mini normal 2226; who won

[MathBlade]

Hi! I am playing civ with a friend but will catch up tomorrow!

[MathBlade]

yooo I thought you were retired what's up dude

I still lurk on occasion or replace in to friends games/interesting setups.

[MathBlade]

I would like to point out that the initial push on me is due to factor's outside of the game itself. (I.e. the distance from me to the game due to V/LA)

i would like to point out that this is not the case. it's not just about you being v/la and not following the game closely, my issue is that your post seemed like textbook scum who isn't active making a post that seems vaguely solvey but it's actually ~air~. i had this tell come up in a recent town game of mine, i can find the links later if needed, it is still fresh in my mind which is why i jumped when i saw the post

also i'm not sure i like this when the case on you isn't even just that one post but /shrug, i'll focus energy elsewhere in the meantime

My point is that this general scumminess of the posts isn't due to me being scum but rather that kind of post is from how I have been able to follow the game due to my V/LA. I recognize its not really possble to distinguish between the two.
Just try to focus on my posts from here on forward.

Also looking back at my general uneasiness with Alch it probably stems from similarities with my own scumplay, though I recognize it also is a viable playstyle as town.
I will be providing a thorough analysis of the game tomorrow so far in a bit.

Welcome to the game mathblade! Tis I, the day 1 mislim.

This seems stilted not sure why.

[MathBlade]

I don't see any reason why not to E-1 Flubber.

VOTE: T3

Policy til I am caught up.

Threatening to E-1 when a replacement comes in and denying town a chance to read me is scummy AF

[MathBlade]

So, I was just like checking to see if Math has had any games with T3, or if I was going to have to explain that T3 is T3.

Found one, was looking to see how T3 T3 was that game -- he was very T3 btw

Spoiler:

Murder panicking at A50 analysis.

Catching up.
Mcs response to A50 gut pinged me the same way and I think Titus gets townpoints for this. VOTE: MURDERCATpedit: Hammer?

I believe it is. he was E-3 in the last VC, then Toog, slimer and you

Fuck

I accidentally lolhammered a scumreadin my first game.. now this

@T3: I don't see how you "accidentally" hammered when you had a P-edit suggesting you did see that MC was @E-1

My reaction was like: Hammer? [SUBMIT]
2 seconds later
WAIT THAT WAS HAMMER

So, like, yeah Mathblade has seen T3 do things like this.

But, also, I saw Toog's response to the situation, and found it quite funny

Spoiler:

Do you have a game where you did townie things and got town read for them, T3?

In the game you linked I was scum and did a skim just enough to seem Townie so as to get footing wet.

Soon as T3 claimed informed role cop he was getting shot n2 almost certainly. I reactioned a few times to confirm T3 rolecop then bam dead. I legit did not care what T3 was gonna say because he was gonna be dead.

In this one I am town and do not put up with shit like that. I want a chance to read and find scum.

[MathBlade]

Informed of a role cop*

[MathBlade]

i did go on to get the pagetop after that tho. anyway; here's a topless vote count

VC 1.07

Flubbernugget (5):

Umlaut 29, ChaosOmega 71, T3 113, Vulture 152, Alchemist21 371

MegAzumarill (4):

Datisi 286, Aristeia 327, Gamma Emerald 364, Titus 390

Seanzie (1):

Flubbernugget 26

ChaosOmega (1):

Lukewarm 259

Alchemist21 (1):

Seanzie 12

Titus (1):

MegAzumarill 142

not voting:

with 13 alive it takes 7 to destroy.

deadline:

(expired on 2021-08-08 18:55:00)

and, MegAzumarill is v/la till Sunaday

Looks like as of the latest VC there’s two wagons
One on Flubber and one on Meg.

Still reading tomorrow but those of you who consider yourself “champions” (however you define it) of the wagon please summarize your cases. Then I can use that in my catch-up tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

My intent is more that independent of T3’s alignment he shouldn’t do it. That’s what policy means. It’s a vote that is policy until I catch up and I want to be able to do so.

What do you make of your chaos wagon and reactions or lack thereof?

[MathBlade]

hi mathblade!!

Still reading tomorrow but those of you who consider yourself “champions” (however you define it) of the wagon please summarize your cases. Then I can use that in my catch-up tomorrow.

as the first vote on meg, i will answer this

i voted them because of post 284. they were v/la, they didn't post pretty much anything, and then they popped in with that post. it gave me the vibe of low-activity scum doing the ~bare minimum~ to appear townie, but not actually solving much of anything, because the post doesn't really say much of anything of value. i've had this "tell" come up in two recent games (can link if necessary) where there was a town player unable to post / low-posting, and they gave zero shits in appearing townie, and there was a scum player low-posting, and they gave an honest effort into doing to minimum to appear townie (i talked about this in 287 and 383).

now, i am fully aware it's possible that a townie vaguely skimmed the game and decided to throw something out, but. eh. to me, the act of "throwing something out after skimming" feels way more likely to come from scum who's more interested in keeping up the appearances of solving / not having the town turn on them while they're not posting, rather than town who's low on time and decided to throw *something* out to help, even though they admit to not being able to read closely. like, makes it feel like they're more concerned with looking like they're solving rather than actually correctly solving.

*however*, all of this may go in the garbage because flubber has been pretty scummy the whole game, and i was willing to write him off as loltownie, especially considering the wagon on him has been the one constant of this game so far. and then titus jumped in from the void to scream how flubber is locktown because she mindmelded with him on this one thing on like page 2 (420). this uh, made me paranoia a titus/flubber team (421), so would love your input there

(also while i'm here, something about flubber's "lol why we wagoning the v/la" post (425) rings very *very* wrong to me, but i can't consciously decide what it is, so idk.)

Based on the post of votes in the VC it looks like a majority of votes on Flubber are RVS. By asking who is championing the wagon I can see if that theory is right or not. In other words who is willing to stake that their read is that important. (There’s also a corollary to this that follows but I don’t want to say it yet else it ruins the future expectations.)

Assuming what you say is true about Titus defending Flubber (haven’t read yet) let’s look at the four options:
As to which it is I would need to read to be sure but I don’t think SvS because Titus is competent scum when she is and I don’t think she would turbo link herself to a buddy without a good strategic reason.
Flubber alignment v Titus alignment because phone posting
SvS >> covered already
SvT >> Possible. Titus’s town game from what I have seen recently has been crap. I don’t think she goes and defends Flubber without something spooking her.
TvS >> Titus would be trying to score some major Townie points here and goad people into miselimming Flubber.
TvT >> This would suggest that Flubber is being dogpiled by scum. I’d push exclusively on the wagon

I can’t answer which until I get there but it’s unlikely SvS like you’re thinking unless Flubber is some god tier scum power role.

[MathBlade]

My intent is more that independent of T3’s alignment he shouldn’t do it. That’s what policy means. It’s a vote that is policy until I catch up and I want to be able to do so.

What do you make of your chaos wagon and reactions or lack thereof?

I still prefer the Chaos flip, and feel like all of Dats, Ari, and Titus have voiced a scum read there, and honestly unsure why they all decided to jump to Meg over Chaos. But, I think that Meg also is looking like a scum flip, so not the end of the world I guess.

I would move to Chaos too, I just have a preference for Flubber.

Why?

[MathBlade]

What changed?

You posted more.

Why is posting bad?

VOTE: seanzie

This is a really garbage reason for a push

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Agreed. I wish I could ask my prior self posted more than where. At this point it’s RVS, people get pushed for memes and typos and lolz.

[MathBlade]

waiting for my hero.




Alchemist do you think Seanzie is a Mafia?

No. He feels more like low-hanging fruit to me and I think both he and I were interested in seeing who else would push him for voting me. It was notable to me after the first 2 votes that the people voting Seanzie were people who know me, but 2 could just be a coincidence and I wanted to see if there would be a pattern and if anyone would try to pocket me along the way. I wanted to see how it played out a bit more but I think we're past that point now.

For what it's worth I don't think Umlaut was wrong on Flubber but there's another part of me that thinks Flubber could have been pushing Seanzie's bad reasoning in his own way and it strikes me as odd that Umlaut went for Flubber and didn't make any comment towards Seanzie.

What are your reads looking like so far?

VOTE: Alchemist21[/b]

Someone doesn’t have to mention a second player during pushing a first if it would dilute their case.
It would be like me saying “oh my god tris is scum because blah blah blah”
Then someone saying “But you didn’t mention anything about (player tris is pushing)”
So? That’s cart before the horse.

Kinda thinking chaos + Alchemist here.

[MathBlade]

I think Seanzie's caginess is more likely to come from town then from scum.

I also think that Flubber's reaction to the caginess seems bad . I don't think that anyone would read Seanzie's post and actually think they were saying that posting=bad, and it was very obvious what he was actually saying.

VOTE: flubber

would you like me to join your wagon?

This post here is disgusting. At this point this is Umlaut’s wagon on Flubber not Lukewarm’s.
This also throws off VCA entirely later.

Gonna go with how there’s a lot of bad bullshit here, Flubber and Titus is probably TvT here. There’s enough just bad posturing here that I don’t think this hits scum.

[MathBlade]

waiting for my hero.




Alchemist do you think Seanzie is a Mafia?

No. He feels more like low-hanging fruit to me and I think both he and I were interested in seeing who else would push him for voting me. It was notable to me after the first 2 votes that the people voting Seanzie were people who know me, but 2 could just be a coincidence and I wanted to see if there would be a pattern and if anyone would try to pocket me along the way. I wanted to see how it played out a bit more but I think we're past that point now.

For what it's worth I don't think Umlaut was wrong on Flubber but there's another part of me that thinks Flubber could have been pushing Seanzie's bad reasoning in his own way and it strikes me as odd that Umlaut went for Flubber and didn't make any comment towards Seanzie.

What are your reads looking like so far?

VOTE: Alchemist21

Someone doesn’t have to mention a second player during pushing a first if it would dilute their case.
It would be like me saying “oh my god tris is scum because blah blah blah”
Then someone saying “But you didn’t mention anything about (player tris is pushing)”
So? That’s cart before the horse.

Kinda thinking chaos + Alchemist here.

Ebwop

[MathBlade]

fear not, i am here!

VOTE: Flubber

VOTE: Aristeia

This is just bad. “Hey Luke can I join your wagon?” Neither Luke nor the wagon holder does.
Datisti posts wordy words.
Aristeia joins the wagon.
How does a Townie if they wanna know if they can join the wagon not wait for the feedback asked? What is this?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Flubber

Why should I make any kind of post toward Seanzie? I read the thread, I saw Flubber joining a convenient wagon for disingenuous reasons, I voted him.

This post is really terrible. It feels like scum taking an RVS interaction way too seriously.

Do you get similar feelings from 26/30 by Flubber? If not, what makes them feel different?

Kinda getting chaos, alchemist, Aristeia vibes but I don’t think a hero solve on page two can be right.

[MathBlade]

I actually mindmelded with Flubber but I take things very literally. So I am guessing that there's a tonal aspect to things.

I feel Umlaut flips scum here though.

VOTE: Umlaut

Happy Birthday. Sorry you got a red pm for it.

So pretty much from this post alone Flubber is probably TvT.

Titus saw a bit of herself in Flubber and is reacting emotionally in the moment rather than a strategic play.
Which also makes her read on Umlaut likely utter garbage.

[MathBlade]

A non-ridiculous reading is "there is something in Alchemist's posts that Seanzie didn't like and he's being coy about what exactly" and not "posting = bad," and I have a hard time believing the latter is really what you thought he meant even for a second.

More votes on Flub plz

so I don't think seanzie is literally scumreading someone for posting more. I think they're trying to manufacture a push and doing it poorly. so the only thing they could shade alchemist for was "posting". seems like I'm right too, because in elaborating, they're now saying things that are just...wrong

What do you think of my idea that Seanzie may have been testing to see who would try defending/pocketing me?

I think that if you had that idea you’d have pushed it rather than asking others about it.

[MathBlade]

I actually mindmelded with Flubber but I take things very literally. So I am guessing that there's a tonal aspect to things.

I feel Umlaut flips scum here though.

VOTE: Umlaut

Happy Birthday. Sorry you got a red pm for it.

So pretty much from this post alone Flubber is probably TvT.

Titus saw a bit of herself in Flubber and is reacting emotionally in the moment rather than a strategic play.
Which also makes her read on Umlaut likely utter garbage.

Gee thanks. Nice to see you too.

Nice to see you too.

Sorry I just woke up and probably could have wordsmithed that better but yeah that Umlaut vote is weird at best.

What do you make of my chaos/Alch/Aristeia theory?

[MathBlade]

A non-ridiculous reading is "there is something in Alchemist's posts that Seanzie didn't like and he's being coy about what exactly" and not "posting = bad," and I have a hard time believing the latter is really what you thought he meant even for a second.

More votes on Flub plz

so I don't think seanzie is literally scumreading someone for posting more. I think they're trying to manufacture a push and doing it poorly. so the only thing they could shade alchemist for was "posting". seems like I'm right too, because in elaborating, they're now saying things that are just...wrong

What do you think of my idea that Seanzie may have been testing to see who would try defending/pocketing me?

That's a 400iq strat that people don't do.

…
After literally just losing to scum me where I did that strategy repeatedly.
Nope. People don’t do it. Not at all. Well thought out post. /sarcasm

I can’t tell if T3 is so bad he’s town or not.

[MathBlade]

IMPORTANT SPECIAL NOTE;
There are exactly three players in this game that have access to private topics.

This has been on my mind a bit, but have mods recently started putting info like this in their rulesets? This was an oddly specific detail to include and if there’s a neighborhood it means there’s a guaranteed scum in there.

Ewwww

This is terrible VOTE: Alchemist21

We don’t know Jack. I mean if there’s three scum then this post likely tells the truth.

Maybe scum don’t have a PT and have a discord instead? I have played a smaller game where this was the case. Reading that in the OP made me think what if no scum have a PT at all and made me want to join to see if this is the case.

I see no protown reason to bring this up. At best you’re right and risk outing PRs but at worst you leave an improper impression as scum won’t likely correct you.

Pedit: I don’t care about momentum right now. I care about catching up and feeling the vibes.
When I am and if chaos has momentum still then I may but voting for someone simply because they have momentum poisons my read. My goal isn’t to end the day it’s to elim the most likely scum.

[MathBlade]

I have left a question for Tris about it to see what she says but I don’t like this setup spec out of nowhere.

[MathBlade]

Either, we end this day in a hurry or we use a lot of words to say nothing. Stuff needs to be obfuscated.

Not any more it doesn’t. Assuming you’re town, you have just told scum there’s something to look for so there’s nothing to obfuscate unless you’re wrong. So I hereby say you’re wrong and there’s nothing to look for. Or you could have just let me continue my regular catch-up which sometimes buries things.

[MathBlade]

Maybe scum don’t have a PT and have a discord instead? I have played a smaller game where this was the case. Reading that in the OP made me think what if no scum have a PT at all and made me want to join to see if this is the case.

for the record, don't think either of these things are within the realm or normalcy.

Why not? Normal rules are about what roles are in the games.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Says nothing about whether scum have a PT or not.

And if we assume they do then the moderator telling us there is three scum isnt novel right?

[MathBlade]

Either, we end this day in a hurry or we use a lot of words to say nothing. Stuff needs to be obfuscated.

Not any more it doesn’t. Assuming you’re town, you have just told scum there’s something to look for so there’s nothing to obfuscate unless you’re wrong. So I hereby say you’re wrong and there’s nothing to look for. Or you could have just let me continue my regular catch-up which sometimes buries things.

Why didn't you consider that I'm mindfucking you to look for things that don't exist so I have pointless content to engage with or I post while spamming to hide my partner's scumslip?

Stuff needs to be obfuscated lmao.

I could also be sarcastic partially.

Because a> I am townreading you right now
B> You can’t hide a slip because I always read everything in order so there’s no burying and you know this.
C> Meh you can be the queen of sarcasm for all I care. Take your throne milady

[MathBlade]

normal rules are also about the mechanics, and keeping the game standard. "btw scum have no pt lol" is a slap in the face to both of those, but we can ask.

@mod, is it possible that the main mafia team has no access to what the game would consider a pt?

If I was the mod, I wouldn’t answer any setup question publicly and asked the mod privately. Even if it’s as simple as it was posted two seconds ago to avoid interactions but I have asked tris this.

[MathBlade]

Well, if you're townreading me, why don't you trust me that all my babies need protecting?

1>Because your reads so far seem to be emotionally based crap.
2> Just because you see something doesn’t mean scum will. Calling attention to something existing just makes scum hunt for it. Best to just not talk about it and hope it goes away.

Pedit:

Hi. I think you’re scum care to convince me you’re not?

[MathBlade]

i actually got some townie pings from his posting upon his return. my mind completely skipped over 12 at first, so upon that elaboration, i can see town!flubber going mad at someone "lying" about their push.

opening his iso, don't think he looks *great* exactly, talking only about seanzie and nothing else isn't a great look, which is why i'm fine with him being on y-1 to see what happens and i'm not losing my mind over a possible quickhammer.

well if you say so

UNVOTE: Flubber

Looks like you’re playing the game through Datisi versus having your own reads.

[MathBlade]

Datisis feels town to me.

Now that Flubber has explained more, I think their thought process seems genuine, even thought I disagree with their conclusions.

I am not liking that Aristeia keeps asking other people before she votes/unvotes, like she is absolving herself of her votes.

VOTE: Aristeia

I think that's part of the alt gimmick.

That’s not how alts work.

If she wants to be read as town then she needs to be townie. I don’t try to meta hunt an alt. The purpose of an alt is to distance yourself from your prior play.

Why are you instantly going to alt though?

[MathBlade]

Looks like you’re playing the game through Datisi versus having your own reads.

I don't think being deferential towards people whom you hold a high opinion of is a bad thing.

Mafia games tend to be more ego-driven, I like to be carried by people I trust.

It's just the way I am.

I think it’s horrible because if you’re scum and Datisi is bad boosting a bad Townie gets a lot of mileage and if you’re town we don’t get a chance to read you and your thoughts. Mafia is not a game to be done on the sidelines.

[MathBlade]

Well, if you're townreading me, why don't you trust me that all my babies need protecting?

1>Because your reads so far seem to be emotionally based crap.
2> Just because you see something doesn’t mean scum will. Calling attention to something existing just makes scum hunt for it. Best to just not talk about it and hope it goes away.

Pedit:

Hi. I think you’re scum care to convince me you’re not?

What if I'm a special little person who needs to be sure my logic is tracked?

Then trust I will track your logic then

Give me a bit of time to catch up

[MathBlade]

Close to My Heart: Datisi

Beneath the Sky: Lukewarm, Umlaut, Seanzie

Sea of Dreams: Gamma Emerald, Titus, T3

Waves upon the Shore: ChaosOmega, Meg

The Long Winding Road: Alchemist, Flubber, Vulture

Can you please put a non color version in a spoiler in the future? This is incredibly hard to read. I am guessing this is top to bottom.

[MathBlade]

Datisis feels town to me.

Now that Flubber has explained more, I think their thought process seems genuine, even thought I disagree with their conclusions.

I am not liking that Aristeia keeps asking other people before she votes/unvotes, like she is absolving herself of her votes.

VOTE: Aristeia

I had the same thought. I get the feeling Ari might need to give me a cookie.

I don’t think Aristeia is that person
I think I’ve encountered Aristeia in the stream chat of a certain pink circular creature who may be just a little skinny

How about both of you quit alt hunting/outing and start/go back to scum hunting?

I think Aristeia is likely scum but trying to out them to get an advantage whatever your alignment is a jerk move.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: chaosomega

i cannot wait for us to yeet flubber today and he flips scum and then i look like an idiot tomorrow. anyway, 227 gives me bad vibes, kinda feels like scum nitpicking any miniscule thing just so they can stay on-wagon.

re flubber's 222 - i feel like there's been at least something that pinged me wrong on minimum half the slots here, that's why i said it. i could iso everyone and compile that, but... i don't feel like that's gonna be useful for me or anyone else.

flubber, do you have any townreads?

VOTE: chaos Time to join the “idiot” club because this Flubber wagon sucks.

[MathBlade]

I like Aristeia's response and read list.

UNVOTE:

Am back from my VLA, and will probably give the game a reread later tonight

atm, I am roughtly at Datisi, Umlaut, Gamma, Aristeia feeling like town

Flubber felt like scum, then wormed back to null again, but then was not a fan of the recent interaction with Titus. Similar to what Alchemist said, it felt like a pocket attempt coming from flubber

Titus is a hard player to read, and want to give her a closer look

T3 is T3

I have zero thoughts about: chaos, meg, vulture. Had to look at the playerlist to see who I was missing

And you still forget my slot lol.

I think you’re town though so it’s probably just derpage

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Lukewarm
…..OMGUS

That post really could be shorter.

Just a matter of if it’s town OMGUS or scum omgus

[MathBlade]

He votes for Lukewarm and then,

His first two lines are explain-y, as in "this is what I'm actually trying to do", the point he's making is that he did nothing wrong.

I find that tends to come from people who are scum and disagree with the manner in which they get caught.

Because if Lukewarm is scum, why would he even bother explaining to Lukewarm what he's actually trying to do?


"If everyone is jumping off, why would I be so desperate as scum to keep on here? Wouldn't this draw attention to me as it has?"

This line is just wifom.

He's also looking at Lukewarm jumping off me, but if he actually believes Flubber to be scum, he should be much more interested in how Lukewarm started the Flubber wagon and then jumped off of it rather than the interaction with me.

Worth of note this is the first time Aristeia has conviction/pushes a read.

I am pausing here because IRL stuff but this I need to think about in-depth.

[MathBlade]

I think it’s horrible because if you’re scum and Datisi is bad boosting a bad Townie gets a lot of mileage and if you’re town we don’t get a chance to read you and your thoughts. Mafia is not a game to be done on the sidelines.

I think I've been fairly transparent about my thoughts on the game so far.

I like to support Datisi because he's a brilliant player and one that I townread.

I've played before with him and he instantly caught a scum and helped put the town on its way to winning quite handily.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87222

Why do you think Datisi is a bad townie?

Not what I said. I was posing a hypothetical.

If you’re scum AND Datisi is a bad townie.
As scum there’s plenty of reasons to hide behind a townie. That’s the first that came to mind because of how I play scum sometimes.

Brilliance in the past is not an indicative of brilliance now or bad play or anything. That’s why you BoP good players but don’t sheep them directly

[MathBlade]

Again it’s not an accusation that’s a misrep.

I work in hypotheticals.

That’s what BoP means. If I assume Datisi is good town (I haven’t played with him in like ever) then I Burden of Proficiency him. That means if we don’t have scum by like day 3 then Datisi shoots up on my PoE regardless of it.

However I still form my own opinions and see where we do and don’t sync.

Just because someone is good doesn’t mean you clock out.

[MathBlade]

Maybe scum don’t have a PT and have a discord instead? I have played a smaller game where this was the case. Reading that in the OP made me think what if no scum have a PT at all and made me want to join to see if this is the case.

This would be a shit move to pull imo

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=73980

It’s really not. It just has to be planned for and balanced around.

Mafia is defined as an informed minority vs an informed majority.

In that game I was scum so I am weary of weird setups because I have seen them.

There’s nothing in the normal rules that I could find where scum have to have a PT.

[MathBlade]

A non-ridiculous reading is "there is something in Alchemist's posts that Seanzie didn't like and he's being coy about what exactly" and not "posting = bad," and I have a hard time believing the latter is really what you thought he meant even for a second.

More votes on Flub plz

so I don't think seanzie is literally scumreading someone for posting more. I think they're trying to manufacture a push and doing it poorly. so the only thing they could shade alchemist for was "posting". seems like I'm right too, because in elaborating, they're now saying things that are just...wrong

What do you think of my idea that Seanzie may have been testing to see who would try defending/pocketing me?

I think that if you had that idea you’d have pushed it rather than asking others about it.

I did push that idea in post 47

Not seeing how that post 47 has to do with my predecessor potentially seeing who would defend/pocket you. Even if I grant everything in this post, you’re trying to see who pockets you along the way rather than my predecessor’s push.

And if you had done it in 47 and I am misunderstanding why repeat the same question twice? What are you hoping to hunt by being repetitive?

[MathBlade]

@mod, is it possible that the main mafia team has no access to what the game would consider a pt?

that is not possible. mafia have a pt by virtue of being mafia.

Glad my paranoia is wrong then. So yeah probably looking at a mod reason for that first post for balance reasons.

[MathBlade]

No. He feels more like low-hanging fruit to me and I think both he and I were interested in seeing who else would push him for voting me. It was notable to me after the first 2 votes that the people voting Seanzie were people who know me, but 2 could just be a coincidence and I wanted to see if there would be a pattern and if anyone would try to pocket me along the way. I wanted to see how it played out a bit more but I think we're past that point now.

This is how I read what you wrote.

S feels like a miselim target. You think S and you wanted who would push S into voting for you.
You were trying to see who would pocket you along the way.
You think that play is not possible now.

This has nothing to do with how S seeing who would pocket/manipulate you but rather who would pocket/manipulate S.

And again if I am wrong here you said figuring this out was dead? Why bring up a dead horse?

[MathBlade]

What are you hoping to hunt by being repetitive?

A better understanding of Flubber’s alignment.

Okay then how do you learn Flubber’s alignment by reviving questions you think impossible to push?

[MathBlade]

I don't think assuming scum has a pt is some massive slip

I never said it was.

My main job as town is to consider all possible options. Having seen prior games where scum didn’t have a PT I didn’t want a potential mass claim situation where people “I am in a PT” “Me too” “Me three” then scum who didn’t have a PT goes “Now we know who to kill.”

I thrive off town making bad assumptions when scum so my goal here was to avoid bad assumptions.

[MathBlade]

You think S and you wanted who would push S into voting for you

No, this is where you’re wrong. I thought we both wanted to see who would vote S in defense of me, because S was pushing me. That’s where the idea of people trying to pocket me comes in.

Sorry for getting this wrong. I see it now. I still don’t like the repetitiveness without adding anything new but it’s not as bad as I thought.

[MathBlade]

1) idk if that’s even the right term tbh, what I’m saying is despite being more poetic-sounding, the contents of 195 feel just as game-relevant as anything else. To put it in a poetic perspective, we write our thoughts in the dirt, while Aristeia writes hers in the clouds.
2) because you and Menalque played in EISAL 2 on a hydra that was titled “a Gun and a Rose”, and you both weren’t in G&R V on your mains
3) Because I would figure you’d see where I’m coming from better.

@Datisi
@Gamma

Can either of you tell me what kind of game this was so I can go to that forum or ideally provide a link? I feel I am losing some context here.

[MathBlade]

Is my vote not a comment on what I think of the wagon?

No

If everyone is jumping off, why would I be so desperate as scum to keep on here? Wouldn't this draw attention to me as it has?

Would you call scum "describing a reason why they scum read the person they are currently voting" as desperate? I didn't, and wouldn't. That is a strange interpretation of my words.

The jump on and off of Aristeia doesn't feel natural to me. Did you scumread her when you voted her in 171?

What does not feel natural to you? I said she did not have reads, and that was worrying to me. She gave a read list, and provided reasonings when asked.

As for other reads I have, Umlaut, Seanzie, Vulture, and Datisi for town, something about Gamma is pinging me, but I can't really put it into words, so I'm ignoring it for now, still think Flubber is scum, the push on Seanzie and his post about mindmelding w/ Titus reads phony.

See, this is what I find strange about your response. One of the things that I said was bothering me was that you don't have reads out there

Spoiler:

As of now he has commented on T3, and Flubber, and thats it.

And even with the two of them, he has been stand offish of taking stances. Despite having interacted with T3, I have no idea if he thinks that T3 is townie or scummy? So that leaves Chaos's only read in thread to be flubber.

And, with Flubber, he also held back...

And you see me make that point. Apparently realize that you should put some reads out out, but then also don't realize that I had a point, and therefore valid reason to pressure you for reads?

There seems to me to be a bit of cognitive dissonance between the omgus voting me reaction (which when coming from town, I find normally comes from a place of feeling like the reasons the person is scum reading you are non-genuine), while also addressing my biggest concern about you in this way.

+1 Lukewarm is anything but a lukewarm townread

[MathBlade]

it was pretty obvious that t3 was trying to get out of having to say something about mech and i'm hmm at alchemist trying to force the issue >_>

i still wanna see the wall on my meta, though.

it was pretty obvious that t3 was trying to get out of having to say something about mech and i'm hmm at alchemist trying to force the issue >_>

i still wanna see the wall on my meta, though.

It’s the only acceptable answer he could have given, but to call attention to the post then try to sweep it under the rug instead of giving their thoughts looked more like scum going “shit I fucked up and this looks bad, let’s hope they forget about it and it goes away.”

In almost every answer you “let scum go” in that case and good town knows it. The role will prove itself or then you come back later if someone claims and subtly ask T3 for his opinion. Mass claim early loses games here. Odds are scum just aren’t going to be that dumb with a fish. This is only done if you’re 99% sure that this comes from scum and sometimes not even then.

I just have to figure out if you’re bad town or my initial vibes were right.

VOTE: Alchemist

I am leaning towards my vibes being right.

[MathBlade]

it was pretty obvious that t3 was trying to get out of having to say something about mech and i'm hmm at alchemist trying to force the issue >_>

i still wanna see the wall on my meta, though.

It’s the only acceptable answer he could have given, but to call attention to the post then try to sweep it under the rug instead of giving their thoughts looked more like scum going “shit I fucked up and this looks bad, let’s hope they forget about it and it goes away.”

I’ve seen T3!scum do something like this, I don’t think is it

Having just been in a T3 game with T3 while admittedly didn’t look over a lot of their posts in that game after the “informed of rolecop post” I do get Calculasia vibes here. So I think T3 is town.

[MathBlade]

After a meta skim on Datisi I'm comfortable locktowning him.

I'm ok with

Datisti Gamma T3 Lukewarm Flubber all being town.

I am okay with this list with a tail end off for Titus because I will always be paranoid of her but she’s town enough today to not be the elim.

[MathBlade]

1) idk if that’s even the right term tbh, what I’m saying is despite being more poetic-sounding, the contents of 195 feel just as game-relevant as anything else. To put it in a poetic perspective, we write our thoughts in the dirt, while Aristeia writes hers in the clouds.
2) because you and Menalque played in EISAL 2 on a hydra that was titled “a Gun and a Rose”, and you both weren’t in G&R V on your mains
3) Because I would figure you’d see where I’m coming from better.

@Datisi
@Gamma

Can either of you tell me what kind of game this was so I can go to that forum or ideally provide a link? I feel I am losing some context here.

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=81945

everything is still a lie 2, though i think the important part of that post was the fact that mena and i have hydra called "a gun and a rose", and in GnR5 there were two accounts called "gun" and "rose". and they weren't us

Lmao that’s gonna be some mind fuckery while reading considering I keep track of everyone as the first letter(s) of their handle

[MathBlade]

I have a strong preference to a Chaos > Meg elim day 1.

I think that they are both about equally scummy, but Meg having actually no opinions in thread means that we don't get any associatives from a Meg flip.

Relatable opinion. If there was a choice between those two, I'd see your point. It's Flubber v Meg though and a scum vote is better than a town one.

I think that we can make Chaos happen.

Datisi and Ari both voted Chaos already, and I have not seen anything from them to think that their reads there have changed.

You+me+Datisi+Ari is already the same number of people currently voting Meg, so that pivot seems to still be on the table from my pov

VOTE: Chaos

Make the game lawful aligned!

[MathBlade]

why is titus town?

I believe I addressed this earlier when you asked me to look at Titus v Flubber. There’s also something she is doing that is remarkably protown that I don’t want to ruin, even if she is scum she is working in town’s benefit. I think we will have to see what happens overnight to get a more firm read but I am okay with giving her a townread.

[MathBlade]

if titus flips red this game, we're yeeting flubber, no questions asked. and i'm thinking of jumping the ship here and voting there now anyway. titus here gives me a huge vibe of "scum realizing the wagon on buddy isn't going away on its own, jumping into action to try to save them", especially as i know she loves trying to protect her partners.

my only issue is that i want to get a better read on meg first, and i know i won't be able to do that for a bit here... sad.

Not really seeing this here. Titus is very much a strategic scum. If the wagon wasn’t going to go away she makes the play to save Flubber earlier or stomps scum Flubber into dirt. Scum Titus doesn’t like playing from a hand of weakness which is ironically a hand of weakness because if she is scum her strategy becomes clear.

[MathBlade]

all i saw earlier was "titus has had bad reads so they can be tvt", i hadn't seen Actual Reasons for her to be town, but to be fair i have been skimming a lot too so

My reasoning is more nuanced.

It’s I went through all the possible alignments then TvT is the only one that really makes the most sense. The others are probable.

My main other reason to townread her involves things we shouldn’t talk about so I guess because Star Wars?

[MathBlade]

all i saw earlier was "titus has had bad reads so they can be tvt", i hadn't seen Actual Reasons for her to be town, but to be fair i have been skimming a lot too so

My reasoning is more nuanced.

It’s I went through all the possible alignments then TvT is the only one that really makes the most sense. The others are probable.

My main other reason to townread her involves things we shouldn’t talk about so I guess because Star Wars?

Are possible*

Ebwop

[MathBlade]

I am caught up now as of this post. I have game night tonight so I may not be online tonight.

[MathBlade]

My main other reason to townread her involves things we shouldn’t talk about so I guess because Star Wars?

Because Starwars is great. Long love the society. Especially an overjoyed run of making bread of sausages. Specially 10 leaves.

Parker can secure the prize.

Go be Sophie.

You realize I am a horrible Sophie when town right?

Ugh why couldn’t I be Hardison?

Let’s just hope I don’t fork this up.

[MathBlade]

Besides Umlaut (who you’ve repeated is scum repeatedly) who do you have a scumread on and why?

[MathBlade]

See here’s the situation I am in. Assume scum kill you tonight, then you have left nothing really tangible to go towards. If you’re flash wagoned right now (which I disagree with) your ISO is pretty lacking. You’re asking me to already play in a way more your style here and I am taking it on a leap of faith you’re not setting me up for failure here don’t make it hard for me.

[MathBlade]

See here’s the situation I am in. Assume scum kill you tonight, then you have left nothing really tangible to go towards. If you’re flash wagoned right now (which I disagree with) your ISO is pretty lacking. You’re asking me to already play in a way more your style here and I am taking it on a leap of faith you’re not setting me up for failure here don’t make it hard for me.

If scum kill me tonight, there will be solid evidence of what I did and my reads.

My ISO always falls off on a weekend, but it's pretty clear who I townread and my weak scumreads. Being in a weaker position is ok.

I'm reaching out to you just in case the prize is scum. I'm like 99% sure it isn't but you know leverage.

Yeah I know leverage pretty well.

Let’s go steal a victory.

[MathBlade]

Mathblade: new sub in so chalk it up to a null read so far
Lukewarm: likes to move around their vote, clash with Chaos appears to be Town on town Imo, mainly coming from a disparity in approach to votes, slight townread
T3: is T3, slight townread
Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread
Tris: extremely scummy, lim on sight
Umlaut: mostly talks surrounding flubber, and not adding input on the rest of the game, posts intermittently but not often. Scumread
Vulture: on 2 occasions (me and flubber) added to a large wagon without providing thoughts of said wagon, very few reads given until very recently, Scumread

Honestly it feels like vulture hasn’t received enough pressure after their putting flubber at E-1. Especially after Chaos ended up doing the same before, with a much less meaningful vote.

VOTE: Vulture

Really? I have more posts than a good chunk of the game and you can’t formulate any sort of read on me?

[MathBlade]

he was dismissive yeah, but i think he brought up some valid points. most of your reads feel like they need some heavy elaboration.

Agreed. Especially the inability to form a read on me.

That just seems like lazy scum

[MathBlade]

Feel free to press on whatever point you want first, try to be more specific than "most" its a lot easier for me to communicate this 1 by 1 than all at once, and I figure it will be easier for you guys to digest as well.


Also Mathblade, I have reads on you, but I don't feel so inclined to disclose them until they settle on something, nostly it aligns with what I already mentioned about you though.

Who is “they” and what do “they” need to settle on before you can give a read?

[MathBlade]

"they" are my reads on you. I see them falling on either side of the scum/town line right now, which is why I am leaving you as unsure on my reads list until I make up my mind.

Why do you find it so important I have a defined read on you? Seems like a little of a weird thing to ask of me. I would love to hear why you seem to want it so much.

I'll get to you Datisis in a few minutes.

Because you can give a quantifiable read on someone with less posts and interactions and can’t give a read on me despite me interacting with a decent portion of the game. It feels inauthentic to me.

The way you phrase it is also passive “I am a replacement so no read” vs actively engaging with content.

A scumread using ridiculous logic because it was Sunday and cats were meowing would be better than that.

[MathBlade]

Mathblade: new sub in so chalk it up to a null read so far
Lukewarm: likes to move around their vote, clash with Chaos appears to be Town on town Imo, mainly coming from a disparity in approach to votes, slight townread
T3: is T3, slight townread
Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread
Tris: extremely scummy, lim on sight
Umlaut: mostly talks surrounding flubber, and not adding input on the rest of the game, posts intermittently but not often. Scumread
Vulture: on 2 occasions (me and flubber) added to a large wagon without providing thoughts of said wagon, very few reads given until very recently, Scumread

Honestly it feels like vulture hasn’t received enough pressure after their putting flubber at E-1. Especially after Chaos ended up doing the same before, with a much less meaningful vote.

VOTE: Vulture

Really? I have more posts than a good chunk of the game and you can’t formulate any sort of read on me?

I'm in the same boat as meg tbh

Okay then ask me what you need to get a read on me. What helps you sort me?

[MathBlade]

Mathblade: new sub in so chalk it up to a null read so far
Lukewarm: likes to move around their vote, clash with Chaos appears to be Town on town Imo, mainly coming from a disparity in approach to votes, slight townread
T3: is T3, slight townread
Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread
Tris: extremely scummy, lim on sight
Umlaut: mostly talks surrounding flubber, and not adding input on the rest of the game, posts intermittently but not often. Scumread
Vulture: on 2 occasions (me and flubber) added to a large wagon without providing thoughts of said wagon, very few reads given until very recently, Scumread

Honestly it feels like vulture hasn’t received enough pressure after their putting flubber at E-1. Especially after Chaos ended up doing the same before, with a much less meaningful vote.

VOTE: Vulture

Really? I have more posts than a good chunk of the game and you can’t formulate any sort of read on me?

I'm in the same boat as meg tbh

Okay then ask me what you need to get a read on me. What helps you sort me?

I don't know.
I guess I'll metadive you.

K. I will be sniping off and on all night as I can.

I would not recommend meta diving me but if that helps you go for it.

Pedit: Datisi, I can do that late tonight. I can’t really do that from my phone and my PC is occupied atm

[MathBlade]

I have a strong preference to a Chaos > Meg elim day 1.

I think that they are both about equally scummy, but Meg having actually no opinions in thread means that we don't get any associatives from a Meg flip.

Relatable opinion. If there was a choice between those two, I'd see your point. It's Flubber v Meg though and a scum vote is better than a town one.

I think that we can make Chaos happen.

Datisi and Ari both voted Chaos already, and I have not seen anything from them to think that their reads there have changed.

You+me+Datisi+Ari is already the same number of people currently voting Meg, so that pivot seems to still be on the table from my pov

VOTE: Chaos

Make the game lawful aligned!

What the fuck
Did MathBlade have reasons to SR Chaos I’m not remembering or did he literally just make what’s essentially an RVS vote on page 23?

You’re having trouble remembering my reasons.

I have been scumreading Chaos for a while.

It was a bit consolidating on page 23 but definitely not RVS.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Lots of posts

My intent is more that independent of T3’s alignment he shouldn’t do it. That’s what policy means. It’s a vote that is policy until I catch up and I want to be able to do so.

What do you make of your chaos wagon and reactions or lack thereof?

My intent is more that independent of T3’s alignment he shouldn’t do it. That’s what policy means. It’s a vote that is policy until I catch up and I want to be able to do so.

What do you make of your chaos wagon and reactions or lack thereof?

I still prefer the Chaos flip, and feel like all of Dats, Ari, and Titus have voiced a scum read there, and honestly unsure why they all decided to jump to Meg over Chaos. But, I think that Meg also is looking like a scum flip, so not the end of the world I guess.

I would move to Chaos too, I just have a preference for Flubber.

Why?

waiting for my hero.




Alchemist do you think Seanzie is a Mafia?

No. He feels more like low-hanging fruit to me and I think both he and I were interested in seeing who else would push him for voting me. It was notable to me after the first 2 votes that the people voting Seanzie were people who know me, but 2 could just be a coincidence and I wanted to see if there would be a pattern and if anyone would try to pocket me along the way. I wanted to see how it played out a bit more but I think we're past that point now.

For what it's worth I don't think Umlaut was wrong on Flubber but there's another part of me that thinks Flubber could have been pushing Seanzie's bad reasoning in his own way and it strikes me as odd that Umlaut went for Flubber and didn't make any comment towards Seanzie.

What are your reads looking like so far?

VOTE: Alchemist21[/b]

Someone doesn’t have to mention a second player during pushing a first if it would dilute their case.
It would be like me saying “oh my god tris is scum because blah blah blah”
Then someone saying “But you didn’t mention anything about (player tris is pushing)”
So? That’s cart before the horse.

Kinda thinking chaos + Alchemist here.

Phone posting so it’s a bit hard to get them all but there’s a few. Not sure how you forget that and be reading my ISO. *raised eyebrow emoji*

[MathBlade]

Vulture, I'm very curious about your townread on Lukewarm.

To be blunt, I do not like your ISO, which is perhaps to be expected but it is how I feel nonetheless. Scum are heavily incentivized to play lower key Day 1/2 if they can get away with it.

How do you like 623 and 630 and then say you don’t like Vulture’s ISO?

What stands out to you?

This seems to contradict your prior post.

[MathBlade]

To be clear, that isn't the reason I dislike your ISO. I dislike your ISO because of the Luke TR+vote on Meg. That's a counterpoint to my own line of thinking on your lack of motivation.

Ah that makes sense. I really think you should read the game as a whole. I know you said you’re doing the ISO thing but some things probably won’t make sense in a vaccuum.

Pedit: oh god warehouse was a trip. That game I honestly try to forget. But yeah hopefully no tilt this game.

[MathBlade]

I know you said you’re doing the ISO thing but some things probably won’t make sense in a vaccuum.

I'll read the whole game front to back regardless but I rarely read ISOs even later, and discussions with petapan have made me very interested in giving it a try at the start rather than just lategame.

I apologize if the approach winds up being frustrating.

*lights your router on fire*

Hope you got someone to heal your router so you can post tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Sentences in player list order

(There are other reasons and I'm practically falling asleep as I'm writing this but I'm putting the reasons I think are safest for us)
T3 => Annoying, but probably town. I wish he'd quit being antitown, but probably town. Has some instances that separate him from Aristeia where he shows he's analyzing the game.
MegAzumarill => Scum lean. Her posting seems very surface level. She should be able to explain them more. Even her responses don't reference things in thread. They reference what she does as scum for one of them. In her developed response to Datisi she says "Your locking on to something and trying to pressure that person until you are convinced they are town ends up seeming towny. You give off the energy of trying to spot scum, and when you think you have, you don't let up until you either are convinced otherwise or find another person to pressure, and while I don't doubt it can be very effective, it does seem awfully prone to causing mislims. "

This is something you say to a scumread not a town one. But she says in a prior post
"tends to latch onto one thing about a player that they find suspicious and stick by it for long stretches, townread, "

I find this more common with scum than town so they don't have to vote. A good example of me doing this was the Calculasia game mentioned several times. "There has to be a scum in (big list of PRs claims)" but there wasn't. I used the fact the setup was completely townsided to my advantage. The only reason she's not as high up as someone like Chaos as she doesn't seem to have any defenders. This means it's very much either a newbie scum team (which in that case not to worry) or scum are very disconnected right now.

I also think if Meg is scum it's probably with Aristeia.

Vulture* => Null read => Vulture didn't really interact with some of the important stuff earlier (vague I know!) and Vulture hasn't changed their vote off of Meg to anywhere else. If Meg flips town I'd look at Vulture. I think one is probably scum (more than likely Meg) but I don't think both can be scum together.

Alchemist21 => Scum ping/null? Some of his posts ping me the wrong way. I'm not as convinced of him being scum but he's still definitely in my PoE.
Gamma Emerald => I was town pinging him at first, but these last few posts are pretty bad. Gamma's played with me enough to know that I'm top tier scum so if Gamma genuinely thought I was scum I think he'd go back and make a genuine case. I'm going to stick with town for now, but that read is degrading fast.
Umlaut => Town ping/null? (mostly because Titus scumread Umlaut at the start and she tends to townread scum and scumread town at the start of games. See Galron = town and all her D1 votes) I don't think a scum titus defends Flubber hard in RVS like that (see prior arguments) I'm kinda leaning towards the null category because I haven't interacted but until Titus shows a record of being better in RVS she should probably lay back and maybe active lurk RVS. *hides from the inevitable you suck at town as a whole Math* and *Math hasn't RVS'd in like a billion years except maybe Warehouse*
Datisi => I don't think you post 512 as scum here. This shows an attentiveness to vote counts that you'd naturally have to keep up as scum.
Seanzie* MathBlade => Me
Aristeia => Scum/Antitown I kinda hope her stick of just sheeping and random crap ends soon. She's very difficult to read like this and she's not really doing much proactively after pointing it out. I get the feeling she'd rather just post gifs than play mafia. I always PoE people who are this antitown. She doesn't have to post anything about relevant wagons and people let her by because the gifs are fun.
Titus => I think she's town because she doesn't seem like she has a coherent plan. I don't think scum her goes whole hog to save a potential buddy like that especially when a traitor is possible. The fact she also tried to communicate with me something also makes me think she's town.
Lukewarm => First push on Chaos and like no body commented. Ghost town. This has a moderately high probability of being on scum for the sheer fact no other vote seemed to be nearby it and when I asked Luke about it he said the following:

viewtopic.php?p=12921686#p12921686

A lot of people expressing a scumread but being unable/unwilling to follow it is a common sign of a vote being on scum.

ChaosOmega => Would vig if I could. If Chaos is scum then I'd look in that list of players that expressed a scumread and did not follow it through. Between the omgus on Lukewarm and his iso interacting with a very limited pool of players, I'd love a vig of Chaos here. If Chaos is town, then I'd need to go see why Chaos was getting scumreads and see if one of those players is scum or if someone was manipulating things to get people to say that.

Flubbernugget Prism => Likely town here because of how the Flubber wagon formed and the defense after. Prism's entrance seemed shaky at first, but I liked their responses.

Overall I think if Meg is town then scum have control of the gamestate somewhere and I'd look for someone manipulating the game. With no champion for the Flubber/Prism wagon then to me its dead because if it's a scum bus then scum would want the credit and if it's led by a town player then if they thought Flubber would flip scum they'd go "Hell ya I'm the champion here's why Flubber flips scum". The only other person this could be is Umlaut at this point and there will be plenty of other ways to test him. The fact no one seems to vouch for the Flubber wagon hardly at all, means that Prism is probably town. I'm kinda at the point some fuckery is happening but I'm not sure where so I wanna flip some people to find it.

[MathBlade]

I don’t want an opinion on something specific. I want you to show me you have reads and are scum/town hunting however you do it. If you’re town I want you to convince me that my read of you is wrong by being deep. If you showing your thoughts means pushing someone do that. If it means a read wall do that. Show me you have reads don’t tell me you do and ask me how to get out of the proverbial dog house.

[MathBlade]

I don’t want an opinion on something specific. I want you to show me you have reads and are scum/town hunting however you do it. If you’re town I want you to convince me that my read of you is wrong by being deep. If you showing your thoughts means pushing someone do that. If it means a read wall do that. Show me you have reads don’t tell me you do and ask me how to get out of the proverbial dog house.

Right now my solve is Prism - Meg - Alchemist21.


I don't like the way Prism entered the thread or the way Flubber voted for Meg.

I don't think it makes sense as town!prism, it feels like scum!prism entered, saw the top two wagons were scum!prism + scum!meg and decided to try to powerwolf and take control of the thread.

Specifically this entry post:

UNVOTE:

Given 610 and Meg's relative inexperience-why is this slot even on the table?

I will be reading over the game tomorrow and perhaps can answer my own question then.

610 was posted 9 minutes before Prism's post.

It feels like Prism is stating that it is unthinkable that we are even considering Meg as an elimination option due to 610.

This is silly because

1) 610 was just posted - nobody even has had a chance to respond to it.
2) Prism has just replaced in and has no idea why we are voting Meg nor a real read on her.

There is an edge here that feels like an agenda to me. I don't think Town!Prism would enter the thread with this much certainty.

This is better as it gives me something to read but bad in that the reason for Prism is bad and no mention of why the Alch scumread and barely a thought to Meg. Your entire worldview seems built on Prism scum and the “silly because” logic.

This post however is not bad.

Take point 1 no one has had a chance to respond to it.

Assume 610 was the moderator coming down saying Meg was town. No wiggle room. And you saw the wagon at a moderate size. You’d be angry right? And Prism was angry. Whether or not someone had time to respond doesn’t magically quell that anger.

And about the reason voting for her, so what? Sometimes people coming in fresh have a perspective different than those already in the game. Why would Prism have to have read the game before forming a read on Meg? Some posts are just townslips. I think if this second reason was your opinion you should have gone about this differently.

Overall I like the fact you’re doing something readable now but I am not impressed with the content.

[MathBlade]

Datisi => I don't think you post 512 as scum here. This shows an attentiveness to vote counts that you'd naturally have to keep up as scum.

there is a very specific reason i posted that, i was gonna wait until flubber reacted but he got replaced and prism did react so

there is a tell that i call "the iconeum tell" bc he taught it to me, the idea is that if you have two ~scummy wagons, and the two wagonees are playing around each other awkwardly, and/or are avoiding each other like the plague, they're more likely to be scum/scum wagons. (i used this in a recent c9++)

flubber's "lol why are we wagoning the v/la" struck me as possibly that, because obviously scum!flubber doesn't wanna die, but also doesn't wanna vote his buddy counterwagon. but i had to wait for meg. and once meg was like "flubber is scummy", *no vote*, and after saying they like having a vote on someone at all times? yeah it did no good things to that read

flubber dud end up voting meg, but ehhh his vote was... awkward at best. and prism entering with screaming about how dare we wagon meg, and immediately trying to discredit me based on ~tone~

will properly read the rest later, i skimmed a bit and this from math caught my eye so wanted to elaborate

Having been scum many,many, many times I think that’s a load of hot shit. A good/decent scum does not do the things you’re talking about there. All that Ico tell is is whether a player happens to be a newbie or not. New town players tend to vote their cross wagon awkwardly (a fact I have exploited many times). A newbie Town knows their town and so dying is bad so they vote their cross wagon because maybe their scum. A newbie scum will tend to provide some sort of content reason to look good. It gets difficult to get newbie scum to post at all. I am glad you did well in that C9 but that’s probably more of a coincidence than an outright tell.

Flubber’s vote on Meg is awkward and that’s a pretty good reason this is not SvS, and I am pretty sure Prism is town here. Of the two I think Meg has the best chance of flipping scum here. No one really championed the Flubber wagon so it’s pretty dead to me. Reviving it now is kinda sketch as if no one was willing to stand up for it in the past then there’s probably a reason.

[MathBlade]

In your theory, do you think that her push on me was supposed to work?

Or are you saying that she scum read me to get a town read, to then pivot to someone else?

Prism is very good at scum so yes

So no? Prism wouldn’t try such low hanging fruit with me right here. Prism and I butt heads rather quickly. I don’t think Prism goes out of their way to remind me how much sometimes Prism annoys me. Once I am wound up I can get a bit stuck (working on it). Prism would wind me up on someone specific and Townie. I don’t see the strategy here. Like with a replacement like Prism they’d know I would watch them like a hawk.

[MathBlade]

No one really championed the Flubber wagon so it’s pretty dead to me.

why is this an indication that the wagon is on a townie?

If no one wants to brag the wagon is theirs then it’s almost certainly on town.

Assume the opposite and Prism is scum:
This means any scum voter doesn’t want credit for a bus.
This means any town voter isn’t confident enough in their scumread to want credit but just has their vote lurking there.

Does that sound like a scum flip to you?

[MathBlade]

also, uh, you talk about "good scum wouldn't do that", and maybe (maybe!) that's true, but i haven't seen proof that either flubber or meg are exceptionally good at scum (no offense, i'm shit at scum too). so i don't see how that invalidates what i said?

and besides, literally all i said was "if the two leading wagons aren't voting each other, they're more likely to both be scum", why is this suddenly someting that "decent scum" doesn't do?

My point is that there’s no difference between bad scum and bad town for that tell.
You specifically mentioned the wagons acting awkwardly towards each other as part of the tell and not speaking about each other as well. That is not “all you said”. For something to be a “scum tell” it has to be accurate a good chunk of the time. At best that’s a “you should look here and see if that’s the case”. When something doesn’t differentiate between newb scum vs newb town, you’ve found a newbie, congrats?

Having been scum a lot, I tend to ask myself if a player is scum why would they do something. What benefit do they get long term? Flubber iirc is good scum (I don’t have time to find a game sorry) so I don’t see a naked vote on Meg as something Flubber does.

I guess just call it “player who gets scum all the time intuition”. I know it’s probably not satisfying but it’s the best I got as I will have to get ready for work soon.

[MathBlade]

intent to haer meg

Can you for fuck’s sake stop threatening hammer or E-1 when I am trying to sort people? It’s pissing me off.

I have to head out for work now but just *glares*

[MathBlade]

last few posts are pretty bad. Gamma's played with me enough to know that I'm top tier scum so if Gamma genuinely thought I was scum I think he'd go back and make a genuine case. I'm going to stick with town for now, but that read is degrading fast.

I’m not quite certain you’re scum, I just think your theory crafting is off base in a way that indicates you have low expectations for the quality of tris’ modding, and imo there’s no reason for you to feel that way

1) Poking a setup of which I believe to still be within the normal rules is not an attack on the quality of Tris’s modding. The entire point was I thought this was going to be similar to extra communication mafia and subvert expectations.

2) I literally just got done with a game where the mods gave town way too much power. The literal name of the game with the past few games I have been in is subvert expectations. It was in Calculasia and Boonskiies to name a few.

3) I have never been in a tris game before and not giving scum a PT imho is a brilliant setup design plan. I do not consider it “not mafia” as the mod said.

I think this post is disgusting as fuck here. Like you seriously make up crap about me not having scumread Chaos and now you’re poking at a bear long since dead? Are you trying to piss me off here? It’s working.

[MathBlade]

If you wanna scumread me go right the fuck ahead but don’t you dare say I am attacking the moderator’s skill to do it.

[MathBlade]

last few posts are pretty bad. Gamma's played with me enough to know that I'm top tier scum so if Gamma genuinely thought I was scum I think he'd go back and make a genuine case. I'm going to stick with town for now, but that read is degrading fast.

I’m not quite certain you’re scum, I just think your theory crafting is off base in a way that indicates you have low expectations for the quality of tris’ modding, and imo there’s no reason for you to feel that way

1) Poking a setup of which I believe to still be within the normal rules is not an attack on the quality of Tris’s modding. The entire point was I thought this was going to be similar to extra communication mafia and subvert expectations.

2) I literally just got done with a game where the mods gave town way too much power. The literal name of the game with the past few games I have been in is subvert expectations. It was in Calculasia and Boonskiies to name a few.

3) I have never been in a tris game before and not giving scum a PT imho is a brilliant setup design plan. I do not consider it “not mafia” as the mod said.

I think this post is disgusting as fuck here. Like you seriously make up crap about me not having scumread Chaos and now you’re poking at a bear long since dead? Are you trying to piss me off here? It’s working.

Tbh I don’t have an issue with the theory about no Mafia PT, though I don’t think that would pass either. My problem was with you thinking using Discord as a substitute in order to subvert expectations would be something any normal reviewer would pass. Expectations can be subverted in normals but telling what is in essence a mod lie is not what I’d consider fair game.
And like, I kinda don’t care that you think my post is “disgusting” when IMO your own actions have felt pretty terrible.

Maybe the discord idea was bad.
I was more thinking in the moment.

That idea still doesn’t attack Tris as a person/mod.

I do not think subverting expectation setups is a bad thing for a mod to do when done well.
I hypothesize setups all the time. Some are good some are bad.

Why are you so hung up on my actions being terrible?
Taking mod information and figuring out what it means is our job.

I will not ever apologize for trying to brainstorm possibilities.
I don’t see how I could have offended anyone here but if I did I will apologize to them post game.

Now if you scumread me let’s talk about something we can actually talk about here. If you think I am scum point out what is scummy. If you think I am a gigantic asshole be better than me.

Because right now it feels like at best you’re policying me or scumreading me because I suggested weird shit versus actually scumreading me for play reasons.

[MathBlade]

Even if it was an AI thing we need people who like scum more than town.

(I prefer scum but enjoy town a lot too.)

*cough* I enjoy scum more than town *cough*

[MathBlade]

I’m not pushing you or voting you, I’m just saying I don’t like the fact you thought something that borders on bastard modding would be allowed in a normal
Maybe I should save it for postgame I guess, but I kinda felt incensed because IMO you should definitely know better. What I guess I’m looking for rn is an admittance that the discord thing would not fly because of how it would be a mod lie in a normal game
Which I guess your last post might have kinda, but it doesn’t feel like you actually grasp WHY the discord idea was bad
Let’s say I modded a normal game where I said there were no Cops, but included a role that well and truly was a substitute for a Cop. That seems like a bit of a bad modding choice right? Now take a second to realize Discord isn’t a part of the site, and does it now seem clearer why using that to upend speculation would be such a no-go?

I don’t think the first is a bit of a bastard modding choice. Setups (even normals) do this all the time. If told the setup included no cops but included a PT cop or gunsmith or investigative that seems fine to me even though they are usually functionally the same. Rules are meant to be taken literally and this is the same issue I have with Warehouse 13. The moment you expect players to understand what you’re saying versus just saying it it’s a bad idea.

The discord part would be a bit more bastard though because a discord isn’t in the normal list.

I get extremely paranoid of how people take things and the drop a misleading setup spec idea is a common trick of my scum play so I am hyper vigilant for it.

I apologize if I seem like I was accusing Tris of bastard modding and I mean nothing of the sort.

[MathBlade]

You know that this setup possesses both a role that can determine whether a player is aligned with the Council of Calculasia and a role that can determine other players' effective role. These roles may be possessed by a single player or by multiple players, and they may or may not be modified.

This is what I was informed of In Calculasia word.
Given our roles this is essentially two cops since our effective roles were guilties.

So practical example from a recent game

[MathBlade]

Look there may be issues where I get too paranoid
Where something is wrong and I accept that because I am an odd ball player

When I was a loyal motion detector with Grendel I got a result that seemed to confirm Grendel scum
But we talked it out and realized it wasn’t and went back and elimmed Titus and she flipped scum

In Undertale Mafia I found the only goddamn scum in a game of 20+ because of this paranoia. It fell apart afterward because I spent all my emotional energy getting the elim and I trusted practically no one because of how hard I had to fuckin beg.

Yeah I may be weird and sometimes my theories are wrong but I will never ever apologize for doing so when if I am wrong I can be corrected and there is literally no harm done.

So I always do theorize about what the actual minimum we know is and work from truth because it’s what we know.

Yeah I am the fuckin weirdo but I am your safety net. My experience with all sorts of setups makes me alert for things other players miss.

I may have Charisma as my freakin dump stat but I am working on it.

Now, do you scumread me? Bring it back to something content related.

[MathBlade]

i can see my tone seeming like that, but that is just How I Talk and if this game turns into me having to dig ten billion meta examples of me Talking Like That i am gonna scream. though i'm not sure how you remembering

a more paranoid datisi makes you ease up on that read?

and sorry, what question was i avoiding there?

The more paranoid/offset Datisi was my original "This post to MathBlade is weird?"

The paranoid/offset Datisi kicks in the opposite direction when he is more concerned about my alignment/SvS wagons than afraid of me.

The more I think about this, the better I feel about it. I think a scum Datisi does not have a very good time upon seeing me replace-in, and that pressure would weigh a lot more heavily than it did on him here.

Does anyone disagree with Datisi-town here?

I am good with Datisi Town going to have to catch up with his responses after work. I think his logic/reads/tells are flawed but I don’t think he’s scum for it.

[MathBlade]

There’s a lot of reasons why but there’s certain things I find mid level scum don’t do because it would be harder of themselves. If Titus made post 512 it’s NAI but I haven’t seen Datisi do a Titus level scum game.

There’s also Star Wars reasons but you’ll see it on read. That’s all I should say there.

[MathBlade]

last few posts are pretty bad. Gamma's played with me enough to know that I'm top tier scum so if Gamma genuinely thought I was scum I think he'd go back and make a genuine case. I'm going to stick with town for now, but that read is degrading fast.

I’m not quite certain you’re scum, I just think your theory crafting is off base in a way that indicates you have low expectations for the quality of tris’ modding, and imo there’s no reason for you to feel that way

1) Poking a setup of which I believe to still be within the normal rules is not an attack on the quality of Tris’s modding. The entire point was I thought this was going to be similar to extra communication mafia and subvert expectations.

2) I literally just got done with a game where the mods gave town way too much power. The literal name of the game with the past few games I have been in is subvert expectations. It was in Calculasia and Boonskiies to name a few.

3) I have never been in a tris game before and not giving scum a PT imho is a brilliant setup design plan. I do not consider it “not mafia” as the mod said.

I think this post is disgusting as fuck here. Like you seriously make up crap about me not having scumread Chaos and now you’re poking at a bear long since dead? Are you trying to piss me off here? It’s working.

It's not disgusting as fuck to call out someone's theory you find ridiculous.

@Gamma, Math tends to be more like this as town.

It’s not that he’s calling out the theory it’s that he is implying I am attacking the mod that’s disgusting.

[MathBlade]

It’s not that he’s calling out the theory it’s that he is implying I am attacking the mod that’s disgusting.

Yes, take a moment to see his perspective. You're posting something so bizarre and ridiculous that no competent mod would pass as normal. By suggesting it, you're suggesting that tris is not a competent mod. I think there's a few gaps in reasoning but it's not disgusting.

Ugh I just really need to stop posting.

Can you go steal me some scum? Right now you are kinda scattershot and it’s hard to focus when you are.

[MathBlade]

It’s not that he’s calling out the theory it’s that he is implying I am attacking the mod that’s disgusting.

Yes, take a moment to see his perspective. You're posting something so bizarre and ridiculous that no competent mod would pass as normal. By suggesting it, you're suggesting that tris is not a competent mod. I think there's a few gaps in reasoning but it's not disgusting.

Ugh I just really need to stop posting.

Can you go steal me some scum? Right now you are kinda scattershot and it’s hard to focus when you are.

I'm assembling the team. I can determine the mark if I must but that's not really my thing.

Not asking for you to find the right recipe just clean up the damn kitchen of all the noise so I can Sophie easier. You asked me to do something that’s almost impossible while not misleading Town. Don’t make it harder for me.

If you don’t understand ignore this and I will move on.

[MathBlade]

Alright that’s a hell of a lot easier than what I thought you were asking of me.

[MathBlade]

Alright that’s a hell of a lot easier than what I thought you were asking of me.

Sophie was never always right. She just played well with others. Trust me that your Gamma fight, even if I am wrong, is a pride fight that gets nowhere.

Who do you think I should focus on?

Meg and Chaos. They’re the main topics before the Prism replacement and I haven’t had a chance to see much after their replace in. If Meg and chaos are no longer too wagons then on the top wagons to see how they’re composed.

[MathBlade]

I don’t know.

The reason T3 is in the town block is because Star Wars.
If Star Wars didn’t happen then we’d be looking at a different game.

I know this is a shit answer but I think it’s the best I can do.

[MathBlade]

I don’t know.

The reason T3 is in the town block is because Star Wars.
If Star Wars didn’t happen then we’d be looking at a different game.

I know this is a shit answer but I think it’s the best I can do.

T3 is not in because Star Wars

I am the person who defined Star Wars and in my townreads T3 is definitely in because Star Wars.

[MathBlade]

T3 is Townie in my book as well. Annoying but Townie.

I just can’t say what but needed an indicator so I used it.

[MathBlade]

I don't see any reason why not to E-1 Flubber.

VOTE: T3

Policy til I am caught up.

Threatening to E-1 when a replacement comes in and denying town a chance to read me is scummy AF

The closest thing that ever came to a push was this. I do not like having E-1 or hammer threatened while I am still playing and there is plenty of time left.

[MathBlade]

Let me try explaining how ridiculous your question is to me:

Let’s say you’ve been playing a table top role playing game.
Throughout the game you’ve been told Wolf is the big bad.

Then someone says but what if 4 days ago I told you that Wolf was no where near the murder scene.

Do you still RP now as if wolf is the big bad?

You can’t expect me to go “well what if not X” happened?

There’s like nothing to go off of.

[MathBlade]

I know I said I would catch up on the rest after work but tbh I am just not feeling this atm. I will see if I do later tonight.

[MathBlade]

[[Other line about my entrance not making sense]

610 was posted 9 minutes before Prism's post.

It feels like Prism is stating that it is unthinkable that we are even considering Meg as an elimination option due to 610.

This is silly because

1) 610 was just posted - nobody even has had a chance to respond to it.
2) Prism has just replaced in and has no idea why we are voting Meg nor a real read on her.

There is an edge here that feels like an agenda to me. I don't think Town!Prism would enter the thread with this much certainty.

There are multiple reasons to pursue a snapread,: First, replacements are incredibly annoying as scum an my entrance immediately puts pressure to justify things that otherwise get left for free, and this should be capitalized on immediately. Second, it being very fast does not mean it is not a real read, and these snapreads have been increasingly useful to me over the last calendar year even if the initial accuracy varies by caliber of player.

The more urgent concern was T3 threatening a hammer on a townread.

When you unvote it becomes e-2 so the hammer is not an issue.

You can simply ask us to hold up for 2-3 days in order to give you time to reread the thread

Inmediately snapreading off one post the consensus lead wagon and using 610/megs relative inexperience to say she shouldnt be even on the table reads as very manipulative to me esp if you haven't even read the game.

Are we talking about the same Prism?

Prism is pretty much snap decisions.

In warehouse 13 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85923&user_select%5B%5D=26507

They came up with a horrible decision to try to confirm themselves and randomly have an artifact to scum.

Secondly I prefer seeing reactions from a cold read as interactive thoughts. Given time scum can usually prepare a care and sound better than they should.

This is the second time you’ve said someone should read the game before commenting. As a serial replace in player odds are that is actually more detrimental to town. More often than not people have a negative bias towards replacements in general. It’s much more important to show you’re town versus tell it. I don’t like how you’ve been focused on almost exclusively Prism from what I have seen in the game.

I am also not buying your team either. We have two wagons forming on Meg and Chaos. Why are you so focused on Prism? I don’t understand it.

[MathBlade]

Let me try explaining how ridiculous your question is to me:

Let’s say you’ve been playing a table top role playing game.
Throughout the game you’ve been told Wolf is the big bad.

Then someone says but what if 4 days ago I told you that Wolf was no where near the murder scene.

Do you still RP now as if wolf is the big bad?

You can’t expect me to go “well what if not X” happened?

There’s like nothing to go off of.

Dude what’s with the sudden anger???

1) That wasn’t anger, my prior posts were. I use repetition and caps to signify anger.

I do still think the question is ridiculous. I don’t get why you inserted a push that doesn’t exist.

How about we just talk other people?

[MathBlade]

Let me try explaining how ridiculous your question is to me:

Let’s say you’ve been playing a table top role playing game.
Throughout the game you’ve been told Wolf is the big bad.

Then someone says but what if 4 days ago I told you that Wolf was no where near the murder scene.

Do you still RP now as if wolf is the big bad?

You can’t expect me to go “well what if not X” happened?

There’s like nothing to go off of.

Dude what’s with the sudden anger???

1) That wasn’t anger, my prior posts were. I use repetition and caps to signify anger.

I do still think the question is ridiculous. I don’t get why you inserted a push that doesn’t exist.

How about we just talk to other people?

Ebwop

[MathBlade]

Have you played with me before?

I ask you this not to hunt you but to know how to explain something to you.

[MathBlade]

Simple yes or no works I don’t need elaboration here Ari

[MathBlade]

Seems like you know that game and quite possibly me then. Prism cannot and does not deep wolf with both me and Titus alive. It just doesn’t happen. Prism and I well, to put it mildly, play the game of mafia quite differently so I am always prone to re-evaluate them.

Because I am more of a loose cannon if Prism is scum then they cannot predict what I will do. Prism has to buddy me to survive which I get paranoid of. I am constantly re-evaluating slots like Titus and Prism that have the ability to deep scum.

If either of them want to win they can’t go the standard thread dom way because I will sniff that shit a mile away.

Right now though what you’re doing is really anti town here imho. I get you think Prism is scum, but no one else is interacting here. It’s been pages of both of you back and forth here.

This is a team game (much as sometimes I suck at it and you can probably find examples of me being a lot worse).
Let the thread breathe a bit.

Prism when town and Titus when town are some of the best players on site. I like catching them especially Titus by being “weird” or “non standard” plays. Let’s see what they develop.

[MathBlade]

Have you played with me before?

I ask you this not to hunt you but to know how to explain something to you.

Let's keep things small. I don't trust Ari enough. Telephone like that requires at least a sense of how to communicate on an individual level.

It works for us sometimes because we're us.

Here, you got two levels of telephone plus with me not telling you everything.

I am not trusting Ari with the thing I think we saw.

I am trying to not have the thread be a bicker fight that is counter productive to Ari’s and Prism’s cases.

Beyond a certain threshold, people just stop reading they do.

It’s a tactic I have employed myself in the past.

Assuming Prism scum I want Ari’s arguments to be effective and assuming Prism town I want to give them a chance to breathe and do what they are good at.

[MathBlade]

sure I'll shut up about it and we'll see who was right when the game is over.

I am not saying shut up all game. Just a tiny breather.

Just if Prism is scum give them a chance to fall on their sword and give them a chance to maybe out a buddy in the process. Each piece with Prism and Titus is like a chessboard. You have to identify if they are scum then think ahead. A simple wall fight with some players is very antitown

[MathBlade]

MathBlade, you has my shiny scum suspect.

I know a scummy vote when I see one.

Sorry just a second must a missed it I am still trying to catch up.

[MathBlade]

Okay help me out here…I am so not following the moonlogic?

What made you go back to look at votes/Vulture again?

[MathBlade]

(I don’t mean that in a bad way just I don’t see how you’re getting there)

[MathBlade]

Prism having Vulture as a TR is worrying NGL.

Not really. I don’t get how they formulate reads I just know they’re better than mine same with you sometimes.

Vultures in my PoE so I would sheep but I think Meg or Chaos are much more likely to draw scum.

[MathBlade]

Fair enough I did ask.

VOTE: Vulture

Baaaaaaah I am Math!sheep hear me sheep sheep

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Alch

Alch wagon?

We all agree there?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Vulture

I have to go to bed early tonight.

I am not going to be able to finish catching up

[MathBlade]

Maybe there’s more to it in the Titus and Math back and forth that I have chosen not to read because it feels like it’s insular and beneficial to only them, but man, not like I have too much faith in any read that generates from there anyways.

This is why I said don’t meta me.

You can literally build a case that I do almost anything as scum. Some games I manipulate people socially like Boonskiies and Calculasia. Some games I just lurk (well lurk by my standards) like in Werewolf is Mafia. Others I am town leader like Gistou.

You can literally build a case that I do almost anything as town. I manipulate people 992 are you my partner.
Vibe with people and use that in seemingly a scummy way to defend a town read: Charge Me Up
Town leader: Raw Unfiltered UPick

If you have an opinion one way or another about me, you can and will succeed in making a meta case about it because I work damn hard in making sure that I don’t have trust tells so you have to read me in the game we are in.

It’s why I never engaged in T3’s incorrect meta here. I am not a “lurk/passive” unless I think it benefits my alignment. T3’s perception still helps them to read me so I just let it go.

This on the other hand doesn’t look like an attempt to read but an attempt to shade. Yes I buddied Titus hard in that game. There’s also Warehouse 13 where I reached out to her so hard about SirCakez it frustrated me to no end. SirCakez is one of the few players I “just get”.

If you’re going to go down a meta case you have to at least follow it up here.

And if you think I did what I did with Titus JUST for Titus you’re sorely mistaken. There are some things that are just too anti town to say so I have to avoid answering the question. So I always try to answer it as best I can to the person who asks.

[MathBlade]

I'm going to work and hopefully return to a pleasant/diplomatic state. I know Titus asked about my Vulture TR, tl;dr they do this stupid fucking deadweight act every game and live to take shots & feel superior when someone actually plays the game and pushes them for it. Horrendous fucking play and maybe they're worth a policy but I think they're town.

Absolutely not.

Titus is 100% not worth a policy this game. And yeah she pokes at things that she doesn’t agree with but that’s what literally everyone does. She’s just blunt about it.

If you’re talking policy D1 your head is not in the game.

[MathBlade]

I hate if I was scum, why wouldn't I do X arguments? It's a question that's really a way for people to defend themselves without actually being townie. There's so many reasons why people do something. It's not like scum are going to say "yes you got me" to any response anyway.

It’s an attempt to get you to use more than two braincells on my motivations as scum v town and why the scum ones don’t hold weight. Which if you want to call it a defense, sure, but it’s more a commentary on how shortsighted of an analysis you did.

But then again I’ve genuinely never seen you apply correct VCA as long as I’ve been around and only seen it used to help scum so my faith is little.

This is really encouraging me to look elsewhere. [/sarcasm]

It's fair enough to say that you aren't lockscum based on my VCA alone. You're just my biggest suspect. I'm townreading all but you and Chaos on that wagon. Your ISO lacks content. So does Chaos. Chaos is VLA.

What's your excuse?

Why do you have a VCA when you say you can’t do VCA without flips?

[MathBlade]

That's about Vulture, MathBlade

Last line is still true.

[MathBlade]

I'm super disengaged but I think Prism v Ari is tvt.

VOTE: vult
I'll sheep.

Who are you sheeping here?

Neither Prism nor Ari are voting for vulture atm.

???? voting for Vulture.

What was that supposed to say?

[MathBlade]

Aristeia if you're that worried about me pacing the game/controlling the thread you fucking try instead.

I've been told to shut up by Mathblade/Others and let the thread breath so I'm fine twiddling my thumbs over here.

I've already stated what I believe the solution to be and people have stopped listening to me.

I care more about everyone having "fun" than maximizing my probability of winning.

I said let the thread breathe and see what develops. The thread is breathing now and people are talking. It’s back to a healthy discourse

Did you see anything that strengthens your case?
Did you see anything that weakens it?

[MathBlade]

I hate if I was scum, why wouldn't I do X arguments? It's a question that's really a way for people to defend themselves without actually being townie. There's so many reasons why people do something. It's not like scum are going to say "yes you got me" to any response anyway.

It’s an attempt to get you to use more than two braincells on my motivations as scum v town and why the scum ones don’t hold weight. Which if you want to call it a defense, sure, but it’s more a commentary on how shortsighted of an analysis you did.

But then again I’ve genuinely never seen you apply correct VCA as long as I’ve been around and only seen it used to help scum so my faith is little.

This is really encouraging me to look elsewhere. [/sarcasm]

It's fair enough to say that you aren't lockscum based on my VCA alone. You're just my biggest suspect. I'm townreading all but you and Chaos on that wagon. Your ISO lacks content. So does Chaos. Chaos is VLA.

What's your excuse?

Why do you have a VCA when you say you can’t do VCA without flips?

I gave up on telling people it's wagon momentum instead of VCA. They would just say it's VCA. So I give up half the time.

VOTE: Unvote

Nope. I am now sketched out. You are hyper literal like me. I do not buy this. I am reevaluating you later today to see if this is a new meta thing or you’re scum.

[MathBlade]

I've literally stated a complete solve I don't know what else you want me to do.

What if you swapped Prism for Titus? I think that’s more likely how she scumreads Alchemist yet she wanted the Vulture wagon.

[MathBlade]

What if you swapped Prism for Titus? I think that’s more likely how she scumreads Alchemist yet she wanted the Vulture wagon.

Titus is too random to be scum in my opinion.

Hmmm that is a good point and why I initially townread her.

VOTE: Vulture

Guess I was just paranoid.

[MathBlade]

I think Prism's read of Vulture is accurate regardless of Prism's alignment.

GREAT

SO MAYBE

ACTUALLY GO TO BAT FOR IT, OR LET ME WITHOUT CRYING

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST POOKY

First off they’re probably not Pooky

Second off stop outing alts if you think that’s who they are

How confident are Meg/Alch scum to you Ari?

[MathBlade]

Ugh I need another VC. Like it’s getting to the point where any of Chaos/Meg/Vulture are okay to me. They’re all in my PoE and I am getting to the point of I just want a flip to sort out people.

[MathBlade]

You know what fuck it.

VOTE: Meg

[MathBlade]

Ugh I need another VC. Like it’s getting to the point where any of Chaos/Meg/Vulture are okay to me. They’re all in my PoE and I am getting to the point of I just want a flip to sort out people.

You're voting the towniest one.

I kinda feel like if you’re town you’re wrong based on the last few pages and if you’re scum you’re buddying me.

Meg on the other hand I can use to check the Ari slot. Pretty much their entire useful ISO started only after I poked her. I think she is wrong on Prism and Meg to me is the scummier of the two.

If Meg flips scum then Prism is probably scum and I was wrong and I eat crow.

If Meg flips town though then I am likely right on my Prism read and with the lack of interaction/desire to hunt Ari goes down in my scum pool.

Pretty much I am using it as a check on her since she ignored the how confident are you question. Pretty much all my townreads are split on three wagons. If we don’t start consolidating we aren’t going to have a main town group and that’s going to be pretty damaging.

[MathBlade]

Correction: You see the town core.

I have townreads that are all bickering with each other to the point where game investment is hitting a low.

And yes one flip method can sometimes fail. But I think it’s good enough for now to get a sense on Ari since she’s not interacting with a good chunk of the game. If she was interacting with a majority of the game it doesn’t hold.

She says she has her solve and in essence went back to the “clocked out” mentality she had earlier minus the gifs.

If Meg doesn’t flip scum she’s likely never been hunting to begin with and views Prism as a threat vs an actual read.

[MathBlade]

@Chaos >> I post like that so people can see my thought process in real time. The lack of vote movement on you is where my scumread of you comes from. Combine that with scumreading Alch and a tentative team formed. You were pinging me based off the gamestate where I started. So yes you hadn’t posted but that’s not why you were being scumread.

[MathBlade]

Hey my stomach feels like shit. Not in the mood to read everything posted and will catch up later maybe.

Did anyone ask me a question or anything?

[MathBlade]

Hey my stomach feels like shit. Not in the mood to read everything posted and will catch up later maybe.

Did anyone ask me a question or anything?

As long as you are okay with Meg being at e-1, with an intent to hammer in place, I think you are good.

If you have a problem with that, now is really the only time to speak up (please no)

Still good with it as I think her elim will help solve some things.

[MathBlade]

Why do you think a lot of naked votes happened start of today versus discussion of the flip?
I expect RVS d1 not D2.

I get that everyone here is mentioned as possible scum EoD yesterday but I don’t like the naked votes and I don’t like how weird that kill is. Going to be ISOing T3

[MathBlade]

Why do you think a lot of naked votes happened start of today versus discussion of the flip?
I expect RVS d1 not D2.

I get that everyone here is mentioned as possible scum EoD yesterday but I don’t like the naked votes and I don’t like how weird that kill is. Going to be ISOing T3

Everyone who was here agreed T3 was Town after they metadived Datisi, so the kill isn’t really surprising because they were never going to be destroyed.

I can see that but a lot of people were in the town block. I kinda wanna get a look at why T3 and start there.

Something feels off about the lots of naked votes and such.

I am going to be ISOing and stepping back a bit.

Something doesn’t feel right.

[MathBlade]

Why do you think a lot of naked votes happened start of today versus discussion of the flip?
I expect RVS d1 not D2.

I get that everyone here is mentioned as possible scum EoD yesterday but I don’t like the naked votes and I don’t like how weird that kill is. Going to be ISOing T3

Chaos was in my top two scummiest players list day 1, so now they are #1 on that list, so my vote has moved back. Chaos has not really done anything to change that opinion since I voiced it before. I would not call that an RVS vote.

As for T3, I think that surprisingly, he was the most widely town read player in the game Day 1. I had all but town locked him over his dats meta dive.

Why do you think that T3 was a strange kill?

I don’t think I should say more than that what I said above but the kill seems extremely suboptimal unless hijinks are happening.

[MathBlade]

Here:

So I think what I thought was going on is not going on and is something completely different that doesn't involve this game at all.

You thought it had importance once, now let the rest of us decide.

It will become clear later.

How much longer is later exactly?

After some flips.

I don’t like this answer. You were wrong about what you saw but you still won’t explain what you were thinking this Day phase?

VOTE: T3

jBasically, I either am a role that Gamma mentioned, or am a role that implies one of the roles Gamma mentioned, or I know by some mechanism through other players breadcrumbing or me being informed at the start. I thought Gamma was breadcrumbing or something of the sort, so I wanted to give him indication I was aware of what he was talking about. I then flipped to the next page and found a completely different explanation than what I was expecting.
k?

Yeah I saw that.

Still doesn’t make sense because of thing antitown to say

[MathBlade]

I feel kind of lost...

that is a very strange nightkill and I feel it means I've been pocketed badly :<

What did you do after Meg flipped town?

[MathBlade]

I feel kind of lost...

that is a very strange nightkill and I feel it means I've been pocketed badly :<

What did you do after Meg flipped town?

What did you do?

Took a hard look at Ari overnight. Couldn’t understand the townreads on her slot and so I went and ISO’d her to see what I could see. The fact she has the same response to me at day start is troubling so I want to know what she did overnight and why our thoughts are similar after being divergent yesterday. It’s odd.

[MathBlade]

Fair. I was referring specifically to the T3 being dead.

I really don’t like the fact me and a top scumread are both thinking it’s a weird kill so maybe it’s just not?

I usually use NKA to hunt and so today seems like a continuation of yesterday in a weird way.

Between that and lots of naked unexplained votes this has me worried I am missing some vital clues somewhere.

[MathBlade]

Looks like you’re playing the game through Datisi versus having your own reads.

I don't think being deferential towards people whom you hold a high opinion of is a bad thing.

Mafia games tend to be more ego-driven, I like to be carried by people I trust.

It's just the way I am.

Like take here for example. Here Ari says she likes to be carried, but then later she says she has a solve of Prism Meg Alch and won’t deviate and getting her to talk any slots is very difficult.

It’s a stark contrast and I don’t see how both versions are the same slot in the same game.

By asking her what she did overnight I am hoping to get a sense of her and what she is doing and if my scumread on her is correct or if it’s not and I am just in la la land apparently.

[MathBlade]

I really don’t like the fact me and a top scumread are both thinking it’s a weird kill so maybe it’s just not?

Similar thoughts tend to be similar alignments.

It's early. Let the factions show.

I am trying to do that by generating discussion. Lots of naked votes doesn’t really help me see much here. Even my traditional way of reading naked votes leads to an absolutely absurd conclusion so I am trying to generate discussion so as you say “the factions show”. How does anyone learn anything from this?

[MathBlade]

I really don’t like the fact me and a top scumread are both thinking it’s a weird kill so maybe it’s just not?

Similar thoughts tend to be similar alignments.

It's early. Let the factions show.

I am trying to do that by generating discussion. Lots of naked votes doesn’t really help me see much here. Even my traditional way of reading naked votes leads to an absolutely absurd conclusion so I am trying to generate discussion so as you say “the factions show”. How does anyone learn anything from this?

Okay I have learned the amount of Leverage gifs you have is insane and I have no earthly idea what you’re trying to say lmao. I think Eliot’s face is the closest to mine right now.

[MathBlade]

Okay I have learned the amount of Leverage gifs you have is insane and I have no earthly idea what you’re trying to say lmao. I think Eliot’s face is the closest to mine right now.

That's the point.

giphy.com

Your point is to entirely confuse me and not have me hunt?

The first part is a success the latter won’t happen so????

Like what?

[MathBlade]

I feel pretty strongly that you are town Titus, but I have no idea what you are trying to say right now

Or for a good chunk of Day 1 with all of the star wars talk.

Like, I look at your posts and think "I don't know what this means, but I think that it is town"

Star Wars was mostly me saying I couldn’t say T3 was a townread due to the section that shouldn’t be named because reasons. Anyone who followed my catch-up should notice I deliberately omitted that section. And I still won’t rank my townreads in order.

[MathBlade]

I don’t know.

The reason T3 is in the town block is because Star Wars.
If Star Wars didn’t happen then we’d be looking at a different game.

I know this is a shit answer but I think it’s the best I can do.

This here. I literally couldn’t answer because it was predicated on that section and if I give my opinion on said section it’s anti town. So Star Wars.

[MathBlade]

Okay I have learned the amount of Leverage gifs you have is insane and I have no earthly idea what you’re trying to say lmao. I think Eliot’s face is the closest to mine right now.

That's the point.

giphy.com

Your point is to entirely confuse me and not have me hunt?

The first part is a success the latter won’t happen so????

Like what?

No. The point is a love your surly butt and it's going to come together as expected.

*smiles*

The point is “a love your surly butt”?

That doesn’t even make grammatical sense and we’re family so I am going to ignore this.

Glad you have a plan then.

Until someone talks with me with words I am going to hunt because I am pretty sure I am literally incapable of understanding this.

[MathBlade]

Oh look I'm getting wagoned. I could jump on Chaos if it's him or me but I haven't seen any good reason to suspect him aside from "read this other game to see his meta" which I'm just not going to do.

I really don’t like the fact me and a top scumread are both thinking it’s a weird kill so maybe it’s just not?

This is a very weird line of thought. Why on earth would someone else thinking it's a weird kill mean it isn't one, scumread or not? What exactly is the connection here?

Agreeing with a scumread is a sign something is either wrong with your scumread or you’re a pocket/set up to be pocketed/or it’s an agreement to get you to think otherwise.

What are your thoughts about the game so far? Any reads?

[MathBlade]

It's a typo.
I love your surly butt. (Like a brother.)

Great! Then talk with me and don’t play charades.

[MathBlade]

It's a typo.
I love your surly butt. (Like a brother.)

Great! Then talk with me and don’t play charades.

But Charades is how I talk about Star Wars.

Then change the channel?

There’s a lot of players left alive and lots of topics to talk about.

Approximately half the game has a naked vote somewhere. Does this mean something to you?

[MathBlade]

Chaos (2): Alchemist21 1176, Lukewarm 1177
Umlaut (2): ChaosOmega 1179, Datisi 1182, Gamma, Titus

not voting: Vulture, Umlaut, MathBlade, Aristeia, Not_Mafia

Now assume me and Ari are town like you’re implying.

Premise 1: Me + Ari are town.
Premise 2: There are likely 3 scum.
Premise 3: Excluding me and Ari the only non voters are Vulture, Umlaut, and Not Mafia.

Conclusion: Either the team is exactly Vulture Umlaut Not Mafia
Or
There is a scum in the naked voters
Or
A prior assumption Ari is town is wrong (technically the assumption I am town falls here but I know I am town so I am hand waving that away).

I am pretty sure in my Prism townread so I think there’s scum in the naked voters.

If there’s scum in the naked voters it becomes a matter of which wagon and why.

So I have a lot of premises built up and I am looking to figure out which premises are true.

Trying to play interpret the gif sucks.

Pedit: If this wagon situation wasn’t here you.
I may not understand what is going on but I don’t want to derail it until I find if there’s scum on it.

[MathBlade]

MB who would you like to vote for?

Are you going to answer my question?

[MathBlade]

I feel kind of lost...

that is a very strange nightkill and I feel it means I've been pocketed badly :<

What did you do after Meg flipped town?

@Ari >> This one. I want inside your head after your solution earlier was proven wrong. You said you had a solution, now it’s wrong. If you’re town I would expect adjustment. What did you do?

[MathBlade]

Approximately half the game has a naked vote somewhere. Does this mean something to you?

Yes. We've joined a streaker's convention.

Making me laugh is not helpful but you should probably put some pants on.

[MathBlade]

Mostly cried and had paranoid thoughts about Datisi being a scumbag who's playing with my heart.

Why Datisi? What did you do to see if these paranoid thoughts are correct or not?

I am trying to see your thought process from overnight where your reads where to seeing the flip to now and getting where your reads are now. I want to see that progression.

[MathBlade]

Give me a reason this isn’t TvT and you’re waiting on the sidelines
Or This has one or more scum buddies and you’re hoping it goes away.

Give me a reason you’re town here.
I don’t get what’s happening here either but I am hunting things. Asking questions.

What are you doing to figure out your reads?

Okay you suspect Datisi, why not pressure him? See if he responds or if someone defends him?

[MathBlade]

See here’s the situation I am in. People think you are X. I will not say whether I agree or not that you’re X as I believe that breaks the spirit of an alt. What I do know is that from this game there’s a quiet secretive player who’s not asking anything.

Do you have a game under this alt with a similar meta with you town?

Like I am trying to meet Titus half way here and I am just not seeing it and I am scared.

[MathBlade]

Mostly cried and had paranoid thoughts about Datisi being a scumbag who's playing with my heart.

I actually had a similar worry during the night phase

But, my thinking requires a confirmation in scum!chaos, so I was holding off voicing the concern until after a chaos flip

Or I guess, until it looked like chaos was gonna flip today.

Why were you thinking Chaos is gonna flip from a naked vote?

Why do you think scum Chaos implies scum Datisi?

[MathBlade]

It’s not about dropping an entire case it’s about dropping something.

I’ve played forum mafia a long time..like a very long time.

I have never seen this type of situation before. Ever.

Generally people do a bare minimum “Hey Chaos was scummy yesterday come vote Chaos.” Or flashback to an event or something.

6 people in a row is unheard of.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=12867026#p12867026

This is what I am referring to.

In this game for context, DGB guiltied nom.

Even if people pick up on it there is discussion.

Something here feels very artificial.

[MathBlade]

Like I am trying to meet Titus half way here and I am just not seeing it and I am scared.

Not the end of the world. I'm watching and observing right now. There's time left in the day. No rush to get in sync yet.

Don't overtunnel. Don't force opinions. Ask and listen, not just hear.

That’s what I am doing.

Notice how my questions are open ended?

I am stating open ended thoughts and getting discussion going.

How is any of this tunnelling?

[MathBlade]

See here’s the situation I am in. People think you are X. I will not say whether I agree or not that you’re X as I believe that breaks the spirit of an alt. What I do know is that from this game there’s a quiet secretive player who’s not asking anything.

Do you have a game under this alt with a similar meta with you town?

Like I am trying to meet Titus half way here and I am just not seeing it and I am scared.

You don't have to be scared of me dear.

I've only played one other game on this site and you can find it if you look at my topics.

Thanks. I think I have skimmed that game previously if it’s the one I am thinking of but will look at you specifically in depth.

Pedit: Uhm that’s a bad thing Titus. I never want to be untouchably town.

I learn from who tries to push me. I hate being conf town.

[MathBlade]

I can be absolute shit sometimes and the last thing I want is “oh let’s sheep Math”. I am better than rand on townreads but swingy as fuck on scum and I want things to be collaborative rather than confs because then people just sheep the confs all day and clock out

[MathBlade]

I feel like I was asked a question, and I put a ~lot~ of effort into answering it, and then 3 people just breezed past it, including the person who asked me in the first place

I did not breeze by it.

You answered a question but not the question I wanted answered then took it literally and realized you answered it literally. I was asking more of a “what makes you think votes without explanations are convincing” and got a big long wall case. So the problem was how I asked it.

I don’t have enough time to read a wall as I have to do chores but I can rapid fire post while I do chores so asking questions like this is easier. It will get a better response later

[MathBlade]

Sorry about yesterday.

What are you sorry for?

[MathBlade]

Pedit: Uhm that’s a bad thing Titus. I never want to be untouchably town.

I learn from who tries to push me. I hate being conf town.

To get better, we have to push our limits. I wouldn't try to make you into obvtown unless I had a reason.

I feel like I was asked a question, and I put a ~lot~ of effort into answering it, and then 3 people just breezed past it, including the person who asked me in the first place

I did not breeze by it.

You answered a question but not the question I wanted answered then took it literally and realized you answered it literally. I was asking more of a “what makes you think votes without explanations are convincing” and got a big long wall case. So the problem was how I asked it.

I don’t have enough time to read a wall as I have to do chores but I can rapid fire post while I do chores so asking questions like this is easier. It will get a better response later

The answer I felt like was breezed past, was the answer to this question

Why do you think scum Chaos implies scum Datisi?

But if you are skipping the walls, then that makes sense

@Titus: Or just no? It makes the game really hard when I am conf town because then I become buddy food. I get you may have a reason. You may have some special Math tell that’s 100% accurate (as much as I try to avoid that) or even mod conf from a PR, I legit do not care. Conf towns poison games. You learn more seeing what scum push against the uber secret town block than confirming anyone. A well place inno or guilty makes the game go around.

I really don’t like how you’re making this into a binary thing and I am trying to hunt a reaction here and now it’s destroyed.

@Luke again I apologize I will read it Sunday.

[MathBlade]

Like more than just a vote on a wagon.

How so?

[MathBlade]

@Titus: Or just no? It makes the game really hard when I am conf town because then I become buddy food. I get you may have a reason. You may have some special Math tell that’s 100% accurate (as much as I try to avoid that) or even mod conf from a PR, I legit do not care. Conf towns poison games. You learn more seeing what scum push against the uber secret town block than confirming anyone. A well place inno or guilty makes the game go around.

I really don’t like how you’re making this into a binary thing and I am trying to hunt a reaction here and now it’s destroyed.

A good conftown doesn't poison a game. Still, I don't want or think you're conftown. I just want you untouchable by elimination.

Sorry about fucking with your test.

Explain the difference here because I don’t see it.

I haven’t been scumread almost all game if at all.
What would your plan do? Just more of the same? Then why?

[MathBlade]

Like more than just a vote on a wagon.

How so?

VOTE: Vulture

I reject binaries and substitute my own.

This over apologetic ness is a super old scum tell. I wanna see how Vulture is sorry.

[MathBlade]

Explain the difference here because I don’t see it.

I haven’t been scumread almost all game if at all.
What would your plan do? Just more of the same? Then why?

A conftown is someone who is mechanically confirmed as town. An obvtown is someone who won't be eliminate but still could be scum. For instance, Datisi fits in that boat.

I can't answer what my plan would do because that would undermine my plan. Aside from carrying through my theory about polishing you, I don't currently have a plan for this dayphase.

Great pretend I am pretty damn near sparkling then and move on.

I think I have had like 0 votes all game maybe.

Just consider it done til it’s not.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Chaos

Why are you just now voting Chaos?

Math is weirded out by naked votes at the start of this day but I’m weirded out with people that waited and then voted for seemingly no reason. So far it’s been Titus and Ari, and both times came right after a vote count.

I consider all six at the start of the day.

I am seeing what happens with Ari’s vote I am just happy it’s something.

[MathBlade]

umlaut is scum, and the fact that there hasn't been an intent on him yet is very sad

anyway. i don't think i've ever seen titus use gifs before, so page 49 is weird to me. not scummy, just weird. lol.

1224 is bad. you'd think townlaut would, after a 4 day night, knowing he's done jack shit and will be suspected, at least have something to enter the game with? instead he's nitpicking something math said? nah

Mostly cried and had paranoid thoughts about Datisi being a scumbag who's playing with my heart.

why? i hate being the one to say "why me", but you've given no indication that you thought i was scummy, other than "i'm throwing out all my reads" i guess, and even then that doesn't explain why you jump directly onto the possibility of me being scum, as opposed to. anyone else.

i'm getting townie pings on mathblade from the was he entered this dayphase and is trying to brute force sort out what is happening. anyone with more experience with him wanna tell me if this is likely to come from scum!him?

Umlaut is a lurker. Why would he already be at intent? At the end of D1, a lot of people were spamming conditional reads on Umlaut assuming the alignment of others. How do you get from there to “Umlaut is scum zero discussion let’s gooooooo” and not only that a lot of people joined so far. Don’t get me wrong and this is no defense and I don’t mind moving on but if Umlaut is scum I would rather force him to give content here. The more you force a scum to talk the more content you get.

Datisi let me save you the trouble on the scum me question. Scum me and town me have similar metas I strive for it. I am good scum and can be the top town read in a 40p game. I am working on making my town game good. I brute sort as scum and town. I have enough scum games on here the answer to “have I done X as scum” the answer is probably yes. I use my prior scum games to explain pitfalls to avoid. But I think asking a really good scum player such as myself what is more likely means you’re probably getting bitten in the butt with assumptions as probably almost every player here has seen different sides of my scum game and only a few have seen me decent town.

[MathBlade]

1224 reads to me like someone entirely uninterested in the game not scummy. Many many times I have seen completely disinterested town and scum make similar posts. Ari also did the same sort of uninterested hop in but yet you pick on Umlaut why? I have as scum taken advantage of disinterested town to get a quick elim. We just had wagonpalooza D1 and now 4 people are confident sans case?

That reads one of two things neither of which are protown to share yet. Regardless I think a scum in Chaos, Datisi, Gamma, and Titus is quite high regardless of which explanation I go down.

Premise A: (Secret premise)
If Premise A is true then scum likely think Premise A is true and therefore would vote Umlaut.
If Premise A is not true then scum likely think they may get a free elim by hopping on without discussion like everyone else.

[MathBlade]

It’s rather telling that 1224 is the first attempt to explain Umlaut scum rather than using D1 and that’s after unexplained votes appeared.

To those of you who are that sure Umlaut is scum, why not go look back and see what was scummy D1?

Make a case of it.

[MathBlade]

Not a fan of 1303. Just because her top townread of Gamma is on it she thinks the whole wagon is town and is balling angry tears? This seems over exaggerated.

I am going read Luke’s case now bbl.

[MathBlade]

Just skimmed Ari’s meta on the normal game first. (Yeah it looked simpler sue me)

VOTE: Chaos

Based on what I see there I am okay sheeping Ari while reading up Luke’s case

[MathBlade]

it was pretty obvious that t3 was trying to get out of having to say something about mech and i'm hmm at alchemist trying to force the issue >_>

i still wanna see the wall on my meta, though.

T3 clearly wasn’t saying anything mech related here. I think if Dat is scum then Alch is probably town.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: gamma

why is aristeia town?

Explain this vote please. I think this is probably the most damning point in the readwall. You seem to be okay with Gamma voting Umlaut now.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: gamma

why is aristeia town?

Explain this vote please. I think this is probably the most damning point in the readwall. You seem to be okay with Gamma voting Umlaut now.

It's a thousand posts later....

Then the explanation should be simple.

[MathBlade]

am i insane for thinking there is something Very Wrong about the fact that luke spent a lot of time yesterday pushing omega, then once he realized that's not happening, he was suddenly a firm believer in meg flipping red, brute forced the wagon through, then the person whose literally only strong read was "datisi is locktown" is dead, and *then* luke is back on omega while making a convoluted case on why i'm a partner when that case is half made up of literal lies and empty assumptions?

I see assumptions but what lies are present?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

I think everyone posting by tone here is town which makes me back to my absurd theory Chaos and Umlaut are both scum but I am not sure that’s supported by the thread movement.

Game night is tonight but I will re-read what you’ve asked Datisi.

I am still just wondering why Umlaut has so many voters when the case on Chaos has much more evidence.

Makes me think scum are manufacturing resistance somewhere. I just can’t see the strings.

[MathBlade]

How ridiculous on a scale of “I get it to” to “Math is so far in left field they built a new ballpark” are the following:

Chaos + Umlaut
Datisi + Umlaut
Chaos/Umlaut both town and lots of deep wolves?

I am thinking that these are the most likely worlds.

[MathBlade]

Ok I has my plan. Ready for day end.

Did you get what you needed from me?

Catching up now.

[MathBlade]

I’d be fine with that but I’d like him to post SOMETHING first
PEdit: mostly for what Datisi has said, you’ve been a non-factor and I think you tend to be uninvolved as scum

So much so I am thinking bus here.

Datisi and Gamma practically agree on a good chunk of points and they’re recycles of each other. I am pretty paranoid of someone on that wagon bussing Umlaut I think. I think Umlaur flips scum but the day feels icky. Like we’re being trapped by a super villain icky.

[MathBlade]

yeah, i know. but my argument isn't "umlaut inactive therefore umalut scum". it's "umlaut inactive, the rest of the gamestate/flips points at it being very likely that umlaut would be scum (based on what i know about him), therefore umlaut scum".

Hopefully I see an explanation for the “gamestate/flips points at that” closest I could see is people sussing Umlaut at eod then naked votes today. That makes me think bus or push on town.

[MathBlade]

now it's not only "does umlaut look similar to those two scumgames of his i modded", now it's also "do not give umlaut a pass for doing jackshit nothing and think he's town because ~scum!him would be doing more~, scum!him absolutely will do jackshit if he thinks he can get away with it"

Yeah, I kind of anticipated that, but thinking my being inactive (all of 48[?] hours into the game at that) explicitly makes me scum still doesn't fit when you know perfectly well I can be demotivated and useless as any alignment.

For some context, I only thought I could get away with it that time because it was clear from Day 1 that Icon was going to carry the game.

For that matter, I

did

get away with it that time because Icon

did

carry the game, so the real moral is "if Scumlaut is not making any effort to look towny it's because he knows he's already won"

Then I am going to take the time to see if I can get to where you are.

@Datisi >> Did a quick skim here of where you pushed Umlaut for inactivity and Umlaut was town. There seems to be a difference in tone here. This post also makes me nervous Umlaut wants to die.

Pedit: Maybe I did and I am running a long con on scum. Maybe I didn’t. All I will say on the crumbs.

[MathBlade]

Caught up again except for an overdue reread I owe Datisi but I kinda don’t wanna as it’s late.

This just feels like either a bus or something is very wrong here. I can’t explain it but I feel it.

[MathBlade]

This just feels like either a bus or something is very wrong here. I can’t explain it but I feel it.

Why are you Gibbs slapping me here for scumhunting?

Worst case scenario my paranoia is wrong and everyone laughs and says “Math sucks” and I am not given a chance to get better. Best case scenario my paranoia is wrong and scum sheep my wrongness and it helps find scum. Middle case scenario my paranoia is wrong and I learn from it while no one seems to be hunting.

Worse case scenario my paranoia is right and you’re shutting me down, Umlaut flips town, and we are in wtf mode as most people aren’t even hunting. Middle case scenario my paranoia is right, Umlaut flips scum and we have a tiny bit of reactions. Best case scenario we can figure out who is scum with Umlaut.

Why are you so determined to not let me ask questions and hunt with what seems to be deadspace? You asked me to be cooperative and loud and now you’re all “shut up” in gif form?

Help me out here this is some mixed messages.

[MathBlade]

I guess this kinda sums up my feelings atm:



The only difference I think this is more about the wagons than Umlaut’s innocence or guilt.

[MathBlade]

Like I get Datisi you and others may have some hybrid “synergy” thing going on but it’s too neat.

[MathBlade]

Where have you seen this pattern before? Votes, then dead thread.

That’s the thing.

I haven’t seen a pattern like the day open here.

A pattern of votes then dead thread is a game day?

Again you’re kinda missing my nuance here. Sometimes ignorant is smart.

[MathBlade]

*sigh*

Good night Titus.

[MathBlade]

@Datisi >> Did a quick skim here of where you pushed Umlaut for inactivity and Umlaut was town. There seems to be a difference in tone here. This post also makes me nervous Umlaut wants to die.

cool. for what it's worth, i could definitely see a world where umlaut is getting bussed here, i'm no way saying that i think his wagon is 100% pure. omega's contributions are still weak, and gamma's... fidgetiness around his wagon feels weird. (not saying i necessarily scumread these people, just saying that i can see them being partnered.) titus and aristeia feel town to me, though titus more so, i'm just not sure scum!aristeia would be playing around me like she is.

I don’t think you follow me here. I am wondering if how sure you and others are if you/those more sure are scum.

viewtopic.php?p=12745065#p12745065

ND Math was scum for context.

Sometimes sureity or fidetiness or weirdness can be town/scum cover and I want to know why you’re all “Hell no Umlaut isn’t getting away with lurking” and like in this game it’s like a “Hey we’re voting Unlaut and no where else” and it seems like a chill pill.

[MathBlade]

There is such a thing as “too sure” or “too confident” and that enters my scum radar

DkKoba (5): NDMath, Andante, Robert M Hunter, VFP, Save the Dragons ELIMINATION
NDMath (2): MathBlade, DkKoba

Not Voting (2): Flea the Magician, Yessiree

In this game NDMath claimed a guilty on Koba but it didn’t match the “flow” or “vibes”. (ND was scum) and the scumbuddy was on the wagon almost immediately after. Sometimes asking questions of those most sure is really a good thing.

I also hate that it looks like you’ve stopped hunting for any Umlaut partners.

[MathBlade]

Another way is to me you look more Townie if Umlaut flips town.
And I don’t want to elim you today but you are in my sus pool if Umlaut flips scum.

I don’t know if it’s enough to elim but you are sus.

[MathBlade]

The point is the “too sure” in tone.

I don’t have time to search my games for too sure on scum but I know I have seen it. I just think today is going to be a shit day at work and limited posting and I wanted to explain my thoughts.

[MathBlade]

Datisi and Titus fail to understand again *sigh*

Off to work for now.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Ari

Let's try this, I'm at least interested in it whereas I'm not so much in Chaos. I thought Ari was pretty town d1 but I can't hold onto that forever.

I just really find Ari's defense of me hard to credit and it gives me white-knighting vibes. Kind of starting to feel the same way about Math to be honest. It's probably a little weird to be consistently suspecting people for

not

trying to launch me but, well, here we are

Except I am trying to eliminate you? I am just trying to figure out if this is a setup or not. I am not saying to not elim you. I am saying get you to talk so you spew.

[MathBlade]

@MathBlade, You are claiming not to want Ari limmed. Who do you want eliminated? Why aren't you voting?

You suggest every elimination is wrong, yet you provide nothing.

I haven’t suggested every elimination is wrong.

I literally just stated to elim Umlaut above.

What I am wanting is people hunt that’s all.

And yes I am not voting Umlaut to ensure that hunting happens.

Also happy birthday Gamma.

[MathBlade]

Sometimes part of being a good Sophie is setting up the mark (scum) to make bad decisions. Think. You asked me to be a Sophie. Put it together.