like here he's planking and purposefully not saying anything. like, seriousy. he voted ari because of "white knighting" (and also shaded math for it too) even though ari is literally voting for him (and he'd already acknowledged that vote earlier too). he got called out for it, did he actually give any thought to his vote? or explain why he thought ari was white-knighting him? he did not, he just went ahead to argue with you (math) and say "well but these math posts ~feel~ like white knighting" like seriously why is he still breathing.

i am tired and i have a headache so if you have any more q's please leave them below and i will get to them within the next 3-5 business days. there have been a few things i wanted to recheck, mostly give all of omega/alchemist/lukewarm a reread, because i did like what i skimmed from omega today, but that is sure as hell not happening tonight.

[Datisi]

Datisi is my lover and we have access to a PT together but I don't know if he is Mafia or town.

Spoiler:

[Datisi]

hey friends, been a bit of a rough night for me (like, irl), my planned reread went to shit and i'm not sure where to go now. also i will probably take a day off posting or at least post a bit less.

gut tells me chaos is townie, but i have nothing to back that up with other than ~feels~. in any case,

i urge y'all to not vote there anymore because that is y-2

and you know.

:side-eye: at alch for not announcing the y-2 with n_m in game.

[Datisi]

no shit lol.

[Datisi]

i thought the "umlaut, i was townreading you all of d1, now i'm voting you on d2" was very clear. which is also why i had a slight panic reaction this morning when i saw you were at an unannounced y-2.

[Datisi]

I still think gamma a baddie

can you tldr/link me this?

[Datisi]

what's the premise a again?

[Datisi]

right, you never said it out loud, i thought you maybe have.

i had a dream a week ago that i was reading this game and that i found a connection between math and umlaut, someone convince me that my dreams are lying to me.

[Datisi]

ah yeah, trying to sus you up. by weakly claiming that you're defending him when you weren't, at the time it was obvious that he was going to die. umlaut is more than able to ~sus~ partners, so forgive me for not taking that as clearing.

[Datisi]

right. it's a bit out there theory, but. umlaut went no effort shortly after you repped in. i know scumlaut is capable of efforting when he needs to and being a lazy fuck when he can get away with it.

obviously i know you're gonna say "coincidence" which is why i'm hoping others will knock some sense into me.

[Datisi]

But this argument is in direct contrast to what you said yesterday so like ??? *confused*

sorry, what is this apparently contrasting?

[Datisi]

oh, i see. there's no contradiction there.

when i say "scum!umalut went no effort when town!umlaut at least tries", i meant that in the "being under pressure" sense, this is applicable only during d2. when it was getting clear that the game wants him dead, he went limp and shut up. if he were town there, he would've been trying to convince us not to kill him. that's why i linked that game where he was under pressure as town, he wasn't shutting up.

when i say that i'm concerned about umlaut going no effort on d1, i say that because *at that time of d1*, he wasn't under pressure, nobody was looking in his direction, so he could "afford" to be low effort. obviously my main concern is that the timeline of him going "some effort" into "low-to-no effort" overlaps with you repping in, and i know scum!his effort levels are sometimes negatively correlated with how well his buddies are doing...

also, getting yeeted can very much be "getting away with it" if we now fuck up and lose.

[Datisi]

Also im waiting in the juror selection room rn AMA

why is gamma scum :3

[Datisi]

if you're telling me that omega is scum, then i'm really not seeing it, no.

anyway, we haven't even discussed the role of the flipped scum! mafia neighbour! does the other neighbour wanna come out? you will be locktown for being neighbours with flipped scum :3

[Datisi]

yeah, y'all are welcome for trying to keep the obvious power role with a guilty alive, why is the omega wagon a thing again?

[Datisi]

if omega town, who's scum?

[Datisi]

titus, can you unvote for a bit? it feels like an uncomfortable atmosphere right now.

[Datisi]

titus, i'm not scum with anyone :/

at first i voted umlaut because i wanted to see where it would go, but when i realized that it's a probable guilty in play, i tried to hammer that point home. i realized math probably figured it out, because the "lol datisi is scummier if umlaut scum" was too moonlogic. i think i tried to wink at him about it at some point, but i can't find it in my iso skim right now.

however, i have a hunch scum thought i was the one with the guilty too, which again makes me thonk on mathblade.

[Datisi]

also the fact that both luke and alch have returned, probably acknowledged that omega is softing a guilty, and haven't unvoted is like, hm.

pedit @ alch: around the same time. umlaut was v/la for a bit i think, but he never picked it up again. and yeah, i think there was a clear drop in his effort sometime early-mid d1, because at first he was at least trying to sound townie.

[Datisi]

also why do you think scum might have thought you had a guilty Dats?

i tried to play up my "guys it's totally me who has the guilty" as best as i could, and at least two people bought it it seems, probably more. if i managed to trick at least one scumfuck, that's enough. and considering that after umlaut redflip i'm never getting yeeted regardless, i was the most logical shot last night.

[Datisi]

alch, do you really think scum!omega plays the way he did around scum!umlaut and now locks himself in a pr claim?

[Datisi]

like, actively softing a guilty, today? I thought the deal was chaos got a guilty on umlaut yday

sorry, was* softing a guilty yesterday

it's been a very long night for me

[Datisi]

like, actively softing a guilty, today? I thought the deal was chaos got a guilty on umlaut yday

We look for scum on Umlaut on Umlaut besides Datisi Gamma Math and Chaos. The concensus was there was a guilty. I bet scum played like it.

that leaves only you, aristeia and not_mafia.

bussing is the obvious play. i wouldn't be terribly surprised if scum stayed off, then today went "well it was obvious it was a guilty, if i had been scum i would've been bussing" and like, someone like alch is sure as fuck not playing like town right now

[Datisi]

alch, do you really think scum!omega plays the way he did around scum!umlaut and now locks himself in a pr claim?

alch give me a plausible reason why scum!omega softs a guilty on a partner the way he did

i don't give a shit about "most people are saying he has to get flipped", scum will have to shoot him tonight lmao

[Datisi]

They were happy to let Umlaut die

there's a difference in "happy to let umlaut die" and "bussing him into the ground by pretending to have a guilty"...

[Datisi]

VOTE: alchemist

part of me wants to force omega to claim so we can move on from this nonsense and flip actual scum, but that's probably what they want and i doubt they'll stop. whoever is town out of luke/alch/math, start acting like it.

@titus, are you still sure math is town here?

i'm supposed to be resting but this game is a thing i guess.

[Datisi]

Umlaut, I was town reading you all D1 and then naked voted you to start D2, do you find that suspicious at all?

this, coupled with the naked lolvote at the start, looked like a pr soft to me

[Datisi]

for once i am vibing with koba and that scares me lmfao

[Datisi]

why is alch town

why is luke town

please don't tell me it's just because they were off the scum wagon on d2

[Datisi]

not sure there's a point in asking for his result form last night when he said it's not useful and it's giving free info to scum.

if there was a chance that stops the lol tunnels i'd say to do it, but i feel like someone like alchemist is gonna scream to yeet him no matter what he claims so /shrug

[Datisi]

don't see how that happens with him claiming, but probably don't answer this.

[Datisi]

Your theory is scum have to shoot Chaos.

If your theory is right they have to shoot Chaos regardless of what Chaos claims right?

no. my theory is chaos is a town power role. if he's something like a town cop, then they have to shoot him. if he's something like a 1-shot tracker, then they most likely don't have to shoot him because the town will do the job for them, or at least keep being distracted by him. by keeping scum ~in the dark~, they have to gamble.

he said his results aren't useful. which means we don't actually get anything extra to act upon, we just let scum know where they have to fire tonight.

[Datisi]

then he de facto becomes innocent child depending upon what he claims.

i have a feeling there is exactly zero (0) percent chance the game starts treating him as an innocent child no matter what he claims. unless he actually claims innocent child and ythan confirms him as town.

[Datisi]

I just don’t think Chaos is town. But if he is then we can fix things today versus a mis elim today.

like. you already know that he's claiming to be some sorta role that got a guilty on umlaut on night 1, and that he has nothing useful to offer us on d3. wow, amazing. what difference does him claiming something specific do?

[Datisi]

unless you're proposing massclaim and trying to break the setup that way, which no.

[Datisi]

Furthermore if Chaos does die then those “useless” results which could damn scum get buried.

could. maybe could. this is where we trust that town!omega has enough knowledge of his own role and normal games as a whole to know whether his n2 results "could" damn someone or not and whether they're worth sharing.

[Datisi]

like, i'm thinking back to a game where i was scum where a buddy of mine was a neighbourizer, and one scummy townie at one point went "i can confirm he neighbourized, i'm not saying anything else". we proceeded to shit a brick because we thought the townie was a tracker, or even worse a watcher, and we killed a yeetbaity lurking townie when there were much bigger headaches dayplay-wise. and then the fuck flipped as a useless voyeur.

don't give scum info for free.

[Datisi]

Furthermore if Chaos does die then those “useless” results which could damn scum get buried.

could. maybe could. this is where we trust that town!omega has enough knowledge of his own role and normal games as a whole to know whether his n2 results "could" damn someone or not and whether they're worth sharing.

You’re missing my point.

There should be no decision.

If I am dying that night I out my results no matter what.

you're missing mine. it's not guaranteed he dies, hell, maybe the act itself of him claiming will cause scum to not kill him. like, trust him that town!him knows what's he doing with his role.

[Datisi]

If I fullclaim, what are scum adjusting to during the day Math? Me not fullclaiming is allowing scum to make a mistake by not having complete information.

If you full claim and are unelimmable then scum have to push somewhere else. People fly off your wagon like it’s allergies.

i really *really* don't buy there's a claim out there that would make you change your mind from "he's scum" into "he's unyeetable". i think you're scum desperate for breathing room.

[Datisi]

and make sure to address why a scum chaos would vote their partner on a whim of a case from *datisi* if what was said was correct

omega voted umlaut first.

and i'm not trying to case anyone here.

[Datisi]

and make sure to address why a scum chaos would vote their partner on a whim of a case from *datisi* if what was said was correct

omega voted umlaut first.

and i'm not trying to case anyone here.

Im saying according to others descriptions on what happened d2 was that you cased umlaut but chaos was first vote

1094 made it sound like you were saying chaos was following me. yeah, i cased umlaut later on. i did feel a bit nervous on if i misread the situation and am pushing a guilty that doesn't exist, but once umlaut started planking, i figured it's a safe bet to go ahead and bury him.

[Datisi]

Datisti

who?

my current pool is two out of math/alch/luke/gamma. emphasis on current, because i don't feel like i have a perfect grasp on this game still, and i wouldn't be completely floored if there was scum in ari/koba/n_m. don't ask me when am i gonna re-read/re-eval/re-whatever, i don't know.

[Datisi]

if you could convince me on gamma!town, that would be appreciated.